yes i am looking for the same issue.
but $97 for a sales letter is quite much isn't it?

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It is possible to get a sales letter writer for $97, and although you might find a hidden gem - most won't be spectacular at that price. In fact, many people I've seen haven't been able to find someone who can write in clear English, let alone persuasively, for that amount.

After seeing plenty of warriors come in here, ask the same question, and post their disappointment - my best advice to you, if you only have $97 to spend, is to either A) buy a couple of books on copywriting and learn it yourself or B) write a salesletter modeled after a successful letter in your niche, and then have a reputable copywriter from the WSO forum critique it (I know Judy (zapseo) does this from time to time, her last offer was I think $97 - right within your budget - and she is amazing at what she does...)

So to answer your question, yes and no... Yes, you can get a copywriter for $97 - they will either critique what you've written, or write you something you probably can't use. I know what I'd spend my money on!

- Cherilyn

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For between $400-$600 you might be able to find someone to rewrite your copy, or maybe even an up and comer to write it for you. As with anything else, do your due diligence. Even the best of us start somewhere, and a lot of copywriters who could turn into superstars might be charging in that range for a rewrite right now.

TGK-

I won't lie to you-

The odds of you finding someone
to do a passable job at that price
are astronomical.

But if that's your budget, that's your
budget.

Just create a post telling everyone what
you want and how much you want to
spend.

A surprising amount of cheap writers
are lurkers here, so you'll most likely
get some takers.

Good luck

-David Raybould

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Hi Senve,

I think you're missing the point
a little here.

Nobody is advising anyone to
raise the prices on anything.

A good copywriter costs money.
Thousands of dollars. The client
who hires the writer usually makes
many times his investment back.

That's just how it is.

And sure, you may want to find
a good writer for between $100
and $400... you may even honestly
believe it's possible.

But that doesn't mean it will happen.

Sure, it's possible, but statistically,
it's pretty unlikely.

When budgeting for a writer, it
just depends how much money
you want to make, or how high
you want your conversion figures.

If you're happy with zero or next
to zero conversion, then I'm sure
you can find just the right writer
for you at that price.

Senve, you say you want to keep
your costs down until you see results...

If you're honestly expecting good
results from hiring a copywriter
that cheap, this project is
probably going to be quite a
wake up call for you.

Sorry.

Good luck with it though, and
I honestly do hope you find a
killer writer to give you a real
bargain.

-David Raybould

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Hey Senve-

Typically, successful marketers
who are charging lower prices for
their products ($40 eg) will have
backend products ready to pitch
to everyone who buys.

Say you have a $97 backend offer
that converts at 30 to 50%...

Suddenly your 100 visitors are making
you between $110 and $220...

That's a lot easier to live with right?

Now think about this...

Say you hire yourself a $97 copywriter,
who writes you a terrible letter. Which
is likely.

It converts at 0.5%, which is probably
generous.

Suddenly, your 100 visitors are only
worth $5. And it's going to be pretty
tough to get rich off the back of $5,
per hundred visitors.

Even if you're a traffic genius and
you can point 1000 high quality
uniques at your letter a day, you'd
still only be grabbing $50 a day.

...and remember, I said 0.5% was
generous. It's likely to be a lot
less...

Hope that illustration makes you
see why expensive writers are
expensive.

Here's what I'd do if I were you:

Go to Amazon.com and spend
the $100 on copywriting books.

Study them. Hard.

Then write 10 versions of your
salesletter.

The final one you write will
likely be MANY times better
than anything your $97 writer
delivers.

Good luck

-David Raybould

$97 is affordable to everyone -- including the people who pay $5000.

You can bet the farm if they got similar response from a $97 deal they'd take it. Every time.

They don't. That makes the $97 dollar deal unaffordable for people who would love to save $4900.

Paying $5000 for copy when you don't have to is absolutely, categorically, insane. There are few saner and more hard nosed about money than those who pay $5000 and up for copy.

And that's why those who think all that matters is being ballsy enough to just ask five grand for their **** copy will have their head handed to them. Every time.

Hi,
yes there are writers who can write good sale letters in affordable rate.. but I guess it may be a bit more than $97.

