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The sheer number of critique requests is getting ridiculous

by Mark Andrews Banned
57 replies
There was a time when the CW forum actually served it's real purpose, for copywriters to enjoy quality discussions about copywriting.

Sure there was a lot of banter flying back and forth, many disagreements all the time, arguments even, but at least the learning environment was conducive to all of us getting a lot better at what we do.

These days (and for some time now) almost the entire 1st page is just filled up with one critique request after another. Which wouldn't be so bad if at least some bloomin' effort was put into many of the sales pitches. Unfortunately, the majority of them are just mind bogglingly crap.

They look as though they've spent all of a couple of hours slapping something together, no regard for quality or indeed any copywriting basic 101 advice. Too lazy to learn the art of copywriting themselves they won't even think to employ somebody more experienced because today they all want something / everything handed to them on a plate free of charge.

I'm sure it's not just me who has noticed this downward spiraling trend in recent weeks and months.

Come on guys. Before asking for a critique here at least put some bloody effort into your sales copy. Study the basics of copywriting. Understand your market - your target audience, their emotions, what makes your target market tick.

Understand your target audience' feelings of frustration and pain. Don't just whack up the first words to enter your mind thinking, "Yeah that'll do. If it doesn't work out, I'll just ask for a critique and then maybe change out a couple of things."

It's seriously by the day getting more and more annoying witnessing the sheer amount of laziness of many of the so-called marketers in this section of the forum. Many of you need to buck your ideas up or receive a jolly good kicking up the arse.

Please stop posting this crap up...

...there's more than enough information here on this forum if you just would use the search function. Advice from many top copywriters, advice which it has to be said, is worth many tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's right here at your fingertips. Obviously...

Unfortunately...

...95% of you are completely ignoring it though otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the sheer amount of complete dross peppering the forum of late.

Please critique this. Would you critique this? Critique please...

Grrrrrrrrr - it's enough to drive a saint completely and utterly barmy.

If any of the other more well known copywriters want to add their thoughts on this subject, please be my guest.


Mark Andrews
#critique #number #requests #ridiculous #sheer
  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I'm not well-known by any means, but I noticed the trend as well. Considering I'm new, I didn't really know whether it was the norm. However, knowing that it was once drastically different, I'd be interested in seeing if we could get back to more discussion and less critiquing.

    Half the critiques I've seen devolve into ripping and shredding and arguing anyway. I'd rather the arguing be about a more interesting topic than critiquing sales copy
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    • Profile picture of the author Grain
      I second you, Mark.

      A forum is a place where people hold conversations
      in a post-based context, not a place where there's
      a one-way transfer of value. In this case, there's
      a one-way transfer of value from copywriters to
      marketers...

      ...And they know not a blinking thing about CW,
      expecting a high quality critique for free.

      How about a vote for a critique sub-forum? I
      thought I heard something about that in the CW
      forum sometime ago, but it never got implemented.

      The critique requests will never stop, since there's
      social proof that others have done it in the past.

      Also, I believe many copywriters are really busy and
      do not have much time to keep up with the forum.
      They drop by every time and then, see a critique
      request, drop a few words...

      Critiques are great because they allow people to
      share value, but the sheer quality of the copy they
      provide gives the impression of "laziness", "taken
      for granted", "clueless", "not for them"...

      So I'm with you on this.

      Kind Regards,
      Grain
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    So shall we give it a third go then?

    WE WANT A SUB FORUM
    WE WANT A SUB FORUM
    WE WANT A SUB FORUM
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  • Profile picture of the author Derek Pankaew
    I don't think the trend is exclusive to the Copywriting forum. All over the WF people are asking questions like "How do I get traffic to my site?" and "What is the best way to make money on the internet?"

    I think that's just what happens when you have a completely open membership forum that gets really, really big. Eventually people who're looking for easy solutions and haven't put in their time propogate, which can turn off more experienced members.

    Not much we can do about it really ...
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Meaney
    Maybe it's time to start sending them to this thread http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...-critique.html ?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Okay... Brian McLeod, Ken Strong and Paul Myers do you mind, would you mind sharing with us directly please why the creation of a sub forum for copywriting critiques is so objectionable?

      Many Warriors have asked for the same in times past but the suggestion isn't enacted upon. Is there a reason for this? Is it because this can set off a 'dangerous' precedent on the other sub forums that it's not been implemented here yet? Because, well, to a fair few of us you see, it really would make perfect sense.

      So how about it? Could we please have this sub forum?

      I'm pretty sure and I'm also sure many others would agree with me that if a sub-forum for critiques only is added here - the overall quality of the main CW forum would rise as a result and then everyone benefits.

      It's a respectful request for this to be implemented as soon as possible.

      Please do let us know your thoughts.

      Kindest regards,


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author Grain
        -deleted as requested-
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Grain no offense but you don't really have any credibility yet to be suggesting anything. You haven't been here long enough to be pointing out errors in the system here. Just saying.

          Whilst I welcome your support, you're not helping the cause. It would be better believe you me for this matter to be left to Warriors who have at least been here for a number of years.

          Thanks,


          Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        Okay... Brian McLeod, Ken Strong and Paul Myers do you mind, would you mind sharing with us directly please why the creation of a sub forum for copywriting critiques is so objectionable?
        Who said it was objectionable?

        I'm all for the idea... but this is Allen's joint. It's his call to make (and his work to do if he decides to act on it).

        Part of the challenge (I suspect) is that this section is already one of the slowest in the WF.

        Adding an additional sub forum for critiques may not be too high up on the list of "need to get this done ASAP". Doesn't mean the idea hasn't registered with The Monkey God who sees all.

        Brian
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        Brian McLeod
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

          Who said it was objectionable?

          Doesn't mean the idea hasn't registered with The Monkey God who sees all.

          Brian
          Previous experience said it Brian.

          Talking of the Monkey God and the 'chattering masses'...


          ...seems appropriate enough.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ronak Shah
          Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

          Who said it was objectionable?

