My thoughts on John Carlton and his seminar

96 replies
So... I've seen a few threads lately about John
and Stan's upcoming seminar and whether or not it's
worth going to.

Well, I've been marketing online and very successful since
2001. So I'm coming up on my 12th year.

And without a doubt, I can count on one hand the number
of mentors/coaches/experts that have helped me get
where I am today.

John is probably at the top of my list of people
who have helped my marketing get to the point
of where it is.

I was an early Insider with John back in 2003 or
so and his help got me and my fitness business
over the million dollar mark back then.

But here's the thing.

I was scared as hell to invest any money in
John and his course initially.

I was scared of failing, I was scared of not
making the money back, I was scared of
all kinds of things.

But, if there's one thing I've learned over the
years that has made me more money than
anything else... some times you just have to
push through that fear and take action.

Like Nike said... Just Do It.

So, I took the leap of faith back then
and I'm so glad I did.

Hindsight being 20/20, I would have
paid 100 times more than I paid
to learn what I learned from John.

But again, I was scared to make the
investment. That deep, heavy fear
that almost feels like anxiety.

Anyways, I broke through that fear,
invested in John, and went on to
make a heck of a lot of money from
what I learned.

So, if you're on the fence about going
to John's seminar, or investing in his
freelance course, or his kick ass secrets
course... just do it. Break through any
fear, put that fear aside, and just do it.

You'll be SO much better off.
#carlton #john #seminar #thoughts
  • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
    Yeah, I wish it was just fear that was the problem...Damn cashflow! Too much on this year.
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Buda - same thing here. News about the seminar couldn't have come at a worse time as I have all my extra funds tied up in a big marketing push. However, when I brought it up to friends and family, they decided to help me raise funds to go LOL. So right now I've got two campaigns going - one for my own business, and another to go to the Action Seminar.

      Thanks for the recommendation, Shawn. I wasn't on the fence but money was definitely the problem. Thankfully we have a work-around now.
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      • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
        Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

        Buda - same thing here. News about the seminar couldn't have come at a worse time as I have all my extra funds tied up in a big marketing push. However, when I brought it up to friends and family, they decided to help me raise funds to go LOL. So right now I've got two campaigns going - one for my own business, and another to go to the Action Seminar.

        Thanks for the recommendation, Shawn. I wasn't on the fence but money was definitely the problem. Thankfully we have a work-around now.
        Angie, that's awesome... tell your friends and family that it's an investment and they'll definitely reap the rewards :-)

        Of course, for those who can't afford the seminar, John's courses can
        help you more than just about anything else.

        But it's really about what Harlan and others have been saying.

        It's a chance to mingle and meet with clients, face to face... where
        a lot of the real "big" deals get made.

        In all honesty, most seminars I've been too didn't really provide
        me with any new info or stuff that I wasn't already aware of.

        But what it DID provide was the networking opportunities.

        This is where you make your money back in spades... it's not
        just from the info you learn there, it's the networking and
        deal making.

        So, when you think about seminars... they actually help
        you on 2 levels. The information if you don't know it... and
        the deal making.

        I don't go to many of them anymore, because I don't like
        being away from my son for more than a day, but the 2
        I have gone to attributed to over $120,000 in long term
        copy gigs.

        I remember reading something that Lawrence Bernstein
        wrote a few years back... regarding the Bencivenga seminar...

        He wrote on his site something about being bankrupt and borrowing
        the $5 thousand registration fee from his wife...and mom.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Anybody else want to jump on the John Carlton bandwagon? Give it a rest will you. Or better yet get the man to take out an ad. I'm sick of hearing this being beaten up. Blatant promotion. Completely over the top. He doesn't walk on water. He's just a copywriter...with a course. So far we've had one of the moderators spruiking it...two of the speakers...now you. What's next?
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    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Anybody else want to jump on the John Carlton bandwagon? Give it a rest will you. Or better yet get the man to take out an ad. I'm sick of hearing this being beaten up. Blatant promotion. Completely over the top. He doesn't walk on water. He's just a copywriter...with a course. So far we've had one of the moderators spruiking it...one of the speakers...now you. What's next?
      (Violins playing)
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Anybody else want to jump on the John Carlton bandwagon? Give it a rest will you. Or better yet get the man to take out an ad. I'm sick of hearing this being beaten up. Blatant promotion. Completely over the top. He doesn't walk on water. He's just a copywriter...with a course. So far we've had one of the moderators spruiking it...one of the speakers...now you. What's next?
      Well, unlike some of the folks on this board who do nothing
      but come on here and bash others... I just like giving credit
      where credit is due.

      I'd love to take a tally on those who John Carlton have
      helped... and those you've helped. John at least goes by
      his own name.

      But yeah, I'm sure the tally would be SLIGHTLY in John's
      favor... since he's at least known.
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

        Well, unlike some of the folks on this board who do nothing
        but come on here and bash others... I just like giving credit
        where credit is due.

        I'd love to take a tally on those who John Carlton have
        helped... and those you've helped. John at least goes by
        his own name.

        But yeah, I'm sure the tally would be SLIGHTLY in John's
        favor... since he's at least known.
        You think I do nothing but "bash people" huh? As for the rest...you have no clue who I've helped nor is it pertinent. I also go by my own name - have a look to the left. I also have a brand - as does JC. "Since he's at least known" - another dig at me huh? As far as I'm concerned JC is "Halbert Lite". But some of you just seem to think he's God's gift to copywriting. Not in my book. I can think of plenty of others just as good if not better than your hero. But sure...joining his crew will help your career, no doubt about it.
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        • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
          Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

          I can think of plenty of others just as good if not better than your hero.
          OK, so name one person actively teaching copywriting today who could beat John Carlton in a head-to-head split test.
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          • Profile picture of the author OutOfThisWord
            If the niche was Health or Financial, Clayton Makepeace would likely trounce.

            But Carlton would likely beat him in Golf or Muscle Building.
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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

            OK, so name one person actively teaching copywriting today who could beat John Carlton in a head-to-head split test.
            "actively teaching copywriting". You mean "flogging a copywriting course".
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            • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

              "actively teaching copywriting". You mean "flogging a copywriting course".
              Whatever you say. I personally think you should show some respect for those who came before you, but everyone here knows you have no respect for anyone.
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              • Profile picture of the author max5ty
                Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

                Whatever you say. I personally think you should show some respect for those who came before you, but everyone here knows you have no respect for anyone.
                Dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

                Could you point me to a post Carlton has done here?

                Any free advice he's given to us who are looking for ways to make money?

                No...you can't. He'll take your money though for another seminar.

                Mal has given a great deal of his time to help others. He's done some great things for others when it comes to making money.

                Get off your knees when it comes to others who want your money without taking the time to visit our forum.

                Why is it all your "gurus" want some cash to tell you how to get rich?
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                • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                  Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

                  Dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

                  Could you point me to a post Carlton has done here?

                  Any free advice he's given to us who are looking for ways to make money?

                  No...you can't. He'll take your money though for another seminar.

                  Mal has given a great deal of his time to help others. He's done some great things for others when it comes to making money.

                  Get off your knees when it comes to others who want your money without taking the time to visit our forum.

                  Why is it all your "gurus" want some cash to tell you how to get rich?
                  What I said obviously went right over your head because I'm talking about old pros who have contributed to the body of copywriting knowledge in general. Carlton is one of them. In my opinion they should all be respected.