Thanks

I like Monte Cristos.

www.copywriter-ac.com





I'm available in July.



B.

You can actually find great copywriters for much less. Just hire a writer at DP; they work for next to near nothing.

Vin;

How do you know chicks don't dig cigars? LOL (I, in fact, would take a cigar before lipstick - but I'm odd! LOL)

Maybe that's a point to bring up in the next copywriting thread... How most of us are eccentric, strange people, but it helps. LOL

Yes, go hire a copywriter at DP for $100. Or go hire a highschool student. Or hire someone to write 3 articles for $10, and string them together with a "buy now" link at the bottom.

Any of those options will probably give you the same results...

Good copywriters don't charge thousands to take advantage of people. In fact, good copywriters charge thousands to make sure THEY aren't being taken advantage of. Do you question when a lawyer who can get you a million dollar settlement on an accident asks for 25%? Of course not, because you're still up $750k.

So why is $3000 for a copywriter out of the question, when it can make you 6 figures?

Just some food for thought...

- Cherilyn

Some of you have mentioned buying books. Can anyone suggest good copywriting books for this matter?

Look there is a lot of good info here to be had on how to write your own copy when you can't afford to pay for it.

I will just say that in my business I have a range that I am willing to accept. If for instance my low amount is $700 and you quote me $500 I do what I can to get you up to $700. If you can't do it, I move on.

Plenty of fish in the sea.

I also think this is an issue where you can't convert everyone to one side or the other. IF they can't pay my fee, we can't work together.

I won't take less and they wont pay more - we can't work together.

You want to pay my fee - great I am ready to work together.

Either way, both sides feet are stuck in sand on this one.


Tim

Michel Fortin tweeted this yesterday:

YouTube - The Vendor Client relationship - in real world situations

Okay, that last post settles it.

Next time a client quibbles on
price or some other detail, I'm
going to point them straight at
this thread.

What a great video... I missed
the tweet of this, great post
Brian...

Thanks man!

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ok GUYS,

I APOLOGIZE!, You were all correct!

I have lost my money which I' invested for this letter and I did because this guy showed me a sample which he wrote for ewen chia) heck!....

Lol, this asshole, didint even did a SMALL research on what exactly I am selling, its like I am selling cars, and he wrote a sales letter on how to drive cars fast(just a example) bloddy, I wish i could've agreed with the people on here, cheap copywriters, are always "CHEAP" even tho $197 wasnt atleast FOR ME! I'll have to do it all myself, I cant even get my money back..... so I've learned a good lesson from my "bad" mistakes...

So I would just like to give out a suggestion, either hire a copywriter whoz not cheap and SERIOUS, or a better one would be, learn copywriting, and always DO IT YOURSELF!.

PS: DP SUCKS! lol...

All the best,
Cheers,
TGK

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Just the humble opinion from someone whose sales copy is depressingly average. My conversion rates for blind traffic seem to hover between two and three percent and for highly targeted traffic between ten and eighteen percent (Yeah, I see the gap there too)

I am desperate so I write a lot to make my bills anyhow.

I am poor so I write cheaply ... my copy is nothing exceptional and I do not pass it off as such.

To compromise? I charge a low base fee and a sliding scale based on conversion rates, (which varies depending on the traffic source)

When people are just starting out, it is difficult to come up with big bucks. They get cheaper copy and somebody who will work with them to make the copy better. I get experience and the opportunity to figure out more about what does and does not work in certain niches.

The biggest problem I have discovered is that many people new to IM are also going to traffic exchange sites, mailing to safelists and other questionable (at best) sources for traffic. The freelance sites are full of people asking for thousands of new email accounts to fill new and improved mailing lists that they turn around and sell or charge for mailing out to ... the end result being that people are not really ever seeing the offers in question.

There are so many variables when writing copy that I can understand why not a lot of people are doing this and someone who has a good reputation would likely lose their reputation (and their ability to charge for it) in a hurry working like this but when you are just starting out, sometimes you have to do the best you can with what you have.

Just my two cents for whatever it's worth

I will see what I can find on my cds. I am just now rebuilding from nothing but personally, I thought those numbers were pretty average. I know when I was doing real world marketing, I expected nothing less than five percent from a "blind" mailing.

