Big Ad Agencies And Their Clients Give Me A Belly Laugh

75 replies
Current issue of "The Economist" (BlackRock cover) inside cover (2-page) spread...



Current rate $181,150. Ad agency gets $27,172.50.

Could most in here write a better ad for Rolex? You betcha.

Current issue of of "Forbes" Investment Guide 2014 inside (2-page) spread (near the front)...



Couldn't find the spread rate, but a 1 page ad is going for $142.520... so it's around $225,000 for a spread. Ad agency is getting $33,750.

I have to admire the salesmanship of the ad agency selling the advertiser on such a stoopid ad. Whoever at Hemes approved this ad needs to be fired.

When I saw the ad above ... "WTF! some ad agency got $33,750 for that piece of cr@p?" ... ran through my head.
#agencies #belly #big #clients #give #laugh
  • Profile picture of the author sonixkid3000
    Jesus these are pathetic lol
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  • I don't even understand the second one. My eyes ain't so good. OK, "sporting life," so is he out hiking, or is he wearing snow shoes? Are those hiking poles, or some kind of ski pole? If you've ever hiked in virgin snow, that's not what the tracks look like. Do people usually have two hiking sticks?
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    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by KingOfContentMarketing View Post

      Do people usually have two hiking sticks?
      The answer is "yes" - helps your rhythm. Very common here in Europe.
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    • Originally Posted by KingOfContentMarketing View Post

      I don't even understand the second one. My eyes ain't so good. OK, "sporting life," so is he out hiking, or is he wearing snow shoes? Are those hiking poles, or some kind of ski pole? If you've ever hiked in virgin snow, that's not what the tracks look like. Do people usually have two hiking sticks?
      And where's this guy's hat or earmuffs? If it's cold enough for gloves, his ears have to be freezing!

      New slogan:
      Why worry about the cold when you look so damn good?
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      • Originally Posted by Benjamin Farthing View Post

        And where's this guy's hat or earmuffs? If it's cold enough for gloves, his ears have to be freezing!

        New slogan:
        Why worry about the cold when you look so damn good?
        And is that his house in the background? Better keep going. Sun is setting.

        Of course these are image ads, and I wish they had some added great copy like Subtle wrote, but I think many brands such as Rolex are PURE image--they confirm high status more so than say, Waffle House. In that case, just running a simple ad in the Economist may say more than any text.
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        Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
        - Jack Trout
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        • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
          Originally Posted by KingOfContentMarketing View Post

          Of course these are image ads, and I wish they had some added great copy like Subtle wrote, but I think many brands such as Rolex are PURE image--they confirm high status more so than say, Waffle House. In that case, just running a simple ad in the Economist may say more than any text.
          J. Peterman wrote the copy.

          Cartier is an "image" brand like Rolex and yet they weren't afraid to add copy to the 2-page spread ad (which followed the Hermes ad in the Forbes magazine). Their copy wasn't good, plus it was hard to read since it was set in a small font ... all in uppercase letters...and reversed out:

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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny12345
    Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

    I have to admire the salesmanship of the ad agency selling the advertiser on such a stoopid ad. Whoever at Hemes approved this ad needs to be fired.

    When I saw the ad above ... "WTF! some ad agency got $33,750 for that piece of cr@p?" ... ran through my head.

    What are you talking about? This is one of the best ads for walking sticks that I've ever seen!

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Thing is...both those products are well-known and long-established luxury brands (Hermes was established 1837, Rolex 1905)...put in front of an audience who are familiar with the products. All it's doing is going for "top of mind" recall. Yeah both spots are naff but it's probably all that's needed.

    Which isn't to say that you wouldn't create much better spots Subtle. You know I'm a big fan of your work so don't take this the wrong way.

    In 2012 the house in the rue Faubourg Saint Honoré has recorded sales of 3.484 billion euro, an increase of 22.6% compared to 2011, and the best operating profit ever since listing in 1993 which stood at 1.119 billion euro (+26.4%) carving out a share of 32.1% of sales. A double digit growth is the net profit, exceeding the target of 740 million euro (+24.6%) gaining an increase of 155% compared to 2008. A drive sales of the group led by Patrick Thomas, who is preparing to lead the last fiscal year at the top of the company (the handover with Axel Dumas, a member of the sixth generation of the family, should not be before the end of ' years, ed) is once again the Asia Pacific, which marks an increase of 25% thanks to two new stores opened in Taiwan and China and the six boutique renovated or expanded, while in Japan, 2011 after a relatively stable conditional the aftermath of the tsunami in March, returns to growth of 7%.Europe is no less, which recorded an increase of 15% in almost all countries thanks to the contribution of tourists, as well as the Americas, which make sign a jump of 14% in revenues thanks to the expansion of the retail network . From the product point of view, are the high jewelry and art de la table in the best performance (+45%), followed by 22% of the division ready to wear and accessories which continues to grow after the arrival of Christophe Lemaire as creative director. A double-digit increase recorded by the core business of the group, saddlery and harness (+12%), who in response to the growing demand for leather goods opened in 2012 two new workshops in France, more precisely in Charente and Isère. It did not disappoint the other divisions of the transalpine house from silk (+16%) fragrances (+14%), driven by best-selling Terre d'Hermès and new launches Voyage d'Hermès and L'ambre de parfum merveilles, till the watches (+17%), the sector on which Hermès is investing some time as evidenced by the acquisition of manufacturing Joseph Erard and Vaucher Fleurier through its subsidiary La Montre Hermès. Among the items on the rise, the number of employees in 2012 has created 800 new jobs, bringing the total number of employees at an altitude of 10,118 (of which 6,110 in France). The philosophy for 2013 will be played on the slogan: "A sporting life." That will be a year based on optimism and energy. Because it is the values ​​of sport, which distinguishes the brand from its origins, the Hermès wants to find new blood to continue to grow, replicating a path that up to now has been running in the race.
    I think you'll find they know what they're doing, mate. The other spots in the campaign are slicker than this one. It would be better with footprints in the snow - as if he's walking barefoot in the deep snow - don't you think? - rather than the well-worn track and the model plonked there looking rather silly holding two baguettes ("sticks" in French).

