Why Not to Charge $197 for your sales copy... Or pay it, either.

132 replies
Okay, so this might tickle a few feathers, but I'm just going to come out and say it.

I could tell you not to charge $197 for your sales copy out of professional courtesy, but it doesn't devalue the work of other copywriters... In fact, it makes our work MORE valuable.

I could tell you not to charge $197 for a salesletter because you'll earn more if you charge more, but that isn't necessarily true. If you suck, you'll earn about the same. But you will have to work a little bit less (not much, mind you.)

No, the real reason I suggest people stop charging $197 for sales copy is one word.

RESPECT

I'm not talking about the respect you give, either. I'm talking about the respect you GET.

Think about this for a minute... When you buy, say, a kitchen gadget at a department store for $200 - you have a certain respect for that item. You invested in it, and want it to last a long time. If you buy the same kitchen gadget at a dollar store, how much are you going to respect it?

Not at all.

Because if you really cared about the item, you would have bought a better quality one. Dollar stores are notorious for bad quality products, of course, and (the number one reason) if it breaks, you can replace it easily. After all, it was only a dollar!

Now apply this to your copywriting.

If you're priced at 1/10th of what even the most newbie copywriters are charging (at least, the ones with confidence), you're going to get DOLLAR STORE shoppers. They're not going to expect you to be any good, so they're going to get their mucky mitts in there and try and "fix" you so your copy is better. Then when it sucks, they blame it on you, but aren't too angry because "After all, it was only a dollar!"

You can be replaced, and in all likelihood (since the client has no real expectation of you doing well) you WILL be.

Plus you'll have no respect from your peers... Your copy could be fantastic, but we'll have a hard time believing it. Why? Because it takes CONFIDENCE to charge real fees for your work, and it takes CONFIDENCE to write better than half-assed sales copy.

Worst of all, you'll have no respect for yourself. Because you don't think you deserve more - you don't respect yourself.

Please, for yourself, for your clients, and for the reputation of the warrior forum - charge what you're worth.

And if your copy really is only worth $197, then for your own sake it might be time to move on.

- Cherilyn
The Canadian Copywriter

P.S. Apparently my original intentions weren't clear. Hope I didn't offend anyone in my attempts to help newer copywriters see the light at the end of the value tunnel - none was intended, nor was this a post scolding anyone for not paying higher fees. Just another perspective.
#$197 #charge #copy #pay #sales
  • Profile picture of the author JP Wilson
    Great post Cherilyn. Although I am curious about your opinion on what a newbie, unproven copywriter should be charging (the range at least) for a quality letter. Only asking because there are some in this community who would (and have) argued the opposite.

    I personally know of copywriters (decent one's mind you) who are selling their services for absolutely dirt cheap. I don't think that too many people lack respect for them, but are instead, raving fans of someone willing to give them what they perceive to be a Bentley for the price of a Honda, however self-defeating it may be for the writer.

    I don't want to sound like I disagree with you, because in all honesty I think that $197 is beyond being a ridiculously low price for a salesletter. But at what point, in your mind, does a price become reasonable? How much did you charge when you first started out, if you don't mind disclosing?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811398].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
      Originally Posted by Matt Jutras View Post

      So I guess what I'm saying is: what's wrong with charging a bargain price and then raising it as time goes on, building references/experience?
      Matt,

      It boils down to mindset. If a copywriter bases his fees on his prior experience, sure, he has to start small and work his way up.

      But if a copywriter bases his fees on the value he brings to the table, it's a different matter completely.

      How a copywriter positions himself is how people see him.

      Alex
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811498].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author John_S
        If copywriters want to charge $197 or $97, let them.

        Copywriters, of all people, should know better than to argue (in writing, no less) against human nature.

        Both the parties will, eventually, learn. If not, then either side should get out of the business they are in. Using these copywriters, the clients will learn through the school of hard knocks.

        You're cutting your own throat advocating this (or at least mine). Just about zero of my clients hire me first. They hire somebody cheap. ...And again. ...And again. Between two to five others before they come to me.

        That's why what I charge is real cheap. I'm comparing it to triple the costs they've paid out to all the others in direct payment, lost sales and lost time. An educated consumer of copywriting is my best client.

        It takes an expensive education for clients to understand. I'm all for not footing the expense and time myself.

        I, for one, heartily cheer on the rabble. Their clients will be my clients, eventually.

        I understand what you're saying...but please tell me what a writer is supposed to do when they are:

        * totally unknown

        * without references

        * still honing their craft
        Yeah, selling your own products and practicing on yourself never occurred to you. Good luck practicing on clients and then keeping them.

        As I was saying: Keep up the good work.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811518].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
      Originally Posted by Matt Jutras View Post

      I understand what you're saying...but please tell me what a writer is supposed to do when they are:
      • totally unknown
      • without references
      • still honing their craft
      Learn how to sell
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811803].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author John_S
        Learn how to sell
        I don't think you're allowed to be this sensible on the web.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811813].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    then eventually
    I know you have no issue with waiting. Hope your clients can hold their breath that long.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811554].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    born gifted
    Belief systems like that keep me in business.

    Just keep writing. Please.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811575].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    I don't want to do that.
    And why should you. That deprives me.

    That's some great advertising so far. Please continue.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811600].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    You can't know how much I support your hard work. Thank you for all you do.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811611].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    My first sales letter was for $350. I did one then went to $500 and quickly up to $1,000 and higher.

    I have no problem at all with $97 or $197 copywriters. Hell, I've thought about using them myself because of how I value my time. If I can get a decent start on a sales letter for $197 and it saves me 8 hours of work, I figure that's worth $800+ to me.

    I will make a factual observation though. 3 years ago, you could run a WSO for sales letters at $397 to even $1,000 and sell them out in a few days. Because of the cheap copywriters, those days are long gone. It never hurt me because I never ran a single sales copy WSO and never will. But it's a shame that a quick cash method is gone because there are times some people really need that.

    As for the excuse, "you have to start somewhere..." Fine, but you don't have to start in the gutter. $400 is a damn cheap sales letter for any marketer and the guy writing it can at least earn $10-20/hr for his time.

    Honestly, Cherilyn nailed it. Respect yourself enough to not work for peanuts.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811624].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author BrandonLee
      Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

      Honestly, Cherilyn nailed it. Respect yourself enough to not work for peanuts.
      In the end it also comes down to respecting yourself AND YOUR CLIENT, and that's a pretty large problem in our world today. Most people just don't give a damn, so they will give you a piece of crap product and really not care, after all they got paid.

      That said if your in a desperate situation you might have to do desperate things. That can happen to the best of us, and I know this for first hand experience. If you have to keep working for bargin basement prices though you have to start to wonder if your worth hiring in the first place, and if you conclude that your not, then respect other people enough to NOT STEAL FROM THEM by giving them a crappy product or service.

      Brandon
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[849837].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author John_S
    at least earn $10-20/hr for his time.
    What on earth makes you think copywriters now spend the same amount of time on client projects -- or spend time actually writing? They'll earn that $20 per hour with fewer hours.

    Simple human nature.

    Hello? Swipe file copy and paste takes what -- ten minutes? Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't reached $9.97 by now.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811651].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
      Originally Posted by John_S View Post

      What on earth makes you think copywriters now spend the same amount of time on client projects -- or spend time actually writing? They'll earn that $20 per hour with fewer hours.

      Simple human nature.

      Hello? Swipe file copy and paste takes what -- ten minutes? Frankly I'm surprised it hasn't reached $9.97 by now.
      You're a little abstract for me, John. Are you saying the $97 guys are swiping their copy word for word? If so, they must be students of the rabbi.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811664].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Originally Posted by Matt Jutras View Post

    Bruce...before Clint Eastwood chomps on his hotdog and blows away the bank robbers...please clear up some confusion for me..

    ..you said that a few years ago it was easy to run a WSO and get $397-$1000 for a sales letter...but those days were long gone due to cheap copywriters..

    Then, you said that $400 is damn cheap and anything less is starting in the gutter...so how is someone supposed to start off charging a lot if there is this glut of people who will do it for less?

    I'm asking this honestly, not attacking you.
    Simple. You don't start in the Warrior Forum WSO area. It's dead for serious copywriters.

    Originally Posted by Matt Jutras View Post

    What's wrong with doing 2 or 3 letters for a hundred bucks and building some references that can be used to climb up the ladder of better/higher paying clients?

    I can see not making a career out of working for peanuts, but I stand behind what I said earlier: you gotta start somewhere.
    Matt, if you don't think anything is wrong with it, then nothing is wrong with it. There are certainly times where you make a sacrifice for a future gain. And what I value my time at and what you value yours at may be entirely different numbers.

    But I'll tell you this. If you get a rep as a $197 copywriter, you're going to find yourself stuck there. And there is a lot of visibility in this forum, more than you realize.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811661].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John_S
      If you get a rep as a $197 copywriter, you're going to find yourself stuck there. And there is a lot of visibility in this forum, more than you realize.
      You are revealing actual information. For shame. What has the web come to.


      the $97 guys are swiping their copy word for word?
      I think, as the prices decrease, economic realities dictate change. I think if you think the copywriters now are doing the exact same thing they did back then, you may want to take a closer look.

      You can't generalize to every last person. It is possible to hit the labor lotto. But that's not the way to bet.

      Question: Do you really need a copywriter whose "secret" is marking down the price 80% to 90% or more? Couldn't clients kinda, sorta figure out how to change a number on their own?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811666].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
        Ive never written sales copy in my life, but I read 2 books about it and I think I've basically got it down.

        I respect myself and am considering starting off charging $2000 for a sales letter...and thats CHEAP...so Im only doing it once before I double my rates.

        If the copy flunks...Ive learned from this forum that its not my fault...probably the offer/traffic/insert reason here....so how can I lose?

        Money for nothing...yes?
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811677].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    Good thread.

    It's not hard to bang-out a formulaic salesletter for a generic product
    pretty fast - there is no research or real thinking involved,
    just regurgitation of cliches for a project that doesn't really
    matter much one way or the other. It's on the level of a guy
    hawking ginsu knives in a flee-market... either the product
    just sells itself on it's usefulness, or it flops.

    The problem is that in the real marketplace situations most
    products are not unique or useful or such obvious amazing
    values that they "sell themselves" like the Ginsu. There is
    differentiation and price-justification to be done if the client
    actually wants to make some money with his or her salesletter -
    in fact there are so many subtle factors of timing, marketplace
    awareness, trial closes... too many factors to rattle them
    off like a shopping list.

    Bottom-line, creating copy that sells and succeeds in a
    competitive marketplace is not child's play and it is a unwise
    writer who is capable of winning copy who undercharges
    for that hard-won ability.

    I don't actually want to argue in this thread - I think it's a good
    topic to bring-up and I value everybody's viewpoint here.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811710].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John_S
      Bottom-line, creating copy that sells and succeeds in a
      competitive marketplace is not child's play and it is a unwise
      writer who is capable of winning copy who undercharges
      for that hard-won ability.
      I think you're leaving out those people who don't have that ability, and don't want to put in the time to earn it. In those cases, pricing is probably about right -- if anything, high.

      There's a certain wisdom in pricing that cuts through all the hyperbole. A lot of these people's claims are writing checks their copy can't cash. Price flushes that out.

      Consider it the mirror opposite of putting your money where your mouth is. Every so often you do in fact get what you pay for.

      Some people lack confidence simply because they have every right to.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811785].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        If you are a copywriter who is paid thousands - why do you care about those who charge less?

        If they aren't any competition to you, why lecture them?

        There are different levels of expertise in every area of IM - and people charge according to their experience, according to how much work they can get, and also based on what they expect or need (and that may have to do with where they live).

        It seems to be mostly in the writing arena - articles/ghostwriters and copywriters - where those who charge high fees seem to resent those who don't. If the lower priced writers don't affect YOUR business, why is it necessary to denigrate them?

        kay
        Signature
        Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
        ***
        One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
        what it is instead of what you think it should be.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811823].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          If you are a copywriter who is paid thousands - why do you care about those who charge less?

          If they aren't any competition to you, why lecture them?

          There are different levels of expertise in every area of IM - and people charge according to their experience, according to how much work they can get, and also based on what they expect or need (and that may have to do with where they live).

          It seems to be mostly in the writing arena - articles/ghostwriters and copywriters - where those who charge high fees seem to resent those who don't. If the lower priced writers don't affect YOUR business, why is it necessary to denigrate them?

          kay
          Good points Kay. You're right: 99% of copywriters who charge less than me don't affect my business because I don't market my business on price.

          Personally, I try to encourage them to break out of the low pay/high volume copywriting business as it's a quick way to burnout. Been there, done that. It's just another way to give back to the profession that has been so good to my family and me over the years.

          In terms of Warrior Forum, when all copywriters were charging within the range of copywriting fees ($500-$10K) that most copywriters were charging, it meant every copywriter had an easier time getting clients. Many clients were getting good to great copy as a result. Someone charging $97 per letter needs to write A LOT of them every month just to pay their bills. While some clients were thrilled with getting a bargain, many of them weren't getting results from their copy either.

          As soon as some copywriters started charging under $200, it made it more difficult to get clients because you had to do a better job of "proving" why you were worth more than the $97 or $197 copywriter.

          Bottom line: When consumers can't tell the difference between service providers, the service becomes a commodity and then consumers make a decision strictly on lowest price.

          That's why copywriters who have focused on offering high-quality copy and high-quality customer service have continued to do well while others have been forced to struggle or work for less money.

          Take care,

          Mike
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811860].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author TimCastleman
            I don't think either side is going to convert the other. I choose to sell based on value and not price. I have a drop dead price I will not work for less than and if they ask for less I tell them I can't do it - I have a family and self respect.

            My advice for someone who is starting out? Understand that one cheap client gets you another cheap client. Also it is much easier to go down in price during a negotiation than it is to go up.

            Also remember that time doesn't equate money. If I can change your headline and it changes your bottom line and it only takes 20 minutes. Fine.

            Oh and my last piece of advice. You could earn $97 bucks flipping burgers for a day or two.

            Tim
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812026].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author The Copy Warriors
            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post


            In terms of Warrior Forum, when all copywriters were charging within the range of copywriting fees ($500-$10K) that most copywriters were charging, it meant every copywriter had an easier time getting clients. Many clients were getting good to great copy as a result. Someone charging $97 per letter needs to write A LOT of them every month just to pay their bills. While some clients were thrilled with getting a bargain, many of them weren't getting results from their copy either.
            Yeah, I was snooping around the WFH forum a while ago and I checked out one of these $97 copywriting deals.

