Is it possible to find "affordable" Sales Letter Writers?

capone2009

16 years ago

yes i am looking for the same issue.
but $97 for a sales letter is quite much isn't it?

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Cherilyn Woodhouse

16 years ago

It is possible to get a sales letter writer for $97, and although you might find a hidden gem - most won't be spectacular at that price. In fact, many people I've seen haven't been able to find someone who can write in clear English, let alone persuasively, for that amount.

After seeing plenty of warriors come in here, ask the same question, and post their disappointment - my best advice to you, if you only have $97 to spend, is to either A) buy a couple of books on copywriting and learn it yourself or B) write a salesletter modeled after a successful letter in your niche, and then have a reputable copywriter from the WSO forum critique it (I know Judy (zapseo) does this from time to time, her last offer was I think $97 - right within your budget - and she is amazing at what she does...)

So to answer your question, yes and no... Yes, you can get a copywriter for $97 - they will either critique what you've written, or write you something you probably can't use. I know what I'd spend my money on!

- Cherilyn

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devynspirit

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Cherilyn Lester

It is possible to get a sales letter writer for $97, and although you might find a hidden gem - most won't be spectacular at that price. In fact, many people I've seen haven't been able to find someone who can write in clear English, let alone persuasively, for that amount.

After seeing plenty of warriors come in here, ask the same question, and post their disappointment - my best advice to you, if you only have $97 to spend, is to either A) buy a couple of books on copywriting and learn it yourself or B) write a salesletter modeled after a successful letter in your niche, and then have a reputable copywriter from the WSO forum critique it (I know Judy (zapseo) does this from time to time, her last offer was I think $97 - right within your budget - and she is amazing at what she does...)

So to answer your question, yes and no... Yes, you can get a copywriter for $97 - they will either critique what you've written, or write you something you probably can't use. I know what I'd spend my money on!

- Cherilyn

You always offer some great advice, thank you!

Thanks

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Cherilyn Woodhouse

16 years ago

For between $400-$600 you might be able to find someone to rewrite your copy, or maybe even an up and comer to write it for you. As with anything else, do your due diligence. Even the best of us start somewhere, and a lot of copywriters who could turn into superstars might be charging in that range for a rewrite right now.

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jhall85work 16 years ago

I am an up and comer and i rewrote a squeeze page for a lady who tried to do it herself. I charged her $200 (thinking maybe that was too high at first) and I did my research and cranked it out in about two days. I literally increased her sign up rate by %600 if you can believe it. I'm trying to get my name out there and do cheap jobs for people but I'm not sure how to go about it at this point. this thread is very helpful
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David Raybould

16 years ago

TGK-

I won't lie to you-

The odds of you finding someone
to do a passable job at that price
are astronomical.

But if that's your budget, that's your
budget.

Just create a post telling everyone what
you want and how much you want to
spend.

A surprising amount of cheap writers
are lurkers here, so you'll most likely
get some takers.

Good luck

-David Raybould

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Dean Dhuli 16 years ago

It's amazing how some copywriters seem to believe
they're doing clients a favor by charging less.

While the truth actually is that when you're writing copy
for dirt cheap... and you're trying to make a living doing that...
8 out of 10 times you will never do justice to the copy.

At those prices, you have to write just too many letters
to meet your living expenses.

And then... unlike what most newbies think... writing copy
is also not easy.

It takes a lot of time to write a decent sales letter that
converts and is mentally exhausting.

So if you're considering hiring a dirt-cheap copywriter,
that's one reason to rethink your decision.

Just my 2 cents,

Dean
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sarahberra 16 years ago

This is very true. Sales letters are not cheap. The lowest price you can probably find is about $300. If you go any less than that you may not get the results you need. You can also learn to write sales copy on your own. You can do it! Have you ever check out Wealthy Affiliate? I just signed up and I am learning how to write sales copy. I have worked as a freelance writer for the past 2 years, writing for magazines, and my own web sites, but now its time for me to get serious about marketing. Send me a message for more info.
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senve

Banned 16 years ago

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Roshan C

16 years ago

A appreciate everyone's response, THANKS!

I agree with you senve :confused:

A newbie to information product marketing, cannot really afford to pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for a sales letter, correct?

Thanks,
All the best.

Originally Posted by senve

i continue to see that all copywriters from this forum are advising rising and rising the prices that other copywriters ask for sales letters...

for me, i am a newbie, and i have a product, an ebook, that i want to promote

i want it to be a success, but i understand that it can also be unsuccesfull and
for a start, i need to keep my costs low, until I see some results

so I am looking for good value copywriters, somewhere in the area of 100 - 400 usd
for writing a good catchy sales letter.

and I believe that is possible

Thank you

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Note Taking Nerd #2

14 years ago

You not being able to pay a copywriter is a blessing in disguise.

The people who get their ass handed to them in the market place are the "Experts" who believe all this marketing/selling stuff is beneath them or... that focusing entirely on their product or service is the most important thing they can do.

Both of these beliefs are bull****. They'll kill your business because nothing happens in your business until something is sold. You can have the best product or service on earth but if no one buys it, you'll be out of business sooner than later.

This is why marketing/copywriting gets top priority once you know you have a product or service that solves a problem that people are actually out looking for solutions for and opening their wallets to solve.

If you don't get that right, the greatest copywriter on the planet isn't gonna be able to fix that problem. If you nail this, you, yourself can write the copy using this formula I'm about to give you from the notes I took on Eben Pagan's 12 Week Guru Blueprint course and do a damn good job!

I'm not a big fan of swiping. This is a whole different thread though. What I am a fan of though is telling your whole damn story.

When you swipe you've got to know all the key components to take from other salesletters and then once you find all the pieces (hopefully they all have a similar tone/style) you've gotta re-write them. When you use a Tell-the-whole-damn story formula, you only write once and you do it to a proven formula that's worked over and over and over again.

You want to give your prospect everything they'll need to make an intelligent decision. And yes, it's going to be longer than you think it should be. Most of Eben's sales videos are 30-60 minutes long, he's written sales letters that are dozens of pages long.

Once again, you want a complete communication.

You want to get back in touch with what your prospect is experiencing, the emotions they're feeling, the things that are triggering those emotions, the things they want to move away from, the specific outcomes they want to move towards.

The way you do this is to make a list of all their fears and frustrations, then make a list of their wants and aspirations. And hopefully you've talked to more than 20 people in your audience or communicated with them in a meaningful way and you're in sync with them. You, as the business owner should have the pulse of the market like no other copywriter could, except for someone who's written for your exact market for years.

Now Here's What's Inside Of A Complete Sales Communication

1. Headline

You want this to be benefit-driven, specific, clear and crisp.

An easy way to not **** this up this critical step is by using the words, "How-To" at the beginning. These two words make you focus on what the customer is going to get. So it's "How to do something and get a benefit" or "How to 'get a benefit'".

2. Set Up Challenge or Expectation of Learning How To Get the Desired Result

You say something that sets up the challenge the prospect is facing and the outcome that they want to move towards or away from. And in setting this up, you're implying that you know how to solve it. You have the answer.

Talk directly to the challenge. Talk directly to the fact that you're going to be showing them how to get what they want.

3. Story

You want to share your story of, ideally, you being in their situation, having the frustrations, the symptoms that they have, trying and failing to get the result, finally finding a solution and then creating a system that led to you creating your product.

4. Product & Bullets

You want to introduce your product or your service, and then at least a minimum of 20 solid bullets that are all focused on solutions to problems, deliverance from pain, specific benefits and results.

These are little miniature headlines essentially.

5. Build Value & Tell Them The Price

You want to frame the price in a way that translates the value into a minimum of 10x what they will be investing.

And give a great reason for why you're only charging a 1/10 of what it's really worth.

6. Remove Risk With Your Guarantee

The best way to do this is to offer a 100% guarantee.

Tell them that this comes with a 100% money-back guarantee so if they don't like it for any reason, they get their money back.

7. Tell Them to Act Now

You have to instruct them. Ask them to respond. Give them a specific direction to action with the exact action steps detailed out so that they know what to do in order to purchase your product.

Example:

HEADLINE:

How to lose 20 pounds... in 90 days... all naturally

SET-UP OF THE PROBLEM:

"If you're interested in learning how to lose 20 pounds or more of fat in 90 days or less, and you don't want to take pills or torture yourself with a starvation diet, then this is probably the most important message you're ever going to hear."

STORY:

"Five years ago, I had woken up and realized that I had gotten fat. I stepped on the scale and realized that I was 23 pounds overweight. Not only did I not fit into my old skinny jeans. It'd been so long since I'd worn them that I'd forgotten where I'd packed them away to. I was a mess.

So I tried the latest fad diet, got myself a gym membership, started working out and guess what happened. You guessed it. I GAINED weight! And worse, I was hungry while it was all happening.

But then something interesting happened. I was talking to a friend one day and they shared with me the secret a vegan used to lose 20 pounds in 90 days. And when they explained what it was, it just sounded crazy to me but I tried it out and I lost 21 pounds in 90 days.

21 pounds in 90 days! And I was shocked! A couple of friends asked me, "How did you do that?" so I shared with them what my system was and they started losing weight very quickly as well. And finally I created a system and now I want to show it to you.

The best part: I did it all naturally, no chemicals, and no pills."

PRODUCT/BULLETS:

"The best part is that I now have taken everything I've learned about losing weight and showing others and I've put it into a simple system that you can use right now to lose up to 20 pounds in as little as 90 days... all naturally and the best part is that I personally guarantee it will work for you.

And you can learn my entire system from the comfort of your home, in my new 12 week tele-class series, "How to lose 20 pounds in 90 days... all naturally". In this series I'm going to show you...

• How to lose 20 pounds of fat in 90 days without having to take any kind of harmful pills or chemicals

• Exactly what to eat so that you feel full when you have a meal... and you lose weight at the same time

• A simple 20 minute exercise program you can do each morning that literally burns fat all day and it's not hard to do"

THE VALUE BUILD AND THE PRICE

"If you were to work with me one on one as a private client for 12 weeks, you'd would have to invest about $2,500 dollars for your sessions with me. Now in order to make this product available to everyone, I've decided to price my 12 week teleclass series, "How to lose 20 pounds in 90 days... all naturally" at the low price of only $240.00

You're going to be learning all of my best techniques for losing weight. You're going to be learning from me live. And you'll only be paying a fraction of what it would cost to hire me to work one on one with you."

RISK REVERSAL

"This program comes with my 100% money back guarantee. If you don't like it for any reason, all you have to do is send me an email that says, "Refund please" and I'll give you back all of your money... no questions asked."

ACT NOW

"There are 25 spots available in this tele-class. And it's starting soon. It's on the first of next month. If you'd like to attend this class with me, just click the button below that says register, enter your name and payment information, and register right now. I look forward to working with you to help you lose your weight fast. Register now, and I'll talk to you in the program."

*******************

You take all of these pieces and you put them together into a logical story that makes sense.

The above is a very abbreviated version of what you should probably do for your market. All of the salesletters that Eben puts out follow this format.

Remember to talk to your prospect as if they were a close friend. And use this brain dead simple, yet incredibly effective forumula to explain it all. Then, have fun keeping all the money for yourself instead of handing over a big fee and royalties to a top notch writer!!! :-)

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Ken Strong

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Note Taking Nerd #2

The above is a very abbreviated version of what you should probably do for your market. All of the salesletters that Eben puts out follow this format.

Remember to talk to your prospect as if they were a close friend. And use this brain dead simple, yet incredibly effective forumula to explain it all. Then, have fun keeping all the money for yourself instead of handing over a big fee and royalties to a top notch writer!!! :-)

Stop bumping two-year old threads, please.

Thanks

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John_S 16 years ago

When you're looking for $97 copy, you'll find it.

The probabilities are after two years and five writers, you'll think differently about what's a cost, what's a price and what value is. For now, they're all just words.

Do you think it is possible to get a GOOD sales letter writer at an affordable price?

Yes. I also believe the probability is roughly that of finding a "good" lottery ticket. What's possible isn't always probable. What's affordable now isn't what you'll view as affordable at the end of this road you've chosen.

However, nothing anyone says will change where you are on that road.

You believe you should have copy for $97, and you'll have it. And I, for one, believe you should get it. Again and again.
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David Raybould

16 years ago

Hi Senve,

I think you're missing the point
a little here.

Nobody is advising anyone to
raise the prices on anything.

A good copywriter costs money.
Thousands of dollars. The client
who hires the writer usually makes
many times his investment back.

That's just how it is.

And sure, you may want to find
a good writer for between $100
and $400... you may even honestly
believe it's possible.

But that doesn't mean it will happen.

Sure, it's possible, but statistically,
it's pretty unlikely.

When budgeting for a writer, it
just depends how much money
you want to make, or how high
you want your conversion figures.

If you're happy with zero or next
to zero conversion, then I'm sure
you can find just the right writer
for you at that price.

Senve, you say you want to keep
your costs down until you see results...

If you're honestly expecting good
results from hiring a copywriter
that cheap, this project is
probably going to be quite a
wake up call for you.

Sorry.

Good luck with it though, and
I honestly do hope you find a
killer writer to give you a real
bargain.

-David Raybould

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John_S 16 years ago

What's affordable?

$500 and up for cable TV over the course of a year. Nobody blinks an eye.

Cigarettes. Beer budget. Hundreds more. Nobody even thinks about it not being affordable.

Yet the thing that pays for all that is copy. And suddenly, mysteriously, everybody is now price conscious.
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- MikeHumphreys 16 years ago
  
  When I accept a new project to write an online sales letter from scratch, my quoted fee is usually between $4-6K, depending on the niche and what other things like affiliate emails, etc. are needed.
  
  The reasons why I charge so much money:
  
  1) To write a sales letter from scratch is easily 40 hours of work for me, not counting time to read/watch the client's product. That's to do the research, competitor analysis, writing, editing, proofreading, re-editing, and polishing the sales letter to get it to my high level of standards. I have a strong professional reputation to maintain so nothing leaves my desk if it's sub-par.
  
  At $97, I'd make about $2/hour or about 1/3 of the U.S. minimum wage.
  
  2) I've spent a lot of years developing my copywriting and marketing skills, over 15 years and counting to be more exact. I don't just write the letter... I continue for another 30 days (sometimes more) to advise them on how to keep getting a higher conversion rate by doing things like testing different headlines, offers, and so on. So when I hire on, my clients are basically getting a copywriting and a marketing consultant. Almost every copywriter I know who charges $3K+ does this as well.
  
  3) By charging more, I can do less projects each month and spend more time on each one. Hence, I can deliver more value to my clients.
  
  4) While $97 may be what you can afford now, it's much less than a professional copywriter with a strong track record can earn by accepting higher paying projects elsewhere or even creating their own info-products.
  
  Here's some friendly advice...
  
  When you're starting any business, you have a lot of time but not much money. So you learn how to do a lot of tasks yourself. As your business grows, you start outsourcing more and more because you don't have much available time but you do have the budget to pay someone else to do it for you.
  
  As a new(er) marketer online, you *should* learn how to write a decent sales letter. There will be times where either your budget or time frame does not allow you to hire a copywriter. Copywriting is the most expensive task to outsource but it's probably the most important one as well.
  
  For less than $40, you can grab the following books to help you gain a basic foundation to write a decent sales letter. You won't be a great copywriter but you'll be able to write something better than at least 50% of your competitors in your niche. That *should* help your business start getting some additional income flowing in.
  
  1. Make Your Words Sell - Ken Evoy and Joe Robson. It's free at sitesell.com. Find it via the site map on that website.
  
  2. The Ultimate Sales Letter - Dan Kennedy. About $14 via Amazon. It will teach you how to write the correct structure to a sales letter.
  
  3. Tested Advertising Methods - John Caples. About $14 via Amazon. Caples was a legendary copywriter and this book does a great job of teaching you how to write effective headlines. It covers other things too but there's a lot of great info on headlines.
  
  Good luck,
  
  Mike
  
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  John_S 16 years ago
  
  for under $1,000?
  
  Buy $500 worth of books and courses, trial and error by writing it yourself.
  
  This educates you for hiring anybody, at any price point.
  
  Thanks
  
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  mailco 16 years ago
  
  I guess it would be the same story to find a good artist or actor or any good talent for $97, chances are, never in a million years.
  
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David Raybould

16 years ago

Hey Senve-

Typically, successful marketers
who are charging lower prices for
their products ($40 eg) will have
backend products ready to pitch
to everyone who buys.

Say you have a $97 backend offer
that converts at 30 to 50%...

Suddenly your 100 visitors are making
you between $110 and $220...

That's a lot easier to live with right?

Now think about this...

Say you hire yourself a $97 copywriter,
who writes you a terrible letter. Which
is likely.

