by max5ty
52 replies
That's what I told Ronnie...

a guy that lives here in Ohio...

can't write a lick of good copy, but he's busy all the time with clients.

Actually...I think he probably swipes most of the stuff he writes from on-line stuff...he makes about $3000.00 a week.

His clients love him...you'd probably hate him.

Which brings me to the reason for this post...

It's all about determination.

He's a go-getter.

He's out there all the time...lots of "We're not interested", lots of "What's your references", lots of "Who've you worked for"...

lots of just just plain "bug off" in polite words.

He never seems upset or discouraged...

most would give up and quit...not Ronnie.

I would post some of his stuff on here but you seasoned vets of copywriting would rip it apart...it's that bad.

We get together and drink a few on the weekends...I give him some tips...none on copy though...wouldn't work anyways.

He's probably not going to go down in history on any forum as being a "top copywriter"...

he won't care.

Ronald writes some of the worst copy I've ever seen, but he made over $150,000.00 last year writing stuff that wouldn't pass a critique on this forum.

How?

He's got determination.

There's just no way you can stop him. He's out there drumming up business...he doesn't get distracted when someone tells him "no".

There's no reason why "you" as a copywriter can't be wealthy. There's no reason why you can't "have it all".
#love
  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Sell that soap, baby.

    Sell that soap.
    Thanks Ken...had been working on selling the soap.

    Hopefully you've seen the new "pods" in all the stores.

    New way to do your laundry without all the hassle of the old detergent...may have to upgrade my private jet
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      ...may have to upgrade my private jet
      There he goes again. Bentleys. Range Rovers. The mansion. My private jet. Not to mention the other plane.

      Never have I met somebody online talk so much complete and utter garbage about their personal possessions. If they exist at all. Probably just in your imagination.

      Certainly you're the only geezer I know who has to make constant references to their personal possessions to make yourself look good in the eyes of others.

      Frankly, I think you're full of it. Not an ounce of truth to any of your claims. You've never once managed to back up even one of your claims here on this forum. Not one. Not once. Not on one single solitary point. Ever.


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        There he goes again. Bentleys. Range Rovers. The mansion. My private jet. Not to mention the other plane.

        Never have I met somebody online talk so much complete and utter garbage about their personal possessions. If they exist at all. Probably just in your imagination.

        Certainly you're the only geezer I know who has to make constant references to their personal possessions to make yourself look good in the eye's of others.

        Frankly, I think you're full of it. Not an ounce of truth to any of your claims. You've never once managed to back up even one of your claims here on this forum. Not one. Not once. Not on one single solitary point. Ever.


        Mark Andrews
        I actually hold back quite a bit..wouldn't want to make you too jealous.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          I actually hold back quite a bit..wouldn't want to make you too jealous.
          Jealous of you? I hardly think so.

          You have nothing whatsoever for me to be jealous over. Period.


          Mark Andrews
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

            Jealous of you? I hardly think so.

            You have nothing whatsoever for me to be jealous over. Period.


            Mark Andrews
            Love you Mark.
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

      Ah, starting your own space program.

      Good for you.
      Yeah...probably with a lot more money than you'll ever have...oh..did I say that?
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

        Yeah, you did. If brags were dollars, you could cover the deficit.

        Did I say that?

        Why do I get the feeling you have a lot more hat than cattle?

        Must be the shrill Daddy Warbucks schtick.

        Yeah, that's it.
        Why don't you just say what you mean...wtf is up with all your bs talk?
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Now that we have all the "I hate you because you're wealthy" talk out of the way...

    The purpose of my post is to give you some encouragement...to let you know that it is possible to make it...and make it big.

    Don't give up...don't let others bring you down...

    If being successful was easy everyone would be. Only those who have determination will make it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      Now that we have all the "I hate you because you're wealthy" talk out of the way...

      The purpose of my post is to give you some encouragement...to let you know that it is possible to make it...and make it big.

      Don't give up...don't let others bring you down...