                  This copywriting forum used to be a place of learning where people helped and respected one another. Now it's turned into a friggin dump because of people like the copy nazi and you.

                  That's why I hardly post here anymore. Your disrespectful attitudes toward people on this forum and other copywriters make me sick.
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                  • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                    Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                    If it is a dump, it's because of the constant adoration of dead and nearly dead copywriters, the encouraging of exploitation of members by staff who should know better, and the monotonous flogging of courses by copy cubs and self-serving copywriters.

                    Copywriting is seldom discussed. When it is, it generally consists of paeans to early 20th Century direct mail mavens everyone has read and no one in his right mind would strive to emulate.
                    Heh? Speak American
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                    • Profile picture of the author Biz Max
                      Between the petty jealously and megalomaniacs, this whole thread is depressing.

                      I don't venture down here often but lately it has become an unwelcome refuge
                      for 'good ole boys' who like to kick sand at anyone who does not follow their
                      ground rules.

                      Re-read this thread and then ask yourself why are you doing this rather than
                      being productive. Go make some money. Take a break from the forum....
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                      • Profile picture of the author copyassassin
                        Originally Posted by OfflineGold View Post


                        Re-read this thread and then ask yourself why are you doing this rather than
                        being productive. Go make some money. Take a break from the forum....

                        OfflineGold,

                        I think Mal has a valid issue:

                        Our need to glorify, deify, idolize, and become mesmerized by charismatic figures can become nauseating.

                        I'd venture that even John thinks its funny people feel this way about him.

                        Most celebrities I've worked with feel that way. Especially movie stars that break after a big film.

                        One minute they can't make rent, the next people are following them and taking pictures while they eat.

                        I think the issue Mal is indirectly talking about is our irrational tendency to glorify these figures.

                        Yes, John is a great copywriter. But, there are others as well.

                        John is just the best positioned.

                        Check this book out:
                        The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass...The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass...
                        Also, watch the Oscar backstage speech by Jennifer Lawrence. She's the mega star who probably finds her "status" a bit weird:


                        Adam
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                        • Profile picture of the author Biz Max
                          I disagree copyassassin, I have read enough posts to know some just like to stir the
                          pot. TONS of ego and self importance. Whether some people think Carlton a god
                          or not is irrelevant.

                          Let's switch names and professions. What if some guy started talking about how much
                          Eddie Van Halen inspired them? Then some guy who has done much of nothing spouts
                          off "Eddie is overrated and I'm sick of hearing about him".

                          I find it strange to attack another person's inspiration. Perhaps you have grown used to
                          it. I found nothing wrong with the OP's post. No doubt it is coupled with the other Carlton
                          post that is the annoyance.

                          I PROMISE you if the people bitching were the ones being praised they'd be eating
                          it up.... they would not say "I'm sick of it".
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                    • Profile picture of the author JasonParker
                      Originally Posted by Ken_Caudill View Post

                      My bad. I thought I was addressing a professional writer. I'll break things down to monosyllabic (that means one syllable) grunts, stock phrases and red headlines for you in the future.
                      Actually I'm a professional salesman, so no offense taken.

                      I talk how people talk.

                      You talk like you're reciting Webster's dictionary.

                      More power to ya.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Biz Max
                        They should re-name this forum 'The Antagonists Forum' :rolleyes:
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                • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                  Max5ty,
                  Could you point me to a post Carlton has done here?
                  How is that relevant? This forum is a very small place in the scheme of things.

                  I seriously believe we should just fold this section back into main discussion and let some of the egos cut themselves loose.


                  Paul
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                • Profile picture of the author deezn
                  Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

                  Dumbest thing I've heard in a long time.

                  Could you point me to a post Carlton has done here?

                  Any free advice he's given to us who are looking for ways to make money?

                  No...you can't.
                  He'll take your money though for another seminar.

                  Mal has given a great deal of his time to help others. He's done some great things for others when it comes to making money.

                  Get off your knees when it comes to others who want your money without taking the time to visit our forum.

                  Why is it all your "gurus" want some cash to tell you how to get rich?
                  Well, that's not entirely true.

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post4948076

                  http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post5165104

                  He's posted here twice.

                  MikeHumphreys. Excellent post. I do notice even the masters have their niches.

                  Is there any masters or gurus in the legal advertising field? I can't think of any. Closest I can think of would maybe be financial, but not the get rich quick financial stuff.

                  But I could be wrong.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                    Mal,
                    Why do you have to come in with your "big stick" Paul? We can sort it out ourselves. We always have.
                    And we generally ignore it, at least in this section of the forum.

                    There was no "stick swinging" involved. Just a reminder that the fact that someone is a mod should have no bearing on their posts, unless those posts are made in that capacity.

                    Mark,
                    Much as Mal and myself today cannot stand each others guts, unlike the days of old (when we did actually get along with one another) he's right in saying 'we're all big boys and girls' in this section of the forum.
                    Etc.

                    This is possibly the most hypocritical little rant I've heard in a year or more.

                    I do this so rarely, I can't think of the last time. I believe it's appropriate at this point, though... Would anyone care to guess who reported Mal's comment to the mods?


                    Paul
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                    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                      This is possibly the most hypocritical little rant I've heard in a year or more.

                      I do this so rarely, I can't think of the last time. I believe it's appropriate at this point, though... Would anyone care to guess who reported Mal's comment to the mods?


                      Paul
                      Come on Paul, you can do better than that.

                      Yes I reported post #5 by Mal, no others.

                      His other reply though, it was actually bang on the money.

                      Calling me a hypocrite matters not to me one jot.

                      The conversation progressed beyond post #5.

                      Life does that, it moves on.


                      Mark Andrews
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Mark,
                        His other reply though, it was actually bang on the money.
                        It might have been, except that I didn't ask anyone to calm down or be civil or anything else that might have fit with what he said.

                        It might be useful to actually reply to what's said, rather than looking for an excuse to inject your opinions on the state of the forum. As far as those, though... No-one is forcing you to stay, are they?


                        Paul
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                        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
                          Banned
                          No excuses, I was simply stating my mind like yourself. Man to man. There's really no need to take such umbrage at these remarks and/or observations. This isn't a competition of words Paul. Frankly, I don't understand what point you're now trying to prove.

                          Catch ya later.


                          Mark Andrews
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                          • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                            Frankly, I don't understand what point you're now trying to prove.
                            Prove? Nothing at all.

                            As far as "umbrage," either you don't know what the word means or you're really bad at interpreting the mental states of others based on their choice of words. Or you're just trolling, and suck at it.


                            Paul
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                            • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                              Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                              Or you're just trolling, and suck at it.

                              Paul
                              Double ouch!

                              Best,
                              Ewen
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                              • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                                Ewen,
                                Double ouch!
                                I'm sure that seemed like a jab to some folks. It wasn't. It was meant literally.

                                Mark routinely complains to the mods and in public about some folks in this section being too "harsh" or "rude." Most of the time I don't see the comments he reports as getting anywhere close to the lines. Especially for this group.

                                For him to then post about people here being big boys and girls, and act as though he thinks folks should be left to play rough, seems more than a little incongruous. Unless he's trolling.


                                Paul
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                                • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
                                  Everybody chill

                                  This whole debate is in the wrong thread anyway. I believe Shawn's post was sincere and without ulterior motive.

                                  Now the other thread... Reminds me of a mountain peak near Colorado Springs.
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                    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
                      Banned
                      Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

                      Mal,And we generally ignore it, at least in this section of the forum.