It converts at 0.5%, which is probably
generous.

Suddenly, your 100 visitors are only
worth $5. And it's going to be pretty
tough to get rich off the back of $5,
per hundred visitors.

Even if you're a traffic genius and
you can point 1000 high quality
uniques at your letter a day, you'd
still only be grabbing $50 a day.

...and remember, I said 0.5% was
generous. It's likely to be a lot
less...

Hope that illustration makes you
see why expensive writers are
expensive.

Here's what I'd do if I were you:

Go to Amazon.com and spend
the $100 on copywriting books.

Study them. Hard.

Then write 10 versions of your
salesletter.

The final one you write will
likely be MANY times better
than anything your $97 writer
delivers.

Good luck

-David Raybould

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1 Marketing 16 years ago

I guess the discussion was on the issue that, tgk is looking for affordable Sales Letter Writer. And most of us have started advising him according to our own understanding.

The actual issue is, the term affordable is relative. Meaning there by it varies from person to person. For some one $5000 will be affordable and for some may be $50 not affordable...
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John_S

16 years ago

$97 is affordable to everyone -- including the people who pay $5000.

You can bet the farm if they got similar response from a $97 deal they'd take it. Every time.

They don't. That makes the $97 dollar deal unaffordable for people who would love to save $4900.

Paying $5000 for copy when you don't have to is absolutely, categorically, insane. There are few saner and more hard nosed about money than those who pay $5000 and up for copy.

And that's why those who think all that matters is being ballsy enough to just ask five grand for their **** copy will have their head handed to them. Every time.

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senve

Banned 16 years ago

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John_S 16 years ago

More than 7 GOOD copywriters PMed me since I started to look for one here on this forum, and ALL-INCLUDED good writing deal is $197.

Of course they did. Good for you that you're not "naive" people like those *others* who only go by price and not cash in the bank.

Cause they end up not having the money to hire those $5000 copywriters.
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BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Originally Posted by senve

So those who say $5000 is the minimum for a good copywriter, they just want to hit the bank by fooling some really naive dreamers...

Yeah, man... Tell 'em!

I mean... at $10 a pop with no back end, eventually that $200 copy could DOUBLE your money!

Screw those greedy *******s.

Naive dreamers, as we all know, are the most plump and juicy of clients.

They always have such great products, and awesome social proof. Best of all, they are able to drive laser targeted traffic to an offer so consistently.

I don't know what those fat-cat copy mugs would do without them!

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David Raybould

16 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Yeah, man... Tell 'em!

I mean... at $10 a pop with no back end, eventually that $200 copy could DOUBLE your money!

Screw those greedy *******s.

Naive dreamers, as we all know, are the most plump and juicy of clients.

They always have such great products, and awesome social proof. Best of all, they are able to drive laser targeted traffic to an offer so consistently.

I don't know what those fat-cat copy mugs would do without them!

Brian I may frame this post.

Literally had me crying with
laughter here in my office.

Great stuff dude.

-David Raybould

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Roshan C

16 years ago

Originally Posted by senve

Great post mate.

More than 7 GOOD copywriters PMed me since I started to look for one here on this forum, and ALL-INCLUDED good writing deal is $197.

So those who say $5000 is the minimum for a good copywriter,
they just want to hit the bank by fooling some really naive dreamers...

Wow, more than 7?

Thats amazing....I got only 2 to PM me :p But I've already hired one, but for $197

I'll probably have an good copy soon.

All the best guys,
Cheers,
TGK

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by senve

More than 7 GOOD copywriters PMed me since I started to look for one here on this forum, and ALL-INCLUDED good writing deal is $197.

LOL... I'd love to know who bestowed the "good" title on these bottom feeders.

I have a great idea... You $200 "good" copywriters obviously are reading this thread. So... why not come public and show your work? Give us some results... some references. Because I'll be damn honest with you...

If I could find a "good" copywriter for TWICE that price, I will book ALL your time.

Not to write for my clients. But just to write for me. Hell... get 5 of your friends who are also good and I'll book a year in advance right this minute!

$400 a sales letter written by a "good" copywriter. That's the bargain of the century...

Now... a $200 sales letter from someone who just decides "hey, I'm good"... well, those are a dime a dozen. Every broke wannabe THINKS he/she's good.

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David Raybould

16 years ago

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

If I could find a "good" copywriter for TWICE that price, I will book ALL your time.

Not to write for my clients. But just to write for me. Hell... get 5 of your friends who are also good and I'll book a year in advance right this minute!

$400 a sales letter written by a "good" copywriter. That's the bargain of the century...

I don't know about hiring them to write
for you... how about hiring them to not
write anything lol

If these guys are so "good", maybe all us
greedy ******* expensive copywriters
should club together and hire them to
not write anything at all...

That way we can keep on being greedy
*******s and having the monopoly on
the market that we've been accused of
a few times now...

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bestfranchisebooks

16 years ago

I'm new to the forum, and a truly god-awful copywriter(but trying to make a half-decent page and I think it's fun), but I do know a thing or two about running a business.. good salespeople are worth their weight in gold. Copywriters make the pages that sell for you. (Granted web pages don't weigh much) but anyone with half a brain realizes they charge what they do because the market bears it. Entrepreneurs will buy the copywriter's copy/sales letter and make a return on their investment.

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by bestfranchisebooks

I'm new to the forum, and a truly god-awful copywriter(but trying to make a half-decent page and I think it's fun), but I do know a thing or two about running a business.. good salespeople are worth their weight in gold. Copywriters make the pages that sell for you. (Granted web pages don't weigh much) but anyone with half a brain realizes they charge what they do because the market bears it. Entrepreneurs will buy the copywriter's copy/sales letter and make a return on their investment.

You're absolutely right. Give the man a cigar (if you're a man. If you're a woman, change cigar to lipstick or something).

The truth is your copywriter is your salesperson. The store with the best sales person wins.

That said, I fully understand the newbies feeling like "Oh god... I can't afford that... I'm just starting out." I get it. 99% of us get it. That's why we keep saying "get a book and learn a little about copy."

You can't afford someone who knows what they're doing? Then learn a little and write your own... get it critiqued... noodle with hit... tweak it... test it... tweak it some more. And I promise you by the end of that process you'll be a better than $500 copywriter. You may even be a few thousands dollar copywriter.

But... hire someone who doesn't know this stuff... isn't really a copywriter but rather an article writer/blogger trying to earn a living... and your $200... or whatever will not be cheap. It will cost you a net loss of $200.

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Hugh Thyer

16 years ago

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

But... hire someone who doesn't know this stuff... isn't really a copywriter but rather an article writer/blogger trying to earn a living... and your $200... or whatever will not be cheap. It will cost you a net loss of $200.

It'll cost you a lot more than $200, think of all the lost sales.

I'm hassling a client at the moment to provide more and more proof of the claims in their product. And I have to do a whole lot of research myself about the market to back up what he's saying.

How could I afford the time to do this if I was only making $200 out of it?

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RAJ Wells

16 years ago

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

LOL... I'd love to know who bestowed the "good" title on these bottom feeders.

I have a great idea... You $200 "good" copywriters obviously are reading this thread. So... why not come public and show your work? Give us some results... some references. Because I'll be damn honest with you...

If I could find a "good" copywriter for TWICE that price, I will book ALL your time.

Not to write for my clients. But just to write for me. Hell... get 5 of your friends who are also good and I'll book a year in advance right this minute!

$400 a sales letter written by a "good" copywriter. That's the bargain of the century...

Now... a $200 sales letter from someone who just decides "hey, I'm good"... well, those are a dime a dozen. Every broke wannabe THINKS he/she's good.

HI Guys

Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

Thanks
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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

HI Guys

Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

At least a few thousand dollars to get results.

I don't mean, "Hey I sold 50 ebooks!" kinda results. I mean, "Honey... my ebook is buying you a new car" kinda results.

If you're looking for that, I always recommend my students. When it goes past that... When you're hoping to make high 5, 6 or even 7 figures... that's when you really should spend low 5 figures to get it.

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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

HI Guys

Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

One thing I've learned about copy... and this is my own experience, nothing more... but it seems like copy either sells well... or not at all.

Selling an ebook is harder than you think. You're selling an intangible product to (often, but not always) computer challenged folks who think the internet is a scam-fest and everyone's out to get you.

Now, as Vin said, the results you want will be dependent on the level of copywriter you hire... and there's no rule you have to spend $10 000 or whatever right off the bat. You could always re-invest that later.

But to get a business with any kind of momentum you're probably looking at a few thousand. At that figure, you know the copywriter values their time, which means they are (hopefully) good at what they do... hell, they convinced you to part with three grand didn't they?

Remember, you are building a BUSINESS here. Offline guys have to buy a storefront, inventory, pay bills, etc etc.

Online, you can cut out a lot of those costs... but not all of them. It's still a business, and businesses require investment... usually in both time AND money.

-Dan

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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

It's not a 25 to 40 dollar ebook. If you expect to sell, say, a thousand of them... that's 25 to 40 thousand dollars.

Now imagine that you get a copywriter to triple your response rate. Now you're making 75 to 120 thousand dollars.

So why wouldn't you pay $10,000 for that copywriter? You're making five to eight times your investment back. Copywriting is like software development: good design adds value faster than it adds cost.
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Collette

16 years ago

Originally Posted by RAJ Wells

HI Guys

Interesting discussion, I totally underdstand you get what you pay for with sales copy. But how much do your really need to spend on copy for a 25 to 40 dollar ebook if your serious and want results?

It depends.

How many 25 to 40-dollar ebooks do you seriously want to sell?

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PaulMartinezCopywriting

16 years ago

Originally Posted by senve

Great post mate.

More than 7 GOOD copywriters PMed me since I started to look for one here on this forum, and ALL-INCLUDED good writing deal is $197.

So those who say $5000 is the minimum for a good copywriter,
they just want to hit the bank by fooling some really naive dreamers...

Well, people have offered you some good advice, which you've chosen to ignore. With copy, like anything else in life, you get what you pay for.

The truth is, it's pretty obvious from your posts you have no idea what you're doing, or what good copy even looks like. You are going to waste $200 on some copy-whore who probably can't even sell you on the value of their own services.

Think about that. A copywriter is, in essence, a salesperson who uses the printed word to persuade prospects to part with their money.

The people who eagerly messaged you looking for a measly $200 job suck so badly at selling that they can't even negotiate a good paycheck for themselves. And you're going to hire them to write the sales letter for your product? Hell, if they can't even sell themselves into a living wage...do you honestly think they can sell ANYTHING?

Look, save yourself some money and a lot of headaches. Go to Amazon.com. Buy the following books, read them carefully, and write your own copy. You will get better results than the $200 streetwalkers and learn something useful at the same time.

The list:

Tested Advertising Methods by John Caples

How to Write a Good Advertisement by Vic Schwab

The Ultimate Sales Letter by Dan Kennedy

The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarnan

Hypnotic Marketing by Joe Vitale

My Life in Advertising/Scientific Advertising by Claude Hopkins

and...

The Robert Collier Letter Book

The three "Must read" books are the ones by Hopkins, Caples, Schwab, and the Collier book. The rest are very, very good but not as important as those four.

Read them thoroughly and then apply what you learned. The Caples book alone will make you a better copywriter than anyone who will drop their drawers for $200.

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emsplanet

16 years ago

Hi,
yes there are writers who can write good sale letters in affordable rate.. but I guess it may be a bit more than $97.

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bestfranchisebooks

16 years ago

I like Monte Cristos.

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Bigsofty

16 years ago

how in the world will I find a good copywriter after all, for under $1,000?

www.copywriter-ac.com

I'm available in July.

B.

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ericjohnson1981

16 years ago

You can actually find great copywriters for much less. Just hire a writer at DP; they work for next to near nothing.

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MontelloMarketing 16 years ago

Originally Posted by ericjohnson1981

You can actually find great copywriters for much less. Just hire a writer at DP; they work for next to near nothing.

LOL And I say that because I don't know how to IM speak "Spitting soda out of my nose laughing."
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- Ken Strong 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing
  
  LOL And I say that because I don't know how to IM speak "Spitting soda out of my nose laughing."
  
  Why, it's SSOOMNL, of course.
  
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- DougBarger 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing
  
  LOL And I say that because I don't know how to IM speak "Spitting soda out of my nose laughing."
  
  Splorf, Vin. The word is splorf.
  
  Urban Dictionary: splorf
  
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Rigmonkey 14 years ago

Originally Posted by ericjohnson1981

You can actually find great copywriters for much less. Just hire a writer at DP; they work for next to near nothing.

I'm not sure whether it's a question of expecting crap from somebody who's willing to work for peanuts that unnerves me with that post, or simply a case of hating that type of exploitation. I wouldn't touch a writer who works for next to nothing for my sake and, more importantly, for theirs.
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Cherilyn Woodhouse

16 years ago

Vin;

How do you know chicks don't dig cigars? LOL (I, in fact, would take a cigar before lipstick - but I'm odd! LOL)

Maybe that's a point to bring up in the next copywriting thread... How most of us are eccentric, strange people, but it helps. LOL

Yes, go hire a copywriter at DP for $100. Or go hire a highschool student. Or hire someone to write 3 articles for $10, and string them together with a "buy now" link at the bottom.

Any of those options will probably give you the same results...

Good copywriters don't charge thousands to take advantage of people. In fact, good copywriters charge thousands to make sure THEY aren't being taken advantage of. Do you question when a lawyer who can get you a million dollar settlement on an accident asks for 25%? Of course not, because you're still up $750k.

So why is $3000 for a copywriter out of the question, when it can make you 6 figures?

Just some food for thought...

- Cherilyn

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Alexa Smith Banned 16 years ago

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- MontelloMarketing 16 years ago
  
  To all the professionals of the female gender let me publicly apologize for my lipstick comment.
  
  Here's what happened...
  
  When I wrote the cigar line I realized it was very gender specific. Sure... women smoke cigars sometimes too... but you all have to admit a cigar brings up a very masculine image.
  
  So... in an attempt to make sure I wasn't EXCLUDING women, I quickly added the lipstick line.
  
  Basically... in my attempt not to raise a gender issue, I ended up raising a gender issue.
  
  Damn me!
  
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- Ron Herman 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by alexa_s
  
  Not that odd - my own instinct was to make exactly the same point, to be honest. I love lipstick too - it's just that the two don't mix very well, really!.
  
  Hey, there's nothing sexier than lipstick stains on a cigar, just ask Monica Lewinsky.
  
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  Cherilyn Woodhouse 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Ron Herman
  
  Hey, there's nothing sexier than lipstick stains on a cigar, just ask Monica Lewinsky.
  
  LMAO ok, now THAT's funny.
  
  Sorry you didn't get what you paid for tgk... I think I speak for all of us when I say we don't like seeing people get taken advantage of by a so-called copywriter
  
  I hope you take that offer for a critique, it will probably help you quite a bit! Good luck!
  
  - Cherilyn
  The Canadian Copywriter
  
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internote007

16 years ago

Some of you have mentioned buying books. Can anyone suggest good copywriting books for this matter?

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Ken Strong 16 years ago

Originally Posted by internote007

Some of you have mentioned buying books. Can anyone suggest good copywriting books for this matter?

There's a sticky thread at the top of this forum:

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html
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TimCastleman

16 years ago

Look there is a lot of good info here to be had on how to write your own copy when you can't afford to pay for it.

I will just say that in my business I have a range that I am willing to accept. If for instance my low amount is $700 and you quote me $500 I do what I can to get you up to $700. If you can't do it, I move on.

Plenty of fish in the sea.

I also think this is an issue where you can't convert everyone to one side or the other. IF they can't pay my fee, we can't work together.

I won't take less and they wont pay more - we can't work together.

You want to pay my fee - great I am ready to work together.

Either way, both sides feet are stuck in sand on this one.

Tim

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BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Michel Fortin tweeted this yesterday:

YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in...

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Hesster 16 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Michel Fortin tweeted this yesterday:

Thanks for posting this... OMG, I never laughed so hard.
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Jon Steel 16 years ago

Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod

Michel Fortin tweeted this yesterday:

YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations

Freaking funny, but very true...

js
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David Raybould

16 years ago

Okay, that last post settles it.

Next time a client quibbles on
price or some other detail, I'm
going to point them straight at
this thread.

What a great video... I missed
the tweet of this, great post
Brian...

Thanks man!

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Roshan C

16 years ago

ok GUYS,

I APOLOGIZE!, You were all correct!

I have lost my money which I' invested for this letter

and I did because this guy showed me a sample which he wrote for ewen chia) heck!....

