Start earning what you're worth

32 replies
Every copywriter should give some serious thought to realizing the value of copywriting and fees that acknowledge this value.

Don't accept low fees. Here's a variation from an old tv commercial that fits: Good copywriting is a terrible thing to waste.

And that's exactly what you're doing when you write excellent copy at low rates.
#earning #start #worth
  • Profile picture of the author abugah
    Agreed.

    However, a copywriter facing the possibility of working for McDonalds would not listen to that. And I can tell you for a fact that most are facing tough times. After interacting with more than 2000 copywriters in the recent past, most are not busy, are poor at marketing themselves and have low self esteem.


    Take a look at what some have told me:


    ''There just isn't enough money in it to cover the cost however modest it may be. Sorry to be negative but that's how I see the situation.''


    ''Times are tough and getting tougher. My colleagues don't seem to be faring any better either.''


    By the way the 80/20 rule works also for copywriters. I guess 20% will work for peanuts.

    Let me clarify that I am not advocating for low fees-Just pointing out the reality on the ground.
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    • Originally Posted by abugah View Post



      ''Times are tough and getting tougher. My colleagues don't seem to be faring any better either.''


      It's true the economy obviously screwed a lot of people (and the recent jobs report here in the US wasn't good). However, one of the benefits of being 83 years old like I am is that I've been through a few recessions.

      When I sold radio and TV advertising my clients that were aggressive in a downturn always did better on the upside. Always. Now is the time for marketers and copywriters to take massive action.
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      Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Originally Posted by Joe Ditzel View Post

        It's true the economy obviously screwed a lot of people (and the recent jobs report here in the US wasn't good). However, one of the benefits of being 83 years old like I am is that I've been through a few recessions.

        When I sold radio and TV advertising my clients that were aggressive in a downturn always did better on the upside. Always. Now is the time for marketers and copywriters to take massive action.
        The pitch that's bringing in clients, including 2 chains of 5 star hotels,
        for me which is working it's magic right now is...

        "Seeing if I can get you a better deal".

        Works great in these times.

        Best,
        Ewen
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          What other copywriters charge and where is completely up to them personally Thomas.

          It has nothing whatsoever to do with any other copywriter.

          Personally, I wouldn't dream of going up to another copywriter and start talking to them about something as personal as what their fee structure is. It has nothing to do with me. Nothing whatsoever.

          Why would I even think to concern myself with what my competitors are charging for their services? Frankly, I'm not interested.

          I'm not interested enough for it to warrant taking valuable time away from my own marketing efforts.

          Like I said, what they each decide to charge has nothing whatsoever to do with me.

          What's important to me is my own business interests and like many here, I do have other outside business interests which are ticking along very nicely indeed.

          Sure, I charge lower fees here than I do elsewhere. Why? Because I enjoy helping small (and often struggling) business owners out. Not only this but I can personally afford to charge less here on this forum.

          Unlike many others these days I live a digital nomadic lifestyle. A life of my choosing. Doing what I want to do every day which is enjoying traveling, being on the road, traveling between different countries, exploring new cultures and getting to meet up with other people who I would never otherwise in a million years get to meet if I stayed at home every day.

          Hence, I can keep my fees much lower here because I have so little in the way of overheads.

          Now, I notice you've changed out some of the content of your original post (deleted it from what was there originally). You made a reference to attracting 'chump change' clients if you charge lower fees and that most of these clients are (in your original wording, 'terrible').

          Not my experience. Far from it.

          Sure, every business receives a few 'weird' clients, myself no exception but on the whole the quality of these clients is exactly the same as the clients I attract from elsewhere who are happy to pay $3k+ for my services.

          Just in the past month, I've had a very well respected doctor from Sydney in Australia contact me and he was an absolute pleasure to work with. A superb product, one of the best products in fact I've ever since in his niche, if not the best ever. And the copy at under $200 - it's selling extraordinarily well according to him.

          Another major software company contacted me here through the forum which made me chuckle but a deal is a deal. I took them on, delivered and the client? They were overjoyed with the results I produced for them. And once again they were extremely professional.

          Just because some people at times do not want to spend a lot of money on their sales copy this doesn't mean automatically that they're going to be 'terrible' clients as you originally and so succinctly put it.

          And just because under $200 is charged once doesn't mean it's always charged to the same client at this rate.

          It's a door opener, that's all...

          ...a way to get yourself in the door of some major hitters, minimizing their risk in taking you on. The up-sell is if they love your work, you can charge one hell of a lot more second time round. It's a marketing tactic that's all.

