Back Again - Need another sales letter critique!!!

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  • Profile picture of the author roley
    Let me understand this.

    Your a copywriter asking for a critique on whether or not your copy is good?

    If your asking that, should you really be offering copywriting services?

    Its like a person saying they can sing and teach others how to sing, and then turning to people for help on how to sing.

    There is BIG difference between copywriting and writing, I wish people would understand that.
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    • Originally Posted by roley View Post

      Let me understand this.

      Your a copywriter asking for a critique on whether or not your copy is good?

      If your asking that, should you really be offering copywriting services?

      Its like a person saying they can sing and teach others how to sing, and then turning to people for help on how to sing.

      There is BIG difference between copywriting and writing, I wish people would understand that.
      Thanks for the drive-by. If you knew anything about her background, she is a full-time writer making the transition to copywriting.

      To facilitate that she spent thousands of dollars to study the best in the business. Then practiced and studied longer than most college careers. Then came here for direction and guidance from copywriters, some of whom are generating hundreds of thousands of dollars for their clients.

      Then she took action on that guidance which is more than what 90% are willing to do. Now she is asking for feedback on her WSO copy to make sure it is tight before launch, which again is more than you can say about most WSO copy I read.

      There's a BIG difference between dreaming and taking action. This is an action-taker.
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      Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
      - Jack Trout
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      • Profile picture of the author SMSWriter
        Thanks, Joe. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

        @roley:

        Let me understand this. You are responding to a request for a critique and not actually critiquing the copy?

        If you haven't read the copy, should you even bother offering your opinion on something you haven't read?

        Your analogy is flawed. I am not offering to 'teach' copywriting. I am a writer making a transition to copywriting and want to ensure that I've incorporated the right elements in my sales page copy.

        The fact that I am new to copywriting and looking to gain experience is mentioned in the letter, which you obviously didn't bother to read.

        There is a BIG difference between offering constructive criticism and blowing hot air, I wish people would understand that.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Originally Posted by roley View Post

          Let me understand this.

          Your a copywriter asking for a critique on whether or not your copy is good?

          If your asking that, should you really be offering copywriting services?

          Its like a person saying they can sing and teach others how to sing, and then turning to people for help on how to sing.

          There is BIG difference between copywriting and writing, I wish people would understand that.
          Originally Posted by Joe Ditzel View Post

          Thanks for the drive-by. If you knew anything about her background, she is a full-time writer making the transition to copywriting.

          To facilitate that she spent thousands of dollars to study the best in the business. Then practiced and studied longer than most college careers. Then came here for direction and guidance from copywriters, some of whom are generating hundreds of thousands of dollars for their clients.

          Then she took action on that guidance which is more than what 90% are willing to do. Now she is asking for feedback on her WSO copy to make sure it is tight before launch, which again is more than you can say about most WSO copy I read.

          There's a BIG difference between dreaming and taking action. This is an action-taker.
          Sorry Joe but I'm with Roley on this one, it struck me as a little odd to say the very least and especially coming from someone with a few years writing experience.

          As for the sales copy itself... it's very wishy washy and weak. If this is supposed to be a prime example of one's copywriting prowess - it fails big time.

          It's back to the drawing board for you Shanen. You need to scrap this and start over again.

          You've been studying the copywriting greats for a long time? And spent thousands of dollars too to learn as much as you can about copywriting?

          Really?

          Well, I'm sorry but this certainly isn't demonstrated here. This 'sales copy' (if one can call it that) it's all over the place.

          Far more that's wrong with it as opposed to what's right with it.

          From the preheader into the main headline into your deck, your body (where your main thrust should be) to your direct call to action... it's insipid and completely uninspiring throughout.

          Will it convert? I highly doubt it.

          You're just not hitting on the emotion here.

          You need to stick a piece of dynamite underneath this, blow it up to smithereens and start over again. Seriously... this looks like it was flung together in no more than an hour or so. I've seen complete newbies do better.

          Don't mean to be a downer but I'd be lying to you Shanen if I told you this was an excellent piece of sales copy coming from a new copywriter. Far from it, it's not by any stretch of the imagination.

          Dare I say it, it's absolutely awful.

          Got to be realistic lass. Sorry.

          Hint... try to be a little more original next time.

          Mark Andrews
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          • Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

            Sorry Joe but I'm with Roley on this one, it struck me as a little odd to say the very least and especially coming from someone with a few years writing experience.
            Swing and a miss. Note that I didn't say anything about the copy. I limited my comments to his/her assessment which I believe were just a drive-by shot at her efforts to improve and move forward. Set up those wickets again.
            Signature
            Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
            - Jack Trout
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            • Profile picture of the author SMSWriter
              Thanks Joe and Mark,

              If it sucks, then it sucks, but I find that conversation a lot more useful than 'why are you asking for feedback'.

