Feedback on a Site Please

by Harlan
78 replies
Please share your thoughts:

The 30 Day Diabetes Cure

Good, bad, indifferent?

Think it will fly?
#feedback #site
  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    Harlan,

    First thing comes to mind is the word "CURE".

    Is that a red flag to alphabet soup authorities?

    Don't know if it would...has it passed legal inspection ?

    All the best,
    Ewen
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    • Profile picture of the author VanessaB
      Harlan,
      I think it's very good. I would be concerned about the same thing Ewen said, but I'm no lawyer.

      Having known several people who suffer from diabetes and the very things you describe in this letter I would say you've not only hit the right points, and the common answers that aren't working for them, you also have a very appealing layout for a health product. It looks very professional, very properly structured for an 'authority' perspective.

      One thing I didn't like was the box offering the 9 free gifts at the beginning. It seems 'garrish' to me. The colors remind me of a late night cheesy infomercial with the "As Seen On TV" logo. In some cases that would work, but I think the cheesiness of it, takes away from the otherwise impeccable job of building credibility with layout, design and copy on this site.

      Otherwise, a teeny bit slow to load, but that could be me, I'm having to reload WF twice with every click today, and I'm not sure about the lightbox 3/4 of the way down the page, but I would be interested in hearing how that works out.

      Hope that was helpful.


      -Dani
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    • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
      Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

      First thing comes to mind is the word "CURE".

      Is that a red flag to alphabet soup authorities?
      Nope...



      (Note all the "cures" books.) Trudeau only got in deep trouble when he was PIKING his Coral Calcium. It's tough to go after someone exercising his first amendment rights.

      To me it looks like a HOT product. (Hopefully he's not a scam puke like Trudeau.) I'm not crazy about the '05 look of the page layout... but if I had diabetes, I wouldn't think twice about spending $50. Personally I would have used Bottomline's old offer... don't send any money now, just fill out the form, we'll send it to you right away, enjoy reading it for 30 days (and if not delighted send it back) and only then we'll bill you $16.65 a month for 3 months.

      What's his back end?


      .
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  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

    Please share your thoughts:

    The 30 Day Diabetes Cure

    Good, bad, indifferent?

    Think it will fly?
    My feedback:

    The site is painfully slow to load.

    You might want to do something about
    the server because I'm positively sure
    that the slow loading will negatively
    impact the site's conversion.

    - Jag
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Ditto on the slow load. I gave up. Maybe try again later.
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  • Profile picture of the author jbhyip
    The site is super slow. It's been trying to load for me for the past 30sec. I'll try again latter.
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  • Profile picture of the author GR Marketing
    From a copywriting standpoint it looks good, but you've got to be really careful with your claims in the health niche.

    You should get a lawyer to go through it, he'll tear it apart of course, but its still good practice.
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  • Profile picture of the author pr456
    Banned
    I gave up. Maybe try it again later.
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  • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
    I think we can come up with a stronger lead and headline...

    Here's the headline, then explanation comes after...

    Licensed Practising Doctor Says...

    "Give Me Thirty Days, And I'll Completly Reverse Your Diabetes...
    ...I Can Make This Bold Claim Because, 100% Of My Patients Have Ditched Their Drugs...
    ...And Are Back To Living A Happy, Normal Life"

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Explanation, Or Reason Why;

    1 Pre-head. Using one of the most trusted people in society...Doctors. Surveys of who the most trusted people are in society, come up with Doctors and Firemen. Would use picture of a doctor with a white coat and stethoscope for instant recognition. Put it beside headline.

    2 The first 4 words in the headline create further credibility by having the reader do something...in this case give the Doc 30 days.

    3 Using numbers, in this case, 30, to be very specific in giving the reader an exact time frame of the desired outcome. The desired outcome being, reverse diabetes.

    4 Tackles the readers B.S. detector head on by saying, 100% of the doctors patients have ditched their drugs. Once again, using specific numbers to create more believability.

    5 Transitions the reader to picture that, indead, she can see herself living a happier life.
    Always finish on a high note.

    Harlan, just when you thought you could get back to the beach, I'm telling you to get back to work on this...should I be sorry..?

    All the best,
    Ewen






    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

    Please share your thoughts:

    The 30 Day Diabetes Cure

    Good, bad, indifferent?

    Think it will fly?
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    I should think the FTC would have a field day on this one. Especially claims like this - "Able to completely REVERSE diabetes in 30 days or less".

    Officials at the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) say health fraud promoters often target people who are overweight or have serious conditions for which there are no cures, including multiple sclerosis, diabetes, Alzheimer's disease, cancer, HIV and AIDS, and arthritis.
    You might want to read the rest of this FTC page - http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/cons...lth/hea07.shtm


    And more -
    Diabetes Health Fraud

    Over the past year, the Mexico, United States, Canada Health Fraud Working Group (MUCH) has focused enforcement and consumer education efforts on fraudulent products to treat diabetes. In October 2006, MUCH member agencies announced that they had taken nearly 200 compliance actions against companies promoting bogus products that provide false hope to people with diabetes. The compliance actions include Advisory Letters, Warning Letters, and import refusals. Many of the actions are still pending, but some firms have voluntarily removed false claims and discontinued sales of the bogus products.
    Regulatory authorities in Canada and Mexico also released educational materials for consumers and announced the compliance actions they took against bogus diabetes treatments.
    Here are some examples of unproven claims to treat diabetes:
    • Drop your blood sugar 50 points in 30 days, or it's free …
    • Eliminate insulin resistance.
    • Prevent the development of type 2 diabetes.
    • Reduce or eliminate the need for diabetes drugs and/or insulin.
    • Prevent diabetes-related eye disease, damage to cells caused by poor blood sugar control.
    • Take the natural alternative to…the diabetes drug metformin.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    The word cure is an issue when it addresses a specific disease. You could have problems with both the FTC and the FDA. And the AMA loves to blow the whistle and cry fowl on borderline stuff when it threatens their monopoly. If the offer were to become popular you can pretty much expect a challenge.

    Most people with diabetes can get rid of it with the right diet, exercise and lifestyle. I didn't read the whole page but would guess that a combination of these three factors makes up most of the program.

    From what I read it flows well and seems to be credible. Up front you mention that the program is as easy to follow as your car's GPS. I don't know the stats on how many people have a GPS but I'd go with an analogy a bit simpler and less technical as many won’t relate to this at all.

    Good luck.
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      In this case, the copy is selling a book, not a drug, product, or other physical substance. Book claims fall under First Amendment protection. Additionally, the FTC/FDA problems with "cure" relate to structure/function claims, and so don't apply here.

      *Caveat: I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV*

      That said - the word is sure to attract FTC attention. I guess the author (and the author's attorney) believes it's worth the potential hassles and headaches.

      If I were writing this, I'd probably modify it a bit to say something like "Some readers have used the advice in [BOOK] to lower their blood sugar levels by X%/points or more!

      [Blood sugar lowered Testimonials yada, yada]"

      Gets around the whole 'claims' issue while still getting the info out.

