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Long form sales letters getting negative reactions?

by johndetlefs
25 replies
Hey guys,

Out of a random bit of curiosity based on how I was feeling after seeing a couple of them, I asked a bunch of friends who are not in internet marketing what their first reactions are when they see a longform sales letter site.

Without exception they all gave negative reactions... some quite emotional, and others being completely dismissive with no real emotion at all, as if it immediately made a website of no consequence.

I have to admit that I'm getting the same way. I can't remember the last product that I purchased from a long form sales letter, and I click away the moment I see one.

I do, however, purchase a boatload of products from Amazon.com where I get to read all of the reviews.

Are you guys getting similar feedback? I'm not interested so much as to whether longform is "good" or "bad" but more whether you're getting similar feedback from out there in the wild?

Cheers,

John Detlefs
#form #letters #long #negative #reactions #sales
  • Profile picture of the author Grain
    Long copy always works - at least for the less sophisticated customers who've seen fewer promises and products.

    What you should be asking them about is the headline instead... No matter how much you hate the design, when you see something that grips your emotions, it's going to shut down your logical faculties. Ugly copy itself works because it's readable and not distracting.

    Of course, you could always disguise it depending on what kind of traffic you're going to receive. I've seen some disguise themselves as articles, or newspaper articles... Even review sites (which is basically what Amazon excels in)... Even forums, or things that completely don't even look like a long form sales letter. You could try a video sales letter.

    The main thing is that you need to grasp them at where they are. If they're aware of their problem but not a solution, you need to start from where they are - the problem. Not the product.
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    Kind Regards,
    Grain.

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    • Profile picture of the author svedski
      Originally Posted by Grain View Post

      Long copy always works - at least for the less sophisticated customers who've seen fewer promises and products.

      What you should be asking them about is the headline instead... No matter how much you hate the design, when you see something that grips your emotions, it's going to shut down your logical faculties. Ugly copy itself works because it's readable and not distracting.

      Of course, you could always disguise it depending on what kind of traffic you're going to receive. I've seen some disguise themselves as articles, or newspaper articles... Even review sites (which is basically what Amazon excels in)... Even forums, or things that completely don't even look like a long form sales letter. You could try a video sales letter.

      The main thing is that you need to grasp them at where they are. If they're aware of their problem but not a solution, you need to start from where they are - the problem. Not the product.
      Sorry to break it to you pal, but you're wrong. Long copy doesn't always work, even if it's great copy. Sometimes short copy is actually better, regardless of what Gary Halbert has said.

      It depends on the product you're selling. If you don't need a long copy to sell it, then by all means don't use long copy.

      I split-tested a physical product, one 12-page copy (great piece of copy) vs. a 2-page. The 2-page outpulled the long copy by over 100%!

      (By the way, I'm not bashing long copy here at all. I believe it is usually better than short copy. But not always, that's my point)

      To the OP: Don't listen to what people say. Watch what they do.
      And I want to agree with Loren here...if the person stumbling across a long letter about something isn't interested in that particular subject..then obviously, they won't want to read it!

      The only way you're ever going to know if it works or not is by doing an actual test, with real money, and some real targeted traffic. That's how you know. Don't listen to what people say. Especially not someone who knows nothing about marketing or sales.

      Also, it is easy to fall into the trap where you think everybody else thinks the same way as you do. When you say you only buy from Amazon where you can read reviews..well, realize that you probably know (as a marketer) more than 99,9% of the world's population about direct marketing. Your customers don't know the tricks you're using in your salesletter, and they don't realize how it works. Me too is numb from reading too many salesletters (and writing them). That doesn't mean that my customers are. To them, a typical "Amazing new..."-headline might be something new and exciting.

      Of course, the level of "numbness" also depends on what market you're in. If you're selling to other marketers for example, you're going to have to change your approach a little bit.
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      • Profile picture of the author Grain
        Originally Posted by stolpioni View Post

        Sorry to break it to you pal, but you're wrong. Long copy doesn't always work, even if it's great copy. Sometimes short copy is actually better, regardless of what Gary Halbert has said.