          So I think you need to worry less about what other copywriters are charging Thomas and really just concentrate on your own business.

          It's not your concern what others decide to charge for their services.

          Most pro copywriters here they hold their best cards very close to their chest, myself included. We don't always divulge what may appear to be 'sheer madness' to others from a marketing point of view but the fact is, most if not all of the veterans here... we know exactly what we're doing...

          ...and what we're doing is often just a small part of a much bigger picture.


          Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author SusanLandry
    Admittedly, I do get aggravated when I see writers charging rock-bottom rates for their services. I have to fight the urge to grab them by the lapels and shout, "For the love of God, have some respect for yourself, your colleagues, and the industry you represent!"

    However, after mulling it over, I agree that what others charge for their services need have no bearing on what we as individuals charge our clients. Because I believe that 9 times out of 10, buyers get what they pay for. I know this firsthand, since I have in the past hired copywriters to assist me on certain projects. The ones who charge the least tend to justify it with their work product.

    And with regard to those diamonds in the rough out there who produce excellent copy at low rates, they are either just starting out and want to build their portfolio and skills (fair enough) or haven't yet figured out that they're worth much more (they will).

    There are droves of people out there calling themselves copywriters. But stop to consider how many can actually write readable copy, and that number drops dramatically. Consider how many can write sales-producing copy, and the number drops even more. Then, consider how many of those writers know how to market themselves and their services effectively. You're left with a very small pool of professionals.

    I also firmly believe that once the economy truly recovers (whenever that may be), many of those who moonlighted as copywriters during the recession - and couldn't hack self-employment - will go running back to their safe corporate jobs. Like natural selection.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    After writing copy for 10 years now one thing I have learned
    about fees is that you can't raise them with the same client.

    Let me explain ...

    If you write for a client at $200, just don't expect him to
    pay you $2,000 the next time around. You'll have to
    find new clients to pay you the "real" fees.

    One of the lessons I have to teach my coaching students
    is how to charge what they are worth. Most copywriters
    don't know.

    Read Value-Based Fees by Alan Weiss and you'll get the
    long discussion answer to this question.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        Disagree, it's different for every copywriter Ray, how we go about the 'up-sell' is up to us individually. We all have our techniques to make something work for us.

        There is no one-size-fits-all answer as you seem to be suggesting.

        Nothing is impossible in this business. It's just how you phrase it which gets the result desired.


        Mark Andrews
        Well, I'm all ears Mark. Tell me just how you charge a client
        $200 for a letter and the next time charge $2,000 for a
        similar job and get them to say yes?

        Clients don't think that you are "helping them" when you
        lower your fees. They think that's what the job is really
        worth. So when you raise the fees they want a lot
        of justification and saying that you gave a discount the
        first time around doesn't help.

        That has been my experience and that is the same position
        taken by Alan Weiss in the book I mentioned above who
        has been in the consulting business a lot longer than
        me.

        So I very much would like to learn how you get your
        clients pay $2000 the next time around.

        -Ray Edwards
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        • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
          Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

          Well, I'm all ears Mark. Tell me just how you charge a client
          $200 for a letter and the next time charge $2,000 for a
          similar job and get them to say yes?

          Clients don't think that you are "helping them" when you
          lower your fees. They think that's what the job is really
          worth. So when you raise the fees they want a lot
          of justification and saying that you gave a discount the
          first time around doesn't help.

          That has been my experience and that is the same position
          taken by Alan Weiss in the book I mentioned above who
          has been in the consulting business a lot longer than
          me.

          So I very much would like to learn how you get your
          clients pay $2000 the next time around.

          -Ray Edwards
          Ray, it's VERY simple.

          But it is predicated on one thing: You better have the goods.

          Here's EXACTLY what you say:
          "Mr. Prospect, here's what I'd like to do.

          For this first project, I'll accommodate you and your budget.

          $200, it is.

          Why am I doing it? Here's the reason: You don't know me. More importantly, you don't know my work yet.

          Assuming my piece performs as expected, next time around, I get to name the price. Odds are, it'll be in the $2000 ballpark.

          Deal?"
          The conversation can go anywhere after that.

          With this script, a prospect will value you and the deal even more. And strike to close, before YOU come to your senses.

          But like I said, you better be the real deal. No equivocating.

          - Rick Duris
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          • Profile picture of the author videolover7
            Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

            Ray, it's VERY simple.

