Do you do what Ben Settle says?

62 replies
I've been reading Ben Settle's blog lately and really enjoy his writing style.

One thing he advocates is writing to your list every day.

I know that many other copywriters and marketers would see that as taboo. That you're going to tick off your list.

In his writing he acknowledges that there are many detractors, that he doesn't care, and that he's going to keep doing it his way. He alludes to certain companies he works with that have success with the daily model. I like that.

I'm curious, though, to hear if there are other case studies? Have any of you done this or can you point to a specific company whose list I can get on that is doing this? Have you done this and abandoned it?

I'm considering trying this with my list. I've got a big list in the dog training niche and am wondering how I would do it? From what recesses of my brain do I uncover that much content? How do I pitch every day and not get them annoyed?

I'd love to hear your thoughts.
#ben #settle
  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Have you signed up for Ben's training yet?

    Seems pretty clear he's earned your business - and you might just get the answers you seek from the guy that inspired you to ask.

    I think Ben's great, but I'm a little biased.

    Best,

    Brian
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      In my experience once a day is the minimum.

      When I create a new promotion, I send out two emails each day.

      Remember: a prospect who wants to read your stuff loves getting your emails. Those who don't, won't buy anyway, so who cares if they unsubscribe?

      Alex
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      • Profile picture of the author TyBrown
        Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

        In my experience once a day is the minimum.

        When I create a new promotion, I send out two emails each day.

        Remember: a prospect who wants to read your stuff loves getting your emails. Those who don't, won't buy anyway, so who cares if they unsubscribe?

        Alex
        My fear is that the daily mailing would take those who may be buyers and pester them to where they won't buy.

        You mention that you mail daily. How do you format daily content? Is it a thought of the day? A pitch? A blog post? What's been the most successful for you?
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        • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
          Originally Posted by TyBrown View Post

          What's been the most successful for you?
          A sequence designed to build trust. It's a mix of content, polarity, engagement, emotion stirring, and launch.

          Sorry I can't reveal more here on the forum, because I consider the sequence proprietary. For client eyes only.

          Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author TyBrown
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      Have you signed up for Ben's training yet?

      Seems pretty clear he's earned your business - and you might just get the answers you seek from the guy that inspired you to ask.

      I think Ben's great, but I'm a little biased.

      Best,

      Brian
      Yes, he has earned my business. Just bought a Kennedy product to help me tighten up some sales processes and then I'll be getting Settle's course.

      I wasn't asking about what Ben Settle does, though. I was asking if any of you had the same philosophy and practice and how it worked out for you.

      I'm aware that the standard answer here is 'check google/buy the product/hit the search tab' but I was looking to open a dialog of daily mailing vs. less regular mailing.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    daily emails is one thing, when i mail more often, i typically make more money and I think he's right on that... but for me, i dont dig his style for just one reason: no proof or anything to back up claims... to me is weak and lacks credibility.

    its like an investment advisor trying to get you to invest but has zero track record of results to show you.... would you invest your money with them? (I think not).

    for me, proof trumps everything else. Without it, you're hosed.

    ben pitches in his emails, but unlike many, he tends to make it lighter and tied into the email which is cool (and non douchey)... def. something to learn and someone to learn from, but remember there's no "one right way"... there's more than 1 way to skin a cat.

    his shtick works for him, he's got a good biz... kudos to him for finding his 'thing'...
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      daily emails is one thing, when i mail more often, i typically make more money and I think he's right on that... but for me, i dont dig his style for just one reason: no proof or anything to back up claims... to me is weak and lacks credibility.

      its like an investment advisor trying to get you to invest but has zero track record of results to show you.... would you invest your money with them? (I think not).

      for me, proof trumps everything else. Without it, you're hosed.
      Positioning can trump proof.

      Years ago, when I was a new business broker and had no results to claim, I found that approximately half of the sellers who contacted me to list their businesses didn't ask anything about my experience.

      Proof has to do with believability. As desirable as it is to have, fact is, there are numerous other ways to create believability when you don't have proof.

      Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post


      for me, proof trumps everything else. Without it, you're hosed.
      Not really. Powerful positioning can do away with the need for proof. I'm proof of that. LOL. (just joking)

      People believe what they want to believe. Sad, but true. Which is why MLMs like Empower Network do so well - they're all drinking the Kool-Aid.

      BTW...you keep bringing up Kern. He's a master at branding and positioning. His old persona...his old schtick...seemed to be based on "The Dude" character from "The Big Lebowski" - Californian stoner surfer dude. The "Underachiever" - all that. Worked very well for him. God knows why he's gone the other way. He looks like a spivvy used-car salesman now (sorry Frank). The trendy hair-cut, the suit, the model accessory wife (he's gonna kill me for that crack).