                      There was no "stick swinging" involved. Just a reminder that the fact that someone is a mod should have no bearing on their posts, unless those posts are made in that capacity.

                      Mark,Etc.

                      This is possibly the most hypocritical little rant I've heard in a year or more.

                      I do this so rarely, I can't think of the last time. I believe it's appropriate at this point, though... Would anyone care to guess who reported Mal's comment to the mods?


                      Paul
                      OK so now I get it. Andrews up to his usual nonsense. This is the same guy that you personally banned for life. The same Andrews that snuck back in posting as a girl - Sally Something-or-other. Was allowed to stay - "as long as he behaved himself" (I still have your PM to me about it). Reverted to the same old same old. Announced recently that he was quitting the forum for good. And yet...here he is again stirring up trouble. And you let him get away with it. OK...I'll leave you to it. But now I understand.

                      As for the other - yeah you were swinging your stick and having a swipe at me. Over what? Over an innocuous comment about a Mod and others beating up this JC event - what you call "organic buzz". A comment that would have in all probability gone unnoticed if it weren't for you-know-who running to you to have a whinge.

                      So long, and thanks for all the fish. I think your "moderation" sucks.
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                      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
                        Mal,
                        So long, and thanks for all the fish. I think your "moderation" sucks.
                        Confirmation bias is a powerful thing. Another page from "Copywriting 101."

                        Funny thing... None of my preceding posts in this thread were actually moderation activities. They were civil discussion, which I believe to be a legitimate perq of any member.

                        Confusing the person with the role is a common mistake.

                        Just for the record, I am not the one who "perma-banned" Mark. I'm the one who let him back in. But I'll damned sure be the one he screams horrible things about when his ego pushes him to his old ways and he has to be banned again. And he's about one snark away from that point.
                        Over an innocuous comment about a Mod and others beating up this JC event
                        "Innocuous" is a matter of perspective.

                        I see what our mods deal with every day, and the effort they put in. I see the abuse they take, largely because people with standing in the community get their egos in an uproar, or are careless about this kind of comment. The real whingers run with the ball and it cascades.

                        Throwaway comments like the one I objected to are often the most destructive. And I've decided I'm going to start pruning them from the top down. Along with obnoxious feuds like the one you and Mark have run the mods through for ages.

                        Yeah, Mark has his foot on the gas pedal. But you have control of the brake, and you don't use it.

                        You've probably studied a little (or a lot) of Jay's stuff, and are familiar with the "endless parade" concept. Apply that to this situation, and tell me how that fits...


                        Paul
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                        • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                          Mark Andrews also had a pen name Pete Young too many may not know.

                          Best,
                          Ewen
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                          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
                            Banned
                            Originally Posted by ewenmack View Post

                            Mark Andrews also had a pen name Pete Young too many may not know.

                            Best,
                            Ewen
                            Dunno about that one...but he also had "247 Copywriting"..."Pete Walker"..."Sally McPherson" and God knows what else. All in flagrant breach of the rule "Only one account per person" (Confirmed by Paul in a post 11/16/2011)

                            Here have a laugh. This is Andrews in his cross-dressing guise -

                            Dear Fellow Copywriters

                            Greetings all.

                            My name is Sally McPherson, long form sales letter copywriter.

                            A good friend of mine recommended this forum by email, telling me it was an excellent community so I thought to drop in and introduce myself.

                            I've been a copywriter for a few years now although this is my first forage actually posting on such a large forum as this one.

                            I'm a bit of a chatterbox, love talking and communication, coming up with bright ideas to effectively communicate products and services to their respective target audiences.

                            Thirty two years old, single, love my foreign travel visiting as many locations around the world as possible. I'm constantly on the move every 5-10 days as I seek more adventure out of life.

                            I'm looking forward to participating here and hope you can put up with my company.

                            Thank you for having me here.

                            Love, bright colors, smiles, sunshine and positive thoughts...


                            Sally
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                            • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
                              My mistake, it was Pete Walker, not Pete Young.

                              It's like he's got an addictive behavior,
                              can't give up smoking, can't give up this place.

                              Like Arfa said, "he'll be back"

                              Best,
                              Ewen

                              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

                              Dunno about that one...but he also had "247 Copywriting"..."Pete Walker"..."Sally McPherson" and God knows what else. All in flagrant breach of the rule "Only one account per person" (Confirmed by Paul in a post 11/16/2011)

                              Here have a laugh. This is Andrews in his cross-dressing guise -
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                            • Profile picture of the author TheSalesBooster
                              Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

                              Dunno about that one...but he also had "247 Copywriting"..."Pete Walker"..."Sally McPherson" and God knows what else. All in flagrant breach of the rule "Only one account per person" (Confirmed by Paul in a post 11/16/2011)

                              Here have a laugh. This is Andrews in his cross-dressing guise -


                              Lmao this thread gets better by the day...
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                              • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
                                Banned
                                Originally Posted by TheSalesBooster View Post


                                Lmao this thread gets better by the day...
                                Thing is, he had a nice little racket going with this - quoting and accepting gigs under different guises. God knows how he fudged the payment processor when Sally suddenly morphed into Mark.

                                I'm not a lawyer...nor do I pretend to play one...but I'm pretty sure this comes under "misrepresentation".

                                I've just been reliably informed he also went by the moniker "Lou Krapper". And that about sums it up.

                                (Go ahead and report this post too Lou, you Muppet)
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                        • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
                          Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post


                          Yeah, Mark has his foot on the gas pedal. But you have control of the brake

                          Paul
                          As for gas pedals, not only Mark...John, Dan, Jay, and 101 others. Keep one foot on your brake and count to 100 before you post...or BUY.

                          Or not. Your time. Your money.

                          gjabiz
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                          • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
                            Originally Posted by gjabiz View Post

                            As for gas pedals, not only Mark...John, Dan, Jay, and 101 others. Keep one foot on your brake and count to 100 before you post...or BUY.

                            Or not. Your time. Your money.

                            gjabiz
                            Should that not be 97? Or does that only work for dollars...
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
            Originally Posted by JasonParker View Post

            OK, so name one person actively teaching copywriting today who could beat John Carlton in a head-to-head split test.
            It depends on the niche and the product being written about.

            Not every copywriter excels at writing copy for every niche. Smart copywriters choose what niches and products to specialize in. Many of the copywriting "gurus" who still write copy have chosen to specialize as well.

            Here's a good personal example: My first business was a one-person massage therapy business that I started in 1993 and built up into a full-blown massage therapy center with nine additional therapists and 2 admin staff. All told, I was actively working in that field for more than 12 years and built my business from the ground up with my copywriting/marketing skills. I started creating my first info-products in 2004 and they were in the massage marketing niche.

            At the risk of bragging, in a head-to-head competition for massage-related products, there are very few copywriters who would probably beat me because of the level of knowledge I have for that niche, it's target markets, and my copywriting/marketing skills.

            However, I know practically nothing about golf. I also have zero interest in taking up the sport even though my grandfather played on the PGA for several years.

            There are A LOT of copywriters out there who would probably beat me in a head-to-head competition in that niche.

            But I'm smart enough to realize that the golf niche isn't an area of strength for me... doing so could hurt my professional reputation as a top-notch copywriter too... so I don't write copy for the golf niche at all.

