Am I an idiot, or am I an idiot?

17 replies
You're free to just say, "you are an idiot" and leave, but I'd also ask for some advice.

I've been stuck in the mud, like a baby piglet in quicksand for 2 weeks on this project. I even think the internet marketers want to give up on me.

The client is a man with excellent credentials, his product is an online Forex trading course. Having over 35 years of experience, this man is all quality and no hype. He serves in an official capacity as a resident trainer of an academy affiliated with a major stock exchange. His primary occupation is to train professional traders and stock brokers so they can make money on financial markets.

That's makes him pretty awesome, doesn't it? Unlike most Forex trading course trainers, he actually has quality. Problem is, the internet marketers want me to hype it to the max until it spills over like a boiling pot. That's how they're used to selling this kind of product.

The job is a sales landing page. The format the internet marketers liked the most (although I refused to use because I suggested it as a joke, also I think it'd make people read but not make people buy since it sets the wrong mood) was a lame hype copy that went something like this:
____
William Shakespeare (obviously a fake name) wants to show you how successful he is from trading Forex...But you must promise not to rob him!!!


Blah blah blah
Hype hype hype

Ready? See for yourself!

Blah blah blah
[account statement]

Wow! $XXX in (XXX timing)! XXX% of returns in just XXX time!

____
And so on. I didn't use this copy and tried to write from the angle of providing them with a way to make more money based on their situations. I don't think it's very compelling.

Help. I'm dying.

Or send kittens.

Mostly just help.

Thank you.

Edit: I've already written it about 7 or 8 times. As a person, I find it quite difficult to lie. You may consider that a flaw in character for this occupation but I just can't bullshit very well. Please save me.
#idiot
  • Profile picture of the author Auxi
    This sounds like serious philosopical issue :p
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    • Profile picture of the author dotdash
      I think there's an issue with IM and the trading niche. People think they can just lift and shift get rich quick approach from IM and apply it to FX. I'm sure it works in the short term but for a sustainable business it's not that effective.

      From my experience the target customer is not stupid, they have very low tolerence for BS hypey sales and marketing and are very skeptical of anyone selling anything.

      It depends on who you are targeting as a customer. If you are going after the magic pill customer who buys shiny objects looking for the "secret shortcut" then the typical IM GRQ approach will work for selling robots and signals.

      If you want more serious and seasoned traders who are looking to invest in something credible and useful that will also involve some work on their part (which they're prepared to do) then the last thing you want to send them to is a typical hypey clickbank sales page by way of an aggressive 'in your face' OTO/upsell funnel.

      Who is your target customer and what specific problems do they want solved? How does your client deliver on fixing their problem and helping them achieve their goals?

      Real traders don't believe rediculous claims of the get rich quick sizzle and are looking for consistent results with low risk. I'm building my offer (trading psychology and discipline product) around solid, low risk and stress free and consistent results. Serious traders who've been around the block and beaten up enough times want that. I'm not interested in the muppets even if they buy shiny object after shiny object.

      Some things you can try are:

      1. Go to some genuine review sites, I recommend Forex Peace Army and have a look at the products that have good feedback and reviews. Then look at their sales messages.

      2. If you haven't already have a look at "Autoresponder madness" which has really good info on researching and creating customer avatars. You can get this part by signing up for the free list building course.

      3. Build some customer avatars and focus your copy around them.

      4. Look at some successful big names in FX training, see how they speak to their prospects.

      I truly believe that hype and "proof" (that IM people will tell you is necessary which all GRQ pages have and none of the genuinely successful traders publish for good reasons) are things to steer clear of if you want to build a solid FX info business that cares about helping serious traders get real results.

      GL
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      • Profile picture of the author maark
        Originally Posted by dotdash View Post


        I truly believe that hype and "proof" (that IM people will tell you is necessary which all GRQ pages have and none of the genuinely successful traders publish for good reasons) are things to steer clear of if you want to build a solid FX info business that cares about helping serious traders get real results.

        GL
        Well said.
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    • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
      Maybe you can play with that for your hook.

