Copywriting for around $200?

74 replies
Hi,

I'm really struggling to find many copywriters for sales pages. Can anyone suggest me some? I have a budget up to $200

Thanks!
#copy #design #sales
  • Profile picture of the author kenmichaels
    Originally Posted by gridley View Post

    I have a budget up to $200
    And that's why your having problems.

    Nobody worth there salt is going to do copy AND design for that.

    You would be hard pressed to find some one decent to just do copy for that price.
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
      Originally Posted by kenmichaels View Post

      And that's why your having problems.

      Nobody worth there salt is going to do copy AND design for that.

      You would be hard pressed to find some one decent to just do copy for that price.
      It's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks like that.
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  • Profile picture of the author gridley
    I'm open to higher prices. Just need to see what they've got first
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    • Profile picture of the author hittjw
      Originally Posted by gridley View Post

      I'm open to higher prices. Just need to see what they've got first
      If you're qualified to look at someone else's work to determine if it's good enough, then you might as well save the $200 and write your own copy. Even master copywriters don't know just by looking at someone else's work it something is a sure thing -- there is always testing involved.

      Not having the money to hire a copywriter you can simply go to the Library, study books on copywriting, then start testing your own copy. Once you have some sales (maybe even a control), then you can hire a qualified copywriter to test against your offer.

      Your budge of $200 isn't even enough for a good PPC test. Save your money. Focus on gathering testimonials from users, study hot points in your market, and go through the steps to write your own copy. You'll have $1,000+ before you know it.

      Best,

      Justin

      P. s. As for design, you can't even get a decent logo for $200 -- so boot strap it with a simple website focused on your buyer, their interests, and your offer.
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  • Profile picture of the author WinstonTian
    You're hardly going to find a good copywriter with a
    budget like that. You might strike gold sometimes
    with junior copywriters who don't have a positive
    self-image, or do not realize that they're good
    enough, but these people are extremely rare.

    I'd recommend that you set your budget to at least
    $1000. Ten times more, but look at it this way...
    You're going to multiply your investments and earn
    it back multiple times anyway. Why waste $200 on
    sloppy copy that won't convert?

    Note that I'm not demeaning any copywriter selling
    services under $200. It's possible that he/she is able
    to sell well or write well, but the chances are slim,
    because good copywriters know that they're worth
    far higher, and often charge higher as they realize
    how to position themselves for high-end clients.

    Winston Tian
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  • Profile picture of the author Samujaol
    Copy writing is very important to online marketing jobs to get good number of sale, that is why the copy writing job can not be price so low, if you want to get the best for your business, you have to increase your searching price very well.
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  • Profile picture of the author gridley
    The problem for me is I know the product is good and will sell (I know this from giving out the software for free), but I definitely don't have $1000 to burn on a copwritery even though it is extremely important. It's a catch 22 I need a solution to.
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    • Profile picture of the author Smalls91
      Originally Posted by gridley View Post

      The problem for me is I know the product is good and will sell (I know this from giving out the software for free), but I definitely don't have $1000 to burn on a copwritery even though it is extremely important. It's a catch 22 I need a solution to.
      Maybe you'll find somebody willing to cut you a deal
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  • Profile picture of the author 8485marketing
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  • Profile picture of the author 8485marketing
    Cant reply to your PM Gridley. Not enough posts.
    Send me your email in a PM and we'll talk.
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  • Profile picture of the author eplanellas
    Other copywriters charge a lot. I like to keep my prices low for my clients because I know what a challenge it can be when you are just getting started. If you look you can find someone to do the work for you at that price and maybe even lower. Not only to I write sales copy, but also articles, blog posts, and whatever my clients may need. With me 500 words is only $5 for anything. I don't mean to be self-promoting, so please don't anyone take offense, but the question was asked and if the service is needed I can do the job.

    I also don't have enough posts to respond to PM so if you are interested, you will have to send me your info- Skye or email.
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
    For the long term, I would definitely encourage you to learn how to write powerful copy...an excellent investment in yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Part of the reason good copy costs so much is research and testing, as mentioned above. Copy that sells isn't usually something that someone with no prior knowledge of your industry can sit down and bang out in less than an hour. Technically speaking, anyone can type up a sales letter in an hour, but what good will it be?

    Maybe a sports analogy will help - top teams in the NFL and NBA pay millions of dollars per year per player for those players who produce results in the form of scoring and drawing fans. If they suddenly start offering $50,000 a year, they're probably going to attract everyone who ever held a ball, and maybe only 5% of those people willing to play for that low would actually have skills.
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  • Profile picture of the author drgreg
    I agree with learning to write good copy. At the very least you will be able to differentiate bad copy from good copy on the work you outsource in the future. Although I am not into copywriting, I find that many clients do not realize the difference between good and bad content apart from spelling and grammar errors. They are sometimes duped with poor quality content that seems "ok" to them simply because the grammar was fair and the spelling flawless - something any mediocre writer can pull off with spell and grammar check on MS Word.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeDilagio
      For $200 you might find someone willing to write the sales page - for a generous percentage of the sales. Kind of hard to judge it without seeing the product.
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  • Profile picture of the author alfid
    I thought maybe the sales copy would cost about $20 to $30 depending upon length, but as far as the design...well...it may be possible to have it designed at least by a template for less than $200.
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    • Profile picture of the author Pusateri
      Originally Posted by alfid View Post

      I thought maybe the sales copy would cost about $20 to $30 depending upon length, but as far as the design...well...it may be possible to have it designed at least by a template for less than $200.
      Damn, son! I wouldn't write my name for $20.
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      • Profile picture of the author eplanellas
        Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post

        Damn, son! I wouldn't write my name for $20.
        Well, I would :p. Not only would I do it, but I would do the research into the origin of the name and find statistics on how many people have that name. Not all copywriting has to be expensive to be good. You just need to find the right writer.
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      • Profile picture of the author digesource
        Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post

        Damn, son! I wouldn't write my name for $20.
        I'm just pokin a little fun here, and I don't mean nothin by it, but let's take a look at this.

        Let's say you can write your name in 10 secs. Now multiply that by 6 times, for a total time of 1 min. Now multiple that by 1 hour (60 min), which totals 360 times you can write your name. Now multiple that by the $20.00 from above.

        That comes to a total of $7200.00 per hour.

        Now let's multiple that by the average number of hours a copywriter needs to complete a project. I don't actually know what that is, but lets be conservative and say you can do it in 10 hours of time.

        That comes to $72,000.00 per sales letter.

        WOW

        I'd have to say you have some pretty high Efn standards there.

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  • Profile picture of the author TheSalesBooster
    Don't listen to these people saying you can't get a copywriter for $200. You don't need a copywriter, do it yourself. People think copywriting is some unnatural talent that your born with. Go buy a couple books and look over some free resources online and write your own copy. It's really easy to do and you might as well start some place. It will be a learning experience for you which is the most important part.

    By the way there is no such thing as the perfect copy written by someone for 1k-10k. The real secret to successful copy is testing. So OP learn the basics, test it and do A/B testing on everything until you have a winner. Save your self a couple thousands for your advertising budget.
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    • Profile picture of the author DanielKeller
      Hi there

      I'm trying to start out as a copy writer, but I have no experience in the field yet, so I'm looking for someone who is ready to put a lot of trust in me.
      I'm very good at using language, since I'm "trilingual" (I speak and write Danish, English and German fluently). Also I've been studying the psychology of persuasion and influence for a long time along with a strong interest in seduction, which might come in handy.
      Sadly I have no clue about design but I'm more than willing to write a sales letter for $100 (and preferably a review about my effort for future reference).
      I'm very flexible with my writing and can do just about anything - from serious to silly, from personal to objective. If you want me to, I'll even make your product sound like it was created by God himself :p

      So send me a PM if you're interested in working with me

      All the best,
      -Daniel
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post

      Don't listen to these people saying you can't get a copywriter for $200. You don't need a copywriter, do it yourself. People think copywriting is some unnatural talent that your born with. Go buy a couple books and look over some free resources online and write your own copy. It's really easy to do and you might as well start some place. It will be a learning experience for you which is the most important part.