Now before I go making an ass out of myself, by blind traffic I mean no PPC or anything, just whoever happens along the sites. PPC I have never had the luxury of working with. The only sales pages I have done for others were for highly targeted lists in areas I know a bit about.

If you are serious, I can do a couple of free pages, test them of your own accord and if you get good results, give me a kick back and a testimonial perhaps.

In the meantime, I will break out some cds today ... I lost my old website and pretty much everything else so right now I am working with a cd player on a PII with an 8gig hard drive but I can swing by the net cafe with my DVDs this week and see what I can find.

And no, I am not trying to cut anybody's throat here. I am a fairly good marketer for impulse markets and that is where my experience is but yes, I am desperate too LOL (What I would give for a new laptop eh?) so if you are serious and you have a small project you do not mind "risking", I will happy to provide you with a sales page and see what you do with real testing. Mind you, I am not talking about safelists like I am using at the moment ... but with "real traffic" I am confident that you will get good results. Mind you, in the past, those numbers come from continuing to work with my clients (on a sliding scale I had to) and testing and tweaking but I am certainly open to any work I can get at the moment.

Now, I cannot think of any more excuses for failure LOL but seriously, if you have some projects that you want to test it out on, I am more than happy to work with you. In the meantime, I have a request up for a critique of my newest sales letter so you may want to look at that to find out what you think ... mind you that was a two-hour job and not for a paying client so it may not be a great example.

Just my two cents

Hi TGK,

Yes it's possible to find a writer to do your copy at that price. Especially if it's a noob. Do check your PM inbox tonight. Like Cherilyn said, YOU might just find a hidden GEM

Cheers to fruition!
Jay B.

If you offer peanuts you get a monkey. On the other hand you could try the Philippines or India, US peanuts would be like coconuts for those two countries.

Senve... come on now... I thought you had learned a valuable lesson here. Don't slide backward.

This software is not going to sell anything for you. Trust me on this. You'd be wasting another $97.

That may be true, but surely the desired
result here is to make sales, not salesletters?

When your ten salesletters don't make a single
sale between them, you're still out 97 bucks.

Sorry dude.

-David Raybould

Yes, it is. Though more difficult to find. I have a GREAT writer that does salesletters for under $300. Though of course, then you have to test and tweak.

Hi

After reading this thread, I don't believe a good sale copy can be found for cheap.

The objective is sales not pages. I know if the requirements to create a sales page and have done a few but when I compare mine to great copy writers, mine is crap and I now only use copy writers.

The sales from the sales page is the most important aspect of your product. No matter how good your product is, if you have a crap sales page, you will not sell much. It is not about the page, it is about the emotional and psychological triggers.

Having been working/partnering with a great if not awesome copy writer who has posted to this thread, I am extremely impressed. This is the difference between a successful launch and just putting something up on the internet.

Yes, there are those few gems who are good and may charge less than $1,000 but as people have said you get what you pay for.

Remember one of the most successful ways to launch a product is via JVs and trust me if your sales copy is not up to scratch then you won't get many JVs promoting your product nor affiliates via Clickbank.

As for those software applications that create sales pages for you, I have tried a few as well as sales page templates and although they create and format the sales pages correctly they do not target those sales triggers. I find these apps a complete waste of time.

Regards
Mark

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Nice - This thread got Sticky, I've updated the main thread a bit. Hope it all helps.

Cheers,
Roshan

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Wordpro,

Chill.

There are definitely great copywriters who start out low. Mike Humphreys wrote his first letter for $300 or so, I think, as did Bruce Wedding (I remember reading this somewhere... correct me if I'm wrong guys!).

Vin wrote his first paid letter for $500.

But they're the exception. For every one of them, there's about a thousand hack writers who charge next to nothing and put out crappy work... again, and again, and again...

Think of it like the lottery. Sure, if you buy a ticket, you might win that ten million bucks... but you have a snowball's chance in hell.

Let me tell you something... writing a good letter takes a lot of time. I have never met a good copywriter who can say otherwise. Writing a letter that LOOKS, to the untrained eye (which is why you get a copywriter in the first place, usually) that it will work is easy.