            Food for thought,

            Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author BizManRobert
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Anybody else want to jump on the John Carlton bandwagon? Give it a rest will you. Or better yet get the man to take out an ad. I'm sick of hearing this being beaten up. Blatant promotion. Completely over the top. He doesn't walk on water. He's just a copywriter...with a course. So far we've had one of the moderators spruiking it...one of the speakers...now you. What's next?
      AGREED...

      Hey folks, for those that don't know, John Carlton studied under the late Gary Halbert...I have materials on copy writing from both, maybe its just me, but I can tell You that Gary Halbert's stuff is far superior for learning, Gary had a unique and humorous way to teach..which for me is sadly missed...

      Anyway, As the man himself used to say, check out his site:
      Code:
      http://www.thegaryhalbertletter.com/
      Its all FREE, download and start copying in your own hand writing some of the most FAMOUS of his sales letters...
      You'll soon be on ya way to writing and understanding GREAT copy without going to an seminar...
      Signature
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      "Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the results of other people's thinking. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition." ~ Steve Jobs (RIP)
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    • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
      Mal,
      So far we've had one of the moderators spruiking it...one of the speakers...now you. What's next?
      Report the speaker, if you think that's inappropriate. It may be, depending on the context.

      As far as the moderator... unless there's an affiliate link or other material connection that's not disclosed, how is that a problem? Are we not allowed to express opinions on the merits of various products and services here, just like the other members?

      Newsflash, sir: More than half of the senior moderators here were members 10 years or more before you joined our little club. 100% of the mods have invested far more effort maintaining this site than you have. If you think that spending time keeping the place usable for you disqualifies us from the perqs the rest of the members enjoy, you need to replace your logic processor.


      Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
        Ken,
        Do you honestly mean to tell me that you don't know a marketing effort when you see it?
        Do you honestly mean to tell me you didn't see my caveat about undisclosed material connections?


        Paul
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

        Mal,Report the speaker, if you think that's inappropriate. It may be, depending on the context.

        As far as the moderator... unless there's an affiliate link or other material connection that's not disclosed, how is that a problem? Are we not allowed to express opinions on the merits of various products and services here, just like the other members?

        Newsflash, sir: More than half of the senior moderators here were members 10 years or more before you joined our little club. 100% of the mods have invested far more effort maintaining this site than you have. If you think that spending time keeping the place usable for you disqualifies us from the perqs the rest of the members enjoy, you need to replace your logic processor.


        Paul
        Ah come on...I said in passing "So far we've had one of the Moderators..." blah blah. I wasn't targeting the mod. Didn't even mention his name. I said its starting to sound like a pitch-fest for JC. That's all. And you'll note some others agree.

        Storm in a friggin teacup.

        Now let me tell you about this fabulous copy seminar I'm running next week...top of the Eiffel Tower.
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        • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
          Mal,
          And you'll note some others agree.
          And that matters to me... why?

          Here's another newsflash: Copywriters should be able to distinguish between self-interested promotions and organic buzz.

          That's kind of basic, no?


          Paul
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          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
            Banned
            Originally Posted by Paul Myers View Post

            Mal,And that matters to me... why?

            Here's another newsflash: Copywriters should be able to distinguish between self-interested promotions and organic buzz.

            That's kind of basic, no?


            Paul
            Dunno mate...I'm just a beginner at all this.
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            • Profile picture of the author Paul Myers
              Mal,
              Dunno mate...I'm just a beginner at all this.
              Prior to this thread, I wouldn't have believed that.


              Paul
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    • Profile picture of the author copyassassin
      Mal,

      You gotta admit this:

      John has positioned himself VERY well.

      And THAT's the real secret.

      In EVERY business...

      being positioned as the authority, expert, celebrity within a niche.

      The very fact this thread is getting emotion is a testament to his "guru" status.

      I think all of should takeway the need to establish and position ourselves in such a manner that elicits a strong emotional response.

      Adam


      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Anybody else want to jump on the John Carlton bandwagon? Give it a rest will you. Or better yet get the man to take out an ad. I'm sick of hearing this being beaten up. Blatant promotion. Completely over the top. He doesn't walk on water. He's just a copywriter...with a course. So far we've had one of the moderators spruiking it...one of the speakers...now you. What's next?
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I have no disillusions about Carlton walking on water, Mal. As someone whose career is just beginning, I'm interested in these types of seminars and the experiences others have had in attending them. Do I think I'll be set for life by attending one seminar? I'm a bit more realistic. But I don't find posts like this abhorrent.
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
    I agree with Ken, for what it's worth. I've been reading this board a lot, hoping to pick up tips and tricks. There's been some really great stuff posted in here in recent times.

    Sure, I'd love to go to a John Carlton seminar but I've got 101 things that need my money far more urgently. so I take the advice on here, read, spend smaller amounts on books and try to make the money so that next time, I can.

    Or maybe do something different...
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  • Maybe I can help balance this a touch.

    I haven't been to any "live" Carlton gigs - so I've never done the networking thing in the USA.

    But I have bought the courses and DVD's (as well as all the other guru's).

    Carlton is not the copywriting messiah. I doubt there is one. A good marketeer will of course try and prove that they are.

    But if you want some of the best golf or a "kill with your bare hands" self defence copy - he would be the writer to learn from.

    Or Jim Curley who took over that writing.

    Carltons training is good and can work a storm in many markets.

    Adapt it and tone it down slightly, and his techniques are very effective with any copy.

    But don't feel that his stuff is a "plug it in" in and automatically be a world famous copywriter.

    And it would be good to see more Carltonites become themselves.

    Rather than desperately trying to be him.

    They would do so much better, armed with some great copywriting material (Carltons and others)...

    And develop their own style.


    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author Pusateri
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      And it would be good to see more Carltonites become themselves.

      Rather than trying desperately to be him.
      I'm glad you said that, Steve.

      Sometimes this place feels like basic cable.

      The forum would be far more useful if there were more talk about what we've tried and learned from it, and less of "_________ says do it this way," and "I heard this from _________."

      That's no dig against any of the commonly quoted. It's just that quotes are a poor substitute for conversation.
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      • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
        Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post

        I'm glad you said that, Steve.

        Sometimes this place feels like basic cable.

        The forum would be far more useful if there were more talk about what we've tried and learned from it, and less of "_________ says do it this way," and "I heard this from _________."

        That's no dig against any of the commonly quoted. It's just that quotes are a poor substitute for conversation.
        A quote builds a conversation.

        You start with a basic idea and build on it.

        A quote from the I Ching (a bit garbled, but it makes sense)

        "Sucess in small matters. Perserverence furthers."

        Getting the gist of copy is difficult. You may be able to identify what someone is searching for and you may be able to show them what you can do in speech, but putting it down on paper for a faceless sea of people can prove a tough ask.

        But you can only get to the perfect copy through hard work. You write a page and you re-read it. Then leave it and come back to it later. Re-write it and improve it gradually.

        Nurture those little ideas that flourished on the page and strip away the needless sentiment.

        Finally, you'll have it in front of you. The copy that says one thing only: clicking on this "buy now" button will enrich your life beyond your wildest dreams.
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    @ mal

    I completely agree with you that there are better copywriters out there than JC, never said he was the best... just giving my thoughts and opinions on what he did for me.

    Last I checked, it was ok to give opinions on the board that might actually help people
    break through their comfort zone, buy a ticket, hit the seminar, and go shake some god damn hands and get in the game.

    I have no financial incentive in promoting john whatsoever... I'm not an affiliate of his, I'm far from a Carlton n*thugger.

