Test, Test, Test! Ya, I know, but is anyone actually doing it?

25 replies
I've always found it funny how many people spout out "You need to test!" but I rarely ever see evidence of anyone testing. Even more rarely do I see testing evidence shared.

Sometimes I fear "You need to test" has become just a different way to say "I don't know."

"You need to test" can also be a cop out. You can learn a lot about what works just by looking and modeling your business after other successful marketers/companies. Or by doing a statistical analysis of what successful businesses have in common.

I'm all for testing and probably do more than most people (including for every client I write copy for). So I respect the need to test.

But that said, I think stating "You need to test" can actually be the WRONG answer when there's plenty of evidence already pointing in one direction.

Testing may always be the final answer, but modeling success should often be the first step.

Cheers,
Stephen Dean
Copywriter
#copywriter #testing
  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    Hey Stephen

    I agree with you. I'm curious though... you say, "but I rarely ever see evidence of anyone testing".

    Split testing is done "behind the scenes". You're not supposed to be seeing where a person's testing

    I think the Number #1 reason why the bulk of people still aren't testing is because they're not generating enough traffic and therefore sales. You can't do a particularly effective split test on 50 sales - you need hundreds to start getting good data.

    However, that's not really a good excuse. I wrote a free report a while back, on how people can split test even with just 10 visitors a day (I really need to update it):

    How To Split Test With 10 Visitors A Day

    Why everyone isn't doing this is beyond me.

    But split testing the finer elements of a sales page, i.e. 2 bonuses instead of 3, requires lots of sales, and I suspect people don't do it because they don't have the sales.

    For these people, modelling success is indeed a great first step... although there are other things they can be split testing, until they start getting the sales.
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
      Originally Posted by Paul Hancox View Post

      Hey Stephen

      I agree with you. I'm curious though... you say, "but I rarely ever see evidence of anyone testing".
      When I read discussions on the Warrior Forum trying to answer questions that really do need to be tested, I see a lot of people saying "you need to test" but I rarely see test results being shared.

      I can understand not sharing test results... but I can't even pick up a hint from their words that many people have tested, well, anything. Except for you Mr. Paul "10% Conversion Rate" Hancox

      (I assume many people in the copywriting forum test as well.)

      I certainly understand why many people find it hard to test. That's part of what has me so frustrated.

      Another forum thread keeps suggesting "you need to test" as they simultaneously seem to be throwing out the idea of modeling.

      Cheers,
      Stephen Dean
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      • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
        This is a really good question.

        Sure, it's a great idea, but it's expensive and time consuming, and where in the process of copywriting shoudl the split-testing be done?

        I can see giving the client a few extra headlines and/or make suggestions for the offer and/or the price etc. so that they can split test it.

        But to work in split-testing while you're writing copy for a client seems hard to do unless you get paid well into the 4 figures AND there is plenty of time...

        Somewhere, I find that there's a catch-22.

        I really appreciate Paul's download on split testing with low numbers. This can help, especially with my own site.

        Conversion of my stress management product went up dramatically after I added a hypnosis Audio I got the rights for...

        So my next enhancement I'm going to do is adding audios... at least on (some of) my own sites...

        Elisabeth
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        • Profile picture of the author Benjamin Johnson
          Sad but true: From what I've seen personally, few Internet marketers bother to run split-tests on sales pages, including offers that are getting a ton of traffic. Here are my own hunches about why this is the case...

          Part of this may be a symptom of what I'll call "launch fatigue" -- after the sheer exhaustion of getting all the countless pieces of a launch together, adding split-tests to the sales page could just seem like the last straw.

          Other marketers whose traffic is coming in large part from JV partners may not feel comfortable experimenting on somebody else's dime (this is where internal launches before a general rollout can come in handy).

          And others may be put off by the technical aspect of running tests and crunching the stats. In actual fact, a simple A/B split in GWO... maybe A/B/C if you want to get fancy... is usually all that would be required, but all the talk about multivariable Taguchi testing and statistically valid samples can lead to math class flashbacks.
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  • Profile picture of the author GlennaG
    Split testing is not hard (although many people believe it is) but it can be tedious...especially if you don't have a feel for what people's hot buttons are. I actually learned a lot from Karon Thackston that put split testing copy into perspective for me and finally made sense. However, I happen to agree with Benjamin here when he says that marketers tend to tire and don't want to put in the extra effort to follow through with the testing.