      If being successful was easy everyone would be. Only those who have determination will make it.
      We don't dislike you because you're supposedly wealthy, we simply don't like you because you're a blatant braggart.

      It's very rare to find a true wealthy person who constantly feels the need to constantly boast about their material possessions.

      A lot of your posts in the past have been good. Some containing excellent advice. But all this crap about what you own? Nobody gives a stuff. It's just making you look stupid.

      Drop the braggart part of your personality and you might become a little more likeable.

      Noun: braggart - a very boastful and talkative person, blowhard, boaster, bragger, line-shooter, egoist, swellhead - a conceited and self-centered person.


      Mark Andrews
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        We don't dislike you because you're supposedly wealthy, we simply don't like you because you're a blatant braggart.

        It's very rare to find a true wealthy person who constantly feels the need to constantly boast about their material possessions.

        A lot of your posts in the past have been good. Some containing excellent advice. But all this crap about what you own? Nobody gives a stuff. It's just making you look stupid.

        Drop the braggart part of your personality and you might become a little more likeable.

        Noun: braggart - a very boastful and talkative person, blowhard, boaster, bragger, line-shooter, egoist, swellhead - a conceited and self-centered person.


        Mark Andrews
        You know what I do Mark?

        I make it a habit to get to know successful people.

        I don't look down on them...I try and learn from them. If they did it, I know I can too.

        I told you once in an email...if I rode a bicycle and lived in a shack in the woods, it would be hard for me to try and offer encouragement on being a successful copywriter.

        I don't brag...I'm where I'm at because of hard work...I'm simply saying anyone can do it.

        I'm hoping that one day you'll "make it"...then I'll want to know exactly how you did it...and I promise I won't be in the least bit jealous...
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      • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        We don't dislike you because you're supposedly wealthy, we simply don't like you because you're a blatant braggart.
        You mean like you insisting you're a fantastic copywriter when everybody knows you're not?

        Don't disrespect people for doing the very same thing you do yourself... all the time.

        Don't do to others what you don't like being done to you.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          You know what I do Mark?

          I make it a habit to get to know successful people.

          I don't look down on them...I try and learn from them. If they did it, I know I can too.

          I told you once in an email...if I rode a bicycle and lived in a shack in the woods, it would be hard for me to try and offer encouragement on being a successful copywriter.

          I don't brag...I'm where I'm at because of hard work...I'm simply saying anyone can do it.

          I'm hoping that one day you'll "make it"...then I'll want to know exactly how you did it...and I promise I won't be in the least bit jealous...
          This is where we differ.

          I don't follow the typical example of following what you define as successful people. I don't measure success in terms of how much you own or what exactly you own. I don't look down on people who aren't necessarily successful by your definition of success. How you measure it.

          My pursuit is finding freedom, happiness, and contentment and this is what I teach others to find too.

          I know at least one billionaire, he's a braggart like you. Personally, I think he's full of himself but there we go.

          I've also met hundreds of other people who are by my definition very successful. They work in charities around the country helping out in some of the most disadvantaged neighbourhoods. Hardly enough to feed themselves often, yet they're constantly giving their time and energy to truly help others.

          This is my definition of a successful person. I think the work they do is wonderful. They lead by example. Setting a good example by which others can like them lead more successful meaningful lives in their respective communities.

          Have you ever watched this program?...

          The Secret Millionaire - Channel 4

          If you can, watch a few episodes, it might do you good.

          What I live in is my choice. If I wanted to become a lot more successful (by your own definition) I know I could do it if I wanted to. It essentially comes down to making decisive decisions. The question is... do I want it? And am I a worse person for not choosing to follow in the footsteps of what you perceive success to be?

          I don't look down my nose at others. I'm not a brown noser. I'm not an ass kisser. As I said above wysiwyg. Down to earth commonsense. With a good dollop of humour thrown in for good measure.

          Where a person lives, how they choose to lead their life is up to each person. It's not for me to judge a person simply because they're not leading a lifestyle which by a common definition isn't representative of what many people's view of success is.