      By the way there is no such thing as the perfect copy written by someone for 1k-10k. The real secret to successful copy is testing. So OP learn the basics, test it and do A/B testing on everything until you have a winner. Save your self a couple thousands for your advertising budget.

      Aren't you the one who just spammed the crap out of me and a bunch of other WF members with an offer that made absolutely no damn sense? Your point about learning copy is valid, and I suggest you take that recommendation to heart. Learn how to reach your target market and craft an offer before you start telling others that copywriting isn't worth spending money on.



      And alfid - if you thought you could get it for $20, you haven't done any research, or have been listening to shoddy and/or shady business people. I recommend looking at Writer's Market, which can usually be found at your local library. You'll find a wide range of prices that writers (not just copywriters) charge for a variety of pieces. Copywriters generally make more than article writers, but that's not always the case. Copywriting tends to involve a lot more research and testing.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheSalesBooster
        Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

        Aren't you the one who just spammed the crap out of me and a bunch of other WF members with an offer that made absolutely no damn sense? Your point about learning copy is valid, and I suggest you take that recommendation to heart. Learn how to reach your target market and craft an offer before you start telling others that copywriting isn't worth spending money on.



        And alfid - if you thought you could get it for $20, you haven't done any research, or have been listening to shoddy and/or shady business people. I recommend looking at Writer's Market, which can usually be found at your local library. You'll find a wide range of prices that writers (not just copywriters) charge for a variety of pieces. Copywriters generally make more than article writers, but that's not always the case. Copywriting tends to involve a lot more research and testing.

        uhh no? That was TheSalesTechnician.

        Anyway, OP just do what I said and save yourself the money. And if you are absolutely dead set on getting a copywriter. Talk to someone who would be interested in doing a % pay offer. If you show them your product and if they like it enough to invest their time you might be able to get them to produce an awesome pitch for you.
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        • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
          Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post

          uhh no? That was TheSalesTechnician.
          My apologies, you are correct. It was TheSalesTechnician.

          I agree the OP can only benefit from learning copywriting - however, that takes a LOT of time and energy. If it's not something you're focusing on as a profession, it is often something that is better outsourced.

          I can do receipts and expenses for my business, but that takes valuable time away from writing, researching, and prospecting. I outsource all that. Not to say that copywriting is on par with expensing - simply that there are people who specialize in that kind of thing who can produce good results in much less time for much less money.

          I'm willing to bet that if the OP calculated how many hours it took him to study copywriting, do the research, come up with a decent draft, and do some editing and testing, the opportunity cost would be rather high.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
      Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post

      Don't listen to these people saying you can't get a copywriter for $200. You don't need a copywriter, do it yourself. People think copywriting is some unnatural talent that your born with. Go buy a couple books and look over some free resources online and write your own copy. It's really easy to do and you might as well start some place. It will be a learning experience for you which is the most important part.
      This kind of thinking is responsible for the massive amount of bad copy on the web today.

      Copywriting is deceptively simple. It's very easy to think you know what you are doing from reading a few books. There's no shortcuts but experience.

      You can certainly do it yourself. But don't kid yourself. There is a steep learning curve to mastery. While mastery isn't required to get results, getting the ability to generate decent copy is not an overnight process.
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      • Profile picture of the author TheSalesBooster
        Originally Posted by Ken Hoffman View Post

        This kind of thinking is responsible for the massive amount of bad copy on the web today.

        Copywriting is deceptively simple. It's very easy to think you know what you are doing from reading a few books. There's no shortcuts but experience.

        You can certainly do it yourself. But don't kid yourself. There is a steep learning curve to mastery. While mastery isn't required to get results, getting the ability to generate decent copy is not an overnight process.
        Did I say it was an overnight process?

        And whats so bad about having massive amounts of bad copy on the web? Do you want good copy everywhere on the web? That would make your job as a marketer that much harder.

        By the way... this guy is obviously defending his "skills" as a copywriter. They get defensive when you talk about how copywriting isn't some secret skill that only a handful of people can master. They obviously get paid to write sales copy so when someone says that it's not that hard, they get angry because they don't want their customers to hear that.

        Oh and I checked out your site in your sig. I think you fall into the bad copy part of the web.
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        • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
          Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post

          Oh and I checked out your site in your sig. I think you fall into the bad copy part of the web.
          Just want to chime in here and say I think Ken's copy is pretty decent. For $500 it's a steal.

          Don't know the guy, haven't seen his work apart from that one letter... but I don't think your comment was justified.

          You're welcome to disagree, of course.

          -Daniel
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        • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
          Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post

          Did I say it was an overnight process?

          And whats so bad about having massive amounts of bad copy on the web? Do you want good copy everywhere on the web? That would make your job as a marketer that much harder.

          By the way... this guy is obviously defending his "skills" as a copywriter. They get defensive when you talk about how copywriting isn't some secret skill that only a handful of people can master. They obviously get paid to write sales copy so when someone says that it's not that hard, they get angry because they don't want their customers to hear that.

          Oh and I checked out your site in your sig. I think you fall into the bad copy part of the web.
          Ironically, YOUR post sounded defensive, not mine.

          You didn't say overnight, but you implied that it could easily be learned quickly from books. (Like many others think)

          My post was based on thinking I was a great copywriter for years, and then seeing the light. You don't know what you don't know. Believe me I totally understand how you could think what you think, because I use to think that way several years ago.

          I don't believe that improving the overall copy on the web would make anyone's job harder. Raising the standards of the industry is always a good thing.

          As far as your comment on my signature file: That is a sign of technical incompetence, NOT my copywriting. I havn't figured out how to fix it so it displays correctly.

          However, pointing that out is petty on your part. If you think my actual copy is not great, then point out specific examples. Don't nit pick on my sig file.
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          • Profile picture of the author TheSalesBooster
            Originally Posted by Ken Hoffman View Post

            Ironically, YOUR post sounded defensive, not mine.

            You didn't say overnight, but you implied that it could easily be learned quickly from books. (Like many others think)

            My post was based on thinking I was a great copywriter for years, and then seeing the light. You don't know what you don't know. Believe me I totally understand how you could think what you think, because I use to think that way several years ago.

            I don't believe that improving the overall copy on the web would make anyone's job harder. Raising the standards of the industry is always a good thing.

            As far as your comment on my signature file: That is a sign of technical incompetence, NOT my copywriting. I havn't figured out how to fix it so it displays correctly.

            However, pointing that out is petty on your part. If you think my actual copy is not great, then point out specific examples. Don't nit pick on my sig file.
            What are you talking about? You think I was talking about your sig? I'm talking about your website in your sig that has poor copywriting.
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            • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
              Originally Posted by digesource View Post

              Seems to me that "Ken Hoffman" was insulting "TheSalesBooster" when he was referring to his "thinking" as being "responsible for the massive amount of bad copy on the web today."

              Would the terms "childish" and "grow up" be considered insulting?

              I respectfully suggest you and Ken read those rules.

              I had no intent to insult anyone. I was merely expressing my opinion about his beliefs and thoughts.

              I think Mark's comments were accurate and fair considering TheSalesBooster attempted to damage my professional reputation as a copywriter with his personal attack on my website.

              That's quite a bit different than disagreeing with someone's thoughts as I did.

              To TheSalesBooster:

              Again, I would ask for specific feedback on what part of my copy you thought was bad. I'm certainly not a world-class copywriter yet, so I welcome the chance to improve.