    My neighbour is a house-model for them BTW. They're a class act. And very expensive.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      Thing is...both those products are well-known and long-established luxury brands (Hermes was established 1837, Rolex 1905)...put in front of an audience who are familiar with the products. All it's doing is going for "top of mind" recall. Yeah both spots are naff but it's probably all that's needed.

      Which isn't to say that you wouldn't create much better spots Subtle. You know I'm a big fan of your work so don't take this the wrong way.
      Even well-known brands can have better ads than just plopping down an image of a watch or some guy walking in the snow. Imagine for a second J. Peterman-style copy on the Hermes ad.

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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

        Even well-known brands can have better ads than just plopping down an image of a watch or some guy walking in the snow. Imagine for a second J. Peterman-style copy on the Hermes ad.

        It's not needed...and that copy sucks.
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        • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
          Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

          It's not needed...and that copy sucks.
          I'm with Mal.

          My somewhat informed opinion?

          These ads exist just to show the world,
          "look how much we can spend on ads!"

          The target market wants something successful. Spending $billions on worthless but tasteful advertising is a wonderful way to show that yes, you're successful as hell. Lots of rich people are CLEARLY buying Rolexes. Maybe you, Mr. Rich Guy, should join your buddies.

          Somewhere there's a Madison Avenue whitepaper-type report to the effect that "let's face it guys, all we do is prove our clients have money to burn."

          No, seriously, this actually exists, I've seen it, I just can't remember where.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
            Originally Posted by DanSharp View Post

            I'm with Mal.

            My somewhat informed opinion?

            These ads exist just to show the world,
            "look how much we can spend on ads!"

            The target market wants something successful. Spending on worthless but tasteful advertising is a wonderful way to show that yes, you're successful as hell. Lots of rich people are CLEARLY buying Rolexes. Maybe you, Mr. Rich Guy, should join your buddies.

            Somewhere there's a Madison Avenue whitepaper-type report to the effect that "let's face it guys, all we do is prove our clients have money to burn."

            No, seriously, this actually exists, I've seen it, I just can't remember where.
            I had NO IDEA what the 2nd ad was advertising until I read Mal's explanation. And then for a minute I thought it was for the walking sticks.

            The Rolex one kind of makes sense: you know what it is, Mister Bigshot, and you want it!

            But the Hermes (I think "ties" and that's it for Hermes) one was indecipherable unless you already knew their product range. And why was model turned around? "I walked out here into the snowy wilderness" is OK, I guess; however, the "and then I turned around and looked back the way I came with a bored expression while my destination chalet played Peek-A-Boo behind me" is confusing. He looks lost. I don't get a message out of this ad and it doesn't make me want to buy anything. So much for postmodernism.

            Vic got us looking at and talking about these. Thanks for that. I don't read many magazines so would not see ads like these.

            Anyhow, there has been a loud conflict between direct marketers and creative agencies for the past 40+ years. So it isn't surprising to have a difference in opinion on these.
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            • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
              Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

              But the Hermes (I think "ties" and that's it for Hermes) one was indecipherable unless you already knew their product range.
              My opinion is split on the Hermes ad:
              1) Just goes to show "mad men" can even screw up burning their clients' money in public.

              2) The point was to get viewers asking, "what's this pretty alpine picture here for" and hunting around for an explanation until they found the Hermes logo, which creates "engagement." See also 1).

              EDIT: A good example of the concept behind 2) done right is the "FREE MONEY." full page ad someone ran in a big national newspaper a few years ago. Anyone remember this one?

              Anyway, on some level you might be able to turn this idea into a way of pre-qualifying prospects before they read the ad.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                Originally Posted by DanSharp View Post

                My opinion is split on the Hermes ad:
                1) Just goes to show "mad men" can even screw up burning their clients' money in public.

                2) The point was to get viewers asking, "what's this pretty alpine picture here for" and hunting around for an explanation until they found the Hermes logo, which creates "engagement." See also 1).

                EDIT: A good example of the concept behind 2) done right is the "FREE MONEY." full page ad someone ran in a big national newspaper a few years ago. Anyone remember this one?

                Anyway, on some level you might be able to turn this idea into a way of pre-qualifying prospects before they read the ad.
                Thanks for sharing your opinion, Dan. Interesting to think about. Especially the pre-qualification. If they hunt, they invest. If they invest, they are more likely to take action.

                IMO if an ad isn't conveying a clear message, even if that message is interpreted differently by various social strata, backgrounds, education etc. (thus my "postmodern" comment above), it's a failure.
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                • Profile picture of the author jimbo13
                  Hermes sales are up 24% last year on the year before.

                  This year will be higher again.

                  Operating profits are at its highest since the company formed in the 1800s.

                  Go to the exclusive shops in London and Paris that sell this stuff.

                  Bus loads of people are hoovering it off of the shelves.

                  The Ad says one thing.

                  Exclusive.

                  That is why no one else is in it.

                  And exclusive is what very high end consumers want.

                  The Ad agency understands this perfectly.

                  This is not even the luxury market.

                  It is known as The Absolute Luxury Market. The pinnacle.

                  Dan
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                  • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
                    Originally Posted by jimbo13 View Post

                    Hermes sales are up 24% last year on the year before.

                    This year will be higher again.
                    Overall company numbers do not tell us anything about the success of this particular ad.

                    They run all kinds of campaigns. Some are no doubt more successful than others.

                    Here are two more examples of Hermes advertising, which at least "say something."



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  • Profile picture of the author Joan Altz
    It's no different than using "pattern interrupt" ad strategy on Facebook.

    And the artistic impression (what I get from it anyhow):

    Words Can't Describe. Claim Your Space. Elite-R-Us.
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  • Profile picture of the author RogozRazvan
    Rolex is a brand that is well known by its target market. In other words, it doesn't require any education since they are not targeting the "Oh, that's a nice watch, let's find out more about it and cash out $10.000 to buy one" but rather "I want to buy a premium watch but I don't know what to pick".