        It depends on the product you're selling. If you don't need a long copy to sell it, then by all means don't use long copy.

        I split-tested a physical product, one 12-page copy (great piece of copy) vs. a 2-page. The 2-page outpulled the long copy by over 100%!

        (By the way, I'm not bashing long copy here at all. I believe it is usually better than short copy. But not always, that's my point)

        To the OP: Don't listen to what people say. Watch what they do.
        And I want to agree with Loren here...if the person stumbling across a long letter about something isn't interested in that particular subject..then obviously, they won't want to read it!

        The only way you're ever going to know if it works or not is by doing an actual test, with real money, and some real targeted traffic. That's how you know. Don't listen to what people say. Especially not someone who knows nothing about marketing or sales.

        Also, it is easy to fall into the trap where you think everybody else thinks the same way as you do. When you say you only buy from Amazon where you can read reviews..well, realize that you probably know (as a marketer) more than 99,9% of the world's population about direct marketing. Your customers don't know the tricks you're using in your salesletter, and they don't realize how it works. Me too is numb from reading too many salesletters (and writing them). That doesn't mean that my customers are. To them, a typical "Amazing new..."-headline might be something new and exciting.

        Of course, the level of "numbness" also depends on what market you're in. If you're selling to other marketers for example, you're going to have to change your approach a little bit.
        Long copy does not mean literally "long" for the sake of being long.

        The length hardly matters and I don't give a damn about Gary Halbert because my own split-tests tell me the truth. While A-class copywriters are A-class, they also have their many bombs and misses.

        What I meant by long was as long as possible to sell the product.

        If your idea of having a long sales letter means writing a huge horde of junk that doesn't serve the prospect's perspective, then I totally agree with you. It's much better off using a shorter piece of copy that isn't longwinded.

        Long copy does not mean trying to cover all the bases and throwing in pies on the wall, hoping one will stick. Long copy MUST be tightly knit. It MUST be effective copy.

        Short copy is copy that falls short.

        If 2 pages is all that is needed for a prospect, that is considered long enough copy for the sale, go for it. In other words, cut the BS.

        Most products with high brand awareness hardly require any form of persuasion to go on with the sale. That's when you throw in "here's a bargain for this product". Hardly any copy needed.

        But when you meet a prospect with higher sophistication, you need longer copy. Because the prospect hasn't reached the decision of buying yet.

        He's stuck at the problem or maybe he doesn't even know he has a problem. He stuck at choosing a product, but he doesn't know which one to pick.

        In cases like that, it's obviously essential to write more, because those portions are obviously needed.
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        Kind Regards,
        Grain.

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        • Profile picture of the author svedski
          Originally Posted by Grain View Post

          Long copy does not mean literally "long" for the sake of being long.

          The length hardly matters and I don't give a damn about Gary Halbert because my own split-tests tell me the truth. While A-class copywriters are A-class, they also have their many bombs and misses.

          What I meant by long was as long as possible to sell the product.

          If your idea of having a long sales letter means writing a huge horde of junk that doesn't serve the prospect's perspective, then I totally agree with you. It's much better off using a shorter piece of copy that isn't longwinded.

          Long copy does not mean trying to cover all the bases and throwing in pies on the wall, hoping one will stick. Long copy MUST be tightly knit. It MUST be effective copy.

          Short copy is copy that falls short.

          If 2 pages is all that is needed for a prospect, that is considered long enough copy for the sale, go for it. In other words, cut the BS.

          Most products with high brand awareness hardly require any form of persuasion to go on with the sale. That's when you throw in "here's a bargain for this product". Hardly any copy needed.

          But when you meet a prospect with higher sophistication, you need longer copy. Because the prospect hasn't reached the decision of buying yet.

          He's stuck at the problem or maybe he doesn't even know he has a problem. He stuck at choosing a product, but he doesn't know which one to pick.

          In cases like that, it's obviously essential to write more, because those portions are obviously needed.
          Ok in that case I misinterpreted you. In my eyes, long copy is everything from about 4 pages and above. Short copy is everything below that.