Lol, this asshole, didint even did a SMALL research on what exactly I am selling, its like I am selling cars, and he wrote a sales letter on how to drive cars fast(just a example) bloddy, I wish i could've agreed with the people on here, cheap copywriters, are always "CHEAP" even tho $197 wasnt atleast FOR ME!

I'll have to do it all myself, I cant even get my money back..... so I've learned a good lesson from my "bad" mistakes...

So I would just like to give out a suggestion, either hire a copywriter whoz not cheap and SERIOUS, or a better one would be, learn copywriting, and always DO IT YOURSELF!.

PS: DP SUCKS! lol...

All the best,
Cheers,
TGK

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BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Originally Posted by tgk

ok GUYS,

I APOLOGIZE!, You were all correct!

I have lost my money which I' invested for this letter

and I did because this guy showed me a sample which he wrote for ewen chia) heck!....

Lol, this asshole, didint even did a SMALL research on what exactly I am selling, its like I am selling cars, and he wrote a sales letter on how to drive cars fast(just a example) bloddy, I wish i could've agreed with the people on here, cheap copywriters, are always "CHEAP" even tho $197 wasnt atleast FOR ME!

I'll have to do it all myself, I cant even get my money back..... so I've learned a good lesson from my "bad" mistakes...

TGK,

I promise you that none of us greedy copywriters take any pleasure in this (well ok, maybe just a teeny smidgen of pleasure...)

We can (and do) post here over and over until we're blue in the face that hiring a copywriter who works for peanuts is almost invariably a colossal waste of your time and your money.

Of course there are exceptions, but there are also RULES. Which do you want to bet on with your last $200?

Notice something... the high dollar copywriters here DON'T WANT YOUR MONEY. The most common advice is to buy some great books and educate yourself so that you DON'T squander your precious cash.

You see who wanted your $200 more than they wanted you to get results don't you?

Having the guts (or desperation) to come back and describe your $200 experience simply drives the point home perfectly.

Send me a PM if you want and I'll review what you've got, on the house. I'm not gonna write it for you, obviously. But I'll at least point you in the right direction and give you a running start...

Best,

Brian

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John_S 16 years ago

It's commendable to actually go into the details of what happened. Sounds like they didn't even write copy what what you're actually selling.

People confuse copywriting for typing something. Copy is salemanship. Multiplied.

Salesmanship is a hard won skill many top copywriters learned through going out and selling face to face. It's not typing. Not writing. Not sprinkling gimmicks onto a page.

didint even did a SMALL research on what exactly I am selling

People refuse to consider the copywriter is still getting a high per hour billable. They're getting it by doing little or no research. (Substituting quantity for quality) Still, missing the product entirely is a real tribute to what cheap copywriters are capable of.

You should also be congratulated on rapid comprehension. You seem to have picked up on things with fewer hard knocks than most.

Headline and Lesson:
The Most Expensive Copywriting Starts Out Cheap ...but it'll cost you

Copy you pay for and can't use is, by far, the most expensive copy you will ever see.
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senve Banned 16 years ago

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- MontelloMarketing 16 years ago
  
  senve,
  
  I don't believe this "copywriter" took money and ran away. I think what he's saying is the copywriter was paid and delivered bad copy (which is what we warned from the beginning).
  
  These are two different issues.
  
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- MikeHumphreys 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by senve
  
  you better expose who is this "mysterious guy" who took your money and ran away...
  
  Rule #1 of the Warrior Forum is to keep all fights private and outside of this forum. Those who choose to disobey it run the risk of Allen (the forum owner) deciding to toss them from the forum forever.
  
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Anomaly1974

16 years ago

Just the humble opinion from someone whose sales copy is depressingly average. My conversion rates for blind traffic seem to hover between two and three percent and for highly targeted traffic between ten and eighteen percent (Yeah, I see the gap there too)

I am desperate so I write a lot to make my bills anyhow.

I am poor so I write cheaply ... my copy is nothing exceptional and I do not pass it off as such.

To compromise? I charge a low base fee and a sliding scale based on conversion rates, (which varies depending on the traffic source)

When people are just starting out, it is difficult to come up with big bucks. They get cheaper copy and somebody who will work with them to make the copy better. I get experience and the opportunity to figure out more about what does and does not work in certain niches.

The biggest problem I have discovered is that many people new to IM are also going to traffic exchange sites, mailing to safelists and other questionable (at best) sources for traffic. The freelance sites are full of people asking for thousands of new email accounts to fill new and improved mailing lists that they turn around and sell or charge for mailing out to ... the end result being that people are not really ever seeing the offers in question.

There are so many variables when writing copy that I can understand why not a lot of people are doing this and someone who has a good reputation would likely lose their reputation (and their ability to charge for it) in a hurry working like this but when you are just starting out, sometimes you have to do the best you can with what you have.

Just my two cents for whatever it's worth

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Anomoly...

First, Mabuhay!

If you're getting 2-3% for blind traffic then I have a ton of work for you and you will no longer be poor.

Please send me a sample of your 2-3% converting sales copy.

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mailco

16 years ago

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

Anomoly...

First, Mabuhay!

If you're getting 2-3% for blind traffic then I have a ton of work for you and you will no longer be poor.

Please send me a sample of your 2-3% converting sales copy.

Yes, me too!

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

16 years ago

I'm going to beg to differ with a few of the guys above this post with their statements that you will receive absolutely crap copywriting for anything less than a four figure sum, let alone someone who is charging close to $100.

The bottom line fact is, that there are some good potential copywriters out there who just starting out upon this journey, who are prepared like myself, to charge around that $100 figure, for the short term.

Personally, I find it a little rude that they would cast us all in the same category, these guys who are presently charging thousands of dollars per copy, stating that our writing of sales copy is absolutely crap.

You don't see these more 'economical' copywriters lamblasting the much more experienced copywriters here, casting aspersions upon their work in such a derogatory manner, so why should it be any more acceptable that they can do the same to other people, that are just starting out down this road?

Everyone has to make a start somewhere and setting one's own business pricing structure is too, a part of that process - finding out what works for them and what doesn't work for them.

Of course it is blindingly obvious that most of us in this 'cheap' category know that we are not charging enough at present - the important point though is being brave enough to take that action and to implement a strategy plan for future success and growth.

Now, I've actually looked over the websites of more than a few of the copywriters here on this forum and I've got to say, that several of these very experienced copywriters do actually have spelling typo's and errors on the very websites where they are trying to advertise and market your own services, which struck me to be perfectly honest as rather odd - given their vast amounts of experience and copywriting knowledge.

One copywriter (I forget who now), went so far as to have one sentence that in anyone's language, made not one iota of sense, in anyone's language, let alone English. It was in fact, an absolutely appalling use of business English if I ever I clapped eyes on such!

It was that, which actually gave me the courage to believe that I could learn this copywriting craft, for I know that whilst my own sentence structure may not be 100% spot on perfection - if they can make mistakes, then certainly I can be allowed to make a few too.

One guy above, stated that he's not seeing any of these cheap copywriters post up any links to their own work online (throwing down the gauntlet so to speak), so allow me to be the first here, to take him up on that challenge and post up a link to my own copywriting work:

Wordpress Squeeze Pages: Wordpress Squeeze Page Generator :Wordpress Squeeze Pages

Now, I charged that gentleman well under $100 for his sales copy.

Do you think for that money he was ripped off?

Do you think for that kind of money, that the work supplied to him was absolutely crap and of very low quality?

I'd be interested in reading a few more views regarding this position.

Many thanks for giving me this opportunity to present an opposing view.

Mark Andrews
IMCopywriting

PS How long did that sales copy take me on the link above?

Answer: About 4 (four) hours with the keyword research included for search engine optimization purposes.

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MikeHumphreys

16 years ago

Sounds like someone touched a nerve with you.

Originally Posted by WordPro

Now, I charged that gentleman well under $100 for his sales copy.

Do you think for that money he was ripped off?

Do you think for that kind of money, that the work supplied to him was absolutely crap and of very low quality?

It's one of the better sales letters in the sub $100 copywriting fee category that I've seen in a while.

The problem you could run into is with projects that take you far more than 4 hours to complete.

For example, I'm working on a salesletter now for a very comprehensive non-IM product. I have about 50 hours in so far and I'm not finished yet. That's reviewing every part of the product... research... writing... editing... polishing the copy... editing some more... polishing some more before turning it over to the client.

If I were to have charged this client a $100, I'd be making less than $2 per hour or about 1/3 of minimum wage in the U.S.

As I said in an earlier post, the downside to doing low-priced copywriting is you need to turn out a higher volume of work each month to make a living wage (whatever that amount is for you). The higher the workload, the higher the likelihood of suffering burnout or an injury like carpal tunnel syndrome.

Ultimately it comes down to you charging what you feel your time and expertise are worth to your clients. The market will then confirm you are indeed worth what you're asking.

Best of luck,

Mike

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting 16 years ago

No, it didn't touch a nerve, not in the absolute slightest.

I was merely presenting another side of the coin, that is all, nothing more and certainly nothing less.

As I stated, new copywriters have to start somewhere.

Simply lumping all sub $1k copywriters into a 'crap' category is simply not on, that is my point.

As we build up our portfolio and copywriting experience and move on from testing the waters, of course it is natural that our rates increase too.

Kindest regards to you too.
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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by WordPro

Personally, I find it a little rude that they would cast us all in the same category, these guys who are presently charging thousands of dollars per copy, stating that our writing of sales copy is absolutely crap.

You can't be a good writer until you're a good reader. If you read back through the advice most of it speaks of what little chance there is of finding someone good... NOT that none are good.

Now, I've actually looked over the websites of more than a few of the copywriters here on this forum and I've got to say, that several of these very experienced copywriters do actually have spelling typo's and errors on the very websites where they are trying to advertise and market your own services, which struck me to be perfectly honest as rather odd - given their vast amounts of experience and copywriting knowledge.

One copywriter (I forget who now), went so far as to have one sentence that in anyone's language, made not one iota of sense, in anyone's language, let alone English. It was in fact, an absolutely appalling use of business English if I ever I clapped eyes on such!

"Business english" has nothing to do with most selling. Learn that before charging a client your first dollar.

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Now, I charged that gentleman well under $100 for his sales copy.

Do you think for that money he was ripped off?

Do you think for that kind of money, that the work supplied to him was absolutely crap and of very low quality?

I'd be interested in reading a few more views regarding this position.

Many thanks for giving me this opportunity to present an opposing view.

No idea if it was money well spent. How much money did it make? How many sales did the guy make?

About 4 (four) hours with the keyword research included for search engine optimization purposes.

Keyword optimization doesn't belong on a sales page... Learn that before charging a client your second dollar.

You see Mark...

Copywriting is supposed to make the sale. It's not supposed to fill the page... not supposed to get optimization... it's not supposed to make the client's wife happy. It's supposed to jam money into the client's pocket.

Those who can do that are worth their weight in gold. Those who can't... are worth nothing.

What you have in this thread are people who are at some level between the two. And most charge accordingly.

Sure... there are some vastly underpriced copywriters here. Guys who are worth many more times than they charge. I know this for a fact because I have students of mine who post on the WF. Some are mid to high 4 figure copywriters charging low 4 figures... Others are 5 figure copywriters charging high 4 figures. Neither will be for long but since it's early in their careers they can be had cheap.

Are there any unpolished gems in the mix who are worth thousands but charge hundreds? Maybe... who knows?

There might be a couple. But should a marketer (especially one who is low on funds) hang his success or failure on an unproven entity?

Let's say I need new tires on my car.

I could buy a trusted Goodyear tire for a couple hundred bucks each... or I could even buy some unknown... untested chinese brand for $25 each.

Which tires do I trust to carry around my infant nephew and niece? Those chi-tires might be great... but probably not. Still they MIGHT be. But am I willing to take that chance? Even if I'm flat broke with only $25 in my pocket I would buy a used tire from a company with a track record before considering the chi-tire.

For many marketers their business is their baby... their infant...

So... sure... absolutely there are great copywriters working cheap. I've just never seen anyone pay a couple hundred dollars for a sales letter and come away from the enterprise with a profit.

So... pay maybe 1000 more and make a few grand...

Or pay a hundred bucks and more often than not kiss that hundred goodbye... plus kiss the money you spent on traffic goodbye... and kiss your time goodbye...

Which one was really the expensive one?

And let me repeat one more time... NOT EVERY CHEAP COPYWRITER SUCKS! But finding one you can successfully trust your livelihood to... that's often impossible.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

16 years ago

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

You can't be a good writer until you're a good reader. If you read back through the advice most of it speaks of what little chance there is of finding someone good... NOT that none are good.

"Business english" has nothing to do with most selling. Learn that before charging a client your first dollar.

No idea if it was money well spent. How much money did it make? How many sales did the guy make?

Keyword optimization doesn't belong on a sales page... Learn that before charging a client your second dollar.

You see Mark...

Copywriting is supposed to make the sale. It's not supposed to fill the page... not supposed to get optimization... it's not supposed to make the client's wife happy. It's supposed to jam money into the client's pocket.

Those who can do that are worth their weight in gold. Those who can't... are worth nothing.

What you have in this thread are people who are at some level between the two. And most charge accordingly.

Sure... there are some vastly underpriced copywriters here. Guys who are worth many more times than they charge. I know this for a fact because I have students of mine who post on the WF. Some are mid to high 4 figure copywriters charging low 4 figures... Others are 5 figure copywriters charging high 4 figures. Neither will be for long but since it's early in their careers they can be had cheap.

Are there any unpolished gems in the mix who are worth thousands but charge hundreds? Maybe... who knows?

There might be a couple. But should a marketer (especially one who is low on funds) hang his success or failure on an unproven entity?

Let's say I need new tires on my car.

I could buy a trusted Goodyear tire for a couple hundred bucks each... or I could even buy some unknown... untested chinese brand for $25 each.

Which tires do I trust to carry around my infant nephew and niece? Those chi-tires might be great... but probably not. Still they MIGHT be. But am I willing to take that chance? Even if I'm flat broke with only $25 in my pocket I would buy a used tire from a company with a track record before considering the chi-tire.

For many marketers their business is their baby... their infant...

So... sure... absolutely there are great copywriters working cheap. I've just never seen anyone pay a couple hundred dollars for a sales letter and come away from the enterprise with a profit.

So... pay maybe 1000 more and make a few grand...

Or pay a hundred bucks and more often than not kiss that hundred goodbye... plus kiss the money you spent on traffic goodbye... and kiss your time goodbye...

Which one was really the expensive one?

And let me repeat one more time... NOT EVERY CHEAP COPYWRITER SUCKS! But finding one you can successfully trust your livelihood to... that's often impossible.

That I do honestly believe, is just about one of the most condescending replies I think I've ever seen on a forum, anywhere. :rolleyes:

Thanks for your so called 'wisdom' on the subject matey, but you know....well, words for once, fail me.

Unbelievable reply.

Absurd to say the least, but there you go.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

16 years ago

So, in effect you are still reiterating the point to which I disagree, with reference to your above comments, that all copywriters who do not charge thousands of dollars for each sales copy supplied, are in effect, not worth anything at all to the individual or person ordering said service?

Surely that flies in the face of business convention?

For by your reply given above, you are in effect saying that there is no room in this particular industry for up and coming copywriters, unless immediately, they start charging thousands of dollars for each writing project undertaken and by price alone, which to be honest for the sake of this discussion is a rather mute point in my opinion - anyone not charging less than several thousand dollars for work submitted, could actually prove to be more expensive in the long run?

Is that what you are saying?

For if so, I personally believe said opinion flies in the face of any business commonsense.

My point, my dear fellow, is that it is possible to find a very good copywriter for the rates as outlined in the OP.

All copywriters have to start off from somewhere, at least you have to take your hat off to anyone, who amid one of the greatest financial meltdown's in history, is at least prepared to give it a go.

I'm sure when you first started off, you didn't immediately set out charging clients $5k plus per sales letter and no doubt too, your copywriting supplied, was not 100% perfect. It's taken you time to get to that position, where you can charge those kind of figures.

But simply lamblasting the lower rates based copywriters, tarnishing them all with the same collective brush and/or label, in effect saying that individuals who buy into their services have a screw missing or worse, that my friend is absolute sheer poppycock and codswallop.

Of course, there are many people out there who cannot write for toffee, let alone compile a reasonable and high converting sales letter, but to tarnish all newer copywriters with this kind of attitude, well, words almost fail me.

The fact is, is that there are always going to be some very good potential copywriters appearing on the scene and if these writers decide to go at it part or full time, they are fully allowed to charge whatever the hec that they want to, whilst they test the waters and/or dip their toes in.

