Offer/copy/list ratio --- HELP PLEASE!

BrianMcLeod

11 years ago

40 List
40 Offer
20 Copy

...is what I see posted over and over.

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Brian McLeod

Direct Response Copywriting

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The Copy Nazi Banned 11 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

40 List
40 Offer
20 Copy

...is what I see posted over and over.

No dude, you're wrong. The copy is far and away the most important thing. It is. Really. I think. Maybe. Oh alright...
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Mr. Subtle 11 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

40 List
40 Offer
20 Copy

...is what I see posted over and over.

The 20% isn't just copy... it's everything else like layout, design, etc.

To the NOOBs: Offer is not referring to copy. It's the product/service you are offering.
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Ross Bowring

11 years ago

Thank you Brian and Mal!

--- Ross

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 11 years ago

Whose butt do they pull these percentages out of anyway? It's like the old "90% of internet marketers fail" thing.

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Alex Cohen

11 years ago

Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi

Whose butt do they pull these percentages out of anyway? It's like the old "90% of internet marketers fail" thing.

Grandma taught it, so people bought it.

All three are needed.

Wanna slice and dice? Get a Veg-O-Matic.

Alex

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

All three are needed.

Well duh! : ) But that doesn't answer the OP's "importance ratio" question.

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Alex Cohen

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Well duh! : ) But that doesn't answer the OP's "importance ratio" question.

Yep... I wasn't trying to. :-)

I was agreeing with Copy Nazi's implication that the answer is subjective.

In my opinion, attempting to determine the percentages is a useless exercise.

Alex

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Mr. Subtle 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

I was agreeing with Copy Nazi's implication that the answer is subjective.

In my opinion, attempting to determine the percentages is a useless exercise.

I disagree. It's a fun exercise because of ....

how copywriters view their importanceE

: )
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- Alex Cohen 11 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle
  
  I disagree. It's a fun exercise because of ....
  
  how copywriters view their importanceE
  
  : )
  
  During the Viet Nam era, I spent time around fighter pilots. Thankfully that experience conditioned me to dealing with massive egos. LOL
  
  Alex
  
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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Isn't asking a bunch of copywriters what's the sales copy ratio like asking a bunch of insurance agents what types of insurance you need?

Here's my take on the "proper" ratio...

40% Properly Targeted List
40% Compelling Offer
20% Sales Copy. This includes any graphic/video/layouts needed to compliment or enhance the sales copy.

Hope that helps,

Mike

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Isn't asking a bunch of copywriters what's the sales copy ratio like asking a bunch of insurance agents what types of insurance you need?

Here's my take on the "proper" ratio...

40% Properly Targeted List
40% Compelling Offer
20% Sales Copy. This includes any graphic/video/layouts needed to compliment or enhance the sales copy.

Why does the company/product/service have to be "compelling?" Some of the largest users of direct mail in the world are insurance companies. Not sure the words compelling and insurance could ever be used together.

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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Why does the company/product/service have to be "compelling?" Some of the largest users of direct mail in the world are insurance companies. Not sure the words compelling and insurance could ever be used together.

Three counter points Subtle...

1. A good number of types of insurance (automobile, PMI/home mortgage, commercial property) are required by law. It's the real-life version of forced continuity: Buy insurance... or else you'll be put in jail. Or just as bad, have insurance or you can could have your pants sued off you if you don't have it in place (i.e. homeowners insurance, commercial property insurance).

2. The word compelling is subjective. For an insurance, compelling can be as underwhelming as Geico's "save hundreds of dollars each year" annual pitch.

For the majority of businesses, they need something with a lot more teeth than "we're cheaper" to attach to their offer.

3. Insurance companies are some of the biggest companies in the world. Berkshire Hathaway started out as an insurance company and Buffett expanded their holdings in a variety of other industries. If they're doing direct mail, it's probably to cover all of avenues of customer acquisition. It doesn't mean they're doing it in a direct response marketing fashion like 99% of us talk about on this forum.

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

1. A good number of types of insurance (automobile, PMI/home mortgage, commercial property) are required by law.

You brought up insurance so i used it in my example, but you still haven't answered the question:

Why does a company/product/service (aka offer) have to be compelling in order to succeed (in direct mail... where the 40-40-20 originated)?

