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After 2 years in Im in convinced the most important skill is copywriting!

by bigballin6161
21 replies
I started out learning SEO, then product creation, then building email lists. It always comes back to burn me that I end up knowing that I need to learn how to do some decent copywriting! I know I will never be a pro, but is there any recommended materials for squeeze pages and autoresponder messages? It seems to me if you are a good copywriter then over half the IM battle is won...
#convinced #copywriting #important #skill #years
  • Profile picture of the author Doceye
    Big Ball,

    It's common respect to edit posts (especially your head) when addressing a forum full of writers.

    It just doesn't reflect well upon you. And I'm fairly certain you're a swell person. It takes literally another 30 seconds to go over a post. And I'm amazed at how many here can't be bothered to do that.

    And please don't throw out that post-literate, if-you-just-try-you'll-get-what-I-mean argument.

    The idea is to write clearly and understandably. Not off-load that responsibility onto your reader.
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    • Profile picture of the author bigballin6161
      Originally Posted by Doceye View Post

      Big Ball,

      It's common respect to edit posts (especially your head) when addressing a forum full of writers.

      It just doesn't reflect well upon you. And I'm fairly certain you're a swell person. It takes literally another 30 seconds to go over a post. And I'm amazed at how many here can't be bothered to do that.

      And please don't throw out that post-literate, if-you-just-try-you'll-get-what-I-mean argument.

      The idea is to write clearly and understandably. Not off-load that responsibility onto your reader.
      Honestly I don't know what you are trying to say. What's wrong with my title? Or the rest of my post for that matter?
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Thompson
        Originally Posted by bigballin6161 View Post

        Honestly I don't know what you are trying to say. What's wrong with my title? Or the rest of my post for that matter?

        I'm afraid I too am at a loss. I completely understood your questions.

        Copywriting is indeed the most important skill you can learn in the selling game, which is what IM or any form of business really is.

        The best resources you can access for learning how to create exceptional squeeze and offer pages are available for free - right here at the Warrior Forum.

        You need to explore the emails that you receive from the "best" in IM from the guys who've been successful selling WSOs and ask you to opt in to their lists.

        Set up a special personal email address for these opt in offers and their following emails. It won't take very long for you to see which emailers are part of the successful group and those who just "pray and spray" their offers.

        You can imitate the successful group and build/change your own offers appropriately to see how well your results are improving.

        Testing is actually the key to it all. No one got to be a success without adapting their offer to the marketplace in numerous ways.

        It just takes time.

        I wish you the best.

        Daniel Thompson
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    • Profile picture of the author new2d
      Banned
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      • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
        Yes you have made a spelling mistake in your thread but it is not exactly rocket science to work out what it should say.

        Maybe you could change it just as I have done if you look.

        Dan
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  • Profile picture of the author wrcato2
    I use to sell on ebay and after a year or so I began to notice some of the big sellers were selling some of the same products and their auctions were bringing in 3 or four times as much as mine were. I began an investigation into their listings and found that most had a persuasive "something" in their listing.

    Then I began emailing these top sellers to find out what they were doing that I wasn't. After many weeks, I finally received my answer... "write like a copywriter", and the rest is history.

    Good luck
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    Bite Size Bets “How to Cash in Big Time Placing Small Bets - You're No-Cost Guide To Domain Investing."
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    • Profile picture of the author RedShifted
      Originally Posted by wrcato2 View Post

      I use to sell on ebay and after a year or so I began to notice some of the big sellers were selling some of the same products and their auctions were bringing in 3 or four times as much as mine were. I began an investigation into their listings and found that most had a persuasive "something" in their listing.

      Then I began emailing these top sellers to find out what they were doing that I wasn't. After many weeks, I finally received my answer... "write like a copywriter", and the rest is history.

      Good luck
      This is the SAME exact thing that happened to me.

      I was competing with an ebay seller many years ago, selling music samples that I made on my access virus ti. While I'm busy talking in my listings about how long it took to make these samples, how much experience I have.. I notice a seller doing NONE of this and getting an incredible response on his listings.

      My mind is boggled, I go look at his listings and what do I see? A picture of a half naked woman with headphones covering her nipples. I think "what the hell is going on here? - music producers can't be that dumb?"

      As I'm at his listing, I notice I keep staring at this half naked woman, and of course he's got the name of his samples on the image too. It becomes branded into my brain.

      I still think "ok a ploy for attention, it obviously works,, but I STILL don't understand". So I get to his listing, notice this guy is NOT talking about his experience as a producer. He's not making it the central selling point of his listing like I was.

      What he did however was he ripped midi files from some of the worlds most popular (and emotional) trance tracks, and put HIS music samples in those midi files. So basically he was showcasing his samples, in other peoples famous work (just the melodies). Completely legal/ethical to do in music as this is how all remixes start.