    I personally don't care who goes and who doesn't.

    but my point on the thread was, going to seminars is a very good way to get business if you're just starting out. Meeting and shaking hands can pay off well.

    But I totally agree... there are and will continue to be better copywriters than John, hell, you may be one yourself, I don't know you.

    I learned just as much if not more from Clayton, Gary Bencivenga, Michel Fortin, etc....

    But the bigger point is, and I'm not sure if you said it Mal or if I read it elsewhere, is that people need to find their own god d*mn voice when writing copy.

    I mean, seriously, be your own person instead of just taking Carlton's (or anyone's ads) and just swiping them almost word for word.

    I've seen letters that literally look like John wrote them, but some newbie just slapped it up there and changed a few words.

    I'm all for learning from the copywriters who came before us... but jeesum, find your own voice and pave your own path instead of just regurgitating Carlton or Makepeace.

    Hell, find your own unique voice and soon you could be up there with those guys.

    But yeah, that's my only issue I see with those who follow Carlton a little too closely.
    It's such a blatant rip off, it prevents you from actually trying to become your own writer and create your own style/voice.
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

      but my point on the thread was, going to seminars is a very good way to get business if you're just starting out. Meeting and shaking hands can pay off well.
      I've lost track of the amount of business I've gotten from going to marketing seminars and networking with other attendees. It's one of the best ways to reach many clients who want copywriting help but don't actively seek it out in forums like this one.

      Joe Ditzel has an ongoing seminar calendar thread that I thought was worth mentioning here:

      http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...inar-list.html

      Hope that helps,

      Mike
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      • Profile picture of the author max5ty
        Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

        I've lost track of the amount of business I've gotten from going to marketing seminars and networking with other attendees. It's one of the best ways to reach many clients who want copywriting help but don't actively seek it out in forums like this one.

        Joe Ditzel has an ongoing seminar calendar thread that I thought was worth mentioning here:

        http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...inar-list.html

        Hope that helps,

        Mike
        Mike, this is BS and I think you know it.

        I can't think of one single client I've ever done an ad for that attended one of these so called gurus seminars.
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        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

          Mike, this is BS and I think you know it.

          I can't think of one single client I've ever done an ad for that attended one of these so called gurus seminars.
          That's your experience.

          If I hadn't gone to events like JV Alert, I would not have met marketers like Jason James, Ken McArthur, Stephen Renton, Robert Puddy, and countless others. I would not have met fellow copywriters like John Hostler, Bruce Wedding, Jay White, Ray Edwards, Vin Montello, Ross Bowring, or one of my closest copywriting friends John "Ritz" Ritzkowitz who passed away last year.

          A number of those contacts have hired me to write copy for them... have done interviews for me as part of my own paid info-products... have referred clients to me as well.

          If I hadn't gone to a Glazer-Kennedy event in 2009, I would not have met Bill Glazer... I would not have been offered a private phone consult after helping Bill find a needed "copy bull" (their phrase for a copywriting apprentice).

          In 2011, when Bill came to the Philadelphia GKIC chapter for a presentation... I asked a question (without giving my name) about newsletter retention. Bill remembered my name and that I was a professional copywriter. He then proceeded (on his own) to tell an audience of 250+ people that they should come talk to me after the presentation... which a dozen people did.

          So it's not B.S. for me... going to seminars and events where networking can be done has made me A LOT of money.

          Mike
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

            That's your experience.

            If I hadn't gone to events like JV Alert, I would not have meet marketers like Jason James, Ken McArthur, Stephen Renton, Robert Puddy, and countless others. I would not have met fellow copywriters like John Hostler, Bruce Wedding, Jay White, Ray Edwards, Vin Montello, Ross Bowring, or one of my closest copywriting friends John "Ritz" Ritzkowitz who passed away last year.

            A number of those contacts have hired me to write copy for them... have done interviews for me as part of my own paid info-products... have referred clients to me as well.

            If I hadn't gone to a Glazer-Kennedy event in 2009, I would not have met Bill Glazer... I would not have been offered a private phone consult after helping Bill find a needed "copy bull" (their phrase for a copywriting apprentice).

            In 2011, when Bill came to the Philadelphia GKIC chapter for a presentation... I asked a question (without giving my name) about newsletter retention. Bill remembered my name and that I was a professional copywriter. He then proceeded (on his own) to tell an audience of 250+ people that they should come talk to me after the presentation... which a dozen people did.

            So it's not B.S. for me... going to seminars and events where networking can be done has made me A LOT of money.

            Mike
            Let me make sure I have this right...

            You spent thousands of dollars to get some recommendations?

            Are you going to be honest and tell me those you met are the meat of your career now?

            Are they paying you to be what you are?
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            • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
              Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              Let me make sure I have this right...

              You spent thousands of dollars to get some recommendations?
              I'm not sure I understand your question.

              Bill offering an unsolicited recommendation during his presentation was an unexpected bonus. When Bill was part of GKIC, I was on a short list of outside copywriters that were given referrals for GKIC members who wanted Kennedy-style marketing written but couldn't afford Kennedy-style fees.

              It became possible because I met him in person and made a positive impression on him.

              Yes, I've spent thousands of dollars to attend multiple live events to expand my knowledge, gain copywriting clients, and add new business allies. But I've recouped my investment with new copywriting clients, JVs, and new business allies that have referred more business to me.

              Are you going to be honest and tell me those you met are the meat of your career now?
              The people I mentioned are some of the ones I've met in person and go on to do business with.

              They are not the "meat of my career" because I learned many years ago that relying on only one way to get clients is the business version of Russian Roulette.

              Networking is only one way I attract new copywriting prospects. I also use (or have used) blogging, PPC, email marketing, direct mail, referrals, and more. I recently added my own Kindle book to my client attraction arsenal as well.

              Are they paying you to be what you are?
              Nope. My clients pay me for my expertise and for my professional help.
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              • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
                Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

                I'm not sure I understand your question.

                Bill offering an unsolicited recommendation during his presentation was an unexpected bonus. When Bill was part of GKIC, I was on a short list of outside copywriters that were given referrals for GKIC members who wanted Kennedy-style marketing written but couldn't afford Kennedy-style fees.

                It became possible because I met him in person and made a positive impression on him.

                Yes, I've spent thousands of dollars to attend multiple live events to expand my knowledge, gain copywriting clients, and add new business allies. But I've recouped my investment with new copywriting clients, JVs, and new business allies that have referred more business to me.



                The people I mentioned are some of the ones I've met in person and go on to do business with.

                They are not the "meat of my career" because I learned many years ago that relying on only one way to get clients is the business version of Russian Roulette.

                Networking is only one way I attract new copywriting prospects. I also use (or have used) blogging, PPC, email marketing, direct mail, referrals, and more. I recently added my own Kindle book to my client attraction arsenal as well.



                Nope. My clients pay me for my expertise and for my professional help.
                I'm with Mike Humphreys on this one, at least in my personal experience.

                I've been to 3, maybe 4 marketing/copy seminars as an attendee over the last 13 years.

                Out of those, I've landed many one-time copy gigs and 2 clients that gave me over a year's worth of work each. And it wasn't cheap for them either.

                So, I invested maybe (?) $10,000 to go to them and received well over
                $180,000 in copy fees.

                Not a bad ROI, I'll take that.

                BUT... I'm also sure a lot of it has to do with WHAT you do at these
                seminars.