            But it is predicated on one thing: You better have the goods.

            Here's EXACTLY what you say:
            "Mr. Prospect, here's what I'd like to do.

            For this first project, I'll accommodate you and your budget.

            $200, it is.

            Why am I doing it? Here's the reason: You don't know me. More importantly, you don't know my work yet.

            Assuming my piece performs as expected, next time around, I get to name the price. Odds are, it'll be in the $2000 ballpark.

            Deal?"
            The conversation can go anywhere after that.

            With this script, a prospect will value you and the deal even more. And strike to close, before YOU come to your senses.

            But like I said, you better be the real deal. No equivocating.

            - Rick Duris
            The question wasn't, "How do you give away $2,000 worth of copywriting for $200?" which is all your script accomplishes.

            The question was, "How you get your clients to pay $2,000 the next time around."

            VL
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            • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
              Banned
              Originally Posted by videolover7 View Post

              The question wasn't, "How do you give away $2,000 worth of copywriting for $200?" which is all your script accomplishes.

              The question was, "How you get your clients to pay $2,000 the next time around."

              VL
              Yep. Ray's right. Charging $200 or something and then trying to up the ante to $2k is a quantum leap. Damned near impossible. I don't care what you run past them - the mind-set has already got you locked in at the lower end.

              In my experience doing pro-bono or cheap work hoping that the client will pay your proper rate next time never works out. I can't count the number of times clients have tried it on with "Give me a good rate on this gig and there'll be a lot more work".

              Bottomline: the bottom-feeders aren't worth your time. They're always a pain in the arse. Starting with their lousy products and their lousy briefs.
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            • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
              Originally Posted by videolover7 View Post

              The question wasn't, "How do you give away $2,000 worth of copywriting for $200?" which is all your script accomplishes.

              The question was, "How you get your clients to pay $2,000 the next time around."

              VL
              videolover7, This is about strategy and negotiation, creating a win/win.

              The prospect gets what they want, this time around. A good deal.

              You get what you want next time around, getting paid what you're worth.

              ----

              Now, if you're saying "But gee Rick, I already did the deal for $200. How the hell do I get paid what I'm worth the NEXT time around?"

              Again, equally simple. Here's the script:

              ----

              Client: Hey videolover, you did a great job on that other project, thank you so much.

              Guess what? I have another project for you. Where do I send the $200?

              You: Really? Cool. Hold on a sec. Let me ask you a question. How'd that previous piece do?

              Client: It did really well. It got about a 4% conversion. [He's bragging, like he's been bragging to his friends]

              You: Really? Damn, that's good. How much did you ultimately end up pocketing?

              Client: I don't know, maybe 10 to $20K. [He's probably understating. It was probably more. He suspects what's coming next.]

              You: Really? No sh*t! I'll be damned. Well, good for you. I'm happy for you. Ok, so here's the deal.

              That first project, was basically a "get to know you" deal. You got a bargain, agreed?

              Client: Yeah, definitely. [Now he knows what's coming.]

              You: Now you know I produce. You know my work ethic. You know my professionalism, yes?

              Client: Yeah, you're better than the last 6 posers, I mean copywriters I hired from WF.

              You: Thank you! You're making me blush.

              Well, this time around, if you'll allow, I'd like to be paid what I'm worth.

              Client: Ok..... [waiting for the bad news]

              You: Normally, and now that you know my capabilities, I regularly get paid $2,000.

              Client: What?! You want to charge me 10 times as much as before? That's outrageous!

              You: Really? Respectfully, I think you might be looking at it the wrong way, buddy!

              You just said I made you between 10 and 20K! Best of all for you, I'm a known quantity. You know I can do it again. That's the reason you contacted me, yes? You want me to do it again?

              Client: Of course! Yeah you can. I admit. But $2K? That's a lot of money!

              You: You're so funny! So is $20K, buddy!

              Client: Touche. [With a smile on his face.] Damn it, you got me. Where do I send the $2K?

              ----

              I'm sure you can see the turning points.

              On this one, the negotiation is based upon keeping the discussion light and conversational. The key is not to be insulted or take it personally when he says "$2K! That's a lot of money!"

              There may be a little more dickering, but just keep it light. Have some fun with it and don't break rapport.

              -----

              - Rick Duris
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          • Profile picture of the author Raydal
            Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

            Ray, it's VERY simple.

            But it is predicated on one thing: You better have the goods.

