Anyone else find it weird about the copywriting forum....

59 replies
Just glancing at the forum today, I noticed something... and maybe it's been brought up.

But out of all the sub-forums here on the WF... the copywriting forum almost always, without exception, has the least visitors/viewers.

That's the way it is almost every day, any time of the day.

Why is that?

Could that possibly be why I'd venture to say that 80% of more of the people on the entire WF don't make a heck of a lot of money?

Maybe it's just me... but I'd think that anyone who is in online marketing would be more involved in the copy forums?

I just find it odd... how copy is a very important part of most online businesses... yet very few people stop by here?
#copywriting #find #forum #weird
  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

    I just find it odd... how copy is a very important part of most online businesses... yet very few people stop by here?
    But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
    (Matthew 7:14)

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    Ray,

    Amazing how you can find a passage that sums up perfectly what I was trying to say.

    And not just with this, but usually with everything you post... right on point, short, yet amazingly clear. Good stuff my friend!
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    • Profile picture of the author copyassassin
      most people are dreamers who do nothing.

      you only need copy if you are actually going to do something.

      and testing, crap, that's for the real high rollers.

      plus, learning to write copy takes time. more time than most peoples a.d.d. will allow.

      bottom line, this area is for people how ACTUALLY want to make money and will invest in what it takes to do it.

      If people really cared about making money, then Allen would have a "conversions" sub forum.

      I think "conversion optimization" is even more important.

      It tends to get left to the copywriter to do it.

      Real work is hard.

      Buying a $7 wso plugin for a wordpress theme....easy
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    • Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

      Ray,

      Amazing how you can find a passage that sums up perfectly what I was trying to say.

      And not just with this, but usually with everything you post... right on point, short, yet amazingly clear. Good stuff my friend!
      That's the sign of a great copywriter.

      Well done, Ray.

      Paul
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  • You see ebb and flow on every forum--they go through transitions-the copywriting forum was much more active a few years ago. It's the natural internet order.

    Members grow and get busy in their careers. Others get tired of the same themes repeated many times (e.g. short vs. long copy). Some burn out. Others fade away.

    Plus the summer is always slow.

    Some get tired of newbies asking for help, and then never taking any advice on board or making any changes at all.

    Or it was painfully obvious the newbie just wanted the forum to basically write the whole letter.

    The ones with real cajones do it several times. "Hey, guys, I'm back, you really helped me last time, and I STILL need some free copywriting, I mean help, on another letter."

    Then again, sometimes newbies would get painfully shredded immediately, "for their own good," like they were on a hot seat at an expensive marketing seminar. It's like junior high kids stepping into the NFL combine and taking hits. You never see them again.

    Despite all that, you are right--copywriting is critically important and rarely done well. This place should be busier than an IHOP after church on Sunday. It's where you really learn to get rich.

    P.S. Where be the ladies? We used to have more posting regularly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    It's always bothered me how under the radar the CW Forum is.

    I hate to say it, but when there's drama here, the views skyrocket.

    When the conversation is tempered, it can be like a ghost town.

    Ray nailed it.

    I try to post in the main section now - just to give a little copywriting flavor there (while not directly talking about it) and my posts either get deleted or moved here.

    But I agree...

    This sub-forum should be absolutely rockin' it 24/7.

    Maybe we should write a sales letter explaining the value of coming here on the daily.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      I try to post in the main section now - just to give a little copywriting flavor there (while not directly talking about it) and my posts either get deleted or moved here.
      I've had that happened a couple times as well. Once you are a copywriter
      your post in the main forum is always under suspect that it should be posted
      here instead. If you just mention the word copy your post get moved.

      I often think of copywriting as a necessary evil. Most marketers wish
      they didn't need to pay a copywriter. It's one of the services that you
      have to convince people that they need. Not like traffic or SEO, or
      webpage design.

      -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
    Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

    Just glancing at the forum today, I noticed something... and maybe it's been brought up.

    But out of all the sub-forums here on the WF... the copywriting forum almost always, without exception, has the least visitors/viewers.

    That's the way it is almost every day, any time of the day.

