Save the Copywriting Forum: Insert Your 2 Cents Here...

56 replies
Dear fellow copywriters and Freelancer.com Management.

First, let me start by saying that I believe this is one of the best public copywriting forums on the internet. I'd like to see it stay that way, and I suspect I'm not alone on this.

That said, I felt my heart sink when I saw that this forum had been suddenly changed to the "Content Strategy and Copywriting Forum" without any discussion as to whether this was a good move for the members who make this entire forum possible.

On one hand, I understand why this decision was made. There isn't a subforum for content writing on WF, and I think there's a real need for one. Quality content is the most important part of online marketing and newbies and advanced marketers alike need a place where they can get fresh insights and learn from other writers.

At the same time, this decision seems to have ignored what I believe to be the two biggest reasons new entrepreneurs fail to succeed both online and offline. So before I lay those out, I'd like to request that Freelancer.com consider creating a separate subforum for discussing Content Marketing Strategies.

Here's why...

#1: Most New Entrepreneurs Don't Understand What Copywriting is or Why It's So Important to Learn

Most of them see copywriting and content writing as one and the same. Many of them never bother to learn how to write good copy or even recognize good copy when they see it so that they can even hire a good copywriter. They burn up thousands of hours and hundreds, sometimes, thousands, of dollars because of this misunderstanding.

Right now, nearly a half million people are searching this forum for ways to make money online. They come to this forum to learn what they can't learn anywhere else...unless of course, they're willing to fork out $47 for a "how I made billions of dollars in my underwear," ebook.

It's unfortunate that so few of them find this subforum. Sure, we're a rough bunch in here and I openly admit that there are times when I let my juvenile sarcasm get the best of me. Nevertheless, those who do find this forum and post critique requests here learn more about how to make money than they could learn in years on the other forums.

Hell, I've been at this for nearly 20 years and have learned a lot from the other writers on here, even the ones I don't agree with.

Changing this to the content marketing AND copywriting forum will only add to this confusion and could take away one of the only places on the internet that people can go to learn this craft. Of course, you might ask.. why not keep the content strategy topics in here along with the copywriting topics and give them a "one stop shop?"

#2: Content Marketing & Copywriting Aren't Just Different in Degree, They're Different in Kind

I won't go into detail on this, because one of our veteran members already said it better than I could have...

http://www.warriorforum.com/content-...le-writer.html

I respect that someone at Freelancer believed these two topics belong in the same place. But if you ask the top contributors on this forum, you'd get a much different story. The number of "thanks" on this ^ thread, and the new thread below are evidence that this is a shared perspective:

http://www.warriorforum.com/content-...pywriting.html

Again, the two aren't different in degree, they're different in species. By combing them, we're not just putting big lions in with the small lions.

We're mixing two species which belong in two different environments. Putting them together is just going to create more confusion and exasperate the experienced writers in this forum, some of whom, myself included, have invested thousands of hours of their time (collectively), posting their experiences and insights...many of which our clients pay us thousands of dollars for.

If you think we do this just to find work, you might want to look at the Warriors for hire and WSO section. The price points in there and some of the discussions in the main marketing forums will reveal that many of the members on this forum just don't have the money to hire us.

Hell, I personally get dozens of inquiries a month because of my posts on this forum. Most of them can't afford to hire me. That's why they come here. Many of them get thousands of dollars in free advice and feedback from myself and the other writers. That's why they come back.

Considering that our contributions to this forum are what keeps people coming back, I'm guessing our vote counts for something. I could list another 10 reasons why I believe keeping this forum the copywriting only forum and creating a separate one for content marketing would be best for everyone (newbies, contributors AND Freelancer.com), but I suspect my fellow copywriters will add plenty to this discussion.

#3: Imagine the Impact This One Small Decision Could Have

Wouldn't it be great to have a place where we could discuss content marketing as it's own unique and valuable strategy and help people who specialize in content marketing to make a reputation for themselves AND give something back to the online community?

Wouldn't it be great if we could keep THIS subforum strong and give the seasoned writers more time to give feedback and critique on sales pages instead of having to educate people on the difference between content writing and copywriting?