          Success comes from a place within you, not what's on showy display on the outside.

          A good mother to her children who might not be able to provide everything they want in life or a father who likewise cannot do the same but brings their kids up showering them with love, friendship, open communication, honesty, trust and an ability to demonstrate kindness to others, is just as much if not more of a success in my view than a person who owns every material possession in the world.

          These are the kind of examples I'd rather relate to.

          Happiness comes from within your heart not what you can buy with money alone. Happiness, freedom, contentment money cannot buy.

          Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

          You mean like you insisting you're a fantastic copywriter when everybody knows you're not?

          Don't disrespect people for doing the very same thing you do yourself... all the time.

          Don't do to others what you don't like being done to you.
          I'm not a fantastic copywriter Rezbi. I don't think I've ever boasted this way before. I do believe I'm a good copywriter with a single minded purpose to become a fantastic copywriter one day. But I'm not there yet.

          I'm not disrespecting Marcus/Mark - it's just his approach and my approach to life are very different.

          If we were all the same - the world would be a hellishly boring place.

          Smoking hot,


          Mark Andrews
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          • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
            I'm not a fantastic copywriter Rezbi. I don't think I've ever boasted this way before. I do believe I'm a good copywriter with a single minded purpose to become a fantastic copywriter one day. But I'm not there yet.
            From your site:
            IMCopywriting

            You need a fantastic copywriter on your side... ...ready to command and direct the action.

            I'm not disrespecting Marcus/Mark - it's just his approach and my approach to life are very different.
            Your previous post...

            We don't dislike you because you're supposedly wealthy, we simply don't like you because you're a blatant braggart.

            It's very rare to find a true wealthy person who constantly feels the need to constantly boast about their material possessions.

            A lot of your posts in the past have been good. Some containing excellent advice. But all this crap about what you own? Nobody gives a stuff. It's just making you look stupid.

            Drop the braggart part of your personality and you might become a little more likeable.
            I'd say that goes for everyone.

            Or no one.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

              From your site:
              IMCopywriting

              You need a fantastic copywriter on your side... ...ready to command and direct the action.
              Right on cue, I knew for a fact you would reply with this Rezbi and that you would quote this exact line from my own sales copy. A 100% conversion delivered in less than 15 minutes. Bingo! It worked lol.

              Maybe I am fantastic.

              Maybe I'm better than at times I think I am.

              Thank you sincerely for reaffirming / confirming this point.

              You proved it yourself although of course this wasn't your intention but was mine.

              Smoking hot,


              Mark Andrews
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            • Profile picture of the author max5ty
              Mark...

              Ever heard the saying "Some people don't put up walls to keep others out, they're building them to see who's willing to tear them down"?

              Reminds me of you.

              Once you understand people, copywriting is real simple.

              No matter what age you are, you still think of yourself as younger...

              you wonder sometimes if others see you as the age you once were.

              Not always...usually in your low times...you wonder...

              Every person in the world - everyone reading this - has an agenda...

              they want to look good, feel good, and have others think good about them.

              Most copywriters by nature are creative people...

              once you're able to stop trying to please the masses...and you start writing copy...or doing ads that come from your deep...you start making a difference.

              My thoughts...

              I never focused on making money.

              I still could care less about how much I have...

              it's all a game to me...it's a challenge to see if I can convince someone to buy.

              I'm convinced that those who are in the game only to make big money, probably won't survive.

              There has to be a real passion...something that drives you...

              Great thing about being a copywriter...

              by this time next week you can be a whole lot wealthier.

              Try it.
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              • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
                Banned
                I'm exceedingly wealthy right now.

                I have pretty much everything I want.

                Anything else is just icing on the cake.

                I'm alive. I'm breathing. In. Out. Miraculous. And I truly appreciate it. Life.

                Wealth isn't to be measured only in terms of what you own by way of material possessions. As I've oft repeated before, it's what's in your heart and mind which makes you truly wealthy.

