NLP Copywriting - Embedded Command Openings

55 replies
Anyone know what the best source(s) are (book, training,etc) on applying embedded commands in your copy? I'm particularly interested in your sending me a list of openings that have been tested....

Tx!
#command #copywriting #embedded #nlp #openings
  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Hopefully you're not under the impression that embedded commands in copy actually persuade readers to take action.

    Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author ARSuarez
      Money,

      No idea what you're talking about.

      If you're looking to learn how to implement NLP, try Harlan Kilstein's stuff, Eric Lofholm, Donald Moines. These are credible guys in the field of NLP selling. Though, Lofholm a little more on scripted selling. But Moines was one of the early experts who wrote a very good book on the subject.

      Best,

      Angel
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      • Profile picture of the author docsulo
        What is an "Embedded Command Opening"?

        Can you give me an example?

        Embedded commands are executed through changes in tonality. This is difficult to do with accuracy in print.

        You CAN stress certain words by capitalizing or bolding or using italics BUT I don't see it being very covert and it will most likely look weird if you START DOING IT WITH COMMANDS.

        Why not just tell people what you want them to do and give them a reason to do it? Or tell them what you can do for them and prove that you can do it. A lot simpler.

        Why not do it in language that the other person normally uses rather than contrived language lifted from therapeutic settings? Just a thought.
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      • Profile picture of the author iSoftware
        Originally Posted by ARSuarez View Post

        Money,

        No idea what you're talking about.

        If you're looking to learn how to implement NLP, try Harlan Kilstein's stuff, Eric Lofholm, Donald Moines. These are credible guys in the field of NLP selling. Though, Lofholm a little more on scripted selling. But Moines was one of the early experts who wrote a very good book on the subject.

        Best,

        Angel
        Thank you for the suggestions! If they have some products I'm interested in buying I will hunt you down and force you to sign up and grab an affiliate link so you get paid for the referral, hehe

        Thanks again. BTW, Kilstein has some stuff on youtube and I went through it last night. It's very interesting! His blog too I found and went through a few posts which look intriguing....
        NLP Copywriting Harlan Kilstein
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    • Profile picture of the author iSoftware
      Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

      Hopefully you're not under the impression that embedded commands in copy actually persuade readers to take action.

      Alex
      lol...and people don't make money on the interwebs either
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    • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
      Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

      Hopefully you're not under the impression that embedded commands in copy actually persuade readers to take action.

      Alex
      Sorry to the NLP enthusiasts, but Alex is speaking truth here. I've worked as an achievement coach since 1999 and know NLP inside out, I also make well over 100k as a copywriter. I don't use NLP in coaching or in copywriting anymore, the results just didn't satisfy me or build my bank account.

      I use principles of human needs psychology in my copywriting and my coaching and negotiation with big clients...it works like candy on a fat kid.

      If you're interested, I created two free ebooks and a mini-course where I spill my guts on how to do this...if you think they suck you can always opt out...see my sig. Peace
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      • Profile picture of the author Ross James
        Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

        Sorry to the NLP enthusiasts, but Alex is speaking truth here. I've worked as an achievement coach since 1999 and know NLP inside out, I also make well over 100k as a copywriter. I don't use NLP in coaching or in copywriting anymore, the results just didn't satisfy me or build my bank account.

        I use principles of human needs psychology in my copywriting and my coaching and negotiation with big clients...it works like candy on a fat kid.

        If you're interested, I created two free ebooks and a mini-course where I spill my guts on how to do this...if you think they suck you can always opt out...see my sig. Peace
        Seth, I think you're looking at NLP with the wrong attitude. NLP isn't about a set of skills or measuring how much you tell yourself you know about it. NLP is about constantly observing, not analyzing (that's for psychologists) human behavior. To say you know it inside and out is just false, and maybe why it hasn't been working for you. If anything let how much you think you know about NLP remind you just how much you don't know. I tell myself the same thing with NLP and with copywriting. I always log into the warrior forum with the idea that I am here to observe, learn, apply what I've learned and to help where I can. I only brought this back up to say this because I wish you to have success with it and help you build upon your bank account.

