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Advise for a Copywriter Wannabe

by True North
29 replies
Advice for a Copywriter Wannabe

Please teach me.

I am a Filipino writer and an editor. However, my main background is on print media. I wrote and edited articles for books, magazines, journals, and newspapers. I can say that this background made me very careful on what I write. With print media, you cannot commit an error without suffering severe consequences. So I learned to be careful with my words and my grammar.

It was only in May, when I resigned from a stable job as Senior Editor for a writing company in Makati City, Philippines, to try writing online. A fellow warrior, edpudol1973, encouraged me to be a member of this forum and study how to write online. I never regretted being a member of this forum.

I am very interested in copywriting. I know I can write excellent content articles with my background, but I also know that I need a lot to learn when it comes to copywriting. Can someone here teach me how to write copies?

I have a copy of Rezbi's free ebook on copywriting and I want to try writing a copy using the principles I learned from that ebook. Is there anyone here who can give me a chance to write a copy for him/her using Rezbi's tips for free? All I will ask from him/her is to advise me on how to improve what little I know about copywriting as I write a copy for him/her.

This way, I will learn, and the person will have a free copy for his site. Moreover, the outcome will be an ideal copy for that person, because he/she will tell me exactly what he/she expects from a copy.

These are the things I do not know about copywriting:
1. Is the layout the copywriter's concern or someone else's?
2. Who decides the font sizes and colors?
3. Are images necessary? Who will provide the pictures, just in case?
4. And many more...

Please help me become a copywriter like you. Thanks.
#advise #copywriter #wannabe
  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
    I am very interested in copywriting. I know I can write excellent content articles with my background, but I also know that I need a lot to learn when it comes to copywriting. Can someone here teach me how to write copies?
    There's plenty of people on here who could teach you about copywriting. But to start with you'll be far better off buying a few books from the sticky thread. Start with Dan Kennedy and Joe Sugarman.

    I have a copy of Rezbi's free ebook on copywriting and I want to try writing a copy using the principles I learned from that ebook. Is there anyone here who can give me a chance to write a copy for him/her using Rezbi's tips for free? All I will ask from him/her is to advise me on how to improve what little I know about copywriting as I write a copy for him/her.
    That's a very, very big ask. For now, you want to read as much popular fiction and watch as much popular TV as possible to get your level of English where it needs to be - at the moment you're way too formal. And of course, study the science of copy.

    1. Is the layout the copywriter's concern or someone else's?
    It depends. Some copywriters submit their copy as a plain Word file (usually with layout suggestions) and others will give the client a formatted HTML page. Personally I prefer to hand over a finished HTML page to ensure the client doesn't mess anything up.

    2. Who decides the font sizes and colors?
    Same as previous answer.

    3. Are images necessary? Who will provide the pictures, just in case?
    Images aren't always necessary, but it's always a good idea to have at least a photo of the seller and a picture of the product. These should be supplied by the client, but can be suggested by the writer.

    4. And many more...
    Feel free to keep them coming.
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  • Profile picture of the author True North
    Thanks Andrew for being so helpful. Yes, you are right, my English is too formal for copywriting. Thanks for the suggestions. I will look for those ebooks now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
    Sorry, I should've given you the links:

    Amazon.com: The Ultimate Sales Letter: Attract...Amazon.com: The Ultimate Sales Letter: Attract...
    Amazon.com: The Adweek Copywriting Handbook: The...Amazon.com: The Adweek Copywriting Handbook: The...
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  • Profile picture of the author True North
    I was about to ask, thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author True North
    I have a copy of the two books. I will read them now. Thanks a lot Andrew.
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  • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
    Read the Dan Kennedy one first, he provides a good overview of all the elements of a sales letter.
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    • Profile picture of the author Treborrevo
      Hey, True North...

      Here's some more thoughts on becoming a copywriter:

      Your English may be a little formal - but its great. Better than many of my American entrepreneur clients actually.

      The biggest obstacle to your becoming a copywriter will probably not be your English style. It will be you ability to make the leap from an informative writer to a sales writer.

      In my opinion (and I may be wrong) the style of a writer isn't as important as the selling ideas that are being written about.

      Learning the difference between features and benefits, learning to build a persuasive argument, learning how to agitate the pain, when to move to solutions, when to add proof, when to admit a flaw in the product, when to handle an objection, etc are all more important than your writing style.

      And very important, especially if you are not coming from a persuasive writing background, is to start handwriting out proven sales letters/web copy.

      That will drill the cadence, persuasive flow and sales instincts into you. I still do it after 20 years of writing out copy - and I still learn from it. Not only will it help you make the leap to being a sales writer - it will help with the formality of your style as well.
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      • Profile picture of the author True North
        Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post

        The biggest obstacle to your becoming a copywriter will probably not be your English style. It will be you ability to make the leap from an informative writer to a sales writer.
        You are right. My background is primarily writing informative articles. I was a college professor and I think that weighs heavily on my writing style.

        Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post

        Learning the difference between features and benefits, learning to build a persuasive argument, learning how to agitate the pain, when to move to solutions, when to add proof, when to admit a flaw in the product, when to handle an objection, etc are all more important than your writing style.
        These are gems. What you put here in a few words are what I am gaining now as I read Dan Kennedy's book. I will remember these truths.

        Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post

        And very important, especially if you are not coming from a persuasive writing background, is to start handwriting out proven sales letters/web copy.

        That will drill the cadence, persuasive flow and sales instincts into you. I still do it after 20 years of writing out copy - and I still learn from it. Not only will it help you make the leap to being a sales writer - it will help with the formality of your style as well.
        I will try this. Thanks a lot, Treborrevo.
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  • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
    I disagree.

    Don't read any books by the so-called "Copywriting Gurus." It's all garbage and hype designed to further their reputations and it will only cloud your judgment and creativity as you attempt to mimic the styles and techniques used by others.

    If sales and copywriting do not come natural to you, here's what you should do to sell in print or online (assuming your offer doesn't suck).

    1. Analyze your past sales experience - ask yourself, what worked and what didn't?
    2. Know your product and services inside and out.
    3. Figure out why it "hurts" people NOT to have your product.
    4. Figure out what the top 10 "buyer anxieties" are for your products/service.
    5. Use your most effective sales technique (refer to #1) to eliminate your potential customer's anxieties (refer to #4) while adding value to the product (refer to #3).

    Never stray from this formula and you will become rich like me. =]
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

      Don't read any books by the so-called "Copywriting Gurus." It's all garbage and hype designed to further their reputations and it will only cloud your judgment and creativity as you attempt to mimic the styles and techniques used by others.
      Sorry, I don't agree with you. There are a lot of great copywriters that you can learn both technique and tactics from without copying their style.

      Creativity has little to do with copywriting skill either. The more creative or clever that you try to get with the copy, then more likely it is to bomb.

      As the late John Caples once said "Times change, people don't."

      People have the same emotional hot buttons and triggers today that they did 100 years ago. They'll have the same hot buttons and triggers 100 years from now.

      True North, you need more grounding in sales training and copywriting fundamentals. Grab some of the recommended copywriting titles in the sticky thread. I'd also grab some sales training books from either Jeffrey Gitomer or Tom Hopkins from Amazon. You can get some solid books on copywriting and sales training that way for less than $100.

      True North... instead of offering to write a salesletter for someone else for free... write a few for your own business.

      Pick a few Clickbank products that have lousy salesletters and write a new version as an affiliate. Drive some free traffic to your salesletter and make some affiliate commissions for your trouble.

      Hope that helps,

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
    Quick advice for you North...

    Don't listen to anyone who lists themselves as the #1 Copywriter of all time with only 3 million in sales in 4 years... especially when a sales letter I wrote has delivered an average of nearly $5 million a year for the last 2 years... and I'm not even #1 in my own time!
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

      Quick advice for you North...

      Don't listen to anyone who lists themselves as the #1 Copywriter of all time with only 3 million in sales in 4 years... especially when a sales letter I wrote has delivered an average of nearly $5 million a year for the last 2 years... and I'm not even #1 in my own time!
      Oh man, I was waiting for that.

      Ewen
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    • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
      Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

      Quick advice for you North...

      Don't listen to anyone who lists themselves as the #1 Copywriter of all time with only 3 million in sales in 4 years... especially when a sales letter I wrote has delivered an average of nearly $5 million a year for the last 2 years... and I'm not even #1 in my own time!
      Sounds a bit hypocritical coming from someone who lists themselves as the Godfather of Persuasion, don't you think? =P

      Here's the bottom line...
      Anyone can write a sales letter that generates tons of leads (it's easy as hell). It's even easier when good sales people receive the leads and close them. Make sure you understand that.

      Example, "Buy One, Get One Free! FORD F-150 Trucks"

      Sure, that copy will generate a hell of a big response and result in millions of sales if promoted regionally (or just about anywhere). That doesn't mean you are any good.

      I closed my millions with each customer, in person or by phone. No help.

      Later.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        Here's the bottom line...
        Anyone can write a sales letter that generates tons of leads (it's easy as hell).
        If that were true, then in demand copywriters wouldn't command 4-5 figures plus royalties for their help.

        It's even easier when good sales people receive the leads and close them. Make sure you understand that.
        That's only true if you're doing a lead generation piece combined with some type of call center or salesforce.

        Example, "Buy One, Get One Free! FORD F-150 Trucks"

        Sure, that copy will generate a hell of a big response and result in millions of sales if promoted regionally (or just about anywhere). That doesn't mean you are any good.

        That's an example of a strong offer. It has zero to do with copywriting skill.