    Why is that?

    I just find it odd... how copy is a very important part of most online businesses... yet very few people stop by here?
    Why? You're putting too much importance on copy because you're a copy writer. Direct mail guru Ed Mayer, a ton of years ago, published his 40-40-20 rule for success in direct marketing (it applies to online too). Copy writing is in the 20% (along with graphic design and everything else) of that formula. Mayer knew most of the effort/importance was in the 80% (list and product/service).

    A few years ago copy writer James Sheridan "got it" and came up with his forex trading course. His product sold $40 million world-wide. It wasn't the copy that made him more money from a single piece than Makepeace has made in his best 10 years (writing many letters/magalogs) ... it was his product (40%) and the list (40% which Agora was a major player in providing).
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

      Why? You're putting too much importance on copy because you're a copy writer. Direct mail guru Ed Mayer, a ton of years ago, published his 40-40-20 rule for success in direct marketing (it applies to online too). Copy writing is in the 20% (along with graphic design and everything else) of that formula. Mayer knew most of the effort/importance was in the 80% (list and product/service).

      A few years ago copy writer James Sheridan "got it" and came up with his forex trading course. His product sold $40 million world-wide. It wasn't the copy that made him more money from a single piece than Makepeace has made in his best 10 years (writing many letters/magalogs) ... it was his product (40%) and the list (40% which Agora was a major player in providing).
      Subtle... I've been in all parts of the biz... own about 20 online businesses and believe me, I know copy is just a small part of the machine.

      in fact, the more I'm online, the more I realize copy is one of the smallest cogs in the wheel... and that the market/list and offer holds as much weight.

      And like Gary B. has said repeatedly... design/layout is the new headline... because of just how the copy LOOKS.

      I get it, I do. But it was just an observation... that compared to most parts of the forum, the copywriting one gets hardly any views.

      Compared to, like Adam said, 5,000 people trying to find the $7 magic pill in the WSO sections...
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

      A few years ago copy writer James Sheridan "got it" and came up with his forex trading course. His product sold $40 million world-wide. It wasn't the copy that made him more money from a single piece than Makepeace has made in his best 10 years (writing many letters/magalogs) ... it was his product (40%) and the list (40% which Agora was a major player in providing).
      It sold a lot more than that Subtle. That's less than what it did PER YEAR.
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      • Profile picture of the author AndrewCavanagh
        Originally Posted by wrcato2 View Post

        I have noticed a lot of marketers are switching from the traditional sales letter to video sales letters only. In my opinion it is a big mistake. I was on clickbank looking for a product that I could affiliate myself with and decided to write my own.

        Not all but most of the video sales letters are ok, but they are leaving a huge audience out. Like myself, I have limited bandwidth usage and video has to wait until 6AM unless I can download it.

        I am also partially deaf. Hard of hearing on one ear and totally deaf in the other. I need to turn my speaker all the way up and listen carefully on some of these video's what they are saying.

        Video is great for the hearing, but for the hearing impaired it really sucks.

        To create a great video sales letter you really need a great copywriter
        anyway.

        All those words that someone reads out have to be written by someone.

        I agree that many video sales letters are garbage, that video sales letters
        are now being overdone and that for many people they suck.

        I've never bought anything, ever from a video sales letter because there's
        no way I'm sitting through a 15-20 minute video before I buy something.

        Once I get to the part of a sales letter that reveals something I think
        has value to me I'm going straight to the first buy now button and
        buying.

        I'm sure others are the same.

        I think it's interesting that most of the marketers using video sales
        letters extensively aren't testing regular sales copy against their
        video sales letters.

        That could be a huge mistake.

        Kindest regards,
        Andrew Cavanagh
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    • Profile picture of the author Lance K
      Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

      Why? You're putting too much importance on copy because you're a copy writer. Direct mail guru Ed Mayer, a ton of years ago, published his 40-40-20 rule for success in direct marketing (it applies to online too). Copy writing is in the 20% (along with graphic design and everything else) of that formula. Mayer knew most of the effort/importance was in the 80% (list and product/service).