      I later realized there was a lot of NLP in his listings, and so I smartened up. I started digesting one NLP book after another, studying seduction gurus like "hypnotica" or "ross jeffries", reading david deangelo and what not.

      Anyway I totally stopped selling on ebay and got into seduction. Years later come back to ebay, put my same product up that never sold before, write the listing this time with some heavy NLP "anchors" in it.

      My product begins to sell.

      At this point I realize theres got to be more to this than just my favorite 3 gurus, and I discover the world of copywriting, warrior forum, dan kennedy, all the true "gurus" of the game.

      So now after years of studying NLP, I almost feel like a newbie again. I never understood copywriting to be an art form, and always focused more on specific NLP techniques, rather than how to apply them properly in my writing.

      Part of me has an excellent grasp of NLP, while another part of me knows nothing about copywriting. So I'm in a very weird position. I'm basically applying NLP more to marketing, targeting, calls to action, all the more formal aspects of copywriting.

      Now at least I feel like I've found the right "blueprint" so I'm excited to see how things change over the next year! Guess we shall see.

      -Red
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  • Profile picture of the author wrcato2
    The reason doceye, said what he said is because in your title you have a "in" instead of "I am".
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  • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
    Originally Posted by bigballin6161 View Post

    I started out learning SEO, then product creation, then building email lists. It always comes back to burn me that I end up knowing that I need to learn how to do some decent copywriting! I know I will never be a pro, but is there any recommended materials for squeeze pages and autoresponder messages? It seems to me if you are a good copywriter then over half the IM battle is won...
    Actually, marketing is the most important skill. Copywriting or (or having the skill to hire one) is further down the line. From Donald Trump to the average Guerrilla or Bum marketer it all comes down to who can market the best. I know a lot of good copywriters who are struggling.financially, go figure.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
      Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

      Actually, marketing is the most important skill. Copywriting or (or having the skill to hire one) is further down the line. From Donald Trump to the average Guerrilla or Bum marketer it all comes down to who can market the best. I know a lot of good copywriters who are struggling.financially, go figure.
      That's absolutely right. That's why we'll often see people higher up that know a lot less than the people below them - and it's usually because they are better at marketing themselves.

      The same principle applies to websites, EBay, affiliate marketing, and so on. Good copy helps a lot, but positioning and marketing are going to separate the winners from the rest.

      The best product, best copy, or fanciest website in the world won't do any good if nobody knows about them.
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      Learn more - earn more: Books for Copywriters
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

      Actually, marketing is the most important skill. Copywriting or (or having the skill to hire one) is further down the line. From Donald Trump to the average Guerrilla or Bum marketer it all comes down to who can market the best. I know a lot of good copywriters who are struggling.financially, go figure.
      You're brave to make a post like this in the Copywriting forum.

      In this forum Copywriting is the the most important skill.

      In the main forum Marketing is the most important skill.

      -Ray Edwards
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      The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        In this forum Copywriting is the the most important skill.

        In the main forum Marketing is the most important skill.
        Well, as Mark pointed out, freelance copywriters need to be good at marketing, but do freelance marketers need to be good at copywriting?

        Maybe in the copywriting forum, they could be equally important? As Andy mentioned, if there is no traffic, there are no results. If there is traffic, even crappy copy can generate *some* results. (Not the best results, of course, but at least something.)

        Perhaps one way to look at it is to say marketing and quality copywriting are like a horse and cart. You can ride the horse (marketing) alone, but will get a lot more done with the cart and horse together.
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      • Profile picture of the author The Niche Man
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        You're brave to make a post like this in the Copywriting forum.

        In this forum Copywriting is the the most important skill.

        In the main forum Marketing is the most important skill.

        -Ray Edwards
        Ha, Ha.
        I realize that's like walking into a Lions cage with steak underwear, but I have to call it like I've personally seen and experienced it. Nice copywriters ... nice copywriters.
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  • Profile picture of the author Michael Clough
    My friend is a big eBay seller, and man his copy writing is so damn great, he can sell the same thing over and over again thanks for this post!

    Mike
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    www.OptimisationSeo.com
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by bigballin6161 View Post

      What's wrong with my title?
      Does this seriously make sense to you? Really?

      "After 2 years in Im in convinced the most important skill is copywriting!"

      Cos sure as hell... it doesn't make one iota of sense to me and no doubt about it... a few others too feel the same way.

      Originally Posted by The Niche Man View Post

      Actually, marketing is the most important skill. Copywriting or (or having the skill to hire one) is further down the line. From Donald Trump to the average Guerrilla or Bum marketer it all comes down to who can market the best. I know a lot of good copywriters who are struggling.financially, go figure.
      No, you're wrong. What do you think a copywriter does? The two go hand in hand in fact.