              I'm trying to be reasonable. If you think it's bad, be specific. Otherwise you are doing exactly what Mark accused you of.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    At least that standards of the copywriting forum is improving.

    Just a few years back we were debating sales letters for $97.

    Now we are up to $200!

    What's next? $500?

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
    Originally Posted by gridley View Post

    Hi,

    I'm really struggling to find many copywriters for sales pages. Can anyone suggest me some? I have a budget up to $200

    Thanks!
    Gridley,

    Writing a strong salesletter is a very time consuming process for most copywriters. Reading this old thread will help you understand much better why copywriters charge what they charge.

    http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...opywriter.html

    Best of luck,

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Smart Wordsmith
    I don't understand why, but a meaningful post by Mark Andrews just disappeared from this thread! Right when I thanked it and quoted it to post my reply. Can somebody tell me how it vanished?!
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Smart Wordsmith View Post

      I don't understand why, but a meaningful post by Mark Andrews just disappeared from this thread! Right when I thanked it and quoted it to post my reply. Can somebody tell me how it vanished?!
      I deleted it. Thanks for the Thanks though - I'm glad the advice contained within it for the short time I let it remain helped somebody at least.


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author Smart Wordsmith
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        I deleted it. Thanks for the Thanks though - I'm glad the advice contained within it for the short time I let it remain helped somebody at least.


        Mark Andrews
        It sure did! In fact it inspired me! After this entire hullabaloo against newbie copywriters charging low fees, I was literally depressed. I could never fix a price; I kept hopping from one rate to another. Do I need to tell you how such a situation makes a newbie copywriter feel totally disheartened and insecure?

        I am a content writer making fresh footsteps on copywriting and charging as high as the big players here doesn't feel okay to me. I've been lingering around this copywriting forum for quite some time now, but I still feel like I need to learn more and practice more.

        But tell me, how do I practice without risking my clients' money and business?

        How do I ensure that I am worth the rate I am charging?

        The best solution I had for myself was to start out at low prices. Yes, I don't yet know whether my copy converts, so my best option is to make myself risk-free. But from the responses here, charging low fees for copywriting is nothing short of a crime.

        Yes Mark, your response came as a confidence booster! For newbie copywriters like me who remain silhouetted out of fear and insecurity, your post is priceless! I strongly recommend that you put it up again! It sure will help many.

        Thanks again!
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Smart Wordsmith View Post

      I don't understand why, but a meaningful post by Mark Andrews just disappeared from this thread! Right when I thanked it and quoted it to post my reply. Can somebody tell me how it vanished?!
      I read the post as well and had a similar experience.

      Sine I was I mentioned by name for being a hypocrite for
      having some time in the past offered low fees I'd like to
      address that concern.

      In another thread addressing the same issue I wrote that
      I had learned in my 10 years of writing online copy that
      people who pay $200 the first time around will not pay
      $2,000 the next time around. Now this sounds to me
      like I used to charge low fees and learned by experience.

      So if I learned something from EXPERIENCE, how could
      suggesting not to do this be hypocritical?

      -Ray Edwards
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      • Profile picture of the author Smart Wordsmith
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        I read the post as well and had a similar experience.

        Sine I was I mentioned by name for being a hypocrite for
        having some time in the past offered low fees I'd like to
        address that concern.

        In another thread addressing the same issue I wrote that
        I had learned in my 10 years of writing online copy that
        people who pay $200 the first time around will not pay
        $2,000 the next time around. Now this sounds to me
        like I used to charge low fees and learned by experience.

        So if I learned something from EXPERIENCE, how could
        suggesting not to do this be hypocritical?

        -Ray Edwards

        Well Ray, you do have a point there. You started out at $200 and learnt that customers will not pay $2000 if you let them have brilliant copies at much lower costs. But tell me, is it right to deny the newbie copywriters their right to gain practice in copywriting? Here is my experience: I badly need an opening in copywriting but I have the label 'newbie' on me. I don't have as much experience as the established copywriters. Naturally, I have to keep my prices low and gradually grow. After all, that is how people build their careers.

        Ideally, I keep my prices low and people approach me. I write copies, I improve and I raise my prices.

        But practically what happens?

        I keep my prices low and people approach me. They inquire my rates, I say $200 and they're sure that my copywriting will ruin their business.

        As a freshman, I feel this whole mess about low prices will gradually make people hesitant towards becoming copywriters. Obviously, people like me can't charge more because we are yet to learn how our copies convert. Neither can we charge low because as far as I've seen, copywriters are categorized as 'good' and 'bad' on the basis of their rates.

        Why can't we just let talent bloom?
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        • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
          Originally Posted by Smart Wordsmith View Post

          I don't have as much experience as the established copywriters. Naturally, I have to keep my prices low and gradually grow. After all, that is how people build their careers. [/FONT][/COLOR]

          Ideally, I keep my prices low and people approach me. I write copies, I improve and I raise my prices.

          But practically what happens?

          I keep my prices low and people approach me. They inquire my rates, I say $200 and they're sure that my copywriting will ruin their business.

          As a freshman, I feel this whole mess about low prices will gradually make people hesitant towards becoming copywriters. Obviously, people like me can't charge more because we are yet to learn how our copies convert. Neither can we charge low because as far as I've seen, copywriters are categorized as 'good' and 'bad' on the basis of their rates.

          Why can't we just let talent bloom?
          I think you're overthinking it. I've never had someone assume I'm going to ruin their business with my copywriting. Actually, I take that back. One client and I mutually fired one another last month because (in his words) he had control issues. I checked on what he wrote recently and saw that his entire campaign failed. I felt awful, but there's nothing I could do - you can lead a horse to water and all.

          But back to your point. You're shooting yourself in the foot. "Obviously people like me can't charge more..." If you write well and you know your stuff, how do they know you're new? You think business owners are wasting time tracking down your history? Part of your job as a copywriter is to sell, and that includes selling yourself (in a totally non pornographic way). If you can't make them believe that your writing is worth much more than $200, then you still have some learning/writing to do.

          I recently landed a client because he called to ask about prices. My rates are based straight out of Writer's Market, but he thought my prices were high because he's worked with other copywriters who were charging him hundreds less than what I quoted. All I told him on the phone was that he could double-check Writer's Market if he thought my rates were unfair, and that there was a reason he was looking for a new copywriter. Obviously the cheapo guys weren't working. We had a signed agreement a week later.
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        • Profile picture of the author Raydal
          Originally Posted by Smart Wordsmith View Post

          Well Ray, you do have a point there. You started out at $200 and learnt that customers will not pay $2000 if you let them have brilliant copies at much lower costs. But tell me, is it right to deny the newbie copywriters their right to gain practice in copywriting?
          The answer to your question is, "No."

          And except that I missed something nobody was denying
          newbie copywriters the right to set a low fee. I think the
          question was about standard practice after you have
          earned your chops.

          If you give away great copy for little fee, the client won't
          think that you're "nice" he'll think that you are stupid and
          don't really understand your worth.

          It may not be fair but I'm just telling you the reality
          of business life.

          Clients who know what real copywriting is worth will
          eliminate you just based on your fees.

          In addition that is the amount of respect they would
          pay you as well. When clients know they are paying
          good money for your services they don't mess around
          with your copy.

          -Ray Edwards
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          • Profile picture of the author Smart Wordsmith
            Apart from learning copywriting, perhaps I must learn some business too! I must say this place is great for newbie copywriters to learn their stuff and the advice offered is golden. I bow down to all you guys for having worked hard to reach there and still finding time and interest to share your thoughts and experiences with others.

            I understand that copywriting is the art of persuasion in all its grandeur and I respect its significance in every business. I also realize that offering decent copywriting services at cheap prices may put the honor of the whole copywriters' community at stake, but my sole intention here, is to address a general concern that newcomers face.

            Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

            I think you're overthinking it. I've never had someone assume I'm going to ruin their business with my copywriting. Actually, I take that back. One client and I mutually fired one another last month because (in his words) he had control issues. I checked on what he wrote recently and saw that his entire campaign failed. I felt awful, but there's nothing I could do - you can lead a horse to water and all.

            But back to your point. You're shooting yourself in the foot. "Obviously people like me can't charge more..." If you write well and you know your stuff, how do they know you're new? You think business owners are wasting time tracking down your history? Part of your job as a copywriter is to sell, and that includes selling yourself (in a totally non pornographic way). If you can't make them believe that your writing is worth much more than $200, then you still have some learning/writing to do.

            I recently landed a client because he called to ask about prices. My rates are based straight out of Writer's Market, but he thought my prices were high because he's worked with other copywriters who were charging him hundreds less than what I quoted. All I told him on the phone was that he could double-check Writer's Market if he thought my rates were unfair, and that there was a reason he was looking for a new copywriter. Obviously the cheapo guys weren't working. We had a signed agreement a week later.
            I never thought about that. I've always believed that I should be intimating my client that I am not as experienced as the established copy providers, so that he stands a chance to understand who he is working with. I totally agree with your statement that a copywriter, who is meant to persuade thousands to buy, must first prove his prowess by making the client 'buy' him.

            But another question arises: What if he succeeds in making the client 'buy', but fails to produce a converting copy? I am sure as in every other trade, practice makes perfect in copywriting too, and mistakes are inevitable. So, what would happen if the client is unhappy with the copy? What must the newbie copywriter do then? I'd love to know.


            Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

            The answer to your question is, "No."

            And except that I missed something nobody was denying
            newbie copywriters the right to set a low fee. I think the
            question was about standard practice after you have
            earned your chops.

            If you give away great copy for little fee, the client won't
            think that you're "nice" he'll think that you are stupid and
            don't really understand your worth.

            It may not be fair but I'm just telling you the reality
            of business life.

            Clients who know what real copywriting is worth will
            eliminate you just based on your fees.

            In addition that is the amount of respect they would
            pay you as well. When clients know they are paying
            good money for your services they don't mess around
            with your copy.

            -Ray Edwards
            Doubts cleared! Thanks!
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
              Originally Posted by Smart Wordsmith View Post

              But another question arises: What if he succeeds in making the client 'buy', but fails to produce a converting copy? I am sure as in every other trade, practice makes perfect in copywriting too, and mistakes are inevitable. So, what would happen if the client is unhappy with the copy? What must the newbie copywriter do then? I'd love to know.
              It doesn't matter what the client paid for the copy. It doesn't matter what your experience level might be. No copywriter -- past, present, or future -- is successful 100% of the time.

              If your copy didn't convert, then you need to figure out very quickly WHY it didn't convert. And you need to tell your client why it bombed and how you believe it can be corrected.

              Throwing your hands up in the air in defeat or avoiding their emails is not the answer. That's the fastest route to getting known as a copywriter that people don't want to do business with.

              Hope that helps,

              Mike
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            • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
              Originally Posted by Smart Wordsmith View Post


              But another question arises: What if he succeeds in making the client 'buy', but fails to produce a converting copy? I am sure as in every other trade, practice makes perfect in copywriting too, and mistakes are inevitable. So, what would happen if the client is unhappy with the copy? What must the newbie copywriter do then? I'd love to know.
              Exactly like Mike said - no one is perfect. Do everything in your power to fix it. Accept that sometimes it can't be fixed, either because the client is over it or there are just too many unknowns. Know that losing one client isn't the end of the world, and neither is bombing one piece the end of your career. Figure out what went wrong and fix it to the best of your ability, and if it can't be fixed, use that knowledge to keep the same thing from happening again.
              Signature

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              • Profile picture of the author Smart Wordsmith
                Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                It doesn't matter what the client paid for the copy. It doesn't matter what your experience level might be. No copywriter -- past, present, or future -- is successful 100% of the time.

                If your copy didn't convert, then you need to figure out very quickly WHY it didn't convert. And you need to tell your client why it bombed and how you believe it can be corrected.

                Throwing your hands up in the air in defeat or avoiding their emails is not the answer. That's the fastest route to getting known as a copywriter that people don't want to do business with.

                Hope that helps,

                Mike
                Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                Exactly like Mike said - no one is perfect. Do everything in your power to fix it. Accept that sometimes it can't be fixed, either because the client is over it or there are just too many unknowns. Know that losing one client isn't the end of the world, and neither is bombing one piece the end of your career. Figure out what went wrong and fix it to the best of your ability, and if it can't be fixed, use that knowledge to keep the same thing from happening again.
                I am more than grateful. Internet business is perhaps the only profession in the world, in which you achieve enlightenment in the wee hours of the night, from people who are thousands of miles away from you and who gain nothing but satisfaction from pointing you towards the right direction.

                Thanks again!
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        • Originally Posted by Smart Wordsmith View Post

          Well Ray, you do have a point there. You started out at $200 and learnt that customers will not pay $2000 if you let them have brilliant copies at much lower costs. But tell me, is it right to deny the newbie copywriters their right to gain practice in copywriting? Here is my experience: I badly need an opening in copywriting but I have the label 'newbie' on me. I don't have as much experience as the established copywriters. Naturally, I have to keep my prices low and gradually grow. After all, that is how people build their careers.

          Ideally, I keep my prices low and people approach me. I write copies, I improve and I raise my prices.

          But practically what happens?

          I keep my prices low and people approach me. They inquire my rates, I say $200 and they're sure that my copywriting will ruin their business.

          As a freshman, I feel this whole mess about low prices will gradually make people hesitant towards becoming copywriters. Obviously, people like me can't charge more because we are yet to learn how our copies convert. Neither can we charge low because as far as I've seen, copywriters are categorized as 'good' and 'bad' on the basis of their rates.

          Why can't we just let talent bloom?
          You need some WINS. Get a PLR product, drive traffic to it and make some sales. Go around your town and offer to rewrite some bad ads. They are everywhere. Heck, put up a product on Ebay and write some great copy for it and make SALES. Now you know how your copy converts, have a track record, and more importantly for you, a BOATLOAD of confidence.
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          Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
          - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author SusanLandry
    I recently landed a client because he called to ask about prices. My rates are based straight out of Writer's Market, but he thought my prices were high because he's worked with other copywriters who were charging him hundreds less than what I quoted. All I told him on the phone was that he could double-check Writer's Market if he thought my rates were unfair, and that there was a reason he was looking for a new copywriter. Obviously the cheapo guys weren't working. We had a signed agreement a week later.

    Love it! Great way of handling the conversation.
    Signature
    Susan Landry, Marketing Copywriter
    "Putting the Power of Persuasion Into Words"
    www.susanlandry.com

    Follow me on Twitter! Please.
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  • Profile picture of the author Smart Wordsmith
    Originally Posted by Joe Ditzel View Post

    You need some WINS. Get a PLR product, drive traffic to it and make some sales. Go around your town and offer to rewrite some bad ads. They are everywhere. Heck, put up a product on Ebay and write some great copy for it and make SALES. Now you know how your copy converts, have a track record, and more importantly for you, a BOATLOAD of confidence.
    Thanks for the great advice Joe. I am certainly doing that!
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  • Profile picture of the author Jomuli3
    Originally Posted by gridley View Post

    Hi,

    I'm really struggling to find many copywriters for sales pages. Can anyone suggest me some? I have a budget up to $200

    Thanks!
    How many sales pages do you want written at that budget?
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  • Profile picture of the author MoreThanWords
    Hi Gurus and Newbies,

    May I say there are some great advice to find here! Thank you Joe Ditzel for your advice, I'm going to consider your advice for my own career as a writer.