Just because they are in the sub $1k league at the moment doesn't mean that said writers need to put up with undertone comments, basically saying that their work is a complete load of rubbish. :rolleyes:

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by WordPro

So, in effect you are still reiterating the point to which I disagree, with reference to your above comments, that all copywriters who do not charge thousands of dollars for each sales copy supplied, are in effect, not worth anything at all to the individual or person ordering said service?

Seriously... where do you get this stuff from? I said... "NOT EVERY CHEAP COPYWRITER SUCKS! But finding one you can successfully trust your livelihood to... that's often impossible."

Operative words are "not every" and "often impossible." To clarify further... Cheap copywriters are often worth what they charge. But some are better than their prices. Some are underpriced.

Surely that flies in the face of business convention?

I don't know what business convention is. I never studied business. I studied marketing and copywriting from some of the best teachers on the planet.

For by your reply given above, you are in effect saying that there is no room in this particular industry for up and coming copywriters, unless immediately, they start charging thousands of dollars for each writing project undertaken and by price alone, which to be honest for the sake of this discussion is a rather mute point in my opinion - anyone not charging less than several thousand dollars for work submitted, could actually prove to be more expensive in the long run?

Wow... holy long unruly sentence, batman! I'm not saying that in the least. I'm saying if you pay 100 bucks for copy... you'll get a 100 dollar copywriter 99% of the time. Of course newbies belong in the field. I was new once... everyone's new. I'm saying you have to know what you're doing before you charge people a dime. And once you really know what you're doing, you deserve a living wage.

For if so, I personally believe said opinion flies in the face of any business commonsense.

Not saying it... but also I have no idea what business commonsense is.

My point, my dear fellow, is that it is possible to find a very good copywriter for the rates as outlined in the OP.

And my counter-point, my good man is that while possible, it is NEARLY impossible... meaning hard... difficult... certainly not easy.

All copywriters have to start off from somewhere, at least you have to take your hat off to anyone, who amid one of the greatest financial meltdown's in history, is at least prepared to give it a go.

There are ways to "give it a go" that not only afford you a decent living but don't ripoff clients. See... IMO writing someone's marketing when you don't know what you're doing... that's stealing. If you want to "start off from somewhere" just go to clickbank... find a product and write a letter for it. Then market that product. You get paid nothing up front but you learn...

And as you noodle with the letter... as you tweak and refine it... you make sales. Those commissions go in your pocket. If you truly are a "good copywriter" you will make far more than 100 bucks for your work.

I'm sure when you first started off, you didn't immediately set out charging clients $5k plus per sales letter and no doubt too, your copywriting supplied, was not 100% perfect. It's taken you time to get to that position, where you can charge those kind of figures.

My first sales letter I wrote for a contest... I was paid nothing. Winning that contest started my career. My next letter was $500 and it was ghosted for another copywriter. I wrote while he watched over my shoulder and helped me not screw it up.

I learned... while I earned... and never once had to whore myself out. My $500 letter I would have done for free because that marketer/copywriter was giving me a free education. My next letter after that was for a client... $1800...

But simply lamblasting the lower rates based copywriters, tarnishing them all with the same collective brush and/or label, in effect saying that individuals who buy into their services have a screw missing or worse, that my friend is absolute sheer poppycock and codswallop.

I have no idea about your poppy's manhood... and have never been walloped by a fish. But you are yet again failing to see truth. You're blinded by your confusion here. I am "lamblasting(sp)" no one and nothing. I have (not in effect, but actually) said that buying those services are a crap shoot and they truly are. No one's missing a screw... they're just trying to save a buck. I was merely pointing out that when one tries to save a buck, they often save nothing and lose a lot.

Of course, there are many people out there who cannot write for toffee, let alone compile a reasonable and high converting sales letter, but to tarnish all newer copywriters with this kind of attitude, well, words almost fail me.

I don't think words fail you at all. Judging by this post and the PM you so hastily sent me you've obviously got plenty of words.

The fact is, is that there are always going to be some very good potential copywriters appearing on the scene and if these writers decide to go at it part or full time, they are fully allowed to charge whatever the hec that they want to, whilst they test the waters and/or dip their toes in.

Now we're talking about permission? What each writer is "allowed" to do? Hmmm, this conversation is all over the map!

Just because they are in the sub $1k league at the moment doesn't mean that said writers need to put up with undertone comments, basically saying that their work is a complete load of rubbish. :rolleyes:

You're absolutely right! And 100% wrong... all at the same time!

No one should make undertone comments about anyone. You're right about this. What you're wrong about is that anyone was actually making undertone comments. What I said was the entire tone... over, under... middle... bass and treble...

And it wasn't that any individual writer sucks. It was all about finding a good writer and how hard it is to do that when you have no money to spend.

You wanted to stifle that message looks to me like you're only looking out for one person. On the other hand I'm also looking out for the beginning marketers too. The ones who might be tempted to buy cheap copy expecting "it'll be fine for now." I hear it all the time... and all the time those people are unhappy. Not every buyer of course. But every buyer I've spoken to.

Hiring a great copywriter who makes a lot of money isn't any guarantee the project is going to work. But it usually gives you a much better shot. Hiring a brand new, unproven, green, hungry but not fully informed copywriter does not always guarantee a project will die.

Neither of those things are assured. They're just more likely.

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BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Originally Posted by WordPro

The bottom line fact is, that there are some good potential copywriters out there who just starting out upon this journey, who are prepared like myself, to charge around that $100 figure, for the short term.

Psst... Wanna know a really cool secret?

All things being equal, the more you charge, the better client you're going to get. Just sayin'...

I'm a bit puzzlied by your righteous indignation here. You seem to want to prove that you're an exception, not the rule.

Fine, let's agree that you are... so what?

What does that mean?

How many letters do you intend to write for $100.

Presumably, as few as possible until you can command higher fees, right?

DING!

Wait a minute... why should anyone ever pay you a penny over $100 for your copy?

Because it's BETTER, right? Because you're PROVEN, right?

Right... and THAT is why more experienced copywriters bag on cheap hacks.

But more importantly, how did this become about YOU anyway? You're up in arms because you've elected to charge too little or don't have the experience yet to charge more?

I must be missing something. The OP got a nice stiff rogering from his $200 copywriter adventure and you're pissed because we said "we told ya so.."?

Surely we can agree that there are far more under-qualified $100 copywriters than good ones, yes?

If so, then surely you can see the sanity in expressing that thought in a Copywriting Forum, yes?

Brian

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Dan Silverman 16 years ago

Well, I did use a system that taught me the basics of copywriting... and I guess I must be talented! Maybe I should start doing it for $97. lol
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DavidO

16 years ago

This highlights a really frustrating situation that many new marketers can find themselves in. It's a Catch-22: You can't afford a good copywriter, but using cheap ones will never make you the money to hire a good one.

I've paid from $197 to $2000 and everything in between for copy. The funny thing is that the quality difference between $197 and 2 grand was not very much. That's depressing.

With only rare exceptions you won't get high-quality copy for less than 5 figures. Why should copywriting be different from any other market. Popular (i.e. high-converting) copywriters are in highastest demand and can charge the highest rates.

I don't completely agree with the advice to spend $100 on guides and do your own. That's what I've done and after three years of constant striving my copy is profitable, but not sensational. I know there's higher conversion to be had out of my product.

The advantage writing your own copy offers is that nobody else knows your product as well as you do. One hundred hours of research wouldn't come close to the understanding of my product as I have.

But, sadly, some people couldn't write effective copy to save their life. To encourage it is futile. There's no shame in it. There are lots of things I can't do and I won't waste my time trying.

If you're in this situation all you can do is strive to find someone to do your copy on the best terms possible. Maybe with halfway decent copy you can earn enough to take the next stop to decent copy... and then on to excellent copy.

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by DavidO

I've paid from $197 to $2000 and everything in between for copy. The funny thing is that the quality difference between $197 and 2 grand was not very much. That's depressing.

Yep. Judging by some copy I have read I am not surprised. Whats subtle and real is that people are using their price as a calling card. Thats the other side of the equation. Professional Copywriters charge this amount and so do I so the suggestion is that they are truly professional Copywriters. In many cases they aren't even good writers much less Copywriters. They are just good Guru followers.

Heres my bottom line and I think it will work for others. Someone want to claim they are a Pro at Copywriting forget the forum reputation, the self promotion. the claims they make of their close rates and who they have worked for (You can make that up in a New York minute). Just as there are all kinds of ridiculous claims in IM there are in Copywriting.

Let them show you the copy on their site. How effective is it in reaching you their target market? Can they write an original compelling headline for themselves that doesn't scream Copy Cat

? or one that doesn't just totally miss? How much would you pay for the copy they use to sell themselves? because they sure aren't going to be more motivated for you (and shouldn't be).

Do your due diligence to make sure it isn't copied from somewhere else. If they charge $400 or $5,000 live by one simple rule - as the proof is in the pudding the proof is in the copy. If they are good hire em. If they stink -walk. No matter what the rep says or how much they charge high or low.

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low. Thats not because they are not good or talented or able to give you great conversion rates but because of the time it takes for anyone to do adequate research into a product.

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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Interesting theory, but here's the problem...

99% of the time when you need to hire a copywriter, you are unable to judge whether they are a good copywriter or not.

That's because understanding what goes into copywriting is a HUGE skill that very few learn... just look around the copywriting forum to figure that one out.

What matters is how good the copy a copywriter writes is... as in, how well it converts and how much cash it makes.

Anything else is frivolous.

The first question you should ask your copywriter is what kind of successes they've had.

There's a reason Vin Montello can charge what he does... he has a string of successes, one after another. So do guys like Michel Fortin, Matt James, David Raybould, Mike Humphreys, Ray Edwards... etc etc etc.

And nontemplates... you show me one copywriter that charges $3 000 or more (and actually gets clients) who isn't a good writer/copywriter. In almost every case a client dropping that amount of cash will ask around and find out about your rep BEFORE they hire you.

-Dan

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Yep. Judging by some copy I have read I am not surprised. Whats subtle and real is that people are using their price as a calling card. Thats the other side of the equation. Professional Copywriters charge this amount and so do I so the suggestion is that they are truly professional Copywriters. In many cases they aren't even good writers much less Copywriters. They are just good Guru followers.

Heres my bottom line and I think it will work for others. Someone want to claim they are a Pro at Copywriting forget the forum reputation, the self promotion. the claims they make of their close rates and who they have worked for (You can make that up in a New York minute). Just as there are all kinds of ridiculous claims in IM there are in Copywriting.

Let them show you the copy on their site. How effective is it in reaching you their target market? Can they write an original compelling headline for themselves that doesn't scream Copy Cat

? or one that doesn't just totally miss? How much would you pay for the copy they use to sell themselves? because they sure aren't going to be more motivated for you (and shouldn't be).

Do your due diligence to make sure it isn't copied from somewhere else. If they charge $400 or $5,000 live by one simple rule - as the proof is in the pudding the proof is in the copy. If they are good hire em. If they stink -walk. No matter what the rep says or how much they charge high or low.

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low. Thats not because they are not good or talented or able to give you great conversion rates but because of the time it takes for anyone to do adequate research into a product.

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Interesting theory, but here's the problem...

Actually its not a theory and as far as is rational there is no problem. Its a common sense fact. If you can't deliver a good sales page on your own site then you are not worth the money. Period.

99% of the time when you need to hire a copywriter, you are unable to judge whether they are a good copywriter or not. That's because understanding what goes into copywriting is a HUGE skill that very few learn... just look around the copywriting forum to figure that one out.

Yes and no. And this is a good place to have this discussion. If I am your target market and you can't reach me then theres a potential problem no? This is just common sense. If you don't sell yourself well why should I believe you are going to sell my product well. In your sales page your job is to convert me not to explain to me the Huge skill that copywriting is (not at all denying that it is but..... well I'll come to that later).

Well that is the purpose of a sales page isn't it? To sell me on your service and if you fail to do so and actually turn me off why in the world shouldn't I take that into account? You failed to convert me and I am your target. Now if there are some other things that later discount that first experience then fine but I am going to say it bluntly. saying that that shouldn't be a factor and particularly that is frivolous is really quite nonsensical. Its the first piece of hard data I have about a copywriter that isn't just his own claims of what he can do.

The first question you should ask your copywriter is what kind of successes they've had.

If I get that far but thats like asking a used car salesman if a vehicle is reliable. What is he going to say? no? the better question to me is can he provide any references as to his success from a reputable source. And frankly thats where the mine field comes in. Whose the reputable source? See I've been to many a sales page that claims high conversion rates but so far I have not seen even one post anything solid to prove it.

There's a reason Vin Montello can charge what he does... he has a string of successes, one after another. So do guys like Michel Fortin, Matt James, David Raybould, Mike Humphreys, Ray Edwards... etc etc etc.

Not terribly relelvant to the those looking for something they can afford. I get the track record and it is sound and concrete but most people on this board are not being approached by any big name in copyWriting and they have to make a determination based on far less data with a name with far less notoriety .

In almost every case a client dropping that amount of cash will ask around and find out about your rep BEFORE they hire you.

From who? Where should they ask? Again it isn't where most live. Alot of people on this board don't know a soul who has hired a Copywriter and frankly to me its downright dangerous to plop down thousands of dollars with someone because he/she is touted by a few people they don't know personally on a forum and who have online friendships that may bias them entirely. I don't get the point of trying to attach a price tag to a skill set as if those who charge it have a rite of passage to be included in a good copy writers club. its backways is what I am saying. I'm not at all claiming that there are not copy writers worth that.

So I don't get the novelty or controversy in what I said. Its no theory. If you can't show some of what you got on your sales page then why should anyone go any further? Proof is in the pudding. You burn it while I am deciding and its on to the next baker.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

16 years ago

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Heres my bottom line and I think it will work for others. Someone want to claim they are a Pro at Copywriting forget the forum reputation, the self promotion. the claims they make of their close rates and who they have worked for (You can make that up in a New York minute). Just as there are all kinds of ridiculous claims in IM there are in Copywriting.

Let them show you the copy on their site. How effective is it in reaching you their target market? Can they write an original compelling headline for themselves that doesn't scream Copy Cat

? or one that doesn't just totally miss? How much would you pay for the copy they use to sell themselves? because they sure aren't going to be more motivated for you (and shouldn't be).

Do your due diligence to make sure it isn't copied from somewhere else. If they charge $400 or $5,000 live by one simple rule - as the proof is in the pudding the proof is in the copy. If they are good hire em. If they stink -walk. No matter what the rep says or how much they charge high or low.

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low. Thats not because they are not good or talented or able to give you great conversion rates but because of the time it takes for anyone to do adequate research into a product.

On another thread just recently, where you were attacking Daniel Scott, Onslaught (Paul), Bill Jeffels and myself - you were making very direct and very negative remarks concerning my business, rubbishing my reputation here on this forum as a copywriter, mentioning my own headlines and also bringing one of my WSO threads into disrepute, in the thread itself.

Just because one disagrees with a point of view by you, does not give you an excuse to use every sly means possible, to damage another copywriters reputation here on this forum.

I'm sure that it is no accident at all, that in the above highlighted words, you have managed yet again to draw attention to my website, with the capitalization of my business name, putting a capital 'C' on the word copywriting, immediately after your inclusion of the two letters 'IM'.

I can see exactly what you are up to again - I had a problem with you before going around the forum rubbishing everyone's business here and here you are slyly doing the same again, making the insinuation that another copywriter here is no good etc with your surrounding words.

At best you are a very sly and devious individual. At worst, I won't say.

You know I've already had to put you on to my Ignore List, the very first Warrior member here to have that 'priviledge', for your constant stream of attacks before.

I don't know you, you've never been a client of mine, you don't know my copy and yet you try at every opportunity possible to bring my name into disrepute.

Mark
IMCopywriting.com

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by WordPro

On another thread just recently, where you were attacking Daniel Scott, Onslaught (Paul), Bill Jeffels and myself - you were making very direct and very negative remarks concerning my business, rubbishing my reputation here on this forum as a copywriter, mentioning my own headlines and also bringing one of my WSO threads into disrepute, in the thread itself.

Just because one disagrees with a point of view by you, does not give you an excuse to use every sly means possible, to damage another copywriters reputation here on this forum.

WOW! what an incredible distortion. As I recall just as now I got attacked for posting my thoughts without respect to any particular copywriter. Raises some questions as to why - but you know what? I am going to honor this as a sticky thread about finding an affordable copy writer. Anyone want to see who started attacking who can go to the thread

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...opy-blows.html

and no there was no "bringing one of my WSO threads into disrepute in the thread itself - such a thing would be a bannable offense which is why a writer who doesn't like a difference of opinion would write it that way. Let it rest there this is an excellent thread and I'm not going to participate in derailing it

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MikeHumphreys

16 years ago

Originally Posted by DavidO

This highlights a really frustrating situation that many new marketers can find themselves in. It's a Catch-22: You can't afford a good copywriter, but using cheap ones will never make you the money to hire a good one.