      But really...you guys are hitting each other with infractions over nothing. Positioning and proof each play their part. Now shake hands and have a beer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Daily emails usually means that YOU, your beliefs, personality, philosophy
    become central to your marketing campaign. So for example, if I were
    to send out daily emails about copywriting, this would over-saturate
    my subscribers. But if I included life lessons, anecdotes, general life
    philosophies then I would be able to keep attention and build a
    "following".

    Most of the marketers who people rave about include a lot of their
    life and personality into their marketing. If you are prepared to
    make yourself a big part of your messaging, then daily emails
    will fit your model perfectly.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author TyBrown
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      Daily emails usually means that YOU, your beliefs, personality, philosophy
      become central to your marketing campaign. So for example, if I was
      to send out daily emails about copywriting, this would over-saturate
      my subscribers. But if I included life lessons, anecdotes, general life
      philosophies then I would be able to keep attention and build a
      "following".

      Most of the marketers who people rave about include a lot of their
      life and personality into their marketing. If you are prepared to
      make yourself a big part of your messaging, then daily emails
      will fit your model perfectly.

      -Ray Edwards

      This was really helpful. I've been thinking for some time now that part of the reason I'm not making as many sales as I could be is that I'm not including enough of me into the sales process.

      I'm still not sure how to write about myself so much, but your comment was helpful in making me understand that I need to go that route.

      Thanks,
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      • Profile picture of the author Raydal
        Originally Posted by TyBrown View Post

        This was really helpful. I've been thinking for some time now that part of the reason I'm not making as many sales as I could be is that I'm not including enough of me into the sales process.

        I'm still not sure how to write about myself so much, but your comment was helpful in making me understand that I need to go that route.

        Thanks,
        Let me jump in by saying that this is not what I practice but what
        I know works. My life is too boring to excite anyone.

        I have 5 children and 1 wife who I'm faithful to. I don't drink,
        smoke, go to the movies, party, plus I go to church and I'm
        a vegetarian, believe in the Bible ... so you see, not a very "exciting" life.

        -Ray Edwards
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        • Profile picture of the author TyBrown
          Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

          Let me jump in by saying that this is not what I practice but what
          I know works. My life is too boring to excite anyone.

          I have 5 children and 1 wife who I'm faithful to. I don't drink,
          smoke, go to the movies, party, plus I go to church and I'm
          a vegetarian, believe in the Bible ... so you see, not a very "exciting" life.

          -Ray Edwards
          Ha, sounds like my church-going self, father of 4 girls, who doesn't drink or smoke. I do eat meat, though. I'll have to base my copy on that
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    • Profile picture of the author writesuccess
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      Daily emails usually means that YOU, your beliefs, personality, philosophy
      become central to your marketing campaign. So for example, if I were
      to send out daily emails about copywriting, this would over-saturate
      my subscribers. But if I included life lessons, anecdotes, general life
      philosophies then I would be able to keep attention and build a
      "following".

      Most of the marketers who people rave about include a lot of their
      life and personality into their marketing. If you are prepared to
      make yourself a big part of your messaging, then daily emails
      will fit your model perfectly.

      -Ray Edwards
      This is great advice. I too struggle with doing daily email. I usually only email my list 2 or 3 times a week with not much about me personally. I did once try daily emails for 30 days and it had incredible results. But I wasn't sure how to keep it up.

      Now I'll look at it again. Thanks.
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  • I think the key thing is content rather than quantity...as in how many times you contact them.

    Ben's emails are edgy, entertaining and informative.

    I think entertaining is the key ingredient.

    he also tries to be contraversial.

    he is never boring...but so many marketers are.

    If you had a really entertaining, interesting friend that called you once a day would u mind?

    of course not.

    If you had some one that told u some boring facts etc. what would that be like?

    Look how popular USA's got talent and all that crap is.

    this should give u a clue.

    Look at the headlines in any popular newspaper and it will give u ideas as to what people like to read...
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  • Profile picture of the author Pusateri
    There's some kind of magic that happens whenever I mail my list three or more times per week.

    Whatever I'm currently promoting will sell well, as expected, but I also start selling things I was promoting weeks or months ago. Many of those sales will be on days when I don't mail.

    3+ contacts per week and I'm in their heads. Fewer than three and they forget about me.

    Radio guys will tell you all about the importance of a three frequency.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    alex.... sorry dude... i dont buy that line for a second.

    proof trumps everything.

    he's got no proof... why the **** should i listen?

    if what you're doing works, you WANT to show people proof.

    would you have believed kern if he didnt do $23 mill in launches?

    or halbert or carlton without knowing the results of their copy?

    or... would you invest your money with a broker who talks a good game but has no proof of results?