          I'm all for the idea... but this is Allen's joint. It's his call to make (and his work to do if he decides to act on it).

          Part of the challenge (I suspect) is that this section is already one of the slowest in the WF.

          Adding an additional sub forum for critiques may not be too high up on the list of "need to get this done ASAP". Doesn't mean the idea hasn't registered with The Monkey God who sees all.

          Brian
          Just a note Brian.. Don't use terms like The Monkey God.. because in Hinduism we've Hanuman The Monkey God and if you involve him in your discussions it may be offensive. Please understand. A request. Kindly note.
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          • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
            Originally Posted by Ronak Shah View Post

            Just a note Brian.. Don't use terms like The Monkey God.. because in Hinduism we've Hanuman The Monkey God and if you involve him in your discussions it may be offensive. Please understand. A request. Kindly note.
            All apologies to any Hindu sensitivities.

            And it's been a running joke here for longer than you've been a member Ronak, so... please understand. A request. Kindly note. No offense is ever intended when that nickname is evoked.

            Best,

            Brian <- just flew home from Raleigh, and I'm sick as a dog. UGH, did it again!
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  • Profile picture of the author abugah
    I wholly support the removal of critique requests from the main copywriting forum.
    However, since the forum is there to help all individuals, I would suggest this:

    1. Have a sub forum for critiques just as it has been suggested before.

    2. Have one comprehensive thread that anyone looking for critiques should be asked to study. (This may be a big challenge because different sales letters have different challenges, but it is possible to make it 90% effective.)

    3. Have a list of copywriters who are open to critique request-That means anyone who wants a critique can PM them. I think there are copywriters who enjoy critiquing copy that is written by the truly lazy and wholly ignorant lot.

    4. Have anyone who wants a critique make a donation of $1 to $5 (max) that should be donated to a charity.

    Perhaps No 3 would be the most appropriate. Even in the real world you do not have the luxury of asking critiques from 10 different copywriters. However, I suspect this may present new admin challenges; which is how the world works anyway-nothing is stagnate.

    Crazy ideas perhaps-I am open to critique.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Lets just keep it simple.

      A sub forum request. Nothing more.


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Mark,

        I hear your frustration. I've heard it from a lot of other copywriters too. They have opted to keep their frustration private because they don't see things changing on their own.

        There's been more than one thread created in the last few years about the number of critique requests.

        This one started in 2009 comes to mind.

        http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...-critique.html

        Critiques weren't the primary reason for creating this forum in the first place.

        It was to create and foster copywriting discussion. It was enable people to improve their copywriting skills to write better marketing for their own businesses and make more money.

        This forum description from the main page says it best (bolding by me):

        "This section is for the discussion of Copywriting - the most vital skill you can learn. Arm yourself with the power to move people with words and you'll need little else to make money any time and anywhere you choose."

        I suspect adding a sub-forum for critiques would cause the majority of them to be ignored by most of the copywriters who visit this forum.

        Unless a copywriter is prospecting for work or feeling generous then they have a limited amount of time to do free critiques because they ARE time-consuming to do.

        And unfortunately, there's a finite amount of free work anyone can do in a day/week/month/year because of there's always the harsh reality of needing to make money to pay bills, cover living expenses, and so on.

        When a free critique is done... Having the free work acknowledged goes a long way towards making someone feel like they're appreciated. And what I've heard from a number of copywriters and seen in threads in this forum... it doesn't happen.

        Worse, there are people who create a critique request with the sole intention of getting a bunch of other people to write their entire salesletter for free.

        That's not the purpose of a critique and means even more copywriters won't want to do free critiques for anyone in the future. It's human nature -- no one likes feeling like they've been used.

        Personally, I'd LOVE a separate sub-forum for critique requests. It would definitely make it easier to find the non-critique threads and discussions I'd want to read and participate in.

        But I doubt it will happen. It's been requested more than once over the last few years and hasn't happened yet. So I don't think it will happen now.

        Here's what I do suggest to the people asking for requests:

        1. Follow the suggested guidelines in this thread:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...-critique.html

        2. Make sure you thank anyone who takes the time out of their day to give you suggestions, feedback, or a full-blown critique to thank them. At the very least hit the 'thanks' button. Personally, I'm more moved when I get a PM or a thank you note in the critique thread because it tells me that my efforts were truly appreciated... but that's just my preference.

        3. Put the suggestions into action.

        4. Contact at least one of the copywriters who gave you the feedback/suggesitons/critique and ask them what they'd charge you for a paid critique.

        A paid critique isn't as expensive as getting a salesletter written from scratch. More importantly, your copywriting ally can justify spending a lot more time going over your salesletter and coming up a lot more things that should be changed to increase your conversion rates.

        And if your copywriter recommends getting a whole new salesletter instead, they're giving you dead honest advice.

        In 5+ years of writing copy professionally, I haven't met a single copywriter who looked to gouge clients for every penny they could. I have met a lot of copywriters who really get charged up about helping other people make more money IF they're treated like the professional that they are.

        5. If you can't afford to hire a copywriter for a paid critique, then you should look at improving your copywriting skills on your own. Buy at least one of the recommend copywriting books in this thread:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html

        If you're really strapped for cash, then head to your local library and borrow some copywriting books for free. Or fire up your web browser and do a search for free copywriting books.

        For the critique seekers... It's in your best interests to make sure those who help feel like their effort is appreciated and that their time wasn't wasted.

        My 3 cents,

        Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    Perhaps we could all get together and design a marketing campaign to persuade allen to give us a subforum muahahaha
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
    Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

    It's seriously by the day getting more and more annoying witnessing the sheer amount of laziness of many of the so-called marketers in this section of the forum. Many of you need to buck your ideas up or receive a jolly good kicking up the arse.

    Please stop posting this crap up...

    If any of the other more well known copywriters want to add their thoughts on this subject, please be my guest.
    Mark, what kind of cheese do you like to snack on with you whine? : )

    Listen, no one is forcing any of you to post in critique threads. So stop acting like Pavlov's dog (drool drool) everytime a thread for a critique is posted (ding ding). Let the NOOBs jump in and do the CRIT then sit back, have a good laugh with your morning coffee (or tea) and move on.