I've paid from $197 to $2000 and everything in between for copy. The funny thing is that the quality difference between $197 and 2 grand was not very much. That's depressing.

With only rare exceptions you won't get high-quality copy for less than 5 figures. Why should copywriting be different from any other market. Popular (i.e. high-converting) copywriters are in highastest demand and can charge the highest rates.

I don't completely agree with the advice to spend $100 on guides and do your own. That's what I've done and after three years of constant striving my copy is profitable, but not sensational. I know there's higher conversion to be had out of my product.

David,

You raise some very good points. Here's one suggestion I can offer. Write your sales letter as best as you can. Identify a copywriter, either by reputation or proof (i.e. client testimonials) that you like their writing style.

Ask them what they would charge you for a sales letter critique. It might be written or it might be a Camtasia type critique... depends on the copywriter.

A critique with them will be a fraction of their normal sales letter from scratch and they will give you a lot of useful information on how to improve your sales letter yourself.

Another option is to join a membership site like Ray Edwards' Learn Copy or Fortin's Copy Doctor to get access to more advanced copywriting knowledge.

Hope that helps,

Mike

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rinde Banned 16 years ago

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Chris Sorrell 14 years ago

Just buy 'Writing Riches' by Ray Edwards. It's the best $12 you could ever spend.
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Anomaly1974

16 years ago

I will see what I can find on my cds. I am just now rebuilding from nothing but personally, I thought those numbers were pretty average. I know when I was doing real world marketing, I expected nothing less than five percent from a "blind" mailing.

Now before I go making an ass out of myself, by blind traffic I mean no PPC or anything, just whoever happens along the sites. PPC I have never had the luxury of working with. The only sales pages I have done for others were for highly targeted lists in areas I know a bit about.

If you are serious, I can do a couple of free pages, test them of your own accord and if you get good results, give me a kick back and a testimonial perhaps.

In the meantime, I will break out some cds today ... I lost my old website and pretty much everything else so right now I am working with a cd player on a PII with an 8gig hard drive but I can swing by the net cafe with my DVDs this week and see what I can find.

And no, I am not trying to cut anybody's throat here. I am a fairly good marketer for impulse markets and that is where my experience is but yes, I am desperate too LOL (What I would give for a new laptop eh?) so if you are serious and you have a small project you do not mind "risking", I will happy to provide you with a sales page and see what you do with real testing. Mind you, I am not talking about safelists like I am using at the moment ... but with "real traffic" I am confident that you will get good results. Mind you, in the past, those numbers come from continuing to work with my clients (on a sliding scale I had to) and testing and tweaking but I am certainly open to any work I can get at the moment.

Now, I cannot think of any more excuses for failure LOL but seriously, if you have some projects that you want to test it out on, I am more than happy to work with you. In the meantime, I have a request up for a critique of my newest sales letter so you may want to look at that to find out what you think ... mind you that was a two-hour job and not for a paying client so it may not be a great example.

Just my two cents

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MontelloMarketing 16 years ago

Just send me the best representation of your best online sales letter work.
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copywarrior

16 years ago

Originally Posted by tgk

Hey guys,

Do you think it is possible to get a GOOD sales letter writer at an affordable price? like is it possible to get a sales-writer at $97? I know we have some expert copywriters here, So I am not trying to insult anyone with it.

I am just trying to get some help? :confused:
I dont think I could write sales letters myself, so anything would be appreciated.

Cheers,
TGK

Hi TGK,

Yes it's possible to find a writer to do your copy at that price. Especially if it's a noob. Do check your PM inbox tonight. Like Cherilyn said, YOU might just find a hidden GEM

Cheers to fruition!
Jay B.

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vistad

16 years ago

If you offer peanuts you get a monkey. On the other hand you could try the Philippines or India, US peanuts would be like coconuts for those two countries.

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

Originally Posted by senve

I found a software that writes you as many Sales letters as you need, and it costs just $97 once.

It is obviously not my website, but I guess it answers the question: Yes, affordable sales letters writers can be found !

If you make 10 sales letters with this software, the price is just 9.7 usd per sales letter

B.U.R.P.I.E.S. - makes copywriting easy

Senve... come on now... I thought you had learned a valuable lesson here. Don't slide backward.

This software is not going to sell anything for you. Trust me on this. You'd be wasting another $97.

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David Raybould

16 years ago

Originally Posted by senve

If you make 10 sales letters with this software, the price is just 9.7 usd per sales letter

That may be true, but surely the desired
result here is to make sales, not salesletters?

When your ten salesletters don't make a single
sale between them, you're still out 97 bucks.

Sorry dude.

-David Raybould

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MontelloMarketing

16 years ago

To my fellow copywriters...

This thread (and the dozens just like it) has really begun to tire me out. So... I have a new tack. Maybe this will stop these threads from cropping up..

The original question was: Is it possible to find "affordable" Sales Letter Writers?

My new answer is "no... it's not. Bye now."

Maybe THAT should be a sticky.

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dorothydot

16 years ago

Yes. You are right. We copywriters are here basically to help each other learn, share our experiences and grow in our craft... at least, those are my reasons for participating.

I am NOT here to provide cheap labor to demanding gimme-gimmie people. That is rude and demeaning.

Non-copywriters don't understand how close our craft is to writing poetry. Why? Because when we succeed in producing effective copy, the wordings and tone are so familiar, so natural that when you read it, you think: Jeez, that's exactly how I think. I could write that in my sleep!

NOT! It's like watching any expert at work. They are sooo skilled in their craft that they make it look easy. Take an electrician replacing a light fixture. He doesn't even turn off the electricity; just unscrews the old one, wires in the new then screws it in. No problem, right? Only took like 15 mins, tops.

But you bet-ter darn sight cut off that power before YOU try replacing a light fixture! And I suspect it'd take you a whole lot longer to get it done. Not to mention the likelihood of blowing a fuse when you try it out, lol.

So we do deserve respect for our expertise. Visitors to this forum need to recognize this!

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Dot

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PaulMartinezCopywriting

16 years ago

Originally Posted by dorothydot

Yes. You are right. We copywriters are here basically to help each other learn, share our experiences and grow in our craft... at least, those are my reasons for participating.

I am NOT here to provide cheap labor to demanding gimme-gimmie people. That is rude and demeaning.

Non-copywriters don't understand how close our craft is to writing poetry. Why? Because when we succeed in producing effective copy, the wordings and tone are so familiar, so natural that when you read it, you think: Jeez, that's exactly how I think. I could write that in my sleep!

NOT! It's like watching any expert at work. They are sooo skilled in their craft that they make it look easy. Take an electrician replacing a light fixture. He doesn't even turn off the electricity; just unscrews the old one, wires in the new then screws it in. No problem, right? Only took like 15 mins, tops.

But you bet-ter darn sight cut off that power before YOU try replacing a light fixture! And I suspect it'd take you a whole lot longer to get it done. Not to mention the likelihood of blowing a fuse when you try it out, lol.

So we do deserve respect for our expertise. Visitors to this forum need to recognize this!

Thanks,
Dot

Awesome, awesome post Dot! The analogy to poetry is a great one--my concentrations in college were fiction writing and poetry, and copywriting is very similar in the absolute precision required--complete emotional connection with no wasted words. Not an easy task.

I remember going on 24 hour Kerouac-esque writing binges, followed by 24 hours of sleeping and occasioanlly crawling out of bed to eat.

Writing, good writing, is exhausting. I've spent 6 weeks living and training with professional fighters in the jungles of Thailand and that's the ONLY thing that has ever come close to the level of exhaustion those writing binges inflicted on me.

Expecting someone to kill themselves cranking out a killer sales letter for peanuts IS insulting, and demeaning...and the copywriters who accept those fees should be ashamed of themselves. Not for being so cheap, but for taking someone's money and delivering a crappy product. Total lack of integrity IMO.

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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by dorothydot

Non-copywriters don't understand how close our craft is to writing poetry.

Poets do. We may not know that particular form... but we still recognise it as art.
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Ashley Ann

16 years ago

Yes, it is. Though more difficult to find. I have a GREAT writer that does salesletters for under $300. Though of course, then you have to test and tweak.

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webdude2000

16 years ago

Hi

After reading this thread, I don't believe a good sale copy can be found for cheap.

The objective is sales not pages. I know if the requirements to create a sales page and have done a few but when I compare mine to great copy writers, mine is crap and I now only use copy writers.

The sales from the sales page is the most important aspect of your product. No matter how good your product is, if you have a crap sales page, you will not sell much. It is not about the page, it is about the emotional and psychological triggers.

Having been working/partnering with a great if not awesome copy writer who has posted to this thread, I am extremely impressed. This is the difference between a successful launch and just putting something up on the internet.

Yes, there are those few gems who are good and may charge less than $1,000 but as people have said you get what you pay for.

Remember one of the most successful ways to launch a product is via JVs and trust me if your sales copy is not up to scratch then you won't get many JVs promoting your product nor affiliates via Clickbank.

As for those software applications that create sales pages for you, I have tried a few as well as sales page templates and although they create and format the sales pages correctly they do not target those sales triggers. I find these apps a complete waste of time.

Regards
Mark

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Roshan C

16 years ago

Nice - This thread got Sticky, I've updated the main thread a bit. Hope it all helps.

Cheers,
Roshan

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djleon1 16 years ago

Anyone reading this who is in the market for an "affordable" copywriter beware. I used WF to hire someone to write me some "affordable" copy ($125) and it was complete and utter garbage. The writer explained to me that this was cheap but they would accept as they had the time and blah blah blah.

Anyway I got my money back from them and deleted the copy from my hard drive as it just hurt my eyes to read it. Lesson learned - I now KNOW I need to spend some real money if I want to get great copy from a pro who will work with me. I know a lot of copywriters have been on this thread explaining this point but I just wanted to give a customers perspective on it.

Also - the hackwork of a sales copy in my link below is my own after trolling other sales pages and putting my terrible talent to work (though it converts pretty well)/
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snowtigress

16 years ago

I hear you guys, loud and clear. Finding a good copywriter for less than 1k is difficult. Writing copy LOOKS easy, but there's a hidden structure to it that takes forever to learn and most people starting a business just don't have that kind of time. When you're interviewing a potential copywriter, ask them how long they've been studying copy. (That's right, I said studying, NOT flipping through the latest "How to Write Copy" book). This simple question will help you weed out who is good and who is a standard writer pretending they can write copy. It takes a solid year of studying to be great enough to charge 1k and up. The ones charging even more have been in the biz for several years. It's not cheap, folks, but these people are the ones that make YOU money. It does pay off in the long run.

About me: I'm what you would call a "copywriter in training." I've been studying copy for 6 months now from a professional copywriting course (cost 3k). AND I have a mentor that's been in the biz several years that checks my work before I hand it over to clients. I'm really sorry to hear some of you have been ripped off by people that do zero research or just can't write. That's not what real copywriters do. Follow the suggestion I mentioned above and you'll weed out the fakes. If anyone has attempted to write their own sales letter, feel free to send it to me for critique. I will offer Warrior members 3 FREE suggestions on how to improve your letter. That's a good-will gesture those greedy fakes won't offer!

Go ahead and send me your letter now before the weekend arrives to get some useful tips.

PS. I just joined Warrior and I'd love to get to know you all and see how this site works, so feel free to send welcome emails!

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sarahberra 16 years ago

Hello my friend! Great post. A good copywriter at an affordable price is hard to find but you know that I think they should be paid the big bucks. Its not easy! I get frustrated when I see people trying to offer writers $5 for a unique article with keywords added. I mainly write for Demand Studios and small magazines, but I am trying to learn sales copywriting. I have so much to learn because my writing style is not very "sales" orientated. However, I can always learn. I am looking for the right training course. What course are you taking? I want to learn about grant proposal writing and how to write sales copy.
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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Wordpro,

Chill.

There are definitely great copywriters who start out low. Mike Humphreys wrote his first letter for $300 or so, I think, as did Bruce Wedding (I remember reading this somewhere... correct me if I'm wrong guys!).

Vin wrote his first paid letter for $500.

But they're the exception. For every one of them, there's about a thousand hack writers who charge next to nothing and put out crappy work... again, and again, and again...

Think of it like the lottery. Sure, if you buy a ticket, you might win that ten million bucks... but you have a snowball's chance in hell.

Let me tell you something... writing a good letter takes a lot of time. I have never met a good copywriter who can say otherwise. Writing a letter that LOOKS, to the untrained eye (which is why you get a copywriter in the first place, usually) that it will work is easy.

Actually writing one that DOES convert is far, far harder.

To write a good letter, you have to study the market til you know them inside out. Analyze the competition. Intimately aquaint yourself with the client's product. Derive a USP. Understand WHAT you're going to say in the letter...

So, right there, that's probably at least 20 hours worth of work before you start writing.

If you charge $100/letter, that's $5/hr... not exactly worth it when you can make more at Maccas.

Now, understand that I have been a $100 writer... so I know what I'm talking about. When I started out, I did 4 letters for $97/piece... and you know what? Those letters took me about 20 hours each. They were good... not amazing, but good, and from what I hear, the clients who actually used them made some okay money out of them.

So the next two letters I wrote were at $500... and they were better... and took 25 hours each. So now I'm making an okay wage... but still not a great one... considering the insane amount of work that I put into them (and the insane amount of money they have the capacity to generate).

Then I started working with Vin... and my letters are now taking even longer to write... but they're getting pretty good. And I now charge about $3 000 a letter... and that's increasing every letter.

So it's taken me about 10 letters, I think, to go from $100/letter to $3 000/letter... and people who are smarter than I am don't start at $100.

Can you see now why it is next to impossible to get a good writer for $100?

Here's the other side of the coin... I get a much better class of client. Clients actually USE the letters I write for them... generate traffic, and get solid results... which I can then use to get more clients...

So, whilst I'm not down on all low-fee copywriters... having been one myself, if only briefly (although some would probably still consider me a low-fee copywriter)... I do understand that most of them can't write worth a cup of cold water.

Now, since you brought it up, let's look at your 4-hour letter at Wordpress Squeeze Pages: Wordpress Squeeze Page Generator :Wordpress Squeeze Pages

Now, by skimming this letter real quick I can see some major problems. Your headline's too long. You are light on benefits and emotional punch. The order of your copy's "parts" doesn't really flow well, your bullets are non-existent (nobody really cares about a "feature", only what it will do for them)... and so on.

Now, here's the funny thing... I bet if you spent another twenty hours on that letter, or whatever... you could make it absolutely killer. There are some really strong points that you've hinted at... and if you had a mentor they would show this up for you.

But as it stands, it's pretty weak. And, as Mike said, it's one of the better $100 letters I've seen.

Now, I'm not trying to be a dick for the sake of it. It's clear you have an excellent grip on the English language (better than myself for certain, and probably many others)... and you've obviously at least studied some copywriting. If you keep writing, I think you could be an amazing copywriter.

High fees come with confidence, and confidence comes with proven results... and proven results comes with writing a lot of good letters.

So until you can show me someone who has written more than a few low priced letters who consistently hits it "out of the park"... your comments are just misleading. They're a nice thought, sure, but they ain't reality.

-Dan

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

16 years ago

Ok, so I'll admit it, there's some bloody good points made in the above three replies, I'll take some of my previous remarks back.

As in conversation, one haggles one's point of view, or many, some are right and some are wrong, but if we are prepared to listen, that is how we actually learn something and adapt our viewpoint accordingly - it's called the learning process and admittedly, I've some way to go yet.

So to the three of you above, thanks for your time in replying, believe it or not, your time making those replies, explaining your own point of view, even if I disagree on one or two minor points, on the whole I appreciate your time and thoughts on this matter and getting right down to it - that has taught me instantly, a couple of very important facts which I shall have to implement, if I wish to take this a few steps further, onwards and upwards.

I would have replied earlier this evening too - unfortunately a bloomin' great thunderstorm or two were passing over / through tonight with lots of forked lightning, so the computer had to be switched off for several hours, waiting for the storms to pass through, to protect my modem.

Chilled? I'm very chilled, if you want to know how chilled, read my thread from last night in the Success forum, one doesn't get much more chilled out than that.

Admittedly though, I am a bit of a feiry, passionate creature at the best of times, something I am aware of and too, have to work on often.

For what it's worth, if you'll take it, I wish you all the very best and a jolly good weekend.

Thanks.

Mark

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BrianMcLeod

16 years ago

Originally Posted by WordPro

Ok, so I'll admit it, there's some bloody good points made in the above three replies, I'll take some of my previous remarks back.