Actually writing one that DOES convert is far, far harder.

To write a good letter, you have to study the market til you know them inside out. Analyze the competition. Intimately aquaint yourself with the client's product. Derive a USP. Understand WHAT you're going to say in the letter...

So, right there, that's probably at least 20 hours worth of work before you start writing.

If you charge $100/letter, that's $5/hr... not exactly worth it when you can make more at Maccas.

Now, understand that I have been a $100 writer... so I know what I'm talking about. When I started out, I did 4 letters for $97/piece... and you know what? Those letters took me about 20 hours each. They were good... not amazing, but good, and from what I hear, the clients who actually used them made some okay money out of them.

So the next two letters I wrote were at $500... and they were better... and took 25 hours each. So now I'm making an okay wage... but still not a great one... considering the insane amount of work that I put into them (and the insane amount of money they have the capacity to generate).

Then I started working with Vin... and my letters are now taking even longer to write... but they're getting pretty good. And I now charge about $3 000 a letter... and that's increasing every letter.

So it's taken me about 10 letters, I think, to go from $100/letter to $3 000/letter... and people who are smarter than I am don't start at $100.

Can you see now why it is next to impossible to get a good writer for $100?

Here's the other side of the coin... I get a much better class of client. Clients actually USE the letters I write for them... generate traffic, and get solid results... which I can then use to get more clients...

So, whilst I'm not down on all low-fee copywriters... having been one myself, if only briefly (although some would probably still consider me a low-fee copywriter)... I do understand that most of them can't write worth a cup of cold water.

Now, since you brought it up, let's look at your 4-hour letter at Wordpress Squeeze Pages: Wordpress Squeeze Page Generator :Wordpress Squeeze Pages

Now, by skimming this letter real quick I can see some major problems. Your headline's too long. You are light on benefits and emotional punch. The order of your copy's "parts" doesn't really flow well, your bullets are non-existent (nobody really cares about a "feature", only what it will do for them)... and so on.

Now, here's the funny thing... I bet if you spent another twenty hours on that letter, or whatever... you could make it absolutely killer. There are some really strong points that you've hinted at... and if you had a mentor they would show this up for you.

But as it stands, it's pretty weak. And, as Mike said, it's one of the better $100 letters I've seen.

Now, I'm not trying to be a dick for the sake of it. It's clear you have an excellent grip on the English language (better than myself for certain, and probably many others)... and you've obviously at least studied some copywriting. If you keep writing, I think you could be an amazing copywriter.

High fees come with confidence, and confidence comes with proven results... and proven results comes with writing a lot of good letters.

So until you can show me someone who has written more than a few low priced letters who consistently hits it "out of the park"... your comments are just misleading. They're a nice thought, sure, but they ain't reality.

-Dan

Mark,

It's great to know that you've actually taken our advice on board. Most people just ignore what you have to say... even had you honesty and truly read it, thought about it, and discarded it, I would have been happy.

It takes balls to say "I was wrong" or even "I wasn't 100% right"... and I wish more people around had the wisdom and courage you do.

By the way, a quick tip from a fellow copywriter... use shorter sentences. Your whole paragraphs are one big sentence... split them up and use elipses (...) instead of commas wherever possible.

Just a tip I've picked up from a far better writer than myself.

-Dan

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Great thread eveyone. :-)

I have copywriting issues too. I couldn't afford to hire anyone so took an option to have a consultation phonecall with a good copywriter. Then I spent four days getting my head into the right space and wrote a sales letter that doesn't sell.

Apparently my letter is 1000 times better than my first but I really don't like writing. There were a ton of things that I would rather have spent four days working on.

I am good at back end creating products but can't seem to get the front end sales right.

I was thinking about joint venturing with a copywriter but don't know whether that is a more viable option to go with rather than paying someone.

What do you guys think?

I am concerned that I am going to have someone come to me and say hey yeah I am good, i would like to joint venture with you, and then turn out to be not too good.

What kind of questions or expectations should I have for someone to prove themselves?

[DELETED]

It's incredible how much I have learned in this single thread. Thank you all.

Thanks Dean,

I am in a business marketing group here in Australia so I have already got good relationships. Its another month before we meet up. At least I have more of an idea about the 'reality' of the situation.