            Here's EXACTLY what you say:
            "Mr. Prospect, here's what I'd like to do.

            For this first project, I'll accommodate you and your budget.

            $200, it is.

            Why am I doing it? Here's the reason: You don't know me. More importantly, you don't know my work yet.

            Assuming my piece performs as expected, next time around, I get to name the price. Odds are, it'll be in the $2000 ballpark.

            Deal?"
            The conversation can go anywhere after that.

            With this script, a prospect will value you and the deal even more. And strike to close, before YOU come to your senses.

            But like I said, you better be the real deal. No equivocating.

            - Rick Duris
            This is not charging $200 the first time and next time
            charge $2,000. You are making a deal initially that
            this is what the arrangement would be. This was
            not the discussion. It was charging low fees at
            first and then try to raise them WITHOUT a prior
            agreement.

            What you explain here is basically the same as writing
            on spec.

            -Ray Edwards
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
          Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

          Well, I'm all ears Mark. Tell me just how you charge a client
          $200 for a letter and the next time charge $2,000 for a
          similar job and get them to say yes?

          Clients don't think that you are "helping them" when you
          lower your fees. They think that's what the job is really
          worth. So when you raise the fees they want a lot
          of justification and saying that you gave a discount the
          first time around doesn't help.

          That has been my experience and that is the same position
          taken by Alan Weiss in the book I mentioned above who
          has been in the consulting business a lot longer than
          me.

          So I very much would like to learn how you get your
          clients pay $2000 the next time around.

          -Ray Edwards
          Hey Ray!

          Simple.

          My copy produced.

          They wanted to pay me the same amount, but I said no, explained that the time I put in to just one description ate up way too much of their budget.

          I gave them a new quote for a handful of descriptions...

          ...and long story, short... they paid what I wanted.

          The copy continued to convert and they continued paying me.

          They even gave me a nice bonus when the company sold.

          Mark

          P.S. I was uncomfortable when I asked. I won't lie. But it ended up being a great ride.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    Admittedly, I charge higher rates.

    I'll do a sales letter for $2000, sometimes, if I'm confident I can hit it out of the ballpark relatively quickly.

    But normally...

    I ask at least $4000.

    Here's why:

    If I'm going to devote 40+ hours on your behalf and STILL pay my bills, I can't be prospecting for myself or dividing my time with other projects...

    ...If YOU want the best possible results.

    That's basic economics.

    I need to make a living.

    However...

    It goes deeper than that...

    Money is the exchange of energy; it's a way to express appreciation.

    It's also a symbol of how much you, as a client, believe in what you're selling.

    If you can't figure how to produce more than $200 for sales copy that you HOPE will generate huge amounts of conversions, you're NOT looking at your investment in the most realistic light.

    Speaking for myself...

    I don't get upset, any more, when I see other copywriters charging low fees.

    I know what I'm worth... and I get what I'm worth.

    That being said...

    I have helped struggling clients, who are having a helluva time buying food for themselves, produce converting copy.

    Sometimes I'll take my fee from the back end.

    Sometimes I'll do it for free.

    Rarely.

    But I have done it.

    At the end of the day...

    You have to charge based upon a whole host of variables that come into play - one potential client at a time.

    But if you CAN write copy that massively converts...

    ...and you're charging low fees because you've given away your power to the economy or the prevailing belief that these are tough times, then you're just selling yourself short.

    Mark Pescetti

    P.S. Yes, you absolutely can charge a client some sort of ridiculously low fee... and later hike up your rates massively. I've done it. Up until recently, I was getting paid $2,500 a month by a client to write their latest product descriptions. That relationship started from me charging them less than $400 when they first found me. It was WAY more work than I accounted for. I told them how much I wanted to continue. They agreed. The products sold well... until the buggers unloaded the company to someone who didn't wanna hire me :-(
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    • Profile picture of the author videolover7
      Admittedly, I charge higher rates.

      I'll do a sales letter for $2000, sometimes, if I'm confident I can hit it out of the ballpark relatively quickly.

      But normally...

      I ask at least $4000.
      Why do you charge $2,000 and $4,000... instead of $5,000 and $10,000?

      VL
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  • Sure, I charge lower fees here than I do elsewhere. Why? Because I enjoy helping small (and often struggling) business owners out. Not only this but I can personally afford to charge less here on this forum.
    That's a huge and sadly overlooked point.

    I think a lot of people assume that because they see good copywriters on the forum charging relatively unglamorous rates, pro copywriting skills must be declining in value.