    Yes, it could be done better but the stronger the brand is and the more targeted the medium, the easier it becomes to sell to a market THAT IS ALREADY aware of the brand.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    lol.

    have any of you guys ever worked in the ad industry or in an ad agency?

    if all these ad agencies were morons as you guys seem to think, they wouldn't be bringing in big $$ for these brands.

    hundreds of millions

    I laugh at these posts...
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    • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      if all these ad agencies were morons as you guys seem to think, they wouldn't be bringing in big $$ for these brands.

      hundreds of millions

      I laugh at these posts...
      New Book Reports 37% of All Advertising Is Wasted

      Five-Year Research Project Tracked $1 Billion in Spending by 36 Major Marketers

      Only 37.3% of advertising budgets are wasted.
      (The Rolex and Hermes ads above would fall into that category.)

      The bold proclamations in "What Sticks: Why Most Advertising Fails and How to Guarantee Yours Succeeds," to be released next month by Kaplan Publishing, are the result of five years of research on campaigns from 36 of the nation's top advertisers

      "I spent the first decade of my career as an agency media guy," Mr. Stuart said in an interview. "I felt like a charlatan the entire time. ... I knew in my heart of hearts that we collectively, not just Greg Stuart, did not know what we were doing in spending clients' money."

      The book is something of a marketing 12-step program for Mr. Stuart, who in a footnote actually apologizes to each of his clients from that era by corporate name, including American Express, PepsiCo's Frito-Lay, Apple and Sears.



      New Book Reports 37% of All Advertising Is Wasted | News - Advertising Age
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  • Profile picture of the author big tymer
    that just shows you how good they are at selling, they convinced the client to spend big amount of money on these ads
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    subtle.... sorry bro... anyone can get stats on anything to make any position look good.

    ads bombed.

    yes. it happens.

    how many offers have you tested that were home runs?

    100%?

    go ask carlton, makespeace etc. what % of their ads bombed.

    it happens in every industry.

    No one bats 100% dude.

    wonder how these companies got all this money to burn on crappy ads.

    wait....

    advertising.

    duh.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
      Originally Posted by davemiz View Post

      ads bombed.

      yes. it happens.

      how many offers have you tested that were home runs?
      That's NOT my point. I posted two ADs that are a horrible waste of client's money. It's the kind of ad that the book talked about. It's a 37 percenter. If you can't see that ... oh well.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mr. Subtle
        About 10 pages from the Cartier full page spread (which was right after the Hermes ad) is this ad...



        I'm willing to bet this ad isn't a 37%.
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        • Profile picture of the author splitTest
          Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

          About 10 pages from the Cartier full page spread (which was right after the Hermes ad) is this ad...



          I'm willing to bet this ad isn't a 37%.
          Nice. Gotta figure a way to repurpose this approach
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    based on your numbers.... what about the other 70% of them that killed it for the client?

    does a baseball hitter hit 1000%?

    if they hit 300 they're probably going to the hall of fame.

    thats missing 7 out of every 10.

    is your copy killing it 70% of the time?

    is carltons? halberts? any of the other big guns?

    does an affiliate marketer buying traffic make money on all his ads?

    highly doubt it.

    they setup hundreds and find a small % of winners.

    then scale.

    ad agenices do a LOT more than make ads... they build brands, build buzz, PR, reshape and re-energize brands.

    writing ads is a small % of things.

    If these companies are loosing so much money from these retard ad agencies as you claim, they'd have no more money to invest in ads.

    makes no sense.
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    here's how big of retards these ad agencies are...

    Burger King was a private company when CP+B first took it on.

    They pushed the company to roll out the most aggressive fast-food tactics ever seen -- "innovations" such as Chicken Fries (chicken fingers turned into French fries), Meat'normous (with 47 grams of fat, the breakfast sandwich was dubbed "a heart attack on a bun"), and Flame (a flame-broiled-meat cologne) -- and created so much buzz that BK went public in 2006, boosting its annual revenue 25% since then, to $2.5 billion in 2009.

    Boosting annual revenue 25% for burger king.

    I could go on for weeks posting stuff like this from these retard ad agencies.

    It's not a 3% conversion... but I think they're doing just fine :-)
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  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    or this one....

    For Domino's, CP+B made it possible for customers to order pizza via their TiVo boxes and create custom-designed pies with their online "BFD builder" application. The restaurant chain estimated it culled as much as an additional $100 million in online revenue as a direct result.


    An additional $100 million for their client.

    not bad for retard ad agencies...
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  • A few days ago we were talking about how consistent LL Bean is with their brand. Hermès can say the same thing for ultra luxury. They've never wavered.
    Center for Brand and Product Management Wisconsin School of Business: March 2008

    What's great about Hermès is their position of focusing on making the very best is not a marketing scheme. It's been that way since the very beginning in 1837.
    The Hermès Brand Experience*|*New Retail Blog
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    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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  • The brand-advertising hate on this site is pretty ridiculous at times.

    Yeah, I know, David Ogilvy gave that speech where he said that direct response writers were better than brand agencies. But Ogilvy himself founded a brand agency. He may have incorporated some direct response techniques in his work at O&M, but the average piece he put out hardly read like some cheesy penis pill salesletter. So when he said "direct response guys are better" he was just being provocative.

    Honestly, the ad you showed is not great, but it's probably not as bad as you think it is, either. You need to realize that Rolex is marketed to a very wealthy group of image conscious people... It's not the same as selling a dieting ebook to some fat slob on a laptop in his mom's basement. We're talking the country club set here. Stick a an IM style headline in front of one of these dudes and watch how fast they roll their eyes.
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    • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
      Originally Posted by The Copy Warriors View Post

      You need to realize that Rolex is marketed to a very wealthy group of image conscious people... It's not the same as selling a dieting ebook to some fat slob on a laptop in his mom's basement. We're talking the country club set here. Stick a an IM style headline in front of one of these dudes and watch how fast they roll their eyes.