    I certainly don't get excited about testing, even though that sure would make it easier!! And, unfortunately, still view it as a necessary evil. If I could figure out a way to make it fun, I'd be set!
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  • Profile picture of the author Matt MacPherson
    I feel the same way. It's the "right" thing for people to say. I opened a thread on video sales letters for instance and I knew I would get a million and one responses saying "test test test". Obviously I know it's something I needed to test but there is no harm in finding out what other peoples experiences were.

    I did end up testing video on one of my sales pages. The results were minimal. Actually, there was no change at all, after 150 conversions. So I reverted back to the original and decided to split test something else.

    So yes, there are some of us out there that do test. And Paul H is correct. The reason most people don't test is because of a lack of traffic. Which is understandable. The trick? Use a different conversion metric besides sales.

    Cheers,
    Matt
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    • Of course I get the idea that testing different headlines, subheads and offers is a wise thing to do.

      It might be easy enough on the net

      But for me "testing" is a nightmare.

      Because most of my stuff is in print - so testing is wickedly expensive.

      The most I can do - is a split test on a sales letter or an Ad.

      And somehow in someway one of them has to work.

      Even if I could test and test and "bump" the response by 10% - the added costs would outweigh it.

      It's so frustrating to hear some writers say - I changed a "word", "graphic"... this, that or the other...and the response increased by gazillions.

      I "itch" to try it - but never get the chance.

      Clients would be "confused" if I gave them 17 different versions of the promo - and said "lets do all of these."

      I live with the consolation - that if I did continually "test", "test" and "test" - each copywriting gig would become never - ending.

      So I just have to do everything I can to get it right first time.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Originally Posted by Steve Copywriter View Post

        It’s so frustrating to hear some writers say – I changed a “word”, “graphic”… this, that or the other…and the response increased by gazillions.

        I “itch” to try it – but never get the chance.

        Clients would be “confused” if I gave them 17 different versions of the promo – and said “lets do all of these.”

        I live with the consolation – that if I did continually “test”, “test” and “test” - each copywriting gig would become never - ending.

        So I just have to do everything I can to get it right first time.
        Steve, one way you can scratch this "itch" is to do your own info-products. Even if it's only one info-product of your own, you can do testing on your own salesletter.

        Take what you learn from your big (or little) test results and use it to deliver better converting copy for your clients.

        Hope that helps,

        Mike
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        • Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

          Steve, one way you can scratch this "itch" is to do your own info-products. Even if it's only one info-product of your own, you can do testing on your own salesletter.

          Take what you learn from your big (or little) test results and use it to deliver better converting copy for your clients.

          Hope that helps,

          Mike
          Mike,

          That is a great idea.

          Many Thanks,

          Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
      Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson View Post

      I opened a thread on video sales letters for instance and I knew I would get a million and one responses saying "test test test". Obviously I know it's something I needed to test but there is no harm in finding out what other peoples experiences were.
      Exactly. "You need to test" has jumped the shark. At one time it was insightful and now it's become cliche. And if more people tested, we'd have more tips to share rather than repeat the same ol' mantra.

      Originally Posted by Matt MacPherson View Post


      The trick? Use a different conversion metric besides a sales.
      Yup, quite brilliant. I believe some testing software first uses clicks or scrolls to track success before moving on to different actions - like subscribes and finally orders.

      Cheers,
      Stephen Dean
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  • Profile picture of the author natorob
    My experiences with split testing never cease to amaze me.

    What I think is great is quite often wrong; and since split testing is very easy to do (I use Google Web Optimizer), the information I get back is priceless.

    Not only that, but I use what MikeHumpheys said above... Taking little test results from some of my own sales experiments allows me to craft better copy for clients; and I use those results everywhere.

    Stephen asked about evidence of testing; here are a few results that I have discovered thru simple split testing...

    A) Changing one sentence in the resource box of one of my EzineArticles resulted in an increase of almost 13% in my CTR to my anchor text

    B) Keeping the headline text exactly the same, I tested the control (regular text) vs a Photoshop image of a different font, and saw an increase in conversions of 0.4%
    ...