      A few years ago copy writer James Sheridan "got it" and came up with his forex trading course. His product sold $40 million world-wide. It wasn't the copy that made him more money from a single piece than Makepeace has made in his best 10 years (writing many letters/magalogs) ... it was his product (40%) and the list (40% which Agora was a major player in providing).
      A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen. --> Marketing Bullets | Bullet #19
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Despite all that, you are right--copywriting is critically important and rarely done well. This place should be busier than an IHOP after church on Sunday. It's where you really learn to get rich.

    P.S. Where be the ladies? We used to have more posting regularly.
    I for one took a bit of a break, between being busy and the same old things being constantly rehashed.

    That and I discovered apparently my looks have a factor in some hiring decisions via this board? Ugh.

    I lurk, but don't really say anything unless I have something to say.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post


      That and I discovered apparently my looks have a factor in some hiring decisions via this board? Ugh.
      If it helps differentiate you, why not?

      A handful of successful copywriters originally got noticed based solely on their prior association with Gary Halbert.

      Matthew Lesko (successful marketer of get-free-money-from-the-government books) wears a question mark suit.

      Me, I tell people all the time, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful". Embrace it. lol

      Alex
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
        Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

        Me, I tell people all the time, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful". Embrace it.
        The crab earring you wear (in your pic) does indeed make you look beautiful.
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      • Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post


        Me, I tell people all the time, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful". Embrace it. lol

        Alex
        I can't tell from your expression what you think of that crab. Is it, "Damn! Look at the size of this giant gosh dang crab!" or, "Man, all day we've been out here, and I only caught this little gosh dang crab!"
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        • Profile picture of the author wordwizard
          Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

          But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
          (Matthew 7:14)

          -Ray Edwards
          Love that quote, Ray! I think it sums it up perfectly.


          Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

          You see ebb and flow on every forum--they go through transitions-the copywriting forum was much more active a few years ago. It's the natural internet order.

          Members grow and get busy in their careers. Others get tired of the same themes repeated many times (e.g. short vs. long copy). Some burn out. Others fade away.

          Plus the summer is always slow.

          Some get tired of newbies asking for help, and then never taking any advice on board or making any changes at all.

          Or it was painfully obvious the newbie just wanted the forum to basically write the whole letter.

          The ones with real cajones would do it several times. "Hey, guys, I'm back, you really helped me last time, and I STILL need some free copywriting, I mean help, on another letter."

          Then again, sometimes newbies would get painfully shredded immediately, "for their own good," like they were on a hot seat at an expensive copywriting seminar. It's like junior high kids stepping into the NFL combine and taking hits. You never see them again.

          Despite all that, you are right--copywriting is critically important and rarely done well. This place should be busier than an IHOP after church on Sunday. It's where you really learn to get rich.

          P.S. Where be the ladies? We used to have more posting regularly.
          You're right on with there being ebb and flow and people getting busy. That's why I haven't been around much. Just working like crazy.

          About the low amount of traffic?

          In addition to all of the above, it might have to do with a couple of things...

          One - copywriting is challenging, and so at least SOME warriors might prefer an easier approach (see Ray's quote). And not all ways of making money require copywriting, so they might go for some of the alternatives.

          And when they do need copy, with videos and flashy graphics, as well as the occasional very low budget copywriting WSO, they may believe that they've found what they need, at least temporarily, and so they don't feel like they have to come over here to investigate further... At least not very often.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
          Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

          I can't tell from your expression what you think of that crab. Is it, "Damn! Look at the size of this giant gosh dang crab!" or, "Man, all day we've been out here, and I only caught this little gosh dang crab!"
          It was an extra large, steamed-to-perfection Maryland Blue Crab. Man, those things are delicious when prepared with the right seasoning!

          If the crab joints around here knew how much I enjoy 'em, they'd be sending me direct mail every day. :-)

          Alex
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      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

        If it helps differentiate you, why not?

        A handful of successful copywriters originally got noticed based solely on their prior association with Gary Halbert.

        Matthew Lesko (successful marketer of get-free-money-from-the-government books) wears a question mark suit.