        Best,

        Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author Paul Hancox
    Originally Posted by moneykws View Post

    Anyone know what the best source(s) are (book, training,etc) on applying embedded commands in your copy? I'm particularly interested in your sending me a list of openings that have been tested....
    I presume you wrote that tongue in cheek, right? ... because that's not an embedded command.

    If you can see it, it's not embedded.

    I covered these in Super Power Copy. If you're lucky, you might find my WSO kicking around.

    If you're lucky.
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    • Profile picture of the author iSoftware
      Originally Posted by Paul Hancox View Post

      I presume you wrote that tongue in cheek, right? ... because that's not an embedded command.

      If you can see it, it's not embedded.

      I covered these in Super Power Copy. If you're lucky, you might find my WSO kicking around.

      If you're lucky.
      Was that one "find my wso" ?

      Yeah I was trying to be a bit cheeky. Then again you don't have to pay close attention to what I'm saying if it seems silly!
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      did you catch it?
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    @ arsuarez, funny, i used to do private coaching with dr moine back in the day.

    also harlan's regarded as the nlp copy ninja.... i know he's got an nlp copywriting course.

    i'm sure someone will chime in with the url and/or feedback if they've got it.
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    ― Dalai Lama XIV

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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Originally Posted by Greg Wildermuth View Post

    Is that like the Jedi mind trick? "These are not the droids you're looking for..."

    Sorry, I don't know much about NLP...

    When would right now be a good time to forget about Embedded Command Openings?
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Originally Posted by Greg Wildermuth View Post

    Is that like the Jedi mind trick? "These are not the droids you're looking for..."

    Sorry, I don't know much about NLP...
    NLP was "created" by observing human behavior. Most of it doesn't translate to salesmanship in print. And what does, isn't new. Master copywriters have been using those same techniques for many years.

    In the world of copywriters, NLP is simply a hook used by some copywriters to position themselves. Supposedly it gives them persuasion powers not known by other copywriters.

    Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Don't read this reply unless you have an open mind.

    The embedded command is "read this reply." It is embedded within a negative connotation that pretty much assures that it will be read.

    Ken, sitting back and waiting for the fur to fly.
    No fur. LOL

    Yes, it's embedded. No, it doesn't compel people to read further.

    People will read further because you challenged them. Or they want to see what you mean by an "open mind". But not because the phrase "read this reply" is in the sentence.

    Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      How do you know?
      Issuing a challenge and using curiosity are proven persuasion techniques.

      Including embedded commands is not.

      Alex
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      • Profile picture of the author mrdomains
        Ah.. the Hex that needs unfolding.
        Master Psychology.
        Then ask.
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        Free action plan : Think less. Do more.

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        • Profile picture of the author Irish Intuition
          I love these threads... for the laughs. So many experts, so little success...
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          • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
            I say go with Harlan Kilstein. I am 3/4 of the way through his NLP course and its the real deal.

            To all of you who are saying it doesnt work, all I got to say is dont knock it before try it.

            Harlan talks about embedded commands, and why for most they dont work. I havent yet implemented embedded commands (the kind he teaches) but if you are in any type of selling it is easy to see how they would improve your copy, again, the type and way Harlan teaches it.

            Ashley
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          • Profile picture of the author Irish Intuition
            Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

            I'm sure things will get better for you.
            I hope so!
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            • Profile picture of the author Harlan
              Hi guys.

              I don't believe embedded commands work in copy very well.

              How would you mark them out?

              Like this BY NOW you probably want to get your hands on my product.

              uh. now I don't and thanks for trying to manipulate me.

              Would you put it in italics?

              Not going to work.

              NLP Copywriting is all about elegance. And if you don't do it elegantly, you're going to be caught and it looks bad to the reader.

              On the other hand, embedded commands work great in videos.

              But here's the key...

              if you use a single embedded command and think it's going to help, you are sadly mistaken.

              Patterns need to be used multiple times to make an impression ESPECIALLY when we know people skim and do not read every word of your copy.

              Don't think NLP copywriting is the magic cure all for bad copy.

              A lot of copywriters use NLP in their copy and see great results.

