Cant I just give you half of my product?

15 years ago

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

The marketing, that being the traffic generation, the sales copy, the back end development, the launch process etc etc, is what gets that product in peoples hands.

And without that product, what exactly are you putting in their hands?

Seems like 50/50 is the right split to me.

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Chris Ramsey

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And without that product, what exactly are you putting in their hands?

Seems like 50/50 is the right split to me.

I agree with Brandon. As a marketer I get all sorts of requests for 'half the earnings'... but with the massive amounts of effort that I will have to put in to make it work, I just don't see the benefit. I can get a client to pay me a few grand to write a sales letter and give him a few marketing pointers... or I can work two solid weeks without pay in hopes that people will like the product.

I would rather help a client make huge amounts of money. If I'm going to work on a 'commission' basis, it'll be for my own products that I'm passionate about.

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John_S

15 years ago

A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen.

Usually the products stink. If it isn't within the product you ain't gonna write about it.

Marketing is about product design. Because, as the great Bill Bernbach said, "The magic is in the product," not in the copywriter's pen. "Advertising doesn't create a product advantage. It can only convey it...No matter how skillful you are, you can't invent a product advantage that doesn't exist."

The reason 50/50 deals stink is the developer knows squat about marketing and developed an inadequate product -- and then fell in love with it. So it's not going to change much.

Otherwise, if they would agree to redevelop and redesign the product it's not so bad a deal. But they won't. What they want is not marketing. It's to change the nature of reality and humanity rather than the product.

That's why they haven't money to pay -- the product isn't earning it. Beware the company offering half the money they've proven they can't earn.

Thanks
1 reply

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BrandonLee

15 years ago

I'm the world's 3rd worst copywriter, so that's not what I have offered up until this point. Recently I brought on a copywriter to partner with me, and he is very well regarded having written the sales letters to a number of top CB Products, so I think that my ability to generate sales will go up greatly...but up to this point I've had to hire out copy, or simply rely upon my launch process so that the copy doesnt even matter....but even with the best launch process in the world...it won't live up to half of its potential without good copy.

And I'm not here to say product is not important at all. It is, and I won't work with someone who I think has a crappy product (for example if someone is teaching traders how to make money in the stock market, but has never done it for themselves...I would regard that person as not having much to offer, and so I would not work with them.)

Originally Posted by John_S

A gifted product is mightier than a gifted pen.

Usually the products stink. If it isn't within the product you ain't gonna write about it.

Marketing is about product design. Because, as the great Bill Bernbach said, "The magic is in the product," not in the copywriter's pen. "Advertising doesn't create a product advantage. It can only convey it...No matter how skillful you are, you can't invent a product advantage that doesn't exist."

The reason 50/50 deals stink is the developer knows squat about marketing and developed an inadequate product -- and then fell in love with it. So it's not going to change much.

Otherwise, if they would agree to redevelop and redesign the product it's not so bad a deal. But they won't. What they want is not marketing. It's to change the nature of reality and humanity rather than the product.

That's why they haven't money to pay -- the product isn't earning it. Beware the company offering half the money they've proven they can't earn.

Thanks

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BrandonLee

15 years ago

Well, I refuse to only work for a retainer or an upfront amount too. If Im going to be involved with any project there is an upfront fee and an ongoing % of what I do. I don't sleep well knowing I was paid $10,000 to make someone millions of dollars.

Originally Posted by scheda

I agree with Brandon. As a marketer I get all sorts of requests for 'half the earnings'... but with the massive amounts of effort that I will have to put in to make it work, I just don't see the benefit. I can get a client to pay me a few grand to write a sales letter and give him a few marketing pointers... or I can work two solid weeks without pay in hopes that people will like the product.

I would rather help a client make huge amounts of money. If I'm going to work on a 'commission' basis, it'll be for my own products that I'm passionate about.

Thanks

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by scheda

with the massive amounts of effort that I will have to put in to make it work ... two solid weeks without pay

Look at it from my perspective.

You say: "I don't want half your profits - I want $X."

I hear: "This will almost certainly produce less than $2X in profit."

If I want better than that, aren't you clearly the wrong person to do it?