    Save your CRITs for those who have actually made an effort.
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    Its not that subtle, its that it gets in the way of a lot of good content. A lot of things dont get seen because critique requests are cluttering things up. So much time and attention is given to critique requests that the best info often gets pushed down way faster than it should.

    Lowers the overall quality of content on the forum. So much time gets spent on critique requests and the starters of the thread keep bumping them so instead of talking about ways weve discovered to boost response most time and attention is given to newbies who dont know the difference between features and benefits.

    While you may say dont pay attention to them, other people do, bumps the thread, the thread goes viral and the same ol sh*t gets talked about instead of the real meaty content getting discussed and making us all better copywriters.

    At the end of the day the product owner benefits but most of the people who should be deriving benefit arent. Members of this forum would be better served having 2 seperate areas, as a matter of content quality, and discussion quality.

    A lot of response boosting stuff gets missed because self serving critique requesters are constantly demanding and crying for attention on the fourm. So all the good stuff that really helps the copywriters on this forum write better copy gets pushed down, and forgotten.

    It simply doesnt serve the people on this forum very well.
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    • Profile picture of the author arfasaira
      Here's my take on it...

      Although I pop by everyday and see nothing but endless critiques (which I admit are pretty annoying) - they do serve a purpose...

      Critiques help the newer copywriters who need some direction with their own copywriting efforts - after all, when I first started out, I would eagerly read through the critique threads to see what I could learn from the pros.

      But, there is also a flipside to everything. As a copywriting professional, you are an expert in what you do. Like all the other good copywriters here, I spent hundreds upon hundreds of hours learning, honing and refining my skill...

      I also spent a hell of a lot of money to get to where I am now...and I'm still making the time to learn and grow all the time...

      Which is precisely why many good copywriters choose not to critique...

      It's like expecting free advice from a lawyer, accountant, private doctor or any other professional for their advice...

      And as Mike quite rightly pointed out - many of us are busy with clients and trying to make ends meet and just don't have the time to do critiques...

      Which is why I don't post critiques here.

      Mr Subtle has a point - ignore the critiques if you don't want to encourage it..
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      • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
        I think the idea for a subforum for critiques is okay.

        But, I agree if you don't want to post a critique, then don't do it.

        I don't often post critiques since the sales letters are so bad, I would virtually have to rewrite them.

        People must learn more copywriting before they ask for a critique.

        But then again most people are simply too lazy to learn and want everything fast without paying the necessary price in life. :rolleyes:
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    I'm reasonably new here, so maybe my opinion isn't worth a bucket of warm spit, as Clayton says.

    I will agree with the several long-term members that the relentless "critique my worthless crap that I haven't made any real effort to work on" postings are getting in the way of useful information. OF COURSE every newbie on the web is going to come here to see if they can wheedle a free consultation out of somebody.

    If we can't even post a simple link until we have made 50 postings, why can they waste everybody's time and attention with crap review requests?

    IMHO, the forum members might be better served with not only a separate critiques forum, but with a 50-post minimum or even paid membership for critique requesters.

    Apparently some writers like to read the drivel and laugh at the blind leading the blind, but if that is what this forum is going to be about, I suspect a lot of the serious copywriters will go elsewhere. I already see some that have noticeably decreased participation as of late.

    It's true that nobody is obligated to respond to any critique requests, but why is everybody obligated to weed through all the crap every day? That makes no sense.

    Separate critique requests forum, please.
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  • Profile picture of the author madison_avenue
    Critiquing is not just useful for the person who's work is being critiqued, but it also benefits the person doing the critiquing. People learn by practising their craft and critiquing others work is practice.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    There seems to be a general agreement that there are just too many of the requests.

    Whether the associated content is good or bad, whether people want to respond to the review requests or not, whether the request threads are useful or not, all seem to be secondary points of view.

    But the sheer number of review requests is a physical issue. They could easily be located in a dedicated forum, then people can go there to learn or not, reply or not, sneer or not. The other useful threads in this forum would not keep getting pushed down to a quick extinction.

    Just my .02, and I'll shaddup now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    I'm a firm believer that if you don't agree with something, don't pay attention to it...

    ...Unless you absolutely MUST.

    And if/when that time comes, focus on solutions, rather than the problem.

    I agree with Mr. Subtle.

    If you don't like the sheer number of people asking for critiques, don't respond.

    However...

    Keep in mind...

    When someone asks for a critique who HAS really put a lot of effort into their project, the feedback process can be extremely helpful for readers interested in growing their own copywriting skills.

    I personally don't think a sub-forum is the answer.

    That being said...

    There should be some moderation or an approval process before a critique can be posted live....

    ...Because all too often, the thread starter posts copy that isn't even worth commenting on.

    My main issue is that I've rarely seen the person who posts their copy utilize the feedback in a positive manner... if at all.

    What's the point of asking for feedback from experts if you aren't going to do something with it?

    Here's the thing:

    Integrating ALL the various perspectives that experts provide here is an art form.

    It takes an astute, detail-minded, emotionally aware person to write and edit copy.

    That's why we can demand $5,000+ for a single sales letter.

    So it's one thing to get critiqued...

    ...It's something else entirely to actually put the feedback received to great use.

    Also...

    When people don't have to pay to get their copy critiqued by the experts on this forum, they tend to take for granted the attention their threads receive.

    So the solution isn't starting a new sub-forum that's going to be mostly populated with nonsense...

    ...People need to PAY $20 to post their copy - so they give an exchange of energy (beyond any expression of written appreciation).

    I guarantee you'll notice an instantaneous decrease in people wanting feedback.

    So just make the person posting specify if the thread is asking for a critique or offering insights.

    Threads that are meant to help people still get posted for free...

    ...But if they tick the "ask for critique" box, they pay the $20 and their thread has to get approved by the moderator.