        Me, I tell people all the time, "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful". Embrace it. lol

        Alex
        We can't all have crab earrings, Alex LOL.

        And Lorrie Morgan Ferrero has the red hair aspect on lock already.

        I think the only asset left look-wise is for me to set things on fire with my laser-beam gaze of death.
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        • Profile picture of the author Raydal
          Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

          And Lorrie Morgan Ferrero has the red hair aspect on lock already.

          I think the only asset left look-wise is for me to set things on fire with my laser-beam gaze of death.
          Don't forget Clayton Makepeace "The Redhead" (Wendy).
          I don't know who was first.

          -Ray Edwards
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        • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
          Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

          We can't all have crab earrings, Alex LOL.

          And Lorrie Morgan Ferrero has the red hair aspect on lock already.

          I think the only asset left look-wise is for me to set things on fire with my laser-beam gaze of death.
          Gee whiz, a guy tries to make a fashion statement with crab earrings... and all he gets around here is grief. lol

          Have you seen Leela Cosgrove's marketing? She's found a "non-conventional" way to get the attention of her market: Leela Cosgrove | Australia

          But I think Tina Lorenz is my favorite. Check out her page. It starts out with testimonials from John Carlton and Gary Bencivenga! Tina Lorenz Writes

          Alex
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  • People are interested in the result and not the process I guess.

    Not many top selling clickbank sales copy products...none actually.

    And to be fair, copy is the smallest part of the equation, although important.

    Having a hungry market and getting the message right to the market trumps sales copy tricks every time.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Another reason...

    In all the copywriting world, the sales letter writers seem to be the most egotistical. Seems they all want you to know how great they are at sales funnels, etc. In my opinion, they're also some of the least creative and imaginative.

    I read some of the posts by so called experts, and their lack of any real world business experience and lack of dealing with any large corporations shows in some of their posts. Sometimes I just sit back and chuckle at some of the stuff I read.

    You've got guys that are branding experts, yet they've never had clients that have spent millions on ad campaigns. Guys that are going to tell others how to increase business profits, when most they've ever did was read some books. LOL...maybe I'm just too old school...had someone tell me that on here once.

    Seems the new copywriters (at least on the forum) all start out with sales letters...couple years experience and a few bucks, they're suddenly experts. Big signatures...promises of big money...

    I still enjoy stopping by though. There's some great talent here buried in amongst it all.

    Have a lot of friends in the business/marketing/advertising world. Lots of them see the forum as a hang out for those who prey on the newbies, and those who fight over the scraps. I don't totally agree...it happens, but I know there's some things a person can learn. I've picked up some valuable things along the way.

    I seem to run in spurts with my interest.

    Use to like to stir up people more than I have lately. I've learned that when you're dealing with those who have very little business world experience, they get offended easily and will hold grudges forever.

    Oh well, interesting post Shawn.
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    • Profile picture of the author DavidG
      In the end, we all have mortgages.

      Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

      Another reason...

      In all the copywriting world, the sales letter writers seem to be the most egotistical. Seems they all want you to know how great they are at sales funnels, etc. In my opinion, they're also some of the least creative and imaginative.

      I read some of the posts by so called experts, and their lack of any real world business experience and lack of dealing with any large corporations shows in some of their posts. Sometimes I just sit back and chuckle at some of the stuff I read.

      You've got guys that are branding experts, yet they've never had clients that have spent millions on ad campaigns. Guys that are going to tell others how to increase business profits, when most they've ever did was read some books. LOL...maybe I'm just too old school...had someone tell me that on here once.

      Seems the new copywriters (at least on the forum) all start out with sales letters...couple years experience and a few bucks, they're suddenly experts. Big signatures...promises of big money...

      I still enjoy stopping by though. There's some great talent here buried in amongst it all.

      Have a lot of friends in the business/marketing/advertising world. Lots of them see the forum as a hang out for those who prey on the newbies, and those who fight over the scraps. I don't totally agree...it happens, but I know there's some things a person can learn. I've picked up some valuable things along the way.