    I'd love to hear you weasel your way outta that answer :-)
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    • one obvious way around solid proof is simply by association.

      get Frank kern or Eban Pagan to jump in a video with you and you have instant credibility.

      This type of positioning beats a screen shot or video proof any day of the week.

      And Ironically enough, i doubt people look for John's latest results when hiring him.

      his positioning in the market does the talking for him.
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      "Peter Brennan is the real deal, In the first 12 hours we did $80k...and over $125k in the first week...if you want to be successful online, outsource your copywriting to Peter"
      Adam Linkenauger

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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      alex.... sorry dude... i dont buy that line for a second.

      proof trumps everything.

      he's got no proof... why the **** should i listen?

      if what you're doing works, you WANT to show people proof.

      would you have believed kern if he didnt do $23 mill in launches?

      or halbert or carlton without knowing the results of their copy?

      or... would you invest your money with a broker who talks a good game but has no proof of results?

      I'd love to hear you weasel your way outta that answer :-)
      Let me make it simple...

      A significant percentage of people don't need proof to believe.

      They will believe if you use other persuasion techniques.

      Got it?

      Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      proof trumps everything.
      Agreed. Proof is king. Learned that from Bencivenga. Proof is so powerful because it's so rare. Most marketers don't have a lot of proof because...that would require actually being able to deliver on their bullshit claims. Hence, it's a rare and mysterious animal in the marketing world.

      And in a sense, when you do have very strong proof, you really don't need much of the other elements of pursuasion because proof itself is a pursuasion element. Having said that, the other "proof elements" only become stronger when accompanied by very strong proof, which is why you won't see too many "proof only" type sales pages.

      Although a close example would be Pat over at smartpassiveincome.com. The guy makes a small fortune and really only uses proof (in the form of income reports.) He does use social proof though, but he's a great example of a guy who hates "selling," hates most sales pages and typical "pursuasion type" stuff because he thinks most of it is cheesy. He prefers proof and building real relationships.
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  • Profile picture of the author ReferralCandy
    I don't think there are any general rules we can use here that apply universally. You have to pay careful attention to your list. What are you selling? What sort of people are on your list? How much do they love what you have to say?

    With regards to proof- again, it depends on your target demographic. If you're selling something to a very scientific-minded group, they're going to demand evidence, and they'll love you if you give it to them.

    Every situation is different! My favourite heuristic is Seth Godin's "If you stop, will you be missed?"

    -v
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  • Profile picture of the author DavidG
    I bet 95% of all threads in this sub would end with "It Depends"
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    • Profile picture of the author ReferralCandy
      Originally Posted by DavidG View Post

      I bet 95% of all threads in this sub would end with "It Depends"
      Well, maybe, maybe not.

      It depends.

      -v
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    Banned
    Better email marketer...

    Ben Settle vs. Andre Chaperon?

    Two completely different approaches, that's for sure.
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    • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
      Originally Posted by Dayne Dylan View Post

      Better email marketer...

      Ben Settle vs. Andre Chaperon?

      Two completely different approaches, that's for sure.

      Take the best bits from both

      Which is actually pretty much the same thing.. write quality entertaining emails.
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    • Profile picture of the author Wiggy0618
      I'm sorry, but this whole "proof vs persuasion" argument that's going on is beyond retarded.

      You can have total persuasion without proof and it sometimes works. You can have total proof without persuasion and it sometimes works. Persuasion without proof can be perceived as slimeball and hype. On the flip side, "proof" on the intrawebz can be (and is) faked all day long.

      The smart marketer uses proof and persuasion intertwined to bolster the other.

      Use proof as part of your persuasion and persuasion in order to obtain your proof.

      It's not really THAT hard to figure out.

      (Yes, I know nobody knows who I am, I'm a "nobody" to everyone here and all that. I don't care. Use a little bit of common sense...jeez.)

      Originally Posted by Dayne Dylan View Post

      Better email marketer...

      Ben Settle vs. Andre Chaperon?

      Two completely different approaches, that's for sure.
      The two do overlap a bit, but I'm assuming you're talking about daily emails with a pitch which are wholly self-contained (even if they occasionally mention something coming up in a future email) vs a sequence of emails, containing different loops, and only certain instances pitch (Andre's SOS).

      My experience:

      I tried SOS with cold (i.e. - new to my list) traffic and it didn't do very well. Unless you're ONE HELL of a copywriter, it's tough to build that sort of tension, drama, or have the ability to end on such a strong cliffhanger that somebody HAS to come back the next day when they don't know you.

      At the same time, if someone *does* miss an email (for whatever reason), the whole sequence is screwed.

      Andre likes to mention a TV show like Lost or 24, where it captivates you and makes you want to tune in week to week.

      There most definitely is something to this. However, if you watch the first episode, then miss the 2nd or possibly even 3rd, by the time you come back to the 4th, it's gonna be tough to get back on the bandwagon, know what's going on, and get roped in again.

