The Great Copywriting Divorce

Is this for wannabee copywriters or for duped Warriors trying
to get advice for a project that will never go anywhere?

Anyone who blindly follows advice will eventually walk off a cliff

It's safe to say there are many people on here giving their
sage advice without any wisdom.

This is a public forum, not a university.

Cynical threads like this serve no purpose but create forum
fodder.

IMHO

Well said! More than anything else, copywriting is a science. Creativity is crucial, but without proven test results, opinions are nothing but guesses.

I've seen copy I absolutely hated mail for years ... and copy I thought was spot-on die in the test mailing.

** Edit: I sometimes let my competitive nature take precedent over my common sense, and my manners.

Sorry for blowing this up, as big as it has.

- HR

** Edit: I sometimes let my competitive nature take precedent over my common sense, and my manners.

Sorry for blowing this up, as big as it has.

- HR

** Edit: I sometimes let my competitive nature take precedent over my common sense, and my manners.

Sorry for blowing this up, as big as it has.

- HR

I really love this thread. Made my day. I haven't been haunting this forum for a while and have no idea what triggered it but I love what came as a result of it.

There always seems to be a temptation for the least to yell the loudest (maybe because they want to be known as stronger; even I've been known to do it) and strongest to ignore because they have little to prove.

And yet there are times when a tested warrior...someone whose really seen battle through the thick and thin of it all, rise up and say "No More!"...and not for themselves but for everyone else who's getting duped.

It's great to know there are wonderful warriors out there who actually are looking out for the rest of us. I wish more people would qualify their sources and, if not, to state clearly that it is personal opinion.

And as for copywriting and science, here's my personal opinion:

Yes, it is an art. There is just something about the flow and nature or communication that every person needs to master. Yes there needs to be some creativity and tone and style to your copy.

BUT most of all:

Mastery of the science is what transforms an oridinary writer to a copywriter.

Decades and decades of testing have gone into what is now the Science of Advertising. It cannot be argued: certain principles when followed properly continually increase response and sales. And they are all based in the scientific method of experimentation as Stephen mentioned earlier in this thread...so yes, it can be called scientific.

And the best part is we are all a part of this continually growing science. The more we test, the more we bring to table of this so called science...we're like a bunch of professors who are on the forefront of new discoveries...always testing and evolving.

Anyways, that my two cents.

Thanks again Stephen and to other warriors like yourself who are really living through the thick of it and offering your help to those of us who are still learning.

Doc Sulo, I checked out your blog earlier and I respect your opinion.

Here's the thing...

...if we hash it out and argue over what the definition of science is and if it applies to copywriting...

...is it going to change the way either of us writes copy?

It's just not important enough to me to argue about. I'd get no pleasure out of proving you wrong. And if you proved me wrong I'd feel no shame admitting it.

But then we'd still be in the same spot. Right now I'm working on moving forward.

Cheers, I signed up for your mailing list.

Stephen Dean

Thanks for starting this thread Stephen. Its an unfortunate situation to witness someone who 'doesn't know enough to know that they don't know enough' follow advice that is really an opinion.

Its also enlightening to read the different opinions about copywriting that abound here, as some of us are still learning the artistic and scientific aspects of writing effective copy.

AHH. Sighs the old man. Good stuff here, let me throw my s*** on the thread wall, if it sticks, OK. If not. OK.

Summer 1969.

TWO life changing events for Americans. An American walked on the moon.

GREAT stuff. But hardly changed too many people's life.

The HIDDEN EVENT OF 1969 which changed mankind forever was:

The conversion of Military "Serial Numbers" (as in "Give only your name, rank and serial number") to SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS.

It became the first point of time in history a nation had the ability to TRACK it's citizens, not as people, but as DATA.

And we've become almost nothing but DATA since then. Million dollar decisions are based upon you, not the real you, but upon the you that exists in a data base.

Your ability to buy a car, or a house depends upon the data spit out of the "files" somewhere, kept by an anonymous someone, with regards to your every financial move.

The ubiquitous 'THEY' know everything they need to know about you because of DATA.

Less than 1% (by some calculations, especially us "fringe" people) of American citizens and soon the world's population, are not their data.

OK. You want to sell a new kitchen device. You don't (as a marketer) look for real people, unless you sell door to door or at a "location", where you can use salesmanship and face to face technique.

You look for (as a remote direct marketer) the "people" on a list. In a data bank. Those people who have bought similar items, have bought recently, frequently, in multiples...and if all three, are on a HOT LIST somewhere. You rent the list and mail or use whatever remote means you use, a PROMOTION to these "people".

But, are they people? Or are they their DATA?

My "2 cents" on the subject is, if they are DATA, and you use only measurable devices to ascertain your results, then copywriting can probably be considered a "slightly" harder science...and not an ART form.

Certainly, like the so called sciences (Social Sciencs) of psychology, etc., the soft sciences, which deal with PEOPLE, salesmanship face-to-face can be included in the soft sciences.

So, does it matter?

Perhaps. If I'm dealing with DATA, and it becomes a numbers game, then I'll hedge my bet with the tested and proven (Bencevengia Bullets) results of millions of dollars of testing with some data to go by...then I can more closely choose elements that have worked...

thus, the whole need for a "SWIPE file" for even existing.

If I put AMAZING in my headline, data shows, that to this "list" or these "data people", that a response increases, I'm thinking SCIENCE.

If I put AMAZING in my headline just because Gary, Harry or Larry said too, then it is "opinion", and not tested, just ancedotal and worked in "this" instance, but certainly is probably not replicable. So, not a science.

We don't discuss this much, but truthfully, IN MY OPINION, it helps to know and understand the difference between selling to a "Data Person" or to a real person.

Sure, many arguments can be made they are ALL real people, but, my data says otherwise.

gjabiz

PS. Which is why, in 1969, I understood what was happening, and rec'd my first "official" computer lesson from the Great Charlie Green, a navy computer genius who told me," Garbarge In, Garbarge Out" the great GIGO formula. Probably means nothing to most of you but, it is a powerful weapon against the invasion of the "MAN". (Ooops, my 60's paranoia is showing)

That's a good point and clarifies the issue well. Cheers.

Also, to everyone, especially those who point out past events don't guarantee future results, here's what Daniel Levis posted today at the Total Package that I think we can all agree with.

Cheers,
Stephen Dean