                Heck, I was just friendly, laid-back, shook hands, talked to people, made
                friends, joked around, and had fun.

                If I had kept to myself, rolled up in a fetal position in the corner
                of the room, I'm sure I wouldn't have gotten anything.

                Or if i had stayed up in my hotel room renting films on TV.... well, I'll stop there.

                But yeah, it all has to do with HOW you are at the seminars. People do business with those they know/like and have a relationship with.

                If you show up with the pure intentions of just trying to sell yourself,
                push yourself on people, and wear a T-Shirt with your domain name
                on it, maybe you'll strike out.

                So just because someone calls out Mike saying his experience isn't
                true is absolute BS. Maybe that person just has a repellent personality
                where no one wants to do business with you?

                But seminars is just one spoke in the wheel of getting work.

                If done right, it works.

                If you've been online for any length of time, do you think it's
                a coincidence that Kern, Pagan, Burchard, and other members of
                a certain "group" are attending each others seminars for sh*ts and
                giggles.

                Nope, they each make each other a boatload of money. Scratch
                your back and I'll scratch mine, it's just how business works a lot
                of the time.

                WHO you know often will get you further ahead than WHAT you
                know.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    This is why we can never have anything nice...

    I HATE YOU ALL!!!!!

    <stomps off to her room>
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    What I see is some great debate - instead of the usual boring crap - like "How did you start in copywriting?". Yawn.

    John Carlton is a protegé of Gary Halbert. And GH loved attacking sacred cows. Wish I'd met the man. All I was saying was I'm sick of hearing about this that and the other seminar (of Carlton's).

    Some of you are like Pavlov's dogs. Ring the bell and away you go.

    Oh...and when the Headmaster (yes you Paul) appears we're supposed to roll over and and say "Sorry Sir...won't happen again". What a crock. Debate is what keeps this forum alive. You say it's irrelevant who has agreed with me. I say "Not at all". Unless you want a "forum" where all the lap-dogs agree with the "dominant paradigm".

    As for the personal slagging - go for it. I could care less. I have no axe to grind. I don't depend on this or any other forum for my livelihood. I don't need to pay homage to "those that have gone before". What for? If some kid is killing it with his copy - great. I'm all for it. I'll be his fan.

    It's pathetic how these things pan out. The thread gets heated. So what? You a big boy and girl? If you're not you shouldn't be in this game.

    Why do you have to come in with your "big stick" Paul? We can sort it out ourselves. We always have. All this BS about "others have been here for 10 years before I came on the scene". Who cares? So what?

    Finally...I'm not someone that posts things just for a reaction. I have some history here. And I have written a couple of pieces of copy that have rocked. And Yes I've "contributed". Look at my "Thanks" for starters.

    I'm seriously thinking of doing an "Andrews". But a finite "Andrews". As in "I have better things to do and I won't be back" (collective call of "Thank Christ").

    If you can't see the value in my input...bad luck. I know what I've done - and more importantly...so do my clients.

    Ah to hell with it.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post


      As for the personal slagging - go for for it.
      Typo alert!

      Sorry, couldn't resist. Shocking! Shocking I tell you lol.

      Pay attention Mal to what you're saying for Pete's sake!

      Whatever next, I don't know, what are we going to do with you eh?

      Actually, you do have a point. Yes Paul, I know, I know...

      I know you'll disagree with Mal on this but in this instance he is actually correct. Not that you welcome this kind of remark at all. I should know from past experience. Just take it on the chin like the rest of us have to. A friendly piece of advice. No harm intended or meant.

      This forum, it has gone downhill. It is dreadfully boring on the whole these days. Fair enough, I'm not advocating we all go back to how it was here back in 2009 but you got to admit back then the forum certainly was a mite more interesting and dare I say it, highly entertaining too. These days by comparison, it's like a dry fart in a desert this place.

      Much as Mal and myself today cannot stand each others guts, unlike the days of old (when we did actually get along with one another) he's right in saying 'we're all big boys and girls' in this section of the forum.

      Sure there do need to be rules but copywriters by their nature are a fairly outspoken lot and I'm sure most of us can take a little bit of heat from time to time.

      If we can't take the heat, well, perhaps these 'boys and girls' shouldn't be in this industry in the first place? It is what it is, a cut throat industry to work in. Can't take it, the heat? Doors over there.

      I mean come on, let's get some 'fire' back into this forum! At this rate every newbie and their ilk will be taking over this place handing out the worst advice possible. Surely the intent is to improve the learning experience for everyone here, not pouring cold water treating everyone like they're in kid gloves attending kindergarten.

      Fair enough point?

      Seriously, if it stays like this, as boring as watching paint dry, then you might as well just amalgamate this sub forum into the Main Internet Forum, one thing is for sure though, if you do decide to do this, it'll certainly liven that place up a tad.

      Bottoms up!


      Mark Andrews
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  • Profile picture of the author BudaBrit
    Mal (not sure if we're on first name terms yet, Mr. Andrews would kill me ),

    There's a difference between a debate on means and techniques, and an argument on whether we should all take notice of Carlton (or anyone else for that matter) or not.

    I may not be any good at copy, yet, but I'm a damn sight better than when I first stumbled into here, mistaking it for a content den like so many others, just to be shouted at. And it's all thanks to you guys.

    All of you.

    I've learned (except it seems, that word. I always lapse back to learnt, can't get it out of my system, color is fine, learnt...) so much, taken in so much and missed the point of so much more.

    This is vibrant. It's always going to be more than the IM room or any content room that would exist. Because you guys care about your craft. There's passion in there for all those hooks, bullets, headlines and PS's. Just being part of that is great, and it'd be sad if any of you left.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Mark Andrews,

    With all due respect to this forum I sometimes think you show very little respect to the forum at large because you take a lot of things personally. Also, I used to enjoy reading your posts when there was something I could learn from you, but in the past year it seems almost every time you post there is a motive behind the post to benefit you or belittle other members' threads.

    Not saying that is the way it is, but to come into any thread and the first thing you do is report a member and then give him a reach around.

    ^_____^ Was it personal?

    Jeffery 100% :-)
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    Entrepreneurs starting out and small businesses without giant staffs and budgets.

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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    Interesting thread.

    It looks like the washing machine is busted again, judging from all the dirty laundry on the line. Never a dull moment, though.

    Coming back to the original post, thanks to Shawn and Mike H. for their comments. They've made some great observations about the importance of learning and networking.

    For everyone else: Go. Don't go. Whatever works for you.

    It might be seen as an opportunity, or it might be seen as a shameless attempt to separate you from your money.

    The reality is, it's what you make of it.

    Guess that about sums it up.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
    I was watching this programme the other day about Behaviour Management.

    It's all about kids who have behavioural problems.

    When these kids don't get enough attention they start to kick up a fuss and run riot.

    Sure enough their parents come running to them, totally unaware and give them all the attention they want.

    The behaviour management specialist of course can see right through the games.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Marketeer
    Shawn, great post dude!

    It's great to hear about people's personal experiences after using a product or visiting a seminar.

    If you personally benefited from it then that's great. I'm sure there are others that would be interested in hearing reviews.

    There's no greater compliment than an un-solicited testimonial. All credit where it's due.

    Yes Halbert was a master at copywriting. He had his share of recognition.

    John Carlton has also contributed a lot to the world and deserves his share of recognition.
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanIM
    I feel the need for more cowbell...I mean bullets.