              Alright. So it's back to the drawing board...
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Joe Ditzel View Post

              Swing and a miss. Note that I didn't say anything about the copy. I limited my comments to his/her assessment which I believe were just a drive-by shot at her efforts to improve and move forward. Set up those wickets again.
              Whatever you're intimating here Joe just flew straight off over the top of my head.


              Mark Andrews
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              • Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

                Whatever you're intimating here Joe just flew straight off over the top of my head.
                Mark Andrews
                Let me try again. If her copy sucks, she'll get that feedback and can make adjustments from there. My problem is taking shots (unrelated to the actual copy) at someone that has shown they are working hard and is willing to take criticism. This contrasts with several critique requests I've seen where the requester has done nothing and is obviously trying to get copywriters on the forum to do all their work for them.

                As far as the supposed sin of a copywriter asking for feedback on their copy, she explained she was new and breaking in to the profession.

                I don't have a problem with tough copy criticism. I encourage it.
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                Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
                - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author momtraders
    can someone kindly tell me why my post got deleted? I thought I was very helpful to her? Did I do something wrong? I would appreciate some feedback.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by momtraders View Post

      can someone kindly tell me why my post got deleted? I thought I was very helpful to her? Did I do something wrong? I would appreciate some feedback.
      You posted a self promotional link to your own website. Tacked it onto the end of your last reply hence the reason it was deleted.


      Mark Andrews
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by momtraders View Post

      can someone kindly tell me why my post got deleted? I thought I was very helpful to her? Did I do something wrong? I would appreciate some feedback.
      because you're spamming the forum all over the place with self promotional posts and links to your site
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  • Profile picture of the author momtraders
    oh, ok...Also, (FYI) the link is not to promote my business, that page is dead, it really was to give her some ideas.

    anyhow here is what I said minus the link.

    I agree that the copy is weak. Sorry, but it was really hard to follow, and not really enticing.
    BUT.. I don't really know much, I have only wrote a few copy's in my time and not really ever considered them WOW.. ya know? so don't give up, but believe more in yourself.
    A great angle to tap... The "you simply don't want to write the copy"... Instead of trying to convince me that your copy will make me more business, just hit me where I am weak. LAZINESS! Yeah, put it out there.. kind of like this... Seriously, why write the copy when you don't have to? Just let me do it, skip right over it's. only $__.. whatever your price is. CUZ and here is the cuz.. if you can't persuade me, you sure as **** can tell me I get lazy, overwhelmed and simply let something like my copy slide. So yeah I would open my wallet if you where in my face... Not in a rude way, but like come on why do it if you dont have to way. See what I am saying?

    Goodluck
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    • Profile picture of the author SMSWriter
      Thanks, momtraders. I get where you're coming from, but although I definitely know that some folks want the convenience of having a service to create autoresponders, many have earnestly tried and just haven't been successful. So that's why I wanted to appeal to the fact that they could have a better shot if someone 'outside' the business took a look and wrote the copy.

      But all in all, your point is a valid one...

      Thanks,
      Shanen
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      • Top Secret – Special Message to Shanen For Her Eyes Only.

        Whispers to Shanen… reading some of the threads...


        Did anyone ever tell you that being a copywriter means you’re prone to assassination attacks?

        Not from clients but from other copywriters.

        They seem to feel it’s OK to do this – maybe it’s so much easier than saying…

        “Hey Shanen, I think your copy could be improved, here's a few suggestions…”


        Steve

        P.S. In case anyone else's eyes see this. And before you target the AK47's on me.

        Anyway I'm bullet proof - 28 years in the game - gives me diplomatic protection (at least I hope so lol).

        Shanen is a valuable member of our fabulous community.

        After extensive studying she's moving into the wonderful world of copywriting. Her posts will greatly help her and other new copywriters. All the more if she gets professional expert opinions. Rather than being pummelled into the ground.

        She has already helped people with their critiques giving some excellent ideas.

        And she wasn't asking much to get a bit of constructive advice on hers.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Problem was Steve I couldn't find anything good to say about it. Believe you me I tried but it just wasn't there. It was extremely mediocre at best.

          Now if you'd rather I had lied just to tickle her ears to tell her what a blinding piece of sales copy it was despite the fact that it wasn't, well... I wasn't about to do that.

          And the advice as you so succinctly put it... it wasn't an assassination or a pummelling (talk about gross exaggeration on your part) it was just truthful.