As in conversation, one haggles one's point of view, or many, some are right and some are wrong, but if we are prepared to listen, that is how we actually learn something and adapt our viewpoint accordingly - it's called the learning process and admittedly, I've some way to go yet.

So to the three of you above, thanks for your time in replying, believe it or not, your time making those replies, explaining your own point of view, even if I disagree on one or two minor points, on the whole I appreciate your time and thoughts on this matter and getting right down to it - that has taught me instantly, a couple of very important facts which I shall have to implement, if I wish to take this a few steps further, onwards and upwards.

Classy post, Mark.

Onward and upward indeed!

Best,

Brian

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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Mark,

It's great to know that you've actually taken our advice on board. Most people just ignore what you have to say... even had you honesty and truly read it, thought about it, and discarded it, I would have been happy.

It takes balls to say "I was wrong" or even "I wasn't 100% right"... and I wish more people around had the wisdom and courage you do.

By the way, a quick tip from a fellow copywriter... use shorter sentences. Your whole paragraphs are one big sentence... split them up and use elipses (...) instead of commas wherever possible.

Just a tip I've picked up from a far better writer than myself.

-Dan

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MontelloMarketing 16 years ago

It's all good, Mark. Now go make some money!
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redlake2

16 years ago

Great thread eveyone. :-)

I have copywriting issues too. I couldn't afford to hire anyone so took an option to have a consultation phonecall with a good copywriter. Then I spent four days getting my head into the right space and wrote a sales letter that doesn't sell.

Apparently my letter is 1000 times better than my first but I really don't like writing. There were a ton of things that I would rather have spent four days working on.

I am good at back end creating products but can't seem to get the front end sales right.

I was thinking about joint venturing with a copywriter but don't know whether that is a more viable option to go with rather than paying someone.

What do you guys think?

I am concerned that I am going to have someone come to me and say hey yeah I am good, i would like to joint venture with you, and then turn out to be not too good.

What kind of questions or expectations should I have for someone to prove themselves?

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Dean Dhuli

16 years ago

Originally Posted by redlake2

I am concerned that I am going to have someone come to me and say hey yeah I am good, i would like to joint venture with you, and then turn out to be not too good.

What kind of questions or expectations should I have for someone to prove themselves?

To say the truth, that is the least of your concerns.

On the contrary...

If a copywriter is really good... and if he has hung already long enough
to know the ins and outs of this business... YOU will have a hard time
convincing HIM that you're serious about making the project a success.

More often than not, what happens is that the copywriter spends 3 weeks
to a month writing, editing, polishing the copy.

And then the product creator... he suddenly loses interest in the product
or sees that it's not turning out like he thought it would... and simply stops
promoting it.

It's THAT easy for the product creator to give up when he hasn't invested
much money in the product.

But when you look at it from the copywriter's viewpoint, he has spent a
whole month writing copy for the product... and what did he make
eventually?

Nothing!

So as far as I know, unless you know a copywriter really well PERSONALLY...
and he knows for the fact that you're a serious marketer... you will have
a VERY hard time convincing a good copywriter to JV with you.

Hope this helps,
Dean Dhuli.

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redlake2

16 years ago

Wow, thanks Dean.

My problem is that I don't lose interest and keep on persisting. Bad copy and all.

So what I am hearing is that there are three phases.

The product creation.
The copywriting.
The promotion.

Collating all of those into an overall business structure is an issue too. So it seems I will need to joint venture with more than one person, locally, who knows and trusts me, to succeed.

The only way forward that I can see is to fill in the gaps of what I don't have with people that do have what I need.

But you are right. How do I get to know these people and have them understand how persistent I am.

I don't see the point of so much persistence if it is not targeted within a proper framework that is going to give a profitable outcome.

mmm, how can I make it happen, i wonder...

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Dean Dhuli

16 years ago

Originally Posted by redlake2

Wow, thanks Dean.

My problem is that I don't lose interest and keep on persisting. Bad copy and all.

So what I am hearing is that there are three phases.

The product creation.
The copywriting.
The promotion.

Collating all of those into an overall business structure is an issue too. So it seems I will need to joint venture with more than one person, locally, who knows and trusts me, to succeed.

The only way forward that I can see is to fill in the gaps of what I don't have with people that do have what I need.

But you are right. How do I get to know these people and have them understand how persistent I am.

I don't see the point of so much persistence if it is not targeted within a proper framework that is going to give a profitable outcome.

mmm, how can I make it happen, i wonder...

How can you make it happen?

I don't know. Maybe if you're introduced to the copywriter by a mutual
friend who knows you and your capabilities really well.

That's the only way I can think of because getting a complete stranger to
trust you cannot and will not happen overnight. It takes time to build a relationship.

If you go to an established copywriter and say "you write copy for me and
I'll pay you 50% of the profits", his reaction will be like "yeah, right!"

Don't take it that he's being arrogant or anything.

You get this kind of response because he probably got burnt on similar
deals before.

I personally have. Did a couple of JV deals when I was starting out and
never got paid a single penny for the copy.

Plus, as if to add salt to the wound, the copywriter eventually gets
accused of writing copy that's worthless and ineffective.

Do they really need that?

And then...

Even if you get the copy free, you'll still need money for PPC, graphics,
buying affiliate software, etc. Unless your product is in the IM niche,
you'll also not have 300 affiliates with huge lists promoting it right off
the bat.

So these are also some of the things you need to consider.

Established copywriters won't agree to JVs for exactly this reason -- most
newbies don't know how to market the product even if you give them
the best copy in the world.

However, if you remove your fixation for a good copywriter... settle for a
decent one (somebody who's just starting out probably)... and also get a
traffic expert with moderate expertise on board, there's no reason why you
can't do well as a team.

Take care,

Dean

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Mike30

16 years ago

It's incredible how much I have learned in this single thread. Thank you all.

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redlake2

16 years ago

Thanks Dean,

I am in a business marketing group here in Australia so I have already got good relationships. Its another month before we meet up. At least I have more of an idea about the 'reality' of the situation.

Thanks :-)

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Bizwayze

16 years ago

Seems to me, if you can write good copy for yourself, Killer-ads that you know are effective, why shouldn't you make a few extra bucks writing copy for other people?

Someone described Copywriters as 'Bottom-Feeders'.. For me, if client and provider are both happy, what's wrong with that?

And to think about it., who made the most money in the 1849 Gold Rush? The guys who sold shovels and pans, that's who. Now they were bottom feeders, but they didn't get their hands quite so dirty!

jj

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Astounding Writing Coach

16 years ago

I think so far I've invested $4k - $5k training myself to learn copywriting. Notice I said "invest'? That's what you're paying for when you hire a copywriter. Someone who is providing a tool to help you get a ROI of the letter.

You might consider going to AWAI (American Writers and Artist's Institute) for a great course. It was one of the best investments of my professional copywriting career.

Susan

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reedcopywriting

16 years ago

I think it's more about the sales letter writer and less about the price.

You can find people who are charging WAY TOO MUCH for boring, crappy copy... and you can find people who are charging $200 for copy that is powerful and effective.

Some copywriters use templates, they follow a set pattern and they don't take the time to create original hooks that grab reader's attention... and these copywriters aren't worth any amount of money.

But if you can find a copywriter who will take the time to get into the mind of your buyer and identify the CORE reason for buying... then they are worth any fee.

I think the key to finding a good copywriter for a low proce is to find someone who is working to build their business up and willing to work for less money.

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Kyle Tully

16 years ago

Originally Posted by reedcopywriting

I think the key to finding a good copywriter for a low proce is to find someone who is working to build their business up and willing to work for less money.

Isn't that, by definition, what ALL low-priced copywriters are doing?

No copywriter who has "built their business up" and is "not willing to work for less money" will work for a low fee

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la dominatrix

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Roshan C

Hey guys,

Do you think it is possible to get a GOOD sales letter writer at an affordable price? like is it possible to get a sales-writer at $97?

Your question is "Can I afford To Purchase a good sales letter?"

My question is
"Can you afford not to?"

By that I mean you will get more concersions. However if you cannot afford a couple of thousand for your sales letter write your own and save your profits if there are any ot get a sales letter with a better conversion rate!
La dominatrix

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AndrewMurray

16 years ago

For $97 bucks you should buy a salesletter software - from Marlon Sanders or Mark Hendricks and just follow the step-by-step instructions.

I don't outsource my salescopy -as you need to be in touch to really nail it.

However, paying someone to make it better is another thing...

It pays to know how to do the bones of it yourself, IMO

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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Originally Posted by wealthambition

For $97 bucks you should buy a salesletter software - from Marlon Sanders or Mark Hendricks and just follow the step-by-step instructions.

I don't outsource my salescopy -as you need to be in touch to really nail it.

However, paying someone to make it better is another thing...

It pays to know how to do the bones of it yourself, IMO

IMHO that sales letter software is terrible... I think you're much better off NOT using it than you are trying to fit your copy into a mold like that.

And FYI, most copywriters will start from scratch rather than do a rewrite unless your copy is already pretty damn good... because it's much easier and the result is usually better.

-Dan

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Dan Silverman

16 years ago

My recommendation is to do as much as possible on your own. First you learn about copywriting from this forum, then you can even watch free videos and advice on it. My boy Brian McElroy has so many free vids on copywriting. I followed those videos to a T to write my first copy letter.

Do as much of the background research as possible, write the copy letter as best as you can, and get in touch with a recommended copywriter. Ask a high priced copywriter to recommend a good copywriter who can clean it up for you at a reduced rate. His reputation will be on the line if he recommends you to someone so he's likely to refer you to someone good. He/she would know what good copywriting talent is.

Provide this person with all the work you've done. The copyletter you wrote, a thorough summary of your research, and anything you can do to make it easier on the copywriter. You should expect a "clean and polish" job for about $500 or so. But seriously, it's worth the investment and when it comes to copy, you get what you pay for.

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Lori Reno

16 years ago

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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

No offense Dan... but 99% of the time if someone asks for a "re-write"... or a "polish job"... their copy is seriously flawed to begin with... and it's easier to start over.

If you've hit all the right points and just need someone to shorten your sentences... use stronger wording... maybe re-write a subhead or two... then sure, a re-write will do it (but I would expect it to run you closer to $1 000 for a cheap writer (a GOOD cheap writer that is)).

The thing is though, more than half of what we do as copywriters is to get all those points nailed... so a rewrite won´t help unless things are already pretty goddamn good.

Dan

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Thrive-Online.com

16 years ago

Hi Roshan,

If you want to have a great sales letter written at that price my friend, you'd be better of buying a book on copywriting from the likes of one of the greats, like Michel Fortin, Gary Halbert, Dan Kennedy, Awaionline, Clayton Makepeace or Marlon Sanders...

These guys know their copywriting and can give you the basics of a solid letter, from there, you could "SAVE" your money and model a great letter from someone you know is doing well from theirs (don't copy it, model it) and from there test, test and test some more.

Out of all the great skills you can learn, copywriting is one of them and you should learn this skill yourself... My thoughts are, for $97 you would do a better job yourself than outsource it, as most copywriters even in the $400 to $1000 range are quite ordinary...

Good copy comes from deeply knowing your product and the problem that it solves and it's not hard to do once you know the basics, always stick to the basics, don't pressure your reader, be natural and allow your copy to flow out of you then polish it up and shorten it and you'll be fine.

As long as you have the basic ingredients in place and you'll be on good ground to go from there.

Model the greats you can't go too far wrong my friend.

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ideapro

16 years ago

I agree with MikeHumphreys above. His analysis is right on target.

The problem you have when you try to hire a copywriter for under $100 is that either the copywriter would have to already know you, your product, your competition, and the target audience/readership of your sales letter -- all of them -- really, really well. Before he began your project. Then, he'd have to (okay, or she'd have to) be able to knock-out your copy in a couple hours at most, or maybe even a few minutes!

Do you know anyone with a couple of late model cars, a nice house, an education, and in-depth knowledge of you, your specialty, your competition, and your audience... who is ready to work for only $30, $40 or $50 bucks an hour? In other words, is there someone around who has obligations, bills to pay, a life, and ALSO the willingness to write your email letter or sales pitch... at a small fraction of what he/she needs to maintain his/her successful lifestyle?

Maybe.

And that person is probably your brother, or your father, or sister... or your mother. Anyone else would need you to pay them enough to make it worth their while.

So, we're left with the advice that you ended up giving yourself. The BEST approach is to simply do it yourself. YOU are probably the smartest person you can find, the most talented, the most capable, and the most willing... you are the one. You are the one who will do the job... and do it right.

Oh, it may take you longer than that high-dollar expert could have done. But, the job can be done right, if you do a bit of prep, research, a bit of reading and a LOT of editing.

Go out there and hire the best guy or gal for the job... YOU !

Have fun doing it, and know that you've in fact actually hired the right person for the job.

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zapseo 16 years ago

It's not the writing, it's the research, that takes time.

And information transfer.

Quite a few clients have "nickel and dimed" my time because I have had to ask, repeatedly, for the items I needed to do the best job for them. A recent client wanted to work on an extraordinarily tight schedule. Then wouldn't respond to my emails for days at a time.

Get the research right, and the copy isn't nearly as important.

One bit of the research can throw a completely different angle on the copy. Just ask Carlton when he interviewed the guy and finally came up with the "one legged golfer" angle.

People who can't afford to pay for copy are probably running an under-funded business anyway. They haven't had the time/money/energy to do an adequate job of market research and so the marketing will be half-assed. Copy is the cherry on the ice cream sundae of marketing, with the ice cream being the market research.

And combining copy along with the constraints of the web (the graphic design, etc) can be especially painful -- especially when the graphics have already been done.

Live JoyFully!

Judy

NextDay Copy
Marketer's Geek
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Bigsofty

16 years ago

$99? Nearly impossible unless the writer lives in a location where cost of living is very low

I live in the jungles of Borneo and even I can't charge that little.

You may find my copy hits the spot for someone looking for an affordable copywriter...

www.copywriter-ac.com

*Alan does a rare spot of self-promotion on the Warrior forum*

B.

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nontemplates 16 years ago

Bigsofty,

I've never done an endorsement of any Copywriter on this forum but I will say of all the sales pages that I have read (that advertise here as Copywriters) yours was only one of two that I was impressed with and the only one that held me from top to bottom of the page.
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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

In fairness Mark, this guy uses a LOT of capital letters where he shouldn't... which is another reason that I question the validity of his criticism.

I don't think he's rubbishing you... I think you're being paranoid.

Could be wrong, though.

I also don't remember him attacking me. Disagreeing with me, perhaps... and even then I think it was more a communication error than anything.

Let's all keep in mind that 95% of your message is lost when you speak in text only.

That's why good copywriters charge what we do... we have to be VERY careful about the way we say things in order to get the desired results.

-Dan

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting 16 years ago

Good points of which I'm very well aware Daniel, but thanks for pointing this out.

For the record, no I'm not paranoid, what I am tired of seeing is this poster thinking that he knows best all the time, rubbishing other much more experienced copywriters opinions - when he goes by no personal name or copywriting website.

Also directly mentioning, as he has done on another thread, bringing my recent WSO's into disrepute.

There is a difference between disagreeing with points made and trying one's best to sully the reputation of other copywriters directly.

When one enjoy's helping out other posters as much as possible, receiving personal thanks often, seeing this kind of behaviour is just insulting.

Wishing you a great day Daniel - I always enjoy reading your posts and thought provoking comments, which help us all to improve our game.

Best wishes.

Mark
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nontemplates 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

In fairness Mark, this guy uses a LOT of capital letters where he shouldn't... which is another reason that I question the validity of his criticism.

Come on Daniel. I have no problems with you but trying to invalidate an entire criticism (as you call it. I named no names except positively) based on a bad habit of capital letters when I type (C in particular -lol - don't know where I started picking that up). I've been lying down recently while I type. Helps the back so I suspect theres even more you can nitpick at. I'm not selling my writing or typing skills on this forum (amazingly stated as the reason I shouldn't post). I thought it was causal conversations in a forum but if its for a grade I guess I can shape up

I just want to hear a rational basis why looking at a person's sales page should not be considered to have any bearing on their ability to write a sales page.

Now when I say they should be hired I was in no way implying that anyone should drop everything and do no more due diligence but its a proof of ability or lack of ability. A good one and based on that you should continue to find out more. A bad one? Stop and go to the next.
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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

nontemplates (can you sign your name so I can call you a real name? LOL),

Your logic explains EXACTLY why a cheap copywriter won't be any good. If they can't sell themselves (and make decent money) how can they sell YOUR product?