"Save hundreds of dollars each year" is not the offer (40) in the 40-40-20 formula, it goes in the "everything else" (20) category (copy, layout design, etc).

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RickDuris

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Why does a company/product/service (aka offer) have to be compelling in order to succeed (in direct mail... where the 40-40-20 originated)?.

The answer is it doesn't have to be compelling. Nor does it have to be irresistible, provocative, enticing, etc.

It just has to be specific, so it can be measured against other offers to see what converts best.

- Rick Duris

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

The answer is it doesn't have to be compelling. Nor does it have to be irresistible, provocative, enticing, etc.

It just has to be specific, so it can be measured against other offers to see what converts best.

Offer in the 40-40-20 rule has NOTHING to do with copy.

One more time... OFFER in the 40-40-20 rule is about the company and the product and or service they are OFFERing.

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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

You brought up insurance so i used it in my example, but you still haven't answered the question:

Why does a company/product/service (aka offer) have to be compelling in order to succeed (in direct mail... where the 40-40-20 originated)?

If you're trying to maximize the effect of the offer, then you should want to make the offer as compelling as possible.

Any top-notch copywriter pays attention to more than just the copy because any shortcomings in the target market/list selection and/or the offer can create a lower response rate from the copy.

For example, a well-known client of mine took a salesletter I wrote several years ago from averaging 4% and flat-lined it by quadrupling the price after getting some bad business advice from his mastermind group. In other words, he took a compelling offer for his product and made it unattractive simply by raising the price for the product higher than his target prospects were willing to pay.

"Save hundreds of dollars each year" is not the offer (40) in the 40-40-20 formula, it goes in the "everything else" (20) category (copy, layout design, etc).

By law, they can't charge people for getting an insurance quote so mentioning a free insurance quote is not an offer... it's a standard practice of the entire insurance industry.

In GEICO's case, their USP also doubles as their standing offer: "Save hundreds of dollars each year."

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

If you're trying to maximize the effect of the offer, then you should want to make the offer as compelling as possible.

Offer in the 40-40-20 rule has NOTHING to do with copy.

One more time... OFFER in the 40-40-20 rule is about the company and the product and or service they are OFFERing.

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OutOfThisWord 11 years ago

I thought part of the 20% was also the customer service experience, as I started in the days of toll-free numbers.

And I thought to construct a good offer, you needed good copy.

No matter what ratios are anointed, the big players are list and offer.

Warren Buffett advised investors to seek a company with a product so good an idiot could run the company, in case one day one would.
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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Offer in the 40-40-20 rule has NOTHING to do with copy.

One more time... OFFER in the 40-40-20 rule is about the company and the product and or service they are OFFERing.

The offer is more than just the company, product/service. The offer is what the prospect will gain once they commit to buying.

In terms of your comment that the offer has NOTHING to do with the copy...

Let me ask you a question.

How do you make the offer?

Through magical tea leaves?

Through the Psychic Network?

Like it or not, the offer is delivered through the copy. It doesn't matter what media or format the copy is in... video, audio, text, graphics. The offer is delivered to the targeted prospect using copy. The offer and the copy work hand-in-hand to turn the correctly targeted prospects (aka the list) into buyers.

As for what you're claiming I said...

Read what I wrote. I said my client changed the offer with existing sales copy and the conversion rate dropped.

In other words...

Salesletter#1 + Offer #1 = 4%

Salesletter#1 + Offer #2 (400% higher than Offer #1) = 0%

The only difference between what I created for my client was the OFFER... and his higher-priced offer caused a drop in his sales.

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RickDuris

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Offer in the 40-40-20 rule has NOTHING to do with copy.

One more time... OFFER in the 40-40-20 rule is about the company and the product and or service they are OFFERing.

Sheesh. Did I say an offer had ANYTHING to do with copy?

No. I said it had to be SPECIFIC. It's why I said adjectives like 'compelling' are irrelevant.

Rather than deal with vagaries, here's a recent example:

Two companies offer backflow testing services via direct mail. It's the IDENTICAL service in nature and in performance.