    While not a "Stop the Presses!" increase, that simple tweak generated one extra sale (roughly) for every 200 visitors that were coming to my site anyways.

    3) One other thing that I tested that surprised me... I tested an Adsense block on the bottom of a sales page I was running... Where they would be seen only after the visitor had gone thru the rest of the sales page.

    While this goes against every expert rule, I actually found that conversions on the sales page increased on every single page I tested.

    Why? Don't know... maybe the visitor thought that Google's presence on the page added more authority or whatever.

    Bottom line is this... If you don't test, you simply don't know.

    And while you may not see massive conversion rate differences, a 0.2% here and another 0.4% there, and one last 0.3% over there adds up to another 1% (actually 0.9%) conversion rate from the very same visitors that are coming to your page anyways.

    And if your page was only converting at 1% in the first place, you have doubled your conversion rate (and income).

    Since it is very easy to do, you should be testing as often as you can; regardless of the amount of traffic you are getting.

    My opinion... But it works for me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    Hey Stephen,

    I'm gonna be cliche' for a minute...

    Exactly. "You need to test" has jumped the shark. At one time it was insightful and now it's become cliche. And if more people tested, we'd have more tips to share rather than repeat the same ol' mantra.
    I am guilty of dishing out this advice almost anytime I feel it's the right answer...

    BUT...

    Take Matt's example. He wanted feedback on experiences with video.

    I have no idea what his product or market is. Even if I did, for all I know he could have a great sales letter and a horrible video, or vice-versa.

    He could have paid a pro for the sales letter and outsourced the video for a couple of hundred dollars.

    He may have wrote both and done well, but may have a monotone voice.

    Maybe his headline/lead in the copy did a great job of pulling readers in, while a similar approach in video would turn visitors off.

    Maybe just the way he delivers one line in the video does something to hurt credibility with the viewer.

    It's impossible to know this stuff.

    Even with my own stuff, I almost never guess which headline will pull the best. Or which price point will be the most profitable.

    And when people are asking for advice in forums, we really don't have any idea of what the bigger picture is.

    Even if someone is in the same market as me, I could say "video killed it in this niche", and they could find video bombs for them. Because we'd have different approaches to the market, and a thousand subtle yet important differences in our approaches.

    So when it comes to questions like...

    - Should I use red or blue for my headline?

    - Will video work in my niche?

    - How many bonuses is too many?

    - $37 or $67?

    - How many visitors can I get if I write 5 articles a day for a year?

    I suspect "test" is the most common answer. Because unless we're behind the scenes and get to look at all of the little nuances of their business, we're not really in a position to give even a remotely educated guess.

    Now, even if people did share results, which I personally wouldn't do in detail on a public forum, the results would still vary wildly from one person to the next.

    It's kind of like swiping. Without understanding the psychology going on in what you're swiping, you won't be able to get the same results.

    Without understanding why a video works well for a certain market, or a layout works well or whatever, it's hard to effectively "borrow" the reasons why it works in the first place.

    Hope that makes a little sense. And explains why I defer to the old "you have to test" answer on a pretty regular basis.

    Take care,

    -Scott
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    • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
      Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh View Post

      Without understanding why a video works well for a certain market, or a layout works well or whatever, it's hard to effectively "borrow" the reasons why it works in the first place.
      Originally Posted by Stephen Dean

      Testing may always be the final answer, but modeling success should often be the first step.
      Hey Scott, we both agree you need to test. And like I said I think testing is always the final answer.

      When someone like Matt comes to the forum and asks, "What are your experiences with [whatever]?", I think it's much more valuable to answer the question the way he asked it than to stop the question with "You won't know until you test."

      And like I say, while it's true a test will be the final answer, I do think modeling success is the best first step.

      There may be many different variables in play... and those variables may change how much success a specific strategy has from one marketer to the next... but still, what's the alternative?

      If you're not modeling success you're essentially picking things out at random.

      It's kind of like waiting around for a room full of typing monkeys to finally produce a perfect rendition of Shakespeare.

      OK... that's an exaggeration. If you know your market you may be able to come up with educated guesses about what will work. And these may (or may not) work better than randomness.

      Still... I think you'll get to more profits faster by modeling the success of others rather than starting from scratch.

      And hence, asking what success others have had is a good question and a fantastic starting place.