      Overall, I found the flow choppy and confusing.

      For example, I immediately skimmed to find the points mentioned in headline which interested me, and couldn't easily locate them. Which gave the whole thing the feel of scam job. For me. Your mileage may vary.

      Also, since this is positioned as a head-to-head against "the leading" medication, I didn't get enough 'proof' in the presentation to convince me. I would have liked to see more 'factual' specifics re: studies etc. Again: for me. Your mileage may vary.

      Since I've written for this market, I admit I'm probably looking at this letter with a slightly more jaded eye than most.

      But in answer to the OP question: "Will it fly?" Chances are this letter will fly fine, just as it is.

      P.S. Like Subtle: Hating on the layout. Really hating. Particularly that horrible Free Report box as soon as you get into the body copy. Garish and distracting.

      P.P.S. Did I mention I hate the layout?
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Despite the crackdown, there are 204 book titles on Amazon that have the words Cure and Diabetes.

      http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...etes&x=14&y=20

      So there is a way around it.

      Maybe the First Amendment for the freedom of speech?

      All the best,
      Ewen
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    I note that the author is an ex psychiatric nurse and has a "doctorate" in naturopathy - not traditional medicine. Seems to me you're misrepresenting him as a doctor. Not a good look. There's a world of difference between a qualified medical doctor and a so-called doctor of naturopathy.
    In the United States and Canada, the designation of Naturopathic Doctor (ND) or naturopathic medical doctor (NMD)may be awarded after completion of a four year program of study at an accredited Naturopathic medical school that includes the study of basic medical sciences as well as natural remedies and medical care. The scope of practice varies widely between jurisdictions, and naturopaths in unregulated jurisdictions may use the Naturopathic Doctor designation or other titles regardless of level of education.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

    Please share your thoughts:

    The 30 Day Diabetes Cure

    Good, bad, indifferent?

    Think it will fly?
    Harlan,

    Did you write this?

    It doesn't look like your work to me.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

      Harlan,

      Did you write this?

      It doesn't look like your work to me.
      Actually I didn't.

      I wish I did.

      Ladies and gentlemen, I want to thank you all for playing.

      I posted this because like all copy forums, it brings out the inner critic in everyone.

      This copy was written by Jim Punkre.

      Don't know the name?

      He's near the top of the "A list". And that letter belongs in your swipe file.

      Now allow me to let you in on a secret.

      That letter converts like crazy. The numbers are off the charts.

      And for all those who think the letter is illegal, you don't know your copy history.

      Subtle alluded to it in his pointing to the use of the word cure.

      You can not use "cure" with a supplement or device.

      But with a book, ANYTHING GOES.

      For example:

      When you sell a weight loss product, it is illegal to make a claim of permanent weight loss.

      But not if it's a book.

      And who was it who sued the government over this?

      Eugene Schwartz who sued and won claiming first amendment freedom of speech.

      Guys.

      Tossing a piece of copy here is like throwing raw meat in the shark tank.

      A bunch of guys did not take the bait and contacted me via PM to ask about it.

      Not every piece of copy here is automatically bad.

      I won't embarrass some of you with your comments.

      Just understand something:

      This is some of the best copy you will ever see.

      Any fault you find in it is in your own eyes.

      "A-list" copywriters account for every single word.

      Punkre's copy should be savored like a fine wine.

      Now go and learn.

      Peace,

      Harlan

      PS. Hope you learned something from this. ;-)
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        PS. Hope you learned something from this. ;-)
        Sure did...thanks.

        Subtle pointed out "Cure" being in book titles, so did some research over at Amazon and reported back the findings.

        So quickly swayed my mind with that knowledge and recalling Eugene winning a case for Constitional free speech.

        Does anybody know if Jim Punkre and Gary Bencivenga competed against each other?

        Results?

        All the best,
        Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Maybe I'm feeling a little ornery this morning because I'm only on my first cup of coffee, but...

        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        Now go and learn.
        ...
        If you intended this post to be a teaching example, then it has been a FAIL.

        Any A-list copywriter worth their salt knows that there's some way even a seemingly invincible control can be beaten - eventually. (For example, see: Wall Street Journal Letter).

        In other words, there is some way, no matter how small, that even a killer control can be improved.

        And any A-list copywriter worth squat will admit that. Including, I'm assuming, Jim Punkre (even though I've never met him).

        Moreover, even A-list copywriters (especially A-list copywriters) aren't always in harmonious agreement as to whether a particular piece of copy is the best damn thing they've ever read.

        If they were, they wouldn't go up against each other's controls all the time. Which they do. All the time.

        If that letter had been written for, say, Rodale, and not by Jim, for Jim, you can bet your bippies that another A-lister would have taken a crack at it.

        There's no such thing as a 'perfect' letter - which is what you seem to be implying this letter is. Even though this letter that is working 'like crazy' for this particular section of the market, that doesn't mean it's going to work for every segment of this market. Or it would be getting 100% conversions.

        (BTW: Got some figures on those 'numbers off the charts'?)

        Now, sure, some of the comments showed that there is confusion about what copy claims you can make under the FTC guidelines. And this post could have served as a really valuable teaching post, had you gone over the copy and pointed out why this or that word was used instead of a different one.

        Nor does it really matter that any 'fault' found resides in the eye of the beholder. Because, y'know, That's Life. People perceive through the lens of their own limitations of knowledge and experience.

        That's not good, or bad. It just, is.

        And one of the purposes of the WF is to help people get better; to open their eyes to new opportunities and ways of doing things, and broaden and increase their base of knowledge.

        So, as you said, not every piece of copy here is automatically bad.

        However, not every piece of copy here is going to resonate with everyone here. And, in the real world, not every piece of copy is going to resonate with everyone. Even if it's been written by an A-lister.

        And, it seems to me, to open a thread requesting comments, with the hidden and express intention of trying to make commentors look (and feel) foolish, ignorant, and incompetent, is not helpful. Nor is it in the spirit of the forum.

        I do think there's a couple of valuable lessons to be extracted here though.

        People who hire copywriters, take heed: Claims that copy can 'force' people to buy your product through the sheer power of the copywriter's genius are bullsh*t. Some people will buy, and some won't. Regardless of who writes the letter.

        Copywriters, take heed: Even A-listers write copy that fails to sway everyone. Sometimes they even write bombs. 'Perfect' sales copy is an illusion. So strive to make your copy as 'perfect' as you can, but don't become discouraged by the fact that your copy can be improved. Every A-lister has written crap they'd prefer had never seen the light of day. You will, too. Pick yourself up, dust yourself off, learn from your mistakes, and you will be that much closer to becoming an A-list copywriter.

        (On a side note about the 'bow-down-and-worship-them-awesomeness-of-A-list-copywriters:

        The Bible is the #1 bestselling book of all time. So, theoretically, I guess you could say that God and his copy cubs are the #1 A-list copywriters of all time.

        Yet, in some markets, even in segments of the market the Bible is aimed at (people seeking information on Judeo-Christian beliefs), the Bible has failed to convert browsers into buyers.)