    Just like the classified section.

    Mark

    P.S. In my opinion, copywriter's should cherish the opportunity to give their feedback - IF they really have something to say about the copy that gets posted. This forum is about creating awareness about the art of copywriting. Sometimes the most insanely valuable insights are triggered in the feedback process. So from that perspective, it's totally appropriate for THIS forum to accept and engage in requests for feedback. Again though, most people won't truly value the information they receive unless they pay for it.
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    • Profile picture of the author mowse73
      I totally understand why the professional copywriter's on this forum are pissed off with other members for asking for free critiques(especially when the requester hasn't bothered to put the effort in to write a winner before asking).

      But I always gain something when you guys do critique the sales pages of others, and I am truly grateful for the chance to read your comments.

      Martin
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        Just wanted to say thank you to all of you for posting your comments, thoughts and opinions on this issue. All your comments are appreciated.

        Mr Subtle... it's not a whine, it's merely an observation and an expression of an opinion. Nevertheless thank you too for adding to the debate.

        If we have learn't anything from this it's that quite a few members who regularly contribute here would like to see some change happen. If not a fully fledged sub forum for the critiques, certainly asking Warrior Members to pay for the priviledge seems a reasonable enough idea.

        Then Allen benefits for the trouble of making the necessary changes, we benefit because only serious requests for assistance will be put on the forum and overall... everybody can enjoy more quality copywriting conversations where we can all help and learn from one another.

        Thanks,


        Mark Andrews
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        • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
          Replying to a request for a critique on copy that's half baked does no one any favors. It's a waste of time, creativity and opportunity for learning.

          Overeager copywriters and copywriters new to the forum are encouraging the submission of these type of "slapped together" pieces when they reply to them. Requests like these would be reduced naturally if copywriters stopped replying to them.

          Personally, critique requests that show sincere effort warrant my help, no matter where they're organized. The rest do not, no matter where they're organized.

          We ALL know what sincere effort looks like.

          To save copywriters a ton of collective time, all that needs to happen is for the first copywriter reviewing a piece to reply "Waste of time to critique."

          That'll send a message.

          - Rick Duris
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
            Banned
            Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

            To save copywriters a ton of collective time, all that needs to happen is for the first copywriter reviewing a piece to reply "Waste of time to critique."

            That'll send a message.

            - Rick Duris
            Good point Rick.

            Thanks,


            Mark Andrews

            PS I would have clicked on the Thanks button but I've used up my quota for the day - sorry about that.
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    • Profile picture of the author MBDirect
      Originally Posted by Reflection Marketing View Post

      I'm a firm believer that if you don't agree with something, don't pay attention to it...

      ...Unless you absolutely MUST.

      And if/when that time comes, focus on solutions, rather than the problem.

      I agree with Mr. Subtle.

      If you don't like the sheer number of people asking for critiques, don't respond.

      However...

      Keep in mind...

      When someone asks for a critique who HAS really put a lot of effort into their project, the feedback process can be extremely helpful for readers interested in growing their own copywriting skills.

      I personally don't think a sub-forum is the answer.

      That being said...

      There should be some moderation or an approval process before a critique can be posted live....

      ...Because all too often, the thread starter posts copy that isn't even worth commenting on.

      My main issue is that I've rarely seen the person who posts their copy utilize the feedback in a positive manner... if at all.

      What's the point of asking for feedback from experts if you aren't going to do something with it?

      Here's the thing:

      Integrating ALL the various perspectives that experts provide here is an art form.

      It takes an astute, detail-minded, emotionally aware person to write and edit copy.

      That's why we can demand $5,000+ for a single sales letter.

      So it's one thing to get critiqued...

      ...It's something else entirely to actually put the feedback received to great use.

      Also...

      When people don't have to pay to get their copy critiqued by the experts on this forum, they tend to take for granted the attention their threads receive.

      So the solution isn't starting a new sub-forum that's going to be mostly populated with nonsense...

      ...People need to PAY $20 to post their copy - so they give an exchange of energy (beyond any expression of written appreciation).

      I guarantee you'll notice an instantaneous decrease in people wanting feedback.

      So just make the person posting specify if the thread is asking for a critique or offering insights.

      Threads that are meant to help people still get posted for free...

      ...But if they tick the "ask for critique" box, they pay the $20 and their thread has to get approved by the moderator.

      Just like the classified section.

      Mark

      P.S. In my opinion, copywriter's should cherish the opportunity to give their feedback - IF they really have something to say about the copy that gets posted. This forum is about creating awareness about the art of copywriting. Sometimes the most insanely valuable insights are triggered in the feedback process. So from that perspective, it's totally appropriate for THIS forum to accept and engage in requests for feedback. Again though, most people won't truly value the information they receive unless they pay for it.
      We so agree with Reflection Marketing. Not sure if Mr. Says or the copywriter gets the $20, but overall the solution looks like a win-win.

      Meanwhile just sayin', we correctly-priced copywriters who've been doing direct response etc. since before the Internet can clearly see how this entitlement mentality comes so easily to those expecting (and then even shelving) free critiques. The advent of the Internet and then the proliferation of self-proclaimed "copywriters" who think they can write, have never studied the art of copywriting, can barely handle the English language (native-born or not), and charge jawdroppingly little have cheapened the perceived value of the pro copywriter and his product in the eyes of too many. And so, not only is the copywriter too often taken for granted; so is the free critique.

      IMHO, Reflection Marketing's rationale makes sense.

      Best,
      MBDirect
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    What im saying the problem is, when we dont post a critique the thread starter keeps bumping it until someone feels sorry for them and away we go again.

    Virtually every critique request gets critiqued so what has been suggested doesnt work particularly well. Eventually someone cries enough to get a critique and at the end of the day attention and time is given to critiques over regular posts.

    What it comes down to is that every critique request is still going to get attention and clutter up our forum - good high quality content posts are going to get pushed down and not discussed.