It would also be damn good for the online marketing community too. There's far too little information out there about how to get good at content writing, or even how to hire good writers. The internet is also loaded with lousy content that's frustrating internet users and pressuring Google to roll out ruthless algorithm updates, many of which are sweeping away the good content along with the bad.

Harris Interactive reported that 73% of internet users are frustrated with irrelevant online content. Based on my experience in this niche, I'm betting a LOT of that content is being commissioned by members of this forum. So we're not just taking about an impact on this forum. We're talking about a decision that could impact millions of people around the world.

If you agree with this, or if you'd like to add anything, please respond to this thread. Let's keep the copywriting forum, and the Warrior Forum, strong.
#cents #copywriting #forum #insert #save
  • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
    Hear hear.

    Well said, Seth.

    I would like to see a response by Alaister/Freelancer on this.
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    Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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    • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
      Originally Posted by Chriswrighto View Post

      Hear hear.

      Well said, Seth.

      I would like to see a response by Alaister/Freelancer on this.
      Yes, this would be a great opportunity for Freelancer to prove that they're listening to us, and not just hear to squeeze every dime out of these forums they can as an investment, without caring about its members.

      Edit: BIG thanks to Freelancer for giving us our forums back. Much obliged. :-)
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
      Banned
      It's not just a copywriting forum anymore. It's now also a content strategy forum so enough of the elitism here already.

      Personally? I think it's a good thing combining the two into this one forum as the content writers and bloggers might just shake this sub-forum up a little bit. For far too long this has been one of the weakest and lesser visited sub-forums on the Warrior Forum and this move on the part of the management of Freelancer.com I think this is an excellent move on their part as this will now undoubtedly help more discussions to get going with less aggression and rudeness on the part of some of the regular contributing members who post here.

      As for there being very few online places to go to talk about content marketing and copywriting I respectfully disagree. The WF is just one very small slice of a much larger digital marketing world. Take LinkedIn for example, generally speaking the advice contained on that platform is of a significantly higher quality than this place and if my own personal welcome in the other thread I started earlier today is anything to go by, this positive change is a move in the right direction and is a very good thing overall. I welcome this change it's a good move.

      You need to remember this sub-forum isn't just about you copywriters and what you personally contribute, it's actually about a far larger portion of the overall market of online digital marketers and the target market all of us are trying to reach.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

        For far too long this has been one of the weakest and lesser visited sub-forums on the Warrior Forum
        Interesting comment given that you created this persona and started posting TODAY.

        Concern troll much?
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      • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
        Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

        Personally? I think it's a good thing combining the two into this one forum as the content writers and bloggers might just shake this sub-forum up a little bit.
        A lot wrong in your post, but I've got to call this part out especially.

        What do you mean by shake-up?

        You've already proven in your thread that you don't know the difference between a copywriter and an article writer, so your post here holds 0 credibility.

        It's also extremely fishy that you...
        • Appear on the same day as the change
        • Become the first person to post on "content strategy"
        • Now speak as though you're talking, not just for, but FROM freelancer.
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        Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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        • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Chriswrighto View Post


          It's also extremely fishy that you...
          • Now speak as though you're talking, not just for, but FROM freelancer.
          I could be.

          A ship doesn't have a democracy on board it's simply run from the top down. If you don't like the changes you can always jump ship. No one is forcing any of you to stay here if you don't like it.

          This change is a good thing from the Freelancer management pov otherwise the change would not have been implemented to begin with.
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          • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
            Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

            ....from the Freelancer management pov.
            First rule of good marketing:

            Know what constitutes "good" ....from the customer's pov.

            The new economy has no patience for companies who miss that one.
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      • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
        Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

        For far too long this has been one of the weakest and lesser visited sub-forums on the Warrior Forum.
        And it could be why I'm willing to bet that 90% or more of the people on the entire main forum make peanuts for money.

        They think of copy as an afterthought.

        I'm willing to bet that if more people joined in here in the copy subsection and took some advice from guys like Mal L, Rick D., Mike H. Ray Edwards, Seth P., Mark P, Alex C., Joe G, Ewen M, Angie C, Brian M. and so many other great marketers who contribute... the amount of money made by the REST of the forum would go up too.