              Some did not and pointedly didn't care for it such as my old teacher Gary Halbert.

              I see a major difference when I consciously add NLP patterns to my copy.

              Happy testing.

              PS. No NLP patterns were injured in the writing of this post.
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              Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
              Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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              • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
                Thats the one thing I dont understand.

                I love your NLP course so far, its great.

                But when you speak of making your embedded commands invisible, and that if they arent they are manipulative or will piss of your customers it makes me wonder why you have such a blatantly obvious one in your NLP 1 course sales letter.

                The pull out credit card command. Now maybe you are doing something I dont know of yet, but when I first read that letter it stood out to me like a sore thumb, and I am sure it does for most. It isnt subtle at all.

                And in your course you told us not to go for the big one with embedded commands.... the "buy now" and to me, "pull out your credit card" is akin to that.

                Just curious.

                So far through your course I am preferring most of the other patterns to embedded commands. So I dont think I will be using embedded commands that much, at least not for now.

                But am just curious as to how your use of an embedded command is different from the "by now" commands

                Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                Hi guys.

                I don't believe embedded commands work in copy very well.

                How would you mark them out?

                Like this BY NOW you probably want to get your hands on my product.

                uh. now I don't and thanks for trying to manipulate me.

                Would you put it in italics?

                Not going to work.

                NLP Copywriting is all about elegance. And if you don't do it elegantly, you're going to be caught and it looks bad to the reader.

                On the other hand, embedded commands work great in videos.

                But here's the key...

                if you use a single embedded command and think it's going to help, you are sadly mistaken.

                Patterns need to be used multiple times to make an impression ESPECIALLY when we know people skim and do not read every word of your copy.

                Don't think NLP copywriting is the magic cure all for bad copy.

                A lot of copywriters use NLP in their copy and see great results.

                Some did not and pointedly didn't care for it such as my old teacher Gary Halbert.

                I see a major difference when I consciously add NLP patterns to my copy.

                Happy testing.

                PS. No NLP patterns were injured in the writing of this post.
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                • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                  Pull out your credit card is NOT an embedded command.

                  It's a direct command.

                  People don't get the difference.

                  Embedding it means it's disguised in a sentence.

                  And Joe said to May, "Pull out your credit card."

                  Not everything is an NLP Pattern.
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                  Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
                  Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
                  http://overnight-copy.com
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                  • Profile picture of the author Jason Fladlien
                    (Not) EVERYTHING is an NLP command.

                    My favorite NLP technique for copywriting - nested loops.
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                    Co-creator of WP Twin. Perhaps the most expensive yet most reliable wordress cloning tool on the market. We've definitely been used more successfully than all other options :)

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                  • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
                    Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                    Pull out your credit card is NOT an embedded command.

                    It's a direct command.

                    People don't get the difference.

                    Embedding it means it's disguised in a sentence.

                    And Joe said to May, "Pull out your credit card."

                    Not everything is an NLP Pattern.
                    But you do disguise it in a sentence:

                    lead your clients into a buying trance where they
                    pull out their credit cards on command eager to buy whatever you are offering - sometimes ordering the same product they already own!


                    Thats how it looks on your sales page.

                    Wouldnt a direct command be you telling them to pull out their credit cards, directly? If you are slipping into the sentence like that then it is embedded right?

                    I am not trying to call you out, I know only a sliver of it right now and I cannot even pretend to know any workable amount yet, but it seems conflicting.

                    I am trying to soak up as much as I can from your course but I am getting some mixed signals.

                    I know everything isn't using nlp on your sales letter, but you have the larger font which among other things you said can be used to highlight or alter embedded commands, and it is in the sentence like that, just like the examples you give, so it seemed like an embedded command.
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                    • Profile picture of the author docsulo
                      Originally Posted by AshleyAA View Post

                      Wouldnt a direct command be you telling them to pull out their credit cards, directly? If you are slipping into the sentence like that then it is embedded right?
                      As I said previously, embedded commands are a way of marking out the commands with changes in voice tone or volume.

                      Most people sub-vocalize when they read. They actually "hear" what they are reading in their head.