    Im sure you guys have seen the situations when no one critiques, the response is "anyone? anyone" "Hey can anyone please critique this?" "PLEASE somebody?"

    Then it starts again, every comment gets reuped by the thread starter to get it up in the forum and get critiques. What has been suggested doesnt solve the problem because eventually someone gets guilted into it and continues the cycle of clutter and pushing down high quality content based discussions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Grain
    I missed out the Copywriter's Board a few
    years ago it might seem.

    Copywriting Discussion - Copywriters Board

    Only way left to access the gold in them.

    Would be awesome if the CW forum had
    that amount of value flowing.
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  • Profile picture of the author CharismaticMannequin
    I agree. People are totally lazy.

    They ask the same questions over and over. It's incredibly annoying.


    A sub-forum would be the best thing for this forum.


    Ben.
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  • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
    For me the Copywriting Forum is by far the best forum on the WF. There's a lot of great information here...and it's instructive to read and learn.

    From that point of view the criquites are a PITA.

    On the other foot though, what of the scenario of someone who doesn't have the cash to get a professional critique? What do they do? (And how much would a professional critique cost anyhow?)

    For example, the day that Mark posted originally, I was going to post the script for a video sales letter I'm working on for critique and improvement. But after reading his post - and in principle agreeing with it - I didn't post it.

    Either a sub forum would be the obvious solution. Or qualify the critiques - say people asking for a critique have to pay $50 or $100 to a charity voted by the Copywriting Forum as the 'charity of choice.' That way you filter out the not serious (hopefully).

    (Also from an implementation point of view, the person submitting the letter for critiquing is far more likely to take action if they've invested cold, hard cash).

    Just my thoughts.



    Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by paul wolfe View Post

      (And how much would a professional critique cost anyhow?)

      Paul
      Typically from about $250 Paul.

      Best,


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        Typically from about $250 Paul.

        Best,


        Mark Andrews
        Thanks Mark.

        That's less than I expected.

        My video sales letter script is based on the "Crazy 8" formula from the Ken Strong benefit WSO - who might be a good person to approach about getting a critique given that information?



        Paul
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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
          Originally Posted by paul wolfe View Post

          My video sales letter script is based on the "Crazy 8" formula from the Ken Strong benefit WSO - who might be a good person to approach about getting a critique given that information?
          You could approach me if you like, but I had nothing to do with the sales copy for that event. I'm not actually sure who wrote it, but I assume it was Brian McLeod and/or David Garfinkel, the guys who put the event on (many thanks!). I have no idea if either of them are available for critiques, though.

          EDIT: Just remembered - it was Jimmy Curley, one of the participants, who did the excellent copy for that.
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          • Profile picture of the author paul wolfe
            Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

            You could approach me if you like, but I had nothing to do with the sales copy for that event. I'm not actually sure who wrote it, but I assume it was Brian McLeod and/or David Garfinkel, the guys who put the event on (many thanks!). I have no idea if either of them are available for critiques, though.

            EDIT: Just remembered - it was Jimmy Curley, one of the participants, who did the excellent copy for that.
            Ken

            I know the benefit was for you../are you a video salesletter copywriter?


            Paul
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            • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
              Originally Posted by maximus242 View Post

              What im saying the problem is, when we dont post a critique the thread starter keeps bumping it until someone feels sorry for them and away we go again.
              If somebody bumps their own thread more than once, or starts a duplicate thread because they didn't get enough responses, use the "Report Post" button and it will go away.

              Originally Posted by CharismaticMannequin View Post

              I agree. People are totally lazy.

              They ask the same questions over and over. It's incredibly annoying.
              This is true in every single section of the forum. It's just as annoying everywhere else as it is here.

              Originally Posted by paul wolfe View Post

              Ken

              I know the benefit was for you../are you a video salesletter copywriter?

              Paul
              Yes, but I'll send you a PM, we don't need to discuss it in the thread.
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              • Profile picture of the author David Mcalorum
                Its pretty simple.

                All you have to do is read a whole bunch of sales letters,
                practice practice practice.... Read some books on copywriting,
                practice some more, read some more sales copy, then some more
                books on copywriting, practice some more...

                THEN if you get stuck...

                Use the search feature!

                Or you can even consult the sticky posts.

                Asking for a critique should be the last option.
                The entitlement attitude that lots of people have
                is pretty ridiculous.

                Most copywriters actually charge money for a critique.

                I too, stick my vote in the hat and call for, beg, PLEAD
                for a sub forum! And maybe even make it paid, like that
                one thread was talking about not too long ago.

                Just my two cents.
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          • Profile picture of the author debml
            Originally Posted by Ken Strong View Post

            You could approach me if you like, but I had nothing to do with the sales copy for that event. I'm not actually sure who wrote it, but I assume it was Brian McLeod and/or David Garfinkel, the guys who put the event on (many thanks!). I have no idea if either of them are available for critiques, though.

            EDIT: Just remembered - it was Jimmy Curley, one of the participants, who did the excellent copy for that.
            David does very thorough and systematic critiques for a fee.
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  • Profile picture of the author BarryADensa
    Critiquing serves 2 functions, which keeps the phenomenon alive and kicking:

    1. The critiquee receives FREE copywriting expertise, which from the critiquees POV is obviously a great deal. He/she doesn't have to pay a professional who normally charges for a full-fledged critique (I include myself in that group). Second, it's obviously cheaper than paying a copywriter to write the ad in the first place.

    So there is no impediment to marketers coming here or to any forum and acting liking gnats on a warm summer night. We are open jars of honey to marauding bears.

    2. Critiquers, by providing critiques, satisfy one or two or both of the following self-serving objectives: 1) they exhibit their knowledge and craft in the hope of being recognized and employed either by the critiquees or others. 2) They have a lot of time to kill and enjoy offering an opinion (this might be considered altruistic, but in the last analysis it is still self-serving).

    If this board is to serve strictly as a virtual mastermind group for copywriters... which I agree it should be.

    It/we can explicitly state somewhere somehow that requests for critiques will not be honored. Barring that, a sub-forum could be created, as agreed to and granted by the powers that be.