        Finally, I guess what really struck a nerve with me was the whole 'worship the guru' tone of the concluding response.

        I'm so over the 'untouchable, unquestionable guru arrogance' thing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    I already added it to my swipe file. I know good copy when I see it.

    Not always, but mostly.
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  • Profile picture of the author writeandreview
    I was going to comment that I thought the names,

    1. Dr. Rip (the nickname his patients gave him) ( made me think Dr. R.I.P.)
    2. Jim Healthy - the sig at the bottom

    were kinda funny.

    But, now that the kitten's out of the crawl space, I won't bother
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by writeandreview View Post

      I was going to comment that I thought the names,

      1. Dr. Rip (the nickname his patients gave him) ( made me think Dr. R.I.P.)
      2. Jim Healthy - the sig at the bottom

      were kinda funny.

      But, now that the kitten's out of the crawl space, I won't bother
      Now I wonder what you'd find if you Googled "Jim Healthy"

      Hmmm.
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      • Profile picture of the author writeandreview
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        Now I wonder what you'd find if you Googled "Jim Healthy"

        Hmmm.
        The first name I Googled was Jim Punkre and a site popped up that listed names, bios and photos of most of the top copywriters (Harlan you were in the list.)

        Then I Googled "Jim Healthy" and arthritisinterrupted -- com popped up in the list. On the page "About Jim Healthy" a photo of a J.D. Parker is displayed. J.D. Parker looks a lot like Jim Punkre. (sellingtohumannature -- com)

        I have reached the one and only logical conclusion ...

        Jim Healthy, J.D. Parker and Jim Punkre are a set of direct response writing phenom identical triplets.
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        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
          Just found Jim's bio...

          Impressive reading.

          "His copy for The Doctor's Book Of Home Remedies holds the record for the most mail order books sold, 16 million copies producing more than $400 million in sales for Rodale Publishing.

          Over his award winning career in copywriting, Jim has hauled in more than $5 BILLION in sales for clients such as Time Life Books, U.S. News and World Report, Playboy, Reader's Digest, Prevention, Men's Health, Boardroom Books, Phillips Publishing and a host of others."

          All the best,
          Ewen
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  • Profile picture of the author Harlan
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Any "A-Listers" out there feel confident enough to give me a shot at their control copy?

    I'm getting a little annoyed at the crowing.
    I just spit my coffee out my nose.

    You want a shot at a control?

    Do you know what that means for a big company?

    How much they have to invest in editorial, legal, graphic design, printing and mailing costs to test your masterpiece?

    My kid had his first hockey lesson this morning.

    You think we should start calling NHL teams looking for a tryout?

    Learn a little humility.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Oh please. Try, try to contain yourself, Harlan. I don't play hockey. I write sales copy. Oh, and a small company will do. If I wanted to be a corporate drone, that's where I'd be.

      You don't know who I am or where I've been. and that's cool.

      I just get a little tired of the big me, little you crap you're so fond of dishing out.

      How's that finger-healing thing going, by the way?
      No I don't know you but in a thread about A list copywriters, you wanted a shot at a control.

      The A listers are anything but corporate drones.

      They work on their own time and they are extremely well paid for what they did.

      All of them worked their way up the ranks.

      It's okay if you don't like my style.

      And thanks for asking about mudras (finger healing). It's one of my most successful products ever.

      I'm going to redo the site and offer a new set of symbols based on all the inquires.

      In the direct marketing world, it would be considered a home run.

      Tens of thousands of people write in every day and ask for specific mudras.

      I'm not sure there is one to become an A-list copywriter though.

      Good luck on your journey.
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    Heh as soon as I saw what website you were asking for critique I knew it was a home run. There was no way youd ever need a critique for copy like that, especially not on the warrior forum. The only ones who could improve copy like that are the best of the best. I thought it might of been Makepeaces handy work.

    I have to agree with Harlan, sometimes copy gets critiqued thats actually decent and is made worse after the critiques. I remember one that was basically a story that got chewed apart and the original almost sold me while I was reading it. Im like how bad can it be if I almost bought it?
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  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    100% in agreement with Collette.
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  • Profile picture of the author RentItNow
    I'm actually in this niche as well as an affiliate. It is possible to cure but involves drastic life changes. I am type I and I have been slowly making those changes but it is a battle at times.

    My comment on the copy is the call to action is weak on the page. Needs to be MASSIVE! I'd even test a picture of a meter or something to draw attention to it.

    Oh, also, the site was slow loading so you may want to put the headline above the video so people will not click away too fast.
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    I have no agenda but to help those in the same situation. This I feel will pay the bills.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    I'm a martial arts instructor so I'm going to use an example from that to illustrate my point. I hope no one takes offence as that's not my intention.

    There's a guy in his 20s who believes, with good reason, he's one of the best MMA fighters in the UK. He is good.

    He went to a seminar run by a guy in his 60s. This older guy was the best karateka in the world when he was in his 30s.

    Put it this way, Bruce Lee would have been mince meat if they'd fought. I'm not joking.

    Anyway, even though he'd gone to learn from the guy, the younger guy was arrogant. So the older guy dropped him like a sack of potatoes.

    The youngster got up, called the instructor a bully and walked off. Instead of admitting maybe he had a lot more to learn than he thought.

    The instructor was puzzled. He didn't figure a tough guy like that would just walk off after being decked. He figured he'd want to stay and maybe get better once he realised he wasn't as good as he thought.

    However, the youngster was way too arrogant to admit defeat. And, as a result, he refused to accept that maybe, just maybe, he might actually learn something by swallowing his pride.

    Now, the instructor may not be the best any more, especially at his age, but he still had a lot to teach the youngster. If only he'd humbled himself enough to realise his limitations.

    How does that apply here?

    Well, a control can always be beaten. And they eventually do.

    That does not mean we can't learn from them.

    Face it, they don't even have to be controls. As long as they're better than what we can do, or have done, we can learn from them.

    There's a few comments on here, even from people who have obviously been writing copy for longer than I have, which are completely wrong. I won't point them out, but they're there.

    Harlan has done a good thing by putting up Jim Punkre's copy. And it's exposed a few people's weaknesses.

    That's not a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with being wrong. At least you tried to figure it out.

    If you accept that and realise you can learn from it, you will.

    If you refuse to accept that simple little fact, I'm willing to bet you won't get very far.

    Oh, sure, you may make money. Maybe even a lot of money. But I'm willing to bet you'll never get to the top. If that's what you want.

    Like I said, I mean no offence by this post. I still have so much more to learn, so I'd be the last person to belittle anyone.
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  • Profile picture of the author Hank Rearden
    Finger Healing is a favorite of mine...
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    • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
      I have to say I don't see how this thread turned into a choosing sides situation. I think the letter is an obvious winner no matter who wrote it. Are there things I would have done differently? Sure... but then again I'm not always right either.

      I know this much... if Harlan says it's swipe worthy I'm keeping the letter. Plain and simple... no questions asked. I think you all would be smart to do the same.

      I don't even "swipe" but reading and being inspired by what works is what keeps this game fun for me... and keeps me evolving as a writer.
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        It's not about choosing sides. I said nothing about choosing sides.