                      Because of this you CAN mark out things in your sentence to change the stress they make in their mind. (Chances are you said "can" with a stress in your head).

                      In conversation embedded commands can be spread over a long conversation. I can say things like - BY the time you and I get to the end of this session the PRODUCTS of your past learning may or may not... etc. The other-than-conscious mind puts together the words that are stressed differently so it hears "BUY PRODUCTS."

                      This type of thing can go on and on and the stress of those certain words (in a live conversation) will be picked up by your other-than-conscious mind.

                      I suppose you can play with it in print but there would have to be a lot of room for repetition, you would have to be certain the person sub-vocalizes in a predictable way, you must hope it doesn't look contrived or silly (you can get away with a lot more in conversation than you can in print) and most important of all - can you do just as well or better without it?
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                    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                      I was responding to your post - NOT to a sales letter I wrote several years ago.

                      I go into this in detail in the course and of course - any single mention of a technique is pretty worthless.
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                      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
                      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
                      http://overnight-copy.com
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                      • Profile picture of the author Ashley Gable
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        I was responding to your post - NOT to a sales letter I wrote several years ago.

                        I go into this in detail in the course and of course - any single mention of a technique is pretty worthless.
                        What do you mean?

                        You were responding to my post, my post about your sales letter.

                        I didn't mention credit cards/embedded commands in any other way than in regards to your sales letter.

                        So I fail to see what you were commenting on if it wasnt my comment about your sales letter.

                        As I said I am only 3/4 of the way through, so I obviously havent come across the direct command yet. Or maybe I missed it.

                        And yes, I am currently working on adding in all the patterns and techniques you teach into one of my sales letters. Already I can see that, all of them combined, will have a positive impact.

                        Ashley
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                      • Profile picture of the author iSoftware
                        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                        I was responding to your post - NOT to a sales letter I wrote several years ago.

                        I go into this in detail in the course and of course - any single mention of a technique is pretty worthless.
                        Wow, I missed this somehow. Didn't know you were a member....Love your videos by the way!
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              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

                I see a major difference when I consciously add NLP patterns to my copy.
                Is that all you add?

                See, here's my problem with this sort of thing.

                Every time I get someone to show me their splits with and without NLP, the one without it isn't just lacking the NLP. It's lacking all sorts of added lustre and elegance.

                The NLP version might say "I hear you over there; by now, you're wondering how you can join me in this business."

                There are three things in this one that may or may not be doing anything. There's the "hear/here" dichotomy, stressing that the vendor is in a different place than the buyer. There is the embedded "by/buy now" command. And there's the embedded command "join me" as well.

                Do they work? Well, the split test might show a difference, but it's probably being split tested against something like "You're probably wondering what this is going to take and what I want from you."

                And that sentence is just hideous.

                But it has to be, because it's REALLY HARD to say anything emotionally meaningful without an embedded command. You can't use ambiguous words, words which sound like other words, command verbs, you effectively have to write a passive piece of crap that wouldn't convert if you tried with both hands.

                So I have to wonder whether these split tests aren't just proving that awkward passive voice garbage doesn't sell. It seems like using NLP is awfully similar to writing engaging and interesting copy in the first place, so avoiding it turns into writing tedious and boring copy.

                Do we really need to split test that? Because, honestly, I think I learned that boring was bad when I was a kid.
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                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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                • Profile picture of the author Stephen Bray
                  Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

                  Is that all you add?

                  See, here's my problem with this sort of thing.

                  Every time I get someone to show me their splits with and without NLP, the one without it isn't just lacking the NLP. It's lacking all sorts of added lustre and elegance.

                  The NLP version might say "I hear you over there; by now, you're wondering how you can join me in this business."

                  There are three things in this one that may or may not be doing anything. There's the "hear/here" dichotomy, stressing that the vendor is in a different place than the buyer. There is the embedded "by/buy now" command. And there's the embedded command "join me" as well.

                  Do they work? Well, the split test might show a difference, but it's probably being split tested against something like "You're probably wondering what this is going to take and what I want from you."

                  And that sentence is just hideous.