          So, all in all, I agree with you.
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          • Profile picture of the author johndetlefs
            Originally Posted by AndrewCavanagh View Post

            On the topic of reviews if you're smart you would be testing sales letters packed with testimonials with the format of reviews.
            Yep, it's a good call and something that I'm doing at the moment. John Carlton and I'm sure others always talk about reviews or testimonials, and as long as they include negative or "realistic" reviews it's a huge selling point for me.

            Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

            This whole thread is just another worthless long vs. short debate.

            Mark
            It certainly wasn't meant to be Mark, and I don't start posts to be link bait or to rehash worn out debates. I'm not necessarily a copywriter by trade, although a lot of the articles I write have a copywriting element to them, and I've found that the less hype around a sales page lately the better.

            That's why I asked the question, and it wasn't necessarily asking whether short form is better, but questioning the idea of a sales "letter" altogether.

            I understand that video is just a new kind of sales letter, but really I was trying to find out whether the shift to Amazon style marketing is pervasive or whether long form sales letters were just as good as they ever were.

            I know that for me personally, a long form sales letter is a step back, and a hindrance to the sale, because I feel that I'm almost certainly dealing with an "internet marketer" who has simply created a product by regurgitating and blending the contents of a couple of books that he/she has read.

            It's the Frank Kern / Ryan Deiss school of becoming an 'expert' and I've found that it goes hand in hand with long form sales letters and overpriced information, and I was wondering whether the antipathy toward that style of sales was starting to flow out to the mainstream.

            Possibly my familiarity with the WF and the constant stream of new marketers posting wild claims on their signatures has made me a little jaded, and for that reason I went out and spoke to a few people about it.

            And I didn't just show them a random sales page, these people are friends of mine and we spoke about it at length, and their reactions were quite strong on the topic, and almost all of them distrusted long form sales letters, and especially those with the "Dear friend..." style of writing.

            From my small sample it seemed that it was a question worthy of being asked?

            Cheers,

            John Detlefs
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            You only get one shot at life - make it awesome.

            Everyone else also gets just one crack at it - help make theirs awesome too... or, politely step out of their way.

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            • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
              Originally Posted by johndetlefs View Post

              And I didn't just show them a random sales page, these people are friends of mine and we spoke about it at length, and their reactions were quite strong on the topic, and almost all of them distrusted long form sales letters, and especially those with the "Dear friend..." style of writing.

              From my small sample it seemed that it was a question worthy of being asked?

              Cheers,

              John Detlefs
              You know why long form sales letters were invented?

              Because back in the day, you'd send someone a letter in the mail... and the information in that letter was all they would have as they decided whether to buy.

              Therefore, you had to write and write and write, making sure they had enough information to justify making the decision.

              (Nowdays, there are other ways of getting people that information, ways that happen to sometimes be more engaging -- like videos, presell pages, reviews elsewhere, etc.)

              Go read the Admiral Byrd Transpolar Expedition letter. Classic long form... but, I'll bet you would still get your friends reading if you sent it to them today.

              Here's the opening:
              Dear Mr. Name:

              As Chairman of the Admiral Richard E. Byrd Polar Center, it is my privilege to invite you to
              become a member of an expedition which is destined to make both news and history.

              It will cost you $10,000 and about 26 days of your time, Frankly, you will endure some
              discomfort, and may even face some danger.

              On the other hand, you will have the rare privilege of taking part in a mission of great
              significance for the United States and the entire world. A mission, incidentally, which has never
              before been attempted by man.
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  • Profile picture of the author alvinchua91
    Long form sales letter works.. as proven by split tests by marketers around the world.

    Yes, sometimes I land on a long page and I hate it. But when I pause to think about it, the only reason I didn't like it was either because
    1) I wasn't interested in the topic at all
    2) The copy was bad

    If the copy was decent and the topic of the page was geared towards what I was looking for a long time, then I would read through the entire page without feeling irritated at all. In fact, it would probably work better at persuading me from my past experience.
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  • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
    Traditional long form works... for a certain market.