      Also (and just take this FWIW), take a look at shows that are heavily dependent on long-running storylines like this. Many are laden with name actors (e.g. - Keifer Sutherland in 24), so there is already an element of investment from many viewers, as they're fans. The viewers are also already partial to actors in the show, so they're likely be more easily drawn in.

      Lost had a few people that were somewhat known, but an uber-successful show with that sort of long-running storyline that doesn't have big-name actors in it already doesn't come along too often.

      IMO, email is the same way.

      Your favorite niche guru could start out an SOS sequence with cold traffic, and it's going to work better because their new list members already have a certain amount of investment into their credibility and such.

      If you're getting someone new into your funnel and they don't know who you are, then that kinda thing is much tougher to pull off that fast and early, IMO.

      Whereas, if you treat each email as its own self-contained story (which is what I do), you don't have to worry about the sequence getting jacked up. If somebody reads the first one, misses the 2nd/3rd one, then hits you back up on number 3/4, they can basically pick right back up where they left off.

      At least that's my experience. Each of my emails are self-contained, story-based, start with a time/place element ("I remember back in high school"...learned that from Furey), and use the story to pitch a benefit. Pull/base your email titles from headlines off covers of magazines in your niche, and you're golden.

      Not too tough once you have some practice.

      Now if you're segmenting a list, getting referral traffic, going through a launch, or building a back-end autoresponder, you can use an SOS much more effectively.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    see... alex... when you are the real deal and have proof, you don't need to resort to that "persuasion" garbage.

    get it?
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    • Profile picture of the author Pusateri
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      see... alex... when you are the real deal and have proof, you don't need to resort to that "persuasion" garbage.

      get it?
      Prove it.

      Show me a high converting page featuring proof of claim, but no other persuasion elements.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Pusateri View Post

        Prove it.

        Show me a high converting page featuring proof of claim, but no other persuasion elements.
        Ditto, let's see it Dave.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      see... alex... when you are the real deal and have proof, you don't need to resort to that "persuasion" garbage.

      get it?
      Here's what I get Dave... every time YOU write copy, YOU include persuasion techniques.

      An attention-grabbing headline - a persuasion technique.
      Establish value - a persuasion technique.
      Call to action - a persuasion technique.

      So get off you high horse.

      Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author Robert_Rand
      I don't think anyone is disputing the power of proof. It's this that people disagree with:

      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      see... alex... when you are the real deal and have proof, you don't need to resort to that "persuasion" garbage.
      Frank Kern had a very involved launch, leveraging all kinds of tactics - likability being at the top of the list. You can't underestimate that. Yes, proof played a big role but it was far from "here's the proof, take it or leave it."

      You also have to keep in mind that you're talking about some of the most discerning buyers on the planet when it comes to the high end bizopp niche.

      And still, even in that niche, most people make decisions emotionally and justify logically. That's the way it always will be regardless of how many people say, "Don't BS me just give me the facts."

      Just resorting to proof isn't going to get the job done. Not if you have something you believe in and want to maximize the conversion rate.

      Yes, there are a lot of people who make decisions very objectively. They're harder to engage emotionally. They're far less likely to watch a full VSL from the standpoint of a prospect. They price shop. They compare. I bet you'll find a lot of those people here. But in the real world, I think it's safe to say most people aren't like that.

      For your own product, you don't just have a 1 page sales letter with proof, do you? You have a full vsl. Why? I think that's the main point people are trying to make.

      There are an overwhelming amount of very successful marketers who got there with little, if any, proof. And there are those with proof out the ying yang who are starving.

      And how is persuasion "garbage"? Isn't what you teach in your own product a form of persuasion?

      It's like two car salesman, selling the exact same product. One wears cheap cologne and is pushy. The other knows how to ask questions, smile, and shut up. That's persuasion. Just one example out of millions... I'm not sure why anyone selling anything would want to disregard "persuasion".

      Frankly, it's shocking to me that this conversation is even taking place here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Robert_Rand View Post

        I don't think anyone is disputing the power of proof. It's this that people disagree with:



        Frank Kern had a very involved launch, leveraging all kinds of tactics - likability being at the top of the list. You can't underestimate that. Yes, proof played a big role but it was far from "here's the proof, take it or leave it."

        You also have to keep in mind that you're talking about some of the most discerning buyers on the planet when it comes to the high end bizopp niche.

        And still, even in that niche, most people make decisions emotionally and justify logically. That's the way it always will be regardless of how many people say, "Don't BS me just give me the facts."

        Just resorting to proof isn't going to get the job done. Not if you have something you believe in and want to maximize the conversion rate.