Company #1 provides the service for a reasonable, fixed price.

Company #2 provides the same service for significantly more.

The difference between the two companies (besides price)?

Their offer. Company #2 guarantees the customer will pass the test. In other words, they're not selling backflow testing, they're guaranteeing a passed test.

Same service, two very different offers.

REGARDLESS OF COPY USED, which OFFER will convert better?

Let's keep going...

A marketing guru is about to conduct a big, expensive 500-person seminar. At the same time, he's also launching his most ambitious info-product to date.

So let's see, what are his OFFER options?

Well, he could promote each separately in separate offers/campaigns.

Or he could promote the seminar, with the info-product as a bonus.

Or he could flip it, and promote the info-product with the seminar as a bonus.

Again, it's the same marketing guru, same products. Which offer will convert better?

And again, none of this has anything to do with the ARTICULATION of the offer, meaning the copy.

I could go on, if you want, Subtle. Or we can nitpick these examples if you wish.

My point is, the offer is not the copy, but it's not just about the product and company. It's how one puts the pieces of the offer together.

There are lots of options.

- Rick Duris

PS: Again, an offer has to be SPECIFIC. CLEAR. STRUCTURED. So you can compare different offers against each other and see what converts best.

PPS: There are literally dozens of ways a company can offer a product/service. I did a little bit of digging and came up with:

99 Proven Direct Response Offers | Response Capture

There's definitely more than this though. Anyone who has built or optimized online sales funnels, knows for instance, just changing the order of the upsells (i.e. individual offers) after the frontend sale can have a dramatic impact on revenue.

In that case, it's the same copy, same list, same offers, just a different offer sequence.

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Sheesh. Did I say an offer had ANYTHING to do with copy?

Yeah, you did...

Originally Posted by RickDuris

The answer is it doesn't have to be compelling. Nor does it have to be irresistible, provocative, enticing, etc.

It just has to be specific, so it can be measured against other offers to see what converts best.

How do you measure a company's product/service against other "offers to see what converts best?" Yeah, you're talking copy.

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RickDuris

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Yeah, you did...

How do you measure a company's product/service against other "offers to see what converts best?" Yeah, you're talking copy.

No. I'm not. Let me put it another way.

Occasionally I put together deals. To me, putting together an offer is very much like deal making. There are deal points.

As a deal is being negotiated, some deal points are added, changed and deleted.

Now you may say that, "Well, there are words used in the deal points that sell the deal. That's copy."

Perhaps. But it would be very poor copy. There's no romance to it.

And those same words are used in the deal's legal contract. Are you saying a legal contract is copy or has elements of copy as well?

That would also be an interesting premise.

Regardless, if you're debating this kind of stuff, you're missing the big takeaway about offers.

Offers are like diamonds. They can have many different facets. To me, the offer is the diamond and the copy is the setting, the black velvet mat and the pinpoint Halogen lighting.

A slight shift in lighting can make all the difference. But a change in lighting does not change the diamond. Just one's perception of it.

Subtle, I'm talking about two different things. Offers. And copy.

I hope that's clearer now.

- Rick Duris

PS: Just saw your graphic. Is that your point? That a product or service is part of an offer?

Of course. No quarrel there at all.

And if you want to lump offer points into the copy 20%, feel free to do that, too. Just don't say I am advocating that. Why? Because offer points are too important to be put into the 20%.

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

PS: Just saw your graphic. Is that your point? That a product or service is part of an offer?

Part? Company product and/or service is the offer (40%). There are NO copy elements... headline, deck copy, subheads, bullets/fascinations, P.S.s, offer, etc in the 40%.

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RickDuris

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Part? Company product and/or service is the offer (40%)..

Yes. Part.

The offer is NOT just the product or service.

Think about it, Subtle. Why wouldn't marketers just come out and say "40% is the company's product or service"? Why would they complicate the matter by saying "40% is the offer"?

Obviously because the offer is more than just the product or service. It includes the pricing, financing, risk reversal, stuff like that.

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

There are NO copy elements... headline, deck copy, subheads, bullets/fascinations, P.S.s, offer, etc in the 40%.

I agree X10. No argument here.

