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Inconsistencies in the Copywriting Forum as I see it ...

by Raydal
16 replies
Whenever I see a post where someone was looking
to hire a copywriter I would direct them to the this section
of the forum because I thought that was the "rule" or
practice here.

Most people would apologize and comply but some
just ignore the message and the post survives. I have
no issues with people posting that they are looking
for a copywriter, but I thought that was frowned upon
here.

I think that the recent "$XXXXX competitions" fall
in the same bracket as well. The poster is looking
for a copywriter but only a winning one. So just
add a competition angle to your post and you can
bypass the "looking for a copywriter" rule of
posting in the "hire a warrior" section.

Again, I have no bias either way about whether to
allow such posts or not, but I think that the moderators
need to be consistent and clear about what posts are
allowed and which ones are not.

At present, my understanding is that if you are looking
to hire a Warrior you post here. If I'm wrong I'll like
to know so that I can stop "correcting" posters who
make such posts in this forum.

-Ray Edwards
#copywriting #forum #inconsistencies
  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Ray,

    Your desire for consistency and clarity are duly noted but I don't agree that the mods "need" to do anything about this. We already do what "needs" doing here, daily.

    Part of being a moderator is to balance structure and rules with the fluid and dynamic nature of a discussion forum.

    Is it good for the forum? That's the overriding question for me... not necessarily an obligation to fairness or compliance with doctrine.

    If we look to the Dan Caron contest as an example, everyone got what they needed - except for those looking to piss on the concept on principle. Yet, even they got their turn at the mic to bitch about it, so...

    Consequently, the popularity of these competitions leads me to believe they are in fact good for this forum until they become problematic and to whatever extent that's unfair... such is the price of progress.

    In general, YES -- "I'm looking for a copywriter" posts should be paid threads in the Warriors For Hire section. Thus, when noticed, they often disappear or get closed by a mod.

    But I don't believe that the majority of folks who post them here do so with sneaky intentions of skirting the "rules". It's only logical that the copywriting section is where copywriters are...

    Surely nobody wants to construct artificial barriers to clients finding the writers they want, and writers finding the clients they need.

    At the same time, maintaining order dictates that there needs to be SOME understanding of what's kosher and what isn't.

    A straight up want ad should be posted in WFH.

    And though the thread may get closed to ongoing discussion, posting a notification about it and linking to it from here doesn't even feel out of bounds to me.

    As for "competition" threads, the jury is still out. From my perspective it comes down to how everyone behaves surrounding them.

    Best,

    Brian
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    Brian McLeod
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      Ray,

      Your desire for consistency and clarity are duly noted but I don't agree that the mods "need" to do anything about this. We already do what "needs" doing here, daily.
      Brian,

      As I mentioned I have no problems with these post
      either way. I just wanted to know what the standard
      was so that I don't interfere with legitimate posts
      by directing them to the "for hire" section.

      One starts to feel foolish directing people to a section
      of the forum when it was not necessary.

      And I think that if I posted a competition post that
      I'm getting free promotion and the benefit is
      one-sided. Of course a Warrior wins but I'm not sure
      that the forum really benefits.

      But that's just my view.

      -Ray Edwards
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      The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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      • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
        Banned
        For clarification purposes, if it's a contest,
        shouldn't the threads be posted in this
        section of the Warrior Forum?

        Member Contests & Challenges

        Obviously if it's a copywriter wanted ad
        then those belong in here:

        Wanted - Members Looking To Hire You
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        • Profile picture of the author Raydal
          Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

          For clarification purposes, if it's a contest,
          shouldn't the threads be posted in this
          section of the Warrior Forum?

          Member Contests & Challenges

          Obviously if it's a copywriter wanted ad
          then those belong in here:

          Wanted - Members Looking To Hire You
          This was my impression, hence my question/observations.

          In the contest section, this is what Admin posted:

          Members with at least 200 posts or more can start a contest or challenge for other members of the forum.

          These seem to be very popular and I don't see what it could hurt so I've decided to create this section dedicated to them.

          If it's obvious that you're creating a contest just to make money or promote something it won't be accepted. However, if you end up making a dime because you ran a contest I certainly don't mind. I hope you do.

          Have fun!

          Allen
          People use to post these contests in the main forum before
          they were frowned upon and Allen made this special section.

          And note that you had to have 200 posts to make one.

          -Ray Edwards
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          The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    I'll just speak personally...

    I hardly ever venture into the parts of the forum (much less participate.)

    I think it makes sense for people who are posting for copywriting gigs to create their threads here.

    They'll reach more copywriters who almost exclusively come here than if they post in the Warriors for Hire section.

    Same with the copywriting contests.

    I just think there should be more strict guidelines (like exact project specifications, budget, expected time of delivery, etc.)

    I believe it makes the CW Forum look bad when low-ballers come in here taking a pi$$ on the profession by purposely withholding vital information to find the lowest bidder.