      "No Way In Hell... "
      - Why the Heck I Refused to 'Hype' The Latest Trading Program from this 35-Year Forex Veteran...

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      Scary good...
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  • Profile picture of the author james kirk
    You can sell without being "salesy". How much data do you have about the list?
    Signature

    To your success!

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    • Profile picture of the author LeeAshen
      Thanks so much for the detailed replies and advice, guys. Especially dotdash.

      The original copy I wrote was a piece focused on credibility. You see, the client is a credible guy. He isn't a BS guy, and also even his video course which will feature his voice will be stable and, you know, credible. After all, he is a trainer of professional traders and stock brokers.

      He had written a book about trading, and it was published by Wiley Trading (which, to my knowledge is the top publisher of good trading books, they don't just publish anything) and the book got very good reviews on Amazon, so it shouldn't be so hard to sell this guy.

      But basically, my copies were rejected repeatedly for not having enough hype. 2-3000 words each copies were being rejected and rewritten like that. It really hurt, and it really took very long to rewrite a completely original version from scratch each time. I also grew increasingly jaded and began performing more and more poorly.

      To answer the question about the list, I tried to probe and I couldn't get much but the general idea is 30-40k beginner traders or people interested in picking up trading.

      The product is a comprehensive course which covers Technical Analysis and Martial Arts philosophies in trading, in line with the book he had written and published. That to me is his USP, he should be the only trainer who offers a course which is based on TA and martial artist's mindset. The book was rated very well (4.9/5 stars on Amazon overall), so I assume his course will be good too.

      Edit: Oh the client likes my copy, the problem is I'm working under the internet marketers for this project and they say I don't agitate the need enough for it to sell. I can tell they don't really have much of a marketing background, but I am inclined to agree that it doesn't agitate the need enough.

      But I really don't know how to put it in a way that agitates the need without sounding like a stupid, stupid, STUPID screaming sales letter. LEARN THESE METHODS NOW, AND SEE YOUR LIFE CHANGE FOREVER!!!

      They really like it that way. I.. I can't. It's hideous.
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    1. They may not be much as marketers, but you don't understand the market. And that's why you struggle. You're not speaking their language.

    2. My opinion? You've got the perfect product and you're f@cking it up.

    With this product in hand, it's like being a Top 10 ranked UFC cage fighter pitted against a bunch of white belts. With this product in hand, you'll DOMINATE whatever market you choose to enter.

    In fact, FOREX becomes your octagon.

    You simply must own this product to make money. No two ways about it. You must arm yourself, train yourself to win in FOREX. This book shows you how. It's like your own personal UFC coach/trainer in your corner.

    It's simple: Get this product and you own the market.

    "Welcome to MY octagon, boys... take a number."

    ----

    Hopefully, this will give you some imagery to play with. Without it sounding hypey.

    - Rick Duris

    PS: Watch some particularly brutal MMA videos to get in the mood. Stuff with blood and legs being broken.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeAshen
    Hmm, ok. Thanks. I do watch MMA but I never thought of it that way.
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    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Forex trading is like every other niche. Buyers respond to sales copy written in a certain tone and with certain terminology. And they have certain buying emotions.

      You need to learn all three.

      And then write your copy similarly.

      Alex
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeAshen
    That's all excellent advice, thanks everyone. I'll be sure to contribute and help other people in future too.

    I've finished writing the copy. Rick gave me some ideas in the end although the martial arts in this product is completely different from MMA, it's focused on serenity and harmony instead of attack. If you're a fight fan, you know which one.

    "No Way In Hell... "
    - Why the Heck I Refused to 'Hype' The Latest Trading Program from this 35-Year Forex Veteran...

    This is great headline, I'll may just steal it for something in the future
    Reminds me of Joe Sugarman.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeAshen
    Wow. I wrote this copy 11 times. I've never had to do that before. Holy crap. That's disgusting. Maybe I'll reject jobs from this industry in the future.
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  • Profile picture of the author ECTally
    Here's a thought, Lee. Which demographic is the copy aimed at?