    If such a forum cannot will not be formed than the simple alternative is to simply ignore requests for critiques, if that is what the board wants (as determined by whom?) -- or work out some sort of arrangement with said powers that be -- that payment should be made. (As any marketer knows a deal is stuck only when two sides to the deal both receive what they want at a fair and reasonable price).

    One thing though is clear -- complaining about it without following up with a clear and easy to follow call to action will only perpetuate posts like this and the requests for free critiques.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    When I wrote my first online sales letter many moons ago, I posted
    it on a then popular marketing forums (paid) and got some great
    suggestions. I took most of them and improved the letter. So the
    same way others help me I want to help others as well.

    On the Copywriters Board ran by Fortin most the critiques were
    asked by copywriters of other copywriters as to get a third eye
    on the copy and a kind of brainstorming to help improve the
    copy.

    For this forum most, if not all, of the critiques are requested by
    non-copywriters who want to improve their letter so there is
    always a give by the copywriters and a get by the requester.

    This makes the giving of critiques by copywriters a little unique
    on the forum. No one asks article writers to write an article
    for them, or a graphic artist to do a banner, or SEO expert
    to optimize a page for them. The point is that these are
    all paid services AND so is giving critiques.

    I have service where I offer critiques for a fee and also
    do this for my copywriting coaching students. It takes
    time and effort.

    I don't know if a sub-forum will be the solution or making
    a new rule to stop asking for critiques (like asking for
    review copies in the WSO section) but a balance must
    be reached somewhere lest this section becomes a
    critique request fest.

    I generally would give a critique if I sense that some
    effort was made on behalf of the requester and they
    can't afford a copywriter--by implication or admission.

    Sometimes I sense that the person is not really asking
    for a critique but rather trying to get some free traffic.
    How do I know? They usually defend any suggestions
    that are made about the sales letter.

    Yet, no one compels me to do this, so each copywriter
    has a choice in this regard.

    A forum is a place to discuss and help each other. If it
    appears too one-way then the model breaks down.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author Anthony707
    Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

    These days (and for some time now) almost the entire 1st page is just filled up with one critique request after another. Which wouldn't be so bad if at least some bloomin' effort was put into many of the sales pitches. Unfortunately, the majority of them are just mind bogglingly crap. .


    Mark Andrews
    Good points Mark.

    The online marketing arena is seeing more and more people wanting an easy fix to build a profitable business with little effort on their part.

    I'd be surprised though if someone here hasn't offered a paid critique service? If not, maybe they should as there appears to be quite a demand.

    By the way, can someone critique this for me?

    Just kidding!

    Anthony
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  • Profile picture of the author mrniceguy321
    Hey Mark, I just got your little wiseguy comment on my post asking for feedback on my sales copy. It appears that being a "guru" on this little forum has you feeling a little high and mighty.

    First of all, if critique requests were no longer accepted, it should be stated. I put ALOT of time and effort into my sales copy.

    Regarding your comments of "why don't you offer something to the forum before asking for help..." If you must know, I already had a login for this forum, but I was unable to get the forgot password feature to work right, so I created a new one.

    I kindly ask that you take into consideration other people's feelings and hard work before you make such distasteful statements.

    Forums are put in place for people to seek help on topics. I was VERY offended by your smart a** comment, and I don't think it was necessary at all.

    If you're so tired of people asking for critiques, just make a statement asking for people to not post critique requests altogether.

    You don't know me personally, so please be mindful before you make comments like that to people you don't know. You never know just how angry someone might get in response to something like that.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by mrniceguy321 View Post

      Hey Mark, I just got your little wiseguy comment on my post asking for feedback on my sales copy. It appears that being a "guru" on this little forum has you feeling a little high and mighty.

      First of all, if critique requests were no longer accepted, it should be stated. I put ALOT of time and effort into my sales copy.

      Regarding your comments of "why don't you offer something to the forum before asking for help..." If you must know, I already had a login for this forum, but I was unable to get the forgot password feature to work right, so I created a new one.

      I kindly ask that you take into consideration other people's feelings and hard work before you make such distasteful statements.

      Forums are put in place for people to seek help on topics. I was VERY offended by your smart a** comment, and I don't think it was necessary at all.

      If you're so tired of people asking for critiques, just make a statement asking for people to not post critique requests altogether.

      You don't know me personally, so please be mindful before you make comments like that to people you don't know. You never know just how angry someone might get in response to something like that.
      Then that's your problem.

      Deal with it.


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author Grain
    Just going to bump this up so the fresh
    critique requesters can see this.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Grain View Post

      Just going to bump this up so the fresh
      critique requesters can see this.
      Thanks Grain.

      A timely reminder again since already they're creeping back in on a very regular basis.

      If you're looking for a critique please read this thread first...

      http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...-critique.html


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author SpankinNewbie
    What about those of us who are here to learn? I wrote a sort of fictitious sales letter (one that I will send out as sort of a test to see if it pulls response) and asked for a critique. All I want is some guaidance. Then I read this thread and changed the title to "Please do not critique this" because I did not want to offend anyone. But I still got replies from some very helpful people. I read everything I can find and put in effort. Is this not the right forum for people wanting to learn copy writing? How did you guys get started? Did you crawl from the crib and start writing great copy or did you ask questions and study and practice?

    Now I agree that it isn't fair to expect anyone to do the work for you. I would never put up a website or landing page and ask anyone to "Critique" (short for rewrite my crap so I can make money at the expense of your expertise) but, I feel that what I am doing is really useful not only for me but anyone wanting to learn the trade. I started with a really terrible sales letter and now am in the process, with the help of some very smart people here, to revise it step by step and then post the progress. In the end, I hope to have a sales letter worthy of the approval of the gurus here. What a great learning opportunity for me and any coming behind me.

    Maybe threads like mine should be appended with "learning thread" and that way everyone knows what to expect.