        Sure, this may be one of the lesser visited sections... but I'll match up our regular 20 or so contributors here and put them head to head against any other marketing mind online.

        And some claim it's because of the brash feedback they get from the veteran writers here.

        Well, shit, if business was all tulips and roses... everyone would be rich.

        So, do what the smart ones do, put on your big boy pants, jump on in this COPYWRITING section... and learn a damn thing or two from the veterans on here who TAKE TIME out of their day to help and offer advice to others when they don't have to.

        Oh, and P.S. If you read Seth's post and don't think he's a kick ass copywriter... you gotta get your head checked. That's salesmanship my friend.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Kanigan
    Thanks for taking the lead on this, Seth.

    Greg, I disagree completely with your comment that this is one of the weakest subforums. I think it's one of the strongest, with the most people who actually know what they are talking about. Can't say that at all about the main forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
    What concerns me a bit is the mental condition that would do this 1) in the first place, 2) without checking with the moderator and community, and 3) the number of copywriters who have given greatly of their time and knowledge who might get fed up and leave.

    While some changes *might* be needed, having someone rename the forum to suit THEIR preconceived notions is just not right... it shows a great deal of disrespect for the people who built it into one of the top public copywriting forums anywhere.

    I usually am not so blunt, but good grief, having something sprung on this forum as it was is maddening to say the least. And the troll(s) don't help matters at all.

    And I too would like to hear from Freelancer about this.

    I just hope my favorite comment about eBay does not end up being applicable here: I have never seen a company work so hard to destroy the community that built it.

    Marvin
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
      Banned
      You already have. It's called change Marvin. Goes with the territory of the new ownership. Change is inevitable. Either you change and adapt or you die in business. Take it or leave it.
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

        You already have. It's called change Marvin. Goes with the territory of the new ownership. Change is inevitable. Either you change and adapt or you die in business. Take it or leave it.
        "The ruler who oppresses his people is like a driving rain that leaves no crops."
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Gotta wonder why they made this move anyway... Having a separate content strategy forum would be easy enough.

    Are they trying to save on bandwidth or something?
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    Greg, good to see you around these parts again--you made me laugh in that other thread. All trolling aside, I understand your point about content marketing, but what is your response to Brian's idea about a copywriting forum inside the "content strategies and copywriting forum?"

    At least then it would be easier to keep the threads on topic, wouldn't you agree?
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    Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
    - Jack Trout
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    • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
      Banned
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post


      wouldn't you agree?
      Yes I would agree not my decision however, therefore I respect the decision taken by this sector of management which is exactly what they are there to do.

      Although if it helps, as the CEO at FL is actually one of our clients I'll bring this point up with Matt next time we write next week about the future development of this forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
        I'm willing to take a "wait and see" attitude, especially if there is some backpedaling on this ill-considered move.

        But if not, I hope someone with a lot of energy and resources is thinking about creating an alternative venue devoted just to copywriting. If it's done soon, it's relatively easy for the devoted contributors here to jump ship as a group.

        Marcia Yudkin
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        Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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      • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
        Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

        Yes I would agree not my decision however, therefore I respect the decision taken by this sector of management which is exactly what they are there to do.

        Although if it helps, as the CEO at FL is actually one of our clients I'll bring this point up with Mike next time we write next week about the future development of this forum.
        Of course it will help.

        We understand that the management is there to make decisions.

        I've had to make those decisions myself. But we're the ones on the front lines, the ones with our hands in the dirt trying to dig out the gems of talent from the aspiring marketers who post requests for us to critique their work.

        Sure, sometimes feelings get hurt. But like Shawn said, it's not all tulips and roses. Part of business is having the thick skin to take direct feedback. I could go on, but another member already said it in this thread...

        http://www.warriorforum.com/content-...pywriters.html

        I've worked with over a thousand entrepreneurs in the past 17 years and can honestly say that the insight in that post alone ^ is worth a fortune. If we sacrifice good business advice for the sake of being polite, everyone loses.

        Anyway, THANK YOU for the offer to take this to the CEO. I trust by then that this thread will have plenty of response to show him where we're coming from.