    I had one question/suggestion though for you newbies and gurus....

    In my 4 year bachelor course in Business and Marketing there is only one thing that I have learned that I thought was useful and that was the word: Delegation

    I am actually seeing a business opportunity here: one party obviously having problems with getting new customers, accepting lower rates and not too confident with their qualities as a writer. The other party who has already built up a network of clients, works with far better rates and are confident enough that there sales letter will convert.

    Am I right?

    Now why wont Gurus delegate/outsource their work to the newbies? Guide them a bit? Teach them how to write it? You Gurus have more time to find other projects? Can take up multiple projects at the time? That way you can expand your network and earn even more? Newbies are willing to write for a lower rate in exchange for some experience? That way everyone wins right?

    Just a suggestion.

    Sorry If I'm out of my league ^^
    Signature
    It is said that the tip of the pen is mightier than the sword.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    The problem with this whole thread is the word… cost.

    Copywriting is an investment.

    If someone comes to me expecting to make $10,000 (or more) from a $200 investment, I laugh.

    It takes 30, 40, 50+ hours to craft converting copy, whether it’s for a sales letter or authority site…

    …and that doesn’t even including writing email follow-up sequences (for people who haven’t purchased… yet) or upselling.

    Anything less than $2000 for a copywriting investment is coming from a penny-pinching wanna-preneur who doesn’t take into consideration the amount of interview, research and creative maturation time absolutely required to spend on a project… BEFORE a single bloody word is written.

    But here’s the deal:

    Most people who can only afford a $200 copywriting investment haven’t thought ahead far enough to know what kind of ROI they want (and should realistically expect.)

    Often times…

    They’re not even sure if they REALLY have a hungry marketplace…

    …and the right product or service to pacify people’s thirst for a solution!

    The whole concept of entrepreneurialism has gotten completely lost on the majority of internet marketers.

    That being said…

    Here’s HOW you should approach a copywriting endeavorIF you’re serious about making money AND believe in your (preferably original) product or service:

    …Identify and study your ideal prospect and marketplace. Determine whether there’s a genuine need for your product or service. If you’ve concluded there is a thirst for your SOLUTION, try to hone in upon the smallest niche in the broader market to focus your energies.

    …How much does your product or service cost and how many people do you perceive are potential customers/clients? For instance, if what you’re selling costs $50 and Google says that at least 20,000 unique searches are made (monthly) for your target niche and you convert just 100 of those prospects… you’d be looking at a potential $5000 a month ROI, on the low end (if your copy converts.)

    …Knowing that you have the REAL potential to make some REAL money, you decide to invest in the potential income you could be producing. After all, leaving a possible $60,000 a year on the table would be dumb, right?

    How much is a potential $60,000 worth to you?

    Would you feel asking a proven copywriter to originate converting copy for $200?

    Hell no!

    If you really believe in your product or service…

    …and you’re excited about HELPING people or making an impact in your prospect’s lives, your copywriting investment should be at least one month’s worth of low-end potential sales.

    That means…

    You need to come to the table with a solid $5,000 to really be taken seriously by a copywriter who knows what he or she is doing.

    You’re also declaring that you’re serious about being successful.

    Because even a $1000 investment would saying, “I really don’t believe I’ll be successful, but hey, it’s only $1000, so when it fails, I won’t be out too much.”

    I could go on…

    Mark Pescetti

    P.S. If I’m looking at making a mere $200 to produce converting copy… and I have $6000 a month in personal bills, I’ll only be able to commit a few hours, realistically, to your project. From that perspective, you may as well just throw away that $200. As a REAL entrepreneur, you have to make sure you have your copywriter’s full, undivided attention. And that means, you must come to the table with a REAL budget.

    P.P.S. You also have to set aside a budget for your website design and driving RELEVANT traffic. Converting copy must be framed properly and be seen by the eyes it’s meant for to work.
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  • Profile picture of the author digesource
    I just love these answers that are NOT answers.

    Don't let all these responses discourage you. I know what it's like living on a small budget, and you've got to stay within your means. These people here aren't showing compassion for your position, nor are they answering your question. They are simply ratcheting up your cost consideration in hopes they can make a sizable sale off you and others reading this.

    Yes, hiring a professional copywriter can be expensive, and they are worth their work, most of the time, but it doesn't always have to be that expensive to get your start.

    Since they seem to think you have an unlimited supply of money to spare, then I think you can drop the ball back in their Lapps and tell them for such a price you better guarantee me a million dollars in sales, sound fare? I guarantee you they would not. Which means you have to consider the value of their self-appraisal.

    Here is an option. If you have some time to burn or invest, you can put that budget to good use. PM me for an option none of these folks would want you to have.

    Good luck,

    Darin Walker
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
      Originally Posted by digesource View Post

      I just love these answers that are NOT answers.

      Don't let all these responses discourage you. I know what it's like living on a small budget, and you've got to stay within your means. These people here aren't showing compassion for your position, nor are they answering your question. They are simply ratcheting up your cost consideration in hopes they can make a sizable sale off you and others reading this.

      Yes, hiring a professional copywriter can be expensive, and they are worth their work, most of the time, but it doesn't always have to be that expensive to get your start.

      Since they seem to think you have an unlimited supply of money to spare, then I think you can drop the ball back in their Lapps and tell them for such a price you better guarantee me a million dollars in sales, sound fare? I guarantee you they would not. Which means you have to consider the value of their self-appraisal.

      Here is an option. If you have some time to burn or invest, you can put that budget to good use. PM me for an option none of these folks would want you to have.

      Good luck,

      Darin Walker
      I'm not aware of any copywriter that thinks their clients have unlimited amounts of money to burn.

      No copywriter will (Or should) guarantee you a winner because the copy is only one element of success. I suppose that's a good reason to try to do the copy cheap. But if you are unsure that you've got the other elements in place it's a big gamble to make. Because if the copy sucks it doesn't matter if you've got everything else right.

      Your whole post reeks of a hidden agenda to sell people on your service or product.
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      • Profile picture of the author digesource
        Originally Posted by Ken Hoffman View Post

        I'm not aware of any copywriter that thinks their clients have unlimited amounts of money to burn.
        Apparently some of the ones in this thread do. They failed to answer Gridley's question, and instead provided their omniscient opinion on how he was somehow misguided in asking it.



        Originally Posted by Ken Hoffman View Post

        Your whole post reeks of a hidden agenda to sell people on your service or product.
        I answered Gridley's question by inviting him to PM me for a solution, and one that would FIT his budget. I don't have a service or a product in this niche yet. I was going to offer him someone else's whom I have purchased, and find it to be very valuable. The reason I told him to PM me was because of the very reason I didn't want to spam his thread with an offer. Any who are interested can PM me, or contact me by other means. There is nothing ulterior about what I have stated. All my words are upfront, and if anyone wants to know more, they can simply ask here or in private, whichever is their choice.



        Originally Posted by Ken Hoffman View Post

        No copywriter will (Or should) guarantee you a winner because the copy is only one element of success.
        Apparently you weren't getting the message about the "guarantee" jab. It was an absurd sarcastic remark meant for the sole purpose of putting the unhelpful in their place. A place where they rightfully belong, which is the financial deconstruction of their own personal worth as they were so ignorantly piling on Gridley for his limited budget.



        Where do they get the authority to peddle the cost considerations of their vocation in front of a prospect who obviously doesn't have the funding to afford their wares?

        There is a very important process of sales sorely lacking in their approach: Qualification!

        The single most crucial aspect of qualifying a prospect is: Do they have the money to pay for it?

        This important aspect was completely ignored by several posts in this thread, and gives me ample alert as to THEIR "hidden agenda."