- Rick Duris

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Think about it, Subtle. Why wouldn't marketers just come out and say "40% is the company's product or service"? Why would they complicate the matter by saying "40% is the offer"?

They did. Look at the graphic I posted earlier ... "40% to who the mailer is" (the company) and "what he has to offer" (product/service). You can't take the product/service out of a direct mail equation.

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RickDuris

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

They did. Look at the graphic I posted earlier ... "40% to who the mailer is" (the company) and "what he has to offer" (product/service). You can't take the product/service out of a direct mail equation.

Who said the product/service should be taken out of the direct mail equation? Not I.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

- Rick Duris

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by RickDuris

Obviously because the offer is more than just the product or service. It includes the pricing, financing, risk reversal, stuff like that.

Company: Hyundai

Product: Car, Model - Accent

Risk reversal is a copy element - Drive it for 30 days and if you aren't happy with it will buy it back at the price you paid for it.

Financing is a copy element - Zero down at signing and 1% interest for 60 months.

You're making things way more complicated than they should be. If it's not the product or service the company is selling then it goes in the everything else category (20%).

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Robert_Rand 11 years ago

[QUOTE=Mr. Subtle;8473262]

Financing is a copy element - Zero down at signing and 1% interest for 60 months.

/QUOTE]

Financing is an offer element; it's modifying how the product is offered, not presented.

Do you think "Free Trial" is also a copy element?
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MikeHumphreys

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Company: Hyundai

Product: Car, Model - Accent

Risk reversal is a copy element - Drive it for 30 days and if you aren't happy with it will buy it back at the price you paid for it.

Financing is a copy element - Zero down at signing and 1% interest for 60 months.

You're making things way more complicated than they should be. If it's not the product or service the company is selling then it goes in the everything else category (20%).

Financing is not a copy element. It's part of the company's terms for buying the product and therefore is part of the offer.

What you've given us above is a product description. There's nothing stated or implied that could be construed as the offer.

If you think "Hyundai. Product: Car, Model - Accent", then it's just a thought. Until you use words -- spoken or text -- it's just a thought that is only heard by you.

No one knows if you're thinking of a car because it ran over your dog... if it's something you're thinking about buying for yourself or another family member... or even if you're wanting someone else to buy it.

Until your thought is expressed in words -- spoken or text -- it's not an offer because no one knows what you're thinking. So my point about copy being the delivery mechanism for the offer is accurate.

If you want to be a Flowbee loving guy who likes being a "marketing historian", then you can make your offer strictly "Hyundai Product: Car, Model - Accent". I hope you have millions of dollars to sink into advertising to repeatedly pummel people with "Hyundai Product: Car, Model - Accent" and hope your marketing stuck with them after they toss it into the nearest trashcan or change the TV channel.

But if you don't have millions to waste... then you have to look at what works TODAY and that's looking at more than the front face of the offer.

As Rick said in his analogy, you have to look at the offer like it's a multi-faceted diamond and test ways to make the offer more enticing through things like payment terms, financing, guarantees, and so on.

You can argue semantics all day long about whether financing, etc is part of the offer or not but you're one of the first people to rip brand advertising when you see it. I've seen your toons ripping brand advertising as far back as when Fortin's board was the go-to place for top marketers and copywriters to hang out.

I'm surprised you said this earlier in this thread:

How do you measure a company's product/service against other "offers to see what converts best?" Yeah, you're talking copy.

I'm surprised because with your background of owning a print shop for a lot of years, I assumed you'd remember things like an A/B split test mailing where a company would mail two different versions of the same piece to equal portions of the same mailing list. With an A/B split test, you can test different offers with the same exact sales copy -- like two different product prices -- which are key coded for tracking purposes.

Online, it's A LOT easier to split-test an offer. Any multivariate software (including Google's free tool) or even a page rotator script can do it. Each spot that the offer is made on the page is rotated by the script/software so that the prospect viewing the page sees the same offer at all spots on the page. And thanks to tracking cookies, they would see the same exact offer again if they came back to the website at a later time too.