        You should know, however, that this is a decision that will impact more than just this forum. What Mr. Russel said about the WSO copy is spot on. If Freelancer.com doesn't know that already, and if they decide to tell the writers on this forum to "jump ship," they'll learn it the expensive way.
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      • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
        Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

        Although if it helps, as the CEO at FL is actually one of our clients I'll bring this point up with Mike next time we write next week about the future development of this forum.
        Who's Mike?
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  • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
    I don't write WSO copy but how about all of you that do, stop.

    When nothing sells and their income stream takes a hit then maybe they will listen.
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    • Profile picture of the author Will Compton
      After a long absence I posted my first thread in The Copywriting Forum yesterday.

      And talk about bad timing...

      When I opened the Warrior Forum to check my thread this morning I was shocked (and disheartened) to see the forum changed to Content Strategies... and Copywriting. I guess the new management wants to try to draw more traffic here and they have a right to test new methods to bring in more members and make more money...

      But, why couldn't a new forum or sub-forum be made?

      I've learned a thing or two about testing, and you should never change something just to change it or because you're tired of seeing it, you must always let the market tell you what to do.

      And judging by this thread, the market is not happy about the change.

      Does the new management want to alienate all the top talent here, the people who create the valuable content? Talk about a terrible content strategy...

      And Freelancer might think twice about pissing off a bunch of copywriters, because you know you're going to get a bunch of strongly worded letters over this...

      Here's a quote from the legendary copywriter Claude Hopkins I think fits what's happening here:

      "Some ads are planned and written with a totally wrong conception. They are written to please the seller. The interests of the buyer are forgotten. One can never sell goods profitably, in person or in print, when that attitude exists.”

      So to Freelancer, do what's right, please. I really like it here, and so do a lot of other people and you're wrecking it for everyone.
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      • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
        So now that this forum has been trashed by the new owners, are there any other good copywriting forums worth joining?

        Serious question.
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        • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Will Compton View Post


          So to Freelancer, do what's right, please. I really like it here, and so do a lot of other people and you're wrecking it for everyone.
          Duly noted. Although 'wrecking it for everyone' I think is just a little bit over the top. What I do think we're seeing here is just a few very disgruntled members who are highly resistant to change and want to maintain the status quo in their favour.

          As stated before change is inevitable, either you adapt to change or you get left in the dust along with all of the other miscreants who like you resist a positive move and change in the right direction.

          If you guys really do believe you have such extraordinary talent to offer everyone else here, here is an idea for you all. Tone down your aggressive and rude responses and start educating more people in a manner which is more conducive towards enabling better results for everyone.

          Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

          So now that this forum has been trashed by the new owners, are there any other good copywriting forums worth joining?

          Serious question.
          LinkedIn although a few of you won't last two seconds on that particular platform with your appalling attitudes. Just a personal observation you understand and not aimed at you directly Luke far from it.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
            Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

            Duly noted. Although 'wrecking it for everyone' I think is just a little bit over the top. What I do think we're seeing here is just a few very disgruntled members who are highly resistant to change and want to maintain the status quo in their favour.

            As stated before change is inevitable, either you adapt to change or you get left in the dust along with all of the other miscreants who like you resist a positive move and change in the right direction.

            If you guys really do believe you have such extraordinary talent to offer everyone else here, here is an idea for you all. Tone down your aggressive and rude responses and start educating more people in a manner which is more conducive towards enabling better results for everyone.

            LinkedIn although a few of you won't last two seconds on that particular platform with your appalling attitudes. Just a personal observation you understand and not aimed at you directly Luke far from it.
            You joined this website earlier today purely to troll.

            Your opinion and thoughts have no value here whatsoever.
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          • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
            Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

            Duly noted. Although 'wrecking it for everyone' I think is just a little bit over the top. What I do think we're seeing here is just a few very disgruntled members who are highly resistant to change and want to maintain the status quo in their favour.

            As stated before change is inevitable, either you adapt to change or you get left in the dust along with all of the other miscreants who like you resist a positive move and change in the right direction.

