a great Gary Halbert story... and really cool copy tip....

20 replies
I got an email earlier from Doberman Dan, who used to
work with Gary Halbert.

Dan wrote a neat little story about how the Prince of Print
used to do some of his best work.

I've included it here because of a couple lessons it contains.

One, stories are a VERY powerful way to get information
across to your reader... while their defenses are down.

And Dan's story about Gary goofing off most of the
day was pretty interesting.

And two, sometimes your best work as a copywriter
can come after completely separating yourself from a project
and taking some time off to let it all "marinate" in your
subconscious.

Dan's tip at the end of the email, about taking a day
off to spend with your family, having fun, and goofing
off can be JUST what you need to get the brain churning
out great copy ideas.

Anyways, just wanted to share it for those 2 reasons..
the email was LONG which is why I attached it as a word
doc, and just out of respect, I kept Dan's offer link
at the end.
#cool #copy #gary #great #halbert #story #tip
  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Shawn, I think this email copy was pretty bad. It could have been so much better.

    Here's why I say that.

    I want you to imagine something for me. I want you to imagine this email copy is a movie script. You're watching the movie on your big screen TV from your Lazy Boy recliner.

    So while you're doing that in your mind's eye, I want to point out the big flaw.

    THERE'S NO DRAMA.

    (Which kinda defeats the purpose of talking about stories, doesn't it?)

    This copy could been totally structured as a Mr. Myagi/Danielson or Yoda/Luke Skywalker relationship rollercoaster.

    There. Now that I've said it, it's easy to see how the copy could be improved, yes?

    - Rick Duris
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061226].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
      Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

      Shawn, I think this email copy was pretty bad. It could have been so much better.

      Here's why I say that.

      I want you to imagine something for me. I want you to imagine this email copy is a movie script. You're watching the movie on your big screen TV from your Lazy Boy recliner.

      So while you're doing that in your mind eye's, I want to point out the big flaw.

      THERE'S NO DRAMA.

      (Which kinda defeats the purpose of talking about stories, doesn't it?)

      This copy could been totally structured as a Mr. Myagi/Danielson or Yoda/Luke Skywalker relationship rollercoaster.

      There. Now that I've said it, it's easy to see how the copy could be improved, yes?

      - Rick Duris
      I disagree, Rick.

      Dan's list is aimed at marketers... and any marketer worth their salt knows who Gary Halbert is.

      Take this copy and look at it as a documentary.

      But instead of it being about WW2, it's about delving into Gary Halbert's technique of writing copy.

      No doubt a topic that everyone on the list would like to know about...

      So...

      While I think the drama route would've been equally good - I don't think it was necessary.
      Signature

      Wealthcopywriter.com :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061255].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
        Originally Posted by Chriswrighto View Post

        I disagree, Rick.

        Dan's list is aimed at marketers... and any marketer worth their salt knows who Gary Halbert is.

        Take this copy and look at it as a documentary.

        But instead of it being about WW2, it's about delving into Gary Halbert's technique of writing copy.

        No doubt a topic that everyone on the list would like to know about...

        So...

        While I think the drama route would've been equally good - I don't think it was necessary.
        Wow, an email designed to reveal the power of storytelling is devoid of drama. And you equate it not to a movie, but to a documentary.

        It's because marketers, hands down, prefer documentaries over movies. Especially ones with Gary Halbert in them.

        Keeping going, Chris. I love the hole you're digging for yourself.

        - Rick Duris

        PS: I'm not picking on you, Dan or Shawn. I'm looking at the copy clinically and saying to myself, "Dan missed the boat."
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061411].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

      Shawn, I think this email copy was pretty bad. It could have been so much better.

      Here's why I say that.

      I want you to imagine something for me. I want you to imagine this email copy is a movie script. You're watching the movie on your big screen TV from your Lazy Boy recliner.

      So while you're doing that in your mind's eye, I want to point out the big flaw.

      THERE'S NO DRAMA.

      (Which kinda defeats the purpose of talking about stories, doesn't it?)

      This copy could been totally structured as a Mr. Myagi/Danielson or Yoda/Luke Skywalker relationship rollercoaster.

      There. Now that I've said it, it's easy to see how the copy could be improved, yes?

      - Rick Duris
      Hey Rick!

      Yeah... you'll see that I left my thoughts about the actual email copy itself out of the post. Honestly, there was some good and bad about the
      actual email itself.

      Some could argue it was too long, not enough drama, etc....