Thanks :-)

Seems to me, if you can write good copy for yourself, Killer-ads that you know are effective, why shouldn't you make a few extra bucks writing copy for other people?

Someone described Copywriters as 'Bottom-Feeders'.. For me, if client and provider are both happy, what's wrong with that?

And to think about it., who made the most money in the 1849 Gold Rush? The guys who sold shovels and pans, that's who. Now they were bottom feeders, but they didn't get their hands quite so dirty!

jj

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I think so far I've invested $4k - $5k training myself to learn copywriting. Notice I said "invest'? That's what you're paying for when you hire a copywriter. Someone who is providing a tool to help you get a ROI of the letter.

You might consider going to AWAI (American Writers and Artist's Institute) for a great course. It was one of the best investments of my professional copywriting career.

Susan

I think it's more about the sales letter writer and less about the price.

You can find people who are charging WAY TOO MUCH for boring, crappy copy... and you can find people who are charging $200 for copy that is powerful and effective.

Some copywriters use templates, they follow a set pattern and they don't take the time to create original hooks that grab reader's attention... and these copywriters aren't worth any amount of money.

But if you can find a copywriter who will take the time to get into the mind of your buyer and identify the CORE reason for buying... then they are worth any fee.

I think the key to finding a good copywriter for a low proce is to find someone who is working to build their business up and willing to work for less money.

[DELETED]

Your question is "Can I afford To Purchase a good sales letter?"

My question is
"Can you afford not to?"

By that I mean you will get more concersions. However if you cannot afford a couple of thousand for your sales letter write your own and save your profits if there are any ot get a sales letter with a better conversion rate!
La dominatrix

For $97 bucks you should buy a salesletter software - from Marlon Sanders or Mark Hendricks and just follow the step-by-step instructions.

I don't outsource my salescopy -as you need to be in touch to really nail it.

However, paying someone to make it better is another thing...

It pays to know how to do the bones of it yourself, IMO

My recommendation is to do as much as possible on your own. First you learn about copywriting from this forum, then you can even watch free videos and advice on it. My boy Brian McElroy has so many free vids on copywriting. I followed those videos to a T to write my first copy letter.

Do as much of the background research as possible, write the copy letter as best as you can, and get in touch with a recommended copywriter. Ask a high priced copywriter to recommend a good copywriter who can clean it up for you at a reduced rate. His reputation will be on the line if he recommends you to someone so he's likely to refer you to someone good. He/she would know what good copywriting talent is.

Provide this person with all the work you've done. The copyletter you wrote, a thorough summary of your research, and anything you can do to make it easier on the copywriter. You should expect a "clean and polish" job for about $500 or so. But seriously, it's worth the investment and when it comes to copy, you get what you pay for.

[DELETED]

[DELETED]

No offense Dan... but 99% of the time if someone asks for a "re-write"... or a "polish job"... their copy is seriously flawed to begin with... and it's easier to start over.

If you've hit all the right points and just need someone to shorten your sentences... use stronger wording... maybe re-write a subhead or two... then sure, a re-write will do it (but I would expect it to run you closer to $1 000 for a cheap writer (a GOOD cheap writer that is)).

The thing is though, more than half of what we do as copywriters is to get all those points nailed... so a rewrite won´t help unless things are already pretty goddamn good.

Dan

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Hi Roshan,

If you want to have a great sales letter written at that price my friend, you'd be better of buying a book on copywriting from the likes of one of the greats, like Michel Fortin, Gary Halbert, Dan Kennedy, Awaionline, Clayton Makepeace or Marlon Sanders...

These guys know their copywriting and can give you the basics of a solid letter, from there, you could "SAVE" your money and model a great letter from someone you know is doing well from theirs (don't copy it, model it) and from there test, test and test some more.

Out of all the great skills you can learn, copywriting is one of them and you should learn this skill yourself... My thoughts are, for $97 you would do a better job yourself than outsource it, as most copywriters even in the $400 to $1000 range are quite ordinary...

Good copy comes from deeply knowing your product and the problem that it solves and it's not hard to do once you know the basics, always stick to the basics, don't pressure your reader, be natural and allow your copy to flow out of you then polish it up and shorten it and you'll be fine.