      It's not who can market themselves better but who can communicate their benefits to best effect to their target market and this takes a dab hand at copywriting - salesmanship-in-print. Fact.

      What do you think marketing is? I'll tell you what it is in a nutshell... words. Words which connect to the readers or listeners emotions. Back round the loop - copywriting.

      You can't have one without the other.


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        It's not who can market themselves better but who can communicate their benefits to best effect to their target market and this takes a dab hand at copywriting - salesmanship-in-print. Fact.

        What do you think marketing is? I'll tell you what it is in a nutshell... words. Words which connect to the readers or listeners emotions. Back round the loop - copywriting.

        You can't have one without the other.
        What about the part of marketing that gets those words in front of that target market in the first place? If that doesn't happen, how can anything else happen, no matter how good the copy/benefits communication is?

        I guess it depends on how "marketing" is defined.
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        • Profile picture of the author Marc Rodill
          Originally Posted by Steve Hill View Post

          What about the part of marketing that gets those words in front of that target market in the first place? If that doesn't happen, how can anything else happen, no matter how good the copy/benefits communication is?

          I guess it depends on how "marketing" is defined.
          You're right. I, too, politely disagree with Mr. Andrews. Great marketing is far more important than great copywriting. Sure, they go hand in hand, and it's nice to have both, but without marketing, there's nobody around to see your copy. That makes the copy secondary.

          Plus, there's a lot more to good marketing than just words.

          Marc
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Steve Hill View Post

          I guess it depends on how "marketing" is defined.
          If you're a copywriter you're also a marketing professional. The two go hand in hand Steve.

          You can't have one without the other as I stated above.

          The two disciplines are very closely intertwined. Which is why employing a professional copywriter for your business campaign when combined with their marketing skills you have a quite lethal combination.

          Now a good marketer doesn't necessarily a copywriter make but (and here's the clincher)... anyone calling themselves a copywriter better be damn *hit hot good at marketing too.


          Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Warriors
    Somebody above said great marketing is more important than great copywriting.

    Though I basically agree with the sentiment, I think the logic is slightly flawed because copywriting is part of marketing. It's kind of like saying that cars are more important than wheels. You can't have one without the other.

    Anyway, on the whole, I don't think it's really possible to pinpoint one "most important skill" that applies in all areas of IM in all cases.

    Copywriting is typically very important...

    ... But what if you have no traffic?

    Obviously, what's most important depends on the specific case.
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  • Profile picture of the author MRMagMark
    Originally Posted by bigballin6161 View Post

    I started out learning SEO, then product creation, then building email lists. It always comes back to burn me that I end up knowing that I need to learn how to do some decent copywriting! I know I will never be a pro, but is there any recommended materials for squeeze pages and autoresponder messages? It seems to me if you are a good copywriter then over half the IM battle is won...
    This book has been recommended many times and is included in the "sticky" thread, "Top Copywriting Books... Ever". In fact, this book is the first one listed.

    Scientific Advertising by Claude C. Hopkins

    Attachment 13632

    The book is full of gems, but this is one of my favorites:

    Successful salesmen are rarely good speech makers. They have few oratorical graces. They are plain and sincere men who know their customers and know their lines. So it is in ad writing. Many of the ablest men in advertising are graduate salesmen. The best we know have been house-to-house canvassers. They may know little of grammar, nothing of rhetoric, but they know how to use words that convince.


    For me, nothing beats knowing your customer. Whatever it is you're selling, find the "hives" online (or offline) where your potential customer lives. Lurk on message boards. Look up books on Amazon that would attract your customer and read the reviews. (An excellent source for crafting copy, btw.) And if you have the opportunity to hold a free workshop in town, do so and ask them tons of questions. You'll learn from their feedback what they value and you can use their language in your copy, to boot.

    Copywriting is like looking for treasure. It's not just using words, but finding the right words and the right emotional triggers. To discover those emotional triggers, you have to get to know your customer very well: his hopes, fears, frustrations, dreams, etc. Some use fear in their copywriting (or the "Us vs. Them" scenario) and some use desire. No matter which trigger you use, test to see which works best.

    We're all a little like mad scientists, mixing our potions in a laboratory of language and concept, and then testing our concoctions on "test subjects" to see which one works the best. Trial and error.
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  • Profile picture of the author projectfreeagent
    Hello.. I am new on the copywriters forum and I know EXACTLY what you are saying.. I have come full circle as an IM over the last two years and I have done everything 'by hand'. Not only do I enjoy writing copy the most but it is also probably the single most important aspect of marketing.
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