    I'd be fun to see all of you copy faukers resort to word battles with bullets and johnson boxes... Visually, that's just fun to imagine. ;-)

    I have to admit this is interesting to watch you guys go back & forth a bit, a la "my dog is bigger than yours" style. aka my guru is better than yours...

    Love the fight and passion, I bet a few of you that are really mixing it up here do some good work. Stoke that fire, bring on the opinions...save us newbies.

    Anywhooo... I dig Frosty and his work, his style, etc... Respect.

    I've seen some of his stuff and I'm certain he's helped people in this game of copy and business. But at the end of the day, to me, it doesn't matter who is teaching...it matters if the sponge (me) can absorb the information and then produce/replicate results.

    Skill transfer and results...

    Skill transfer and results...

    IMHO, I don't care if you're a 6 month old self-proclaimed copy god...if you can knowledge and skill transfer... and your sponge-ee can produce rocking results...high five Mano!
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    More cowbell...now that was a classic. There's something to be said for participating with enthusiasm!

    More Cowbell Snl Full Skit - Video
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    • Profile picture of the author SeanIM
      Oh yessss....love that skit. Esp when Will is tapping on that bell all close to that dude's ear...

      2 thumbsup

      Originally Posted by Steve Hill View Post

      More cowbell...now that was a classic. There's something to be said for participating with enthusiasm!

      More Cowbell Snl Full Skit - Video
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
      Originally Posted by Steve Hill View Post

      More cowbell...now that was a classic. There's something to be said for participating with enthusiasm!

      More Cowbell Snl Full Skit - Video
      Steve - is that a permit you're holding up in that avatar?
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
        Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

        Steve - is that a permit you're holding up in that avatar?
        No, it's a jack crevalle from Costa Rica... lots of fun to catch (and release). I'll take inshore fishing for jacks, amberjack, cubera snapper, and roosterfish over offshore for sailfish, marlin, dorado, and yellowfin any day... although the dorado and yellowfin are really good on the table.
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        • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
          Originally Posted by Steve Hill View Post

          No, it's a jack crevalle from Costa Rica... lots of fun to catch (and release). I'll take inshore fishing for jacks, amberjack, cubera snapper, and roosterfish over offshore for sailfish, marlin, dorado, and yellowfin any day... although the dorado and yellowfin are really good on the table.
          My son's first trip offshore in our new boat, we'd just cleared the jetties and weren't 1/4 mile out when I saw lots of bait breaking the surface. I figured, what the hell, and we put out a few lines, trolling cigar minnows.

          In about 15 seconds, we both had a jack on. Those suckers fight like they're 10X bigger than they really are. After we landed them, my son was grinning from ear to ear and was forever hooked on offshore fishing.

          It sounds like you fish the Pacific. I'm in the Texas Gulf of Mexico so we've got to go WAY out for dolphin, snapper and AJs.

          Out of Galveston, the nearest AJ is 60 miles. Totally different kind of fight. No hard runs, just feels like you're reeling a car up off the bottom. Last trip out, my son had the butt of the rod on the side of the boat, pole bent 90 degrees and literally could not crank the reel with all his might. When we finally got it up, it was a 68lb AJ.

          Best eating is a grouper though.
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  • Profile picture of the author BigGameHunter
    WOW... how did this thread go so off point so fast?

    I came to the thread looking for a copy writer, a team member that can help on my projects.

    Turns out I found a bunch of children. It started out as an information thread about an upcoming seminar for John Carlton. Then some fools spun it on it's head, injected Hatred for John Carlton and turned it into a... Who's The Best Copy writer.

    Sounds like my kids debating over who the best singer was on American Idol.

    Hell, all those kids can sing better than me. Anyone of them could teach me more than I know at the moment no matter what the judges opinions are. At the moment I couldn't carry a tune if it had handles.

    If were going to go through the foolish exercise why not have a contest on who's the best judge on Idol? Or who the best American football player is at the moment. Or who the best NASCAR driver is. But instead it turned into a contest of ...who is the best Copy Writer of all time.

    Who cares who the best is. I learn from everyone. I even learn from those who know less than I do about a subject. My young adult children teach me what not to do everyday

    Isn't it funny how one day were the student, and as we apply our craft we slowly begin teaching the teachers and this magical transformation takes place...we become the teacher to those who know less than we do. WOW... what an original insight. Personally, I think John Carlton has earned this right and I believe I could learn from him. Personally, it is good to know he had the late great Gary Halbert as his mentor. It must be my lucky day.

    I'm 56 yrs old, and I just learned a lot about copy writers on this thread. What a Damn Shame...same handful of haters as in all other professions.

    Personally, I want to know about upcoming events like John Carlton's. Keep posting these threads even if some are looking for a reason to do nothing else with their time but... HATE.

    Mike Humphreys... Personally, I would have appreciated the recommendation by Dan Kennedy, had I been in the crowd. My purpose for being there besides learning from the speaker is networking. Getting to rub shoulders with the players in the market. So what, you spent some money to attend and you derived a benefit. You obviously earned it.

    This is my lucky day. I learned a lot just now... Whoo Hoo!

    Respectfully,

    Jim
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    It's interesting how many writers really like fishing. Maybe it's the man against nature thing (a la Hemingway), or just the chance to get out and watch the timeless rhythms of the natural world, far away from ringing phones, blaring televisions, and noisy traffic.

    There's a serenity out there, along with amazing life, sudden death, and everything in between. Nature can be a cruel mistress, but a fascinating one.

    Those jacks are tenacious bulldogs for sure, and amberjacks are amazingly strong too. Big toothy cubera snappers can practically pull a grown man right out of the boat - I've seen brawny men pinned in the corner, struggling to get one away from the rocks before it cut them off. A drift over a reef, a hit, and wham - slammed into the corner.

    I was reading a book recently about scuba divers in the Gulf of Mexico among the blue-water Gulf Stream oil rigs. They used to get some huge groupers there, in the hundreds of pounds, along with giant log barracuda and big yellowfin tuna.

    Apparently, spearfishing for those big fish was pretty risky - there was a good chance they'd end up bouncing through the barnacled rig like a human pinball as those big fish took off. Those sharp barnacles would cut a man like razors, attracting hungry sharks. Sometimes the divers would run out of air or get tangled, with predictable results.

    While this posting is seemingly off-topic from the original post, I'll come full circle. While at the Carlton-Dahl action seminar (which was great, btw), I had some good discussions with the Halbert brothers about fishing, among other things. Their dad Gary was another one of those writers with a zest for living life to its fullest, whether that was charging waterspouts in the boat or some other wild adventure.

    And that's just the way it should be. Life is short, and it can be an E-ticket ride or boring safe little drab existence, our choice.
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    • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
      Originally Posted by Steve Hill View Post

      While this posting is seemingly off-topic from the original post, I'll come full circle.
      I was trying to throw a little cold salt water on this warm thread.

      Offshore fishing is one of my true loves though. There's something about sitting in a fiberglass tub 75 miles from anything. The iridium blue sea surrounding you. It's an amazing pleasure. I just wish gas wasn't $3.50/gallon.

      I don't care who you are, $500 to go fishing ain't cheap.
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

    Offshore fishing is one of my true loves though. There's something about sitting in a fiberglass tub 75 miles from anything. The iridium blue sea surrounding you. It's an amazing pleasure. I just wish gas wasn't $3.50/gallon.