            If you guys really do believe you have such extraordinary talent to offer everyone else here, here is an idea for you all. Tone down your aggressive and rude responses and start educating more people in a manner which is more conducive towards enabling better results for everyone.

            LinkedIn although a few of you won't last two seconds on that particular platform with your appalling attitudes. Just a personal observation you understand and not aimed at you directly Luke far from it.
            If you work for Freelancer.com, why are you so quick to insult the members of this forum?

            I started this thread to have a professional discussion about something that's a real concern for the members who love this forum and want to see the integrity of the content preserved.

            You're the one who talks about how arrogant and disrespectful we are, and nearly every one of your responses has insulted somebody for speaking their mind. Right now, the only person causing a problem on this thread is you.

            It's Friday night, for God's sake...



            Sounds like you could use one.
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            • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
              Banned
              For too long many of you copywriters in this section have been extremely rude to other people and now a firm hand will control you to help make this sub-forum much better.

              4 aces.
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              • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
                Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

                For too long many of you copywriters in this section have been extremely rude to other people and now a firm hand will control you to help make this sub-forum much better.

                4 aces.
                What do you think of this idea, Mark, and I think you maybe even suggested this when you were posting here last year: A main "Copywriting and content" forum like they have now, but when you click there are two subforums, one for copy and one for content. In other words, one is not a subforum of the other, they are equal subs of the main folder.
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                - Jack Trout
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            • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
              What I do think we're seeing here is just a few very disgruntled members who are highly resistant to change and want to maintain the status quo in their favour.
              Hello? Are we not customers here? And isn't the purpose of a business to serve customers?

              For too long many of you copywriters in this section have been extremely rude to other people and now a firm hand will control you to help make this sub-forum much better.
              It is hard to see how alienating so many highly experienced copywriters could possibly make this forum more worthwhile. If the people who have been posted in this thread were all to leave, you could be left with a forum where copywriting beginners are giving advice to other beginners. Where is the value in that?

              Marcia Yudkin
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              • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
                Banned
                Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

                Hello? Are we not customers here? And isn't the purpose of a business to serve customers?

                Marcia Yudkin
                Yes and yes. There are over 3/4 of a million customers to look after however on this forum not just a few disgruntled copywriters who are highly resistant to change.

                Introducing content strategies and content writing I think over time you will come to appreciate will work out in the best interest of everyone here. If we allowed just the members who have no vested direct financial interest in this forum to ultimately have their say chaos would ensue pretty quickly. An option which isn't about to happen.

                Here is an idea for you all in this section, how about showing the new WF management some respect for the changes which are now underway? These positive changes are being implemented after much discussion for the benefit of everyone not just a select few members.
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                • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
                  Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

                  If we allowed just the members who have no vested direct financial interest in this forum to ultimately have their say chaos would ensue pretty quickly. An option which isn't about to happen.
                  You don't think newbies have had their say? Seriously? It's the exact opposite. How many times do people ask for copy help, get tens of thousands of dollars worth of free advice, and completely ignore it or argue that they don't need to make changes?

                  Heck, members here have bent over backwards trying to help posters who can't even tell you what their product does or who it helps!
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                  - Jack Trout
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                • Profile picture of the author Marvin Johnston
                  Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

                  Yes and yes. There are over 3/4 of a million customers to look after however on this forum not just a few disgruntled copywriters who are highly resistant to change.

                  Introducing content strategies and content writing I think over time you will come to appreciate will work out in the best interest of everyone here. If we allowed just the members who have no vested direct financial interest in this forum to ultimately have their say chaos would ensue pretty quickly. An option which isn't about to happen.

                  Here is an idea for you all in this section, how about showing the new WF management some respect for the changes which are now underway? These positive changes are being implemented after much discussion for the benefit of everyone not just a select few members.
                  You ARE getting the respect you deserve, like it or not.

                  Your "I think" has nothing to back it up, or at least anything you've shown up to this point.

                  As far as respect, how about showing respect for these "few disgruntled copywriters" who have probably made more money than you will ever see? And given freely of their time and expertise to help newbies.

                  Loose them and you will have trashed the value of this forum to be replaced by the new owners perverted view of value.