Here's one with a fairly good explanation on the process. It's not mine and I have no affiliation with the company. I turned it up by typing "how to split test an offer" in Google:

Offer Split Testing

My 3 cents,

Mike

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Steve Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Risk reversal is a copy element - Drive it for 30 days and if you aren't happy with it will buy it back at the price you paid for it.

Financing is a copy element - Zero down at signing and 1% interest for 60 months.

I'm surprised at this statement, and was wondering about the reasoning behind it.

From my perspective, these might seem like copy elements because the public is informed about these details in the sales copy, but it's a corporate decision (and thus part of the behind-the-scenes offer), is it not?

"0% financing for 60 months" campaigns, "$7500 cash back for Labor Day" and so on... corporate decides that stuff, not creative, right?

Creative just says "Yes sir, boss, we'll have those ad changes ready by next week." They could spin this 100 different ways in creative, but it's still just presenting the actual boring offer details that corporate told them to sell this week.

Since the corporate masters decide the details of their current campaign to sell those vehicles (or frozen pizzas, or cruises, or whatever), then creative is just the hunchback that follows orders and presents those details in the most appealing ways possible... right?

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Steve Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Part? Company product and/or service is the offer (40%). There are NO copy elements... headline, deck copy, subheads, bullets/fascinations, P.S.s, offer, etc in the 40%.

Ok, I did some more research on this, and found some interesting information.

First, let me try to state Ed Mayer's "40/40/20 Rule" in his own terms. As closely as I can determine, it was originally specified as:

40 percent audience
40 percent offer
20 percent creative

The audience can be anywhere, not just a list, but the arguments in this thread seem to revolve around the definition of the "offer."

Rick contends that the offer is the whole enchilada (company, product, financing, risk reversal, guarantee, special bonuses that will be included, upsells, etc.). As he said, it's like a diamond with many facets. Each is unique, and can be presented in different ways by the creative 20%.

Clearly, if we have one company offering multiple products (or even a single product over time), part of the offers are largely static (the company, their reputation, their level of service, etc.), while the rest changes with the variable details of different products or promotions.

Mr. Subtle's argument is that the presentation of the offer fits into the creative category. The presentation could go on a billboard, in an envelope, on a post card, on the radio, on a web page, or just about anywhere. But that's not the offer itself, it's just the presentation of the offer.

But the offer is not just the company and the product. It's what happens when there is a company with a product to sell, and they all get together and say "Ok, how the hell can we make this thing sell? What can we offer that will make the buyers drool over this thing? What if we offer this, that, and something else as bonuses? What if we offer so much extra crap they can't possibly resist? What if we make this fabulous guarantee? Can we offer so much crap we're selling at a loss on the front end, but can make it up on the back end? What's the best deal we can possibly make to grab market share and sell this warehouse full of X?" That's the offer.

Hey, it works for infomercials. Ginsu knives, anyone? Anyway, they decide what the best thing they can afford to do is, then send it off to creative where they put lipstick on that pig and make it fly. Right?

So, it looks like both are right (and Mike H too), assuming the details of the offer are differentiated from the presentation of the offer (the sales copy, or creative delivery of said offer).

Carrying the logic a step further, a fellow named Michael Kiely worked at Ogilvy & Mather Direct, at the London office, and he was familiar with Ed Mayer's rule and source of data. O&MD ran a 12-cell test program to measure the relative contribution of the three basic elements of response to the final outcome of a campaign. (Original post is here.)

He said:

When the List was made the variable, the Offer and Creative being the same in all three cells, the difference between the best and worst performing cell was 700%. When the Offer was the variable, the difference was 300%. But when the Creative was made the variable the difference was only 135%. This test produced a split of 62:26:12. I believe these percentages are more accurate that Ed's rule of thumb. For reasons of logic. Get even a mediocre offer to the right person and you have a chance to make a sale. Get the world's best offer to the wrong person and it's no sale. Deliver the world's best offer via the world's best creative solution to the wrong person and it's "NO SALE"... These are not DM "rules". They are facts based on human nature.

From their tests, the list was actually the most critical element over the offer by a margin of over 2:1, and the creative was a distant third, at least at that time and using their methodology.

Anyway, maybe that'll help.