        Ignoring this single most important qualifier is the major cause of the destruction of many salesman careers over the last few decades in Corporate America. It has lent to many bankruptcies, due to sales reversals and refunds, in major industries. The fact that they are pushing this issue on Gridley's thread clearly shows that their copy would fail this extremely important point.

        The "other elements" are irrelevant to us at this point because Gridley was simply asking about locating copywriters who would do work for $200.00 or less. That's not hard for me to understand. Why is it for others? I know of multiple copywriters that will do work within that range.

        What's funny here is if no copywriter will guarantee an ROI percent for their clients, then what gives them the right to charge large fees? The resolution is simple. Since copywriters will not guarantee their work, and the quality of copywriting varies among them, then the copywriter shopper should seek a frugal approach. The only time large copywriting fees should be considered is if you are launching a major enterprise.

        If someone says they have X as their budget, then those who offer services in the range of X ought to step forward, and all others ought to quite wasting everyone's time.

        Please tell me just what is the whole purpose of even posting a response on this thread, by all these big talkers of copywriting, if it's at the expense of Gridley's needs? Maybe these big shots ought to anti up their own money to help him since they think he needs that much capital to hire a decent copywriter. Maybe they need to put up a page on the net, and drive traffic to it, that informs the world that we need to do away with copywriters that charge less than X because they are ruining the copywriting business.

        Just a RELEVANT thought or two here.

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  • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
    Originally Posted by gridley View Post

    Hi,

    I'm really struggling to find many copywriters for sales pages. Can anyone suggest me some? I have a budget up to $200

    Thanks!
    If you defined what type of "copywritery" you needed, for e.g.

    a) A short WSO Sales Page
    B) For what type of product/niche

    ...you could've had a flood of copywriters contacting you who were willing to write at that price.

    But since you didn't, people assumed otherwise.
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  • Profile picture of the author CPAGodFather
    Hi Gridley,

    Just hired a copywriter/designer for less than $200. Just search warriors for hire and WSO section. Heres some $200 and less copywriters to start you off (no affiliation or work with them before). These links are saved from my research yesterday on WSO/WF Hire Copywriters/Designers

    $147 Copy + Design/Graphics
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...-services.html

    $99 Copy Only - $199 Copy + Design/Graphics
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...48hr-sale.html
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  • Profile picture of the author CPAGodFather
    Heres a few more copywriters/designers around $200.. There are more just gotta look around...

    $500
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...ted-spots.html

    $500 - same as above - personal website
    WSO - PersuasiveSalesLetters.com (500$ same as above)

    $67 Salesletter Design/Graphics
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...er-design.html

    Starts at $77 copy + design
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...p-quality.html

    $167 Design/Graphics
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...gns-cheap.html

    $167 copy + graphics
    http://www.warriorforum.com/warriors...ial-offer.html
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Here's the thing, Darin...

    I think it's obvious the OP doesn't have a huge budget. That's not in dispute.

    What IS in dispute is whether or not the OP's dreams of getting a decent copywriter for $200 are reasonable.

    Now, I don't see it as copywriters trying to get the OP to pay their fees as much as warning him of the pitfalls of what he's trying to get.

    Lots of business people throughout history have bootstrapped. There's nothing wrong with that - you do what you gotta do.

    But the secret to successful bootstrapping is you LEARN TO DO STUFF YOURSELF.

    When I bought my house it needed a lot of work. I live in a pretty expensive town with a lot of mining so the tradespeople can (and do) charge like wounded bulls (diesel fitters, boiler makers and electricians can easily pull in six figures).

    So I had a decision to make...

    Do I pay a tradesperson $150 to put in a new light for me... I do I spend half an hour doing it myself?

    Notice I didn't try and find a sparky that charged me $20 - after all, if they're good, they'll have work. And I don't want my house burned down with a dodgy wiring job.

    Why do people think it's any different with business?

    You also said...

    What's funny here is if no copywriter will guarantee an ROI percent for their clients, then what gives them the right to charge large fees? The resolution is simple. Since copywriters will not guarantee their work, and the quality of copywriting varies among them, then the copywriter shopper should seek a frugal approach. The only time large copywriting fees should be considered is if you are launching a major enterprise.
    When you go to a doctor, they don't promise you'll get better...

    A musician can't promise a flawless performance...

    And police don't promise to keep criminals out of your house.

    They do their best, sure... but there are no guarantees in any of those situations.

    So why do good copywriters charge big fees?

    First of all... because they've got the track record and experience to prove they're worth it.

    Second, because they can.

    Fact is there's a high demand for good copywriters.

    The cheap ones either are new and haven't yet realized they can charge more - or they're crap and the only way they keep getting work is from newbies who don't know any better.

    Sure, you'll hear excuses about how they just want to give back, or that they don't need a lot of money, or whatever... and that may be partially true.

    But the simple fact is if they could charge two, five, or ten times what they are now and get the same amount of work, they would. There's simply no reason not to, ESPECIALLY when the best clients are the ones with money.

    Also... why would you launch a business if you didn't want to make it huge? Seems like far too much effort for far too little reward.

    A client who is concerned about price says two things...

    First, they don't appreciate what a good copywriter brings to the table...

    And second, they have no idea how to run a business... which means they likely won't be able to make money off the best copy in the world.

    Now, there's nothing "wrong" with that... everyone has to start somewhere.

    But those are the reasons good copywriters charge money.

    -Daniel
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    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

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    • Profile picture of the author digesource
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      What IS in dispute is whether or not the OP's dreams of getting a decent copywriter for $200 are reasonable.
      Why is his dream in dispute in the first place? Why is there even a dispute going on? I am totally unaware of his request for feedback on whether he made a reasonable request in the first place. As far as I could determine, he was asking for contacts of copywriters that would do the job for $200.00 or less. Why even respond to his post if you have no interest offering to help? What possible help could it be to invalidate his request and belittle him in the process?


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      warning him of the pitfalls of what he's trying to get.
      How do you know there will be a pitfall for him? What I hear in this thread is the use of scarcity and loss tactics on him to justify copywriter pricing because you feel threatened that someone might be able to help him for less. You talk as if you can guarantee him a big return, without actually guarantying the big return. This is typical sales copy language, and you are using it against the OP.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      When you go to a doctor, they don't promise you'll get better...
      No, but they feel fine about charging you for services that result in no improvement. That's bad and dishonorable business no matter how you look at it.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      A musician can't promise a flawless performance...
      No, but then you are paying for an intangible that will likely be one of their best performances. Theres no point in a guarantee because with artists your investment is primarily egotistical. Why do you think people are always saying "I saw so-and-so in concert?" It's an ego trip based around that fact that they were THERE with the artist. That's the prize!


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      And police don't promise to keep criminals out of your house.
      We don't have a choice in paying them either. I wouldn't call this a good example. Based on what I have experienced, I would not rely on them anyway.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      So why do good copywriters charge big fees?
      Based on what you and others are stating, it's because you are saying we will make a lot of money. Only, it's seems none of you can back that promise up.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      First of all... because they've got the track record and experience to prove they're worth it.
      Where's the proof, the track record? The client can't see it. Anyone can say they are worth it, and make up their own story of credentials. That's just another sales job for the copywriter. And I would like to go on record at this point and state that I never said high priced copywriters were not valuable or worth their rate, I just made the distinction that there is a context and budget that the a business owner must consider when seeking one out. You guys are playing the whole copywriting gambit here as if high priced copywriters are the only valid and competent kind for all practical purposes and clients. That's pure arrogance. And I never trust arrogance. Humility coupled with confidence, determination, and dedication is always the best way to go. The problem with high priced copywriters today is that they get caught up in their own copy, and start defining their roles in terms of the flow of their copy, and then project that onto the entire world's marketplace as gospel. It's like an actor that can't come off of the role they just played in a blockbuster film, and come back to reality fast enough before it has a detrimental effect on their relationships. The attitude of self-importance is damaging to their relationships and happiness, and it produces a buffer identity they have to live up to for the sake of social caste systems they consider beneath them, but need for the sake of income generation. There is a difference between self-importance and self-esteem, confidence or faith, and the primary distinction is arrogance. Arrogance is simply an assertion that one person or group is inherently worth more than another. I do not build my self-esteem at the expense of others. It's an illusion that comes crashing down one day.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Second, because they can.
      They can with those who are willing to pay it. Which brings us to the question of why they would waste their, supposedly valuable, time here on a thread with a $200.00 budget? You would think they'd have better things to do with their time, such as copywriting for $5000.00 and $10,000.00, than spend it here on a $200.00 deal. I wouldn't call that very good prospecting, would you?