                  Maybe you should start readng the back threads before you make more statements that will make knowledgeable people question your intelligence.

                  Marvin
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          • Profile picture of the author OutOfThisWord
            Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

            Duly noted. Although 'wrecking it for everyone' I think is just a little bit over the top. What I do think we're seeing here is just a few very disgruntled members who are highly resistant to change and want to maintain the status quo in their favour.

            As stated before change is inevitable, either you adapt to change or you get left in the dust along with all of the other miscreants who like you resist a positive move and change in the right direction.

            If you guys really do believe you have such extraordinary talent to offer everyone else here, here is an idea for you all. Tone down your aggressive and rude responses and start educating more people in a manner which is more conducive towards enabling better results for everyone.



            LinkedIn although a few of you won't last two seconds on that particular platform with your appalling attitudes. Just a personal observation you understand and not aimed at you directly Luke far from it.
            Dude, we're rude?

            Many of us have freely given reviews of copy, landing pages, emails and websites for YEARS to posters who asked for help!

            And you show up today to lecture us?

            Really?
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          • Profile picture of the author Will Compton
            Greg,

            Do you work for Freelance? How much did you have to do with this change? Was it your idea?

            Because you clearly have a vested interest in the title change. I mean, you joined today, started a thread on content strategy and then played defense with all of your other posts. And you practically admitted it earlier in this thread.

            But people aren't buying it.

            It's a shady and underhanded content strategy to send in an undercover champion to try to trick the market into going along with something that is not in anybody's best interest, including yours, including Freelancer's.

            It would be like having two bustling fishing forums, one on deep sea fishing, and the other on fly fishing. And then, for no reason at all merging the two forums together.

            It would create mass confusion, lower the quality of posts and lose you membership... guaranteed.


            Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

            Duly noted. Although 'wrecking it for everyone' I think is just a little bit over the top. What I do think we're seeing here is just a few very disgruntled members who are highly resistant to change and want to maintain the status quo in their favour.
            Yeah, but if you've read the 80/20 Principle, it stands that 80 percent of your good content comes from 20 percent of your members. And the only people that are upset about this are the ones producing content for you for free that you make money off of...

            You're really killing your cash cow here.

            Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

            As stated before change is inevitable, either you adapt to change or you get left in the dust along with all of the other miscreants who like you resist a positive move and change in the right direction.
            Is it just me or does this guy sound the the Borg to anyone else? "Assimilate or die, resistance is futile." And did you really call me a miscreant? You could not have created a worse content strategy here Greg. So, at least preserve a little dignity for yourself and listen to what people are telling you.

            Originally Posted by Greg Windsor View Post

            If you guys really do believe you have such extraordinary talent to offer everyone else here, here is an idea for you all. Tone down your aggressive and rude responses and start educating more people in a manner which is more conducive towards enabling better results for everyone.
            Those were a lot of high-falutin' corporate speak words, you shouldn't address people as a crowd, it's only one person reading at a time, and I disagree, people are being very calm, reserved, and polite about this. You're the one being rude...

            So quit digging the hole your in, listen to the market, please for the love of all that is good and pure, do what's right.

            It stands to reason, you might be a little upset too if you spent years and thousands of hours pouring your secrets and tips out for free, creating a strong community and then have it destroyed overnight.

            It sounds you like don't know what copywriters do. Well, we are the engine that fuels business, without us nothing happens. It does not make money sense to do what you are doing here. Who do you think write the WSO ads that make so much money? Who do you think writes all the reports that push traffic and memberships?

            But, this could be a great moment for you and your company to show us you really are listening and do care. Or you can roll the dice, do the opposite, and see what happens.

            I mean, we're not asking that much are we? Just leave this forum alone and let us continue to create amazing content, for free, for you, that you can profit from.

            Because a company that focuses on it's own need, instead of it's customer's needs, is doomed to fail. But it seems like you really want to learn the hard way...
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            • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
              Banned
              Thank you for your advice. Duly noted.

              Sorry guys but for now you'll have to excuse me as I do have a meeting scheduled to talk about the next raft of major changes to be rolled out shortly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    This isn't one of the weakest sub-forums on WF...