As someone once said, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Thanks
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BrandonLee

15 years ago

Well from a successful marketers point of view though, we will feel the same about you. Most of us have people you can call on the phone, people we have made a lot of money for. Your not having enough faith in your product to back it up with some money, that makes me feel the same. Look, I'm always willing to make my intitial payment an advance against future royalties, but what Im not interested in is having any amount of ownership in the product/company of an unproven person. Sorry..and most other professionals with feel the same.

I'm also not saying a 50/50 deal will never ever happen, I just did one. But that only happened because the person has been proven again and again to be a winner, so I don't feel as though i'm taking any chance at all.

Brandon

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Look at it from my perspective.

You say: "I don't want half your profits - I want ."

I hear: "This will almost certainly produce less than $2X in profit."

If I want better than that, aren't you clearly the wrong person to do it?

As someone once said, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Thanks

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Hesster

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Look at it from my perspective.

You say: "I don't want half your profits - I want ."

I hear: "This will almost certainly produce less than $2X in profit."

If I want better than that, aren't you clearly the wrong person to do it?

As someone once said, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Ever heard the old saying, "a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"?

People rarely have the ability to objectively evaluate their own work. What if the product flops for reasons totally independent of the copy? Basically, with deals like this, you're asking a copywriter to write on spec, and you're asking them to trust you that you'll actually report the profits honestly. Half of the profits when profits are zero is zero, and the copywriter did all their work for no pay.

The only way I would take such a deal is with an established company that was set up to pay residuals, and even then I'd want a partial payment up front. Like maybe half a normal fee and then a percentage on the back end.

Thanks

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BrandonLee

15 years ago

I dont know what the copy writers here do, so please don't think I'm speaking for them: I'm not!
I never say I want $X. I say, you need to give me $X to prove that your serious. d
$X is going to be my advance payment against future royalties. You will be paying me forever, period.
If our agreement is $10,000 upfront plus 1/3 of future profits, I will ALWAYS refund you the $10,000 if you don't make AT LEAST $33,000 to cover my advance.
Now, most copy writers are not in a position to do this simply because they dont control anything beyond your copy. In my case, I actually control everything BUT the product, and so I am in a position to say if I dont earn back that retainer, I've not done my job.

In the case of a copy writer though, they really have no control over anything BUT the letter. They have nothing to do with the product funnel you create, they don't control the JVs you get, they don't control how you put the launch together, how you handle traffic generation etc etc.

Brandon

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Look at it from my perspective.

You say: "I don't want half your profits - I want ."

I hear: "This will almost certainly produce less than $2X in profit."

If I want better than that, aren't you clearly the wrong person to do it?

As someone once said, "I find your lack of faith disturbing."

Thanks

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BrandonLee 15 years ago

Well for example I've worked with one guy who was making about $20,000 per month before I started to work with him. He'd be stuck at that point for several years. The first month I worked with him he brought in $28,000, the second $44,000, the third $84,0000 and since then the worst month he has had he still brought in six figures for the month. Jee...what exactly did I bring to him? He's thrilled to be giving me half, and he had something that was doing very well before I even got there.
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BrandonLee

15 years ago

In terms of the product, what you don't seem to understand is that product creation is by far the easiest part of the puzzle. I have created several myself, and I've also hired out. When I hire out, I can find someone on a message board or on CL and pay them $1000 for an awesome product, which I own 100% of. Can you see now why offering me half of your business, which has not even been tested to be worthwhile yet, is no real offer at all? If you come to me with a business that's already doing something, then maybe we will have something to talk about..but if all you have is an idea.........

Originally Posted by CDarklock

And without that product, what exactly are you putting in their hands?

Seems like 50/50 is the right split to me.

Thanks
1 reply

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

In terms of the product, what you don't seem to understand is that product creation is by far the easiest part of the puzzle.

Have you ever even wondered whether your "easy" product creation process might be what makes marketing those products hard?

After all, it's much harder to sell crap.

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BrandonLee

15 years ago

No in fact I never have because I only work with people who are already doing at least $10,000 per month before I start working with them, and they all have excellent products. I won't put my name on crap because it makes me feel like a POS if I manipulte people into buying a crappy product (which can be done, but I leave that to other people)

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Have you ever even wondered whether your "easy" product creation process might be what makes marketing those products hard?