                  But it has to be, because it's REALLY HARD to say anything emotionally meaningful without an embedded command. You can't use ambiguous words, words which sound like other words, command verbs, you effectively have to write a passive piece of crap that wouldn't convert if you tried with both hands.

                  So I have to wonder whether these split tests aren't just proving that awkward passive voice garbage doesn't sell. It seems like using NLP is awfully similar to writing engaging and interesting copy in the first place, so avoiding it turns into writing tedious and boring copy.

                  Do we really need to split test that? Because, honestly, I think I learned that boring was bad when I was a kid.
                  Yes, I agree with this. Personally
                  I wouldn't use ambiguity because
                  by now most here know how to
                  say no!

                  Sorry, couldn't resist that ;-)


                  But I think a sub-text can be
                  highlighted into copy that
                  subtly alters a readers mood,
                  or flexibility, as the sales message
                  develops.

                  It's similar to the kind of difference
                  Claude Hopkins refers to when he
                  asserts that some people will attempt
                  to sell with a message that simply
                  shouts 'Buy My Product', whereas
                  salesmanship in print uses all the
                  words and techniques needed, whilst
                  ensuring every one earns its keep.

                  Stephen
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Sanchez
    Paul and Harlan's programs are probably what you are looking for...

    My guess though is the negative remarks to embedded commands are more geared to the idea that:

    A. Embedded Commands don't work

    B. They real don't make sales (and that's coming from people who have some success with successful copy; who can argue with Obi Wan's teacher?)

    Harlan's correct though:

    Hardly anyone knows how to pull off NLP in real life let alone sales copy because they don't understand how to apply them properly. That's why I believe most poeple don't believe or use them.

    Basic rule: If it don't sound natural, it's a bunch of baloney. That's also why people tend to be negative about them because they hear them and go "yeah right -roll eyes"

    B - I agree with this. NLP/ embedded commands are tools and they are barely take priority over such things as metaphors and stories or the many, many other tools successful copywriter's have used for decades.

    The tried and true basics of copy are more powerful than any embedded command IMO.

    Every tool added to one's arsenal effectively can add more power per punch...so it might be a good idea to learn them too.

    Paul's Super Copy course is the real deal. It was seeing some of that material from that course that convinced me to take his mentorship program (so worth it by the way). I have not seen Harlan's material but from what I can see on his copy/posts and reading his book, he knows his stuff very well.

    Here's just one of the NLP patterns I've learned that you can add to your collection...and it won't break the bank.

    Ambiguities.

    This little addition is great when you want to carry on the conversation even when you thought it ended...and you can start it all over again.

    See? See how at first you thought the sentence ended and then it continued on?

    I use spaces between my copy to emphasize my own natural style of speak but this technique I learned from a neat Apache type NLP fellow:

    The Run on Sentence. Once someone thinks a thought is complete, you can really throw the mind for a loop by running the sentence on....and then getting them to buy.

    Catch it? (questions hide embedded commands too). Now, if you are careful, you can add an embedded command into the run on part. Words such as "maybe" and "might" which many say are weak words can be used to soften the next idea.

    For instance:

    You are such a great copywriter...and in need of real help...train me.

    What just happened to your brain? Fuzzy? Play with this fun jazz for a while...you just might love it.



    Oh here's a 3rd technique:

    The one word command:

    Seems silly but I use it every day with my kids.

    Instead of saying: "Billy, you left the lights on"

    I say "Billy...Lights"

    Think. Stop. Question. Answer. Pause for a moment.

    OK so it's always one word. An incredibly short sentence works too.

    Read this. And you can decide. Now....

    Want it? Do you really...want it?

    Now I'm just having some silly fun. Play is one of the only ways to really learn embedded commands. It again is not the end all be all. It's just a tool and for you to decide if it works for you and your copy.

    Note on one word command: Notice what a command feels like - it sort of has the tonality of how firm parent would speak. That's the easiest way to spot them.

    Just think for a moment....what are you doing? Opening your mind to thinking?

    Anyways, as a disclamier, I'm no expert and I would respect the advice given by some of the experienced copy writers on these forums. They know their stuff for a reason. If you want info on that NLP guy, PM. Taught me more about how to really use NLP better than anyone I've ever met.