      I just got a kick out of the story... because I saw myself in it!

      And I think that's where what Chris said makes a lot of sense... where since it was sent to marketers who know Gary, maybe they could relate to that story and not need the roller coaster effect.

      There have been hundreds of times where I knew I had a project to do... yet I just goofed off for 3 to 4 days... KEEPING the project details in mind.

      Then, on the 5th day or so... it would just flow and all come together.

      But yeah, I left the email critique out of it :-)

      Because honestly, I have no idea how it did... if it filled his paypal account... more power to him.

      But yeah, I tend to start my emails out with a problem... and then use the story to talk about how it was solved. I guess that could be the drama part of it?
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061393].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
        Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

        Hey Rick!

        Yeah... you'll see that I left my thoughts about the actual email copy itself out of the post. Honestly, there was some good and bad about the
        actual email itself.

        Some could argue it was too long, not enough drama, etc....

        I just got a kick out of the story... because I saw myself in it!

        And I think that's where what Chris said makes a lot of sense... where since it was sent to marketers who know Gary, maybe they could relate to that story and not need the roller coaster effect.

        There have been hundreds of times where I knew I had a project to do... yet I just goofed off for 3 to 4 days... KEEPING the project details in mind.

        Then, on the 5th day or so... it would just flow and all come together.

        But yeah, I left the email critique out of it :-)

        Because honestly, I have no idea how it did... if it filled his paypal account... more power to him.

        But yeah, I tend to start my emails out with a problem... and then use the story to talk about how it was solved. I guess that could be the drama part of it?
        I'm glad you saw yourself in it, because I was thinking empathy building was lacking as well. But, there was some in there.

        Just for the record: I hope it did exceedingly well for him. I was just disappointed in the email itself.

        Happens to the best of us.

        Betcha if he did a rewrite, it would rock.

        - Rick Duris
        Signature
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061441].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
          Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

          Wow, an email designed to reveal the power of storytelling is devoid of drama. And you equate it not to a movie, but to a documentary.

          It's because marketers, hands down, prefer documentaries over movies. Especially ones with Gary Halbert in them.

          Keeping going, Chris. I love the hole you're digging for yourself.

          - Rick Duris

          PS: I'm not picking on you, Dan or Shawn. I'm looking at the copy clinically and saying to myself, "Dan missed the boat."
          Story telling is only an aspect to what the email is teaching.

          As far as I'm concerned, a story is there to connect with the reader.

          Did I connect? Yep.

          That's why I'm saying it needn't be made dramatic...

          I've heard/read that story at least 5 times, and yet I still read to the bottom... because I connect with it.

          And when it comes to the documentaries... I did not say that marketers prefer them over drama all the time.

          Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

          And I think that's where what Chris said makes a lot of sense... where since it was sent to marketers who know Gary, maybe they could relate to that story and not need the roller coaster effect.
          Yeah, I saw myself too.

          The letter borrows Gary Halbert's style... I never once got bored of reading his letters... and as Shawn said, that's why I don't believe they needed the drama.

          P.S. I know you're not picking on anyone Rick.

          P.P.S. I'm off to watch the latest Captain America... oh the drama! :p
          Signature

          Wealthcopywriter.com :)

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061522].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Oh, I see! You're pulling out the Dan Kennedy "Good is good enough" card.

    Yeah, Dan D's going to teach you about the power of storytelling and leave out one of the most important parts, drama.

    Why?

    Don't need to. Because good is good enough. Riding on Gary's coattails just one more time, even after Dan's told the story some umpteenth time, is gonna work.

    Chris, if that's what you think is great copy, written by a great copywriter is supposed to look like, you've sets your sights low.

    Great copywriters don't think that way. Not when it matters.

    - Rick Duris
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061574].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
      Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

      Oh, I see! You're pulling out the Dan Kennedy "Good is good enough" card.

      Yeah, Dan D's going to teach you about the power of storytelling and leave out one of the most important part, drama.

      Why?

      Don't need to. Because good is good enough. Riding on Gary's coattails just one more time, even after Dan's told the story some upteemith time, is gonna work.

      Chris, if that's what you think is great copy, written by a great copywriter is supposed to look like, you've sets your sights low.

      Great copywriters don't think that way. Not when it matters.

      - Rick Duris
      Rick, he's not teaching story telling in that email.

      That's a tangent.

      The point is "goofing off" to let your sub-concious get to work, before you write the ad.