        Yes, there are a lot of people who make decisions very objectively. They're harder to engage emotionally. They're far less likely to watch a full VSL from the standpoint of a prospect. They price shop. They compare. I bet you'll find a lot of those people here. But in the real world, I think it's safe to say most people aren't like that.

        For your own product, you don't just have a 1 page sales letter with proof, do you? You have a full vsl. Why? I think that's the main point people are trying to make.

        In the real world, there are an overwhelming amount of very successful marketers who got there with little, if any, proof. And there are those with proof out the ying yang who are starving.

        And how is persuasion "garbage"? Isn't what you teach in your own product a form of persuasion?

        It's like two car salesman, selling the exact same product. One wears cheap cologne and is pushy. The other knows how to ask questions, smile, and shut up. That's persuasion. Just one example out of millions... I'm not sure why anyone selling anything would want to disregard "persuasion".

        Frankly, it's shocking to me that this conversation is even taking place here.
        Spot on post right here
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      • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
        Originally Posted by Robert_Rand View Post

        I don't think anyone is disputing the power of proof. It's this that people disagree with:

        Frank Kern had a very involved launch, leveraging all kinds of tactics - likability being at the top of the list. You can't underestimate that. Yes, proof played a big role but it was far from "here's the proof, take it or leave it."


        You also have to keep in mind that you're talking about some of the most discerning buyers on the planet when it comes to the high end bizopp niche.

        And still, even in that niche, most people make decisions emotionally and justify logically. That's the way it always will be regardless of how many people say, "Don't BS me just give me the facts."

        Just resorting to proof isn't going to get the job done. Not if you have something you believe in and want to maximize the conversion rate.

        Yes, there are a lot of people who make decisions very objectively. They're harder to engage emotionally. They're far less likely to watch a full VSL from the standpoint of a prospect. They price shop. They compare. I bet you'll find a lot of those people here. But in the real world, I think it's safe to say most people aren't like that.

        For your own product, you don't just have a 1 page sales letter with proof, do you? You have a full vsl. Why? I think that's the main point people are trying to make.

        There are an overwhelming amount of very successful marketers who got there with little, if any, proof. And there are those with proof out the ying yang who are starving.

        And how is persuasion "garbage"? Isn't what you teach in your own product a form of persuasion?


        It's like two car salesman, selling the exact same product. One wears cheap cologne and is pushy. The other knows how to ask questions, smile, and shut up. That's persuasion. Just one example out of millions... I'm not sure why anyone selling anything would want to disregard "persuasion".

        Frankly, it's shocking to me that this conversation is even taking place here.
        Exactly. Right on the money.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    unfortunately, doesn't matter what I say or show you jabroni's because you've already made up your minds...

    Anything you're shown disproves your position, and automatically is tossed away, "proven" wrong...
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      unfortunately, doesn't matter what I say or show you jabroni's because you've already made up your minds...

      Anything you're shown disproves your position, and automatically is tossed away, "proven" wrong...
      :rolleyes: Come on Dave, are you really trying to pull the ol' "I actually don't have an example to back up my claims so I'm just gonna make some excuse about how these guys' minds are made up so I don't have to post anything" excuse?

      It's not your first day on the internet, don't be that guy who can't either back up his claims or admit he's wrong.

      Just cite a single example of a highly-converting sales page that features proof, but no persuasive techniques, like you said.

      My mind is open. Show me the light.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    Banned
    My mind is open as well, just waiting...
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    sorry guys, i'm not posting my stuff, url's or anything like that in a public forum... you've all seen that "WARNING" squeeze page? mine... opened my mouth and now the thing is everywhere... jabroni's are even selling it... so no thanks.

    luke... dont be THAT guy... the condescending d-bag... seriously bro.

    ever seen a ppv lander? proof and a button.

    oh wait. a button is now a persuasion tactic.

    oh... and no one here's ever done a launch either.

    wait. you heard someone was making big money doing launches.

    wow sounds like proof to me.

    wait.. you guys signed up to kerns list and/or bought mass control.

    shoot.... he was using proof too... $23 mill in launches.

    and of course none of you guys ever bought a traffic course.

    and ya... the guy selling it never talked about proof... you never saw any screenshots of how much traffic he's getting...

    c'mon man...
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    • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      sorry guys, i'm not posting my stuff, url's or anything like that in a public forum... you've all seen that "WARNING" squeeze page? mine... opened my mouth and now the thing is everywhere... jabroni's are even selling it... so no thanks.

      luke... dont be THAT guy... the condescending d-bag... seriously bro.

      ever seen a ppv lander? proof and a button.

      oh wait. a button is now a persuasion tactic.

      oh... and no one here's ever done a launch either.

      wait. you heard someone was making big money doing launches.

      wow sounds like proof to me.

      wait.. you guys signed up to kerns list and/or bought mass control.

      shoot.... he was using proof too... $23 mill in launches.

      and of course none of you guys ever bought a traffic course.

      and ya... the guy selling it never talked about proof... you never saw any screenshots of how much traffic he's getting...

      c'mon man...
      Seriously, you are going to use PPV as examples as "proof" that have NO persuasion techniques?