        I closed my millions with each customer, in person or by phone. No help.

        Later.
        So you know how to do face to face closing.

        Big deal.

        Hire a call center and give them a well-written sales script and they will close more leads per day than any one person could do. Companies like Ticketmaster do it all the time and make millions every month.

        Show me an ad you've written that done six or seven figures in direct sales (no closing in person or by phone) and then I might be impressed.
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      • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
        Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

        Sounds a bit hypocritical coming from someone who lists themselves as the Godfather of Persuasion, don't you think? =P
        No... I don't think.

        Do you know the meaning of the word hypocritical? If you do, then you don't think I'm being hypocritical either.

        I have a nickname... one I didn't come up with. You on the other hand either blatantly lied about being #1... or actually believe it.

        Either way, writing copy that produces 3 million in 4 years... damn, I've got students of mine doing better than that.

        I'm not going to go any further in this thread. It's not worth the time. Just had to come in and point out the obvious.

        Ooh... wait a minute... I got it...

        The rules keep changing. Has someone added a ton of numbers that are higher than #1?

        That must be it. There have to be higher numbers to account for guys like Carlton, Makepeace, Garfinkel, Sugarman, Bencievenga... and man... I haven't even gotten to the guys who are dead!

        Or maybe I'm just not down with the lingo the kids use. Is #1 really something else? You know, like how sometimes "bad" means "good".

        Or... hold on... Ashton, is that you? Am I being punk'd?

        Um... I think that's it. Now I'm done.
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        • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
          Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing View Post

          No... I don't think.

          Do you know the meaning of the word hypocritical? If you do, then you don't think I'm being hypocritical either.

          I have a nickname... one I didn't come up with. You on the other hand either blatantly lied about being #1... or actually believe it.

          Either way, writing copy that produces 3 million in 4 years... damn, I've got students of mine doing better than that.

          I'm not going to go any further in this thread. It's not worth the time. Just had to come in and point out the obvious.

          Ooh... wait a minute... I got it...

          The rules keep changing. Has someone added a ton of numbers that are higher than #1?

          That must be it. There have to be higher numbers to account for guys like Carlton, Makepeace, Garfinkel, Sugarman, Bencievenga... and man... I haven't even gotten to the guys who are dead!

          Or maybe I'm just not down with the lingo the kids use. Is #1 really something else? You know, like how sometimes "bad" means "good".

          Or... hold on... Ashton, is that you? Am I being punk'd?

          Um... I think that's it. Now I'm done.
          You've got some major insecurities my man.

          If I added up all the "sales" I've contributed to/generated over the years the numbers would be insane.

          You don't sell anything ...ego-sensitive people such as yourself think that "if my copywriting generates $5 Million in sales" that you have actually made the sales yourself.

          Guess what, YOU HAVEN'T SOLD ANYTHING. You wrote a letter that someone else used to generate leads. THE CLIENT MADE THE SALE, NOT YOU. It's their products, services, offers, websites, and sales team. Get over yourself.

          Unlike you, I don't screw with sales numbers to make it appear as if I've sold $500 Billion worth of Mighty Putty...

          I consider myself the #1 Copywriter of All-Time because my talent is unparalleled and I believe it. Am I actually #1? Obviously, that is a completely subjective statement and only an insecure person would fail to realize that up front.

          I'm done with you, good luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author True North
    @ Funwithchris
    I appreciate your ideas and I will consider them. However, at the moment, I need some basics to learn the ropes of copywriting. The transition from informative to persuasive style is the challenge I think I must conquer.

    @ Mike
    I will look out for those books by Jeffrey Gitomer and Tom Hopkins at Amazon. I just want to take a bite at a time. I just got curious about those "hot buttons". Can you explain further? (Or I will get across them as I continue reading the books?)

    Thanks to you, guys.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by True North View Post

      @ Mike
      I will look out for those books by Jeffrey Gitomer and Tom Hopkins at Amazon. I just want to take a bite at a time. I just got curious about those "hot buttons". Can you explain further? (Or I will get across them as I continue reading the books?)
      Hot buttons is a copywriting/marketing term that you'll come across numerous times in your upcoming studies. Some of the better sales training books and materials also cover it.

      Basically, a hot button is one of the primal reasons why people buy a product.

      For example, one of the biggest reasons people buy IM products is because they want to make more money. If you can tell the prospect how the product can make them more money, then you capture more of their attention... maybe even get their order.

      That's the really simple explanation. Joseph Sugarman does a nice job going over hot buttons (or triggers as he calls them) in his Adweek book and his Triggers book.

      Hope that helps,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author True North
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        Hot buttons is a copywriting/marketing term that you'll come across numerous times in your upcoming studies. Some of the better sales training books and materials also cover it.
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        That's the really simple explanation. Joseph Sugarman does a nice job going over hot buttons (or triggers as he calls them) in his Adweek book and his Triggers book.