    Not true.

    Professionals have ALWAYS charged less to clients whose means are less.

    Almost all lawyers charge their poorer clients lower fees for example.
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  • Profile picture of the author videolover7
    Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley View Post

    Every copywriter should give some serious thought to realizing the value of copywriting and fees that acknowledge this value.

    Don't accept low fees. Here's a variation from an old tv commercial that fits: Good copywriting is a terrible thing to waste.

    And that's exactly what you're doing when you write excellent copy at low rates.
    Ironic, isn't it?

    Many copywriters, who establish value for a product or service in the copy they write, don't use the same techniques to sell themselves.

    VL
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I think the point that is being missed in this discussion is
    not that it is impossible to raise your rates but that
    the MAJORITY of clients will squirm and not take
    your offer.

    Alan discusses this in Chapter 5 of his book:
    How To Convert Existing Clients. He offers a
    a conversational track but also admits that
    only a few will accept.

    I guess in the final analysis every copywriter
    would decide on what position to take. I just
    know that I have clients who made millions from
    my copy and found a cheaper copywriter the
    next time around because they didn't want
    to pay the higher fee.

    One of those millionaires even stole my copy
    I wrote for another client.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Matt James
      Yep. Ray's right. Charging $200 or something and then trying to up the ante to $2k is a quantum leap. Damned near impossible. I don't care what you run past them - the mind-set has already got you locked in at the lower end.
      Really? In my experience clients who want to re-hire me are glad to see I'm commanding higher fees. Of course, it helps if they're making bigger profits too.

      Although having said that... going from $200 to $2000 can seem like a bigger leap for the client than going from, say, $10k to $15k.
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

        Really? In my experience clients who want to re-hire me are glad to see I'm commanding higher fees. Of course, it helps if they're making bigger profits too.

        Although having said that... going from $200 to $2000 can seem like a bigger leap for the client than going from, say, $10k to $15k.
        You go "really?" and then end up agreeing with me.

        Try it for yourself campers. Charge the client $200 on the first gig...make him thousands then try and up your rate to $2k for the second gig. Let me know how you get on.
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        • Profile picture of the author Matt James
          You go "really?" and then end up agreeing with me.
          I did? I said it can seem like a bigger leap for the client, you said it was "damned near impossible."

          You just need to be more persuasive
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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

            I did? I said it can seem like a bigger leap for the client, you said it was "damned near impossible."

            You just need to be more persuasive
            Rubbish. It's damn near impossible.
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            • Profile picture of the author Matt James
              Matt, I know you got to be joking. Going from $10K to $15k
              is outside the bounds of this discussion. Just do the percentage
              increase and you'll see what I mean.
              Raydal you're right. But I was going on the basis that the $200 job had bought them in a ton of profits and THEN you were upping your fee. In which case, I bet it could be done.

              But I mean... we're all talking theoretically here, right? Nobody would actually charge $200 for sales copy. Right?

              EDIT -- oops, sorry Mark!
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              • Profile picture of the author Raydal
                Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

                Raydal you're right. But I was going on the basis that the $200 job had bought them in a ton of profits and THEN you were upping your fee. In which case, I bet it could be done.

                But I mean... we're all talking theoretically here, right? Nobody would actually charge $200 for sales copy. Right?

                EDIT -- oops, sorry Mark!
                Okay, now I understand your point perfectly.

                -Ray Edwards
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                The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by Matt James View Post

        Really? In my experience clients who want to re-hire me are glad to see I'm commanding higher fees. Of course, it helps if they're making bigger profits too.

        Although having said that... going from $200 to $2000 can seem like a bigger leap for the client than going from, say, $10k to $15k.
        Matt, I know you got to be joking. Going from $10K to $15k
        is outside the bounds of this discussion. Just do the percentage
        increase and you'll see what I mean.

        In fact, it's easier to go from $10K to $25K than to go from
        $200 to $2,000. Within each of those price ranges is a
        different mindset altogether.

        Also the market makes a big difference. I find that Internet
        marketers who are even raking in millions per year are the
        least likely to pay your higher fees. Small business companies
        with some DM experience are your best bet.

        -Ray Edwards
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        The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • Profile picture of the author Asho
    Interesting Post.

    I'm looking for a copywriter myself now actually.

    Would you then say that the quality of copy is invariably reflected in the price?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    Originally Posted by Asho View Post

    Would you then say that the quality of copy is invariably reflected in the price?
    In a sense... yes.