            The guy posted samples, which were clearly not the work of a sale-getting copywriter, but did at least feature proper spelling and grammar.

            If you've ever worked on freelance sites before, you'll know that clients mostly just give feedback based on what they see; they don't really bother testing the stuff for results before they post a review.

            In my opinion what's probably happening is that who guys who buy $2 articles are buying $97 sales letters as well, and finding themselves amazed at the quality compared to what they're getting in the spun articles.

            Of course, by the time they actually run the thing and have their sales fall flat, they've already posted their glowing review of the "awesome" (i.e. written in passable English) sales letter.

            Meanwhile, behind the scenes, the $97 dudes are cranking out like 3 of these things a day and putting no research into their projects at all.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6360078].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
      I started as a copywriter with only my own infoproducts and offline marketing pieces to show as my portfolio. 99% of them were massage therapy related as I owned a massage therapy center for 6 1/2 years.

      That was my initial hook: I was building a portfolio and professional reputation so that's why I was charging so little then (Aug-Dec 2006).

      My first copywriting client hired me for $100 to write a new home page for his website. Of course, he got me that cheap because he's one of my best friends and introduced me to my wife.

      My next project was $200 or $300 rewrites and $400 for a sales letter from scratch. I ran a WSO for that and sold it out within 4 days.

      I quickly bumped my prices to $1000... then $1200... $1500... $2000 and bit more each month until I got into the $4-5K range depending on the project. For the past 2 years, I've been writing both offline and online copy so my fees really do depend on the type of project.

      I started out as a volume copywriter which helped me strengthen some of my skills but gave me a killer overloaded schedule. Most of my skills improved from constant studying and practice of copywriting. I read strong sales copy written by very skilled copywriters every day. I am usually writing copy for either clients or my own businesses on a daily basis as well.

      I switched as quickly as I could to being a high-quality sales copy guy. No swipe file games... clients hire me to write from scratch which what I do. I'm not the fastest at writing copy but I am damn good at what I do. I have the testimonials and track record to back my claim too.

      That's the path that a lot of successful copywriters I know have done. You parlay your own marketing skills and client successes into justifying higher fees.

      Takes some time and a lot of hard work but it's worth it in the long run. Stop competing on price. There's always someone willing or able to work cheaper. Start competing on the value that you can deliver to your clients before, during, and after the sales letter is written.

      re: WSOs. The copywriting ones are tougher to charge decent prices because of the constant stream of dirt-cheap copy WSOs. I have done a few in the past 2 years that have flat-out bombed. Other copywriting-related ones have done fairly well.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[811830].message }}
  • Wow, this turned into quite the thread while I was away!

    Mike, that was exactly the point of this post. It wasn't intended to "scold" anyone, or any such thing. Because, as Kay said, they don't have any affect on my business so it really doesn't matter to me.

    Really, it was coming from a place of wanting to encourage those who are charging lower fees (and those that are paying them) to move up, because in the end, the lower fees are a lot more trouble than they are worth. For everyone involved.

    I might have worded it a bit harsh, but that was really just to drive the point home. If you're paying peanuts for your copy, regardless of how good it is, it is never going to be "good enough" - so you're not going to value the letter enough to send good traffic to it, etc. etc.

    And if you're getting peanuts for your work, you're going to do as stated above - and swipe file your way through life.

    Getting started with low fees is fine, but honestly, you're going to burn yourself out, and end up with a pretty low reputation, if that is all you do all day. $197 salesletter, cut and paste from things that worked (even if you don't know why they worked) in the past, working 10 hour days to get by... That's no life.

    Value your time, value your clients, and value yourself. Price according to the value that you bring.

    Honestly, if all you bring is $197 worth of value to the table, then fine - charge that. But I highly doubt any copywriter worth his salt isn't going to be able to bring more value to the table than that, no?

    - Cherilyn
    The Canadian Copywriter
    Signature
    Take your product from idea to profit in less than 90 days! Work with me to develop and implement a step-by-step plan for success!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812002].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      Cherilyn -

      I thought your original comments were encouraging to writers - it was the sniping that came later that I objected to.

      kay
      Signature
      Saving one dog will not change the world - but the world changes forever for that one dog
      ***
      One secret to happiness is to let every situation be
      what it is instead of what you think it should be.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812009].message }}
  • No problem Kay - I didn't think that was directed at me, just wanted to clarify. I didn't mean to start any kind of sniping or arguing, but in between all of that I think we have some constructive discussion going on here.
    Signature
    Take your product from idea to profit in less than 90 days! Work with me to develop and implement a step-by-step plan for success!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812032].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Hi guys,

    Just wanted to chime in here.

    As some of you may know - when I decided I wanted to start writing copy for clients the first thing I did was run a WSO for $97.

    HOWEVER... I knew that, for me, this was a strict ONE TIME deal... I wrote four sales letters at that price (earning below minimum wage, in a per hour way of looking at things... because I took my time to do a good job).

    From that initial work... I was asked by two people to write another sales letter. I said sure - but this time the letters were $500 each. I know that's still peanuts, but it was certainly good progress for me.

    These days (which, let's face it, isn't far from when I started) when someone asks me how much to write a sales letter, I say $2k. That's lower than a lot of copywriters, but it is at least in the ballpark of "respectable". With time I will continue to raise my fees, simply because that's the way I feel comfortable doing things.

    Having BOUGHT $97 sales letters before... I can say that yes, they were awful. And the copywriter will immediately turn around and blame you for their lack of results. Early reports for the copy I've written is that it's converting really, really well - although I'll have to wait a little longer to make sure those results stay where they are.

    Having said all that, I stand by my work and I am committed to improving my skills - I'm starting coaching with Vin soon, so I think that will really help me out.

    What I'm getting at here is that a lot of copywriters would have said that I should have charged at least $1 000 for my first letter, probably more. But I personally didn't feel comfortable doing that. I did with what I felt was right for me and it seems to be working out.

    Of course, there's a difference between being a $97 copywriter for a week... and doing it EVERY week.

    I'm not saying the way I did things was perfect. If I could go back in time, I may want to do things slightly differently. But there are multiple ways to get to a given destination.

    So, Matt, there's nothing wrong with starting at the bottom and clawing your way up - but you probably don't HAVE to. The point is that you're a copywriter - you should charge what you're worth, because if you don't, you are doing yourself AND YOUR CLIENTS a disservice.

    Remember, you're in business for yourself. You set your own prices. And, ultimately, you should negotiate from a position of power... and 90% of that is how you feel in your own head.

    I had someone ask to write some copy for them the other day. They wanted me but couldn't afford me. No hard feelings - maybe one day they will hire me, maybe not.

    One thing I have learned is that there's a high demand for you if you are GOOD at something - and I aim to be one of the best.

    I think John's comments here come from a position of love... he is a really nice guy and probably just wants to help you succeed. The point he's making, as I understand it, is that you make your own reality... so why make one where you get paid peanuts?

    Finally, Matt, there's no rule that you have to write the books yourself. Pay a ghostwriter, or even take a CB product and write your own salesletter for it and see how it converts. That's hands-on knowledge, and will give you a good idea of how marketing in general works - not just copywriting.

    Hopefully my experiences will be able to give some of you some ideas of how you may or may not want to do things. I'm certainly no expert like John or Mike... but I have learned a lot through trial-and-error and hopefully that can be of use to someone.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812331].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John_S
      Having BOUGHT $97 sales letters before... I can say that yes, they were awful.
      This should be a surprise to no one. Unless you go by the assumption the only variable affecting price is respect.

      Somehow this smacks of the "gold star" self esteem issue which has worked its miracle on America's school system. With a dollar sign replacing a gold star.

      If clients just hug their copywriter more, everything would work out.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812471].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        Originally Posted by John_S View Post

        Somehow this smacks of the "gold star" self esteem issue which has worked its miracle on America's school system. With a dollar sign replacing a gold star.

        If clients just hug their copywriter more, everything would work out.
        John,

        I don't really understand what you are saying in your post.

        Would you be willing to explain it a little more?

        I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed... but I don't really follow.

        -Dan
        Signature

        Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812476].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author John_S
          From the initial post kicking off the thread:

          No, the real reason I suggest people stop charging $197 for sales copy is one word.

          RESPECT
          The "real reason" not being poor copywriting, inadequate research, and other quality and skill issues. Just poor self respect. And poor respect from clients.

          Then again, later...

          But I highly doubt any copywriter worth his salt isn't going to be able to bring more value to the table than that, no?
          Essentially copy doesn't matter. You'll get pretty good copy no matter what you pay -- certainly not awful copy.

          All that matters is respect.

          Might as well chuck the books and forget hiring a copywriter altogether. Just feel good about yourself, and you'll be writing copy like a pro.

          Every so often we get a self-proclaimed copywriter who seems to think the only reason Gary Halbert got so much money per letter is a ballsy attitude. This is not so much different than the school abandoning merit for a self esteem based philosophy where test results and subject knowledge don't matter.

          The kernel at the heart would appear to be self respect is the key, not skill. Not study. Not achievement. Not results. Not merit.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812491].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    John,

    Thanks for clarifying. I wasn't really aware of the whole "gold star" issue... now I understand.

    Whilst I understand (finally, LOL) your position, and respect it, I think there are other factors that come into play.

    Certainly copywriters need to know their stuff, work on results, and all that. And unless I am mistaken, Cherilyn acknowledges this (even if it wasn't clear in this particular post).

    However, isn't it possible that it's a partially self-fulfilling prophecy? As Mike said, at $197 a letter, it takes a lot of letters to pay the bills. Hence, less time on individual letters, and hence, lower overall quality.

    Isn't it possible that a $197 copywriter who does a lousy job at $197 a letter could do a good job if they had $2 000 per letter?

    Desperation can make people do crazy things... and then it becomes a vicious cyclical habit.

    I certainly agree with where you're coming from, John - you need the skills. There's no getting around that.

    I'm just saying that for some people, this can be a very complex problem.

    Having been a pro musician, I've seen it a lot. People are desperate to have money (you know, for rent, food etc... the little stuff) so they grossly undervalue their work to get gigs, which they hate, so they play like crap at them... and the cycle continues.

    I'm not saying it's a smart choice. Just saying that sometimes people get desperate and make mistakes.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812518].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John_S
      Isn't it possible that a $197 copywriter who does a lousy job at $197 a letter could do a good job if they had $2 000 per letter?
      Possible. Not probable. This is the "only difference between poor people and rich people is money" fallacy.

      The percentage of lottery winners who fail to hold onto their money is a strong argument against.

      As for copywriting and time spent, several assumptions apply. One being the fledgling copywriter will spend their time about as wisely as the veteran expert. Untrue. It is far more probable the newbie will need more time than a veteran.

      I played a little and was not the best "sight reader" as a veteran would be. But when you discount practice and skill, that's an easy pitfall to fall into.

      Actually, this touches on some interesting issues of psychology and a book some people might like to check out.

      Gladwell says most experts accrue about 10,000 hours of practice before they develop their talent. For example, the Beatles spent two years in Germany playing long hours each day (8 hours a day, 7 days a week, for a good chunk of the year) before they became famous.
      -- Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers and the Real Reason You Are a Successful Writer
      When interviewed, most American students make the argument talent fosters good grades, so studying is largely a waste of time. Asian students argue talent is the result of dedication and practice, as are good grades.

      One of these groups gets better results than the other. Guess which?

      A woman I know only consults with programmers making over $115,000 per year. She doesn't care what the programmer's self respect is. All she knows is that earning point marks two different world views.

      You can talk 'til you're blue in the face to the wrong world view -- it won't help.

      That's an important lesson for copywriters. Forget what's possible -- almost anything is possible. Isn't it highly probable the $197 copywriter will suggest the same tactics they use -- including lower price points and less research and development?

      Their world view practically demands they will. That's human nature. The probabilities are they'll look for shortcuts, tricks and gimmicks. What's Bencivenga's trick to better results? A gifted product.

      It is a whole different world view.

      What's possible is the realm of wishful thinking. Probabilities -- that's copywriting and marketing.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812582].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    John,

    Thanks for the reply.

    For what it's worth you are definitely a copywriter I look up to and I enjoy these kind of discussions very much.

    Regarding the "talent vs. practise" thing... I'd say you are only half right.

    I practised 6 hours a day at uni. I mean, I worked harder than almost anybody. One of my friends practised about an hour a week, and blew everyone else out of the water... she was incredible.

    Of course, then you have the people who have the talent AND the dedication... and they become the elite.

    This is just my observations and experience. But I do believe that we each have an innate talent for something to a varying degree. And that this talent has a significant impact on how successful at the chosen task we are.

    That's not to say you can't be great if you don't have the talent - simply that natural talent does exist and DOES play a role in your skills.

    Personally, I don't have any, at music or at copywriting. The skills I have I have gotten because I've worked my butt off.

    I DO have natural talent at other stuff... and I'm good at it despite working at it.

    This doesn't really have much relevance to the OP... just wanted to elaborate on a point you made in your post.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812596].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author John_S
      This doesn't really have much relevance to the OP
      Really? I think world view may just come out in the copy angle, time spent per project, the process used, and the result.

      And it might well come out in whether you suggest changes to the product to improve copy, or lard on more gimmicks to "make people buy."
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812615].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    John,

    I agree, but I was saying that MY rant about "talent vs. dedication" wasn't really relevant... not what you were saying.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812620].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester View Post

    Okay, so this might tickle a few feathers, but I'm just going to come out and say it.

    I could tell you not to charge $197 for your sales copy out of professional courtesy, but it doesn't devalue the work of other copywriters... In fact, it makes our work MORE valuable.

    I could tell you not to charge $197 for a salesletter because you'll earn more if you charge more, but that isn't necessarily true. If you suck, you'll earn about the same. But you will have to work a little bit less (not much, mind you.)
    Cherilyn,

    You have the right to your opinion, of course, but I think your post is full of holes. It seems to completely throw the law of supply and demand out the window. In fact, to some extent, you seem to advocate price fixing by suggesting (or, at least, implying) that no one should charge less than you do... for their own good, of course.



    No, the real reason I suggest people stop charging $197 for sales copy is one word.

    RESPECT

    I'm not talking about the respect you give, either. I'm talking about the respect you GET.

    Think about this for a minute... When you buy, say, a kitchen gadget at a department store for $200 - you have a certain respect for that item. You invested in it, and want it to last a long time. If you buy the same kitchen gadget at a dollar store, how much are you going to respect it?

    Not at all.

    Because if you really cared about the item, you would have bought a better quality one. Dollar stores are notorious for bad quality products, of course, and (the number one reason) if it breaks, you can replace it easily. After all, it was only a dollar!