      I think I just laughed a little bit inside.

      Ok...maybe much more than a little bit.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      sorry guys, i'm not posting my stuff, url's or anything like that in a public forum... you've all seen that "WARNING" squeeze page? mine... opened my mouth and now the thing is everywhere... jabroni's are even selling it... so no thanks.

      luke... dont be THAT guy... the condescending d-bag... seriously bro.
      Pot, meet kettle.

      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      oh... and no one here's ever done a launch either.

      wait. you heard someone was making big money doing launches.

      wow sounds like proof to me.
      LOL that's about modeling something that's working, it has nothing to do with this conversation. Unless you want to talk about specific product launch products, in which ALL of them use persuasion in their copy. Yes, all of them.
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      wait.. you guys signed up to kerns list and/or bought mass control.

      shoot.... he was using proof too... $23 mill in launches.
      You're making our point for us. Kern uses a lot of persuasion techniques and the courses are even largely about that. Proof is just one element he uses. Keep proving yourself wrong Dave, you're on a roll.
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      and of course none of you guys ever bought a traffic course.

      and ya... the guy selling it never talked about proof... you never saw any screenshots of how much traffic he's getting...
      Yup, and he also used persuasion. Once more, you're making our point.

      I can't tell if you're trolling or just not smart enough to understand the very simple point we're making: Proof is just one technique that is used in sales, but it doesn't negate the need for other persuasive techniques.

      Again, you said:
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      see... alex... when you are the real deal and have proof, you don't need to resort to that "persuasion" garbage.

      get it?
      Now prove it, like you've been asked to several times already. Post a sales page, or hell, a launch sequence from anyone (maybe Kern or one of the guys you brought up above) that ONLY uses proof and no persuasion. No attention-grabbing headline, no intrigue-sparking bullet points, no calls-to-action, no scarcity or urgency, etc, etc.

      Or are you going to continue to get upset and name-call when you're ridiculous "persuasion doesn't matter in copywriting" point gets called out and laughed at? My guess would be the latter.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    ... and you are who again?
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    • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      ... and you are who again?
      Here comes the ego game, I can FEEL it ;-)

      The more you type, the more I just have to shake my head.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    nothing to do with ego pal... I have nothing to promote, or pitch, nothing in my sig... you have no clue what I do online. You're free to shake your head, slap your forehead or do whatever. If reese said it, I respect him, then I'd be concerned.

    You? not worried bro. :-)

    Here's the best part... here's where you insert your foot in your mouth ...

    i saw one of your posts asking for kerns optin page.... so, you're on kerns list... how'd you get there without seeing any proof?

    his mass control thing was based off PROOF, $23 million in launches.

    I rest my case.
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    • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      nothing to do with ego bro... you're free to shake your head, slap your forehead or do whatever... you're not anyone of any importance to me. If reese said it, I respect him, then I'd be concerned.

      You? not worried bro.

      Here's the best part... here you insert your foot in your mouth ...

      i saw one of your posts asking for kerns optin page.... so, you're on kerns list... how'd you get there without seeing any proof?

      his whole mass control thing was based off PROOF, $23 million in launches. I worked with him on that, so I know.

      I rest my case.
      Foot in my mouth because I wanted to know about his optin page? I'm on his list because of PROOF only?

      Now THAT is funny!

      You continue to dig yourself into a hole "bro". And I could care less who you've worked with. Get over yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    you got on there because of proof.

    his whole launch was base off proof.

    game over. :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      you got on there because of proof.

      his whole launch was base off proof.

      game over. :-)
      Done yet, because I don't know how much more of this laughing I can take ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    surprised you can do anything with that foot of yours in your mouth.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    Banned
    He can't prove it. The more he talks, the more he just digs a deeper hole.

    His ego just can't take it. He can't prove himself, and he can't actually be human and admit he is wrong.

    I find it quite entertaining.

    Ya know, there is a reason they call it "marketing".
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    once again, you two jabroni's have proven my point... you've already made up your minds... anything I've said, you've twisted to justify your position.

    again here's my post:

    proof trumps everything.

    he's got no proof... why the **** should i listen?

    if what you're doing works, you WANT to show people proof.

    would you have believed kern if he didnt do $23 mill in launches?

    or halbert or carlton without knowing the results of their copy?

    or... would you invest your money with a broker who talks a good game but has no proof of results?
    how the hell you guys twist this into "show me a page without anything else" is beyond me... reading comprehension goes a long way folks.