        When I see a post that asks for people to comment on a letter and then subsequently 'mocks' them for not giving the 'right' answer, it rubs me the wrong way.

        Time and time again, senior copywriters point out that the key to using a swipe file effectively is to understand why the letters in your swipe file work.

        'It works' is not a teaching point.

        Had this been a thread where the control had been used as an example of how and why the way it was written works, I would have applauded.

        It was not. No 'why' was offered. No explanation = no learning.

        Yet people were instructed to 'go and learn'.

        Learn what? What was 'taught' here? Except that, when asked by a well-known copywriter to comment on a piece of copy, people would be well-advised to not contribute. Or risk being ridiculed.

        Where was the 'learning' offered? That you don't have to - personally - like a piece of sales copy for it to work in its chosen market?

        Wow.

        Copywriting 101 Newsflash.

        A huge problem with the copywriting profession right now is the abundance of people offering copywriting services who have no frickin' idea how to write a decent piece of copy. Of any kind.

        And with all the chest-beating and the good-ol-boy exclusivity, these same people pretend to know more than they actually do. Because if you're not a 6-figure copywriter (or not pretending to be one) then bygawd you're nothing.

        Besides - all they have to do is swipe a control, and everything will magically fall into place, right?

        So now we are assaulted by an avalanche of 'sales letters' with 65-word headlines, liberally adorned with yellow highlighter, and copy that babbles on in overheated adjectives for 47 pages, yet fails to make one cogent selling point.

        And the entire profession gets a bad name.

        Lest you think I have it in for Jim Punkre: I have some of Punkre's letters in my swipe file. And you know what? I LIKE them. I chose them because (a) they were controls, (b) I wanted to dissect them for my own learning, and (c) they made me want to buy.

        This letter was not one of them.

        I really don't know why we're all supposed to worship at the same altars of the same sacred cows. There are millions of people - with pre-diabetic conditions - who Punkre's letter would leave completely cold. If they even read the thing past the headline.

        To not acknowledge that there is a VAST market on whom this kind of writing does not work does nothing more than perpetuate the self-serving copywriting myth that there is only ONE way to write great sales copy.

        Yet should anyone challenge or question The Sacred Names...

        ... the thud of swooning acolyte bodies hitting the ground can be heard for miles around

        ... grown men are overcome by an attack of the vapors that would be the envy of a Victorian virgin

        ... and cries of "Heretic!" and "Traitor" fill the air as the faithful rush to light the execution pyre.

        Sound melodramatic?

        Well so are all the hushed whispers of:

        "Big Name Copywriter wrote it. Question it not. Thus it was written; thus it should always be done."
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        • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
          Originally Posted by Collette View Post


          A huge problem with the copywriting profession right now is the abundance of people offering copywriting services who have no frickin' idea how to write a decent piece of copy. Of any kind.

          And with all the chest-beating and the good-ol-boy exclusivity, these same people pretend to know more than they actually do. Because if you're not a 6-figure copywriter (or not pretending to be one) then bygawd you're nothing.
          Got to agree with you there. There does seem to be a lot of elitism in copywriting, even (especially?) on this forum.

          And, from my experience, it's not usually the proven guys who are behaving like that.

          Isn't that part of the reason why we dislike lawyers so much?

          Are we saying it's okay to have a go at others about something, and then do the same thing ourselves?
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        • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
          First... Collette, I wasn't singling you out. I just saw the thread getting contentious for what I consider no reason.

          Second... I like you Collette, so please don't take this singling out (in this post) as being any sort of personal attack.

          IMO study is study. If someone cares to give reasons, great. If they don't and I'm left to figure it out on my own, oh well. That doesn't stop me from taking it. In fact I often learn more that way.

          I sometimes get a lot more out of it when I have to figure it out myself. My students will tell you I often challenge them in the same way.

          And I must admit I didn't see any ridicule. A little of doc being doc, that's all. We're all different personalities here. Doc enjoys (I assume) watching some who claim expertise, stick their own feet in their mouths. So what? No one gets hurt. If anything it teaches us all that maybe we don't know everything... maybe more learning is what matters.

          All I was saying was take it... be glad to have it handed to you... and learn from it.

          As for the pre-diabetics reaction to the letter, I don't know. I know I am type 2 and my reaction after reading the first 1/3 and deeply skimming the rest was that it was hitting the right buttons for me. And don't we all learn that not everyone is your audience? Don't we all learn that trying to please everyone usually means you please no one?

          Maybe then I'm the target. Maybe it pushes my buttons because my buttons are the ones it needs to push. That's a possibility, no?

          Maybe this letter isn't really for pre-diabetics. Maybe it's for guys like me who stress over their numbers and worry about what the pills are doing to us.

          Maybe it's for men and women who hear from their doctors "eventually all diabetics pancreas' will die which means you'll ultimately need insulin. The only diabetics who don't are those who don't live long enough for the pancreas to give out."

          Maybe it's only meant to speak to us and therefore the flaws others see aren't flaws at all.

          Or maybe, just maybe it's full of flaws but perfection isn't really what's needed here.

          I don't know.

          What I do know is I will learn from this piece. And it's not often Doc introduces a piece of winning copy that I don't learn something from.




          Originally Posted by Collette View Post

          It's not about choosing sides. I said nothing about choosing sides.

          When I see a post that asks for people to comment on a letter and then subsequently 'mocks' them for not giving the 'right' answer, it rubs me the wrong way.

          Time and time again, senior copywriters point out that the key to using a swipe file effectively is to understand why the letters in your swipe file work.

          'It works' is not a teaching point.

          Had this been a thread where the control had been used as an example of how and why the way it was written works, I would have applauded.

          It was not. No 'why' was offered. No explanation = no learning.

          Yet people were instructed to 'go and learn'.

          Learn what? What was 'taught' here? Except that, when asked by a well-known copywriter to comment on a piece of copy, people would be well-advised to not contribute. Or risk being ridiculed.

          Where was the 'learning' offered? That you don't have to - personally - like a piece of sales copy for it to work in its chosen market?

          Wow.

          Copywriting 101 Newsflash.

          A huge problem with the copywriting profession right now is the abundance of people offering copywriting services who have no frickin' idea how to write a decent piece of copy. Of any kind.

          And with all the chest-beating and the good-ol-boy exclusivity, these same people pretend to know more than they actually do. Because if you're not a 6-figure copywriter (or not pretending to be one) then bygawd you're nothing.

          Besides - all they have to do is swipe a control, and everything will magically fall into place, right?

          So now we are assaulted by an avalanche of 'sales letters' with 65-word headlines, liberally adorned with yellow highlighter, and copy that babbles on in overheated adjectives for 47 pages, yet fails to make one cogent selling point.

          And the entire profession gets a bad name.

          Lest you think I have it in for Jim Punkre: I have some of Punkre's letters in my swipe file. And you know what? I LIKE them. I chose them because (a) they were controls, (b) I wanted to dissect them for my own learning, and (c) they made me want to buy.