    Now apply this to your copywriting.

    If you're priced at 1/10th of what even the most newbie copywriters are charging (at least, the ones with confidence), you're going to get DOLLAR STORE shoppers. They're not going to expect you to be any good, so they're going to get their mucky mitts in there and try and "fix" you so your copy is better. Then when it sucks, they blame it on you, but aren't too angry because "After all, it was only a dollar!"

    You can be replaced, and in all likelihood (since the client has no real expectation of you doing well) you WILL be.

    Plus you'll have no respect from your peers... Your copy could be fantastic, but we'll have a hard time believing it. Why? Because it takes CONFIDENCE to charge real fees for your work, and it takes CONFIDENCE to write better than half-assed sales copy.
    If your "respect" theory is correct, does that mean I have no self-respect for myself if I drive an inexpensive sub-compact car? How much, exactly, would self-respect cost me? Would a $30,000 car be adequate to regain it? I'm just wondering where the "self-respect line" should be drawn for various other non-kitchen-gadget items. (You've already established that I should avoid kitchen gadgets that cost less than $200. Thank you.)



    Worst of all, you'll have no respect for yourself. How much respect do you think the 40 year old lady working part time at McDonalds has for herself? NONE, because she doesn't believe she can do better. You'll never be taken seriously at those rates, and you know it. But you don't care, because you don't think you deserve more - you don't respect yourself.
    Apparently, we have very different views of the world. When I see a 40-year-old woman working at McDonalds, I have admiration, respect, and empathy for her. In my mind, I can only imagine that she is doing what she has to do in order to feed her children or pay her mortgage.

    As such, rather than thinking that she lacks self-respect, I see her as having tremendous strength. Would it be more dignified to let her children starve until a six-figure job offer comes through from a fortune 500 company?



    Please, for yourself, for your clients, and for the reputation of the warrior forum - charge what you're worth.

    And if your copy really is only worth $197, then for the love of G*d find another profession.

    - Cherilyn
    The Canadian Copywriter
    Most buyers are smart enough to know that they probably don't need a "killer" $10,000 sales letter to sell their first $7 ebook. Robert Plank recently reported that he made $30,000 in one month primarily by selling his own products with his own copy. The interesting thing is that he readily admits that he doesn't write "great" copy. He states, in fact, that it's just "good enough." So, sometimes, "good enough" really is good enough.

    Copywriters charge based on their ability and experience level, their portfolio, and what the market will bear. I strongly suspect that there is a need for copywriting services all across the price spectrum. So suggesting a minimum price seems silly and self-serving.

    You don't see John Carlton, Dan Kennedy, or Clayton Makepeace in here complaining about low-priced copy, do you? Nope. If you're a good mid or high-end copywriter, there's no need to berate the little fishes...

    Can't the low, mid, and high-end copywriters just get along?

    Johnny
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[812857].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
      Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

      Robert Plank recently reported that he made $30,000 in one month primarily by selling his own products with his own copy. The interesting thing is that he readily admits that he doesn't write "great" copy. He states, in fact, that it's just "good enough." So, sometimes, "good enough" really is good enough.
      Actually, Robert is a very good copywriter. Do you know why? Because he's written dozens of sales letters. This gets back to the 10,000 hours of practice john_s is talking about.

      I THOUGHT I knew how to write copy after reading all the classic books. When I actually put it in practice, I didn't know squat about actually applying what I'd learned. I would say it took me 2 dozen sales letters before I really got it. And I'm a smart SOB that has always been considered a good writer.

      As for "good enough" being good enough, that's another debate. I'll tell you this much, no multimillion dollar direct marketing company thinks like that.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813130].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
        Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

        Actually, Robert is a very good copywriter. Do you know why? Because he's written dozens of sales letters. This gets back to the 10,000 hours of practice john_s is talking about.

        I THOUGHT I knew how to write copy after reading all the classic books. When I actually put it in practice, I didn't know squat about actually applying what I'd learned. I would say it took me 2 dozen sales letters before I really got it. And I'm a smart SOB that has always been considered a good writer.

        As for "good enough" being good enough, that's another debate. I'll tell you this much, no multimillion dollar direct marketing company thinks like that.
        Bruce,

        Then we agree. I think Robert's good, too. But, before he became a good copywriter, he didn't hire Clayton Makepeace to write his sales letters. He didn't need that level of expertise. However, a multi-million dollar company might, very well, call Clayton or Carlton.

        My point was, simply, that a demand exists for copywriting services at both low and high price points. So why beat up on the little guys? It seems petty.

        Johnny
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813259].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
          Originally Posted by Johnny12345 View Post

          So why beat up on the little guys? It seems petty.
          Are you saying that I am beating up on "the little guys"?

          I hope not because I don't care at all about them or their prices. I am not for hire but even when I was, my rates continued to rise as the number of cheap copywriters proliferated. And one of the most famous, Nicholas Cole, is a friend of mine.

          My personal opinion, that you're selling yourself short, is something I'm entitled to. It's not beating up on you.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813286].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
            Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

            Are you saying that I am beating up on "the little guys"?
            Bruce,

            No, not you. I was referring to the first post in this thread.

            Johnny
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813333].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author ndcole78
              I think that this is a great post or at least something for us copywriters to talk about.

              Let me first say that if you're looking for good copy, it's true that you'll have a much better chance at conversions by investing more money for your copy, so those like Vin who charge $10,000+, Mike H., Ray Edwards, Bruce Wedding, $4,000 +, they are all worth the money if you can afford to pay it.

              However, I know that on this forum in particular, over 80% of the marketers here are looking for cheap, quick copy, so most of the buyers here won't pay the high fees for copy. These guys, however, are all great at what they do and they should be paid well for it--copywriting is a skill that takes years to master.

              As for me, as my friend Bruce stated, I'm probably the most famous here on cheap copy because I started it, though at the time, I had no idea that I was cutting into the pockets of some copywriters on this forum years ago.

              Had I known that, I probably would have never ever started it---but the trend was headed there anyway.

              With that said---I've always been a writer. i love doing it and I would do it for free sometimes (My wife would kill me though-LOL!) because it makes me happy that others like my ability--Plus I'm affecting their lives using my God-given talent--as long as I don't overwork myself, which I did do with a copywriting membership I created months ago (That was a stupid mistake, so I left that alone).

              Many already know that I could charge thousands of dollars for letters based on my skill level--sometimes I do, most of the times I don't.

              I've seen many copywriters offering cheap letters, but for the most part, the copy is not good---at all.

              For me, I've worked with the best and yes, the gurus who would pay top dollar for copy do come to me--a lot looking for a good deal.

              For example, a few of these guys have been mentioned by a few of you. I've worked with them in the past. Check out a few letters. I spent maybe 3 hours on each of them.

              Robert Plank: Sales Page Tactics with Robert Plank!

              Ewen Chia: Ewen Chia's Instant Bestsellers!

              Folusho Orokunle where he partnered with guru Jermaine Griggs: Internet Marketing Coach|Internet Marketing Consultant

              My point is that you can get a good writer for cheap, but you'll have to search like hell to find one that's really good.

              A little advice copywriters: Don't let anyone dictate to you what to charge your services for---If you feel fine doing it, then do it. It's your business, so run it like YOU want to run it and if you step on a few toes, then that's their problem, so don't feel bad about it. It's business---either you eat or they eat.

              But like most high-charging copywriters always say--You're not taking anything away from them anyway.

              Paying for good copy is the best investment that you can make. if you can find a great writer with a track record of getting clients results and is open to cutting you a deal, then go with him or her.

              But don't settle for a sub-par writer---if you have to pay thousands of dollars, then do it. You'll get your money back and some in profits.

              By the way: Most copywriters situation will be different than mine, but I can afford to charge less for copy because I have 10 streams of income coming in--on and offline with products, services---I even raise cattle and grow pine trees and sell for profit to lumber companies-----that's how I can get away with charging less because it's not my only stream of income.

              I just love writing. i know that it's the gift that God gave me, so I use it to help others--that's how God continues to bless me in all areas of my life.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813728].message }}
    • Removing this post, because apparently it was a futile effort to defend what didn't really need defense in the first place.

      A big warm thank-you to all of those who understood my intentions, and the meaning behind the post.

      - Cherilyn
      Signature
      Take your product from idea to profit in less than 90 days! Work with me to develop and implement a step-by-step plan for success!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[813842].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Cherilyn,

    The thing is... your tone didn't sound like you were really trying to help those poor, unfortunate, low-priced copywriters. Instead, it sounded like you were whining that they were taking away your customers by undercutting you. In other words, your post sounded self-serving.

    But, I stand corrected. Apparently, you were only trying to help. In your last post, your heartfelt "thank you" -- and the happy face at the very end -- helped me see that the venom you spewed was done strictly with the best of intentions. Thank you for shining the light of your elite copywriting wisdom upon us.


    The issue wasn't not respecting YOURSELF for buying a piece of junk. It was not respecting the piece of junk. Tell me, if you drove a car that you paid $100 for, how much would you respect it? Probably about the same as everyone else I know who drives $100 cars - not at all, because it was only $100. You haven't invested much into the vehicle. It doesn't matter to you.
    OK. Now I'm really confused. If I agree to show the $100 car respect, is it then OK to own one? Does the $100 car know -- or even care -- whether I respect it? Will it run better and get better mileage if I respect it? And, if not, what is the price-point cutoff for a car that can be respected? This "respect" theory of yours is rather befuddling. Is it some sort of new-age, "quantum physics" thing?


    No, copywriters do not price based on ability, experience, portfolio, and the market. They price based on VALUE. Yes, all of the above things influence their value, but the bottom line is, with more experience, more ability, a better portfolio, and a better market, a copywriter brings more VALUE to the table and therefore can charge more.
    The above paragraph is priceless. It is, perhaps, the finest example of circular reasoning that I have ever encountered. It should be in logic textbooks. No really, it should.

    But, now, it's confession time...

    In truth, the ONLY reason I replied to your first post was because of your "40 year-old woman at McDonalds" comment. It seemed cold and disparaging. In fact, it actually shocked me a bit. After all, why would you assume that she has no respect for herself? That's what you said -- in capital letters, no less. You said she has "NONE." Why do you assume the worst? Where you see weakness, I see strength. Why is it wrong to assume the best in people?

    If it wasn't for that single comment, I would have been content to let you ramble on about the evils of $197 copy all day long...

    Johnny

    P.S. Oops... I almost forgot to add a happy face.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[816183].message }}
  • *sigh* Okay, you know what - my entire post was off base. It was entirely self serving, because I really want clients who can't afford my fees to stretch their family budgets and try to scrape it together. Those are my ideal clients, and you know it.

    C'mon, Johnny - you know the point I was getting at. If you don't respect the car, or the gadget, or the copywriter, you're going to beat the heck out of it and toss it at the first opportunity because it is replaceable. If you invest in it, you're going to respect it more, right? Why is that so hard to understand?

    I'm editing my original post, and removing the reference to the McDonalds worker. Maybe I'm wrong - maybe she does have more self respect than I could possibly imagine. That is beside the point.

    Thank you for turning a constructive discussion, however, into a discussion of my intentions with the post. It is much appreciated.

    $197 copy isn't evil. It is fine. But for people who take their copywriting career seriously, or their business seriously, I'm trying to encourage them to invest more into it - because they will get more out of it.

    Maybe respect wasn't the right word. Maybe it was "value" I was reaching for. Either way...

    Oh yeah - happy face.

    - Cherilyn
    Signature
    Take your product from idea to profit in less than 90 days! Work with me to develop and implement a step-by-step plan for success!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[816249].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim Franklin
      Wow, Good discussion reminds me of the old days back in the old forum.

      I tried to read through most of the posts, out of respect to the thread and the content that is being discussed, I really hate to see someone come in and comment without really attempting to read what is going on, usually a person like that ends up making a donkey's rear end out of themselves.


      So I did my due diligence, I even re-read the OPs post three times to get a better feel for what was being said.

      For the most part it sort of looked like a battle of the copywriters, who is the best and so on and so forth.

      ( before you pull out the fire extinguisher, make sure you read and understand the follow sentence before getting out your fire AX)


      We live in a different world, some of us are in the USA some are in other countries, in the USA, you can drive for about an hour and be in a totally different place and climate,)

      I learned something from a man who was in the marketing world back in the 1980s long before most people here were even online.

      I asked a wise man a question about one of his marketing products, it was a question about how so many people were copying his product and making money from his original idea, I asked doesn't this bother you that people are making money and your not?

      He told me that first what made me think that he was not making money?

      (I had an ah hah moment then, and right after that he floored me with what he had to say next)

      " There is plenty of business for everyone out there..."

      I have to admit my mouth dropped open when it finally hit me, now keep in mind this was in 1988, things have definitely changed over the years.

      We live in a different world, the days of the million dollar website are GONE FOREVER,

      but does that mean that you cant make a living selling websites?

      No why would it, but it does mean that you have to work within what the market will bear, that is how the free market works.

      Now I said all that stuff just to make this one point.

      Speaking from a clients perspective, the only thing that really matters is the results you can guarantee me.

      I mean, think of it this way, you hire a copy writer, you pay them, a decent wage for their work, and nothing happens.

      You dont make any sales, you dont get any subscribers, nothing, its like a black whole and you cant seem to get anything going.

      So really, when do you get to the point where copy writing makes a difference, is it when you become profitable?

      Because often it does not matter how good the copy writer is, what really matters is the results you get.

      If you are professional and can give a reference, I mean a real reference, like I worked on this project, before I came on board, they had
      sales of only $50.00 for six months, after my super fantastic and might I add well worth the high price talent, my client made one million dollars.

      Here is a copy of the sales report where we had to pay the IRS our taxes, here is a copy of the 1099 form.

      ****************************

      Now at this point, I have my wallet out I am ready to spend $35,000.00 to hire you....

      Not because, I believe in how good you say you are but you have the references to prove you can make a difference for my products.

      Until that point, you have made no impression on me at all, I dont care if you charge $10.00 or $100,000.00

      If you have no clout and you have no real experience, you cannot expect to charge a huge fee.

      Realistically there are only a few professionals in this business, they are usually a Guild member and have an agent.

      *****************************

      The OP made a few statements some of which I agree with some I dont, but the real point here is that in the REAL world you would never find
      a professional in a forum like this at all, so really the price for copywriting is not an issue at all, because you really can get it for $10 bucks but
      what have you got at the end of the day, YES my friends, you have a $10.00 Sales page.

      *****************************

      So really it matters not, because there is a need for those 10 buck sales pages, and there is a need for the more expensive sales pages.