                If you're enjoying life, if you're happy, contented, satisfied - you are wealthy.

                If you have enough to get by on, can experience freedom, can touch and taste choices in life, choose to find a new view every day, meet new people, strike up conversations with strangers, forge friendships - you are wealthy.

                If you can truly really taste beans on toast and appreciate the simple meal with a long elongated, 'hmmmmm tastyyyyy', or the taste of a chocolate biscuit dunked in a mug of hot steaming tea, feet up, side door open watching the sunset, listening to some beautiful music whilst chatting with the lady of your dreams - you are wealthy.

                If you can wake up in the morning after a sound nights sleep, stretch luxuriantly, get dressed at leisure, work the hours you want to work, go about your daily chores with a smile on your face, whistling a good happy tune thoroughly looking forward to the day ahead - you are wealthy.

                Welcome to my lifestyle.

                Smoking hot,


                Mark Andrews
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                • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
                  Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

                  Wealth isn't to be measured only in terms of what you own by way of material possessions. As I've oft repeated before, it's what's in your heart and mind which makes you truly wealthy.

                  If you're enjoying life, if you're happy, contented, satisfied - you are wealthy.
                  This quote from Abraham Lincoln comes to mind:

                  "Most folks are as happy as they make up their minds to be."

                  Some folks are happiest with the comforts of fine material possessions, and for others, the simple things are enough. And some are never happy at all. Everyone has their own definition of happiness.

                  Getting back to max5ty's original post - a winner never quits, and a quitter never wins.

                  As Jane Wagner once said:

                  "All my life I've wanted to be someone. I guess I should have been more specific."

                  It seems that Ronnie in the story is doing just that - as can anyone else.

                  As Norman Vincent Peale said:

                  "Change your thoughts and you change your world."
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      I'm a troll?

      I'm not even trying to sell anything in my signature...

      ...you obviously just wanted to post to do some advertising.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
    I don't get it.

    I don't see anything wrong with the OP.

    What is it with people on this forum?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Rezbi View Post

      I don't get it.

      I don't see anything wrong with the OP.

      What is it with people on this forum?
      As Mark Pescetti so succinctly puts it in his signature link...

      The New Age of Marketing is coming from a place of HELPING people. The more people you HELP, the more money you make!

      Rubbing other peoples faces in it all the time as Max5ty is so fond of doing, telling others how much you're worth, what you own all the time, isn't coming from a place of helping other people.

      It's just saying, "Look at me and how much better I am than you."

      In a down economy when people are struggling to pay their basic essential bills and to put foot on the table, to keep a roof over their head - when someone comes along boasting about everything they own constantly, this doesn't act as a trigger to help those people feel better about themselves.

      All it does is to alienate other people and get their backs up.

      For in essence, he is saying with these constant little comments, "Look at how much better off I am than you guys - aren't I just swell?"

      It's not a good motivator especially when there's no proof at all that he has actually achieved anything at all. It's all just hot air. Words conjured up out of thin air to stir things up.

      This is the last time I take the bait.

      Originally Posted by CharismaticMannequin View Post

      Haha!

      I goddamn LOVE this forum! Still, I have one problem....

      I can't seem to figure out whether Mark likes or dislikes Maxty. I mean, one post he's calling for him to come back, the next he's laying into him.

      Hold on - be right back. grabbing some popcorn!


      Anyway, seriously - like Rez said...nothing wrong with the OP. I don't even care if Max brags - whether he's lying or not, this post isn't selling anything so what's the big deal?

      Man, you guys really need to match up your cycles!
      When he's not boasting he's fine. Makes a lot of promises but never keeps them but then we can all be guilty of that at times. It's just the constant boasting that gets to me. I just point blank don't understand why a copywriter of all people would communicate in such a manner. It irks me. A lot.

      He calls me a great friend. I have his telephone number. I have spoken to him before on the phone. Overall he's not too bad. Having said that, if I met him in person and he started boasting like this - I'd give a bloody good clip around the ear and tell him to stick a sock in it. Make no mistake about it.