      I seem to run in spurts with my interest.

      Use to like to stir up people more than I have lately. I've learned that when you're dealing with those who have very little business world experience, they get offended easily and will hold grudges forever.

      Oh well, interesting post Shawn.
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

    ... out of all the sub-forums here on the WF... the copywriting forum almost always, without exception, has the least visitors/viewers.

    That's the way it is almost every day, any time of the day.

    Why is that?

    Shawn,

    I'll be blunt...

    In my opinion, it's because the copywriting sub-forum is the least friendly place on the Warrior Forum.

    The egos often tend to spiral out of control here. After a while, all the infighting gets tiring.

    I'm always surprised at how much more friendly and helpful people in the other sub-forums can be.

    John
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Shawn,

      I'll be blunt...

      In my opinion, it's because the copywriting sub-forum is the least friendly place on the Warrior Forum.

      The egos often tend to spiral out of control here. After a while, all the infighting gets tiring.

      I'm always surprised at how much more friendly and helpful people in the other sub-forums can be.

      John
      John,

      I appreciate the viewpoint... in all honesty, I never even thought of that being one of the reasons.

      Egos? Copywriters? Never!!!
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    • Profile picture of the author ECTally
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Shawn,

      I'll be blunt...

      In my opinion, it's because the copywriting sub-forum is the least friendly place on the Warrior Forum.

      The egos often tend to spiral out of control here. After a while, all the infighting gets tiring.

      I'm always surprised at how much more friendly and helpful people in the other sub-forums can be.

      John
      Hit. Nail. Head.
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    • Profile picture of the author bizgrower
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Shawn,

      I'll be blunt...

      In my opinion, it's because the copywriting sub-forum is the least friendly place on the Warrior Forum.

      The egos often tend to spiral out of control here. After a while, all the infighting gets tiring.

      I'm always surprised at how much more friendly and helpful people in the other sub-forums can be.

      John
      Yes, it can get crabby around here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    I just checked out the stats. We beat Member Contests & Challenges
    they had 7 members viewing, we had more! Yeah! Maybe the appeal
    has gone out Shawn.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
      For a forum that supposed to be about copywriting, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of discussion about copy. That's what I find weird. The forum seems to consist mostly of requests for copy critiques. Maybe that's to be expected for such a black art as copywriting.

      I wish there were more in depth discussion about great salesletters, great VSL's, etc. Discussions about salesmanship in general would be nice, persuasion, new techniques. I love this stuff but I just feel like it isn't being discussed enough here. I mean, I know it is...I just want MOAR.

      Can someone get Bencivenga to sign up here? He's retired, right? He needs a new hobby -- posting on warriorforum. How about John Carlton? He isn't writing copy anymore, right? Any way he can sign up? Drop on by John, we need you. Hey Chris Haddad, mind posting a bit here? Come on man.

      Props to guys like Mark Pescetti, ewenmack, Raydal, joe golfer and of course Shawn Lebrun for contributing really good stuff. I've learned quite a bit from this forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason_V
        Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

        I wish there were more in depth...Discussions about salesmanship in general would be nice, persuasion, new techniques. I love this stuff but I just feel like it isn't being discussed enough here. I mean, I know it is...I just want MOAR.
        Go to the Offline forum for the part that I quoted in your post.

        There's a lot of value there doing exactly what I quoted you above as desiring.

        Offline Marketing Discussions
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  • As a newbie to this sub-forum, I can say that I didn't even know it was here until i was looking for a critique of my sales letter. If I had known, I would've come in before I wrote the darn thing. I always went to the main forum to look for advice or ask questions... I guess just a mixture of habit and lack of exploration on my part.

    BUT... now that I'm here I see how much value there is and what an impact copy can make.

    From those of us who ask for critiques, I give a heartfelt THANK YOU!!!

    ...come for the critique, stay for the knowledge, i guess!
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  • Profile picture of the author stallion1
    it might be because copywriting is underrated, it should be more emphasized in the IM circle.
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  • Profile picture of the author madison_avenue
    I think it's because it's boring, it's very slow moving with a low turnover of posts. And you get the same old people posting. There is are very few new people here, or if they do come, they don't like the atmosphere and quickly leave. Makes for a dull place.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    It's poorly positioned. If the sub-forum were headed "Where the money's made"...