    Sorry for the rant. I'm a newbie that needs to be smacked sometimes but I was really offended after reading some of the comments here. I really felt cheapened but I know that was not the intent of most.

    This is a great place with a lot of great people and I don't want to burn any bridges so please help me. What is the function of this forum? Is it only for ordained gurus or is it for anyone with a desire to better themselves and learn copy writing?

    Thanks,

    SpankinNewbie
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      The purpose of this forum is to discuss copywriting. It's original intention / purpose was not designed for this section to become nothing more than a critique section.

      You know, I can't think of one other single forum which has the huge amount of experience this one has when it comes to copywriting, probably the most important skill you can have in business.

      Here you've got copywriters who have made a veritable fortune for their clients (hundreds of millions of dollars all told) and combine all their years experience together... you're looking at probably no less than 250-300 years combined experience here at least.

      We don't mind people asking for critiques as such, just so long as they put some effort into their work. But lately...

      ...near 95% of the critique requests - the sales copy looks like it was just flung together in about 5 minutes flat.

      When there's this constant barrage of these type of critique requests, it really dilutes what this entire sub forum was originally about.

      Not only that but some can't even be bothered to say please anymore...

      "Please would you be kind enough to take a look at my sales copy to offer me your opinions?" No, several of them just seem to expect to be handed everything to them on a plate. They don't want to put in any of the work themselves. They just expect and demand everyone else to do all the donkey work for them.

      It wouldn't be so bad if many more people asking for critiques said something along the lines of...

      "In exchange for offering me your help and advice, I'll give you this as a way to express my thanks and appreciation." Or, "For everyone who donates of their time and expertise to help me, I'll donate $5 to a charity of your choice." Now that would be very refreshing to see.

      Unfortunately lately, it's just become take, take, take, take, take. And some well, they don't even offer the courtesy of a simple thanks afterwards not to mention, the copywriting pros offer all of their expert advice and the OP...

      ...nobody see's him or her again much less do they even make any effort whatsoever to implement any of the changes suggested.

      It irks us all no end often when this happens. In the end you just give up offering long critiques asking yourself, what's the bloomin' point in doing so anymore? There has to be something in it for me.

      After a while, as you no doubt can well imagine, this all royally gets on the copywriters nerves at times.

      This place I can tell you now, it's nowhere as near as good as it was 3-4 years ago.

      Back then you had pretty much every single copywriter worth their salt posting here. The exchange of information flying back and forth was priceless, an education in itself.

      I mean, the search button is up there on the navigation bar at the top of the forum. What's wrong with simply going there, clicking on Advanced Search, selecting the Copywriting Forum and doing your search for the answers / solutions which you need?

      How many more times do we all have to explain the absolute basics over and over and over and over again? Why should we do so? Did you know our time is valuable too? We're not the Citizens Advice Bureaux for pete's sake! If you want this high level degree of mentoring with our specialized knowledge, you're going to have to pay for it sooner or later. Just as you would when consulting with any other consultant in their chosen field.

      You wouldn't dream of walking up to a structural engineer for example and asking him to come and do a survey of your home or a home for sale you were interested in would you?

      You wouldn't dream of walking into a lawyers office, plonking yourself down in the seat opposite him or her and say to them, "Say what, how about giving me an hour of your professional time free of charge?" Such a notion is absurd, so why do all the greenhorns do it here? What have we got, some stamp on our foreheads in this section which say's I'm stupid, come take advantage of me or sommit?

      Wellll I mean for pete's sake, it's just unbelievable.

      Why should we give away what amounts to potentially thousands of dollars worth of advice each and every time, just because some greenhorn can't be bothered to seek out the solutions they're looking for and need?

      We've put in 10,000 hours. 20,000 hours. 30,000 hours and we're still doing this everyday.

      If we can put in this much effort, surely the many newbies here can pull their fingers out of their wotsits and put some bloomin' hard work in too? Or is this too much to ask for these days?

      Our knowledge, our experience wasn't handed to us on a plate either you know. Many of us have been through a baptism of fire to get to where we are today and I'm sorry but no, many of them (the older more established copywriters) they're not going to keep on being taken advantage of non-stop.

      If you want, if you truly want success... you're going to have to work for it just like everybody else has had to for years before you. That's how the world operates.

      You're not going to get everything you need because you or some newb just thinks it's their or your automatic right. You need to demonstrate through pro-active action a deep desire to learn this craft. You know as in - hard work, passion, dedication, time, learning how to ask the right questions to get the solutions you need to move you forwards to the next step.

      Can you even begin to imagine the sheer numbers of people who have gone though this forum in the last few years? 95% of them asking again and again the same old stuff.

      Some thought they were the bees knees, ran around flapping their arms in a great consternation for a month or two then promptly disappeared again. Two weeks later the story repeats itself. Meanwhile the stalwarts of the Copywriting Forum just... well, I guess, get a little tired of it all after a while - it gets boring, most dreadfully so in fact.

      If you can bring true passion to the table, a good fighting spirit, zest, unquestionable unbridled passion to this craft - fantastic! Bring it on. We all love to see that and strongly encourage it. But...

      ...weak as dishwater moaners, complainers, newbies who already think they know it all - oh pleaseee, give us all a break.

      There you have it. Spelled out.


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author Jennie Heckel
        Hi Mark,

        I have to admit you hit the nail smack dab on the head... You swing a hammer like Thor!

        I am glad you (and other professional copywriters) had the guts and took the time to post your opinions.

        The fact is, I used to post reviews of copy when requested on this forum...

        But after spending many hours of my time completing copy critique requests during the last two years -- I quit. Why? Because the rewards were slim to none.

        (Most people requesting a "free review" had no interest in hiring anyone to polish their copy. They just wanted their copy custom edited by the top copywriters right here. Why pay for a custom copy edit and polish if you can get it for free?)

        Then after a month or two I would feel guilty and get the urge contribute more on this forum.

        I would find a request for copy critique help, and do an in depth critique. I would take the time to explain why I made my suggestions so they would understand why the changes would improve the flow and ramp up the sizzle. Finally, I would sit and wait for a sincere thanks... and most of the time never receive one.

