FatLossForIdiots style copywriting

by 55 replies
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Hello Warriors!

I just got on IM not too long ago and I've heard of the huge success Fatlossforidiots has. There seems to be a lot of kudos to the technique of copywriting on that site, i.e: building suspense and baiting commitment from the reader by asking them to click "next" to get more information. But somehow, we're still seeing a lot of the conventional long scrolling sales letter.

Has anyone here ever tried writing up sales pages using that technique before? Or done a split test, (one page sales letter vs multiple page sales letter)

Which is better? The tried and tested (albeit common) method, or that fatlossforidiots multiple page sales letter?
#copywriting #copywriting #fatlossforidiots #style
  • Screw fatlossforidiots. I wrote fatburningfurnace and the conversion kills the idiots conversion.

    As for your question, this type of writing doesn't work best for all markets. fatloss is one it does work better for. (I'm not going to reveal why, though. I have too many clients in that market.)
    • [2] replies
    • Congrats on your letter producing more than $21,145,924.30 in sales. (That's what FL4I did in 12 months.)
      • [1] reply
    • Did you write their video copy as well? Also, how much would you charge for a similar project like fatburningfurnace? I'm also looking for copywriters for a similar niche.
      • [1] reply
  • Don't make me separate you two!
  • Bruce,

    You could be right... probably are.

    And again... this is only what I've heard. I'm not affiliated with the FL4I guys in any way and have no access to their logs.

    Yet I've heard from numerous (accomplished) affiliates that FL4I converts about a quarter as well as FBF.

    I've heard the current page converts at maybe .5%... which can only make me wonder what it converted at before...

    Of course... this is all just hearsay.

    And although it comes from people I trust... it's still only circumstantial evidence at best.

    Just wanted to share the little bit of knowledge I have about this situation... as I'm one of the people who thinks the FL4I page is pretty woeful.

    -Dan
  • I have no idea if I'm right. I've heard the same thing about the conversion rate, 0.5%. I am just saying that the story doesn't make any sense.
  • What makes FL4I so interesting is that it defies all the rules we traditionally heard about sales pages such as, telling stories, testimonials, etc. Here we have people constantly asking for testimonials to boost credibility and yet FL4I gets away without a before / after pic, testimonials, forum support. There must be something really hypnotic about their copy.
    • [1] reply
    • Flareman,

      the point I was trying to make was that fl4idiots isn't successful because of the copy. It's successful because of the plan.

      You have a market that encompasses every other niche in the world...

      Gamers?... sure, some of them are fat...
      Dog lovers?... some fatties there too...
      Those interested in green fuel?... more than 1 tubby in that group...
      People who get speeding tickets... yep...
      First time mothers... oh god yeah...

      Successful marketers in all these niches were enticed to mail out. Tons of sh*t thrown at the wall... some of it is bound to stick.

      So... nothing "hypnotic" about the copy. The multipage thing does force the reader to "invest" in the reading but that's about it.

      Not only is fatburning written better, many less successful product letters are written better than the idiots one. But in their case it's not about the writing.

      Capice?

      And as for the rumor of a 1/2 point conversion, my sources tell me that number is inflated and maybe it's more like half that amount.
      • [ 1 ] Thanks
      • [1] reply
  • this is basically like magic of making up. Everyone thinks magic of making up is high converting and rocks.. but in truth it sucks ass when there are lots of other products that have better conversions and lower refund rate than this piece of ****.

    Marketted a heck out of it. That's why fl4idiots and magic of making up have stuck on...
  • The thing about FL4I, is that is definitely does convert worse than FBF, Truth About Abs, and The Diet Solution Program. (as an aside, I'd love to hear Vin and other copywriters opinions on the video sales letter that these top 3 products utilize). FL4I produced due to volume, the other 3 products were either non existent or in early stages at this time.

    FL4I claimed they did 21 million in a year. I'm willing to bet that wasn't all front end sales. Some offers have pretty bad front end conversions but great back end processes. It's pretty tough to just look at the numbers and blame copy. And it's also naive to take claims at face value.

    Your copy gives you an advantage but it doesn't make your offer. The offer is everything. The copy can present it in a better light of course.

    And Alex makes a great point, you don't have the benefit of hind sight. Though, I do think FL4I sideways style helps to get the reader to keep reading, not sure if that was on the "21 mill" letter.
  • @Mr. Stuble You're being awfully naive. Vin's clients knew that by hiring a great copywriter, to get great conversions, they bettered their chances of being able to compete with an already well-rooted product like fatloss4idiots.

    ...If I remember right when furnace launched it was more of a soft launch. It's since grown it's daily sales figures many times over what it initially did when "launched".

    For the record FL4I doesn't do as high volume as it once did. Not even as close as you suggest. When re-bills came out full force in early '09 many "super affiliates" moved over to them. And when traffic sources started to ban re-bills they moved to better converting products like Diet Solution and Fat Burning Furnace.

    As someone who hardly ever comes around these parts you come across as either jealous of Vin or you just love picking on him. Either way it comes across as if you're trying to pick a fight - in which you've already lost - especially when you don't have current facts, numbers, etc to back up your statements.
    • [1] reply
    • Chad,

      fbf uses a powerpoint video that is almost a 100% transcription of the sales letter. And by the way... for anyone who cares to keep on top of what we're really comparing here...