      The point, hey there is room enough for everyone and if you have to lower your fees to get work so be it, we do live in a different world and its changing all the time

      Have a good day, hope this was of some help to someone,) and if it was not helpful dont feel like you have to tell me about it, LOL
      Signature
      Bitcoin | Crypto | Blockchain Secrets |
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851803].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author arfasaira
      A great thread to mull over! This is especially relevant for me since I am going to be offering my copywriting services on the WSO section soon.

      I am trying to look at it from all angles and can and DO understand everyone's point here. When I started out as a freelance writer, I was being paid a pittance. I now never ever work for less than $75/hr because I know I can. I didn't get there overnight though.

      The proof is in the pudding. You should definitely charge what you think you are worth. That said, when building your portfolio, you may do work for free (like I have done) to then upsell your other services (which I have done quite well) and charge properly.

      I wrote a sales letter for a client for free...he was so impressed that he got me to do his autoresponders for him...which I charged quite a bit for. He didn't mind paying because he knew he was getting value for money.

      That said, when I do launch my WSO, I am not going to charge anywhere near what I know its worth because I want to prove I can do a great job. That's why I am going to limit my client intake to 5 and then hike the price up.

      I am sure quite a few of you have probably done something similar. As for every other newbie out there, get your samples and experience and then get hiking with the price. Once others see what value you bring to the table, they will be only too happy to pay your rates.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2842229].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author senve
    Banned
    [DELETED]
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817467].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
      Originally Posted by senve View Post

      i feel that the whole point of this thread, started by copywriters, is to somehow install some kind of monopol in rising up the prices that copywriters ask for the sales letter...

      that copywriters should be so extremely very big paid...

      and only almost copywriters posting here... no surprise...
      senve, I think you misunderstood.

      See, I don't have any kind of problem with copywriters who charge less...
      and I also don't mind people hiring them.

      In fact, I even "redirect" some of my prospects (whose budget doesn't
      come up to my range) to other good copywriters who charge less.

      One of the main reasons copywriters must charge a decent fee
      is that they won't have to write 15-20 letters a month to make ends meet
      and hence can do justice to every project they take up.

      I think you'll agree that writing copy is not easy.

      So charging a bit higher will help the copywriter enjoy his task, enabling
      him to write better copy - copy that converts better and makes more money for YOU.


      - Dean
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817565].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author senve
        Banned
        [DELETED]
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817885].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
          Theres one thing that really puzzles me about copywriters and I still haven't got to the bottom of it.

          I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm genuinely curious...

          Your prices and results are often the source of much tension...

          It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

          You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

          So...

          Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

          Considering that you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs, "working preferences" doesn't wash as an argument.

          Can someone please enlighten me as to which part of the puzzle you are missing that will pull in millions a year from your own products?

          What is stopping you having a stable of your own products, WITH EQUITY, which you can sell at will?

          Why are you still (admittedly highly paid) wage slaves running around a hamster wheel?

          I genuinely don't get it.

          All the best

          Barry
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[848790].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
            Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

            Theres one thing that really puzzles me about copywriters and I still haven't got to the bottom of it.

            I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm genuinely curious...

            Your prices and results are often the source of much tension...

            It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

            You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

            So...

            Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

            Considering that you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs, "working preferences" doesn't wash as an argument.

            Can someone please enlighten me as to which part of the puzzle you are missing that will pull in millions a year from your own products?

            What is stopping you having a stable of your own products, WITH EQUITY, which you can sell at will?

            Why are you still (admittedly highly paid) wage slaves running around a hamster wheel?

            I genuinely don't get it.

            All the best

            Barry



            Because running a business has 3 components - and if you want to have
            no real employees (or the hassles of having them) you need to make
            compromises.

            They are:

            1. Product
            2. Customer service
            3. Marketing

            Coming from a hard-goods "real business" background I drove myself
            to exhaustion trying to juggle all 3 simultaneously. For business owners
            who already have their hands full making sure they can deliver a
            competitive product and keep their customers happy spending the
            TIME to become expert enough at marketing and copywriting subtleties
            is often just too much to ask. Many business owners who understand
            this reality realize they COULD in fact become marketing/copy experts
            but would have to either delegate the other aspects of their businesses
            (and some do) or work insane hours and miss-out on being with their
            families and even run their health down.

            Do you see why there is a market for good copywriters now?

            Can you see why choosing to write copy as a freelance provider
            is not only possibly lucrative, but a business decision arrived at
            based on the lifestyle we want?

            For a writer, doing commercial writing (which is what copywriting is)
            is generally more lucrative than writing fiction or journalism... so
            for folks who are talented at or just like the working life of a writer
            freelancing in copy can be a good option.

            Of course you have to run it like a real business, and not all copywriters
            are brilliant at product creation for the internet - that doesn't mean
            we aren't writing books of our own or working on long-term things
            on the side.

            I don't perceive myself as having the time or interest to change directions
            to reposition myself as a financial expert, a weight-loss expert, or go
            to medical school so I can put on a labcoat and say I'm "Dr. Woirhaye"
            to sell vitamins - but here's a tip: those are the big ones, and the
            big-shots in all those mega-niches hire copywriters and in some cases
            the copywriters themselves are earning millions... so freelancing in itself
            can turn into a million-dollar business, without creating your own products
            even.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[849035].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
              Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

              Because running a business has 3 components - and if you want to have
              no real employees (or the hassles of having them) you need to make
              compromises.

              They are:

              1. Product
              2. Customer service
              3. Marketing

              Coming from a hard-goods "real business" background I drove myself
              to exhaustion trying to juggle all 3 simultaneously. For business owners
              who already have their hands full making sure they can deliver a
              competitive product and keep their customers happy spending the
              TIME to become expert enough at marketing and copywriting subtleties
              is often just too much to ask. Many business owners who understand
              this reality realize they COULD in fact become marketing/copy experts
              but would have to either delegate the other aspects of their businesses
              (and some do) or work insane hours and miss-out on being with their
              families and even run their health down.

              Do you see why there is a market for good copywriters now?

              Can you see why choosing to write copy as a freelance provider
              is not only possibly lucrative, but a business decision arrived at
              based on the lifestyle we want?

              For a writer, doing commercial writing (which is what copywriting is)
              is generally more lucrative than writing fiction or journalism... so
              for folks who are talented at or just like the working life of a writer
              freelancing in copy can be a good option.

              Of course you have to run it like a real business, and not all copywriters
              are brilliant at product creation for the internet - that doesn't mean
              we aren't writing books of our own or working on long-term things
              on the side.

              I don't perceive myself as having the time or interest to change directions
              to reposition myself as a financial expert, a weight-loss expert, or go
              to medical school so I can put on a labcoat and say I'm "Dr. Woirhaye"
              to sell vitamins - but here's a tip: those are the big ones, and the
              big-shots in all those mega-niches hire copywriters and in some cases
              the copywriters themselves are earning millions... so freelancing in itself
              can turn into a million-dollar business, without creating your own products
              even.
              I hear what you're saying...I still think that someone who is looking to hire a copywriter could lessen their own risk by narrowing their search to include only copywriters who do for themselves what they claim to be able to do for others?

              Do you see why?

              All the best

              Barry

              Edit:

              Also Loren...I enjoy reading your posts...and am a little surprised that an issue personal expertise is holding you back. Infact...I'm flabbergasted to hear you say it.
              Signature

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[849140].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
                Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

                I hear what you're saying...I still think that someone who is looking to hire a copywriter could lessen their own risk by narrowing their search to include only copywriters who do for themselves what they claim to be able to do for others?

                Do you see why?

                All the best

                Barry

                Edit:

                Also Loren...I enjoy reading your posts...and am a little surprised that an issue personal expertise is holding you back. Infact...I'm flabbergasted to hear you say it.

                It's an issue of time and priorities, I think - other Warriors
                may be way more effective than I am at managing their
                own time and projects... I'm something of a turtle in that
                I'm methodical and slow to get prepared but I do get
                stuff together eventually.

                Too much a perfectionist in some ways I guess - definitely
                not the "throw some mud on the wall and see what sticks"
                kind of guy. I'm also a control freak so I'm averse to not
                having my hands all over anything I put out there... something
                I do need to come into greater balance with to grow
                further - but all in good time.

                In fact you may see me rolling-out some alternative health
                stuff at some point and thinking "where does this guy
                get this crazy stuff?" ___ ultimately I would personally
                rather not work with clients at all but I am learning from
                it and it does finance things I want to do and help with
                goals I have that have nothing to do with making money.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[849278].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
                  Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

                  It's an issue of time and priorities, I think - other Warriors
                  may be way more effective than I am at managing their
                  own time and projects... I'm something of a turtle in that
                  I'm methodical and slow to get prepared but I do get
                  stuff together eventually.

                  Too much a perfectionist in some ways I guess - definitely
                  not the "throw some mud on the wall and see what sticks"
                  kind of guy. I'm also a control freak so I'm averse to not
                  having my hands all over anything I put out there... something
                  I do need to come into greater balance with to grow
                  further - but all in good time.

                  Although in many respects, he was an ignorant douche, (or worse) when FDR said "there is nothing to fear but fear itself", it was one of the most succinct, insightful, all encompassing, most immediately applicable observations about the human condition that has ever been made IMO. (written by a copywriter don't you know!...if you have their name, I'd love to know it).

                  Perfectionism is thinly disguised fear. It is to be feared and rooted out like the traitor it is. It repeatedly stabs you in the back while it smiles in your face.

                  If you were my brother, I would say this to you.

                  Identify the root fear, deal with it and cut it loose once and for all. Don't delay.

                  I'd love to see your alternative health product when you bring it out. I'm into that.

                  Remember me.

                  All the best

                  Barry

                  Edit: Loren...I asked which piece of the puzzle was missing....and you seem to have answered that question in a personal way. It is your perfectionism/need for control and your (current) lack of project management skills which are holding you back. Is that a fair comment?
                  Signature

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[849515].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author bobbly
                    Many of the top copywriters -- charging $10,000 or more per later -- don't have (or at one time in their careers did not have) their own products. These writers, guys like Herschell Lewis and David Deutsch, regularly produce record-breaking controls for Boardroom, Prentice Hall, and other big direct marketers. They simply prefer copywriting to running a business. Not sure what you don't get about that. If a copywriter has a stable of controls running, why do you care that they are for other people's products and not the writer's own?
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850336].message }}
                    • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
                      Originally Posted by bobbly View Post

                      Many of the top copywriters -- charging $10,000 or more per later -- don't have (or at one time in their careers did not have) their own products.
                      I just decided to be a top copywriter. Today, I don't have my own product, therefore I fit into your statement.

                      How about this for a statement...

                      "The majority of the top 20% of copywriters do have their own products and the majority of the the bottom 20% don't."

                      Unfortunately, it's the bottom 20% who cause all the aggro in places like this.

                      All the best

                      Barry
                      Signature

                      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850677].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
            Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

            Theres one thing that really puzzles me about copywriters and I still haven't got to the bottom of it.

            I'm not trying to be argumentative here...I'm genuinely curious...

            Your prices and results are often the source of much tension...

            It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

            You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

            So...

            Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?

            Considering that you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs, "working preferences" doesn't wash as an argument.

            Can someone please enlighten me as to which part of the puzzle you are missing that will pull in millions a year from your own products?

            What is stopping you having a stable of your own products, WITH EQUITY, which you can sell at will?

            Why are you still (admittedly highly paid) wage slaves running around a hamster wheel?

            I genuinely don't get it.

            All the best

            Barry
            Barry,

            Writing a piece of copy is, say, 40 hours work.

            For argument's sake, let's say you get $4000 for that copy - $100 an hour.

            Creating a product, driving traffic, setting up a marketing funnel - all these things are very different skills. Just because you can write great copy doesn't mean you can sell your own product (though, admittedly, anyone can learn these skills).

            Sure, most of us do both, but writing copy for others is appealing for a lot of reasons.

            One, we focus on doing the bit we genuinely enjoy - not all the other crap that goes with it. Sure, you can outsource, but it's SO DAMN HARD to find someone who will do a good job... and even then monitoring that stuff takes a LOT of time.

            Second, you can jump around a lot between different niches. You're always creating a new USP, angle, hook... whatever. In a nutshell, it's FUN, whereas personally I find a lot of other parts of marketing my own stuff (writing articles, viewing stats, promoting my affiliate offers, getting affiliates, playing with Adwords, writing emails... etc etc) is not.

            Thirdly, most high-paid copywriters work on royalties as well. Someone like Michel Fortin gets probably around $50k for a letter plus a percentage of sales... without having to do anything except write the letter.

            The poor understanding that you seem to have is that we simply create a "job" for ourselves.

            Understand that no matter what you do in IM, it takes work. That work generates income. Now, if you're talking about RESIDUAL income as opposed to "regular" income, then I can kind of see where you're coming from. But the "big money" is in huge launches... that take a LOT of work to set up. Sure, you can generate money non-stop from a lot of products, but it's not nearly as impressive as the craploads people make from launches.

            We are in business, just like anyone else, and it's our own business. Just because it's a service-based business doesn't mean it's a bad idea. There are pros and cons for both sides, but ultimately, here's the crux of it:

            You have to do something that makes you happy.

            That's why there are so many different methods of making money in this game - everyone enjoys a different way. It's not just about the money - it's about the lifestyle. And who wants to work their butts off in a job they hate?

            That's why most of us got into IM in the first place.

            -Dan
            Signature

            Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850175].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
            Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

            It seems to me the you are rational, profit maximising entrepreneurs...so...

            You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

            So...

            Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?
            Barry I think you've made two crucial errors here.

            1. Many copywriters do NOT have an entrepreneurial mindset.

            They're just like top salespeople who appear to be able to "write their own" ticket yet still work for someone else.

            Copywriting is salesmanship in print, not entrepreneurship.

            "Working preferences" might sound like a silly argument to you and me, because we are entrepreneurs, but for someone who has always worked a job and doesn't see themselves as a "business owner" it's a valid argument.

            (That's also the reason most copywriters are flat broke -- they simply don't know how to run a copywriting business!)

            2. Many copywriters do NOT know much about traffic generation, product creation, or anything to do with launches.

            All of those are different skills that must be learned.

            Now, that said...

            The best copywriters do tend to be both entrepreneurial and have a wider set of marketing skills.

            (e.g. Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert, Carlton and Tully all have their own products )

            And of course, because they have their own products and revenue-generating businesses besides their client work, and because they have a wider range of skills, they are more valuable to a business owner and can command premium copywriting fees.
            Signature
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850860].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
              Originally Posted by Kyle Tully View Post

              Barry I think you've made two crucial errors here.