After all, it's much harder to sell crap.

Thanks

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BrandonLee 15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

After all, it's much harder to sell crap.

I agree with that 100%, that's why I won't sell crap. It's not worth the extra time it takes me to sell it, that's why I wont. Plus like I said above it would make me feel like crap if I was pushing bad products on people.

If you could take your business from doing $15,000 to $20,000 per month to doing $100,000 per month in a bad month without any extra effort what so ever on your part, what would that be worth to you?

That's what a good marketer will do for you. Doing things like that for people's websites and products is why Jeff Walker has mentioned my success in his marketing material for his upcoming ($25,000)event where he teaches people to do PLF for other people: Because I'm doing it, and I'm doing it in a pretty big way.

Brandon
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BrandonLee

15 years ago

I'll give you an example of marketing a great product, and turning one around.

I have a friend who is very well regarded in the trading industry. She gives seminars for the Chicago Merc, the NYSE, speaks at all of the expo's. She's been on CNBC, CNN, Fox News etc. Her $1497 product had a 3% refund rate (THREE PERCENT REFUNDS), and she had glowing testimonials from nearly all of her buyers.

In spite of all of this, her marketing was absolutly terrible. She was making about $12,000 a month.

Her product is now $1997 and she still has refund rates down around 5%, but because her marketing is actually good now, she's bringing in around $30,000 on most months, and $150,000 to $200,000 on months when she does a launch.

She used to think that the product was the most important thing too.

Brandon
PS. I'm not the one doing her marketing, when she approached me I had too many other things going on so I send her to a friend of mine. She paid him $10,000 upfront plus 50% of the improved bottom line. How happy do you think she is? In the past she has hired a number of $300 to $1000 "professionals" and go nowhere with it. She finally decided to just do it right, and I'm sure she now regrets not having done that 4 years ago when she first started.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

She used to think that the product was the most important thing too.

I don't. I think the product and the marketing are of equal value. So if you do a sweat-for-equity deal, 50/50 is the right split.

I don't mean to say you should do them all. I don't even mean to say you should do any of them. If you don't want to do sweat-for-equity, then don't do it! I've been bitten by that myself several times; sometimes you sweat a lot, and your equity ends up being a share of nothing. Or, worse, of a debt. I've had both happen to me.

But if you're going to partner with someone on a launch, the idea that you're somehow due more than half just fundamentally offends me.

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BrandonLee

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

But if you're going to partner with someone on a launch, the idea that you're somehow due more than half just fundamentally offends me.

I should try to make my point more clear.

I've very rarely taken half, in fact in most cases I've taken less. However, a retainer is almost always paid because to me a retainer shows that someone is serious.
The retainer is always made back, because since I control the marketing from A-Z, if I cant make it back I really don't have an excuse now do I?
So as an example, lets say a guy is making $15,000 a month on average right now. In most cases I don't get to touch that original 15K, and I might get anything from $10,000 to $15,000 as an upfront payment, and 50% of any improvement. However, I wouldnt start to get anything at all out of that 50 until I have accounted for $30,000 in extra profit.
Now again I don't think that many copywriters could do this because they can't control your launch, what type of traffic and partners you bring to the offer, the site design etc. Since I can control all of that (or I'd not have signed up in the first place) then I'm perfectly fine doing it this way, which btw is how I think all the copywriters should operate too...they would make a lot more money if they did.

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

So as an example, lets say a guy is making $15,000 a month on average right now.

Let me give you a different strategy.

Let's say a guy is making nothing.

You agree to market his product for half the profits.

You're the third-worst copywriter in the world.

You write copy for his product. It sucks. His product is crap anyway. Nobody buys it. You make nothing.

Or maybe there are some sales, but the guy rips you off and doesn't pay you. Whatever.

Precisely how long are you going to stay the third-worst copywriter in the world?

What are the chances you might get good enough, after a few dozen of these, to launch any old piece of crap profitably - without much work at all?

Forget the money. Don't work for money. Work for experience.

Now take everything you learned, and write it all down. (Product creation is easy.) Market the living shit out of it. You've got dozens of real products you really launched that taught you these lessons.