      Puh-leeze.

      I've written copy for this market, and so have a lot of others. Yes, you take a different tone, but not THAT different. For example...

      http://www.infomarketingblog.com/ima...WSJ_Letter.pdf
      Selling High Ticket: The Admiral Byrd Society Sales Letter

      Oh, and as to the "country club set" and screaming headlines...

      Just got one thing to say to you...

      Amazing Secret Discovered By
      One-Legged Golfer Adds 50 Yards
      To Your Drives, Eliminates Hooks
      and Slices... And Can Slash Up To 10 Strokes From Your Game
      Almost Overnight!

      No, Carlton wasn't necessarily writing to the uber-wealthy end of the golf market, but you get the point.
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  • Rolex used to use long copy, but as they became well-known throughout the world, they have been running ads with little to no copy.
    Why Rolex the Luxury Watch Brand Can Throw Its Marketing Into Neutral | Adweek

    But everybody knows only new money buys Rolex, said the Patek Phillipe dealer.
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    • Profile picture of the author LindyUK
      Hello,

      I think some here, even though you may be highly experienced, are missing the point.

      Those Ads are attention getting, due to their simplicity.

      They attract attention, they stand out from all the normal clutter of most advertising.

      Their also designed for Brand Recognition, not immediate sales.

      If I, taking role of a consumer opened a 2 page spread showing above Ads, they are certainly going to attract my attention. Think your fooling yourself if you think they don't. And after all, what is the core purpose of advertising? - To Attract Attention.

      Lindy
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
        Originally Posted by LindyUK View Post

        Hello,

        I think some here, even though you may be highly experienced, are missing the point.

        Those Ads are attention getting, due to their simplicity.

        They attract attention, they stand out from all the normal clutter of most advertising.

        Their also designed for Brand Recognition, not immediate sales.

        If I, taking role of a consumer opened a 2 page spread showing above Ads, they are certainly going to attract my attention. Think your fooling yourself if you think they don't. And after all, what is the core purpose of advertising? - To Attract Attention.

        Lindy
        The Rolex one has a clear message. I get it immediately.

        The Hermes one says nothing to me. It's utter confusion. I move on. No brand recognition, nothing.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          The Rolex one has a clear message. I get it immediately.

          The Hermes one says nothing to me. It's utter confusion. I move on. No brand recognition, nothing.
          You are not the target audience. (And by the way Hermès is pronounced "Er Mess") Their products are very expensive/very chic. If you don't know who they are...or where Rue du Faubourg St Honore is...you are definitely not the target audience. They don't need any copy. They don't even need the price. The target audience knows their products are top-notch...knows they cost a bomb. That spot could just have the logo and it would work. They are going for "top of mind". If you don't get it...you don't get it.

          That reminds me....Christmas is nearly here. I'm off to town to the Hermès shop.
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        • Profile picture of the author LindyUK
          Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

          The Rolex one has a clear message. I get it immediately.

          The Hermes one says nothing to me. It's utter confusion. I move on. No brand recognition, nothing.
          Hello Jason,

          It does have Logo Branding there, did you miss it?

          An it says "STYLE".

          But I'm younger than you, you might only know of Hermes as a Greek God! lol

          Lindy
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
            Originally Posted by LindyUK View Post

            Hello Jason,

            It does have Logo Branding there, did you miss it?

            An it says "STYLE".

            But I'm younger than you, you might only know of Hermes as a Greek God! lol

            Lindy
            The logo is TINY.

            Doesn't say "style" to me. It says "I'm lost. I don't know where I am or what I'm doing."

            Mal, you're right it's not my target market. I said up above that Hermes means "ties" to me. I know they've been around a long, long time. And yeah, I've never been to France. Unplug your Snob-O-Matic, will ya?

            Vic's point in posting these, I think, was to generate some discussion and show examples of ads he didn't think were good. Guess we SHOULDN'T be discussing them, then, since their message is only decipherable to the ultra-rich. And chic. Let's not forget the chic.
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            • Profile picture of the author LindyUK
              Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

              The logo is TINY.

              Doesn't say "style" to me. It says "I'm lost. I don't know where I am or what I'm doing."

              Mal, you're right it's not my target market. I said up above that Hermes means "ties" to me. I know they've been around a long, long time. And yeah, I've never been to France. Unplug your Snob-O-Matic, will ya?

              Vic's point in posting these, I think, was to generate some discussion and show examples of ads he didn't think were good. Guess we SHOULDN'T be discussing them, then, since their message is only decipherable to the ultra-rich. And chic. Let's not forget the chic.
              Hello Jason,

              It's jus one of those mysterious things, my Dad complains bout it too. The older you get the smaller they make the type in the Magazines! lol

              Hmm, an I'm really qualified to discuss these Ads, not in the ultra-rich but my Dad bought me a Porsche Carrera for Christmas a couple of years ago. I wanted a silver one cause it looks so good with my blonde hair! lol

              So chic yes, I appreciate the fine things of life but down to earth too. But I do understand how these companies target their markets.

              Lindy
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            • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Jason Kanigan View Post

              The logo is TINY.

              Doesn't say "style" to me. It says "I'm lost. I don't know where I am or what I'm doing."

              Mal, you're right it's not my target market. I said up above that Hermes means "ties" to me. I know they've been around a long, long time. And yeah, I've never been to France. Unplug your Snob-O-Matic, will ya?