    And then, of course, most of these morons don't know the difference between "copywriting" and "copyrighting".
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      It's poorly positioned. If the sub-forum were headed "Where the money's made"...

      And then, of course, most of these morons don't know the difference between "copywriting" and "copyrighting".
      Very true, but they do know this is where they come to get a sales copy written
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

        Very true, but they do know this is where they come to get a sales copy written
        That's an interesting question Shawn...do they REALLY know that? There's no doubt some do...but lately I'm discovering that TON of clarity is being lost in translation. When you marinate in this stuff all the time like we do, it's easy to assume that people "get it." But isn't that kind of assumption a common mistake in copywriting?


        If you put a copywriting ad up in the "Warriors for Hire" section, you'll see how many people contact you asking your rate for writing articles. How many of them don't fully understand the difference between writing and selling in print? A lot. I've learned this from my email conversions when I educate them on the difference. It's unsettling to think that the copywriting industry might be that poorly positioned.

        When people (even business owners) ask what I do and I say that I'm a copywriter, most of them instantly think I'm talking about CopyRIGHTING. It takes some education to explain what copywriting is. Even then, it takes explanation of the benefits for the light bulb to go off. Hell, the first time I heard about copywriting, I'd been doing it for several years...and it was still a light bulb moment for me.

        Frankly, I think our entire industry is poorly positioned. Even people who know it's about making sales still seem to only care about getting words written for their ads. I think this is one reason a lot of experts, who are actually copywriters by trade, are repositioning themselves as something else.

        I'm repositioning myself as a marketing coach right now and I've already noticed (at networking meetings) people's responses are much more positive. They instantly "get it." Then I tell them about my sales writing experience and adds a new dimension of value to my consulting expertise.

        I tried it for years the other way around, leading with "I'm a direct response copywriter," then trying to add value with the "I'm more than just a copywriter, I'm a marketing consultant..." But it's been much more effective the other way around. It would be interesting to start a thread on this and brainstorm some other ways to position the copywriting industry.
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    I can also speak from 13 plus years of experience as a copywriter... that this forum is pretty much a microcosm of just how it is in general.

    I've talked to well over 1,000 people on the phone over the last few years... mostly because of lead gen strategies I USED to do (free phone consult no more!)

    Anyways, it used to amaze me how many folks I'd talk to who would go on and on about how great their product was, how well it was written, the doctors they got to contribute to it, etc...

    and yet the marketing and copy? A mere afterthought.

    They were more focused on the ebook, the design, the web host, etc... stuff that pretty much didn't make a hell of a lot of difference.

    I can tell you about 10 prospects I had talks with... each of whom had spent $10,000 or more on product development, design, etc... yet they balked at the mere thought of investing $5,000 on copy.

    It's funny, I still remember hearing Bill Phillips mention this YEARS ago on an interview I had heard.

    He said something along the lines of "the money is in the marketing" and he had mentioned that in regards to his best selling Body for Life book!

    That alone has stayed with me over the years...
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    I have a theory about that.

    The copywriting forum is like one of those dirty, dark, scary biker bars. Bunch of rough neck wordsmiths hanging around shooting the @#^%. Occasionally, someone wanders in here asking us to critique something...and even when the copywriters play nice (which isn't always...ehem), the feedback reminds people of how far they have to go before they're ready to write their own copy. They stick their heads out to ask for help and pull back a bloody stump. So they hobble out of the bar, sew their heads back on and go off to the WSO section in search of a quicker, easier path to making money online. Then, a rough neck gang of copywriters (who cranked out a few dozen of the WSO sales pages) grabs the poor soul by the collar, reels them in, turns them upside down and shakes them until their last $200 falls out of their pockets.

    Check out the WSO section, I think I'm onto something lol.
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  • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
    Maybe we should all chip in and write a free WSO that sells people on hanging out in the copywriting forum lol.