As long as you have the basic ingredients in place and you'll be on good ground to go from there.

Model the greats you can't go too far wrong my friend.

I agree with MikeHumphreys above. His analysis is right on target.

The problem you have when you try to hire a copywriter for under $100 is that either the copywriter would have to already know you, your product, your competition, and the target audience/readership of your sales letter -- all of them -- really, really well. Before he began your project. Then, he'd have to (okay, or she'd have to) be able to knock-out your copy in a couple hours at most, or maybe even a few minutes!

Do you know anyone with a couple of late model cars, a nice house, an education, and in-depth knowledge of you, your specialty, your competition, and your audience... who is ready to work for only $30, $40 or $50 bucks an hour? In other words, is there someone around who has obligations, bills to pay, a life, and ALSO the willingness to write your email letter or sales pitch... at a small fraction of what he/she needs to maintain his/her successful lifestyle?

Maybe.

And that person is probably your brother, or your father, or sister... or your mother. Anyone else would need you to pay them enough to make it worth their while.

So, we're left with the advice that you ended up giving yourself. The BEST approach is to simply do it yourself. YOU are probably the smartest person you can find, the most talented, the most capable, and the most willing... you are the one. You are the one who will do the job... and do it right.

Oh, it may take you longer than that high-dollar expert could have done. But, the job can be done right, if you do a bit of prep, research, a bit of reading and a LOT of editing.

Go out there and hire the best guy or gal for the job... YOU !

Have fun doing it, and know that you've in fact actually hired the right person for the job.

[DELETED]

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[DELETED]

I live in the jungles of Borneo and even I can't charge that little.

You may find my copy hits the spot for someone looking for an affordable copywriter...

www.copywriter-ac.com


*Alan does a rare spot of self-promotion on the Warrior forum*



B.

In fairness Mark, this guy uses a LOT of capital letters where he shouldn't... which is another reason that I question the validity of his criticism.

I don't think he's rubbishing you... I think you're being paranoid.

Could be wrong, though.

I also don't remember him attacking me. Disagreeing with me, perhaps... and even then I think it was more a communication error than anything.

Let's all keep in mind that 95% of your message is lost when you speak in text only.

That's why good copywriters charge what we do... we have to be VERY careful about the way we say things in order to get the desired results.

-Dan

nontemplates (can you sign your name so I can call you a real name? LOL),

Your logic explains EXACTLY why a cheap copywriter won't be any good. If they can't sell themselves (and make decent money) how can they sell YOUR product?

If I wanted to hire a copywriter, I'd do some research, see if I liked someone's style... then email them and ask them to give me SPECIFIC examples of where they've done killer work. Most copywriters won't be able to tell you everything, of course, for confidentiality reasons... but you can usually get a good idea of their skillset.

Then email copywriters you KNOW are good. Get some samples, and PM Vin Montello, Mike Humphreys, Ray Edwards, Scott, whoever... guys you KNOW are good. They might not have the time to help you but if you get lucky one of them will.

Heck, if you email them and explain your situation they might be able to RECOMMEND a writer. I know Vin passes off work all the time from people who want a copywriter but don't have his (admittedly hefty) fee handy... so he recommends someone he knows will do a good job in that price range. Most copywriters do a similar thing.

Knowing what I know now... that's what I'd do.

But, of course, if you don't have $3000+... forget about hiring a copywriter. Either go through the agony of doing it yourself and watch as it won't convert (it's what I did, and how I learned to write copy), or (what I SHOULD have done) market affiliate offers until you have the cash to burn.

-Dan

nontemplates,

It's not just the capital letters... your writing on this forum isn't good. Now, granted, some people don't feel that a forum warrants care and attention... but when I think about great writers, I think of guys like C Darklock and Paul Myers... who always write amazing posts.

Granted, there are amazing COPYWRITERS like Vin who don't write posts with the same finesse and elegance... but they're always clear and easy to understand.

Now, aside from that, you have some incorrect assumptions about copywriting that you put across as fact... intentionally or not. I good rule of thumb is to try and clarify your position by stating "In my experience" or "I am of the opinion that"... just to keep everything square and to ensure that we don't confuse newbies with our OPINIONS.