              Vic's point in posting these, I think, was to generate some discussion and show examples of ads he didn't think were good. Guess we SHOULDN'T be discussing them, then, since their message is only decipherable to the ultra-rich. And chic. Let's not forget the chic.
              Oh listen to you. If you talk tripe I'll pick you up on it. You don't need to be French/go to Paris. The "snobs", as you put it, get it. They also get it when you talk "Dom Perignon" Champagne. They don't need to be told it's one of the world's best champagnes or the price. We're talking the polo set here. Or polo set wannabes. As Dave Miz says above - you ever worked in an agency on a campaign with hundreds of thousands of dollars? You think they pull this stuff out of their butt? This would have been researched. The polo-set probably think it's "lovely". It's a long way from the "How to get rich scamming clueless chumps on The Warrior Forum" type campaigns. And just so we're clear - that's not my world. I'd feel a right prat wearing any Hermès clobber. I leave that to the Parisian snobs. And...I'm doing a zillion things here. I often reply with one-liners. If you read offense into it I can't be worried about that. Geeze...I have to explain everything to you guys don't I. This was said in jest - "That reminds me....Christmas is nearly here. I'm off to town to the Hermès shop."

              There's a whole big world out there beyond your United States you know. A world that has existed long before you won your independence.
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              • Profile picture of the author max5ty
                Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

                There's a whole big world out there beyond your United States you know. A world that has existed long before you won your independence.
                True.

                And after your 9 years or so in business, you're still on here trying to drum up work from us.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
                Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

                Oh listen to you. If you talk tripe I'll pick you up on it. You don't need to be French/go to Paris. The "snobs", as you put it, get it. They also get it when you talk "Dom Perignon" Champagne. They don't need to be told it's one of the world's best champagnes or the price. We're talking the polo set here. Or polo set wannabes. As Dave Miz says above - you ever worked in an agency on a campaign with hundreds of thousands of dollars? You think they pull this stuff out of their butt? This would have been researched. The polo-set probably think it's "lovely". It's a long way from the "How to get rich scamming clueless chumps on The Warrior Forum" type campaigns. And just so we're clear - that's not my world. I'd feel a right prat wearing any Hermès clobber. I leave that to the Parisian snobs. And...I'm doing a zillion things here. I often reply with one-liners. If you read offense into it I can't be worried about that. Geeze...I have to explain everything to you guys don't I. This was said in jest - "That reminds me....Christmas is nearly here. I'm off to town to the Hermès shop."

                There's a whole big world out there beyond your United States you know. A world that has existed long before you won your independence.
                Actually I'm Canadian and moved to the US 4 years ago, from the west coast to the east.

                Been studying Ogilvy, Caples, Kennedy and more & writing since 1994. I'm aware of the outside world. I write B2B and had to learn this hyper style here.

                I'll take it and dish it out...been here awhile, Mal. And know all about you.

                BTW your WSO on creating WSOs was excellent (Rainman--no joke--those heat maps were pretty darn interesting). Thanks.
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                • Profile picture of the author Dan Ferrari
                  There's a lot of close-mindedness and dogma in this thread. Personally, I have tremendous respect for what the big agencies do.

                  Sure, some of it is garbage but a lot of it is downright brilliant, especially when you climb out of the direct-response pigeonhole and try to look at things from a different perspective.

                  Perhaps a story will help:

                  I'm a surfer.

                  My primary interest is in performance/shortboard surfing.

                  Many shortboarders can take a "holier than thou" stance against longboarders, and vice versa.

                  But I make it a point to take a longboard out a couple of times a month. I think it helps my shortboarding because you learn to generate more power when aggressively turning a longboard and I am also able to more easily diagnose issues.

                  Just today I took out a longboard and in a 2hr session identified and ironed out a problem on my backside drops that probably would have taken me weeks to figure out on a shortboard. This issue had been plaguing me on the shortboard for about the lest 10 days and by "wearing a different set of shoes" I gained an entirely new understanding into what was causing it (foot position).

                  I suppose the point is that when we take on perspectives that we might usually not, we are forced to adapt and this helps us grow and improve.

                  Two weeks ago, I tried to write some copy for my site that took a very "brand-oriented" approach. It was hard for me and I don't think the message came out very well.

                  But immediately after that, I wrote some other stuff, which was more in my "direct-response wheelhouse" and it turned out wonderfully. I was beyond pleased with it.

                  Sure, there are brand marketers and there are direct-response marketers and we do different things with different objectives.

                  But at the end of the day we are both marketers. I think the people on this forum would benefit from recognizing that, and with that recognition understanding that as marketers, these brand guys do a lot of the same work we do.

                  They set objectives for their campaigns. They learn the market. They learn the offer. They learn the client's business. They learn the prospect.

                  And if you step back for a minute and look at these ads again, I think you may understand that they demonstrate that the advertisers have - when you take into account all of those things from their side of the business - created advertising that benefits their clients.

                  I, for one, think these two ads show that the advertisers have an incredible understanding of how the target market for this sort of product thinks, and how the particular brand fits into that thinking.
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                  By Night: Gun-for-Hire, World's Least Technologically Savvy Internet Marketer

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  • Profile picture of the author Ricardo Furtado
    Yes, this the way they make their money. Of late there is a new concept, it is called media buying agencies. These agencies buy media and then ad agencies buy the ad space from them.
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    Ricardo Furtado

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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Ricardo Furtado View Post

      Yes, this the way they make their money. Of late there is a new concept, it is called media buying agencies. These agencies buy media and then ad agencies buy the ad space from them.
      Nothing new about that mate.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ricardo Furtado
        Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

        Nothing new about that mate.
        Why thank you so much for enlightening me.
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        Ricardo Furtado

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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Ricardo Furtado View Post

          Why thank you so much for enlightening me.
          Media buys have been going for at least 30 years to my knowledge.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brandgineering
    Look at the research and numbers. Ad agencies are going down the tubes quickly. Companies are hiring independent marketing companies like mine to do the work. We get better traction for the brand.

    PS: Big companies do not care about the money. They want to be treated well.
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  • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
    Mal --

    Drama aside, maybe you can explain something that's puzzled me for years.

    What's with the funny poses and weird expressions in high-fashion ads?