          This letter was not one of them.

          I really don't know why we're all supposed to worship at the same altars of the same sacred cows. There are millions of people - with pre-diabetic conditions - who Punkre's letter would leave completely cold. If they even read the thing past the headline.

          To not acknowledge that there is a VAST market on whom this kind of writing does not work does nothing more than perpetuate the self-serving copywriting myth that there is only ONE way to write great sales copy.

          Yet should anyone challenge or question The Sacred Names...

          ... the thud of swooning acolyte bodies hitting the ground can be heard for miles around

          ... grown men are overcome by an attack of the vapors that would be the envy of a Victorian virgin

          ... and cries of "Heretic!" and "Traitor" fill the air as the faithful rush to light the execution pyre.

          Sound melodramatic?

          Well so are all the hushed whispers of:

          "Big Name Copywriter wrote it. Question it not. Thus it was written; thus it should always be done."
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          • Profile picture of the author Collette
            Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

            First... Collette, I wasn't singling you out. I just saw the thread getting contentious for what I consider no reason.

            Second... I like you Collette, so please don't take this singling out (in this post) as being any sort of personal attack.
            Mutual, Vin. I didn't take your response as a personal attack. (Wait!!! Did you just reserve the right to launch a personal attack in a different post?!!? :p)

            Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

            IMO study is study.
            Agreed. And heartily endorsed. Far too many wannabes want to skip the 'study' part (and I mean 'study'; not 'read').

            Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

            If someone cares to give reasons, great. If they don't and I'm left to figure it out on my own, oh well. That doesn't stop me from taking it. In fact I often learn more that way.

            I sometimes get a lot more out of it when I have to figure it out myself. My students will tell you I often challenge them in the same way.
            This is where we differ slightly.

            I think, if you have reached a certain level of knowledge, you WILL learn more from figuring it out for yourself.

            However, as we - all too frequently - see from posts in this section of the WF, there is a fair amount of rampant ignorance scampering around.

            Some of that ignorance is arrogant. To the arrogant ignorant, I say, "Pfft!". And "Thpppppt! Thppt! Thppt!"

            However, most of the ignorance displayed here is the result of misinformation, misunderstanding, inexperience, or is just, well... not knowing any better.

            Just throwing a control at someone who doesn't have the tools to evaluate it, is not helpful to them.

            Because all they're going to be able to bring to the party is what they have in the pantry.

            And if your idea of haute cuisine is beans and rice - you're not suddenly going to intuit the complexity of a cassoulet, much less be able to produce one.

            Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

            And I must admit I didn't see any ridicule. A little of doc being doc, that's all. We're all different personalities here. Doc enjoys (I assume) watching some who claim expertise, stick their own feet in their mouths. So what? No one gets hurt.
            Yeah, we disagree here, too. I think it does hurt, in this way:

            I know there are lots of folks who lurk here. I know there are people who don't post because they're afraid they'll look stupid.

            If people are afraid they'll be set up to look stupid by a senior copywriter, we'll have even fewer people posting, asking questions, making suggestions, and just plain contributing to the learning.

            Maybe that's just my personal 'thing' about learning. I'm not real big on not questioning established paradigms, or passively receiving from any Oracle On High.

            I think, if people don't understand why a control is a control, they should feel free to ask the question. And not get a blanket dismissal in response.

            Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

            If anything it teaches us all that maybe we don't know everything... maybe more learning is what matters.
            Couldn't agree more. I preach this fervently from my soapbox in Times Square.

            Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

            All I was saying was take it... be glad to have it handed to you... and learn from it.
            I don't think having stuff "handed to you" is the most effective way to learn. See: mini rant previous.

            Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

            As for the pre-diabetics reaction to the letter, I don't know. I know I am type 2 and my reaction after reading the first 1/3 and deeply skimming the rest was that it was hitting the right buttons for me. And don't we all learn that not everyone is your audience? Don't we all learn that trying to please everyone usually means you please no one?

            Maybe then I'm the target. Maybe it pushes my buttons because my buttons are the ones it needs to push. That's a possibility, no?

            Maybe this letter isn't really for pre-diabetics. Maybe it's for guys like me who stress over their numbers and worry about what the pills are doing to us.

            Maybe it's for men and women who hear from their doctors "eventually all diabetics pancreas' will die which means you'll ultimately need insulin. The only diabetics who don't are those who don't live long enough for the pancreas to give out."

            Maybe it's only meant to speak to us and therefore the flaws others see aren't flaws at all.

            Or maybe, just maybe it's full of flaws but perfection isn't really what's needed here.
            And maybe all of the above are true.

            I grant you, I'm not pre-diabetic (actually, I'm hypo-glycemic, but that's another tale for another day). Still, I could see how this letter could work well for this market. That doesn't mean I have to like the letter.

            Because I think an important learning point is being missed in this little dustup: You don't have to like a control to appreciate why it works.

            To me, the most effective point to be made by posting a 'flawed' control, is to show that an effective sales letter can NOT follow the rigid confines of what a sales letter 'should' be - and still convert gangbusters.

            In this case, as you pointed out, if you're the target, and you are predisposed to respond to this type of copy, it works for you. So this letter is - obviously - perfectly positioned for its intended target. 'Flaws' and all.

            Still, something that gets lost in the WF copywriting section, is that there are people being sold to every day who would NOT respond to the kind of copy so near and dear to IM-aholics.

            Different strokes for different folks.

            And, - dare I say it? - an occasion for learning. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author kcorps
    It took me almost a half minute to load. Too many letters and wordy, the color is unattractive, the information is hard to comprehend.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Anyone that falls for this clown's games is a sucker. If you think he'd actually stoop so low as to ask for a crit on his own letter, you don't know him. His letters are beyond critique... they're legend in his own mind.

    Collette nailed it, as always. She rocks! Collette, are you married?
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    • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      Anyone that falls for this clown's games is a sucker. If you think he'd actually stoop so low as to ask for a crit on his own letter, you don't know him. His letters are beyond critique... they're legend in his own mind.

      Collette nailed it, as always. She rocks! Collette, are you married?
      Yes, she is. So watch it, son.
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    • Profile picture of the author Collette
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      ... Collette, are you married?
      No. I'm working on perfecting my eccentric schtick for a well-deserved crabby old age.

      But, if Lake Louise is in the offing, I could discard my principles for the duration. Because I'm shallow like that.

      That is, so long as your wife doesn't object (or accompany us).

      Still, you have now earned a place in The Swipe Files of My Heart.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by Collette View Post

        No. I'm working on perfecting my eccentric schtick for a well-deserved crabby old age.

        But, if Lake Louise is in the offing, I could discard my principles for the duration. Because I'm shallow like that.

        That is, so long as your wife doesn't object (or accompany us).

        Still, you have now earned a place in The Swipe Files of My Heart.
        I'm honored

        Lake Louise is amazing, as is all of Banff. And of course, staying in the castle is fun.

        Unfortunately, all I can offer today is Bogota, Colombia. I'll be back there in a week.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
        Originally Posted by Collette View Post

        No. I'm working on perfecting my eccentric schtick for a well-deserved crabby old age.
        What!?