If I wanted to hire a copywriter, I'd do some research, see if I liked someone's style... then email them and ask them to give me SPECIFIC examples of where they've done killer work. Most copywriters won't be able to tell you everything, of course, for confidentiality reasons... but you can usually get a good idea of their skillset.

Then email copywriters you KNOW are good. Get some samples, and PM Vin Montello, Mike Humphreys, Ray Edwards, Scott, whoever... guys you KNOW are good. They might not have the time to help you but if you get lucky one of them will.

Heck, if you email them and explain your situation they might be able to RECOMMEND a writer. I know Vin passes off work all the time from people who want a copywriter but don't have his (admittedly hefty) fee handy... so he recommends someone he knows will do a good job in that price range. Most copywriters do a similar thing.

Knowing what I know now... that's what I'd do.

But, of course, if you don't have $3000+... forget about hiring a copywriter. Either go through the agony of doing it yourself and watch as it won't convert (it's what I did, and how I learned to write copy), or (what I SHOULD have done) market affiliate offers until you have the cash to burn.

-Dan

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

nontemplates (can you sign your name so I can call you a real name? LOL)

Sorry I see you already responded before my last post. The names Mike.

Your logic explains EXACTLY why a cheap copywriter won't be any good. If they can't sell themselves (and make decent money) how can they sell YOUR product?

Um Daniel I wasn't referring to necessarily cheap copywriters. Despite all kinds of nonsense claims that I am going after any copywriters (yeah I responded to an attack Mark made. he had it coming too. If you question people's right to post you should be prepared to have people question yours) I'm not getting into any names.

[

But, of course, if you don't have $3000+... forget about hiring a copywriter.

Really? So you are throwing any copywriter anywhere in the world under the bus that doesn't work for that? I got another HUGE ethical problem with that Daniel and I'll seperate that into another post later.

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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Mike (thanks for that BTW),

In the copywriting game, anyone under about $5 000 is "cheap". There are definitely good copywriters for that price... I like to consider myself one of them, along with others who I won't name in case they don't want their rates public knowledge.

Most of the copywriters I mentioned in my post are mid-to-high four figures, as far as I know... so while not cheap, they're definitely not expensive.

I assumed (probably mistakenly, upon re-reading) that you were saying those guys were "big names" and therefore too expensive.

Now, in regards to your "bus" comment...

Many copywriters have, at one time, worked for peanuts. A lot of them are quite good. Heck, even Bruce Wedding wrote his first letter for a mere $350.

I did my first FOUR letters for just $97.

Scott used to do cheap-ass letters too.

But when I say that you need at least $3 000... well, I'm generalizing, but it's an apt generalization. The first four letters I wrote I earned less than minimum wage. Good cheap copywriters don't stay cheap for long...

...after all, why would you settle for $500 when you can add an extra zero to that and still have more work than you can handle?

There are professions in which skill levels do not directly translate to monetary gain (music and art comes to mind).

Copywriting is not one of those skills. Copywriting is about selling and making money... Vin is better at it than I am and so he charges more.

So am I throwing EVERY copywriter who works for less than $3 000 "under the bus"? No. That would be hypocritical and unfair.

But I AM saying if you want to go that route... EXPECT copy that doesn't convert... because your chances of getting a good writer for cheaper than that are very, very, VERY slim.

If you want to play the lottery with your business, that's your prerogative. You might even hit the jackpot... as I assume the people who got in on Scott's $500 WSO (some time ago now) did.

But it's pretty rare.

For what it's worth, Mike, I don't think you're going after any copywriters in particular. To be perfectly honest I think you're making comments on things that may be a little beyond your understanding... but I've been guilty of that in the past as well, so it's not as though I think you're a bad person or anything.

I DO, however, think there's a lot of money to be made listening to guys who are better at something than you. And although I could be wrong, I don't think your forte is copywriting.

-Dan

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Sorry I see you already responded before my last post. The names Mike.

Um Daniel I wasn't referring to necessarily cheap copywriters. Despite all kinds of nonsense claims that I am going after any copywriters (yeah I responded to an attack Mark made. he had it coming too. If you question people's right to post you should be prepared to have people question yours) I'm not getting into any names.

Really? So you are throwing any copywriter anywhere in the world under the bus that doesn't work for that? I got another HUGE ethical problem with that Daniel and I'll seperate that into another post later.

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

So am I throwing EVERY copywriter who works for less than $3 000 "under the bus"? No. That would be hypocritical and unfair.

Daniel you stated point blank that if someone didn't have $3.000 they should forget about it

But, of course, if you don't have $3000+... forget about hiring a copywriter

But of course is not the language of some broad generality but of an obvious (to the writer) fact. You are either sloppy with your language construct or dodging again. You critique people's writing and then CLEARLY when caught with the implications try to slide out it.

edit - if you consider this sharp I can understand but I've found your writing critiques more than a little condescending to ignore when you try and backtrack on your own poor use of language. Happens some time to us all. - end edit

How about this.? Let a copywriter set their own prices without trying to set some artificailly imposed limit as to where a good copy writer price point begins and then heres a revolutionary thought - judge the copywriter by actual work that he has done without all that....... and yeah that still includes his own site because simple logic is not dispelled by an appeal to authority.

Argument from authority - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are very unlikely to get screwed by an expensive copywriter

Why? because scam artists don't go for the bigger scores only in copywriting? Remember to this point you have not stated a single way for anyone to verify a thing a copywriter claims. You've merely directed the client to ask the copywriter what they claim to have done. I'm not implying anyone here would ripoff a client but a blanket statement like that is once again ridiculous.

And although I could be wrong, I don't think your forte is copywriting.

-Dan

Well of course you don't because even though the copy thats on a copywriters site should not be used as a criteria for judging copywriting skills a person who you've seen no copy work from can be judged by their typing on a forum while lying down. Clearly if someone casually posts on a forum and makes typing erors they would do so even in their writing jobs that they proof (I wonder why editors are ever hired since professional writers never make any mistakes) but wait.... You've made mistakes in your posts...... Sorry That makes about as much sense as anything you've written and once again I fail to see where I am selling any copywriting services.

I think we should stop.

In the last five posts you have yet to answer why a copy writer should not have good convincing copy on their site, claimed that if you pay a high enough price to a copywriter it guarantees that you will not get ripped off and claimed that anyone who charges Under $3,000 must be skipped in favor of no writer at all. Every time caught with the illogical nature of these positions you've merely appealed to authority or to the inherent unsophisticated nature of anyone that sees the lack of logic in those positions.

An old story retold for the 21st century - The Emperor's New Clothes.

I respect you and your work but your position in this thread are not logically defensible. People should choose their copywriting services based on three things

1. Copy actually written and verifiable which first includes their own site.
2. Past work that can be verified independently (not merely the assertion of the copywriter)
3. The appreciation and undertanding the writer shows for the work being offered.

This is plain common sense and trying to argue some knowledge that supercede the rational common sense approach based on alleged authority is patent nonsense and if insisted on is nothing more than a sales ploy.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

16 years ago

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by WordPro

How many more times do you need to have this point hammered through your thick skull?

Post reported for being argumentative, harrassing and downright rude.

I'm sure you will be credible with hammering my thick skull. Real professional writing there and not the slightest bit rude.

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Copywriting is an art. It is not susceptible to common sense.

.

Cdarklock look at the thread title . I am not talking about the process of writing. I am talking about the process of finding and making a determination about a good copywriter.

Please tell me how a person is to find a Copywriter without using common sense? For someone in this thread who is looking (my goodness its the thread subject) why in God's green planet can't a prospective client use a copywriters website designed to sell his services as part of the indication of his ability?

Never mind. I've asked several times and got no rational answer because there is none.

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by nontemplates

I am talking about the process of finding and making a determination about a good copywriter.

And you cannot use common sense to find and make a determination about a good artist.

Every talent agent on the planet has been trying for centuries. You can't do it. It's simply not possible. Fantastic artists languish in poverty every day while they construct masterpieces, and just a few miles away pathetic hacks are collecting millions for churning out crap.

This is not because the world is fundamentally unfair, or there is some sort of global conspiracy, or the Illuminati are fighting the Mormons over ownership of Atlantis. It is because art is not susceptible to reason.

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And you cannot use common sense to find and make a determination about a good artist.

New angle so I will answer it. Let me ask

DO you expect to see a piece of art you deem dreadful and conclude other people are going to like it based on the artist telling you its good? Thats the equivalence to this conversation. Anyway

A) if I answer (as I am so apparently I don't care - lol) I will hear I'm being argumentive or disrespectful from your friend because thats always the case if I answer.

B) We have been in multiple threads where common sense basic rules and principles have been spelt out in copywriting. Comparing it to art is a complete miss. Creating a deep mystery around copywriting is however good for sales I admit (and no I am not implying it doesn't take skill or is easy just that using that is a dodge). Who doesn't want to come across as a magician?

C) If copywriting were anywhere near as subjective as art you would expect greater diversity in copywriting than headline, tell the story, bullets etc. Theres much more structure in copywriting that is common sense and if it were not so there wouldn't be courses that layout the principles to become a good copywriter. There is absolutely no given structure in art. You can draw in the lines outside, use paint, plastic anything. Your analogy again does not work.

D) The tangible result of copywriting is a buyer reaching for their wallet ( credit card or keyboard to go to Paypal) not a smile on your face (say with art). Its a tangible quantitative end result. If I don't reach for my cash you havent done your job. If I'm hiring a copywriter and you haven't convinced me with your sales page - where that skill is supposed to be shown - then I am completely within reason to move on.

This again is all just common sense and it very much does apply to hiring a copywriter. You better have one great reputation with a verifiable unconfidential list of successes to claim that although I am the one with the money you get to decide I am too stupid, unsophisticated or wet behind the ears in recognizing the skills needed to sell my product and I should ignore the lack of your ability to convince me of your skills on your sales page. Frankly if thats the case then that should be either on your sales page or implied and then I would find it convincing.

Common sense is therefore my answer and again unless there is a new angle or question I'm done.

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CDarklock

16 years ago

Originally Posted by nontemplates

DO you expect to see a piece of art you deem dreadful and conclude other people are going to like it based on the artist telling you its good? Thats the equivalence to this conversation.

Not really. See, I know a little something about art, whereas the copywriting client doesn't know copywriting from a hole in the ground. He can't tell whether copy is good or bad. He only knows whether he personally likes the copy or not - whether it would make him reach for his wallet.

And if he's actually in the target market, that might mean something. But if he's not, it means squat.

We have been in multiple threads where common sense basic rules and principles have been spelt out in copywriting. Comparing it to art is a complete miss.

There are common sense basic rules in art, too, such as the interlacing of the joint to the advancing member. Knowing what the advancing member is, on the other hand, and why - is not common sense at all.

If copywriting were anywhere near as subjective as art you would expect greater diversity in copywriting than headline, tell the story, bullets etc.

There is. Bigsofty's sales page has no bullets anywhere on it, and you think it's one of the best you've ever seen.

The tangible result of copywriting is a buyer reaching for their wallet

No, the tangible result of copywriting is a satisfied customer.

A large part of copywriting that you and almost every other would-be copywriter choose to flat-out ignore is managing expectations. It doesn't stop when you get the money. It is the copywriting that tells the customer whether you just ripped him off when he sees the product.

But you think what matters is what the customer does at your web site. That's common sense; once he's gone, it's not your problem, right?

Art leaves you a different person. It's not what you think when you look at the piece that matters. It's what you think when you walk away.

You just don't seem to get it.

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

But you think what matters is what the customer does at your web site. That's common sense; once he's gone, it's not your problem, right?

Art leaves you a different person. It's not what you think when you look at the piece that matters. It's what you think when you walk away.

You just don't seem to get it.

New omniscient claim So i will respond

In classic logic classes we call this circular reasoning.

Please don't get into that game that you are in my head to tell me what I think and then use circular reasoning to come to a conclusion you merely assumed your way into. The fact that I state that the tangible result of copywriting is a sale does not imply that I do not think that the sale should not be from a genuinely satisfied customer. Your conclusions do not necessarily follow. The really funny thing is Daniel blasted me for suggesting that relationship selling (that ensures the customer doesn't have buyers remorse - ie is a satisfied customer) is part of the copy writer's concern and here you are claiming that people who don't see that a satisfied customer is the tangible result of copywriting are neophytes and don't get it. I mean in veiled words he's threatened to have me banned because I proposed exactly what you just said and some other common sense observations (yeah I am betting the story will change now that you are contradicting each other. I can bank on this or you aren't really contradicting each other by some logic gymnastics ).

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post1068126

See I do think you are right about having a satisfied customer. Your wrong. Is Daniel now the neophyte? because acording to your last post - he just doesn't get it.

Thanks
2 replies

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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Mike,

I´ve never made ¨veiled threats¨ to have you banned. I don´t particularly respect you or your knowledge... but the feeling seems to be mutual.

That´s fine. I can live with that.

For the last few posts I was really writing for people who may be reading, not you specifically... one of the interesting things about a public forum as opposed to a private discussion.

But at this point we seem to be re-hashing the same points over and over... and don´t seem to be making any progress in our communications... so I am going to let the matter drop.

People can read the posts and make their own conclusions.

But please don´t say I threatened to have you banned.

-Dan

P.S. Regarding the whole ¨what is the copy´s job¨ thing... here´s the way I think of it.

Copy makes the sale. A copywriter writes you the best converting letter he can based on the product you give him.

If your product is good... that will create a satisfied customer.

So I don´t really agree with Caliban at this particular juncture.

Just to clarify.

Originally Posted by nontemplates

New omniscient claim So i will respond

In classic logic clases we call this circular reasoning.

Please don't get into that game that you are in my head to tell me what I think and then use circular reasoning to come to a conclusion you merely assumed your way into. The fact that I state that the tangible result of copywriting is a sale does not imply that I do not think that the sale should not be from a genuinely satisfied customer. Your conclusions do not necessarily follow The really funny thing is Daniel blasted me for suggesting that relationship selling that ensures the customer doesn't have buyers remorse (ie is a satisfied customer) is part of the copy writing concerns and here you are claiming that people who don't see that a satisfied customer is the tangible result of copywriting allegedly marks me as a neophyte. I mean in veiled words he's threatened to have me banned because I proposed exactly what you just said and some other common sense observations (yeah I am betting the story will change now that you are contradicting each other. I can bank on this or you aren't really contradicting each other by some logic gymnastics ).

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post1068126

See I do think you are right about having a satisfied customer. Your wrong. Is Daniel now the neophyte? because acording to your last post - he just doesn't get it.

Thanks

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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Please don't get into that game

Okay!

You can go play with yourself.
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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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- nontemplates 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Okay!
  
  You can go play with yourself.
  
  I pass on answering in kind. Stop baiting and let the thread get back on track
  
  Thanks
  
  1 reply
  
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  MarkAndrews IMCopywriting 16 years ago
  
  I, for my part also apologise for taking this thread off topic, I've allowed the above poster to needle me way too much.
  
  I've now placed him on complete Ignore so I don't have to read or see any more of his comments.
  
  I'm absolutely sick and tired of all of this utter stupidity.
  
  For what it's worth, I absolutely love helping other people to the best of my ability. It's really great to be a part of this forum, sharing in what is for the most part - excellent banter and more importantly, learning from all of the other copywriters here.
  
  Hopefully we can all get this back on track now.
  
  Once again I'm sorry for allowing him to get to me, it won't happen again.
  
  I'm all for positivity, not negativity and arguing just for the sake of it.
  
  Best regards to you all.
  
  Mark
  
  Thanks
  
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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by nontemplates

This is plain common sense

Copywriting is an art. It is not susceptible to common sense.

Imagine that you own a store. You are going to put a statue outside that store. Should it be Michelangelo's David, or a wooden Indian?

Well, which one will make more people come into the store?

There is no "common sense" rule that explains which one you should use. It's an artistic decision. You can't make it with logic.
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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

nontemplates,

It's not just the capital letters... your writing on this forum isn't good. Now, granted, some people don't feel that a forum warrants care and attention... but when I think about great writers, I think of guys like C Darklock and Paul Myers... who always write amazing posts.

Granted, there are amazing COPYWRITERS like Vin who don't write posts with the same finesse and elegance... but they're always clear and easy to understand.

Now, aside from that, you have some incorrect assumptions about copywriting that you put across as fact... intentionally or not. I good rule of thumb is to try and clarify your position by stating "In my experience" or "I am of the opinion that"... just to keep everything square and to ensure that we don't confuse newbies with our OPINIONS.

Sound fair?

Now, to address your point...

I can understand why you may think the way you do (a copywriter's writing has to grab you)... but it ain't necessarily so.

A good copywriter can be OBJECTIVE about the stuff he sees... and let me tell you, I've seen some brilliant copy that didn't grab me, even when I was the target market.