    Seasoned Forex professionals, cold organic traffic, or just those from the marketer's mailing list?

    This could be a very important factor, and could explain the resistance from the IMers, who know from experience the copy that works best with their list. For cold organic traffic, consider spending some time analyzing the keyword ideas from Google Keyword Tool. You can actually form a rough model of the likely user based on the data.

    Having said that, give yourself a little pat on the back for caring about the product enough that you are resisting the direct input of your immediate employer. However, do not paint yourself into a corner. Leave enough room to change your position without losing any credibility.

    Oh, and if you eventually manage to create a reasonable level of doubt in the mind of the IMers, suggest a split testing on two sets of copy.
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    • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
      Originally Posted by ECTally View Post

      Here’s a thought, Lee. Which demographic is the copy aimed at?

      Seasoned Forex professionals, cold organic traffic, or just those from the marketer’s mailing list?

      This could be a very important factor, and could explain the resistance from the IMers, who know from experience the copy that works best with their list.
      Great question. IMHO, this is another example of IMers assuming that the copy which works for the IM niche AND the typical IM demographic must work for other niches too. Epic mistake. The reality (outside the bubble of the IM and biz opp world) is that you've got the two general types of readers:

      1) Problem solvers: these are security focused people. Sociological studies over the past 4 years have revealed that between 60 and 70% of the population are problem solvers.
      2) Opportunity seekers: these are excitement focused people. Hype works better on them, just check out the WSO section. Most of what you see there is written for opportunity seekers. Same with the biz opp and MLM niches.

      You can NOT talk to both types the same way, and in the FX niche, you've got both types, depending on the offer being promoted, the list, the traffic. You need to find out which type you're dealing with. If you talk to a problem solver like you would an opportunity seeker, all they'll see is phony hype. On the other hand, if you talk to an opportunity seeker like you would a problem solver and you'll bore them to death.

      IMers (who represent the second type) tend to think that everyone else thinks like they do. But unless you're in a niche that targets opportunity seekers, problem solvers and security minded-people are the majority.

      I'd advise ignoring the IMers on this and going with your intuition and following the client's wisdom and experience coupled with what you know about human beings when they're seeking security and the solution to a problem BEFORE looking for excitement and opportunity (which you can address near the CTA).

      Best,
      Seth "Those who are good with hammers think everything is a nail" Czerepak
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeAshen
    No info on demographic, extensively probing only showed that they are people who opted in for trading newsletters and such.

    IMs assume that they are majority beginner traders or people interested in learning how to trade.

    Testing was one of the first thing I recommended. "No resources' was the reply. I have my own thoughts on that as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author LeeAshen
    12 copies total. They can choose. I don't care any more!! Raaaahhhh!
    Thanks so much guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Hope you learned from this.

    You have no idea where their traffic is coming from, what their market is, or who you're selling to.

    Easy "newbie" mistake to make.

    There are 2 main types of FX traders...

    1) The guys who are serious and treat it as a biz, and

    2) The people who are basically looking for a "magic pill" to take away all their money problems.

    If you don't even know which of them you're targeting it's obvious you haven't done your research.

    So as much as I think your approach could have worked... you still gotta own this one.

    -Daniel
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    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

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    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

      Hope you learned from this.

      You have no idea where their traffic is coming from, what their market is, or who you're selling to.

      Easy "newbie" mistake to make.

      There are 2 main types of FX traders...

      1) The guys who are serious and treat it as a biz, and

      2) The people who are basically looking for a "magic pill" to take away all their money problems.

      If you don't even know which of them you're targeting it's obvious you haven't done your research.

      So as much as I think your approach could have worked... you still gotta own this one.

      -Daniel
      Game. Set. Match.

      Couldn't have said it better myself. At the end of the day, it's always on the copywriter to nail down their own research.

      Daniel is one of the most successful Forex copywriters I've come across to date. So he's giving you some great advice based on his experiences in the niche. I'd encourage you to listen to him.

      Good luck,

      Mike
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