        We divorced?

        When?
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        • Profile picture of the author Collette
          Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

          What!?

          We divorced?

          When?
          Dude.

          That night in Bern. Remember?

          As the moon cast its silver light over the River Aare, I told you you'd have to choose - once and forever- between Drayton and me.

          You chose Drayton.

          Like the Phoenix, I flew above the shattered slivers of your fickle perfidy - and left you without a backward glance.

          We both knew that, one day, you'd regret choosing that wizened epitome of money, talent, and fame over the plaintive whispers of your heart's true desire.

          That day is here.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
            Originally Posted by Collette View Post

            Dude.

            That night in Bern. Remember?

            As the moon cast its silver light over the River Aare, I told you you'd have to choose - once and forever- between Drayton and me.

            You chose Drayton.

            Like the Phoenix, I flew above the shattered slivers of your fickle perfidy - and left you without a backward glance.

            We both knew that, one day, you'd regret choosing that wizened epitome of money, talent, and fame over the plaintive whispers of your heart's true desire.

            That day is here.
            I know. I know.

            But... I just have to be the best copywriter in the world.

            And to be the best, you have to work with the best.

            You understand, don't you?
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            • Profile picture of the author Collette
              Alas! The heart knows no reason.

              And Hell hath no fury like a copywriter scorned.
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          • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
            Originally Posted by Collette View Post


            As the moon cast its silver light over the River Aare, I told you you'd have to choose - once and forever- between Drayton and me.

            You chose Drayton.

            Like the Phoenix, I flew above the shattered slivers of your fickle perfidy - and left you without a backward glance.

            We both knew that, one day, you'd regret choosing that wizened epitome of money, talent, and fame over the plaintive whispers of your heart's true desire.

            That day is here.
            Reminds me of "Si tú me olvidas" by Neruda.... nice writing, though the phoenix is overused for that metaphor.

            If You Forget Me by Pablo Neruda

            I want you to know one thing.

            You know how this is:
            if I look
            at the crystal moon, at the red branch
            of the slow autumn at my window,
            if I touch
            near the fire
            the impalpable ash
            or the wrinkled body of the log,
            everything carries me to you,
            as if everything that exists,
            aromas, light, metals,
            were little boats
            that sail
            toward those isles of yours that wait for me.

            Well, now,
            if little by little you stop loving me
            I shall stop loving you little by little.

            If suddenly
            you forget me
            do not look for me,
            for I shall already have forgotten you.

            If you think it long and mad,
            the wind of banners
            that passes through my life,
            and you decide
            to leave me at the shore
            of the heart where I have roots,
            remember
            that on that day,
            at that hour,
            I shall lift my arms
            and my roots will set off
            to seek another land.

            But
            if each day,
            each hour,
            you feel that you are destined for me
            with implacable sweetness,
            if each day a flower
            climbs up to your lips to seek me,
            ah my love, ah my own,
            in me all that fire is repeated,
            in me nothing is extinguished or forgotten,
            my love feeds on your love, beloved,
            and as long as you live it will be in your arms
            without leaving mine.


            Don't know what this has to do with copywriting? Drawing pictures in the mind and pulling at heartstrings IS copywriting.
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            • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
              Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

              Reminds me of "Si tú me olvidas" by Neruda.... nice writing, though the phoenix is overused for that metaphor.

              If You Forget Me by Pablo Neruda

              I want you to know one thing.

              You know how this is:
              if I look
              at the crystal moon, at the red branch
              of the slow autumn at my window,
              if I touch
              near the fire
              the impalpable ash
              or the wrinkled body of the log,
              everything carries me to you,
              as if everything that exists,
              aromas, light, metals,
              were little boats
              that sail
              toward those isles of yours that wait for me.

              Well, now,
              if little by little you stop loving me
              I shall stop loving you little by little.

              If suddenly
              you forget me
              do not look for me,
              for I shall already have forgotten you.

              If you think it long and mad,
              the wind of banners
              that passes through my life,
              and you decide
              to leave me at the shore
              of the heart where I have roots,
              remember
              that on that day,
              at that hour,
              I shall lift my arms
              and my roots will set off
              to seek another land.

              But
              if each day,
              each hour,
              you feel that you are destined for me
              with implacable sweetness,
              if each day a flower
              climbs up to your lips to seek me,
              ah my love, ah my own,
              in me all that fire is repeated,
              in me nothing is extinguished or forgotten,
              my love feeds on your love, beloved,
              and as long as you live it will be in your arms
              without leaving mine.


              Don't know what this has to do with copywriting? Drawing pictures in the mind and pulling at heartstrings IS copywriting.
              I won't tell you again... LEAVE OFF, AWIGHT!!!
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              • Profile picture of the author Collette
                Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

                I won't tell you again... LEAVE OFF, AWIGHT!!!

                Uhhuh. TOLD you you'd be sorry.

                Just remember that as you touch the wrinkled body of the log...
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  • Profile picture of the author Jag82
    I think most of us here are always looking
    to learn more and improve our craft.

    We have our opinions.

    Of course, we may not be always right.

    But even though we may have
    different views on a particular subject, it
    doesn't mean we are not open to learning more.

    After all...in this game...we know that
    at the end of the day...it's cold hard data
    and results that matter.



    That said, here's the thing that gets to me.

    The OP invites critiques. And it looks like
    he wants them badly.

    But it seems to me he just wants to use this as an
    exercise to lure views different from his own
    (surprise! surprise! this is a critique isn't it?)
    ...so that he can "blast" them later.

    I mean...dude..c'mon...

    Okay. Now I know the copy is a control. Now I know
    it's written by Jim Punkre.

    Wouldn't it be better to tell us from the straight
    off instead of playing "games" just to make yourself
    look good later?

    Maybe it's not the OP's intention...but it certainly
    feels like this to me.

    Just saying...

    - Jag
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    • Profile picture of the author Hugh Thyer
      No way! We all see the solution after we've been given the answer.

      Part of the exercise is to work out if it works, and why. If we're spoon fed the answer instead of working it out we'll never improve. Of course, it's so obvious why it works...when someone has pointed it out.

      So thanks Harlan for putting it up. I didn't see you ridiculing anyone who replied. Rather you encouraged it, and then gave us the results of the letter.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jag82
        Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer View Post

        Part of the exercise is to work out if it works, and why. If we're spoon fed the answer instead of working it out we'll never improve. Of course, it's so obvious why it works...when someone has pointed it out.
        Hi Hugh,

        I'm not asking to be spoon-fed.

        But if someone wants to do that,
        I've no violent objections.

        My first impression of that letter is
        that it's obviously written by a skilled
        copywriter.

        While I didn't like liberal use of highlighting,
        and concur with some of Collette's
        comments on sales copy...I still thought
        it's pretty well-written.

        And having now understand that this
        copy is actually a control, it motivates me to
        take a closer study on this letter.


        My only beef was the manner in which the OP
        responded to the critiques he was given...although
        I've nothing against the OP personally.