    A bunch of us marketers are here, reading this and laughing our rear ends off at how stupid you guys sound...

    you're giving us great entertainment for the day... keep going...
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      once again, you two jabroni's have proven my point... you've already made up your minds... anything I've said, you've twisted to justify your position.

      again here's my post:

      how the hell you guys twist this into "show me a page without anything else" is beyond me... reading comprehension goes a long way folks.

      A bunch of us marketers are here, reading this and laughing our rear ends off at how stupid you guys sound...

      you're giving us great entertainment for the day... keep going...
      :rolleyes: LOL Dave, you still don't get it. People are indeed laughing, just not with you.

      Again, this is the post we're referencing and you're refusing to address:
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      see... alex... when you are the real deal and have proof, you don't need to resort to that "persuasion" garbage.

      get it?
      You call Persuasion "garbage" and say it's not needed if you have "proof", yet you refuse to post evidence to support that ridiculous assertion. So far, several people asked you (multiple times) to highlight ANY sales page, launch sequence, or really any sales message where only proof is used, and persuasive techniques aren't. You haven't done so, and it's clearly because you can't find anything to post, so you just keep digging in deeper.

      And really, that's about what we all expected. It's also very ironic that you're in a thread about Ben Settle and spouting off nonsense when you're exactly the type of poster he warns about here: Warrior Forum 90210

      Again, proof is a powerful factor in sales, but it does not negate the need for persuasive techniques. Period.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    There's another, arguably more powerful form of proof - but it's a longer ride around the block.

    It's demonstration of mastery of the topic.

    Imagine a street magician performing an illusion.
    The very next thing he does is quickly show you how he did it.

    You now instantly believe whatever he tells you next about magic - you have to, he just demonstrated his mastery or PROVED IT to you.

    Screenshots can't do that. Testimonials don't do that.

    A great product demo can do it, but most don't.

    Now get along you knuckleheads before the grownups hear us and come in here bitching.

    Brian
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      There's another, arguably more powerful form of proof - but it's a longer ride around the block.

      It's demonstration of mastery of the topic.

      Imagine a street magician performing an illusion.
      The very next thing he does is quickly show you how he did it.

      You now instantly believe whatever he tells you next about magic - you have to, he just demonstrated his mastery or PROVED IT to you.

      Screenshots can't do that. Testimonials don't do that.

      A great product demo can do it, but most don't.

      Now get along you knuckleheads before the grownups hear us and come in here bitching.

      Brian
      I couldn't agree more, Brian.

      Ron Popeil proved this point with his Ronco food dehydrators,
      rotisserie ovens, and his hundred other inventions.

      Demonstrations made him wealthy beyond means.

      Demos work well because it shows you exactly how the
      benefits are received.

      Watch TV on any given Saturday morning and you'll see how
      powerful demonstrations are when it comes to proof... there's
      probably 3 to 4 million dollars worth of infomercials running at that
      time... all using demonstrations as their proof elements.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
    Demonstration is a form of proof.
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

      Demonstration is a form of proof.
      Correct... I don't think anyone is implying it's not... you're 100% right!

      And Sean mentioned Bencivenga... who in his retirement seminar
      gave a list of the best ways to create/offer proof.

      Out of the 7 or so elements that Gary mentions... I've found
      the demonstration one to work the best for me, in my
      sales letters.

      I'll usually do it by trying to create a video that
      offers a demonstration of the product at work.

      but another one that Gary mentions, that works
      well for me is explaining HOW the product delivers
      the benefits.

      In other words, show the prospect exactly
      how the product works... and why it offers
      up the benefits you claim.

      When you explain how you're able to do something,
      the prospect can better understand how you're able to
      deliver the benefits.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    mal…

    yes… with the kool aid. (I know some ppl making bank with it tho, crazy)

    I brought up kern... AND... walker, reese and others selling traffic, because they all use proof. I bought kern up again because SOMEONE was on their list… and his strategy was PROOF (obviously with other things), but all them share proof being the core.

    no one would care about "the dude" or his videos, if they didn't know he did $23 mill in launches…(proof)

    none of the guys here would be doing launches if they didn't hear about jeff's "6 in seven" thing either. (proof)

    totally right, positioning is very critical and he's a master at that, but without the proof its missing something.

    Keep in mind we were talking about the OP's comments, so context is important.

    Brian... ron is awesome.... dude is a selling machine!

    but doesn't sean have a point? demonstration is a form of proof.

    sean…

    ya... most are phony.... when you have proof everything else is easy... no need to focus on "persuasion" stuff.... you just make your offer, the rest is easy. When you don't have proof, thats when ppl focus on "persuasion" and all that other stuff.

    pat has an awesome blog… definitely one to look at and model..

    luke, you're not getting it pal... unfortunately, you're in no position to demand anything, so for the umpteenth time, I don't post links to my stuff on public forums.