    The prices that copywriters charge reveal their own beliefs about money. (mindset)

    If I charged $500 for a sales letter...

    ...and I knew I'd be spending 40 or more hours, I'd end up hating myself.

    I could make more waiting tables.

    Likewise...

    If you expect an ROI of let's say $10,000 in conversions for your launch (from a $500 investment,) you're exercising HUGE expectations for an insignificant investment.

    Doesn't add up, does it?

    When you (or anyone) is shopping around for a copywriter, you need to be realistic and transparent with your budget.

    That's what REAL entrepreneurs do.

    They don't shop around looking for the cheapest deal...

    No!

    They create a realistic budget for their copy, graphic/web design and video production (if necessary)...

    ...and approach ONLY the DM professionals who they believe will provide the most VALUE.

    In your case...

    You need to research which copywriters YOU believe will provide the most value for your project.

    What kind of mindset are you looking for in a copywriter?

    Do you know what your budget is?

    Do you know what you expect in return?

    Are you able to provide an in-depth analysis of your target market or niche and how your product is the solution?

    Do you know IF or WHY your audience is starving for your solution?

    These are just some of the factors you need to consider.

    Here's something else to consider:

    If you can cut the learning curve and research time in half for your copywriter (because you're the expert in your market,) maybe you can come to the table with a smaller budget.

    But if you need the copywriter to take the reigns, on every level, you need to come with an even bigger budget.

    Mark Pescetti

    P.S. Your mindset and the mindset of the copywriter you CHOOSE need to be in harmony to co-create the most profitable results. So what are YOUR beliefs about money?
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    This poem's had a pretty profound effect on me. I thought it appropriate given the subject matter.

    It's title is "My Wage" by Jessie B. Rittenhouse. It's from Napoleon Hill's book Think and Grow Rich.

    I bargained with Life for a penny
    And Life would pay no more
    However I begged at the evening,
    When I counted my scanty store.

    For Life is a just employer.
    He gives you what you ask.
    But once you have set the wages,
    Why, you must bear the task.

    I worked for a menial's hire,
    Only to learn, dismayed,
    That any wage I had asked of Life,
    Life would have willingly paid.
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    • Profile picture of the author JakeDaly
      As a young copywriter, this has been a very eye-opening discussion. I thank all of you that chimed in.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Mark,

    I hear you. I appreciate your altruism, it's good energy.

    And it feels good to feel powerful, wildly exceeding the hopes of those otherwise unable to have what we can offer.

    But there's no better way to forget about money than to have plenty of money.

    Money provides freedom of choice. Not having money makes choices for you.

    And we're a non-replaceabe part in the assembly line.. we wear out.

    Working oneself into an early grave isn't noble (while I'm thinking of you as I write this, I'm not pointing at you. Just sayin'...)

    There IS a balance, and we all have to find it for ourselves.

    But I will say this.. I don't believe we can ever work at our full capacity until we achieve some semblance of balance between income and output - there's only so many cycles in the old noodle to go around each day.

    I would rather see newer, less-proven copywriters go longer between qualified gigs, work harder on the ones they land, and charge more every friggin' time than take on too much work for too little dough.

    Best to all... interesting thread.

    Brian

    @Rick, thanks for the poem. Haven't read that in a long time.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
        Geez Mark,

        I can see why you smoke cigs,
        the stress you put yourself under
        for the sake of proving yourself right and others wrong..

        but then again, you'll probably point out the error in my comment.

        Peace man.

        Ewen
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        Money does not buy freedom. It does not buy happiness. You find these qualities on the inside... in your heart. Not anywhere else.
        That was an interesting essay, Mark, and it doesn't matter to me what you charge.

        One thing not mentioned is that on an individual level, if used wisely, money does buy free time...time that can be spent with family, with friends, in traveling, enjoying old age, building a yurt and permaculture setup in the sunny countryside, or even working by choice.

        In that sense, money does buy freedom, and if the use of that free time makes one happy, it buys happiness. That free time could be used to be with family, helping those less fortunate, sailing around the world, or just about anything, all of which could foster happiness.

        It "buys" those things in a money-based economy because having money makes it not necessary to always be working. If someone can trade an hour of work for three hours of free time instead of one, that seems like the logical thing to do, at least to me. The same amount of enjoyment can be gained, because the product of that hour is the same. However, that is just one perspective, and clearly there are others, which can be equally respected.

        We only have so many hours on this planet. How we spend them is up to each of us.
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