        - Jag
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        • Profile picture of the author Harlan
          When someone comes to the Warrior Forum and posts a letter for critique, the results are instantaneous and savage.

          Sometimes, the copy is really bad and you guys nail it.

          But sometimes, it's like Pavlov's dogs.

          And the dinner bell rings.

          This was one of those times...

          Getting to the A-list takes years and years of work.

          First you become a copy cub under an A-list guy (or gal).

          Then you work your butt off for years while they critique your work.

          And if you listen, you get better. Way better.

          The first time I wrote a letter for Carlton's critique, I was so arrogant I thought I nailed it. John likes to brag about how he tried to make me cry.

          Looking back at it now. The letter was really bad.

          And when the A-list came calling for me, John said, "Turn it down. You're not ready."

          And I did.

          And then I dealt with the A-list again a few times and I found out, I didn't like writing copy with lawyers and committee people calling the shots.

          John told me stories of battles with Rodale to get them to mail the sex letter.

          I'm not interested in this.

          Before you declare your goal of being on the A-list, ask yourself. Is that what you really want?

          If it is, get to one of the A-list writers and beg to become a copy cub.

          There are no guarantees you'll make it. A lot of people wash out.

          I know of one of my former students who is very close to making it to the A-list. They've been a copy cub for a few years. Today, their copy is outstanding. Far better than mine.

          It took time and it took a lot of unpaid work.

          So if you want to go for it, it's a long road to the top.

          And I wish you strength along your path.

          But be prepared to check your ego at the door.
          Signature

          Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
          Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
          Originally Posted by Jag82 View Post

          My only beef was the way the OP responded
          to the critiques he was given...although
          I've personally nothing against the OP.

          - Jag
          Hey, you can leave me out of the ones who "critiqued" the letter in question.

          Harlan's response to my opinion...and others for and against the letter...was helpfull to me.

          I learnt from Mr Subtle that the word Cure was O.K. in books which was verified by the 200 plus titles at Amazon having it...along with Diabetes.

          Another poster thought one will be targeted by authorities, so checked again...so it meant I needed to do more research.

          And to be at the top of your game, research is good.

          So in real life situations you have to come up with solid reasons why one approach will work over another.

          This whole exercise was good for me.

          Thank you everybody.

          All the best,
          Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce NewMedia
        As a type 2 and a copywriter for a long time, I can honestly say this letter was well-targeted.

        In this rare case, as I was reading/critiquing it, I was actually thinking about ordering it.

        And thats even while knowing there are no miracle cures for diabetes. I was just feeling a connection to the copy and it was pushing the right buttons for me as a diabetic.

        Incidentally, a "pre-diabetic" for the most part does not consider themselves diabetic, so this was not directed at them, imo. You have to have faced that diagnosis by the physician and accepted it to be a real customer for diabetic products.

        I'm glad Harlan posted this. It's a damn good ad.
        _____
        Bruce
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        • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
          Originally Posted by Collette View Post

          "Big Name Copywriter wrote it. Question it not. Thus it was written; thus it should always be done."
          Reminds me of book that was written quite a few years ago, back when men wore sandals

          P.S - I'm kinda with Collette. The OP had the right intention, but the way it belittled other members here was childish.

          There IS a lot of ego in this forum. There IS a lot of patronizing, condesending talk to others. Sometimes it seems well placed (as it can be) and other times it's cringeworthy.

          This tends to fall into the latter.

          Thanks for the example Harlan, glad I didn't reply though... as there would be NO WAY to say the correct answer and win the quiz.

          That's misleading, and unfair. Besides, someone could have told you something that could tweak that copy and increase response even further.

          Oh but wait, that's impossible right? It's the best it can be. It was written by an "A lister" and not even the "Copy cubs" would "get it."

          Here's a headline for your next "magic product":

          "Elitism: it makes your penis bigger."
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          • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
            Originally Posted by Nick Brighton View Post

            Reminds me of book that was written quite a few years ago, back when men wore sandals
            What's wrong with sandals?

            You still sore at me?

            Talk about bearing a grudge.
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            • Profile picture of the author Nick Brighton
              Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

              What's wrong with sandals?

              You still sore at me?

              Talk about bearing a grudge.
              lol. I'm not sore at you - but the sandals are sore at my feet
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    I find it funny how they go bashing the guy who makes all the money trying to teach others something.

    The guy whos copy brings in millions of dollars... they go attack for trying to teach something.

    Real smart.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mary Green
    Harlan seems proud that Punkre wrote this piece, and it is good, however I think we all look at something and notice things we would do differently. If you ask for critiques, that's what you will get. I agree with Collette, all copy can do better, well unless it converts at 100%, but too much is involved for that. It's nice to be proud but to lead people down 'that road' it's just not cool.
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    • Profile picture of the author Hugh Thyer
      Originally Posted by Mary Green View Post

      If you ask for critiques, that's what you will get.
      Harlan didn't ask for a critique. He asked for your 'thoughts'.

      And perhaps by doing so he exposed the non-critical thinking that limits many copywriters. People assumed the question was searching for what was bad about the letter and so could only see fault.

      The question asked for any feedback, good or bad yet so many closed out the possibility that there might be some good to be seen. I hope we all apply far more critical thinking to our clients.
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      • Profile picture of the author Collette
        Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer View Post

        Harlan didn't ask for a critique. He asked for your 'thoughts'.
        Sorry, Mary's right; he did ask for a critique.

        Post#9:

        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting
        Aye, load time is much better.

        I'm not going to critique your work Harlan, (I'm assuming this is yours?) however, a little less yellow highlighting perhaps?

        Frst observation on a skim through.

        Best,


        Mark Andrews...
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        No critique? :-(



        So...
        Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer View Post

        And perhaps by doing so he exposed the non-critical thinking that limits many copywriters. People assumed the question was searching for what was bad about the letter and so could only see fault.

        The question asked for any feedback, good or bad yet so many closed out the possibility that there might be some good to be seen. I hope we all apply far more critical thinking to our clients.
        Granted. And a valuable lesson that would be, too.

        But it still 'tis what 'tis.
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        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
          Yes Collette, he asked Mark Andrews for the critique.

          The original post by Harlan did not ask for a critique.

          All the best,
          Ewen


          QUOTE=Collette;2417625]Sorry, Mary's right; he did ask for a critique.


          Post#9:






          So...


          Granted. And a valuable lesson that would be, too.

          But it still 'tis what 'tis.[/QUOTE]
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          • Profile picture of the author writeandreview
            This one is easy -- "feedback" can be positive or negative. Argument over.

            Harlan asked everyone for positive and negative thoughts ... and (implicitly) to materialize them as comments for all to see.

            Hugh Thyer made an astute observation when he pointed out that there wasn't much (if any) good feedback about the piece.

            However, as a relative newcomer, I have on more than one occasion seen some very positive and helpful comments in the Copywriting section by folks whose skills and style I, in my short life as a part of this forum, respect a great deal. (e.g. most, if not all, of ewenmack's posts, Rick Duris's critique posts are educational, Vin Montello usually provides insight and the list goes on ...)
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            • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
              This does remind us all how we are viwed by newer members and how to treat others.