    Long form even works for people with Long Form Aversion Syndrome... and, in fact, it's used all the time to sell to those people. How?

    You bring on a good designer to add graphics and space out the text even more. Why? Because people with LFAS are people with ADD, too. They want more stimulation than text can give them.

    Venapro - Homeopathic Hemorrhoid Relief was posted here a while back... I'm not sure I like the OVER use of fonts, but I'll bet those of you who click away on traditional long form keep reading when you see that page.
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    • Profile picture of the author OutOfThisWord
      No one reads long form sales letters, junk mail or the National Enquirer.

      And anyone who believes that is uninformed or not able to actually practice direct marketing.
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    • Profile picture of the author serryjw
      OMG, MY BRAIN just EXPLODED. I would last 3 seconds on that website.
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  • Profile picture of the author website design
    Depends on the product you're selling and the mental state of the customer. If they are searching for 'buy' keywords and end up on your site then give them the amazon type 'buy now'. If the product is straight forward/cheap/low emotional involvement then push the buy now immediately. --- However if the customer is searching for information, comparing products or has low involvement in higher priced items then long form sales letters are gold. Long form sales letters are an art form that involves psychological warfare. You need to understand your unique selling position, really understand the customers desires and benefits they want, answer all their questions in a logical fashion, persuasive writing style, etc, etc.
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    no sig needed.
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  • Profile picture of the author alvinchua91
    In general, a physical product will only require a shorter copy to be sold.

    A digital product will generally require a longer copy. But even then, I mean like the typical Clickbank pages; not 22 pages of crappy long letters.
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    • Profile picture of the author johndetlefs
      Originally Posted by alvinchua91 View Post

      Yes, sometimes I land on a long page and I hate it. But when I pause to think about it, the only reason I didn't like it was either because
      1) I wasn't interested in the topic at all
      2) The copy was bad
      That's probably a fair call.. the product wasn't mine BTW just a random sales page that was of a decent quality.. it was just interesting how all of them instantly turned away from it.

      Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

      Why should your friends who don't want your product and don't do advertising be interested in your sales letters?

      A lot of internet sales letter are overwritten,
      imo - the lack of financial constraints of
      printing and postage costs, you know.
      Wasn't my product, but I think you're right in that a lot of long form letters turn into Extra Long form letters.

      Originally Posted by stolpioni View Post

      When you say you only buy from Amazon where you can read reviews..well, realize that you probably know (as a marketer) more than 99,9% of the world's population about direct marketing.
      That may well be true, but these days I think less and less... I certainly know the techniques I'm using, but I'm finding that I'm having to be far more subtle these days than was needed in the past.

      For a lot of markets I think the average punter is a lot more sophisticated than they used to be.

      Thanks very much for the feedback!

      John Detlefs
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      You only get one shot at life - make it awesome.

      Everyone else also gets just one crack at it - help make theirs awesome too... or, politely step out of their way.

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  • Profile picture of the author ReferralCandy
    The most important thing about a sales letter is that the copy is good. Here's how I think it plays out:

    Good long copy is better than good short copy
    good short copy is better than long (or short) bad copy

    It often bothers me how we talk about "long form vs. short form" while ignoring the quality of the copy- which I think is most important of all.

    RE: Venapro, I think it's better than some long copy sites, but it's still really convoluted and messy in my book. I'd recommend checking out something like GoodUI for input on how to make things more streamlined and scroll-inducing.
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    Measure, manage and incentivize customer referrals with ReferralCandy.

    PS: Looking to get more repeat customers for a physical store? Check out CandyBar's digital loyalty cards!

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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Warriors
    Internet marketing is not something that has any appeal to the vast majority of people. Just being real here.
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  • Profile picture of the author flowerz
    long vs short debate is useless.

    It all depends on the "style" of your customer base and their likings. Its not like there is a universal form that works. You have to test your customers to know what they like and what works.
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  • Profile picture of the author haffow
    You bring on a good designer to add graphics and space out the text even more. Why? Because people with LFAS are people with ADD, too. They want more stimulation than text can give them.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
    People have always said they hate sales letters...there's nothing
    new in that.