    My take is:

    If you're looking for copywriting help, you should be 100% transparent with every aspect of your project - otherwise, it's just blatant disrespect.

    If I'm approaching you, then sure, I'll bid.

    Why NOT demand those standards from those who are looking to leverage copywriting in their business?

    Especially since we CAN.

    Seriously.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      I'll just speak personally...

      I hardly ever venture into the parts of the forum (much less participate.)

      I think it makes sense for people who are posting for copywriting gigs to create their threads here.

      They'll reach more copywriters who almost exclusively come here than if they post in the Warriors for Hire section.
      I agree 1000%.

      Take a look at some of the Wanted To Hire threads where someone wants to hire a copywriter. Generally speaking, *most* of the people who post replies in those threads are not the same people who are active in the copywriting forum.

      Trying to speak objectively, most of those WTH replies are from people who are not at the same skill level as the vast majority of the copywriting forum participants. There are some great copywriters who participate in this forum who probably have never opened a WTH copywriting thread to see what the forum member is looking for... they just never head over to that part of the Warrior Forum.

      Same with the copywriting contests.
      To date, I know a number of copywriters (Vin Montello, John Hostler, Bruce Wedding, Nick N, Tony Wells) who won a copywriting contest or placed highly... then turned around and used that to elevate their business and reputation to a much higher level.

      I don't have a problem with any copywriting contest as long as the person running it... runs it fairly and follows through on paying the promised rewards.

      To date, I've done one copywriting contest... a few years ago it was the Warrior Forum's contest for selling the War Room membership. I entered it mostly for Warrior Forum bragging rights and to see if I could write a strong letter really fast.

      Ultimately, my letter that I spent 90 minutes putting together was a finalist but did not win. C'est la vie... I still managed to get 2 new client projects and about a dozen new leads in less than a week from simply participating.

      Would I enter another contest? Probably not... I'm already consistently busy as a copywriter. For me to write a salesletter that I feel best represents me... that's 30-40 hours of work... time that I'd be taking away from guaranteed payment work. But if I weren't a full-time copywriter... if I were new or struggling to break out to the next level professionally, then I'd consider it depending on my available time, the product, and the payout.

      I just think there should be more strict guidelines (like exact project specifications, budget, expected time of delivery, etc.)
      There is one that Daniel Scott wrote but it's part of this sticky thread:

      http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...tml#post871449

      I believe it makes the CW Forum look bad when low-ballers come in here taking a pi$$ on the profession by purposely withholding vital information to find the lowest bidder.

      My take is:

      If you're looking for copywriting help, you should be 100% transparent with every aspect of your project - otherwise, it's just blatant disrespect.

      If I'm approaching you, then sure, I'll bid.

      Why NOT demand those standards from those who are looking to leverage copywriting in their business?

      Especially since we CAN.

      Seriously.

      Mark
      There are some people who try to hide their low-paying projects but my gut feeling is there are a lot of them who just don't read the sticky on how to write up their copywriting project needs. They just throw up a "I need a copywriter" thread instead.

      As for low-paying projects... it's just a different part of the market that I choose not to work with. It doesn't make their copywriting needs any less real IMHO.

      Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author verial
    Why not let them come here? After all, part of internet marketing is knowing how to target the right audience. If they come here instead of "Warriors for Hire," they'll

    1) Be sure that copywriters are reading their request.
    2) Reduce the chance that non-copywriters throw out a bid for a project.
    3) Perhaps get some free and useful advice.
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  • Profile picture of the author 1robert
    Here's what I think is the problem...

    The design of the forum is outdated. If you never been on the warrior forum before, it feels like you're visiting Craigslist for the first time. Its like going back to the 90's when every website was built on HTML. Its Hard to find what you're looking for and at first glance it looks like a get-rich-quick website.

    The reason why marketers come here looking for copywriters is because they don't have time to sift through all the sub forums trying to find what they are looking for. Plus, no one want's to go through a copywriters directory and contact a hundred copywriters trying to find the right copywriter.

    A copywriters for hire forum would be an easy way to solve this problem, but that might require a lot of coding. I'm just guessing.

    As far as the contests go, I don't like them. It makes me mad when I see business owners who already have a winning sales letter come in and try and crowd source a revision of their sales letter when I have to pay top dollar. All they are trying to do is find the best copywriter without having to pay $25,000 plus royalties.

    That's not the only problem I see. Take a look at the WSO's. If you work hard creating a really good product, you have to compete with other marketers who are giving away a product for free. If I spend $60 for a WSO, I don't want to compete with people who are giving away 12 page reports for free - just so they can build a list.

    Not to mention if you go to a private forum, you'll find tons of Warriors giving away free products. That's where these free WSO's should be listed.

    The forum needs a complete overhaul, and a lot of these issues would fix themselves. I'm actually willing to bet that a new design would attract thousands of new people especially will the love the forum gets from Google in the search results.