              1. Many copywriters do NOT have an entrepreneurial mindset.

              They're just like top salespeople who appear to be able to "write their own" ticket yet still work for someone else.

              Copywriting is salesmanship in print, not entrepreneurship.

              "Working preferences" might sound like a silly argument to you and me, because we are entrepreneurs, but for someone who has always worked a job and doesn't see themselves as a "business owner" it's a valid argument.

              (That's also the reason most copywriters are flat broke -- they simply don't know how to run a copywriting business!)

              2. Many copywriters do NOT know much about traffic generation, product creation, or anything to do with launches.

              All of those are different skills that must be learned.

              Now, that said...

              The best copywriters do tend to be both entrepreneurial and have a wider set of marketing skills.

              (e.g. Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert, Carlton and Tully all have their own products )

              And of course, because they have their own products and revenue-generating businesses besides their client work, and because they have a wider range of skills, they are more valuable to a business owner and can command premium copywriting fees.
              You've hit the nail on the head....I don't get the mindset of not learning the skills to make more money.

              I don't want to hire some guy with beer mats in his shoes who is telling me how he can make me more money.

              Tully eh? Up there with the big boys.

              All the best

              Barry
              Signature

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850904].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author David Raybould
    Senve-

    That's the second time I've seen you
    hint at the idea that copywriters should
    be paid less than we are.

    How much do you think we should get?

    I'm not trying to be difficult or start an
    argument. I genuinely couldn't care
    less how much other writers charge,
    which is why I haven't gotten involved
    in the rest of this thread...

    Why do you think we should get paid
    less than we do?

    Please enlighten me.

    -David Raybould
    Signature
    Killer Emails. Cash-spewing VSLs. Turbocharged Landing Pages.

    Whatever you need, my high converting copy puts more money in your pocket. PM for details. 10 years experience and 9 figure revenues.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[817646].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author David Raybould
    Hi Barry.

    Some of us do both.

    But as for those that don't I've no
    idea why not.

    I guess if you get into it, it may be
    the same reason why in the IM world
    you get some guys who are product
    owners, and some that are affiliates.

    Other than that it's anybody's guess.

    -David Raybould
    Signature
    Killer Emails. Cash-spewing VSLs. Turbocharged Landing Pages.

    Whatever you need, my high converting copy puts more money in your pocket. PM for details. 10 years experience and 9 figure revenues.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[848862].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
      Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?
      IMHO, why many copywriters do this is because writing for different products
      and a wide range of niches can be really exciting.

      Writing for clients has helped me learn a lot of new things which I otherwise
      would not have known.

      Secondly, not all people enjoy creating products. In that case it's a lot easier
      to write for someone else's product instead of having to create a product
      and then write copy for it.

      Finally, writing copy is an easier and faster way to get paid.

      When you write copy for established clients and companies they already have
      a marketing system in place, so you don't have to deal with the traffic
      generation, etc.


      Hope this clears it up a bit,


      Regards,

      Dean.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[848875].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
        Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli View Post

        IMHO, why many copywriters do this is because writing for different products
        and a wide range of niches can be really exciting.

        Writing for clients has helped me learn a lot of new things which I otherwise
        would not have known.

        Secondly, not all people enjoy creating products. In that case it's a lot easier
        to write for someone else's product instead of having to create a product
        and then write copy for it.

        Finally, writing copy is an easier and faster way to get paid.

        When you write copy for established clients and companies they already have
        a marketing system in place, so you don't have to deal with the traffic
        generation, etc.


        Hope this clears it up a bit,


        Regards,

        Dean.
        This is the answer I was expecting...I honestly struggle to believe this. It just doesn't make sense.

        David Raybould's answer is much more realistic, transparent, honest and believable.

        A copywriter with his own products is a much safer bet. Why not create a simple product you can show to clients? Do you think you would be able to increase your fees once you show your own products converting at massive%?

        It doesnt make sense NOT to do this IMO.

        If you're going to hire a copywriter, ask to see THEIR products and a screen shot of their analytics account before you hand over a dime.

        If they can't get their own pages to convert at X%....what chance do you have to that they'll get yours to convert? This is easily the best way to sort the wheat from the chaff...IMHO.

        "What? You don't have your own products? You don't use analytics...what time can I call you tomorrow about your $10,000 fee".

        Click.

        All the best

        Barry
        Signature

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[849027].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
          Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

          This is the answer I was expecting...I honestly struggle to believe this. It just doesn't make sense.

          David Raybould's answer is much more realistic, transparent, honest and believable.

          A copywriter with his own products is a much safer bet. Why not create a simple product you can show to clients? Do you think you would be able to increase your fees once you show your own products converting at massive%?

          It doesnt make sense NOT to do this IMO.

          If you're going to hire a copywriter, ask to see THEIR products and a screen shot of their analytics account before you hand over a dime.

          If they can't get their own pages to convert at X%....what chance do you have to that they'll get yours to convert? This is easily the best way to sort the wheat from the chaff...IMHO.

          "What? You don't have your own products? You don't use analytics...what time can I call you tomorrow about your $10,000 fee".

          Click.

          All the best

          Barry
          With that line of thinking you wouldn't be hiring most of the biggest name copywriters -- online or offline.

          Here's a great example: A List copywriter Doug D'Anna rarely sends out an ezine... he's told me himself that he has a PILE of control pieces that need copy written for his own web store but he doesn't have time. He's booked with client projects for the next YEAR. And at $50K plus royalties, do you understand why he's not in a rush to create his own products? That's not counting the time he needs to put in as a husband and parent either.

          David Garfinkel is a well-known copywriter. He's even more known as a master teacher of copywriter and quite expensive to be mentored by as well. Last time I heard, it was over $20K for training with him. Other copywriting gurus like John Carlton frequently ask David to teach at their seminars too. I'm sure he gets some serious cash for his time at those seminars as well.

          He RARELY creates new products and the ones I know of are usually copywriting related which are $1K or more. Again, with the fees he's pulling down, he doesn't need to:

          1) Identify a new niche to go over
          2) Establish an expert status in that niche
          3) Hire a ghostwriter or study the niche well enough to create credible products.
          4) Worry about driving traffic to his own sales page
          5) Worry about customer service and/or tech support
          6) Worry about product fulfillment
          7) Figure out what software to use to run an affiliate program... and who is going to admin the program.
          8) Set up and manage his PPC campaigns... or analytics for that matter.
          9) Every other info product task that I neglected to mention.

          As Daniel said, many of the copywriters with strong track records spend 40 hours or more on a project. That's outside of family commitments too.

          I'm fully booked with client projects for the next 2-3 months. If I'm lucky, I'll get 4 info products of my own launched this year -- maybe.

          I could throw out a bunch of well-known copywriters and their packed schedules but I think you see my point.

          I've done my 110 hour work weeks for many years. Way too many in fact.

          If I wanted to continue to work that hard, I wouldn't have become an info product marketer and copywriter.

          Hope that helps,

          Mike
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850253].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
            Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

            With that line of thinking you wouldn't be hiring most of the biggest name copywriters -- online or offline.

            Here's a great example: A List copywriter Doug D'Anna rarely sends out an ezine... he's told me himself that he has a PILE of control pieces that need copy written for his own web store but he doesn't have time. He's booked with client projects for the next YEAR. And at $50K plus royalties, do you understand why he's not in a rush to create his own products? That's not counting the time he needs to put in as a husband and parent either.

            David Garfinkel is a well-known copywriter. He's even more known as a master teacher of copywriter and quite expensive to be mentored by as well. Last time I heard, it was over $20K for training with him. Other copywriting gurus like John Carlton frequently ask David to teach at their seminars too. I'm sure he gets some serious cash for his time at those seminars as well.

            He RARELY creates new products and the ones I know of are usually copywriting related which are $1K or more. Again, with the fees he's pulling down, he doesn't need to:

            1) Identify a new niche to go over
            2) Establish an expert status in that niche
            3) Hire a ghostwriter or study the niche well enough to create credible products.
            4) Worry about driving traffic to his own sales page
            5) Worry about customer service and/or tech support
            6) Worry about product fulfillment
            7) Figure out what software to use to run an affiliate program... and who is going to admin the program.
            8) Set up and manage his PPC campaigns... or analytics for that matter.
            9) Every other info product task that I neglected to mention.

            As Daniel said, many of the copywriters with strong track records spend 40 hours or more on a project. That's outside of family commitments too.

            I'm fully booked with client projects for the next 2-3 months. If I'm lucky, I'll get 4 info products of my own launched this year -- maybe.

            I could throw out a bunch of well-known copywriters and their packed schedules but I think you see my point.

            Mike
            I don't see your point. You're making my point.

            These top guys have products. You have your own products too.

            What is your point?

            All the best

            Barry

            EDIT: Daniel, you seem to be saying that you aren't capable of putting together product launches for yourself, so you don't enjoy the huge profits you know they bring? The reason for this is because it is too much work and you lack skills to pull it off/hire good people.

            This is the piece of the puzzle you're missing. Is that a fair comment?
            Signature

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850683].message }}
  • Brandon - you captured the original sentiment of my post very clearly. Thank you!
    Signature
    Take your product from idea to profit in less than 90 days! Work with me to develop and implement a step-by-step plan for success!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850041].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author bobbly
    I am reminded of John Ruskin's quote, which is roughly: "There is always someone who can do the job worse and be a little cheaper to hire. And people who buy on price alone are this person's lawful prey."
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850314].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Barry,

    All I'm getting at is that there are multiple ways to run a business... your way is not the "right" way.

    It's not just strictly a monetary proposition. If it was, this would be a simple mathematical calculation... but it's not. It's also about what you feel comfortable doing, what you enjoy doing, etc etc etc.

    Regarding my skills, I do have some of my own products. One thing I have learned is it's much easier to write copy for others than it is for yourself, as you're a step removed when you write for others - you approach it from a fresher perspective. That may just be my experience though.

    Having said that, copywriting is my "forte"... I can do the other stuff but I'm no "master" at it.

    Now, for launches, you've gotta get JVs. And they're not always easy to get, especially if it's a new product, and you have no established track record in that niche. Heck, some niches just aren't as incestuous as IM, so you have to work your butt off for each and every launch partner you get (and hope that they know what they're doing).

    In some niches I'd be amazed if there was more than 3 people who knew what they were doing enough to bring in serious profits.

    Sure, creating your own products can make you more money. It's also more work, and, more importantly, it's a different kettle of fish - one you may not enjoy nearly as much as just writing copy.

    I don't understand why this is so hard for you to grasp. Not everyone WANTS to have the hassle of creating their own stuff... some people just like to be a high-paid copywriter for hire.

    And there's nothing wrong with that.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850778].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
    It's not hard to grasp at all...I talked about "working preferences" in my first post.

    I just don't find it convincing...for rational entrepreneurs. Some copywriters may be irrational or generally poor business people...no problem. Theres no more reason why all writers should be outstanding business people or logical profit maximizers that there is for why plumbers should be.

    You have answered the question and clearly highlighted the skills/disposition you lack to do your own products.

    Still...I beleive having your own products is pretty smart. Proof/walking the walk/seeing the big picture.

    There are still very strong arguments for removing non product owners from your hiring circle...EDIT...and a lack of very strong arguments for including non product owners in your hiring circle...other than price....which should be MUCH less.

    You don't work to maximize your profit, you work because you enjoy it and its what you want to do. The lower earn rate you get becuase of this shouldn't bother you...so its Ok....yes?

    Its ok...but its not optimal...but you're ok with earning much less than you could with a little extra effort.

    As you say, there are many ways to run a business.

    All the best

    Barry
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850858].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
      Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

      It's not hard to grasp at all...I talked about "working preferences" in my first post.

      I just don't find it convincing...for rational entrepreneurs. Some copywriters may be irrational or generally poor business people...no problem. Theres no more reason why all writers should be outstanding business people or logical profit maximizers that there is for why plumbers should be.

      You have answered the question and clearly highlighted the skills/disposition you lack to do your own products.

      Still...I beleive having your own products is pretty smart. Proof/walking the walk/seeing the big picture.

      There are still very strong arguments for removing non product owners from your hiring circle...EDIT...and a lack of very strong arguments for including non product owners in your hiring circle...other than price....which should be MUCH less.

      You don't work to maximize your profit, you work because you enjoy it and its what you want to do. The lower earn rate you get becuase of this shouldn't bother you...so its Ok....yes?

      Its ok...but its not optimal...but you're ok with earning much less than you could with a little extra effort.

      As you say, there are many ways to run a business.

      All the best

      Barry
      First of all, I HAVE my own products, and to be honest I'm getting sick of the bullshit condescending attitude you have.

      I'll say this one more time:

      YOUR WAY IS NOT THE "RIGHT" WAY!

      Secondly... as others have mentioned... many copywriters don't have their own products.

      If I want proof they can write letters that convert, I can ask them for that... doesn't mean that they have to have their own products.

      I don't give a crap if my hairdresser cuts her own hair... but I want her to be able to do mine.

      Let's take Vin Montello as an example. As far as I know, he doesn't have his own products. Yet he routinely gets $13k+ per letter and has a backlog of clients... because he's good at what he does.

      If you really want to get into a pissing contest about whether being a copywriter is better or worse than being an infoproduct creator, then let us know what YOU make... I am willing to bet that most copywriters on this forum would trounce it... maybe that will give you some humility, since money seems to be the only thing you're worried about.

      But hey, while we're on the subject, let's make sure everyone understands that money is the only driving factor in life. I'm going to go down to my local hospital and tell all the nurses they should be doctors. It pays better. So what if you have to work longer hours, harder, are under a lot more pressure, and need a completely different set of skills? Screw it!

      I'm going to tell my mechanic he should have been a lawyer because the pay's better. Sure, he may enjoy what he does and have a good lifestyle, but let's face it, he could be earning a lot more - he's an idiot!

      If you think being a "copywriter" is a bad idea, then great, don't do it.

      Just drop the attitude that you know better than the copywriters on this forum, some of whom are the most brilliant marketers on this planet... because I'd bet anything you don't.

      -Dan
      Signature

      Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850946].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    I'll add my .02.

    I've owned (and still own) products in all kinds of niches over the last few years.

    I've got at least 12 products on the plate right now that I want (make that NEED) to be working on... Because I'm confident they'll be winners and make me more money than my standard copywriting fees... If you're looking at a "per letter'" basis.

    BUT... I HATE writing products... And copywriting is something I'm fascinated with. I seriously get a kick... a rush, out of looking at a clients project and business model, and figuring out how I can make them more money.

    A client approaches me with a very cool product that I have a lot of ideas for. They're offering $x amount upfront... I get excited about getting this product sold.