    Your observation about being able to read reviews could be a big
    one.

    Paying attention to your own behaviour can give you some amazing
    breakthroughs.

    I can tell you on the topic of sales letters that great sales letters are
    usually in a format that is enticing for the target prospect to read.

    So with traditional sales letters in newspapers often a sales letter was
    made to look like an article in the paper (same size headline, same font
    in the body copy...similar formatting).


    And online sales letters that are reports can be powerful.

    One of the reasons video sales letters are becoming more popular is
    because that's a format people are used to looking at online.


    On the topic of reviews if you're smart you would be testing sales letters
    packed with testimonials with the format of reviews.

    Putting testimonials in the area of the copy they directly relate to is also
    an obvious strategy and it allows you to get more testimonials into a sales
    letter.

    Ultimately if you have an idea you're going to have to test it...not just go on
    opinion.

    Kindest regards,
    Andrew Cavanagh
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    Old School Copy Like This Is BACK & Converting Like Crazy!
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    10% conversion rate on cold traffic means 90 out of every 100 bail on the page.

    What's new here?
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    Brian McLeod
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  • Profile picture of the author Glenn@AllGoodCopy
    "Don’t worry about the length of your copy – just make sure it effectively argues the case for your product or service."
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    Discover more than twenty PROVEN conversion booster tactics...

    Get access to EXCLUSIVE videos on how to fix broken copy...

    And schedule a one-on-one PERSONALISED copy critique. Find out more.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    I found it interested that the owner of the #1 product on Clickbank says that long form sales letters don't work.

    Sure...

    That was HIS experience.

    And his opinion wasn't based on testing long copy against a shorter letter. He was building the case for video (PowerPoint... then a scribe/doodle presentation.)

    The fact is...

    Long copy letters ARE working for people who position them well.

    That won't ever change. Ever.

    But this whole conversation was started on the premise of people reading a sales letter for something they'd never be interested in.

    This whole thread is just another worthless long vs. short debate.

    If someone wants to create short and long versions of a sales letter to test on cold traffic and post the results here, I'd love to have THAT conversation.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      I found it interested that the owner of the #1 product on Clickbank says that long form sales letters don't work.

      Sure...

      That was HIS experience.

      And his opinion wasn't based on testing long copy against a shorter letter. He was building the case for video (PowerPoint... then a scribe/doodle presentation.)

      The fact is...

      Long copy letters ARE working for people who position them well.

      That won't ever change. Ever.

      But this whole conversation was started on the premise of people reading a sales letter for something they'd never be interested in.

      This whole thread is just another worthless long vs. short debate.

      If someone wants to create short and long versions of a sales letter to test on cold traffic and post the results here, I'd love to have THAT conversation.

      Mark
      Mark is definitely right on this one.

      Your sales letter is however long it needs to be to make the sale. If you're selling an expensive product or service, for example, you will probably need long copy to sell it. It's hard to sell a product that is $300 or more with one page of copy.

      But definitely test and find out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Some people do show a blind spot to the FORMAT of the long sales
    letter. So if they see a website with a long sales letter they don't
    even bother to read because their scam alert buzzer goes off.
    So you can try changing the FORMAT of the letter and see
    what happens. So don't use the normal red, big headlines and
    bullet point but make the writing 'casual', say like a blog post.

    Every form of advertising has it's saturation point and people
    are developing resistance to so many ad types, not just long
    form sales letters.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author AstonCopy
    I had this experience just a second ago, where I sent a long-form letter to a friend who balked at it. She was trying to DRIVE and read the letter at the same time.

    Doh.

    I thought she understood enough about what I was up to to help me. I was wrong. Chock it up to experience.

    Long form is all about getting people who are already convinced to...part with their money! You're doing it wrong if you have to evangelize. Keep the evangelizing to the pulpit and don't take the pulpit unless you're a preacher.
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