    I love the Warrior forum, but I see a lot of changes that need to be made if its going to continue being a good resource.

    That's my 2 cents :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by 1robert View Post


      Here's what I think is the problem...
      Can't say I disagree with you Robert. Overall the forum is awfully outdated now.

      I'm with you as are a great number of other people on the quiet, behind the scenes, who similarly feel the WF has gone to pot dramatically in the past year or two.

      Truth is though, though I hate to say it, recommending any changes here is a bit of a pointless exercise. Many have tried making suggestions before, unfortunately each time one does so, you'll be lucky to get an acknowledgement nevermind the changes actually being implemented.

      It's just the way it is, I've given up trying to make suggestions these days. They all fall on deaf ears anyway, it's just a waste of time putting forward these ideas for change.

      Sad but true.


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    In keeping with my general philosophy of not going with the flow, I tend to like the forum pretty much as it is.

    If anyone has looked at the visitor count on the first page, the site numbers have been rising since I first joined a couple of years ago.

    And unfortunately, a more "updated" look generally translates to more bandwidth required. And I'll admit I am impatient and really dislike waiting for pages to load. I've noticed things loading a bit more slowly at times.

    Personally, I come here for the information, and not for the layout.

    Marvin
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mark,

      "For clarification purposes," if Brian says it's okay in this section, you should assume it's okay in this section.

      The general rule for the "Warriors wanting to hire you" threads is meant to stop the flood of wildly varying (and usually pointless) requests in the more general sections. Mostly main discussion and offtopic.
      I'm with you as are a great number of other people on the quiet, behind the scenes, who similarly feel the WF has gone to pot dramatically in the past year or two.
      As far as I know, the exit door is well-marked and remains unlocked.

      We've made quite a few changes here over the past couple of years, almost all of them in response to member suggestions and requests. It would be impossible to make them all, especially since so many are (unsurprisingly) mutually exclusive.

      The fact that we may not implement YOUR preferred suggestions doesn't mean we're ignoring everyone. Or even you.

      Nothing is perfect, and the more people you put into the mix, the less perfect it will be for any one individual.


      Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author i580n
      The Warrior Forum is the 190th most visited website on Earth. That's in front of websites like Yelp, Myspace (yes...Warrior Forum receives more traffic than Myspace ), Squidoo, Groupon, and Webs, just to name a few. It has been showing consistent growth for a very long time. Why change anything?
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Originally Posted by i580n View Post

        The Warrior Forum is the 190th most visited website on Earth. [...] Why change anything?
        I suspect those stats are based on Alexa, which shows results that are skewed toward people likely to have the toolbar installed. Marketers, it seems, are high among those users. So, it's not an accurate representation of the real ranking.

        That said, if changes improve things, they should be considered. That's part of how you keep growing...


        Paul
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  • Profile picture of the author Corey Geer
    I'm at a cross roads here, because while it might be technically the rule that if you're looking to hire someone, you should have to post in the hiring section, how many qualified writers can a client expect to find in that section?

    I browse it from time to time to see what's going on or who needs help but the majority of what I see are "agencies" and foreigners that turn the thread into responses like this:

    "Hi I pm you"
    "Pm sent please respond"
    "I can do this for you"
    "I do this for $10"

    Usually they completely ignore any instructions left in the original thread. It might be the technical 'rule' but they're probably not interested in weeding out 100 random broken English PMs and "agencies" with 100 more of those same people ready to slave away.

    Why change anything?
    You have to change... my old landlord for example.

    Been in business for 30 years because of a generous grant from her Husband to let her start her company on the main street of the town. I still say it was to make sure she wasn't home bugging him.

    Her business was booming for quite some time when the town was known as a "shopping town" and there was always life about. However.. the activity started to diminish and her business started going down. She had to start firing people but yet, she wouldn't change how she did things or business.

    Soon before you know it, she now only has 1 employee who works for free and yet she REFUSES to change anything. Whether it's ignorance or denial, change is something you have to implement into every business, if you want to keep the business alive.

    Just like marketing strategies and SEO changes frequently. If Google didn't change anything, we'd have people ranking for Viagra on golf websites all over again utilizing meta tags.

    Change is good.. change is awesome..

    The design of the forum is outdated. If you never been on the warrior forum before, it feels like you're visiting Craigslist for the first time. Its like going back to the 90's when every website was built on HTML. Its Hard to find what you're looking for and at first glance it looks like a get-rich-quick website.
    Another forum just got a brand new layout... can't say I'm impressed with it or that a lot of people like it. That's the problem when you change something such as a layout when a mass of people visit your site. There was no warning or voting to determine whether people liked it or not.

    When you implement something as huge as a new layout for a site with hundreds of thousands of members, you risk losing a lot of that traffic. Besides, at least it's not a Geocities style website with the dancing baby gif and a spinning globe. I think it's alright for a while.
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