      His wealth, if it exists, doesn't impress me in the absolute slightest. I already have almost everything in life I could wish for and want (the basics) - so what makes him think he's better than other people on the basis of a few dead possessions?

      Material possessions are just objects. They only become valuable when we put a value on them. They're just tools. Like I've said before, when you're dying to take a dump your crap doesn't give a sh!t whether you take a dump on a solid gold diamond encrusted bog - your crap, his dumps are going to smell as bad as anyone elses. You can't take all this stuff with you to the grave. It's meaningless. Twaddle.

      When you're fast asleep, does your body care two flying hoots whether or not you sleep in a 6 star hotel, in a four poster bed or on a camping mattress? No, it couldn't care less. Sleep just serves it's purpose. Does it's own thing. Recharges your batteries. What it's supposed to do.

      You may have the fastest car on the planet but soon as you hit a spot of rough ground, what bloody good is it to you? I'd rather have an old Landrover. At least it will get you there no matter what. Who cares if your bum hurts, whack a bloody cushion on the seat for pete's sake! Problem solved.

      In person, we'd drive each other nuts - I'm positively sure of it. He likes a bit of pampering and to be mollycoddled - I like it rough and ready...wysiwyg. He talks all fancy and posh, me I'll just tell you how it is no punches pulled. He's all full of hot air, me? I just fart. It's natural.

      It's a love hate relationship.


      Mark Andrews
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  • Haha!

    I goddamn LOVE this forum! Still, I have one problem....

    I can't seem to figure out whether Mark likes or dislikes Maxty. I mean, one post he's calling for him to come back, the next he's laying into him.

    Hold on - be right back. grabbing some popcorn!


    Anyway, seriously - like Rez said...nothing wrong with the OP. I don't even care if Max brags - whether he's lying or not, this post isn't selling anything so what's the big deal?

    Man, you guys really need to match up your cycles!
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    How do you know Mark isn't a good copywriter? Specifics..?
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    • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
      Originally Posted by cypherslock View Post

      How do you know Mark isn't a good copywriter? Specifics..?
      Listen, I wouldn't bring anything like that up usually. It's not my business, usually.

      However, there's no need for him - or anyone to - start lambasting others just because they say something they don't like personally.

      Especially when he says things like...
      we don't like
      Where does the we come from?

      As far as his copy...

      Specifics?

      You haven't read his copy?
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  • Profile picture of the author maximus242
    The battle of the gurus has begun!

    The van riding copywriting hippi squares off against the miraculous computer nerd who has 3 online virtual girlfriends and is a wealthy god with bentlys and jets in his own mind

    Who will win? Money hungry homeless dude who says he doesnt care about money or the "wealthy in his own mind" nerd who is doing battle to convince everyone he is the next super guru?

    The battle of the copywriting forum gurus has begun!
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    xResponsive Advertising Agency | Direct Marketing | Online Advertising | Create Breakthrough Campaigns for Your Business http://xresponsive.com

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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    Question is: how does one make the jump to full-fledged copywriter after doing articles?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by cypherslock View Post

      Question is: how does one make the jump to full-fledged copywriter after doing articles?
      Sell something, anything, items via the written word consistently.

      How to make the jump? Research and lots of practice. Putting yourself out there. Positioning thyself.

      You become a great lover by trying out lots of new positions.

      Smoking hot,


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author ioan draniciar
    Me, me, me, me. Both of ya are full of me! What a waste of time!
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by ioan draniciar View Post

      Me, me, me, me. Both of ya are full of me! What a waste of time!
      Let's talk about you Ioan...

      what else can you share with us?

      How's things going for you?

      You been doing okay?

      You didn't like the post?

      See you're from Romania...got any new ideas you're using there that would help others around the world?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ioan draniciar View Post

      Me, me, me, me. Both of ya are full of me! What a waste of time!
      Not quite correct but I can see how you might jump to this conclusion based on this thread alone.