And... wait for it...

You've got a ready-made stable of affiliates to sell your product! All those guys you helped out when they had nothing? They'll jump at the chance to help you. Especially the ones who ripped you off - don't even say anything about it, just ask them a favour. They'll feel like such utter garbage for ripping you off when you tried to help them, they'll work like hell to make up for it.

What do you think? Is there, perhaps, a huge community of online marketers who'd throw money at you all day long for something like this?

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BrandonLee

15 years ago

You pretty much nailed my business strategy as what you wrote is exactly what I do.
I'll always be the world's third worst copywriter, but that's ok coz my partner is the best (currently #1 product on clickbank converting over 10%)
Brandon

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Let me give you a different strategy.

Let's say a guy is making nothing.

You agree to market his product for half the profits.

You're the third-worst copywriter in the world.

You write copy for his product. It sucks. His product is crap anyway. Nobody buys it. You make nothing.

Or maybe there are some sales, but the guy rips you off and doesn't pay you. Whatever.

Precisely how long are you going to stay the third-worst copywriter in the world?

What are the chances you might get good enough, after a few dozen of these, to launch any old piece of crap profitably - without much work at all?

Forget the money. Don't work for money. Work for experience.

Now take everything you learned, and write it all down. (Product creation is easy.) Market the living shit out of it. You've got dozens of real products you really launched that taught you these lessons.

And... wait for it...

You've got a ready-made stable of affiliates to sell your product! All those guys you helped out when they had nothing? They'll jump at the chance to help you. Especially the ones who ripped you off - don't even say anything about it, just ask them a favour. They'll feel like such utter garbage for ripping you off when you tried to help them, they'll work like hell to make up for it.

What do you think? Is there, perhaps, a huge community of online marketers who'd throw money at you all day long for something like this?

Thanks
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

You pretty much nailed my business strategy as what you wrote is exactly what I do.

That seems to contradict what you said previously:

Originally Posted by BrandonLee

I only work with people who are already doing at least $10,000 per month before I start working with them

It's absolutely critical, in the strategy I described, to start from nothing. If you're not starting from nothing, you're not using that strategy.

This is one of those "people don't trust copywriters" moments. It seems like you're saying whatever you think makes you look best, instead of just being honest. It's okay if we disagree; that happens all the time.

Some of that's because I've been in business 23 years, and I've seen the repercussions of certain behaviour firsthand. In my world, when someone has nothing and you help them anyway, they will remember you forever. That's a great source of continued business, referral business, and free publicity.

Some of it's because my business has been typical brick-and-mortar business, not internet business, and sometimes I just don't quite "get" some of the subtleties of internet business today. People on the internet frequently have no loyalty, cheat with impunity, steal at the drop of a hat, and switch companies over $2 a month.

So maybe if you help someone with their free product launch, they'll simply not care and hire a new marketer for their next product (which is little more than a remix of the current) using their profits from this one. The new marketer will be flat-rate work-for-hire, and get no royalties. Then your "partner" will discontinue the product, and you get nothing else from him ever. Maybe the schadenfreude motive is too strong in this industry.

I'd rather not think that, myself. I prefer, even after 23 years in business, to retain some faith in humanity.

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David Raybould

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

In my world, when someone has nothing and you help them anyway, they will remember you forever.

Unfortunately, on the internet, it's often not like that. And that's what Brandon is talking about here.

As an example:

I was approached by a guy at the beginning of this year. He needed a writer for his salesletter. He was a nice guy going through some tough times and he'd put together a good product. He NEEDED a big hit.

But he couldn't afford to pay me. He'd just lost his job, and to boot, his little girl was sick and the medication was cleaning the family out.

He didn't ask me to, but i did the letter for free. And I don't mean I just churned out any old crap, I gave him the full package. Spent weeks on it... the same service my clients get when they hire me for $6k, $8k, whatever.

I sweated blood over it, the same as I do with every project.

And guess how grateful he was?

He was so grateful that as soon as he got the finished letter, he stopped answering my emails... I've had no contact from him since, and when I check his URL, i see he hasn't even bothered to put the letter up.