    With my own projects, there's no deadline, and no money upfront... More profitable long term, yes...

    But there's a whole other can of worms... Ad buys, JV's, customer service... Outsourcing if you can find the talent to meet your standards for your product.

    For me, right now, my products take a backseat to client projects... And that's a personal choice.

    I could definitely make more money by focusing on my projects and long term residual income.

    At the same time, when a client has cash in hand... And I'm getting to do the job I love more than any other when it comes to marketing, which is copywriting, it's a win/win.

    I've focused more on client projects than my own over the last few months because, to be honest, it's fun for me.

    I love writing copy for other people. With my own products I'm worried about every last detail... I want people to get something AMAZING for their money. And that's tough to outsource, so that leaves me stuck doing the product creation part too.

    I'm a "temporary copywriter" though...

    Over the next year I'm devoting at least 50% of my time, probably much more, to my own publishing company. (Right now my income from copywriting and my own products is right at 50/50.)

    And once that's accomplished, I doubt I'll do any copywriting or consulting. When/If I do, it'll be based on fees that make it worth my time.

    Your argument is a good one... "If your so great, why don't you work for yourself?"

    A lot of us are... When you understand business and emotional direct response it just makes sense.

    So when you find a Vin Montello or a David Raybould or a Loren or a Mike or ANY copywriter who has proven results and are willing to work with you, consider yourself lucky.

    Because these guys/girls have an extremely rare talent... A talent that converts traffic into paying customers.

    And for whatever reason, they prefer to offer that talent as a service... And it still makes them money.

    I make money when I write copy, and my clients make money. It's win/win.

    But I'm shifting my business model to around 90% passive income on personal projects, with about 10% copywriting/consulting on the side.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that at least half of the world's highest paid copywriters make the majority of their income as marketers, not freelancers... And if you can hire them it's going to cost you big time.

    And my biggest tip for "wannabe" copywriters would be to go create a product, sell it, and then PROVE to your potential clients that you're capable of selling their product as well.

    There you go... A super long post about why you're exactly right, you should look into hiring a copywriter who markets their own products.

    It's not always going to be easy though... Look at say Yanik Silver... Started out as a copywriter and now he's a superstar... Good luck hiring him without an insane budget.

    Another example, Vin Montello, from this forum... I've researched that guy to death, I know some of the biggest letters he's written.

    The only products I've seen him offer are service oriented... But he's a millionaire maker.

    Take Billy Mays as another example... The guy didn't invent the "Awesome Auger" or anything else I know of, but he can sell the **** out of them.

    Copywriting is salesmanship in print. Copywriters (Real copywriters) know how to sell... And we make people absurd amounts of money, and in return make pretty decent money ourselves.

    It's not unlike a regular sales person... "Show me a product I can sell, I'll sell it, you pay me."

    You don't necessarily need to find a copywriter selling their own products, they may be more interested in selling themselves... And if they're good they can show a history of proven results.

    Your posts really boil down to "Why don't you use your marketing magic on your own products"...

    And that's a great question... Here's the answer.

    For some of us, we have a passion for copywriting... And that's our product. It's a service oriented business, and it pays well. There's nothing wrong with that.

    Should you look for a copywriter who's sold their own products? Not necessarily.

    Should you look for a copywriter with a proven track record? Definitely.

    Hope that gives you some insight from our perspective.

    Thanks,

    -Scott
    Signature

    Over $30 Million In Marketing Data And A Decade Of Consistently Generating Breakthrough Results - Ask How My Unique Approach To Copy Typically Outsells Traditional Ads By Up To 29x Or More...

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850870].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
    to illustrate this...

    If I was hiring a copywriter, and one provided proof of his own high converting products and launches and asked me for $5000 for a fee...a writer without this proof would have to bid a HUGE amount lower to give me a tough decision. Maybe $1000. If he bid $2,000, Id go with the $5,000 writer every time.

    The reason is ....do I really want to hire someone who knowingly puts themselves in this sort of competitive position? If they aren't rational in their own business...can I expect them to be rational in mine?
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850882].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
    First, take the sand out of your vagina and calm down.

    I'm not talking about working as a copywriter, I'm talking about hiring one.
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[850987].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    In your first post in this thread, you were talking about why a copywriter wouldn't have his own products. Lines like this:

    "You know how to write copy, you know a good product when you see it, you understand the marketing, traffic generation and everything to do with launches...

    So...

    Why are you selling your services rather than using them for your own products?"

    Make me think you were speaking to copywriters, not people thinking about hiring them. In fact, I can't see how any of your posts are really relevant to hiring a copywriter, except the "proof" bit, which people rebutted with the simple "ask for proof" argument... which seems pretty straight-forward to me.

    Though I guess the sand in my vagina could have traveled to my brain and be interfering with its function.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851006].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
      Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post


      Make me think you were speaking to copywriters, not people thinking about hiring them. In fact, I can't see how any of your posts are really relevant to hiring a copywriter, except the "proof" bit, which people rebutted with the simple "ask for proof" argument... which seems pretty straight-forward to me.
      -Dan
      here you go Dan...and sorry for the vagina comment....it was uncalled for.

      to illustrate this...

      If I was hiring a copywriter, and one provided proof of his own high converting products and launches and asked me for $5000 for a fee...a writer without this proof would have to bid a HUGE amount lower to give me a tough decision. Maybe $1000. If he bid $2,000, Id go with the $5,000 writer every time.

      The reason is ....do I really want to hire someone who knowingly puts themselves in this sort of competitive position? If they aren't rational in their own business...can I expect them to be rational in mine?
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851045].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Barry,

    Don't worry about "the vagina comment". I thought it was funny.

    I understand you want proof. We all do. My question to you is, if a copywriter has a proven track record, why does it matter if it is HIS product or someone else's?

    I don't expect anyone to hire a copywriter who can't deliver. But you're hiring a copywriter. If they have good references that you can write amazing copy that has made them lots of money - why should it matter whether or not it's their product?

    Look at Vin. My understanding is that most of the CB products for health/fitness are his letters... isn't that enough proof that he knows his stuff?

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851206].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
    Dan

    I thought it was funny too....when I heard it on Southpark.

    In a perfect world, I'd rather have is a screen shot of an analytics account so i could see an over time growth rate in performance.

    I think it does make a difference if they have their own products...but that's obviously just my own opinion.

    The reason why it makes a difference to me is because I prefer to work with more entrepreneurial types, people who walk the walk and not just talk the talk...and who can prove it with accounts they control.

    I think a lot of the flak that copywriters take is because of people who aren't promoting their own products effectively who produce sub standard results more often than those who do have their own high performing products.

    I'm sure both flunk sometimes, but those without their on successful products will flunk more on average in my opinion.

    The ones who do it all are a cut above the rest.

    In your example, if it came down to Vin and another copywriter who had his own provable, high performing products which I could examine in analytics, I'd still choose the other guy if all Vin could provide me with were testimonials.

    To answer your question, having a lot of letters in health/fitness without knowing the stats behind them isn't enough proof for me in an ideal world.

    All the best

    Barry
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851342].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Hugh Thyer
      Many copywriters write about products that can make you millions on the stock markets...yet don't even have a share portfolio.

      Many copywriters write for the weight loss market...but are overweight.

      I'd hazard a guess that some would have written for the quit smoking market, even though they still light up.

      And many write for the 'make money online' market, but (as you've pointed out) don't have their own online products.

      I'm not sure I see why you're connecting the two. People do what they want. If they're not interested in selling their own products then that's it. They're not.

      Selling products online is another business from copywriting. It requires different skills and a different mindset.

      In fact, a lot of the top internet marketers control everything in their businesses EXCEPT they outsource the copywriting. Totally different skill and totally different mindset.
      Signature

      Ever wondered how copywriters work with their clients? I've answered that very question in detail-> www.salescomefirst.com
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851386].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    If I was hiring a copywriter, and one provided proof of his own high converting products and launches and asked me for $5000 for a fee...a writer without this proof would have to bid a HUGE amount lower to give me a tough decision. Maybe $1000. If he bid $2,000, Id go with the $5,000 writer every time.

    The reason is ....do I really want to hire someone who knowingly puts themselves in this sort of competitive position? If they aren't rational in their own business...can I expect them to be rational in mine?
    Finbar,

    Let me chime in with a few points if I may, as I feel I fall into the category of good copywriter, but horrendous business owner...

    And so, your comments are starting to make my lady parts itch.

    1) Just because someone makes decent money running their own business, does not mean they can make decent money writing copy for YOUR business. That's just a fact.

    What if they're in a different niche?

    What if they won't bother to do due diligence on research for you, because they don't care for your product as much as their own?

    What if the reason they run a successful business has more to do with the fact that they are excellent marketers, managers or whatever?

    2) Although I think someone mentioned they're not really in it for making money, most folks are. And so if you're a good copywriter, your time is best spent writing copy - not messing with new product ideas, reading Mike Filsaime's blog or trying to get your graphic designer in India to pull his finger out.

    Take the 80/20 rule... Fact is, if you're spending 80% of your time as a copywriter, I don't think you can learn all there is to running a business with the remaining 20% (it will certainly take you a good few years, unless you're super sharp and work hard)

    3) Also - and I guess this isn't too relevant because we're talking about people you can hire - but there's an awful lot of really good in-house copywriters who will never write an e-book, and who you will never hear of. Yet they'll retire in the 30's or 40's, because they've been getting paid shit loads for their copy.

    But if one or two of them were to go freelance - you'd still have a preference for mid-life crisis Joe Blogs instead, who figured he didn't like his job anymore, got lucky in the IM game and now reckons he's a copywriter too?

    Bottom Line Barry*: You should hire a copywriter based on how much money you think they are going to make you... And in my mind, that means hiring a copywriter with a proven track record - as a COPYWRITER - not a business owner.

    * That would be a sweet IM nickname for you

    Now...

    The best copywriters do tend to be both entrepreneurial and have a wider set of marketing skills.

    (e.g. Makepeace, Bencivenga, Halbert, Carlton and Tully all have their own products )
    That's quite misleading because - as far as I'm aware - Makepeace, Bencivenga and Carlton were well known, hotshot copywriters long before any of them put out an info-product...

    And from what I gather, Halbert wasn't much a business owner.

    As for Tully, who the fudge is he?

    Colm
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851391].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Barry,

    You're welcome to your opinion, and I understand why you feel the way you do...

    HOWEVER... it is my experience that if you follow that philosophy you're leaving a lot of dough on the table.

    I don't think guys like Fortin are going to give you stats about their latest tests... because they have clients coming out their ears.

    When you're that good you can charge what you want and people will pay it... and if they don't, someone else will.

    And to the most recent poster... "Tully" was a joke Kyle made (his name is Kyle Tully)... get it?

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851398].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author colmodwyer
    And to the most recent poster... "Tully" was a joke Kyle made (his name is Kyle Tully)... get it?
    What?!? But this is not the JOKE forum?

    Is that allowed?

    How is one to tell when one is being serious or not?

    Colm
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851418].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Guess you were just messing around.

    Sorry, Colm.

    I know I'm a bit slow sometimes.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851501].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
      All sorts of ifs, and's and but's...but it really boils down in my mind to a choice between two different types of copywriter...who may be equally skilled in copywriting for the sake of argument...infact, let's say the only difference between then is this....

      1. Writer #1 has their own successful products (niche unimportant) which convert

      2. Writer #2 has no products of their own...and no analytics to examine...though lots of great testimonials

      To get hired by me, #2 would need to be >75% cheaper than #1.

      I think the odds of success tip in my favor hiring #1 on average.

      Of course you could throw out a load of specific situations where this isn't the case...but I think it's generally true...which justifies higher prices.

      All the best

      Barry
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851566].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

        To get hired by me, #2 would need to be >75% cheaper than #1
        How many copywriters have you hired, Barry?

        Best,

        Brian
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851705].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
          Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

          How many copywriters have you hired, Barry?

          Best,

          Brian
          I've never paid an online copywriter for anything in my life...and it would have to be an odd situation for me to do so...but I've worked closely with them in offline many times.
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851811].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
        Originally Posted by bigjock View Post

        1. Writer #1 has their own successful products (niche unimportant) which convert
        Writer #1 doesn't want to work for you. He's already got successful products of his own. If these products are truly "successful" why in the world would he endure your scrutiny to earn $10K or $20k... or however much you're willing to pay him?

        2. Writer #2 has no products of their own...and no analytics to examine...though lots of great testimonials

        To get hired by me, #2 would need to be >75% cheaper than #1.
        Any copywriter with "great testimonials" is going to cost you at least $6K. Most closer to $10K. Trying to figure out your math here. By 75% cheaper you mean that the guy without his own product would be 25% of the price you'd pay the guy with his own product? Basically paying the marketer/writer 4 times the amount of the guy who specializes in just writing copy? So... you'd pay a guy with "successful products of his own" $24K to write your copy?

        I'd venture a bet you've never paid even $10K for copy. Probably closer to $5K. Which is probably for the person you think is a successful marketer. So the "copy only" price you've paid is what? Like $1200?

        I think the odds of success tip in my favor hiring #1 on average.
        I'm not sure using your 1 and 2 strategy you have any chance of success! That's just my opinion but man... I've never seen anything like it.

        Of course you could throw out a load of specific situations where this isn't the case...but I think it's generally true...which justifies higher prices.
        Barry can you cite some examples of buying copy from someone who "successfully" markets their own products, and whom you've hired?

        I'd love to hear this! You may be giving me a whole new way to think about my business! If I can earn 4 times as much as I do now, just by "successfully" marketing my own product, I'll do $1 Million next year on copy for hire alone!

        I don't care if you're a copywriter or someone who pays copywriters... everyone really needs to understand this...

        Hire cheap and 9 times out of 10 you're hiring someone who doesn't have the ability to even sell themself well enough. How in the world are they going to be able to sell your product?

        Sure... there are exceptions... I know... It's my turn to speak in general terms now...

        If a copywriter can't convince you to pay the price he's asking... then he probably doesn't have the skills anyway.

        Everyone get that?

        If a marketer has the money and you come and quote him $5K and he says no... Then you don't deserve that $5K anyway. Because a worthy $5K writer would have the skills to convince that marketer to hire him at $5K.


        EDITED BECAUSE... I jus saw that Barry posted before me. I was wrong. Barry has never paid ANYTHING to an online copywriter. Therefore this post can be ignored.
        Signature
        The Montello Group
        Copywriting|Publishing|Training
        Your Premier Conversion Cooperative

        Join Us For Free Conversion Webinars
        CLICK HERE!
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851835].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
    Barry,

    You're entitled to have your own opinion, but I think you're missing
    the most important point here...