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RickDuris 11 years ago

Originally Posted by Steve Hill

As closely as I can determine, it was originally specified as:

40 percent audience
40 percent offer
20 percent creative

Good job, Steve. This makes a heck of a lot more sense than 20% is "the copy" or even more descriptive "everything else category".

- Rick Duris
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shawnlebrun

11 years ago

Some could argue that list and offer could comprise 100% of your success...

If you send a "weight gain" program to a list of women looking to lose weight... well, there's a slight disconnect and copy means nothing.

But I do agree that with a list of targeted people... and with a product they want/offers them a solution... then the copy can either make the sale... or hurt it.

Gary B. has mentioned many times that a gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen...

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Steve The Copywriter

11 years ago

The List won't be bothered if the Offer is no good.

The Offer won't work if the Copy isn't enticing.

So using my highly advanced scientific mathematical computer program.

Here's the result.

33.3333% The List

33.3333% The Offer

33.3333% The Copy.

Damn it. If nobody ever reads it. Nothing will happen.

So its really...

100% the copy (make sure the offer is great and it's being sent to the right people).

Steve

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Raydal

11 years ago

Can anyone share the (multivariate) method of testing that would
yield these kind of results. I mean, what do you do?

1. Send the same copy to the same list with a different offer?
2. Send different copy to the same list with the same offer?
3. Send same copy to a different list with the same offer?

And who actually did this--or usually does this?

Thanks for the education.

-Ray Edwards

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Alex Cohen

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

Can anyone share the (multivariate) method of testing that would
yield these kind of results. I mean, what do you do?

1. Send the same copy to the same list with a different offer?
2. Send different copy to the same list with the same offer?
3. Send same copy to a different list with the same offer?

And who actually did this--or usually does this?

Thanks for the education.

-Ray Edwards

You can do that with simple tracking software like Prosper 202.

Tough to comment past that, though, because your descriptions are so vague.

If by "same" and "different" you mean...

copy1, offer1
copy1, offer2
copy2, offer1
copy2, offer2

... yes that can be easily done. You'd rotate 4 landing pages in your campaign.

A separate campaign would be set up for each list.

At least that's the way I'd do it.

Maybe somebody's got a better idea.

Alex

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Raydal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

If by "same" and "different" you mean...

copy1, offer1
copy1, offer2
copy2, offer1
copy2, offer2

Then it would be ...?

copy1, offer1, list1 (Control)
copy2, offer1, list1
copy1, offer2, list1
copy2, offer2, list1
copy1, offer1, list2
copy1, offer2, list2
copy2, offer2, list2

I guess.

-Ray Edwards

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Alex Cohen

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

Then it would be ...?

copy1, offer1, list1 (Control)
copy2, offer1, list1
copy1, offer2, list1
copy2, offer2, list1
copy1, offer1, list2
copy1, offer2, list2
copy2, offer2, list2

I guess.

-Ray Edwards

Close.

I'd test this way:

Campaign 1 - gets traffic from list 1
copy1, offer1
copy2, offer1
copy1, offer2
copy2, offer2

Campaign 2 - gets traffic from list 2
copy1, offer1
copy2, offer1
copy1, offer2
copy2, offer2

The purpose of the test is to determine the control, so I wouldn't designate any combination as the control until the test is completed.

Prosper 202 doesn't rotate lists, so you'd need to set up two campaigns.

Alex

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Raydal

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Alex Cohen

Close.

I'd test this way:

Campaign 1 - gets traffic from list 1
copy1, offer1
copy2, offer1
copy1, offer2
copy2, offer2

Campaign 2 - gets traffic from list 2
copy1, offer1
copy2, offer1
copy1, offer2
copy2, offer2

The purpose of the test is to determine the control, so I wouldn't designate any combination as the control until the test is completed.

Prosper 202 doesn't rotate lists, so you'd need to set up two campaigns.

Alex

This is actually the same sets of test as I suggested except that
you wrote them in a different way by placing lists at the top.

And I think that the point of my question was missed. The question
was not as innocent as it appeared. I didn't mean that I wanted an
explanation of how a multivariate test is done. I know that.