    ...it's one of (if not) the strongest.

    Freelancer has the opportunity to help way more people by keeping The CW Forum separate... and promoting it on a larger scale.

    The fact that they implemented this re-positioning doesn't mean they know what they're doing; it means they need help in choosing the right direction. And that's okay. Everyone needs help, sometimes.

    Not too long ago...

    I saw the brain trust at Freelancer add the ability to buy a Sticky in the For Hire section. I haven't checked recently, but when they made the change, it was horribly written and created massive confusion.

    Poor communication is the kiss of death.

    Likewise, not understanding something (like the difference between content & copywriting) and poorly positioning this sub-forum hurts THEIR image... THEIR reputation.

    The peeps at Freelancer should show the WF members how it's done - by hiring some of the copywriters here to help them create a more profitable and effective transition...

    ...simultaneously elevating The CW Forum (after receiving the endorsement from the new owners for making the WF a more effective, helpful place to participate in.)

    There's been a glitch in the transition-strategy. That's clear. But this is a great opportunity to take a step back, reimagine the possibilities... and show WF members how to REALLY demonstrate value, promote, sell... yadda yadda yadda.

    Don't get me wrong...

    They probably looked at the relatively lower numbers of the CW Forum and took it to mean something's wrong.

    Again...

    That's okay.

    It's just time to adjust.

    Because in the end...

    If it's their intention to recoup their investment and make more money, there's nobody better to help them than the peeps in THIS copywriting subforum.

    Great post Seth.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      Not too long ago...

      I saw the brain trust at Freelancer add the ability to buy a Sticky in the For Hire section. I haven't checked recently, but when they made the change, it was horribly written and created massive confusion.

      Poor communication is the kiss of death.

      Likewise, not understanding something (like the difference between content & copywriting) and poorly positioning this sub-forum hurts THEIR image... THEIR reputation.

      The peeps at Freelancer should show the WF members how it's done - by hiring some of the copywriters here to help them create a more profitable and effective transition...
      Great story.

      Couldn't have said it better myself.

      That was one of the "other 10" I was talking about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author Alaister
    Hi everyone,

    I have just come across this discussion in this sub forum in regards to the name changes and the direction of this forum. As many of you may know, yesterday we went through and tightened up the design of the forum. General consensus is that the new design is an improvement, which is great. I'm glad people like the design changes as a whole. We also went through all of the forums and cleaned up their names and descriptions. Our plan was to make things clearer and categorize different sections in a better way. There was no intention in changing the direction of any of the forums, including this one.

    I have read all of your feedback and the discussions about the name change and understand where a lot of you are coming from. I love Warrior Forum and am not here to completely change the direction of everything. I think a lot of the changes we have made in the past shows that. We have decided to change it back to copywriting as we want to continue to allow this section to bring intelligent conversation and be a valuable resource for copywriters and Internet marketers.

    I am somewhat disgusted however with some of the discussion and conversation that has gone on in this section after the name change. There should never be a case where we descend to name calling and being plain rude. It's perfectly fine to disagree and have constructive discussion and conversation to put forward your point however being rude is not acceptable. If people have nothing to add to conversations outside of name calling and being rude, then please refrain. There is always a way to put your views and opinions forward respectfully.

    At this stage I will be changing the name back to "Copywriting".

    Thank you for everyone's feedback!
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    • Profile picture of the author Will Compton
      Well good on you Alaister, thanks for listening.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Originally Posted by Alaister View Post


      I am somewhat disgusted however with some of the discussion and conversation that has gone on in this section after the name change. There should never be a case where we descend to name calling and being plain rude. It's perfectly fine to disagree and have constructive discussion and conversation to put forward your point however being rude is not acceptable. If people have nothing to add to conversations outside of name calling and being rude, then please refrain. There is always a way to put your views and opinions forward respectfully.
      Alastair,

      Is Greg Windsor an employee of Freelancer?

      Because if so, he's not exactly representing the company well in this regard.