      The fbf letter I wrote was never a single page sales letter. It was a multi-page letter. My research told me this was a particularly good niche to try this in. And it had little to do with the idiots' success with it. Not nothing to do with it, I definitely considered their success at the time, but I had other reasons to believe this would work with the particular segment of the market we were aiming at.

      And yeah... that letter converted like crazy and yeah...knocked the the idiots out of the top slot...

      Then my client had this idea for doing the video. He had seen it done once before in another niche and wanted to try it. So we tried it. (He's that kind of client.)

      And we were both surprised when it nearly doubled conversions. That client began making the kind of green I can't even tell you about. I mean crazy monthly sales numbers...

      He never dropped his sales letter. In fact he plans to reinvest in his product again in a few months by having me try a brand new letter to take on the control. And I know he's going with a letter... AND a ppt video of that letter.

      Why? Well... here's a little heads up for anyone who cares... the PPT video is a fad that will die out, probably in 2010.

      This client is a guy who knows his stuff and works his ass off to make this "easy money in his sleep..."

      Edited to add: Out of deference to my client's privacy I want to say that I have no official word that fbf has made any money whatsoever, let alone 7 million per year. I don't know what the official cash results are (if you know what I'm saying).
      • [1] reply
  • Thanks for the reply vin.... Have u taken a look at a lot of the rebill style landers in the weight loss niche? If so, do you feel their success is simply due to using a free trial product or is there some magic in those landers. To me they have lots of textual errors in them and makes me think people read nothing but headlines, sub heads, and offer.

    Imo, as a side note, i always thought it was smart that fl4i slightly hinted at the popular "idiots guide" book series, even using similar fonts and such.....
  • I think sales letter videos with the production quality of movie trailers are the next big thing lol
    • [2] replies
    • Check this one out:

      Leglocker: Toe Hold - Heel Hook - Knee Bar DVD

      (Note - I have NO association at all with the above website)
    • Probably not. (It could be expensive.)

      But a good example of taking PowerPoint to the next level would be something like Andy Jenkins' Video Boss videos. They are, essentially, just PPT videos, but they add visual elements to keep it interesting.

      If you read the trilogy of books by Roy Williams, you'll understand. He talks extensively about exciting the brain (broca's area). It's a good read.

      - John
  • Imagine you were in a courtroom and you had to convince twelve of your peers you were innocent of a crime. Would you use a powerpoint presentation to convey your message? Would you memorize a script and recite?

    No.

    Whatever that "new" process is... is the next big thing.

    - Rick Duris

    PS: Please save the "if the glove doesn't fit..." comments.
  • @MontelloMarketing - congrats on writing the copy for FBF - it does convert very well in my experience & comparing FBF sales (which is targetted towards a more specific niche) to FLI sales is bogus.

    FLI is written for women over 30 (just check their affiliate page where they point out that this is their target demographic) who just want an easy way to lose weight.

    FLI just has a broader marketplace.

    You can't fault the copy writer for the product's taret demographic.
  • I have a product being released that is more targeted at the p90x/insanity workout crowd, i think one format ill test is a slick video style like they have on their sites.... They use a much shorter vid, 90 seconds i think maybe 120.... Its like the segway portion of their 30 minute infomercials... Then there is copy elsewhere on the page. Id like to test that vs a longer produced video, with bullet copy. The latter is what reese said would be the next big thing, equating it to the brochure in old direct mail marketing.

    Though the 2 i mentioned have a strong offline presence too. I think for online the story approach in whatever medium works well, but think kerns first vid for list control promo vs ppt.
  • so heres the thing that i dont get....

    if fbf/ fl4i converts SO POORLY, how are affiliates still pushing this?

    I mean, if you're not making money and doing ad spends, eventually you run outta money right?

    eventually you say F it and move on.

    How are these sites consistently getting FLOODS of traffic if it converts so poorly?

    I mean, damn.... i've got offers doing close to 4%, i guess i need to get my stuff on CB eh?
    • [2] replies
    • fbf converts well. It's the other one that doesn't.

    • It's not that it isn't profitable for some people. I'm sure it is.

      ...Chances are they just haven't bothered split testing since they are profitable and making a few dollars.

      The trend is obvious, though. People are moving on.

      • [1] reply
  • vin, well as in?

    over 1% on paid traffic?
  • http://www.quantcast.com/
  • Thanks, Zach!
  • We sell 5 + copies a day of FBF from a single review page purely from organic.

    The VSL converts like a monster, couple that with some on exits for trials
    and it really is a solid product to promote.

    @ Vin, didn't realize you did the copy on that VSL, there's some parts
    that are considerably different from the old copy, and the old copy was
    pretty good.

    FL4I has had it's day really, it used to be self propelling due to the grav
    all the newbs jump in, waste their $200 on PPC keeping it there.

    Plenty of guys doing it better nowadays between Rob P,
    Jon B, Joel etc.
    • [ 1 ] Thanks
  • Any idea which landing page on FBF converts the best? They offer a few there. I know,test, but just curious on the take. thanks
  • Well... 2010 has come and gone and it's official... I was wrong. PPT videos are not gone. They've been jazzed up a little with graphics but they're still selling pretty strongly.

    I still contend there's something better on the horizon.
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    FatLossForIdiots style copywriting

    Hello Warriors! I just got on IM not too long ago and I've heard of the huge success Fatlossforidiots has. There seems to be a lot of kudos to the technique of copywriting on that site, i.e: building suspense and baiting commitment from the reader by asking them to click "next" to get more information. But somehow, we're still seeing a lot of the conventional long scrolling sales letter.