    Come to the copywriting forum, we have cookies
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  • I like it here.

    But I can see why many don't.

    Very few know what copywriting is (it's not their fault - no one ever told them).

    And if they do...

    They don't "get" the value it brings (can't blame them, again no one really explained it).

    If I wasn't a copywriter and popped in for a visit I might think - "Wtf is all this about?"


    Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Jeffels
    I think it comes down to what you get into and have a passion for. Some people have a passion for social media, ppc, seo etc.

    When I first got into copywriting I was enthralled with it. I was consumed with learning how to craft a persuasive sales letter. When I wasn't watching copywriting dvd's I was listening to cd's.

    When I wasn't doing that I was absorbing the copywriting books by all the greats.

    That's my opinion. It's what your passion is.


    Bill


    .
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  • Profile picture of the author wrcato2
    I have noticed a lot of marketers are switching from the traditional sales letter to video sales letters only. In my opinion it is a big mistake. I was on clickbank looking for a product that I could affiliate myself with and decided to write my own.

    Not all but most of the video sales letters are ok, but they are leaving a huge audience out. Like myself, I have limited bandwidth usage and video has to wait until 6AM unless I can download it.

    I am also partially deaf. Hard of hearing on one ear and totally deaf in the other. I need to turn my speaker all the way up and listen carefully on some of these video's what they are saying.

    Video is great for the hearing, but for the hearing impaired it really sucks.

    With that said, many marketers probably believe that they can wing it without copy or write a cheesy script to read while videoing.

    Okay, forget about that small rant. I haven't been on the forum since July 20th, until today because I have been busy writing for clients. Now my schedule is open again. What I have found on some of the freelancing sites that people are looking for cheap writers.

    I bid on a 30 page sales letter and was rejected. I thought is was a low ball price $1,500 hmmm.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by wrcato2 View Post

      I have noticed a lot of marketers are switching from the traditional sales letter to video sales letters only. In my opinion it is a big mistake. I was on clickbank looking for a product that I could affiliate myself with and decided to write my own.

      Not all but most of the video sales letters are ok, but they are leaving a huge audience out. Like myself, I have limited bandwidth usage and video has to wait until 6AM unless I can download it.

      I am also partially deaf. Hard of hearing on one ear and totally deaf in the other. I need to turn my speaker all the way up and listen carefully on some of these video's what they are saying.

      Video is great for the hearing, but for the hearing impaired it really sucks.
      VSLs are out-performing traditional web sales letters significantly.

      Hopefully you're not letting your personal experience cloud your objectivity.

      Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Couldn't be that people feel this forum is inhabited by rabid dingoes ready to tear them to shreds at the drop of a semicolon? Nah... :rolleyes:
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    • Profile picture of the author Dennis Gaskill
      The reasons for the lack of an audience are many and varied, but many fall into one of two groups...

      Reputation: This sub-forum has a reputation for being a bit vicious and clannish. And for those who don't know of the ongoing drama between some of the regulars, the snark can be intimidating to say the least.

      Oblivious: I couldn't think of an accurate term to describe this so I just called it oblivious. It includes folks who don't know this sub-forum even exists, to those who don't realize how even a little bit of copywriting knowledge can help them.

      And of course, there are a great many wannabe marketers who are miles from away from a need for copywriting knowledge at this point in their journey. They're busy trying to figure out things like what an autoresponder is and how to trick Google into thinking spun articles deserve to be more than bird cage lining.
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    • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
      Originally Posted by travlinguy View Post

      Couldn't be that people feel this forum is inhabited by rabid dingoes ready to tear them to shreds at the drop of a semicolon? Nah... :rolleyes:
      lol, ya think?
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  • Profile picture of the author Pusateri
    Maybe it's because this place is boring. Very few outside the box thinkers. Too much "Well, Big Dick Copywriter says" bootlicking and too little speaking from personal experience.
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  • Profile picture of the author jazbo
    The bottom line is that writing, like mindset is not exciting and is basically ignored until it is too late.