That's how grateful people are in the online business world. Not all of them, sure, but enough of them to make things like that commonplace.

I'm pretty sure any good copywriter in here has a similar story to that...

And THAT is why we don't give people the benefit of the doubt.

Brandon's absolutely right- Product launch, salesletter, emails, whatever:

The client needs to be prepared to invest some cash to show how serious they are... that's just how it is.

-David Raybould

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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by David Raybould

I'm pretty sure any good copywriter in here has a similar story to that...

One of these days, perhaps I will tell you about the day I lost three million dollars... and was glad it happened.

But you'll probably read it in a sales letter, because the most important part of any sales letter is a compelling story!

And if I do it right, that sales letter will ultimately make more than $3 million, which will turn into another story.

Which I can put in a sales letter...

Get the picture?

Writers don't complain about the hard knocks they experience, because in the end, it's all just material. Take risks. Get stories. Lather, rinse, repeat.

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David Raybould

15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

Which I can put in a sales letter...

Get the picture?

Writers don't complain about the hard knocks they experience, because in the end, it's all just material. Take risks. Get stories. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Of course I get the picture. I write salesletters for a living.

But that has nothing to do with the discussion about taking monies upfront as a show of good faith on the part of the client - regardless of whether equity is involved...

My account wasn't a complaint... it was an illustration why Brandon's right to ask for money upfront... and why the rest of us are too.

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by David Raybould

My account wasn't a complaint... it was an illustration why Brandon's right to ask for money upfront... and why the rest of us are too.

Saying you're right implies that everyone else is wrong. My point is that it's not wrong to do things differently, and it could be right.

But the fundamental idea here hasn't been that you and Brandon do business a particular way, it's that everybody should do business that way, and nobody should be asking you to do it differently.

I take issue with that. You're more than welcome to do business any way you like... but so is everyone else.
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BrandonLee 15 years ago

Originally Posted by CDarklock

One of these days, perhaps I will tell you about the day I lost three million dollars... and was glad it happened.

Aside from my kids the happiest day of my life was when we sold Teach Me To Trade to Russ Whitney for $7million and I lost $1.2million. I was so glad to be rid of that beast there are not words to explain it.
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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Originally Posted by David Raybould

Unfortunately, on the internet, it's often not like that. And that's what Brandon is talking about here.

As an example:

I was approached by a guy at the beginning of this year. He needed a writer for his salesletter. He was a nice guy going through some tough times and he'd put together a good product. He NEEDED a big hit.

But he couldn't afford to pay me. He'd just lost his job, and to boot, his little girl was sick and the medication was cleaning the family out.

He didn't ask me to, but i did the letter for free. And I don't mean I just churned out any old crap, I gave him the full package. Spent weeks on it... the same service my clients get when they hire me for $6k, $8k, whatever.

I sweated blood over it, the same as I do with every project.

And guess how grateful he was?

He was so grateful that as soon as he got the finished letter, he stopped answering my emails... I've had no contact from him since, and when I check his URL, i see he hasn't even bothered to put the letter up.

That's how grateful people are in the online business world. Not all of them, sure, but enough of them to make things like that commonplace.

I'm pretty sure any good copywriter in here has a similar story to that...

And THAT is why we don't give people the benefit of the doubt.

Brandon's absolutely right- Product launch, salesletter, emails, whatever:

The client needs to be prepared to invest some cash to show how serious they are... that's just how it is.

-David Raybould

David, being the loving, trusting soul he is, gave someone a shot... and they ignored him.

This is why I don't do "spec" work... because if someone really wants that salesletter, then can pay me via credit card.

I don't expect handouts, and I don't give them.

It's a wonderful, utopian idea to believe that people will pay you back "when they can"... but the reality of the situation is that if people need to pay you, they'll find a way.

And (I expect) that's why pretty much any good copywriter doesn't work "spec".

-Dan

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BrandonLee 15 years ago

I guess I will try to be more clear.
I think your right about a lot of stuff online btw, and it stinks.
I was replying to the last part of your post

You've got a ready-made stable of affiliates to sell your product! All those guys you helped out when they had nothing? They'll jump at the chance to help you. Especially the ones who ripped you off - don't even say anything about it, just ask them a favour. They'll feel like such utter garbage for ripping you off when you tried to help them, they'll work like hell to make up for it.