    If you want examples, go dissect the examples I've given above... I've given some good ones, oddly enough, you haven't mentioned anything about them... wonder why?
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    robert good post....

    ya... its amazing, I've been a member here since 2003, 10 years and now... you post something here and get condescending comments, flaming and whatnot...

    by people who've never done anything in the biz.

    mind-boggling.

    I'll put my copy against those 2 any day of the week.

    anywhoo...

    Interesting comments.... now, my question to you is this...

    if proof wasn't the main thing, why is it in the headline?

    why is PLF 2.0 have proof in the headline?

    why did traffic secrets headline say PROOF?

    Obviously proof is not the only thing... but my point the whole time is when you have proof, you don't need to worry about that "other" stuff.

    Everything else is easy.

    Like sean fry said above,

    when you do have very strong proof, you really don't need much of the other elements of pursuasion because proof itself is a pursuasion element
    Again, read the context of the post in relation to the thread... context is important.

    My stuff, I have many different funnels and pages, so what you think you see isn't the whole story. There are pages with only proof and a link, ppv pages optin pages, sales pages... I test everything.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    I was actually trying to be a bit specific about the type of demonstration... more in terms of personally demonstrating MASTERY of the topic at hand.

    Sort of the difference between proving a product does what you say with a demo versus proving that the individual is clearly an expert and thus believable.

    Let's use an example...

    If I'm talking to inventors - and I can perfectly articulate their three greatest personal fears about the inventing process... I prove very quickly that I not only understand them (empathy, rapport) but that I MUST therefore be very knowledgable about the subject overall (mastery). How else could I zero in so accurately for them?

    Just different layers of the same onion, right?

    Brian
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    Speaking of proof... one of the best "cheat sheets" on proof I've EVER read is one that was put out by Clayton Makepeace and Anthony Flores.

    It was on something called a permachart... and it was called "The Power of Proof and Credibility" and it listed something like 23 or 24 of the most powerful proof elements you can use in copy.

    I think I paid $7 for it back in 2007 and to this day, its the one publication I use when writing copy and needing to find proof elements.

    I don't know if it's still for sale... but it's one of the best "cheat sheets" on proof elements I've ever read.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    I don't know Ben personally, but he is one of the few (probably only) emailers I actually read everyday.

    Food for thought.

    (Yes, his email brought me here).

    Lolz
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    • Profile picture of the author Wiggy0618
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      I don't know Ben personally, but he is one of the few (probably only) emailers I actually read everyday.

      Food for thought.

      (Yes, his email brought me here).

      Lolz
      Goes for me as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author CtrlAltRage
    I don't have much to say because I'm not a guru in the business nor do I try to claim to be. But I will say that I used to frequent this forum quite a bit. Hours a day in fact. Then I realized 90% of the stuff or more is just rehashed gobbledygook that turns into a flame war and pissing match between who thinks who is right. Who claims their business is better, etc etc.

    Now, BECAUSE of this forum I've gotten to where I am now. In a strong position (to myself) in the marketing world. I've gotten my foundation laid out and looking to the future.

    No product on here made me that way. I just happened to meet a couple people that don't really frequent this place too often who captured my interest. Now I barely check this place anymore except for a couple ideas and/or to see if any threads seem interesting.

    Now, I'm not going to come down on anyone here. Or try to prove anyone right or wrong, but at the end of the day I like to put this in perspective.

    There are 3 underlying factors here. These factors can have many things fall into them such as launching, information, etc. etc.

    But these three things are:

    Proof, Belief and Faith.

    Which one of these are more important?

    Certainly proof could be considered as such because you've "proven" something works. Then again, I can "prove" that I can survive a 10 story fall. But that doesn't mean you will.

    What about belief and faith? I remember talking to a guy who said belief and faith were the same thing. But in reality they are incredibly different. Belief is looking at a dilapidated wooden suspension bridge and believing it will hold your weight as you walk across.

    Faith? Is walking across the bridge.

    In my opinion. So many people have seen proof after proof, especially on these forums. Every WSO released here has some form of "proof" whether it a testimonial or screenshot of earnings, etc.

    But when you boil it down, your customers didn't buy off of your "proof". They bought off of their belief or faith in you (and themselves).

    Just my two cents.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      But when you boil it down, your customers didn't buy off of your "proof". They bought off of their belief or faith in you (and themselves).
      Proof creates belief.

      As do numerous other techniques.

      And prospects buy because they believe your solution will give them the results they seek.

      Alex
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    • Profile picture of the author Wiggy0618
      Originally Posted by CtrlAltRage View Post


      ...insert epic post here...
      Bravo.

      *insert slow clap gif here*
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