Didn't stop it from converting like crazy, though.

My point is that most people can't TELL whether copy is good or bad... which is why the $97 sales letters sell like crazy. They're terrible, but the person buying them (and the person writing them) doesn't know that.

-Dan

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nontemplates

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

nontemplates,

It's not just the capital letters... your writing on this forum isn't good. Now, granted, some people don't feel that a forum warrants care and attention... but when I think about great writers, I think of guys like C Darklock and Paul Myers... who always write amazing posts

Daniel. Sorry now you're just dodging. I'm not here to live up to your criteria of amazing posts. Again I'm not selling anything. When and if I do my writing will be perused more closely. I am here to converse, bounce ideas and learn about IM. I have no doubts about my writing abilities. Frankly I reduce my vocabulary when I am here but in fairness I am one of the world's worst typists

Anyway since I have come here people have told me the exact opposite on some posts and whether you choose to believe or not I work in a professional setting with professors that have told me the same. So get over the typing lesson and stop dodging. If it were not so Mark would not have considered me brilliant enough to weave his domain name into my post. His paranoia serves as the answer to your obvious attempt at deflection. Back to the point

What about the argument is illogical? Why should a copywriter not have good copy on his website? Does a good chef serve a lousy meal at his restaurant to his reviewer? Does a painter show a house with streaking paint as his sales tool? The position is flat out ridiculous and nonsensical and hiding behind copywriting being so difficult you can't judge it based on a sales page is just a dodge and weave. Of course you can't exclusively judge it on that. I clarified that long ago but to claim as you did that it doesn't have its importance is pure silliness.

Now if you still do not get it. Don't blame my inability to write on your inability to read and comprehend. I've made it crystal clear and you have yet to answer in anyway that addresses the FUNDAMENTAL logical flaw in your reasoning.

I can understand why you may think the way you do (a copywriter's writing has to grab you)... but it ain't necessarily so.

A good copywriter can be OBJECTIVE about the stuff he sees... and let me tell you, I've seen some brilliant copy that didn't grab me, even when I was the target market.

Didn't stop it from converting like crazy, though.

Well you said you wish me to be fair and I agree so reciprocate. You arer trying shift to what I wrote. I didn't say a darn thing about grabbing me. Is the objective of a sales page to convert the target? If it doesn't convert me then why should I bother? Again if I see poor skills why should I bother? Your one answer has been to ask the copywriter again to sell you by giving you his own stats on his sucess hid by confidentially clauses from any real proof to back it up. Thats a nice setup for a potential con game. What you think people have unlimited time? There are scores if not hundreds of good copywriters. Live in the real world. If a copywriter can't convince me he has the goods in his sales copy selling himself I am going to and should move on to the next. Arguing this common sense reality is tedious and ridiculous and trying to claim otherwise based ons some superior knowledge is a simple transparent appeal to authority which is one of the most common logical fallacies noted in any good book on logic - my favorite being Purtill.

My point is that most people can't TELL whether copy is good or bad... which is why the $97 sales letters sell like crazy. They're terrible, but the person buying them (and the person writing them) doesn't know that.

-Dan

Nope they are buying them because you (not a peronal you) sell them a dream in some copy for $29.95 that tells them they can make $15,000 in a month or $100,000 a year and then later say - "oh oops sorry you will need minimum $3000 to write a palatable sales copy that can do that." They don't have it (and no one told them upfront) so they are left with no choice and then they meet your disdain. So heres what I was going to say is the ethical problem with your claim that anyone who can't pay $3000 shouldn't hire any copywriter.

ANd I know some copywriters are going to scream like crazy cause the truth hurts

Excuse yourself from writing any copy anywhere that has offers like some of those in the WSO area where the poor soul buying what is being sold is told that they too can reproduce the sellers success at making $5000 in a week, or a month or $20,000 in three months or $100,000 in a year or anything similar. Turn down the work unless you put a disclaimer where appropriate. because if the guy or girl used your $3000+ service to get that result you'd be selling a complete lie.

Thanks
1 reply

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

16 years ago

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Incidentally a good rule of thumb when critiquing people's arguments on the basis of their typing is to not exhibit the same flaws. I find this horribly incoherent from someone selling their services as a writer

What is an "I good rule of thumb"? Were you suddenly waxing Roman numerical? or were you claiming to be a good rule of thumb?

Don't complain. You set yourself up for that.

As I've noted before, you're just too darn argumentative Mike.

You argue every single point, which is what gets other people's backs up.

You rubbish every opinion given to you, by near every copywriter on this forum, multiquoting their comments, taking things out of context, blowing things up out of all proportion.

I've pointed things out to you, Daniel has pointed things out to you, Bill Jeffels the same, Paul (Onslaught) - and yet you still disagree with everyone, telling them in no uncertain terms that they are wrong.

All the while, your spelling and sentence structure is atrocious by any stretch of the imagination and some of your advice can be damaging to other Warriors, looking for quality advice about this subject.

The problem with you is that you just will not be told, you keep on believing that you are right.

It is this unwillingness to learn, this unwillingness to show any humility at all, constantly bitching at other individuals comments that is getting other Warrior's backs up.

If one can proffer you with some advice, since by your own admittance you are 'so very intelligent', mixing with professor's and all that :rolleyes:, as if that means dick, at least give other real copywriters the respect to get on with what they do best - copywriting.

Coming on here and hardly able at times to even string a sentence together with any cohesiveness, gives your case very little credence at all.

Why don't you just try and learn a bit more about the copywriting craft first, before launching on some tirade about copywriters and copywriting in general? This approach I think could bode well for your future.

It's all about attitude matey, as several have already pointed out to you before.

Yours needs a distinct kick up the ass, no offence.

Sort it.

Mark

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nontemplates 16 years ago

Incidentally a good rule of thumb when critiquing people's arguments on the basis of their typing is to not exhibit the same flaws. I find this horribly incoherent from someone selling their services as a writer

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I good rule of thumb is to try and clarify your position by

What is an "I good rule of thumb"? Were you suddenly waxing Roman numerical? or were you claiming to be a good rule of thumb? Don't complain. You set yourself up for that.
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nontemplates

16 years ago

I'm sure that it is no accident at all, that in the above highlighted words, you have managed yet again to draw attention to my website, with the capitalization of my business name, putting a capital 'C' on the word copywriting, immediately after your inclusion of the two letters 'IM'.

Woah! I skipped over your rant and just saw this. You are WAAAAAY off base. You've been reading too much on NLP. Lets clear the air. I was not drawing attention to your website. As Daniel has stated I have been capitalizing C needlessly for awhile just one of those slips and I don't get why in the world IM which is an abbreviation would target your site because I don't even remember your URL until you brought it up.

Props to you mark. You obviously thought although - stating otherwise on your other attack posts - that I am an incredibly bright person. Thanks for the vote of confidence but no definitely no connection there. I actually saw something you wrote the other day and thought it was't half bad and thats not a backhanded slap.

Thanks
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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by nontemplates

Lets clear the air.

Yes, let's.

You have a pattern of pushing Mark's buttons, then claiming innocence and blaming it all on him.

How many times do you think people are going to believe you?

Here's a hint: I've never believed you.
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"The Golden Town is the Golden Town no longer. They have sold their pillars for brass and their temples for money, they have made coins out of their golden doors. It is become a dark town full of trouble, there is no ease in its streets, beauty has left it and the old songs are gone." - Lord Dunsany, The Messengers
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- nontemplates 16 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by CDarklock
  
  Yes, let's.
  
  You have a pattern of pushing Mark's buttons, then claiming innocence and blaming it all on him.
  
  Are you guys insane???? Why by saying that a copywriter should have good copy on his site am I pushing your buttons?? Where did I call any copywriter out or name names? This is silly . I state that a copywriter should have good copy on his site. Mark then claims I subliminally linked IM and copywriting to implicate him. PURE and ABSOLUTE insanity. It wasn't even a discussion with him and the person I was talking to I complimented them on their copy
  
  LOL!
  
  Theres only one rational explanation. Somebody doesn't like claiming that good copy should be on a copywriter sales page because somebody doesn't think their copy is good.
  
  Tired of it. I'm out . I think anyone reading objectively can draw their own conclusions.
  
  Thanks
  
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Daniel Scott

16 years ago

Mike,

First of all... I don't ever work for people if I have doubts about their integrity or the quality of their product.

I've been lucky so far.

I'm not "dodging" anything... I'm telling you my honest opinion.

I apologize if I have misunderstood you... it's a forum, these things happen.

My point is that copy not grabbing you doesn't mean it's bad. In fact it could be damn good, as I've experienced myself... and you can be in the target market... and still not be moved, per se.

It can still be killer copy though. Perhaps appealing to a slightly different type of person than you are, or something like not... not resonating with you... but that's why good copy converts at maybe 3% (depending on multiple factors of course) instead of 93%.

My point is that 99%+ of people can't tell the difference between a $97 sales letter and a good one.. and those are PRECISELY the people who need to have copy written for them. It's a catch 22 situation... but unless you know a lot about copywriting you can easily screw yourself over.

Another point to consider... when you sell $97 sales letters it's easy to con people. $5 000? Not so much... your reputation SERIOUSLY comes into play there. How good a rep do you think a bad copywriter has?

I've got two words for you that will give you an idea of what reputation means to a copywriter: Nicholas Cole.

Look it up.

You are very unlikely to get screwed by an expensive copywriter. I know Vin won't take a project he doesn't think has a chance. Mike Humphreys, by his own admission, is the same, and I work the same way.

Pretty much every professional copywriter I know (that charges a fair amount) is nothing but ethical and professional... because you can't survive in this game being anything but.

-Dan

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nontemplates

16 years ago

The threat is off topic to discuss in this thread Daniel and like you said we hardly respect each other at this point (although I respect you as a forum member even if you don't) and should withdraw from this thread as its just derailing it further. If you want to discuss the threat do so in the thread you made it in.

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Bigsofty

16 years ago

Well that's certainly been a funsome exchange but we're all out of popcorn now, so how's about everybody smooch and make pinky pledges to be nice? Preferably silently, without posting

As a sticky thread this was a valuable resource, now somewhat blighted with an entire page of bickering. Yuk.

I have my own opinion on some of the things said, but if I can resist the temptation then I'm sure you guys can

Now, back to the actual topic... me! But no, seriously...

I am probably a good example for this, so not pimping too much, I hope. My rate, for a full salesletter, with a couple or three weeks of research and everything done very professionally, thankyouverymuch, is $770.

The site explains it but here's why:

1. Very cheap cost of living here
2. I'm fussy, prefering to choose what I'll do and when, rather than licking the crack of a high-paying client. Bottom line, if someone were paying me $5,000 I'd feel a level of obligation to them that I'm just not comfortable with.

No-one, and I don't care who they are, can guarantee their copy. If I'm not 100% certain of improving the client's results, or, if a new product, that it's a seller, I won't take it on. Fact remains, no-one can guarantee any particular level.

I can only guarantee an improvement. I can't guarantee 5% or whatever. Nobody can.

That I could squeeze clients for five grand is not the issue. For me to be completely comfortable I need to know my fee is great value, easily worth more than the client paid. Ideally a lot more. That way everyone is happy.

I spent years in a high-stress career and like most people here have struggled in the past to figure out what works best online. Today I've reached a happy, zen-like existence, quite literally waking up each day on a beautiful tropical island, where I don't have to do a damn thing I don't want to. My total expenses for a month, everything, including mortgage, comes to around $500, max. That includes eating out a lot at nice places.

Fun fact - I have other businesses that bring in some cash, my wife has a full-time career - I could stop copywriting tomorrow and cope fine.

I'm not gonna screw with that zenniness for the sake of some stranger's cash. $770 gets me motivated, it gets my best efforts and dedication - within limits. Pee me off, push me, be a pain in my (perky) posterior and I'll GLADLY say goodbye to the seven hundred bux. Life's too short.

It took me a lifetime to get where I am today. I wouldn't swap my life with anybody. If I charged more then sure, I could have a bigger house, a bigger car, and more expenses. So what?

WIIFM?

Geddit?

My situation is unusual, I know. Fact is, not everyone who can charge more, necessarily should do, or wants to.

Pricing works both ways. You can buy $770 of my time and dedication; and it's damn good value. The rest aint for sale.

I'll shut up now. Carry on...

B.

(www.copywriter-ac.com)

PS: This was a moment of pure self-indulgence, nearly 100% about ME! Damn that felt good. Oh well, back to work. About you..?

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CDarklock 16 years ago

Originally Posted by Bigsofty

As a sticky thread this was a valuable resource, now somewhat blighted with an entire page of bickering. Yuk.

Yeah, and I sort of have to take some of the blame on that. I apologise for getting in the middle of everything; it was inconsiderate of me.
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Jboxer

Banned 16 years ago

[DELETED]

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Frank Ayres

16 years ago

Originally Posted by Jboxer

I have never heard of a $97 sales letter but I have heard of them costing up to $10,000 for a good one. You get what you pay for. I would take a look at Joe Vitale's site at MrFire.com . Study how he writes, he offers you one of his most successful letters for free. I would take that letter and write it out by hand, over and over until you understand the style of writing that sells. Get a copy of copywriters guild, it's hard to come by but if you get on Mike Dillards list, he releases it once in a while. Learn how to write copy and then hire someone to put it onto your website. Hope this helps.

There have been people dong WSOs on $97 sales letters.
One person even had a membership site where you got unlimited sales letters for $97 per month

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Hesster 16 years ago

Originally Posted by SpudDS

One person even had a membership site where you got unlimited sales letters for $97 per month

Yeah, and that went about as well as you would expect.

Seriously, could anyone else see that train wreck coming before the train even left the station?
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Franck Silvestre

16 years ago

Hmm,

I don't really consider myself a copywriter, but it's not difficult to write a sales letter that converts when you know your market.

As for getting a copywriter for $97, maybe if he is JUST getting started...

Saying that, you don't need to be a copywriter to make thousands of dollars from your own sales letters. I write almost everything myself, and I make a lot of sales.

Franck
the Body Guard marketer

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Peter Clarke

16 years ago

If you want to cut the cost of copy writing brush up you own skills. Even if you can't achieve the cutting edge level needed to capture google effectively, by being able to give your copy writer a well worked draft you should be able to haggle the price for them to do the final edit.

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skyparc 16 years ago

Very much like any business, all comes down to, you get what you pay for

skyparc
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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

Great advice...

...unless you're in a market that has ANY decent competition.

Look... Eben's selling stuff. He's telling you what people want to hear... that with the right formula, anyone can write a killer letter.

One of his markets (dating) - that approach would never work. There's no USP. There's no differentiation. There's no credibility. There's no proof.

There's no reason to pick your cookie-cutter copy over the far superior-looking offers other people are throwing out there.

Let's be realistic...

If writing copy that made a lot of money was that easy, everyone would do it.

Companies wouldn't be paying guys like Bencivenga and Makepeace $50k + royalties.

Don't get me wrong... as formulas go, it's not terrible. And I appreciate that you're trying to help.

But come on dude... thinking you can avoid hiring a pro just because you heard Eben say something at a seminar? You're either talented beyond the capabilities of most people...

...or you're dreaming.

Worse... you're throwing your unsubstantiated opinion down as fact.

I work in the industry. I've written killer letters that have pulled in a lot of dough. And I'll tell you right now your formula is FAR from complete.

Real copywriters don't usually rely on formulas... at least not strongly. Sure, there are things that kind of pop up when they do (the price justification is never at the start, for example). But there is a LOT of creativity that goes into a good letter, and following a formula inhibits that.

In short... bad advice. Kudos for trying to help - seriously -but next time don't just blindly regurgitate what some "guru" said as fact, because you're doing a lot of damage.

-Daniel

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jtunkelo

14 years ago

It really isn't much different from hiring a lawyer.

If you start up a technology company that's going to require knowledge of IP law so you can file patents, you need to hire a specialized IP lawyer. Not some hack who just passed the bar. You know that going in, and you secure some funds from VC, loans, grants, what have you.

Good copywriting is part of the cost of being in the information business. Be prepared. Or be prepared to chase that buck for quite some time.

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darkhazza

14 years ago

The idea that a salesletter could ever be $97 is shocking. When someone spends a week (or more) writing headlines over and over to get the perfect one, that's a lot of billable hours. Even though it looks like barely anything has been done. Not only that but sales letters always seem to be very very long.

If there are copywriters who will charge $97, you could potentially buy 10 versions from 10 different copywriters and split test them all yourself. If luck is blowing in your direction it could work out cheaper.

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davemiz

14 years ago

its like anything you just gotta throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see what sticks.

be prepared to "waste" some money till you find a good one.

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