    PS - The other day I was transcribing an older million dollar sales letter and saw embedded commands all over the place... and I knew the copywriter who wrote it didn't have a clue he was doing them. NLP is just an observation of what people just like copywriting is the observation and testing of what works in the real world of sales. In the end learning to write great copy will naturally produce persuasive communication better than a bunch of NLP techniques ever could.

    Personally I would master copy first then add in the NLP in later.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by Danniboy View Post

      Ambiguities.

      This little addition is great when you want to carry on the conversation even when you thought it ended...and you can start it all over again.

      See? See how at first you thought the sentence ended and then it continued on?
      Ambiguity violates the clarity rule of copywriting.

      Have any proof it increases sales?

      Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author Stephen Bray
    As a psychotherapist, and one who
    worked in major teaching hospitals as
    well as teaching generations of medical
    practitioners, psychologists, counsellors
    and similar I attest that embedded
    commands, paradox, metaphors and
    many other 'tricks' taught in NLP do
    work.

    BTW as well as being a Family Therapist,
    I also studied NLP at its birthplace with
    some of the originators, so I'm declaring
    an bias here.


    There is a school of Family Therapy that
    involves letter writing after each therapeutic
    meeting. Embedded commands, paradox, and
    metaphors may sometimes be used in these.

    In effect the 'therapist' is 'selling' a patient
    the ability to perceive an alternative possibility
    to their pain, or problem.

    Any copywriter seeking to understand how to
    apply these techniques might do worse than
    read the following works from the world of
    therapy, rather than sales copy, and adapt
    them:

    The Answer Within: A Clinical Framework
    of Ericksonian Hypnotherapy
    , by Stephen
    and Carol Lankton.

    Patterns Of The Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H.
    Erickson M.D. Volume 1
    , Richard Bandler and John
    Grinder.

    Narrative Means to Therapeutic Ends,
    Michael White and David Epston

    These texts, however, will be of little use to
    those who aren't devoted to the science of
    copywriting.

    They require some translation from the clinical
    world of therapy into the that of sales. Also there is
    some redundancy in the texts because perhaps
    two thirds of the words are irrelevant to writing
    sales copy.


    The cardinal rule of good copywriting prevails
    when using the techniques revealed in these books.

    When you write with the interest of your
    reader in mind you will make sales, but when
    you write solely out of self interest even a child
    will smoke you out and you'll end up falling on
    your arse!

    Stephen
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  • Profile picture of the author DrewC72
    I would just study Richard Bandlers work - He is the co-founder
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Sanchez
    So in response...since I saw this thread show up again:

    They Laughed At When I Sat Down At The Piano (end of thought)...(or is it)

    But Then I Started to Play...

    This might be a weird this to call ambiguity but the ending of a thought that is over...and then continues to me is a use of ambiguity. You wait for the mind to go off track and then change their state or train of thought.

    Sometimes people forget that changing someone's state (creating a chemical reaction in their mind and body) is part of the persuasion process.

    The Lazy Way To Riches makes great use of another form of ambiguity.

    There are no testimonials in that letter...but Joe Karbo knew a older lady, a younger lady, a full time mom, etc (and no I'm not looking directly at the letter as reference; I've just studied it and caught this) would lived the dream.

    And there is no exact mention of their names or anything else for that matter. Complete ambiguity.

    Ambiguity works and is seen in communication and sales letter everywhere. In fact successful bullets carry this very trait. And what's interesting is that hardly any successful copywriter would call it that but from a NLP standpoint that's what is being done.

    NLP, once again, is the observation of what is and not the creation of something new.

    What's even more effective is to study successful copy and why it works rather than studying NLP..although knowing some deeper NLP can help you catch more stuff (again study Kilstein or Hancox for some neat material these strategies)

    So there you go (to the original poster of this thread). An NLP technique you can notice in copy.
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  • Profile picture of the author True Solution
    My Brother, NLP Commands do and can be used in textual script. However the trick is more in the flow and the character of the writing, the pace of the literature. Creative writing is an art, it's paint strokes can be taught and mastered, but writing is much more a whole, complete task than it is focusing overly on bold fonts.