        So it is any wonder the copywriters that DO give of themselves stopped giving?

        I agree with Mark, and the other copywriters that responded. We need a subforum for critique requests.

        Then in order to post in the subforum to request a critique it should cost them something. That way they would get their "tail in gear" to learn how to write copy better before asking someone else to critique it (i.e. rewrite it for free.)

        No one should expect a free critique.

        This forum is training them that it is "OK" to get a free critique. This is negatively training them not pay a copywriter for their expertise. The problem is many times the critiques a person would receive for free were (when combined) almost a complete sales letter!

        If we had a "Copy Critique Subforum" this would boost the value of the critiques they recieve as the people in the subforum would be there soley for critiques and discussions about critiques and how to edit copy.

        Plus Warriors would be able to find info for critiques all in one place so they would not have to search though thousands of posts to get the info they are seeking.

        As professional copywriters, we have all spent thousands if not tens of thousands on our education. Why continue to give it away for free without someone benefiting from our advice? The idea of a charity fund donation is better than free.

        So to stop the rampant disintegration of the true purpose of this forum I agree the subforum would be the best way to go.

        I think that would be a win -- win all around.

        Just think how much more interaction there would be because the copywriters that want to discuss conversion strategies, video sales letters copy, subliminal copy techniques, new copy formatting techniques -- would feel like logging in again and checking the newest posts out.

        They would be energized and looking for posts on what "cool things are happening in the copywriting industry" to boost their copywriting businesses profits without having to waste their valuable time wading through tons of critique requests.

        Everyone on this forum would start posting more of the things they want to discuss in a "critique free' environment. I know I would.

        On the flip side...

        The entry level copywriters and people that are working on their own copy and asking for critiques would have their own subforum and could feel more confident about the quality of the critiques they receive.

        The people who wanted a critique would also have a friendlier subforum so they would not be as hesitant to request a critique too. (I did notice some negative comments on that front and this would eliminate that problem.)

        More resources for beginning copywriters could be listed there too. So this would help prevent the problem of the duplicate requests for the same info over and over.

        In the end people in need of copy requests would feel less threatened. Entry level copywriters who are fishing for a job could showcase their critique talents there too.

        But the biggest plus IS... And the rest of the professional copywriters would be able to return THIS forum to a discussion of copy techniques and copywriting business building practices as it was originally intended to be.

        Just my thoughts...

        Jennie
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    @Mark, @Jennie, +1. You've both made some good points.

    As Mark points out, the problem is not necessarily that critiques are asked for, it's that the copy to be reviewed often looks like it was thrown together in 5 minutes with little thought or attention to the basics.

    As Jennie says, for more accomplished copywriters, that gets tiresome quickly.

    So as SpankinNewbie mentions, people posting critique requests can expect anything from outright hostility to helpful comments, and everything in between.

    The "Read this before asking for a critique" message can be pointed out repeatedly, but as long as it is free and easy to ask for a valuable critique, many will try anyway (and many will inevitably be using half-baked 5-minute copy, too).

    It appears that it's definitely time for a separate critiques forum, as Jennie advocates, or perhaps to limit review requests to those with 50 postings or more. By the time people have 50 worthwhile postings, they should have some idea of what they are doing. If not, they may be in the wrong business.

    If a way to charge for critique requests (for charitable donations) could be easily done, that might work as well as a minimum prior posts limit. However, that may cause an expectation of a guaranteed review.

    IMO, the reality is that unless this "crappy copy critique" problem is addressed one way or another, amateur elementary copywriters are going to keep asking for free reviews. This could drive away the older, more experienced copywriters that everyone learns from, so I hope that isn't allowed to happen.

    Not all requests are of this sort, but too many of them are.

    We could blame that entitlement mentality on current society, or any of a hundred and one other thngs, but what's more important is what is done about it, because it's not going to go away.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
    I'm still not understanding why it's so difficult to simply ignore those threads if you don't want to critique them.

    As of this writing, I count 12 critique threads out of 60 on the first page of this forum. That's one out of every five threads, on average. Shouldn't be that big a deal to just jump over the threads you're not interested in. That's what we have to do in every other part of this forum, and every other forum.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        Just making a point Ken. Sometimes simply ignoring an issue is not the best option. Listening to your customers wants and needs is more important.
        I'm just another "customer" in this section offering my opinion. In my opinion, ignoring the issue is the best option in this case. Just my opinion.

        If you're making a point, you realize that there's exactly one person you should be making it to? And I have no idea how to get ahold of him. So good luck.

        PS I counted 12 copy critique requests not 5. That's one in every five new threads started asking for a critique of one kind or another. A full 20%.
        Yes, that's exactly what I said.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alex Ceskavich
    Get a client, you hippies ;-)

    - Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    You guys are missing something very important - very often its not the person asking for a critique that gets the most out of it. Its the drive-bys. And the people with more than half a brain.

    So these critiques/opinions we post can be really helpful to others. You only have to look at the "Thanks" to see that.

    Yes there's a lot of dopes and ingrates asking for critiques. Yes they often ignore good advice. Yes they often get the hump when you tell them their stuff is rubbish. So what?

    I've had plenty of people tell me the critiques are very helpful and ENTERTAINING. So I hope they keep coming and I'll contribute whenever I have the time and inclination.

    As for paying for a critique? Huh? On a forum? I belong to a few forums and I get FREE advice on all sorts of stuff - Mercedes Benz, Dragon yachts, surfing, skiing. And I give back FREE advice - thats the very nature of a forum. Look it up - Forum: A medium for open discussion or voicing of ideas.

    While we're on the topic of forums. Ever heard of Godwin's Law?
    Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion—regardless of topic or scope—someone inevitably criticizes some point made in the discussion by comparing it to beliefs held by Hitler and the Nazis.
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  • Profile picture of the author alfid
    Completely agree with you, "The Copy Nazi".
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