I just wanted to highlight that the 40-40-20 "rule" was NOT a test result
but an ESTIMATION based on experience. It is much like the
80/20 Pareto rule--it's a guesstimate.

I welcome any correction here.

-Ray Edwards

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Steve Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

Then it would be ...?

copy1, offer1, list1 (Control)
copy2, offer1, list1
copy1, offer2, list1
copy2, offer2, list1
copy1, offer1, list2
copy1, offer2, list2
copy2, offer2, list2

At a basic level, yes, but there are many other possibilities, especially for online.

A good book on the subject is "You Should Test That" by Chris Goward. Sometimes something as simple as the color and positioning of an order button can make a significant difference in the number of conversions.

As Rick mentions, specific components are important so they can be directly compared in different configurations, no matter what the delivery medium is.

I do have to wonder, though, whether we're entering a period where the delivery medium (online, direct mail, social media like Twitter, etc.) will help dictate the proper "mix" for successful marketing.

Can that mix really be addressed in blanket proportions anymore? Does design take a higher precedence in online environments?

Clearly, having the right offer to the right audience at the right time is going to be extremely important (as it always has been), but for the most part, design seems to have had a relatively minor importance in direct marketing.

However, online testing does show some significant improvements with visual tweaking (since humans do have certain characteristic behaviors), so maybe it will get a larger role in the future.

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Ross Bowring

11 years ago

Well, this thread grew into something interesting. Maybe l should ask questions more often. Thanks for all the feedback ladies and gents.

--- Ross

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Robert_Rand

11 years ago

I would agree with what Brian posted. Exact numbers don't matter but relevantly speaking, that's about right.

Offer is absolutely not just the product/service you're selling. It's also how whatever you're selling is "offered" - meaning, how it's positioned including: price, packaging, and bonuses.

I also think Shawn makes a good point. Overall, in terms of success... yeah, the ratio is applicable. But when you're talking about serious marketers and winning campaigns who already for the most part have 1 and 2 locked in, the copy is a much bigger leverage point than that ratio reflects.

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max5ty

11 years ago

The 40/40/20 rule was started by Ed Mayor back in the 60s in a book he wrote after he sold products through the mail for over 30 years.

40 - right audience
40 - offer you are making
20 - factors such as presentation and format

If you notice, the formula is used to determine the percentages of factors that go into the success of a marketing campaign after you have a product.

I said the above sentence because the initial phase that determines your success is having the right product. The right product is not mentioned in the formula because Mayor was using it as a post product marketing strategy.

I've read where some are confusing product with offer.

The formula wasn't meant to determine what percentages would affect the outcome of your marketing if you were at stage 1 in your quest for world supremacy with marketing...I.E., you hadn't yet decided on a product.

Hopefully we all know the most important part of a successful advertising campaign is skillfully putting the right product in front of the right audience with an offer they can't refuse.

What is 40 40 20 rule? definition and meaning

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Originally Posted by max5ty

The 40/40/20 rule was started by Ed Mayor back in the 60s in a book he wrote after he sold products through the mail for over 30 years.

40 - right audience
40 - offer you are making
20 - factors such as presentation and format

If you notice, the formula is used to determine the percentages of factors that go into the success of a marketing campaign after you have a product.

What is 40 40 20 rule? definition and meaning

You're wrong about the 40 being AFTER you have a product. (Thanks for the LOL 'cause it's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.)

I've posted the following graphic a dozen times over the years and it has been ignored by most in here like you'd ignore a red-headed stepchild at a family reunion...

Let me repeat again... "40 percent to who the mailer is" (i.e. the COMPANY) and "what he (the COMPANY) has to offer (PRODUCT/SERVICE). The "offer" most in here are thinking of belongs inside the 20% where copy is.

max5ty your link, along with 99.9% of others who posted Mayer's rule of success on the net are WRONG.

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max5ty

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

You're wrong about the 40 being AFTER you have a product. (Thanks for the LOL 'cause it's the first time I've ever heard anyone say that.)

I've posted the following graphic a dozen times over the years and it has been ignored by most in here like you'd ignore a red-headed stepchild at a family reunion...