What do you think? Is there, perhaps, a huge community of online marketers who'd throw money at you all day long for something like this?

And I said that is basically my business model.
When someone comes to me they get a business in a box more or less. I have relationships with JVs and affiliates in place, I have the copy taken care of through my partner, traffic with SEO and PPC, and the launch. No one part is more important vs the others, they all work together to make a very powerful unit.

I won't say I've never worked on spec either. Most of my work has been in the finance and trading industry, and with the larger companies I've found it not very common for them to want to pay a lot up front for me to launch their new products, especially the ones who have traffic, copy etc already in place. In those cases I'll sign a contract and work with the company, but only because they are well established, well known and I ask around to see that I will get paid.
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BrandonLee

15 years ago

I want to just say one last thing here. I don't want to make it seem like I think product creation is not important, or that you don't need a good product. I think it is a critical piece of the puzzle if you want to do anything that will last for any period of time. If you sell a crappy product, and you have good marketing, the only thing that's going to happen is your going to spread a very bad name for yourself very quickly. No fun!
However, anyone who thinks that quality marketing comes cheap is nuts. I was recently speaking with a guy who has worked with Paul Tudor Jones (a billionaire hedge fund manager), this guy is himself worth around $200million. He wants to release a trading program.

Anyway this is a $25,000 product. I was asking him for $10,000 up front and then 25% of the profits. He ended up not going with me because he was uncomfortable that the most expensive product I've ever sold was $5000. The person he ended up going with was paid $50,000 up front and 25% of the ongoing profits.

Understand that this guy has the resources to nearly gaurantee the success of the product. He has testimonials and endorsements from the very biggest names in the industry, and he is also willing to spend over $100,000 to hire the best PPC people, and he plans to create a commercial to put it on CNBC etc. This will be a huge product. Even with that being the case, he understands that not many people worth working for are going to do so on spec.

Am I saying you have to pay that much money? No, not at all, you can get a good job done for less...however your not going to get a good job done for you as cheaply as most dreamers dream about having it done.

Brandon

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howdoyou

15 years ago

[DELETED]

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David Raybould 15 years ago

Originally Posted by howdoyou

be specific in your sales letters, and other forms of advertisement. There are a lot of creative ways to keep questions to a minimum.

Did you even read the thread? That makes absolutely no sense.
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- Tyrus Antas 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by David Raybould
  
  Did you even read the thread? That makes absolutely no sense.
  
  It might have something to do with this:
  http://www.warriorforum.com/main-int...ckroaches.html
  
  Tyrus
  
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Tom2009 15 years ago

howdoyo, i guess you are trying just to add posts ... but you should at least see what is about in a thread.. before posting..no? Otherwise it might look spammy.. and you might get banned...
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fancyrae

15 years ago

My two cents-- What I've noticed as a copywriter and marketing consultant is that most people who are trying to sell their new products or services have no idea if there is even a profitable market for what they've created. They don't know their audience OR their competition. Hence, they've invested a lot of time and money in a pool that may not have any water in it. (That's a twist on Howie Jacobson's "how deep is the pool?" test for keyword research.) They created a product without collecting data. That's often a recipe for disaster...or at least disappointment.

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DougBarger

15 years ago

I get sick of seeing how the uneducated and uniniated try to 'weasel out' when it comes time to pay the copywriter.

It's ridiculous. Anyone who isn't prepared to invest in their business with the purchase of their salesletter has no business taking up the copywriter's time.

NO you can't get it for free. NO you can't get it for cheaper. NO you can't threaten to go somewhere else and have the copywriter back down on their price.

You don't go into the gasoline station and haggle with the clerk on a lower price per gallon.

You pay the fee first and then you get the gasoline.

It's just like a criminal, these people who try to "haggle", "weasel" and "wiggle" before paying for their salesletter and I encourage every copywriter here
to respect the boundaries of your prices because yes, it's great when you can
be personable and have healthy relationships with your clients.

But if it's mistaken for an opportunity to pay less, then sorry, business is business.

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Cant I just give you half of my product?

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