              Thank you, and stick around so we can get more valuable insights from you.

              All the best,
              Ewen


              Originally Posted by writeandreview View Post

              This one is easy -- "feedback" can be positive or negative. Argument over.

              Harlan asked everyone for positive and negative thoughts ... and (implicitly) to materialize them as comments for all to see.

              Hugh Thyer made an astute observation when he pointed out that there wasn't much (if any) good feedback about the piece.

              However, as a relative newcomer, I have on more than one occasion seen some very positive and helpful comments in the Copywriting section by folks whose skills and style I, in my short life as a part of this forum, respect a great deal. (e.g. most, if not all, of ewenmack's posts, Rick Duris's critique posts are educational, Vin Montello usually provides insight and the list goes on ...)
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              • Profile picture of the author Irish Intuition
                From someone who is new around here, I found this whole thread entertaining.

                We have several people trying to force feed us their opinions.

                I think Harlen got a little carried away, but others got carried away
                as well.

                I appreciated the trickery here. I find it even more interesting that
                those who don't seem to have a lot of experience in copywriting feel
                the need to talk about what could improve the ad.

                The comment about the video being the key to this page's success is
                a little presumptuous... but that's why I like this forum

                There is a lot of chest pounding around here, but that is okay. Some
                of it actually leads to some interesting replies.
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  • Profile picture of the author writeandreview
    This won't be a popular question ...

    But, it's one worth asking.

    My writing colleague and I discussed this thread over coffee. During the course of discussion our conversation moved somewhat obliquely in a philosophical direction ...

    It has nothing to do with Jim Punkre's sales copy or his product. Actually, it has something to do with it, as it spawned the conversation. More correctly, it has nothing to do with Jim Punkre's morality or ethics and everything to do with free speech.

    Here was our question:

    If it is illegal to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there is no fire, should it be legal to yell "Cure!" in the marketplace when there is no cure.
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by writeandreview View Post

      Here was our question:

      If it is illegal to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there is no fire, should it be legal to yell "Cure!" in the marketplace when there is no cure.
      It certainly isn't a problem for major book publishers to use the word, as evidence by the number of book titles at amazon.com.

      So nothing illegal there.

      Next, if you read the promotion in depth, you will see that the doctor says 100% of his walk in patients end up going off their drugs with his methods and a leading university also says it can be done.

      He also says one type of diabetes gets an improvement of 80%...which maybe is the type you imply has no cure.

      I guess it depends which type of diabetes we are talking about.

      The writer does get into specifics between the two.

      All the best,
      Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author writeandreview
        Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

        It certainly isn't a problem for major book publishers to use the word, as evidence by the number of book titles at amazon.com.

        So nothing illegal there.

        Next, if you read the promotion in depth, you will see that the doctor says 100% of his walk in patients end up going off their drugs with his methods and a leading university also says it can be done.

        He also says one type of diabetes gets an improvement of 80%...which maybe is the type you imply has no cure.

        I guess it depends which type of diabetes we are talking about.

        The writer does get into specifics between the two.

        All the best,
        Ewen

        The word "cure" appears 54 times in the copy ...

        Most of the time (50 times, I think) the word "cure" appears as part of the book's title.

        The other appearances are in phrases like this ...

        You'll see who's responsible for suppressing the most effective cure we have for Type 2 -- and why.

        (And to this discerning readers ask -- "As opposed to the most ineffective cure? The least effective cure?" :confused: )

        Most of the time, concerning diabetes, the words used are "reverse" and "improve". These words ...

        are probably accurate descriptions of what this book can deliver. (As we all know Type 2 diabetes doesn't have a cure.)

        Jim Healthy is a smart guy who has obviously done his research. This is why these words were chosen.

        Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

        It certainly isn't a problem for major book publishers to use the word, as evidence by the number of book titles at amazon.com.

        So nothing illegal there.
        Agreed. If it were illegal, legal staff at the big publishers would prevent the usage.

        Perhaps, it's just a matter of time until folks promoting a "cure" are expected to present one. And that, is the heart of our original question.

        I believe, and this is where my colleague and I differ, that the onus of discernment should be on readers and buyers and the government should tread lightly.

        She believes publishers and copywriters can be both forthright and persuasive and that the government should provide oversight.

        We're curious to know what everyone else thinks.
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        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
          [QUOTE=writeandreview;2417466]

          Jim Healthy is a smart guy who has obviously done his research. This is why these words were chosen.

          --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

          Jim pores over more new research findings that would make a general practioner doctor look like he's at pre-school days!
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    • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
      Originally Posted by writeandreview View Post

      If it is illegal to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theater when there is no fire, should it be legal to yell "Cure!" in the marketplace when there is no cure.
      How do you know there's no cure?

      I'll bet there's a cure for EVERY disease known. But the pharmaceuticals won't want us to know that as it's not in their interest.
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      • Profile picture of the author writeandreview
        Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

        How do you know there's no cure?

        I'll bet there's a cure for EVERY disease known. But the pharmaceuticals won't want us to know that as it's not in their interest.
        Big pharm conspiracy theories aside (some of which I happen to subscribe) I got the factoid from the Mayo Clinic.

        The point is that the book being promoted does not provide a cure nor does it seem to claim to. Only the title contains the word "cure".

        A lawyer friend of mine ...

        may be able to shed some light on why the word "cure" is used so sparsely in the copy and never in any direct relation to what the book delivers.
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  • Profile picture of the author acidophulus
    I am new to forum. How do you even start a new thread? Can anyone give info on that. Hope this gets read.

    I am looking for feedback on landing page. My first one. I am trying to build a niche site. Anyone want to take a look. Also how much do copywriters go for.? yeastfreedietsguide.com

    The goal is to get them to opt in for mini course. Is it too long, too short, boring or hold interest.

    Are pop-up opt in good? for they annoy the heck out of me when I see them. They are like little bugs that show up and I just want to find the X and get it out of my face. But if it is most effective and will get opt ins I will change it. Thanks for any help
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  • Profile picture of the author Caetano
    I skimmed through it and noticed that the sub heads didn't reveal an accurate picture of the product. I tend to do this a lot with sale sletter and if I can immediately see how the product will benefit me and how it will take away my problems, I then decide to start reading.

    My advice... review your sub-heads and place your best sales points since many readers will skim through...

    Sub heads such as "Is this too good to be true" doesn't reveal any benefit to people like me (skimmers)

    Hope this helps
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    • Profile picture of the author Irish Intuition
      Originally Posted by Caetano View Post

      I skimmed through it and noticed that the sub heads didn't reveal an accurate picture of the product. I tend to do this a lot with sale sletter and if I can immediately see how the product will benefit me and how it will take away my problems, I then decide to start reading.

      My advice... review your sub-heads and place your best sales points since many readers will skim through...

      Sub heads such as "Is this too good to be true" doesn't reveal any benefit to people like me (skimmers)

      Hope this helps
      It seems you have skimmed through this thread as well.

      You do know this page was a 'winner', right?
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