    The Hermès skier being one case in point, but I can dig up plenty more if need be!
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned


    Talking of Herpes...uh...I mean Hermès...check this out...this is what I want for Christmas. A carbon-fiber superyacht collaboration between our Hermès friend and an Italian designer - Wally // 118
    Wally//118 is arguably the most distinctive and fastest motor yacht in the world.
    Its three gas turbine engines produce 17,000 horsepower, propelling the 118 to more than 60 knots. With its striking vertical bow it cuts through the water with unmatched stability and control so that even at high speeds the experience is pure Wally.
    With bright and spacious interiors the 118 is a
    truly unique combination of the thrills of a high-performance sport boat with the comforts of a luxury cruising yacht.
    "The experience is pure Wally". Yes indeed.
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    • Profile picture of the author Sean Fry
      This type of advertising is actually awesome and a lot harder than it looks to pull off. I'd argue that they're more powerful than some long form sales letter due to the immediacy, the split second fast consumption, repetition and use of symbols and imagery.

      A home run branding campaign can absolutely crush it in ways a sales letter never could. When combined with a great idea and some fantastic writing, it's like magic. Dos Equis' most interesting man in the world campaign comes to mind.
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      • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
        Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

        This type of advertising is actually awesome and a lot harder than it looks to pull off. I'd argue that they're more powerful than some long form sales letter due to the immediacy, the split second fast consumption, repetition and use of symbols and imagery.
        One thing that's interesting... really high-end stuff (the Hermès & Wally World boats) puts a much greater emphasis on high-quality photography than it does on copy. You'll see a giant photo from a $50,000 (or much more) photoshoot with a paragraph of text. And the text is pretty generic. Go look around your local Saks or wander around Monaco for a while and you'll see what I mean... the copy ALL sounds like the paragraph Mal posted.

        You start to get the feeling the rich don't read, or don't believe the words. They get far more out of good pictures. (Plus, there's a social proof aspect to spending that much on photography. You simply can't fake a really expensive photo shoot.)

        Edited to add: While I'm musing on the nature of high ticket, it's important to emphasize that after a while all this stuff gets unbelievably boring. The Pateks blend into the Vacherons and the boutiques are exactly the same everywhere you go.

        This is why when, if you find yourself a really good 5 star hotel -- and I don't mean the kind where people go to "experience a 5 star hotel" -- there's a very organic, human, slightly imperfect quality to the place. It's genuinely nice, the staff are warm, everything is exceedingly discreet, and you can relax instead of keeping up the pretensions of "gotta look super rich and act snooty." There's nothing about it meant to put you in the luxury-worship "yes indeed" mindset that the Wally copywriters tried to do, because there's no need.

        The British do this "luxury through imperfection" better than almost anyone. It's all about human service, putting a person between the client and the machinery.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
        Originally Posted by Sean Fry View Post

        A home run branding campaign can absolutely crush it in ways a sales letter never could. When combined with a great idea and some fantastic writing, it's like magic. Dos Equis' most interesting man in the world campaign comes to mind.
        IMO, you've got something there.

        The Hermès watch division sales "only" increased by 17% in 2012, so in 2013 they were applying some investment to that division. Their 2013 campaign was based on the slogan "A sporting life" which at least partially explains their "somebody with walking sticks in the snow" ad.

        In the market-specific context of "You already know who and what we are, we're just reminding you" that ad makes some sense, at least to me.

        But with a "The Man in the Hathaway Shirt" or a Dos Equis "Most Interesting Man in the World" approach, perhaps it could absolutely sizzle with that particular target audience.

        The adventures of a mysterious captain of industry that happens to favor Hermès watches... that's got some potential. It's no longer just some anonymous schmuck wandering around out there in the snow, it's somebody with a far greater purpose. That could prove a bit more effective.

        With the right campaign and recognizable context, it might not even need more text, just the established context of the mysterious man himself.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Steve Hill View Post

          But with a "The Man in the Hathaway Shirt" or a Dos Equis "Most Interesting Man in the World" approach, perhaps it could absolutely sizzle with that particular target audience.
          Or it could backfire and do irreparable damage to the brand. You don't mess with a brand that's been around 200 years or whatever. "New Coke" syndrome etc.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steve Hill
            Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

            Or it could backfire and do irreparable damage to the brand. You don't mess with a brand that's been around 200 years or whatever. "New Coke" syndrome etc.
            After reviewing Hermès ads and campaigns going all the way back to 1900, it looks like you're right. Their ads have been remarkably consistent throughout, although past ads usually included prominent images of the product itself.

            It raises an interesting question: can a specific ad approach keep working forever? Perhaps the man in the snow ad is an attempt to combine the traditional Hermès ad minimalism with a new approach.

            It's got to be a real marketing challenge when growth is slowing but the advertising approach itself is not allowed to change very much.
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    • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      "The experience is pure Wally". Yes indeed.
      C'mon, we can do better than that.


      Discover Your Inner Bond Villain!

      "They Laughed When I Said I'd Rule The World... But Then They Saw My New Boat..."




      I mean, seriously. Will you look at that conference table?

      All that baby needs is a laser mounted to the bow...



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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    You're way off. The target audience for this already know what a Wally boat is. They build superyachts for the super-rich. And that my friend is a whole other world.
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    • Profile picture of the author Biz Max
      Oh I don't know, even elitist products can do monumentally better with some crafty wording...

      Signature
      Small Business Marketing & Branding Specialist
      http://BrandWhisperer.net
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    "March 1959" - nearly 55 years ago. Written by David Ogilvy. A lot has changed since then. And it's a rip. A nicely done rip but still a rip. Here's the inspiration - here's what Subtle did with it - (been posted here before) -

    Which one works better on a Smartphone or an iPad?
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  • Profile picture of the author TeamBringIt
    Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post

    Current issue of "The Economist" (BlackRock cover) inside cover (2-page) spread...



    Current rate $181,150. Ad agency gets $27,172.50.

    Could most in here write a better ad for Rolex? You betcha.

    Current issue of of "Forbes" Investment Guide 2014 inside (2-page) spread (near the front)...