    I don't care who you are, $500 to go fishing ain't cheap.
    I hear ya! That crystal-clear purple/blue Gulf Stream deep water is something else, isn't it? It's amazing, but yes, it's a long ride offshore sometimes.

    For those not familiar with it, the Gulf Stream is like a flowing river in the ocean. It has distinct edges from the colder dirty water on either side, but inside that channel it's warmer water, exotic fish, and really clear water. Fish use it like a highway, following it as it winds and undulates on its journey. It's one of those big natural things that few take the time to understand.

    West Coast fishing is a bit better in terms of distance - in Mexico and southward, you can find some excellent fishing with a little dinky panga and a few gallons of gas.

    There are some islands in Mexico fished by long range boats from San Diego, and they have a lot of big resident white sharks. By big I mean 10 feet to sometimes 15 feet or so. They'll swim right under the anchored boat, eyeing you, and happily eat your 100 pound tuna off the line, leaving you with a nice fish head. Gee thanks, mister shark.

    Even in Mexico we don't usually get that brilliant purple/blue water without going 60 miles out or so, though. Down by Panama, it's not bad, maybe 10 miles out and full of feisty sailfish and marlin.

    Feels like time to go fishing again!
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  • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
    How much is the going rate for fresh Blue Marlin there in the states now anyhow? I moved to the Philippines over a year ago and I can buy Marlin for about $3.50 a pound, fresh. In fact, I never had blue marlin my whole life until I moved here (originally from Oklahoma.)
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    • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
      Originally Posted by Joan Altz View Post

      How much is the going rate for fresh Blue Marlin there in the states now anyhow? I moved to the Philippines over a year ago and I can buy Marlin for about $3.50 a pound, fresh. In fact, I never had blue marlin my whole life until I moved here (originally from Oklahoma.)
      Actually, I'm not sure Joan. I don't kill billfish and it's not commonly for sale here. Red snapper, one of our favorites, is expensive, though the price varies from $10-25/lb.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
      Originally Posted by Joan Altz View Post

      How much is the going rate for fresh Blue Marlin there in the states now anyhow? I moved to the Philippines over a year ago and I can buy Marlin for about $3.50 a pound, fresh. In fact, I never had blue marlin my whole life until I moved here (originally from Oklahoma.)
      Bruce is right - it's not found in US markets often, and most fishermen release them. They're not that great on the table, and market imports are highly regulated.

      The sad reality is that marlin are under heavy constant pressure from international longline fleets. I've followed an offshore longline for miles, and have seen firsthand the indiscriminate bycatch waste. The target may be the prolific mahi-mahi, but all kinds of other fish and animals get caught too, only to be thrown away. In some areas, the local fishing fleet will destroy any longlines they can find because of this.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Joan Altz View Post

      How much is the going rate for fresh Blue Marlin there in the states now anyhow? I moved to the Philippines over a year ago and I can buy Marlin for about $3.50 a pound, fresh. In fact, I never had blue marlin my whole life until I moved here (originally from Oklahoma.)
      If you've ever seen a marlin dying on the deck you might think twice about eating them. They are the most beautiful of fishes - with iridescent blue/green skin that fades to grey when they die. Marlin are also the fastest fish in the sea - they can hit 68 MPH. Giant squid are faster - but only in reverse and only for short bursts. Marlin can live up to their late twenties - roaming from one side of the ocean to the other. I've eaten marlin and found it quite tasteless - not a patch on yellowfin tuna, for instance. Oh yeah - blue marlin are also on the endangered species list.

      I'm haunted by the site of a striped marlin lying on the deck of my boat staring at me with its huge eye as one of my fishing buddies drove a spike into its brain and both sides of its head. And then buckets of dark red blood poured out onto the teak deck. It was like witnessing a murder. And I had blood on my hands. After that we always tagged and released. The rare times we landed one. Magnificent site seeing a marlin stand on its tail and spit the lure back at you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Ling (cobia) are awesome eating and great fighters. What's fun is that they are very curious and will come right up to the boat. This one was 3' away when I hooked him but that led to a 45 minute fight:



        King Mackerel and not as good to eat but are great smoked or used to make a fish spread with cream cheese. They call 'em "smokers" because of the way they hit and run; your reel will be smoking.

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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    Bruce,

    Did you happen to catch Shark Tank last night? (3/29)

    The first idea pitched was 2 dudes trying to create an entire new fish
    market in the US... by hunting and serving up lion fish... those funny-looking,
    spiked, yet beautiful looking fish you see in home aquariums!

    these guys are literally creating a business where they hire spear fisherman
    to go out and spear lion fish in the Caribbean and they then sell it as a new
    fish you can eat.

    Their spin is "it's ecologically friendly since these lion fish are becoming too invasive since they have no natural predators. So they want people to buy them and eat them, after they spear them one by one!

    Was curious if you saw that?
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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

      Bruce,

      Did you happen to catch Shark Tank last night? (3/29)

      The first idea pitched was 2 dudes trying to create an entire new fish
      market in the US... by hunting and serving up lion fish... those funny-looking,
      spiked, yet beautiful looking fish you see in home aquariums!

      these guys are literally creating a business where they hire spear fisherman
      to go out and spear lion fish in the Caribbean and they then sell it as a new
      fish you can eat.

      Their spin is "it's ecologically friendly since these lion fish are becoming too invasive since they have no natural predators. So they want people to buy them and eat them, after they spear them one by one!

      Was curious if you saw that?
      I didn't catch it but ABC has most of their shows' episodes (current season at least) available to watch on their site for free. So here's a link to last night's Shark Tank:

      Shark Tank Season 4 Episode 20 | Full TV Episode Online - ABC.com

      Hope that helps,

      Mike
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    • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
      Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

      Bruce,

      Did you happen to catch Shark Tank last night? (3/29)

      The first idea pitched was 2 dudes trying to create an entire new fish
      market in the US... by hunting and serving up lion fish... those funny-looking,
      spiked, yet beautiful looking fish you see in home aquariums!

      these guys are literally creating a business where they hire spear fisherman
      to go out and spear lion fish in the Caribbean and they then sell it as a new
      fish you can eat.

      Their spin is "it's ecologically friendly since these lion fish are becoming too invasive since they have no natural predators. So they want people to buy them and eat them, after they spear them one by one!

      Was curious if you saw that?
      There is a potential problem with eating lionfish, and that's the possibility of getting nasty ciguatera poisoning from them (and many apex predatory fish like amberjack can have the neurotoxin too). It seems to be locale-specific.

      Ciguatera poisoning can take months to get over.

      More info can be found here:

      Elsevier

      and here:

      Eat lionfish? Sure, but beware of the nasty toxins - Vitals

      Too bad, because those lionfish are invading massive areas, and few (if any) predators eat them because of their poisonous spines.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Thanks Mike and Shawn because I missed it. I was editing a video till 3am. No TV for me lately.

    Shawn, sounds like an interesting idea. But those fish don't look very appetizing
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  • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
    As long as we're on the subject of exotic fish, this spectacular and unusual opah was caught on the Royal Star by Greg VandenOrden on a 2011 long range trip about 140 miles offshore. It was a good trip, with lots of bluefin and yellowfin tuna. I watched Greg land this fish after a heck of a fight.

    The opah are very thin but broad, and dive to great depths. I would have released it myself, but they are also excellent eating.

    More details here too: Rare opah catch made during tuna bite aboard Royal Star - Pete Thomas Outdoors

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