Sound fair?

Now, to address your point...

I can understand why you may think the way you do (a copywriter's writing has to grab you)... but it ain't necessarily so.

A good copywriter can be OBJECTIVE about the stuff he sees... and let me tell you, I've seen some brilliant copy that didn't grab me, even when I was the target market.

Didn't stop it from converting like crazy, though.

My point is that most people can't TELL whether copy is good or bad... which is why the $97 sales letters sell like crazy. They're terrible, but the person buying them (and the person writing them) doesn't know that.

-Dan

Woah! I skipped over your rant and just saw this. You are WAAAAAY off base. You've been reading too much on NLP. Lets clear the air. I was not drawing attention to your website. As Daniel has stated I have been capitalizing C needlessly for awhile just one of those slips and I don't get why in the world IM which is an abbreviation would target your site because I don't even remember your URL until you brought it up.

Props to you mark. You obviously thought although - stating otherwise on your other attack posts - that I am an incredibly bright person. Thanks for the vote of confidence but no definitely no connection there. I actually saw something you wrote the other day and thought it was't half bad and thats not a backhanded slap.

Mike,

First of all... I don't ever work for people if I have doubts about their integrity or the quality of their product.

I've been lucky so far.

I'm not "dodging" anything... I'm telling you my honest opinion.

I apologize if I have misunderstood you... it's a forum, these things happen.

My point is that copy not grabbing you doesn't mean it's bad. In fact it could be damn good, as I've experienced myself... and you can be in the target market... and still not be moved, per se.

It can still be killer copy though. Perhaps appealing to a slightly different type of person than you are, or something like not... not resonating with you... but that's why good copy converts at maybe 3% (depending on multiple factors of course) instead of 93%.

My point is that 99%+ of people can't tell the difference between a $97 sales letter and a good one.. and those are PRECISELY the people who need to have copy written for them. It's a catch 22 situation... but unless you know a lot about copywriting you can easily screw yourself over.

Another point to consider... when you sell $97 sales letters it's easy to con people. $5 000? Not so much... your reputation SERIOUSLY comes into play there. How good a rep do you think a bad copywriter has?

I've got two words for you that will give you an idea of what reputation means to a copywriter: Nicholas Cole.

Look it up.

You are very unlikely to get screwed by an expensive copywriter. I know Vin won't take a project he doesn't think has a chance. Mike Humphreys, by his own admission, is the same, and I work the same way.

Pretty much every professional copywriter I know (that charges a fair amount) is nothing but ethical and professional... because you can't survive in this game being anything but.

-Dan

The threat is off topic to discuss in this thread Daniel and like you said we hardly respect each other at this point (although I respect you as a forum member even if you don't) and should withdraw from this thread as its just derailing it further. If you want to discuss the threat do so in the thread you made it in.

Well that's certainly been a funsome exchange but we're all out of popcorn now, so how's about everybody smooch and make pinky pledges to be nice? Preferably silently, without posting

As a sticky thread this was a valuable resource, now somewhat blighted with an entire page of bickering. Yuk.

I have my own opinion on some of the things said, but if I can resist the temptation then I'm sure you guys can

Now, back to the actual topic... me! But no, seriously...

I am probably a good example for this, so not pimping too much, I hope. My rate, for a full salesletter, with a couple or three weeks of research and everything done very professionally, thankyouverymuch, is $770.

The site explains it but here's why:

1. Very cheap cost of living here
2. I'm fussy, prefering to choose what I'll do and when, rather than licking the crack of a high-paying client. Bottom line, if someone were paying me $5,000 I'd feel a level of obligation to them that I'm just not comfortable with.

No-one, and I don't care who they are, can guarantee their copy. If I'm not 100% certain of improving the client's results, or, if a new product, that it's a seller, I won't take it on. Fact remains, no-one can guarantee any particular level.

I can only guarantee an improvement. I can't guarantee 5% or whatever. Nobody can.

That I could squeeze clients for five grand is not the issue. For me to be completely comfortable I need to know my fee is great value, easily worth more than the client paid. Ideally a lot more. That way everyone is happy.