    Couldn't find the spread rate, but a 1 page ad is going for $142.520... so it's around $225,000 for a spread. Ad agency is getting $33,750.

    I have to admire the salesmanship of the ad agency selling the advertiser on such a stoopid ad. Whoever at Hemes approved this ad needs to be fired.

    When I saw the ad above ... "WTF! some ad agency got $33,750 for that piece of cr@p?" ... ran through my head.
    That's why the top, copywriters in the world hate and hated big ad agencies. The first ad, looks like a ad that is based on branding. Just a picture and a logo, branding is great for established businesses. Rolex has enough, money to spend on branding. The 2nd ad (if, you want to call it that) is a total waste of money. There is nothing about that, 2nd ad that tells...what the hell this ad is about. Wasted dollars, given to big ad agencies.

    These things, have been going on for decades and shall not change anytime soon.....
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  • Profile picture of the author svedski
    Sheep is what you all are (although I haven't read every single reply in this thread).

    If what you're doing is so good, then how come those Madison Avenue ad agencies make more money than you? They're doing something right (that you aren't). I don't care if you care about "results", you still make less money (which at the end of the day...it is all about).

    Yes I am a direct response copywriter and I've also heard about things like "branding sucks" etc. But answer me this: How come Coca Cola is one of the largest and most profitable companies in the world?

    They didn't reach that level by writing direct response ads.

    Not every product is suited for direct response advertising.

    Expand your horizons, get out of your bubble. Just because you read something in a book doesn't make it true.
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    • Originally Posted by svedski View Post

      Yes I am a direct response copywriter and I've also heard about things like "branding sucks" etc. But answer me this: How come Coca Cola is one of the largest and most profitable companies in the world?
      Branding is important. So is direct response. They work together. Many of the big brands are also the biggest direct response advertisers.

      "NEW YORK When Coca-Cola first introduced its "My Coke Rewards" program in 2006, the global soft drink marketer used relatively little direct response TV advertising to peddle its products. But last year Coke significantly boosted its DRTV advertising to promote the rewards program, which steers consumers to a Web site where they can enter codes collected from purchased Coke products to exchange for free merchandise.

      According to Rob Schmidt, a managing director at Halogen, the direct response unit within Publicis Groupe's MediaVest, client Coke has used a combination of traditional and DRTV ads to promote the program, "using a drive-to-Web strategy to create loyalty and continued use of the product."

      Other buyers and sellers say that Coke is just one of many big brand marketers that for a variety of reasons has recently begun to spend more in the DRTV space, contributing to a 36 percent jump in DRTV spot spending to $4.5 billion in 2007, according to TNS Media Intelligence."
      http://www.adweek.com/news/televisio...les-soar-96745

      Since that campaign in 2007, Coca has reevaluated their entire strategy, and will be moving more dollars into content marketing:

      Coke Bets The Farm On Content Marketing
      http://contentmarketinginstitute.com...rketing-20-20/
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      Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
      - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author elmo033057
    No, no, no. You all have it wrong. They should repackage the watch ad to look more like this. What the h-e-double hockey sticks is wrong with you people???
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  • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
    (with apologies to the Aussies)

    You call that a long copy label? That's not a long copy label. This is a long copy label.



    Dr. Bronner
    Dr. Bronner's Magic Soap Label, With Footnotes
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  • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
    It's OK. After marinading your brain in enough advertising, someday you, too will find yourself overcome by the urge to show off your knowledge and top people in inane forum discussions.

    Ah well, screw it. To get back on topic, a tip of the hat to Mal for his superyacht -- looking it up I found this GOLDMINE of information on the superluxury buyer's mindset:
    Ultimate bespoke experiences for superyacht owners | Superyacht World
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    • Profile picture of the author elmo033057
      "It's OK. After marinading your brain in enough advertising, someday you, too will find yourself overcome by the urge to show off your knowledge and top people in inane forum discussions... on days when you'd promised yourself you'd take a vacation."

      Dan,

      I don't think I'll ever be able to give advice on here! You guys are heavy weights. I'll just kick back and soak up the plethora of knowledge that you can bestow upon my poor lizard brain. Ha ha !
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      • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
        Banned
        Originally Posted by elmo033057 View Post

        I don't think I'll ever be able to give advice on here! You guys are heavy weights. I'll just kick back and soak up the plethora of knowledge that you can bestow upon my poor lizard brain. Ha ha !
        Rubbish. Everyone has something to contribute. Some of us have been around a bit longer is all. Doesn't mean we're always right. I welcome your input. Just wish there were more women here to counter the chest-beating and sexism sometimes. Cheers.


        "The experience is pure Wally"
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  • Profile picture of the author elmo033057
    "Rubbish. Everyone has something to contribute. Some of us have been around a bit longer is all. Doesn't mean we're always right. I welcome your input. Just wish there were more women here to counter the chest-beating and sexism sometimes. Cheers."

    Thanks so much for the words of encouragement Mr. Mal.

    God Bless!
    ELMO
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    • Profile picture of the author OutOfThisWord
      I got a new wide screen TV for x-mas and since my old one partially worked I waited for that Michael Bolton Honda commercial to come on and I unloaded my 38 into the sucker.

      Neighbors didn't say a word and when I showed them what all the noise was about they said they want to do the same next time that spot comes on.
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Originally Posted by Mr. Subtle View Post



    This guy just looks like a cold, unprepared pretty boy. Who'd want to be in his place? :confused: Nice coat, but for an "image" ad, it just brings negative thoughts to mind.

    It's far to easy to reason against this ad strategy than for it, so all-in-all, gotta give it the thumbs down.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
    I'll give 100% of my pay for the next 20 years to anyone who can tell me how much revenue the first two examples generated for Rolex/Hermes.

    Any takers?

    $0? $100 Million?

    You don't know, and neither do the companies or agencies running the ads.

    The ONLY logical reason to advertise anything is to predictably generate a positive ROI. You put $1 in you get $3 back. You know this. It's measured. And only that which is measured can be optimized and improved.