      Cheers,
      Stephen Dean
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  • If it wasn't for "testing" I would have gone broke a long time ago...I cannot count how many times my sales went down by 100% and after several test I bumped it BACK up 100%.

    As Eric Graham says...in this business you are either growing or your dying..there ant no in-between. Actually I think Eric got that from the movie "Tommy boy."


    Test Or Die! Thats what I say.

    PS to be honest I dont see how any business survives online long term WITHOUT testing.
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  • Profile picture of the author UcFrog
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
      Originally Posted by UcFrog View Post

      For sure we need to testing but for how long we need to do so ?
      times = expenses

      The longer time we took the much expenses we spend on it .
      A better question to ask is, "How much money might I be LOSING right now, by not testing?

      The testing process itself doesn't cost much money. If you're happy to hand your vital business data over to Google, you can use Google Website Optimizer. It's free.

      For example, if you have a squeeze page, why not run three or four different versions of it, as a split test. If you're only running one version, you'll never know whether a different version might be producing better results for you.

      Seriously, how much time does it take to create a slightly different version with a different headline or a different graphic... and pop it into some split testing software?
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Originally Posted by Paul Hancox View Post

        A better question to ask is, "How much money might I be LOSING right now, by not testing?
        You could be losing a lot. One of my tests this year uncovered a headline that converted better than the one I had been using for 4 years by more than 400%.

        The testing process itself doesn't cost much money. If you're happy to hand your vital business data over to Google, you can use Google Website Optimizer. It's free.
        Paul, I agree. That's why I don't use Google's free tool for my testing campaigns and never will. I don't want the company I'm buying PPC from to know what keywords are converted most profitably for me and adjust my prices upwards as a result.
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  • Profile picture of the author joelraitt
    So a few people said the #1 issue for people and split testing was...they are not getting enough traffic...

    ok thats cool...all i have to say is "dont put the cart before the horse" if your not getting enough traffic...then dont worry about split testing...get more f-ing traffic!!!

    dont waist 1 second setting up a split test (unless your buying traffic and itwill be a lot)

    when im starting a new campaign (i only buy traffic) ill set up a very simple test just using aweber.

    just create 2 copies of the same forms, put 1 on a page with a separate headline, then simply send 1/2 the traffic to each page. my tracking is in aweber the sign up rate on each form will show me % on each page...total time invested....maybe an extra 2 minutes?

    then if i see some results that i know are close to profit, ill take the time to set up tracking 202, and really start to test...why waist time?

    you can sit there all day trying to tweak your 10 visitors but it wont matter. either way your going to make little to no money b/c you HAVE NO TRAFFIC.

    long story short, get traffic, then test when you have it...
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    • Profile picture of the author copyassassin
      its been hammered into my head to send PPC traffic, then...

      test, tweak...

      ...test, tweak...

      ...test, tweak...

      Until the funnel is solid, then get JVs, Affialites, and so on.

      Because as Ken McCarthy says, "Traffic + Conversion = Profit".
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      • Profile picture of the author VyctorB_10
        Steven Dean~

        You are absolutely right, because we are selling to human beings, why/how should me measure our copy salable standard by a mere testing robot software or by other people whether copywriters or clients alike who would be seeking our Higher Expert-to-them level Prognosis. Means if we truly want to measure greatness, we should measure ourselves to the ALL TIME GREATS

        IN modelling the Excellent... afterall how can 1 help advise you if that is not his field of expertise or he is seeking your expert counsel for it, or maybe he's even beneath your league... still shaking my head as to this theory of testing.

        I believe LIFE IS THE TRUE< BEST < & ONLY REAL TEACHER... sales results in & of itself is the tell-tale and best TEACHER of weather our input is gravitating our desired output, throughput of the water-rippling effect, you get out what you put in.... if you have any lead suggestions on Great Writers, please feel free to throw me out some links, thanks friend!





        Truly, !~



        Victor~
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        • Profile picture of the author Stephen Dean
          Originally Posted by VyctorB_10 View Post

          Steven Dean~

          You are absolutely right, because we are selling to human beings, why/how should me measure our copy salable standard by a mere testing robot software or by other people whether copywriters or clients alike who would be seeking our Higher Expert-to-them level Prognosis. Means if we truly want to measure greatness, we should measure ourselves to the ALL TIME GREATS
          Oh I have faith in robot software. In fact, I code my own software for testing.