    True Solution
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross James
      Originally Posted by True Solution View Post

      My Brother, NLP Commands do and can be used in textual script. However the trick is more in the flow and the character of the writing, the pace of the literature. Creative writing is an art, it's paint strokes can be taught and mastered, but writing is much more a whole, complete task than it is focusing overly on bold fonts.

      True Solution
      I never said you couldn't use NLP patterns to sell True Solution but NLP used in print is a fraction of knowing how to selling anything. And for anyone to measure how much they know about NLP is just silly, so silly in fact you make yourself look like you really have no understanding of it in the first place.

      Best,

      Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author methomas
    Joe Vitale says,

    “Anything you do which makes your readers react because of MENTAL IMAGES you plant in their minds is HYPNOTIC SELLING!”

    Isn't all sales copy putting mental images or feelings in your customers mind?

    The words you use are inputted into the copy. Could this be considered being embedded?

    M E
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  • Profile picture of the author DannyDarwin
    Words are power. You all read books and scientific journals and study the best, just like me. Then you know that it's proven over and over and over again that we get different results depending on which words we choose, the way we use them and the way they are presented.

    Now, what I want to know... do you suddenly feel the same urge for chocolate ice cream that I did a few minutes ago? I'm having it now.

    Anyway, NLP is a way of understanding something that already exists. Master manipulators have used these "tricks" for milleniums.

    It's like saying "Do you believe in reciprocity? I heard some guy Cialdini invented it." No, he didn't, he observed it and he tested it. But it was there all the time.

    Now, more ice cream.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ross James
      Originally Posted by DannyDarwin View Post


      Anyway, NLP is a way of understanding something that already exists. Master manipulators have used these "tricks" for milleniums.
      A better understanding of NLP is not only knowing of something that already exists, but how to use it yourself to create change and keep it.

      That's a better way to think of NLP.

      ...then there is design human engineering :p but I don't want to spill all of my candy in the lobby.

      Best,

      Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author DannyDarwin
    Sure, I get your point. I guess you embedded something right there in all those sweets. Funny you would make such a reference though.

    What I meant was that it doesn't matter what label we put on it... be it NLP, embedded commands, conversational hypnosis or just good old persuasion. It's been there all the time, we just create theories and models to understand it and sometimes we can use those very same models to come up with techniques to reverse the process.

    So yes, using the knowledge is better than just having it, however I was thinking about it in a broader sense. I should have embedded that in a more clever way. :p
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross James
    If I embedded anything I didn't do it consciously. I was just adding to what you're saying, you aren't wrong.

    Best,

    Ross
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  • Profile picture of the author rcritchett
    Interesting Thread!

    My opinion follows: (all of yours kicked butt)

    NLP is best used when it's ON YOURSELF, to change something. I've been studying and applying NLP for about two years now, but only out of my own quest for excellence (installing successful thinking patterns, reconditioning my mind.. things of that type).

    Lol.. guys like Derren Brown (people who use NLP as a vehicle for persuasion) remind me of charlatans!

    Interesting thread!
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    So NLP doesn't work in print is the impression I'm getting.

    Harlan can correct me if I'm wrong here, as I *think* I heard this in one of his talks ... mass control seminar?

    ISTR a situation where someone needed some help but just would not accept it. The solution was to write up "a sales letter" that would get this guys attention in newspaper format. Because this person would not have read it or accepted it anywhere else, it was put in the john.

    Apparently the result was successful, and a change in this persons behavior/actions was the result.

    So I am having a bit of trouble thinking that NLP can't be effective when used in a sales letter.

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author Ross James
    The most effective use of NLP is when you use it conversationally as in person or video. It can still be used in stories on sales letters but others suggest not in the form of embedding commands.

    -Ross
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    • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
      Originally Posted by Ross James View Post

      The most effective use of NLP is when you use it conversationally as in person or video. It can still be used in stories on sales letters but others suggest not in the form of embedding commands
      It looks like I was expanding embedded commands to NLP in general. Thanks for the clarification.

      Marvin
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