    Nothing is mandatory. It's all about CHOICE.

    It's not mandatory that a copywriter should have his own
    products.

    It's not even mandatory that a copywriter should know
    all about traffic generation.

    Of course, some copywriters do know about traffic gen
    and marketing... and they charge extra money on the side
    for that apart from for writing copy.

    But there's also nothing wrong if they're just copywriters.

    It's all a matter of CHOICE.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851651].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
      Originally Posted by Dean Dhuli View Post

      Barry,

      You're entitled to have your own opinion, but I think you're missing
      the most important point here...

      Nothing is mandatory. It's all about CHOICE.

      It's not mandatory that a copywriter should have his own
      products.

      It's not even mandatory that a copywriter should know
      all about traffic generation.

      Of course, some copywriters do know about traffic gen
      and marketing... and they charge extra money on the side
      for that apart from for writing copy.

      But there's also nothing wrong if they're just copywriters.

      It's all a matter of CHOICE.
      WRONG, WRONG. WRONG!

      Its mandatory....You MUST do what I SAY or I will come over to your house and sit on your front porch until you CONFORM to MY Wishes!
      Signature

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851660].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
    I honestly don't get why I'm getting so much hostility for a personal preference that if I ever was to hire a copywriter, I'd like to see him with his own successful products.

    LOL...whats the big deal?
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851881].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
      I can't speak for anyone else but I've certainly not given you any hostility.

      Your "personal preference" sounds more like a made up equation that's not based in anything other than you figured you'd write it. Maybe that's why your formula isn't being met with open arms.

      You're just saying things that make no sense in the real world.

      As I said... the "successful" marketing copywriter doesn't need your job... and the copywriter with all the testimonials won't work for 1/4 the price you'd be willing to pay the other guy.

      Where's the hostility?
      Signature
      The Montello Group
      Copywriting|Publishing|Training
      Your Premier Conversion Cooperative

      Join Us For Free Conversion Webinars
      CLICK HERE!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851910].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    No hostility from me, Barry.

    In the end, the rhetorical tap dance that you like do with copywriters in this forum every so often is entirely inconsequential. But it does reveal an irrational and unexplained phobia/disdain you have for copywriters.

    That's why I asked how many copywriters you've hired. To reveal that you have no dog in this fight except some weird fascination you've developed about something you don't do - namely hire copywriters.

    I mean, why go to such much trouble to express a personal preference about something that: "...it would have to be an odd situation for me to do..."

    Here's to a sand-free vajayjay...

    Brian
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[851927].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      But it does reveal an irrational and unexplained phobia/disdain you have for copywriters.
      It's perfectly rational and perfectly explainable.

      I give you money. You write some words. If I make more money, it was because of your great words, and I should give you more money. If I don't, or if I lose money, it was because of something else - but additional copywriting will help, and I should give you more money.

      Doesn't that seem like a scam? No matter what happens, you earned your money and I should give you more.

      It's a largely intractable problem. You have to understand what copywriters do before you can say "oh, yeah, copywriting IS fantastic" and feel like it's a good investment. But acquiring that understanding is hard, and it always feels like you're being charged a lot of money for nothing at all... until it works, and you can see it working, and you know it's the only reason things work.

      I think most people who understand the value of copywriting probably understand it because they've worked for someone who understood it, and had the opportunity to watch it work for that someone. Then, when they go out on their own, they bring this understanding with them. That's certainly what happened with me.
      Signature
      "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852052].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
        Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

        It's perfectly rational and perfectly explainable.

        I give you money. You write some words. If I make more money, it was because of your great words, and I should give you more money. If I don't, or if I lose money, it was because of something else - but additional copywriting will help, and I should give you more money.

        Doesn't that seem like a scam? No matter what happens, you earned your money and I should give you more.
        Is is a perpetual misunderstanding that copy means success or failure. Copy is one part of the equation.

        What you've elucidated above, no decent copywriter would ever agree with or do.

        If you make money, it was because you put a problem solving device in front of people with a problem, convinced them to trust you and offered your solution at a great price. How much did copywriting have to do with that?

        If you lose money, it was because you:

        1. Tried to solve a non-existent problem
        2. Solved it poorly
        3. Failed to convince people that you can solve it.
        4. Failed to make a good offer.
        5. Failed to get your problem in front of the people with a problem.

        How much does a copywriter have to do with that?
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852296].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
          Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

          Is is a perpetual misunderstanding that copy means success or failure. Copy is one part of the equation.
          Precisely.

          When the equation doesn't come out in your favor, you're just a cog in the machine.

          When it does, you're just as quick to point out the whole machine doesn't run without that cog.

          This isn't any sort of trickery or dishonesty; it's just the reality of copywriting. It's more properly an art, not a science, and you can't easily determine the quality of art. And like all art, it's expensive - there are few people who do it well, and those people only have so much time, and dammit they have worked their arses off for years to do it well in the first place.

          But it sure does feel like "heads I win, tails you lose" when you're the one who has to write the check.
          Signature
          "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852469].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
            Originally Posted by CDarklock View Post

            Precisely.

            When the equation doesn't come out in your favor, you're just a cog in the machine.

            When it does, you're just as quick to point out the whole machine doesn't run without that cog.
            It doesn't matter HOW the equation comes out. Both of your statements above are ALWAYS true.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852491].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
              Originally Posted by Bruce Wedding View Post

              It doesn't matter HOW the equation comes out.
              You're missing the point.

              How do I know when the copywriting is the problem?

              When I'm looking at my campaign saying "this isn't performing the way I'd like", how do I know the problem is definitely the copywriting - and better copy will fix it?

              Well, I don't. Indeed, no copywriter will ever tell me such a thing.

              Most people find that suspicious.
              Signature
              "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852567].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
                Originally Posted by Matt Jutras View Post

                Let's break it up into 3 parts.
                Yes, let's do that.

                Over here, we have the parts of the machine on the LEFT of the cog, and over here, we have the parts of the machine on the RIGHT of the cog.

                If you know the machine on both sides is working properly, then clearly any problem must be with the cog!

                Simple, right?

                Do you perhaps understand why a lot of people don't trust copywriters? Because that's really the point here: it is perfectly natural and normal for someone who needs ad copy to be distrustful of copywriters.

                The responses of "no it isn't; you can trust us!" really don't help. Your job is to convince people to do things they wouldn't ordinarily do. If you couldn't do that, you wouldn't be in this business. If you couldn't turn a "no" into a "yes", you wouldn't be worth hiring. Don't you suppose anyone who walks into your office realises that's what you do and wants something a little less polished in response to his concerns?

                I mean, come on. YOU'RE the marketing people. I'm a tech geek.
                Signature
                "The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852873].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Barry Walls
    Sand free here too...all good then.

    It isnt disdain...far from it. I love reading some of the work copywriters put out.

    I'm on several copywriters lists, listen to podcasts when I can from copywriters and Jo Sugarmans Adweek Copy Writing hand book is a fantastic book on the human condition and direct response copy. I also love Andy Maslens "Write to sell" and ofcourse Caldinis stuff.

    These guys are really smart business people and I learn a huge amount from them every time I tune in.

    You rarely hear complaints about their work.

    But I suppsoe where some of my reservations come from is that we used to run investment seminars and destroy the copywriters response rates with work we threw together in 10 minutes.

    That's always made me a little wary and careful...thats all.

    I dont really mean to bust your balls.

    All the best

    Barry
    Signature

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852007].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Actually, you are working with the wrong copywriters. Myself and the ones I know won't take a job that is a sure failure. I've warned several people who have approached me that I thought the price was off or the product wasn't needed or of the right quality.

    Of course, most people don't want to hear there product sucks or their price is too high and will insist that you go ahead anyway. Then when you do and it flops, they point a finger at you. I refuse to work with those people any more.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852889].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    I can understand that hiring a copywriter is scary. After all, the people who really need us don't have the skills to evaluate our work properly (hence why cheap, nasty copywriters sell so well... people can't appreciate the subtle differences that lead to massive jumps in response).

    However, as Bruce said, no decent copywriter will take a project that will flop. We're putting our reputation on the line here, and if we're in demand we're booked for a while anyway. There's no need for us to take a project we're unsure about... there simply is no motivation to do so.

    I can't speak for other copywriters, but I know one of the first things I do when working with a client is ensure there's a demand for the product, review their USP (if they have one), and make sure their offer is something I think will sell.

    If there are issues, I raise them with the client. Maybe I'm just lucky, but so far I've only worked with amazing clients who are all too happy to take my advice AND turn out the best possible product they can.

    I think if you go with a writer who has a strong track record and lots of satisfied clients... you can't go wrong. You just have to hire a writer who is going to do that initial research for you, because it's very, very important.

    -Dan
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[852928].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Bayo
    Really interesting discussions here...I never knew this type of stuff was discussed.

    I really think that your fees reflect your 'self worth'

    If you are starting from scratch then learn to sell. Period.

    I write my own sales copy for my infoproducts. The products sell well and I keep fine tuning the sales copy as I release more products.

    If I were to properly enter the world of copywriting I would not charge less than $497 minimum (and because I would want to collect testimonials) for a sales letter. Why? Because I know that I have proof that what I write sells products (as well as information product creation abilities)

    It really is about self-worth, ability to sell your services (and if you can't do that, how the heck are you goig to sell someone else's stuff?) ... and confidence at the end of the day.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[939812].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author blackhawkup
      Banned
      hey im offering my brand new copy writing services for a limited time only to the next 40..20 10 people who click below.
      and if you act now you can get my Unbelievable services for $45,000 WoW what a discount.

      I'll even throw in 4 bonuses and a vanilla cupcake. and if you order within the next 15 minutes i'll put some icing on the cupcake..BUT WAIT..theres more

      for a limited time only you get to choose between chocolate or vanilla icing..WOWzers!

      but the value doesnt stop there..Im also going to give you some
      Duncan Hines cake mix ($697 Value) Yours Free
      Betty Crocker cake mix ($497 Value) Yours Free

      To see my cake mix in action watch this short video below
      [add video that has no forward or rewind controls] (hell dont even add volume controls)

      [add over the top testimonials that are more fake than a california tity!]

      [add more testimonials of old men and woman...like they are just walking around with digital cameras snaping pics of themselves and then sending those little tiny pics to bull**** product ownser..]

      Can you see the amazing benefits of my cupcakes. you can try my "Simple" and easy to digest cupcakes and you'll be earning $6879.77 (notice the emphasis on simple and easy because apparantly these words are loved by would be buyers).....ps pay attention to the random numbers, yep this really makes me more believablE.

      HOW I EARN THOUSANDS EACH MONTH JUST BY PLAYING WITH MY CUPCAKES... [cant forget the how i headlines, oh and dont forget the cc0000 hex colors]

      add more scarcity here....then hit'em with the blue tree method, boy that never fails.

      {ok finally after reading this damn sales letter for 3 hours theres a cta..yeah some of you guys have some long ass sales letters hahaha its 2010 get to the point!}

      P.S> You thought this sales letter was over didnt you...well i forgot to tell you about my special 30 or 60 day guarantee BECAUSE THATS WHAT CLICKBANK ALLOWS.

      So you have 60 days to try my cupcakes if you dont like them you can return them for a full refund..this is risk free, cant you see how free the risk is, im talking absolutely no risk.

      P.S.S. Im almost done i just want to recap everything you're getting.
      (...blah blah blah you're getting $4597 worth of value for $47 bucks) hahaha you know good and damn well that ecourse aint even worth 27 bucks and you're talking about $47 bwahahaha

      P.S.S.S. Yes ive seen sales letters with like 6 ps's what a shame...i guess they dont have confidence in their copy. maybe thats why it was so lon..because they arent good enough to get their point across in as few words as possible...

      wow.. i cant believe i wrote this much copy just to sell my precious cupcakes.

      hey guys please buy my cupcakes, hahahahahahahahahahahaha

      i think my copy is worth ateast $10,000

      (on a serious note at the company i work here in texas profitfuel.com i get to scan and dissect a lot of sales pages..it's my job to reverse engineer the latest and greatest in online marketing copywriting. we have a large daabase of swipe fles, survey, interviews with copywriting greats and even soft interrogations to really pick the brain of some of the worlds best copywriters and what we've found was the only difference between great copywriters and the horrible ones were SYSTEMS...some of these guys had a pecific 4 or 5 ways to write a headline, and the same for the body content then they had a process they would use to choose the type of scarcity they would use in their copy.
      Again, i dont write copy i just study it and give the information to my job so they can pass it on to their in house copywriters... and yes these guys do make alot of money..granted they are writing copy for multi milllion dollar companies..but get this.
      each of our 6 writers that we currently have, had little to no training in writing copy. besides reading books and stuff llike that. according to my studies they were only charging between $500-$800 before they were hired on.
      oh well thats enough for me...im off to build my own im empire...and yes i do write my own copy!


      only 2 slots left. ACT NOW!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2841888].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Hank Rearden
    This entire thread is ridiculous. The only real piece of value was the man offering cupcakes. I love me some cup cakes
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2844529].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author EvolBaby
      I couldn't resist reading this thread.

      I come from a professional newspaper background.

      When you write for a newspaper you are thoroughly screened
      before you get the job. It's not always a matter of exact
      structure as we have editors for that, it's a primary matter of
      whether you can gather and present data accurately and
      write on two levels, standard and expressive.

      When one is writing about a town board meeting one is basically
      relaying the events of that meeting with the relevant data and
      in some cases any human element info such as persons who lost
      their temper or engaged in some humorous behavior.

      We also had to write advertisement copy and review thousands
      of stories per week regarding entertainment venues.

      I've seen it all.

      Copywriting for the IM arena is a specialized one on several
      levels. You professionals here know the difference between
      well written copy that achieves it's goals from hack copy put
      together by some computer program or person who has about
      as much creativity as a wet brick.

      I've written just about everything and have been doing so for
      30 years. I know some of the top screenwriters, authors of
      both fiction and fact and tons of news reporters. We often go
      over points of writing and literature and the sloppy writing found
      on the web is a constant source of both amusement and irritation.

      Now that I've been studying the IM industry I see how the
      specialists do it successfully. The levels of application from
      articles to sales copy can be informative and entertaining.

      The bottom line however is whether said copy does what it's
      directed to do.

      A newbie into the IM world has to study and pass muster.

      That is when one can set one's prices accordingly. The
      learning curve should match one's prices. If you're new and
      trying to establish yourself, one should do it on a gradient.

      Charging astronomical prices and you've yet to prove yourself
      is foolhardy to say the least. Charging too low is self defeating.

      How do you find that balance? Study, ask questions, barter,
      negotiate.