    All effective advertising must be accountable. If you approach a company and say "I can create advertising that will generate more revenue than it costs you to run it" - and you can't track that or prove that - you have no business spending someone else's ad budget.

    Branding is great, sure. But it's a byproduct of direct response. Branding has no call to action. Branding has no accountability. Branding is impossible to measure. Branding does nothing to convince a prospect to take action now. And anyone who pushes branding alone as the holy grail of advertising is guilty of marketing negligence.

    Sure, reinforcing top of mind is great. But why not do both?

    You don't have to write a biz-opp sales letter to boost the response of that Rolex ad by 1,000%...

    ...Use the same image and do something like...

    "For Those Who Won't Settle For Less Than The Best: It's Not Easy To Improve On The World's Finest Watch - But You Asked And We Delivered, Here's 7 Ways We've Revolutionized What It Means To Wear A Rolex"....

    -Blah blah benefits.

    Available only in the new "xxxxx" series. Only 10,000 hand-crafted watches will be produced. To see if you qualify to own the best of the best, go to Rolex.com/apply. But hurry, you must be pre-approved before 2/2/14 to be considered for this exclusive offer."

    That's not perfect, I wrote it in 3 minutes. But at the least you could track ROI. You could get people to take action. Hell you could use that offer and slap a $500k price tag on it - track the ROI and improve branding at the same time.

    I guarantee that it'd outpull the example. Because I could freakin' measure it. It could only pull two impressions to the URL but I'd know it did something.
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    • Profile picture of the author DanSharp
      Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh View Post

      Branding is impossible to measure.
      Don't be so sure. I just posted about this:
      http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post8832252
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      • Profile picture of the author Scott Murdaugh
        Originally Posted by DanSharp View Post

        Don't be so sure. I just posted about this:
        http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ml#post8832252
        Don't get me wrong, I love branding.

        A client of mine runs a retail chain that deals in big brands, household names with brand recognition along the same lines as Rolex or Honda. The strength of those brands is a tremendous marketing asset - it's invaluable - you literally can't put a price tag on it.

        100% of their marketing budget goes into direct response. Things like...

        -Direct mail to existing customers.

        -Email marketing.

        -Lead generation: Opt-in pages offering related reports/discounts. Or "call now and instantly save x%".

        -TV/Radio promoting limited time events, 3 day sales, one day only, etc.

        -Followup sequences to encourage testimonials, referrals, word of mouth advertising and increasing customer LTV.

        We can only track about 65% of new customers directly to any given campaign. We use tracking numbers to monitor calls and tie leads into sales. On those sales we can track the buyer from the specific lead source and tie a specific ROI to each campaign. And we can constantly measure and optimize our marketing.

        For the other 35% or so, we're in the dark. People are exposed to the ads, but aren't ready to buy, but they remember us a few months later when they are. Some people just walk in - we can't track where they came from. We have the sales people ask but that's unreliable, most of the customers will just say "we see your ads all the time" - which doesn't help when we've got 20 different campaigns going across a dozen different media channels at any given time.

        But the majority of that 35% is aware of the brand as a direct byproduct of our direct response stuff. I love branding, it's awesome. But direct response and branding don't have to be mutually exclusive.

        Yes, you can somewhat measure the impact of branding. But it's an educated guess at best. You can't reliably measure it to an exact ROI per campaign. And that which can't be measured can't be improved.

        And I don't care how strong any given brand is, the only time it matters, when something gets sold, there is direct response at work.

        Someone mentioned Coke earlier. They're huge because they have distribution. They use a lot of direct response tactics to gain that distribution. McDonald's doesn't choose to carry Coke products over Pepsi because of the brand alone. There are a lot of other incentives - and a lot of selling going on to acquire and maintain those relationships.

        Another example - Sweepstakes, Rewards & More | My Coke Rewards - think that's for branding? No, that exists solely to get people to keep buying Coke. They're offering incentives for a very specific desired response, people's business.

        Ever shopped for a Rolex? Think the sales guy is just going to point to one and ask if you'd like it? Not if he's good. He's going to be able to tell you anything you want to know about every different model in the store. How they're manufactured. What materials are used and why. How they're put together.

        And if he's been in business for more than a month, he's going to have a strong reason why to buy now. And he's going to upsell you. And he's going to have enough product literature for you to read for hours. And once you buy he's going to use direct response strategies to convince you to buy from him over and over again.

        Apple is another example - the epitome of an amazing brand. So why the need to use product launches and events for everything they put out, people would buy anyway right? Because events work.

        Steve Jobs was amazing at selling from the stage. Why does AT&T bribe you with an $800 phone for only $100 for signing a 2 year contract? Classic example of pitching the premium and using a self-liquidating offer to generate revenue in the back-end.

        McDonald's is another great example. Their profit centers are fries, soda and franchises. Everything else they sell are just a self-liquidating offer to funnel people to their profit centers. Their up-sells "would you like fries with that/supersize your meal (more soda and fries) for just $1 more?" are no coincidence.

        My point is that branding is powerful. But direct response is what drives sales, they go hand-in-hand.

        I agree with Mr. Subtle that those ads are laughable.

        And LOL at the idea that just because a company is successful it doesn't mean that they can't make horrible marketing decisions. If that were the case we'd all own Apple Pippin's instead of Xbox's, we'd all be rocking out on Zune's and drinking Crystal Pepsi while having this discussion on Myspace and browsing Digg while waiting for reply notifications to come through on our Galaxy Gear watches.

        *This reply isn't directed at anyone in particular - I just quoted Dan because he brought up a valid point that I wanted to address.
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        Over $30 Million In Marketing Data And A Decade Of Consistently Generating Breakthrough Results - Ask How My Unique Approach To Copy Typically Outsells Traditional Ads By Up To 29x Or More...

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  • Profile picture of the author pizzacashmon3y
    LOL those ads are complete crap. its funny that when you go higher up the corporate world, people are still selling crap... just for more dollars
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