        Hope that helps,

        Mike
        These really help Mike. Thanks a lot.
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  • Profile picture of the author True North
    @MontelloMarketing
    Wow! $5M a year! That's amazing. Thanks for the motivation. I will keep that in mind. For the meantime, back to the ground; I don't yet have wings to fly.
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  • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
    No need to get defensive, we're all experienced and working towards the same end game here. Let's help the new guy instead of starting a pissing contest.
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    • Profile picture of the author SEOJohn
      Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

      No need to get defensive, we're all experienced and working towards the same end game here. Let's help the new guy instead of starting a pissing contest.
      As a newbie on this forum I have to say: Thanks!
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    I consider myself the #1 Copywriter of All-Time because my talent is unparalleled and I believe it.
    Claims without proof are just hype. I thought the #1 copywriter of all time would know that. Maybe you can get away with hype because you're the greatest of all time.

    What I'm curious about is your time management skills...

    How do you manage to make those millions in personal sales AND find the time to do the $80 sales letters you advertise in your sig?

    To anyone looking to hire a copywriter, you can hire the greatest of ALL TIME for a mere $79...

    That makes complete and total sense to me, I don't see any holes in that story at all.

    -Scott
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    Over $30 Million In Marketing Data And A Decade Of Consistently Generating Breakthrough Results - Ask How My Unique Approach To Copy Typically Outsells Traditional Ads By Up To 29x Or More...

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  • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
    I work F/T for a national ad agency. Lots of connections with Inc. 500 companies and the sort...even do some work with clients in London these days. The website just went up two days ago as a "freelance" endeavour to help the little guys (way less stressful and much more interesting!). And sales letters are not $80!

    The average sales letter takes me 30 to 90 minutes to write from scratch. I'm demanding hundreds per hour for most work.

    All the best!
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Originally Posted by FuNwiThChRiS View Post

      I work F/T for a national ad agency.
      Are you referring to the print company you work for Chris...or have you left there?

      Ewen
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  • Profile picture of the author Treborrevo
    I should know better than responding - but need to point out obvious...

    <quote>"You don't sell anything ...ego-sensitive people such as yourself think that "if my copywriting generates $5 Million in sales" that you have actually made the sales yourself.

    Guess what, YOU HAVEN'T SOLD ANYTHING. You wrote a letter that someone else used to generate leads. THE CLIENT MADE THE SALE, NOT YOU. It's their products, services, offers, websites, and sales team. Get over yourself."</quote>

    Ummm...

    If Vin wrote a letter that was a SALES letter, not a lead gen letter, then he in fact did sell $5 Mil himself.

    I have a letter that's generated the leads that sales people have sold about $2 Mil in sales a year from for about 5 years. In that case, I sold people on raising their hands and teed up the sales for the sales people.

    On the other hand, I've got an offline letter a client mailed that created $395.000 in credit card orders in 2 weeks. The sales people didn't touch it. In that case, I made the sales.

    The fact it wasn't "my product" had nothing to do with the fact I sold the product. That's just, well, a silly argument.

    The magic of copywriting is that it is "salesmanship multiplied" to quote a dead guy that first defined advertising.

    And it is that magic that True North wants to harness.

    True - pay attention to the books. The ones that have been recommended to you are written by MASTERS, not "so called gurus". John Caples in his "Tested Advertising" distilled over $50 million in tested advertising lessons over 40 years into a book. That book has formed the basis of what most folks know about headlines and testing today. One would not be wise to ignore it and just go it alone. Unless you want to be stuck writing $80 sales letters the rest of your life.

    By the way, if you want to hand-write a great personal promotion letter - go out and copy Vins. Great example by Great writer.
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    • Profile picture of the author True North
      Originally Posted by Treborrevo View Post

      And it is that magic that True North wants to harness.

      True - pay attention to the books. The ones that have been recommended to you are written by MASTERS, not "so called gurus". John Caples in his "Tested Advertising" distilled over $50 million in tested advertising lessons over 40 years into a book. That book has formed the basis of what most folks know about headlines and testing today. One would not be wise to ignore it and just go it alone. Unless you want to be stuck writing $80 sales letters the rest of your life.
      Thanks a lot for your help. I will do your advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author FuNwiThChRiS
    Let's not beat a dead horse here...we are coming from very different angles and professional experiences. I'm sure these differences give us each unique strengths and weaknesses as writers. That being said, I respect everyone's abilities here (that's why I joined up) and know that there is a lot of good information here in many different forms.

    I hope I can contribute from my end, we are all on the same team at the end of the day.

    Good luck to everyone (and the newbie =P)

    Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author commonjoe
    There are tips and writing numerous tricks that can be learned from books and courses. And there is nothing like having a great mentor. But the true art of writing comes from years and years of practice.
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