Let me repeat again... "40 percent to who the mailer is" (i.e. the COMPANY) and "what he (the COMPANY) has to offer (PRODUCT/SERVICE). The "offer" most in here are thinking of belongs inside the 20% where copy is.

max5ty your link, along with 99.9% of others who posted Mayer's rule of success on the net are WRONG.

Ok, well if the second 40 ounce is the product, I think this whole hoopty thing might be flawed...burp.

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

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Mr. Subtle

11 years ago

Gary Halbert put more weight on the list (and ignored the product/service):

Listen: As you may or may not know, every once in a while I give a class on copywriting and/or selling by mail. During these classes, one of the questions I like to ask my students is: "If you and I both owned a hamburger stand and we were in a contest to see who could sell the most hamburgers, what advantages would you most like to have on your side to help you win?"

The answers vary. Some of the students say they would like to have the advantage of having superior meat from which to make their burgers. Others say they want sesame seed buns. Others mention location. Someone usually wants to be able to offer the lowest prices.

And so on.

Whatever. In any case, after my students are finished telling me what advantages they would most like to have, I usually say to them something like this: "O.K., I'll give you every single advantage you have asked for. I, myself, only want one advantage and, if you will give it to me, I will (when it comes to selling burgers) whip the pants off all of you!"

"What advantage do you want?" they ask.

"The only advantage I want," I reply...

"Is...A Starving Crowd!"

Think about it. When it comes to direct marketing, the most profitable habit you can cultivate is the habit of constantly being on the lookout for groups of people (markets) who have demonstrated that they are starving (or, at least hungry) for some particular product or service.

Halbert makes a good point (that any marketer knows), but he's ignoring the product. Yes, with his copywriting skills he would win the contest that day, next week and a few weeks after that until everyone in the area around his store tried his SH*TTY burgers (once). After that, the other stand would win and continue to win and Halbert's stand would go out of business no matter how good his ad copy or how good his offers were.

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RickDuris

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle

Company: Hyundai

Product: Car, Model - Accent

Risk reversal is a copy element - Drive it for 30 days and if you aren't happy with it will buy it back at the price you paid for it.

Financing is a copy element - Zero down at signing and 1% interest for 60 months.

You're making things way more complicated than they should be. If it's not the product or service the company is selling then it goes in the everything else category (20%).

Damn, I didn't know automotive industry copywriters could decide the financing and warranties. Do they get to say what the price is too? (Automotive industry copywriters are giggling now.)

And I also didn't know "20% is the copy" has now been renamed as "the everything else category".

Good to know.

- Rick Duris

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ECTally

11 years ago

Originally Posted by Ross Bowring

Guys and gals... do you know the typically mentioned parameters for the offer/copy/list "importance ratio" for a successful promotion? I'm doing research for a project and can't yet find it on Google. Much appreciated if you can help.

Thanks!

--- Ross

Many will probably get the urge to crucify me for saying this, but I submit that the 40/40/20 rule is just another copywriting urban legend. There's no documented source for the claim, and everything we have about the 40/40/20 rule is based on the 10th or 76th hand hearsay.

For such a bold assertion, there should be at least some first hand literature on the subject, or a mention from industry contemporaries. As far as I know, the claim first emerged in Nat Bodian's 1986 book

book , bereft of any attribution beyond stating that the late Ed Mayer developed the rule, and it just sort of snowballed into one of the unspoken commandments of the DM industry.

I stand to be corrected.

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Steve Hill

11 years ago

Originally Posted by ECTally

Many will probably get the urge to crucify me for saying this, but I submit that the 40/40/20 rule is just another copywriting urban legend. There's no documented source for the claim, and everything we have about the 40/40/20 rule is based on the 10th or 76th hand hearsay.

For such a bold assertion, there should be at least some first hand literature on the subject, or a mention from industry contemporaries. As far as I know, the claim first emerged in Nat Bodian's 1986 book, bereft of any attribution beyond stating that the late Ed Mayer developed the rule, and it just sort of snowballed into one of the unspoken commandments of the DM industry.

I stand to be corrected.

Same conclusion here so far... references everywhere, but no source document. I'll try asking the one guy that said he was familiar with the original data.

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Offer/copy/list ratio --- HELP PLEASE!

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