          The robot isn't telling us what works, it's interpreting the data given to us by humans. So I whole heartedly believe in testing.

          But I also believe in statistical analysis. Which means taking a look around you to see what's working now, and applying it to your own business. Then begin to modify.

          Cheers,
          Stephen Dean

          PS I just clarified my thoughts at the blog: Copywriter Bonks His Head, Loses Faith In Testing|Copywriting Dean
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by joelraitt View Post

      So a few people said the #1 issue for people and split testing was...they are not getting enough traffic...

      ok thats cool...all i have to say is "dont put the cart before the horse" if your not getting enough traffic...then dont worry about split testing...get more f-ing traffic!!!

      dont waist 1 second setting up a split test (unless your buying traffic and itwill be a lot)
      Not necessarily. You can still setup testing, regardless of how much traffic that webpage is getting.

      Sure, it's nice to get enough traffic in a day to get conclusive testing results but... even if it takes 6 months to get enough free natural traffic to a webpage, so be it. You'll still get testing data on what converts better 1-2 times each year for that product.
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      • Profile picture of the author joelraitt
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        Not necessarily. You can still setup testing, regardless of how much traffic that webpage is getting.

        Sure, it's nice to get enough traffic in a day to get conclusive testing results but... even if it takes 6 months to get enough free natural traffic to a webpage, so be it. You'll still get testing data on what converts better 1-2 times each year for that product.
        Yes, but is setting up testing, looking at is and seeing 10 people goto your site worth anyones time?

        Why not focus on traffic, then then worry about increasing ROI after? You're better off to grow and grow and grow then worry about testing to make 5% - 25% more or w/e.

        Just my opinion anywyas...rather then nickle and dime oyour way to a 5% better convertion that = 3 more sales a year and an extra 100 bucks...kinda a waste of time?
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by joelraitt View Post

          Yes, but is setting up testing, looking at is and seeing 10 people goto your site worth anyones time?

          Why not focus on traffic, then then worry about increasing ROI after? You're better off to grow and grow and grow then worry about testing to make 5% - 25% more or w/e.

          Just my opinion anywyas...rather then nickle and dime oyour way to a 5% better convertion that = 3 more sales a year and an extra 100 bucks...kinda a waste of time?
          If your site is converting at 0.1% with 100 unique visitors per month, then driving 2000 unique visitors to your site probably won't raise your conversion rate unless you're using better targeted traffic or getting lucky. You'll still be getting 0.1% with 2000 unique visitors.

          And if you're paying for the extra traffic then you aren't getting the best ROI on your paid traffic that you could.

          If you set up testing and then drive more traffic, then you can raise your conversion rates, make more sales, and reinvest in buying additional traffic to your site.

          Hope that helps,

          Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author ivana
            It is so important to test and yes, many people do not do it, and I was one of those my very first year, and when my income went up and down, I had no idea why, what was bringing in money and what was not

            I basically just did the work!

            BUT since I changed the strategy, my income has been consistent and growing.

            So take the time to test. Do 4 pages of test, put yourself in the "lead/buyer position" change sections at the time and see.

            I use a very simple tool called affiliate Prophet. you can set up split test in under 1 minute!
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          • Profile picture of the author joelraitt
            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

            If your site is converting at 0.1% with 100 unique visitors per month, then driving 2000 unique visitors to your site probably won't raise your conversion rate unless you're using better targeted traffic or getting lucky. You'll still be getting 0.1% with 2000 unique visitors.

            And if you're paying for the extra traffic then you aren't getting the best ROI on your paid traffic that you could.

            If you set up testing and then drive more traffic, then you can raise your conversion rates, make more sales, and reinvest in buying additional traffic to your site.

            Hope that helps,

            Mike
            Hmmmm...yah but if you read my post I was referring to people who are using 'bum marketing' and SEO. They should focus on traffic before conversion %.

            With SEO and stuff I'd rather have a low conversion rate and lots of traffic then a high conversion rate with low traffic.

            Cuz if you have the traffic you can mess around to build that conversion rate up a lot faster then trying to get the traffic.

            If you buy traffic then if you spend a nickel without tracking you might as well through it away.

            Thats my opinion...
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