      Sure you'll find people who will intentionally attempt to undermine
      the copywriting market because of either greed or need.

      When you live in a third world country where the average annual
      salary is $1k then selling your services for $2k is a windfall. The
      counterparts in developed nations like the U.S. would get $20k for
      the same job. A client who is out for the bargain basement end
      of generating capital will go for the cheap and guess what? They'll
      end up in the cheap.

      We've all got to start somewhere and sure you'll run into people
      who take advantage of your ignorance but payback's a "B".

      I've been making great money the past 3 years copywriting for
      a select number of clients and each year the income skyrockets.

      Now I'm here in the IM world and making my way. Each week has
      been a boost in income and connections. As I progress I'll be
      able to command those higher salaries but I'm not stupid enough
      to start out demanding absurd prices without showing I can walk
      the line.
      Signature
      Copywriting/Article Writing at $2 per 100 words! Cartoons, Comics, T-Shirt Designs!
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[2854030].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jficarro
    I spent way too much time reading this thread before I realized it was so old. But, hopefully some of you are still subscribed to it and will respond.

    I understand that great sales copy can be a determining factor in the success of a product launch, but for me - I'm getting ready to launch a WSO that's going to range from $7-$9. I have no way of knowing how many I'll sell, but it could be as low as 50 (you never know).

    So, I'm looking around the copy writing forum to see if there's anyone that offers great copy for a price that fits my project. I understand the need for respect and proper compensation, but it doesn't make sense if the ad copy costs more than my product launch makes.

    I guess that's why there are no (or few) WF services offering complete ad copy for a decent price (decent - compared to the projected outcome). If I was a multi-million dollar business creating an ad campaign I could see paying $10,000 for copy, but what about the regular folks that want to share a great product they developed?

    No offense to any of you - I'm sure most of you are extremely talented at what you do, but there's a limit to what we (the average client) can pay.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6373109].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Raydal
      Originally Posted by jficarro View Post


      No offense to any of you - I'm sure most of you are extremely talented at what you do, but there's a limit to what we (the average client) can pay.

      There is a price spread for any service and you usually get what
      you pay for. Did I say usually?

      I have students that may be able to take you up on your offer
      AND I do agree with you that the price point of a product
      should be factored into the copywriting fee.

      BUT at the same time your low priced products should be
      just that-- a gateway to more expensive products/service if
      you have your marketing funnel set up right. So the
      money you make on the front end may not be much but the
      list you build should have a higher lifetime value.

      Some marketers even use a "loos leader" just to build
      their list.

      I have coaching students who may be able to fit your
      budget--just PM me.

      -Ray Edwards
      Signature
      The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6373220].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
        Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

        There is a price spread for any service and you usually get what you pay for.

        -Ray Edwards
        Ray is completely right here. You get what you pay for.

        Why people insist on believing they will get copy that will send sales through the roof for pennies on the dollar is beyond me.

        The answer for someone who needs good copy but can't afford it is the following:

        1) Learn to write copy yourself.

        2) Wait until you have enough money to pay for good copy.

        3) Pay birdfeed for copy and pray it sells...though I doubt it will (ie you get what you pay for).
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6394838].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
      Originally Posted by jficarro View Post

      ... I'm getting ready to launch a WSO that's going to range from $7-$9. I have no way of knowing how many I'll sell, but it could be as low as 50 (you never know).

      So, I'm looking around the copy writing forum to see if there's anyone that offers great copy for a price that fits my project. I understand the need for respect and proper compensation, but it doesn't make sense if the ad copy costs more than my product launch makes.

      ...but what about the regular folks that want to share a great product they developed?
      My advice, take it for what it cost you:

      1. Quit designing $9 products (without a funnel)
      2. Think bigger than the Warrior Forum
      3. Develop a true marketing funnel
      4. Learn to write your own copy. It doesn't take much to sell a decent $9 product. Solve a problem. Prove you can solve it. Ask them to buy it.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6373530].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author jficarro
        Thanks Bruce,

        I do have a sales funnel: upgrade and OTO
        I am thinking beyond WF (it will be published and available on Kindle)
        I am considering writing my own copy - (I'm a great writer - but NOT sales copy)

        I've been in this for a long time and each project is it's own thing. Aside from using the copy after the WSO on a regular salespage, the only purpose of the copy is for the Warrior Forum.

        As most of us know, the WF is awesome, but $9 is the appropriate price point for this type of product (even though in the right hands it will make the user an upper middle class living). Even with the upgrade - around $24 is all I think the WF crowd will be willing to pay.

        But, thanks for responding. I know I really should do it myself. I know all the mechanics and I'm an excellent writer. But as you know, sales copy is a different animal. Plus, I always wonder if a professional copy writer could increase sales - or are you all just selling me on your ability to increase sales - LOL
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6374394].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Zeus66
    2 cents from a WSO seller for several years now...

    Copy used to matter a lot more than it does now in the WSO section. Why? warriorplus.com and jvzoo.com, etc. Affiliates. They are what really drive the sales now. You don't need excellent copy (hell, even mediocre will do the trick in many cases) - not when you have a few affiliates warming up the traffic. People will often buy on the recommendation alone.

    This is not to say that great copy wouldn't add to the conversion rate. Obviously, it would. But it's not the main driver it used to be.

    John
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6405117].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
    Testimonials are also huge in WSO copy. Obviously a copywriter won't help you there.

    -Daniel
    Signature

    Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6405138].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by ThomasOMalley View Post

      You get what you pay for.

      Why people insist on believing they will get copy that will send sales through the roof for pennies on the dollar is beyond me.

      The answer for someone who needs good copy but can't afford it is the following:

      1) Learn to write copy yourself.

      2) Wait until you have enough money to pay for good copy.

      3) Pay birdfeed for copy and pray it sells...though I doubt it will (ie you get what you pay for).
      Yet just 6 months before we have this by the same person...

      http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...een-197-a.html

      This little fact must have escaped your notice Thomas.

      Bit of a contradiction don't you think?

      You can't have your cake and eat it.


      Mark Andrews
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6407168].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        Yet just 6 months before we have this by the same person...

        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...een-197-a.html

        This little fact must have escaped your notice Thomas.

        Bit of a contradiction don't you think?

        You can't have your cake and eat it.


        Mark Andrews
        Pretty sure Cherilyn hasn't suddenly become a guy named Thomas.

        Though I haven't seen Cherilyn lately...

        Hmm.

        -Daniel
        Signature

        Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6407383].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author NickN
          Originally Posted by Daniel Scott View Post

          Pretty sure Cherilyn hasn't suddenly become a guy named Thomas.

          -Daniel
          Never say never.
          Signature

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6407582].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
        Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

        Yet just 6 months before we have this by the same person...

        http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...een-197-a.html

        This little fact must have escaped your notice Thomas.

        Bit of a contradiction don't you think?

        You can't have your cake and eat it.


        Mark Andrews
        Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

        I didn't create or endorse the noted WSO.

        So I didn't see that particular post...oh my God!!! A tragedy.

        My point stands...no contradiction at all.

        P.S. Mark, I give you permission to offer your copywriting services for less than $200 if you want.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6410353].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
          Banned
          All I'm pointing out Thomas is the complete contradiction between the threads created by the same Warrior.

          On the one hand sharing information why you should never hire a $197 copywriter yet only a few months previously, she was offering copywriting for $197.

          And you're right (finally)... what someone else charges for their business services has nothing to do with you.


          Mark Andrews
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6412048].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
            Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

            All I'm pointing out Thomas is the complete contradiction between the threads created by the same Warrior.

            On the one hand sharing information why you should never hire a $197 copywriter yet only a few months previously, she was offering copywriting for $197.

            And you're right (finally)... what someone else charges for their business services has nothing to do with you.


            Mark Andrews
            The point is the pricing of copywriting services is part of the business of copywriting... and hmm...hmm...and this is the copywriting subforum..and may be you'll finally get it right...though I doubt it.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6412943].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author abugah
            Originally Posted by Mark Andrews View Post

            All I'm pointing out Thomas is the complete contradiction between the threads created by the same Warrior.

            On the one hand sharing information why you should never hire a $197 copywriter yet only a few months previously, she was offering copywriting for $197.

            And you're right (finally)... what someone else charges for their business services has nothing to do with you.


            Mark Andrews
            I see these contradictions all the time. People tell you this while they do the opposite.

            It wasn't long ago when a post appeared in this forum by someone who was teaching about how to get to page 1 on Google, yet his own website was not even in the top 20 for any keyword.

            I have had an opportunity to write copy for someone who wanted to teach people how to make $250 an hour. I challenged him to provide prove for his own income and it wasn't even half this figure.

            Perhaps Cherilyn Woodhouse can shed light on the contradiction of asking people to charge more than $197 for copy, yet just 6 months earlier she offered a WSO for the same amount.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6417457].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
              Banned
              Well, I'm not going to knock her too much, she hasn't posted here in ages now and undoubtedly she's a darn fine copywriter these days in her own right. One of Canada's best in fact.

              I was simply pointing out the contradiction for Thomas' benefit really. Not a direct slight on Cherilyn.

              Warmest regards,


              Mark Andrews
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6417492].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
              Originally Posted by abugah View Post

              It wasn't long ago when a post appeared in this forum by someone who was teaching about how to get to page 1 on Google, yet his own website was not even in the top 20 for any keyword.
              That may or may not be a contradiction. I've got ranking websites and I've got websites that get traffic from other ways, for example CB affiliates. If I'm choosing to rank a website, it all starts with the domain name containing keywords.

              If I'm creating a website for Clickbank, I pick a cool name that's easy to remember. And it's pretty tough to rank a sales letter in the first place.

              Originally Posted by abugah View Post

              I have had an opportunity to write copy for someone who wanted to teach people how to make $250 an hour. I challenged him to provide prove for his own income and it wasn't even half this figure.
              Yep, that's the way this business is. More than half my IM "get rich" clients were broke. They'd pay my fee with a credit card or ask for payment terms. I've seen so many Warrior "gurus" in person that didn't have a pot to piss in. These guys were sharing hotel rooms, borrowing gas money, driving junk cars, you name it. Most of them are frauds.

              Originally Posted by abugah View Post

              Perhaps Cherilyn Woodhouse can shed light on the contradiction of asking people to charge more than $197 for copy, yet just 6 months earlier she offered a WSO for the same amount.
              The only thought I had is that she may have learned her lesson and decided to share her new found wisdom?
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6417537].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author schttrj
    Originally Posted by Cherilyn Woodhouse View Post

    Okay, so this might tickle a few feathers, but I'm just going to come out and say it.

    I could tell you not to charge $197 for your sales copy out of professional courtesy, but it doesn't devalue the work of other copywriters... In fact, it makes our work MORE valuable.

    I could tell you not to charge $197 for a salesletter because you'll earn more if you charge more, but that isn't necessarily true. If you suck, you'll earn about the same. But you will have to work a little bit less (not much, mind you.)

    No, the real reason I suggest people stop charging $197 for sales copy is one word.

    RESPECT

    I'm not talking about the respect you give, either. I'm talking about the respect you GET.

    Think about this for a minute... When you buy, say, a kitchen gadget at a department store for $200 - you have a certain respect for that item. You invested in it, and want it to last a long time. If you buy the same kitchen gadget at a dollar store, how much are you going to respect it?

    Not at all.

    Because if you really cared about the item, you would have bought a better quality one. Dollar stores are notorious for bad quality products, of course, and (the number one reason) if it breaks, you can replace it easily. After all, it was only a dollar!

    Now apply this to your copywriting.

    If you're priced at 1/10th of what even the most newbie copywriters are charging (at least, the ones with confidence), you're going to get DOLLAR STORE shoppers. They're not going to expect you to be any good, so they're going to get their mucky mitts in there and try and "fix" you so your copy is better. Then when it sucks, they blame it on you, but aren't too angry because "After all, it was only a dollar!"

    You can be replaced, and in all likelihood (since the client has no real expectation of you doing well) you WILL be.

    Plus you'll have no respect from your peers... Your copy could be fantastic, but we'll have a hard time believing it. Why? Because it takes CONFIDENCE to charge real fees for your work, and it takes CONFIDENCE to write better than half-assed sales copy.

    Worst of all, you'll have no respect for yourself. Because you don't think you deserve more - you don't respect yourself.

    Please, for yourself, for your clients, and for the reputation of the warrior forum - charge what you're worth.

    And if your copy really is only worth $197, then for your own sake it might be time to move on.

    - Cherilyn
    The Canadian Copywriter

    P.S. Apparently my original intentions weren't clear. Hope I didn't offend anyone in my attempts to help newer copywriters see the light at the end of the value tunnel - none was intended, nor was this a post scolding anyone for not paying higher fees. Just another perspective.
    Well, just to add to your writeup, your value is not what you fix. Your value is fixed by the market!

    You don't have to start by charging $497 for a sales letter. All you can do is, start with $147. But...

    If you work well, you will see plenty of offers and projects being thrown at your feet. And when demand ups supply, your price automatically rises. There's no secret to that.

    Yes, there's a minimum rate below which you cannot go, judging the cost that goes into writing the copy.

    Got the point?
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6418761].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
      Originally Posted by schttrj View Post

      Well, just to add to your writeup, your value is not what you fix. Your value is fixed by the market!

      You don't have to start by charging $497 for a sales letter. All you can do is, start with $147. But...

      If you work well, you will see plenty of offers and projects being thrown at your feet. And when demand ups supply, your price automatically rises. There's no secret to that.

      Yes, there's a minimum rate below which you cannot go, judging the cost that goes into writing the copy.

      Got the point?
      Two things here...

      1) $497 isn't exactly a lot for a sales letter. I consider that the absolute minimum any decent writer should start at. Learn from my mistakes, people!

      2) Good copywriters can sell. And that means they're able to mess with demand. Copywriting is not a commodity like gold or oil... it's an intangible thing, so the "supply and demand" rule holds less sway than in something more tangible.

      Having said that, I think I agree with where you're coming from. Good work certainly does help you charge more... I certainly couldn't easily charge what I do without the strong track record I have. But it's certainly not the only factor, which your post seems to indicate (at least to me).

      -Daniel
      Signature

      Always looking for badass direct-response copywriters. PM me if we don't know each other and you're looking for work.

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6419334].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Mark Andrews
      Banned
      Originally Posted by schttrj View Post

      Got the point?
      Can't speak for her but probably not. This thread is as old as the hills. The OP hasn't been around for yonks. Some guy in the last several days rebumped it to the top 'tis all. So you're likely talking to thin air.


      Mark Andrews
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[6420409].message }}

Trending Topics