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Fact is there's a high demand for good copywriters.
      Fact is also, that good copywriters don't always charge the prices you are saying they're charging. That's what competition does eh? Brings down the price of things. I think that's what is really ticking off the copywriters here in this thread.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      The cheap ones either are new and haven't yet realized they can charge more - or they're crap and the only way they keep getting work is from newbies who don't know any better.
      Sure, you'll hear excuses about how they just want to give back, or that they don't need a lot of money, or whatever... and that may be partially true.

      But the simple fact is if they could charge two, five, or ten times what they are now and get the same amount of work, they would. There's simply no reason not to, ESPECIALLY when the best clients are the ones with money.
      That is an insult to those who charge less, and to beginners and intermediate copywriting students. It is also an insult to the intelligence of small business owners, and entrepreneurs. The arrogance and condescension here is frankly sickening. You appear to be playing the role of a know-it-all about everybody, and seem so stuck in your sales mindset that you put yourself above everyone. Your words are a very good indicator of this attitude.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Also... why would you launch a business if you didn't want to make it huge? Seems like far too much effort for far too little reward.
      You just attacked the credibility and worth of every person that has sold or bought a WSO in this forum that wasn't solely designed around making large sums of money. There are literally hundreds of WSOs that have sold here that were specifically designed to help people make some extra income on the side, and you just invalidated ALL of them. Why don't you just shoot for the Stars and proclaim yourself as GOD over the rest of us? After all, according to what you are saying you should set your sights at the highest! Let me know how that works out for you.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      A client who is concerned about price says two things...

      First, they don't appreciate what a good copywriter brings to the table...

      And second, they have no idea how to run a business... which means they likely won't be able to make money off the best copy in the world.
      Sure.., of course.., we shouldn't be concerned with price. We'll spend all the rent money, utility money, child care money, food money, car payment money, and money for other financial responsibilities so our great copywriter can make it big for us by the end of the month when all the bills come due. On second thought, maybe all of us pathetic entrepreneurs better just quit dealing with the Warrior forum and buying WSOs and such. We're just wasting our time here. We all need to just go back to working a job and stop messing around online with petty little business interests. Unless we are taking on the world with the biggest venture in history, it's a complete waste of everyone's time., right?


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Now, there's nothing "wrong" with that... everyone has to start somewhere.
      Really, that's not what I heard from your words, and the words of some others here.


      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      But those are the reasons good copywriters charge money.
      No.., those are the reasons why high price copywriters think they are better than their low priced colleagues. Pure arrogance.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
        Originally Posted by digesource View Post

        Why is his dream in dispute in the first place? Why is there even a dispute going on? I am totally unaware of his request for feedback on whether he made a reasonable request in the first place. As far as I could determine, he was asking for contacts of copywriters that would do the job for $200.00 or less. Why even respond to his post if you have no interest offering to help? What possible help could it be to invalidate his request and belittle him in the process?




        How do you know there will be a pitfall for him? What I hear in this thread is the use of scarcity and loss tactics on him to justify copywriter pricing because you feel threatened that someone might be able to help him for less. You talk as if you can guarantee him a big return, without actually guarantying the big return. This is typical sales copy language, and you are using it against the OP.




        No, but they feel fine about charging you for services that result in no improvement. That's bad and dishonorable business no matter how you look at it.




        No, but then you are paying for an intangible that will likely be one of their best performances. Theres no point in a guarantee because with artists your investment is primarily egotistical. Why do you think people are always saying "I saw so-and-so in concert?" It's an ego trip based around that fact that they were THERE with the artist. That's the prize!




        We don't have a choice in paying them either. I wouldn't call this a good example. Based on what I have experienced, I would not rely on them anyway.




        Based on what you and others are stating, it's because you are saying we will make a lot of money. Only, it's seems none of you can back that promise up.




        Where's the proof, the track record? The client can't see it. Anyone can say they are worth it, and make up their own story of credentials. That's just another sales job for the copywriter. And I would like to go on record at this point and state that I never said high priced copywriters were not valuable or worth their rate, I just made the distinction that there is a context and budget that the a business owner must consider when seeking one out. You guys are playing the whole copywriting gambit here as if high priced copywriters are the only valid and competent kind for all practical purposes and clients. That's pure arrogance. And I never trust arrogance. Humility coupled with confidence, determination, and dedication is always the best way to go. The problem with high priced copywriters today is that they get caught up in their own copy, and start defining their roles in terms of the flow of their copy, and then project that onto the entire world's marketplace as gospel. It's like an actor that can't come off of the role they just played in a blockbuster film, and come back to reality fast enough before it has a detrimental effect on their relationships. The attitude of self-importance is damaging to their relationships and happiness, and it produces a buffer identity they have to live up to for the sake of social caste systems they consider beneath them, but need for the sake of income generation. There is a difference between self-importance and self-esteem, confidence or faith, and the primary distinction is arrogance. Arrogance is simply an assertion that one person or group is inherently worth more than another. I do not build my self-esteem at the expense of others. It's an illusion that comes crashing down one day.




        They can with those who are willing to pay it. Which brings us to the question of why they would waste their, supposedly valuable, time here on a thread with a $200.00 budget? You would think they'd have better things to do with their time, such as copywriting for $5000.00 and $10,000.00, than spend it here on a $200.00 deal. I wouldn't call that very good prospecting, would you?




        Fact is also, that good copywriters don't always charge the prices you are saying they're charging. That's what competition does eh? Brings down the price of things. I think that's what is really ticking off the copywriters here in this thread.




        That is an insult to those who charge less, and to beginners and intermediate copywriting students. It is also an insult to the intelligence of small business owners, and entrepreneurs. The arrogance and condescension here is frankly sickening. You appear to be playing the role of a know-it-all about everybody, and seem so stuck in your sales mindset that you put yourself above everyone. Your words are a very good indicator of this attitude.




        You just attacked the credibility and worth of every person that has sold or bought a WSO in this forum that wasn't solely designed around making large sums of money. There are literally hundreds of WSOs that have sold here that were specifically designed to help people make some extra income on the side, and you just invalidated ALL of them. Why don't you just shoot for the Stars and proclaim yourself as GOD over the rest of us? After all, according to what you are saying you should set your sights at the highest! Let me know how that works out for you.




        Sure.., of course.., we shouldn't be concerned with price. We'll spend all the rent money, utility money, child care money, food money, car payment money, and money for other financial responsibilities so our great copywriter can make it big for us by the end of the month when all the bills come due. On second thought, maybe all of us pathetic entrepreneurs better just quit dealing with the Warrior forum and buying WSOs and such. We're just wasting our time here. We all need to just go back to working a job and stop messing around online with petty little business interests. Unless we are taking on the world with the biggest venture in history, it's a complete waste of everyone's time., right?




        Really, that's not what I heard from your words, and the words of some others here.