I spent years in a high-stress career and like most people here have struggled in the past to figure out what works best online. Today I've reached a happy, zen-like existence, quite literally waking up each day on a beautiful tropical island, where I don't have to do a damn thing I don't want to. My total expenses for a month, everything, including mortgage, comes to around $500, max. That includes eating out a lot at nice places.

Fun fact - I have other businesses that bring in some cash, my wife has a full-time career - I could stop copywriting tomorrow and cope fine.

I'm not gonna screw with that zenniness for the sake of some stranger's cash. $770 gets me motivated, it gets my best efforts and dedication - within limits. Pee me off, push me, be a pain in my (perky) posterior and I'll GLADLY say goodbye to the seven hundred bux. Life's too short.

It took me a lifetime to get where I am today. I wouldn't swap my life with anybody. If I charged more then sure, I could have a bigger house, a bigger car, and more expenses. So what?

WIIFM?

Geddit?

My situation is unusual, I know. Fact is, not everyone who can charge more, necessarily should do, or wants to.

Pricing works both ways. You can buy $770 of my time and dedication; and it's damn good value. The rest aint for sale.


I'll shut up now. Carry on...



B.

(www.copywriter-ac.com)

PS: This was a moment of pure self-indulgence, nearly 100% about ME! Damn that felt good. Oh well, back to work. About you..?

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Hmm,

I don't really consider myself a copywriter, but it's not difficult to write a sales letter that converts when you know your market.

As for getting a copywriter for $97, maybe if he is JUST getting started...

Saying that, you don't need to be a copywriter to make thousands of dollars from your own sales letters. I write almost everything myself, and I make a lot of sales.

Franck
the Body Guard marketer

If you want to cut the cost of copy writing brush up you own skills. Even if you can't achieve the cutting edge level needed to capture google effectively, by being able to give your copy writer a well worked draft you should be able to haggle the price for them to do the final edit.

Great advice...

...unless you're in a market that has ANY decent competition.

Look... Eben's selling stuff. He's telling you what people want to hear... that with the right formula, anyone can write a killer letter.

One of his markets (dating) - that approach would never work. There's no USP. There's no differentiation. There's no credibility. There's no proof.

There's no reason to pick your cookie-cutter copy over the far superior-looking offers other people are throwing out there.

Let's be realistic...

If writing copy that made a lot of money was that easy, everyone would do it.

Companies wouldn't be paying guys like Bencivenga and Makepeace $50k + royalties.

Don't get me wrong... as formulas go, it's not terrible. And I appreciate that you're trying to help.

But come on dude... thinking you can avoid hiring a pro just because you heard Eben say something at a seminar? You're either talented beyond the capabilities of most people...

...or you're dreaming.

Worse... you're throwing your unsubstantiated opinion down as fact.

I work in the industry. I've written killer letters that have pulled in a lot of dough. And I'll tell you right now your formula is FAR from complete.

Real copywriters don't usually rely on formulas... at least not strongly. Sure, there are things that kind of pop up when they do (the price justification is never at the start, for example). But there is a LOT of creativity that goes into a good letter, and following a formula inhibits that.

In short... bad advice. Kudos for trying to help - seriously -but next time don't just blindly regurgitate what some "guru" said as fact, because you're doing a lot of damage.

-Daniel

It really isn't much different from hiring a lawyer.

If you start up a technology company that's going to require knowledge of IP law so you can file patents, you need to hire a specialized IP lawyer. Not some hack who just passed the bar. You know that going in, and you secure some funds from VC, loans, grants, what have you.

Good copywriting is part of the cost of being in the information business. Be prepared. Or be prepared to chase that buck for quite some time.

The idea that a salesletter could ever be $97 is shocking. When someone spends a week (or more) writing headlines over and over to get the perfect one, that's a lot of billable hours. Even though it looks like barely anything has been done. Not only that but sales letters always seem to be very very long.

If there are copywriters who will charge $97, you could potentially buy 10 versions from 10 different copywriters and split test them all yourself. If luck is blowing in your direction it could work out cheaper.

its like anything you just gotta throw a bunch of stuff against the wall and see what sticks.

be prepared to "waste" some money till you find a good one.

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