      I never once said it's "great copy."

      My point was that it didn't need the drama to make people connect with it.

      There's no way either of us can definitively tell whether the drama would have helped it or not... but it was my opinion.

      @ Steve, I'm not denying that drama doesn't sell. We all know it can sell a tonne. I just don't agree that this particular email would have benefitted from the added drama.
      Signature

      Wealthcopywriter.com :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061605].message }}
  • I'll take a neutral stance on this.

    Because I like Lawrence's low hype emails. They make a refreshing change.

    I've bought a lot of his stuff.

    I didn't need the drama.

    But I also agree drama does sell.

    Now, if you read an email or letter 5 times and it "connected" that's good.

    But did you buy the "product?"

    If not, a touch more drama might have persuaded you.


    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061594].message }}
  • Chris,

    I object. I really do.

    Here in the UK selling has not been metricfied.

    We only ever sell by the ton.


    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061639].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
      Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      Chris,

      I object. I really do.

      Here in the UK selling has not been metricfied.

      We only ever sell by the ton.


      Steve
      Woops.

      Been writing all day...
      Signature

      Wealthcopywriter.com :)

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061698].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
        When I was on Dan's list, I read his emails because it was Dan. He had built a relationship with me and had conditioned my expectations.

        When his emails arrived, I was automatically interested. I didn't need storytelling or any other persuasion techniques to be interested, because I was already in learning mode.

        It's not particularly smart to view any one part outside the context of the whole.

        Alex
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061884].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
          Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

          When I was on Dan's list, I read his emails because it was Dan. He had built a relationship with me and had conditioned my expectations.

          When his emails arrived, I was automatically interested. I didn't need storytelling or any other persuasion techniques to be interested, because I was already in learning mode.

          It's not particularly smart to view any one part outside the context of the whole.

          Alex
          Yeah, except that email didn't go to Dan's list. Went to Daniel Levi's list.

          You're right. Not particularly bright to comment on something unless you know the context, Alex. Not too bright at all.

          - Rick Duris
          Signature
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9062210].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Terez
    This is a fantastic discussion.

    Let's not get caught that one is necessarily better than the other.
    The whole point of great writing is to put the right message in front of the right audience.

    Bruce Barton had 100 percent response rate on a fundraising letter. It told a great story
    about the kids in West Va their money would support, but it wasn't dramatic,
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9061651].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
    I might be wrong but I think what Rick is saying is that Dan is being lazy. If he added a story telling element he would have gotten a greater response than what he did.

    Rick can correct me if I am wrong but it makes sense to me.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9062080].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
      Originally Posted by JohnRussell View Post

      I might be wrong but I think what Rick is saying is that Dan is being lazy. If he added a story telling element he would have gotten a greater response than what he did.

      Rick can correct me if I am wrong but it makes sense to me.
      I don't think it was laziness. Not at all. Nobody writes a 2000 word email because they're lazy.

      - Rick Duris

      PS: If what Marvin said is true, maybe Dan repurposed a previous blog post. That would make sense.
      Signature
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9062236].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
        Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

        I don't think it was laziness. Not at all. Nobody writes a 2000 word email because they're lazy.

        - Rick Duris

        PS: If what Marvin said is true, maybe Dan repurposed a previous blog post. That would make sense.
        Yeah, I agree Rick... laziness and 2,000 word emails usually don't go together.

        If you want to see laziness, just sign up as an affiliate for some of the Clickbank offers.

        They give swipes of 2 lines... basically saying...

        "Hey,

        You gotta check this out... it's amazing and the best
        thing you'll ever see!

        But do it now... it's gonna be goon soon!

        Click here..."

        THAT is lazy... and yet it's what you'll find on most clickbank offers
        that they give to their affiliates.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9062243].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
        Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

        I don't think it was laziness. Not at all. Nobody writes a 2000 word email because they're lazy.

        - Rick Duris

        PS: If what Marvin said is true, maybe Dan repurposed a previous blog post. That would make sense.
        Well, it is easy to write 2,000 words and still be lazy. It's called article writing

        Just kidding - but you can write a lot and not put real effort in - that is what I thought you were getting at - apparently not.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9062245].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    Interesting comments about the email by everyone here!

    But something in the back of my mind says this was originally a blog post Dan made as it sounded familiar when I read it.

    If so, do the No Drama comments still apply? It seems like a blog post and an email have different objectives.

    Marvin
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9062100].message }}

Trending Topics