        No.., those are the reasons why high price copywriters think they are better than their low priced colleagues. Pure arrogance.
        Darin-

        I see that you promote a self-development course for:
        "The Creation of An Enlightened Planetary Civilization"

        But based on all the negativity, assumptions, and limiting beliefs of what you've wrote here...I don't see you walking your talk. I enjoy personal development, but based on your comments here I don't have a good feeling about Avatar. (Unless of course you yourself havn't been through the training)
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        • Profile picture of the author digesource
          Originally Posted by Ken Hoffman View Post

          Darin-

          I see that you promote a self-development course for:
          "The Creation of An Enlightened Planetary Civilization"

          But based on all the negativity, assumptions, and limiting beliefs of what you've wrote here...I don't see you walking your talk. I enjoy personal development, but based on your comments here I don't have a good feeling about Avatar. (Unless of course you yourself havn't been through the training)
          I promote it for everyone else, BUT me.

          I get nothing out of it but the knowledge that the world is made a better place.

          You are correct. I can always use some improvement on the road to walking my talk. Thank you for correcting me.

          On a side note: I have seen the entrepreneurial spirit get snuffed out of people because of condescending and attacking instead of TACTFUL CORRECTING. The difference is the degree of selfishness involved in a service as opposed to the degree of selflessness involved in a service. Notice I did not make a reference to pricing/cost.

          I'm not pointing fingers, and I suggest nobody else does either, because there's no POINT in doing so. Pun intended. This is not meant to be taken personal by anyone, but to be considered as a part of the mental/spiritual repertoire of our service attitude.

          I always correct my mistakes where ever possible, and you can BANK on that! I take responsibility for what I do.

          Perhaps everyone ought to come together here and get back on track to helping the OP, if it's within the scope of their service and pricing consideration.

          Even I need to get back on track here also...ouch...

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          • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
            After the drawing of swords and the chaotic movement of bright sparks of friction...

            Caused by the meeting of razor sharp metal...

            The smoke cleared and the dust finally settled...

            The incident in question had puzzled many a people?

            It was then that a realization dawned upon all that were near and far!

            A realization and a brainwave that looked like the letters H-O-L-L-Y-W-O-O-D standing on the side of a dusty dry mountain...

            Suddenly the letters started forming into words and the words into a sentence and the sentence into an idea that read:

            "What if the dude genuinely had a budget of $200 and just wanted a Short WSO Sales letter?"

            Ok, you can't blame a salesman for trying to upsell the customer but dude, what if...?

            But all was not in vain!

            Because out of this great epic heated exchange arose inspirational questions and answers to questions that perplexed many...

            And caused many a people to lose to a multitude of nights of sleep over.

            Questions that almost created a giant steel iron barrier for some.

            But tonight, this barrier was neutralized and the path seldom travelled was cleared.

            It was right there, right then that the people of the town named War Iorfor Um finally understood what the dude wanted...

            And the importance of empathy and mutual co-operation.

            And that what he wanted was entirely possible for those willing to pay the price.

            Then suddenly to the surprise of all present, a man known as Gary Bencivenga called out in the distance and said, "Didn't you folks remember anything from my Marketing Bullets seminar?"

            P.S. Just in case someone didn't get the joke, this was intended to be one. You know, that thing called humor or humour as some spell it. It was never intented to be sales copy. There's nothing for sale here. So anyone looking for holes to pick, sorry to disappoint you.
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            • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
              Banned
              Originally Posted by The Marketeer View Post

              After the drawing of swords and the sparks of friction caused by the meeting of razor sharp metal...

              The smoke cleared and the dust finally settled...

              The incident in question had puzzled many a people.

              It was then that a realization dawned upon all that were near and far...

              A realization and a brainwave that looked like the letters H O L L Y W O O D standing on the side of a dusty dry mountain...

              Suddenly the letters started forming into words and the words into a sentence and the sentence into an idea that read:

              "What if the dude genuinely had a budget of $200 and just wanted a Short WSO Sales letter?"

              (Ok, you can't blame a salesman for trying to do an upsell a customer but dude, what if...?)
              4/10 would not recommend.

              I'm kidding lol :p. The thread has been fun to watch; but I understand where those who are all up in arms over this are coming from. I know I don't hang in this section much, but over on the main forum I find myself yelling about the same things when it comes to regular content. So many people charge less than what they are worth, and it has created a market in the IM niche that seems almost unrealistic.
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          • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
            Originally Posted by digesource View Post

            I promote it for everyone else, BUT me.

            I get nothing out of it but the knowledge that the world is made a better place.

            If it helps to make the world a better place, why wouldn't you want that for yourself too?

            The world changes from one person's transformation at a time.

            "You can can light a thousand candles, if you light just one first."
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            • Profile picture of the author digesource
              Originally Posted by Ken Hoffman View Post

              If it helps to make the world a better place, why wouldn't you want that for yourself too?

              The world changes from one person's transformation at a time.

              "You can can light a thousand candles, if you light just one first."

              Who said I didn't have it for myself?

              If you notice under my user ID, it says Avatar. I am a graduate of the Avatar Course.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    Why would anyone who knows their worth charge $200 for something that will take them 40+ hours?

    That's not even minimum wage.

    Are there people who charge $200 or less for a sales letter (and graphics/web work?)

    Yup.

    Have some of them made their clients money?

    I'm sure they have.

    Making a return on a $200 investment isn't too hard to accomplish.

    But charging bargain basement prices is a choice.

    And as a sales writer, if I can't inspire my own prospects to think I'm worth more than $200 to write a sales letter that could potentially bring them in tens of thousands of dollars...

    ...I need to get out of this business.

    That being said...

    What we're really talking about here is mindset.

    There's reason WHY I charge at least $2000 for a sales letter (or any web copy work), while others charge $200.

    Am I confident I can produce?

    Yes.

    If I wasn't confident that I can continue to write converting copy, I'd get the hell out of dodge.

    Is that arrogance?

    Nope.

    I simply know my worth...

    ...and get paid what I'm worth.

    I personally wouldn't even consider doing a sales letter for $200 because that would harm my bottom line. Based on my own integrity, I'd have to commit the same diligence on that $200 letter as I would for a $5000 letter.

    I'd resent the hell out of myself AND my client if I overextended myself in that way.

    Of course...

    To each their own.

    Mark Pescetti

    P.S. Here's the catch: If someone approached me with a $200 budget and had an amazing original product that I saw massive potential in, I'd wave that measly $200 and take 50% (or more) on the back end. I've done that before and I'm continuing to see that passive income plop into my PayPal account on the daily.
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    • Profile picture of the author digesource
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      P.S. Here's the catch: If someone approached me with a $200 budget and had an amazing original product that I saw massive potential in, I'd wave that measly $200 and take 50% (or more) on the back end. I've done that before and I'm continuing to see that passive income plop into my PayPal account on the daily.


      Well said!
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      • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
        Originally Posted by digesource View Post

        Well said!
        The problem with this approach is unless someone has some skin in the game, they tend to not follow your advice, not implement quickly, and generally have less incentive to see things through.

        I know there are exceptions, but why take the chance, when there are plenty of clients who can/will value what you do enough to pay an adequate fee?

        It takes a lot of time and energy to do the work in any service business.

        No other professional would work under these terms. Whether doctor, attorney, or accountant.

        It demeans their professional reputation to do so.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Oh look, it's THIS thread again...

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  • Profile picture of the author Joseph Robinson
    Banned
    I'm using this one a lot lately:

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  • Profile picture of the author Ken Hoffman
    Originally Posted by gridley View Post

    Hi,

    I'm really struggling to find many copywriters for sales pages. Can anyone suggest me some? I have a budget up to $200

    Thanks!
    This thread could have been answered in one comment:

    No one should be struggling to find a copywriter. There's tons of them out there for just about every budget. Just look under Warriors For Hire. At any given time there is always a copywriter advertising for clients in your price range. If you can't find one there then go to Elance or any of the other outsourcing sites.
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