          Would you rather I give advice to just waste others people's time, tell them what isn't so just to be seen to be encouraging for the sake of it?

          Or... giving honest extremely down to earth advice which ultimately could help her to improve her game and her conversion rate?

          Well Steve?


          Mark Andrews
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          • Mr Andrews,

            To be honest I can’t comment on the copy because she’s deleted it.

            Or your suggestion of putting a "piece of dynamite underneath this, blow it up to smithereens" had it's effect.

            Anyway…

            Copywriting is tough, as you know it takes time to get good at it.

            Shanen is full of enthusiasm with a real passion in becoming a great copywriter.

            In the past she's taken the advice and used it. And has always been very appreciative for the help.

            And she's willingly helped others.

            So, rather than demolish whatever she wrote on this post.

            You could have said, “Just do this, this, this and that and it’ll be fixed”

            Yes, it would have taken a few moments of your valuable time.

            But she would have gained a huge amount of knowledge.


            Steve
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

              Mr Andrews,

              To be honest I can’t comment on the copy because she’s deleted it.

              Or your suggestion of putting a "piece of dynamite underneath this, blow it up to smithereens" had it's effect.

              Anyway…

              Copywriting is tough, as you know it takes time to get good at it.

              Shanen is full of enthusiasm with a real passion in becoming a great copywriter.

              In the past she's taken the advice and used it. And has always been very appreciative for the help.

              And she's willingly helped others.

              So, rather than demolish whatever she wrote on this post.

              You could have said, “Just do this, this, this and that and it’ll be fixed”

              Yes, it would have taken a few moments of your valuable time.

              But she would have gained a huge amount of knowledge.


              Steve
              Thank you for your critique of my critique Steve.

              I'm sorry, I just wasn't aware I asked for one I say exceedingly drily.

              What do you think I did?

              What do you think 'blowing it up up smithereens, going back to the drawing board and starting again' actually means?

              Would you like me to rephrase this just for your benefit?

              Okay, here goes...

              For someone who purports to be extremely interested in copywriting (where have I heard that line before?) the sales copy was about as dull and uninspiring as it's possible to get.

              Nothing unique about it in the slightest.

              Nothing to get excited about.

              Nothing whatsoever within it to elicit the kind of emotional response she desires.

              No storyline. Nothing to latch onto. No USP.

              Good enough for you?

              What do you want me to do next? Dissect it sentence by sentence perhaps? Would this be good enough for you Steve?

              Or are you capable of reading between the lines with said advice given initially (and now a second time) which was actually intended to help her to up her game in the first place? Maybe not. It does make me scratch my head and wonder.

              And some people actually wonder why near every single copywriter who has been in the game for years with a multitude of successes behind them is loathe to giving away free copywriting critiques in this section of the forum.

              Now I wonder... why this might be?

              Could it be perhaps because they're simply far more trouble than they're actually worth?

              Other newbies (and others) chiming in to ridicule whatever advice the top copywriters here have so often in the past given away completely for free.

              Free advice intended to help out the OP and to help him or her from completely wasting their precious time.

              Hey Steve, if you've got something better to add to this potential copywriter (and good on her for trying) say, why don't you contact her and mentor her for free just like I'm doing with somebody else at the moment?

              Wouldn't that be a swell idea?

              Or maybe you're just too darn busy and would rather take 30 seconds potshots at other professional copywriters instead who have actually given of their time and expertise hundreds upon hundreds of times in the past?


              Mark Andrews
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              • Mr Andrews,

                I didn't critique your critique. And I couldn't critique Shanens. Because your critique - critiqued it.

                I did try and critique my critique on the critique that I didn't critique. But I got confused.

                So...

                For goodness sake calm down.

                It's like a volcano has erupted in SW England.

                If you don't want to - and if they upset you so much - don't blow your blood pressure of the scale - just stop giving any critiques.


                BTW - in the time it took you to critique the critique you thought I critiqued but didn't.

                You could easily have "fixed" Shanens copy for her. With a really good critique.

                Now go and enjoy the beautiful cornish countryside and relax.

                And don't critique or think this is a critique.


                Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author markpocock
    Steve - LMFAO.

    It's actually just started to rain in Cornwall....

    Mark
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    And have the secrets A-List Copywriters - David Garfinkel & Parris Lampropoulos
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  • Profile picture of the author NickN
    Mark is just filling the "Curmudgeonly Copywriter" role in the Copy Nazi's absence. Someone's gotta do it!
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
    Hi Steve,

    I agree with you.

    Just remember Mark Andrews' opinion is just that...his opinion.

    I remember a good saying..."nothing means anything unless you make it something."
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