    Far more exciting to throw all your time and cash at a wonderful site, throw tons of money and effort into traffic generation and then wonder why there are no conversions and give up.

    Get your mind right. Get your copy right. Then worry about the rest.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tijs
    Shawn, interesting subject you brought on. Besides from this forum being very specific, I do believe that (what already has been said), most people don't REALLY go for it.

    Lots of people are on the WSO and the general forum because they like to check out if this internet thing is something for them and if there are things to get easy money.

    In the end, you might compare it with a website that has lots of general visitors but not much buyers and a website with not a lot of visitors but the ones that are there are pretty serious about what they're doing.

    I just joined but I hope I can learn to write some good copy through this forum!
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  • Profile picture of the author Eliezer F
    Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

    Just glancing at the forum today, I noticed something... and maybe it's been brought up.

    But out of all the sub-forums here on the WF... the copywriting forum almost always, without exception, has the least visitors/viewers.

    That's the way it is almost every day, any time of the day.

    Why is that?

    Could that possibly be why I'd venture to say that 80% of more of the people on the entire WF don't make a heck of a lot of money?

    Maybe it's just me... but I'd think that anyone who is in online marketing would be more involved in the copy forums?

    I just find it odd... how copy is a very important part of most online businesses... yet very few people stop by here?
    Because it sounds boring -if they called it Professional Sales Writer you might get a different outcome
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  • Profile picture of the author AnneE
    My guess would be on the following.

    When I first joined WF, 5 years ago, a huge percent of money made online was from sales that happened on traditional sales pages. Now you've got people teaching how to make money via Facebook fan pages and posting an affiliate link to a product on Amazon. So I think a lot more people don't see the need to write a 'sales page'.

    Secondly, I agree that it's not uncommon to see rather rude responses in this sub-forum when people ask for help.

    Finally posting in copywriting section takes more thought and work. To write helpful comments on a sales page requires that I read not just the post, but the whole sales page. Phew.... and then I have to write something useful back, not just any old reply.

    In contrast, I can be up in the main section or the Mindset section and someone asks a question, "what's your favorite social network and why" or "do you get lonely working by yourself" and I can type a reply in about 3 minutes and move on. Given hard versus easy, most people choose easy!

    But hey.... if you are really desperate for posts and something to talk about, I could ask for a critique of my WSO.... do I dare?? I'm not sure.

    As for not having as many women.... yes, exactly, that's why you don't have as many NICE people -- ha ha...
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by AnneE View Post


      As for not having as many women.... yes, exactly, that's why you don't have as many NICE people -- ha ha...
      Meh, some of these dudes position themselves as big grizzly bears that are foaming at the mouth at the scent of blood, but they're more like teddy bears. Ain't that hard to hang here as a chick, my personal opinion.
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

        Meh, some of these dudes position themselves as big grizzly bears that are foaming at the mouth at the scent of blood, but they're more like teddy bears. Ain't that hard to hang here as a chick, my personal opinion.
        lol, I agree. I think the aggression has a lot more to do with this being a virtual environment. If this were a gym (fully equipped with a boxing ring and MMA fighting cage), where mere word battles could lead to boxing matches or cage matches people would be much more polite to one another.

        -Best,

        Seth "Future Founder of Fight Club for Copywriters" Czerepak
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    I remember talking with Mark Andrews on Skype a while back and asked what would be a better name for copywriters.

    He put up a thread about it.

    It's a funny thing...

    Regular, everyday people - who don't have a ton of IM awareness don't know what copywriters are.

    Whose fault is that?

    Answer: Copywriters.

    You'd think copywriters would have made the word that describes their profession as buzz worthy and pop-culture-primed as anything under the sun.

    But no.

    On Adwords...

    I get far more qualified clients on the keywords sales writer, marketing writer or advertising writer than freelance copywriter, copywriter, sales copywriter, etc.

    The bottom line is...

    More people don't know what copywriting is... than do.

    Again...

    Whose fault is that?

    As for the popularity of the forum.

    Tons of positioning going on in here.

    And what else would you expect?

    Were fcuking copywriters.

    It's ingrained in our DNA.

    Mark
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