      You see, as copywriters we're forever writing from someone elses perspective. We're always trying to see the world around us through the eyes of other people.

      So just every now and then to keep the mind healthy it's actually good for copywriters to talk in the first person about themselves rather than the second person, always talking about the thoughts, feelings and psychology of others.

      Never seen you here in this section before so your take on this might be a little over shadowed by this current banter. Believe you me, we're not always talking about ourselves. In fact, if you go to this section of the forum: Mind Warriors - Success, Power, Self-Improvement you'll see many threads from me for example where I'm constantly putting others interests first.

      A shame I didn't see you posting there though. I'm sure your personal insights would have been exceedingly valuable.

      Smoking hot,


      Mark Andrews
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  • Hey, can we move this to the Motivational and Self-Improvement section? The way these guys are going, we've got two self-improvement gurus in the making! That sub-forum will have a field day!
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  • Profile picture of the author mugwande
    every i find it weird to see someone feeling great about what he has and others calls it bragging!!! if you can't do others do so what?
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    Jesse, you're saying alter egos (perhaps Jekyll/Hyde as opposed to Me Myself and Irene)?
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  • Profile picture of the author JakeDaly
    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

    Sell that soap, baby.

    Sell that soap.
    SOAP WITH A PRIZE INSIDEEEE!
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  • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
    Love ya Max!

    ...you too Mark.

    If it sounds like I've been drinking the kool-aid... maybe, possibly, really? ;-) Let's just say I recently came across something quite profound (no, not copywriting or the secret to 800lb gorilla killer headlines). It's all good.

    Much good stuff to both of you.
    Signature
    Scary good...
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidG
    We should all get together and watch Groundhog day.
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    • Profile picture of the author Rezbi
      Originally Posted by DavidG View Post

      We should all get together and watch Groundhog day.
      Or sing qumbaya, maybe?

      I find Groundhog day a bit too repetitive.
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  • Profile picture of the author cypherslock
    Spaceballs my friends....Spaceballs. Use the SCHWARTZ!
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  • Profile picture of the author Don Grace
    Pfffff... Can't we all just get along and sing Kumbaya
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  • Profile picture of the author JacMer
    Originally Posted by Don Grace View Post

    Pfffff... Can't we all just get along and sing Kumbaya
    Don, That's just it, they are getting along!
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  • Profile picture of the author Tinkerbell
    I love Max5ty. I'm glad you're back. I'd just started coming to this board to read your posts and you disappeared.

    For the most part, what I've read of yours is interesting. Are you a good/great copywriter? Apparently you do okay if I'm coming back to read what you wrote.

    Can't say I do the same for a lot of folks who habitually populate this area, but YES, I do come in to read your posts, Max5ty.

    If you decide to disappear again, how about connecting with me on Skype first? We could probably find at least one interesting topic to chat about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jerome Y
    I think this post is great, it gives hope to people who are deemed as "bad copywriters" by the community but still manage to break through all that by sheer determination.

    Even if what max5ty says sounds like pure B.S. I honestly think that this post isn't exactly impossible either. Just my 2 cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author wilhb81
    Whether you're a good or bad copywriter, as long as clients buy your products, then you're the winner in the end!
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  • Profile picture of the author ronboyartesti
    Just in your imagination. Wake up.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    I hate to be the one to pull this a bit back to the OP ... okay, no I don't .

    One of the books I read from time to time is The Go Getter by Peter B. Kyne. It is available for download free at the Gutenberg Project. Well worth reading for anyone having a problem understanding what a go getter is. And one thing of note is the lack of complaining.

    Marvin
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  • Profile picture of the author AshwaniGaur
    I've seen Mark dissing the OP in other threads too...I don't know any of them. BUT Mark might consider looking at the brighter side of things.

    No disrespect Mark, you're an awesome contributor and a heck of a copywriter from what I can read...but please let the man be!
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