      You might want to print out the above segment of your post about being respectful and tape it to his desk.
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      • Profile picture of the author Greg Windsor
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
      Originally Posted by Alaister View Post

      I am somewhat disgusted however with some of the discussion and conversation that has gone on in this section after the name change. There should never be a case where we descend to name calling and being plain rude. It's perfectly fine to disagree and have constructive discussion and conversation to put forward your point however being rude is not acceptable. If people have nothing to add to conversations outside of name calling and being rude, then please refrain. There is always a way to put your views and opinions forward respectfully.
      Thanks Alaister. Truly.

      One thing...

      When passionate people fight for something they know is right, it's not always gonna be elequent. But this "occupy copywriting forum" was definitely worth everyone's efforts. As my tennis friend always says... "It wasn't pretty, but it was ugly."

      I will say...

      One single agitator ruffled a lot of feathers. We all know who he REALLY is. And this is his M.O. He's done it many times before - under different names. Keep an eye out for his IP. Without his presence, I think this would have been a much more peaceful protest.

      And maybe we didn't need to fight so hard. Maybe Brian Mc. just needed to get your attention and explain things one on one. I don't know.

      What I do know is...

      Things are right as rain again. So thanks again.

      One more thing...

      I was talking with another copywriter here on Skype yesterday - while all of this was going down.

      He's really just as brilliant in content marketing as he is a great copywriter. And we both agreed that having a content marketing/strategy sub-forum is a HUGE benefit to the WF members. So don't back off from installing that idea. Just not here.

      A copywriter who knows how to leverage content marketing? He or she is an unstoppable force.

      But copywriting and content marketing MUST be learned separately... then integrated - when the time calls.

      (Credit Rick Duris;-)

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
        Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

        A copywriter who knows how to leverage content marketing? He or she is an unstoppable force.

        But copywriting and content marketing MUST be learned separately... then integrated - when the time calls.

        (Credit Rick Duris;-)

        Mark
        Whoever it was, my guess is they started out taking the piss (def. for Yanks: deflating false pride) for a chuckle, and some of it made me laugh out loud. Parts of it had a max5ty quality to it (I've got 3 copywriters I pay $300,000 each) which was hilarious. Kudos to that.

        But as people got more riled up, it became harder to steer the car. I think they tried to pull back at the end, but the wheels were already over the side, and it started tumbling down the ravine in a ball of fire.

        As you mentioned, what "Greg" said about content marketing in and of itself is true--i.e., his comments about content marketing in general, not in relation to copywriting--content marketing is growing.

        If you can integrate it with powerful copywiting, well, you may have a $40 million company someday.
        Signature
        Marketing is not a battle of products. It is a battle of perceptions.
        - Jack Trout
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Thank you, Alaister.

    You are appreciated.

    Best,

    Brian
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    "Greg Windsor doesn't have authority to speak on behalf of Freelancer.com."
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Wheeler
    If Greg Windsor genuinely has anything to do with Freelancer.com I will eat my proverbial hat...

    I somehow don't think Matt Barrie would be the success he is if he had people like Greg speaking for his company.
    Signature
    I sell my own products and training via www.marketerspassport.com
    I review products and offer bonuses at www.wantabonus.com
    I blog personally, infrequently and a little randomly at www.justinwheeler.net
    And I run a Web Development and Social Media Consultancy at www.vashonmedia.com
    Look forward to knowing you... Drop by on Facebook
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  • Profile picture of the author Alaister
    Greg Windsor has no association with Freelancer.com or Warrior Forum
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
        Thanks to both Alaister and Matt on such a quick delivery of what we wanted.
        Signature

        Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Saw this thread late last night but was tired and didn't respond. However it ended just as I knew it would with Alaister changing the section name and showing none of the nefarious intent being implied.

        I am not a Copywriter but participate in what I am told is the second most contentious forum -SEO. Your passion for what you do does get misunderstood by a lot of people that don't get it (particularly since so many non professionals claim your name. Its WORSE in SEO) but we have to cut some slack. Like myself and SEO you get the finer points of your profession (content strategy as opposed to copywriting). However we shouldn't expect everyone to understand the nuances of our line of work and sometimes the culture can be misunderstood with no foul. As an outsider to the emotion it looked pretty obvious what happened and that nothing outrageous had been done - just a short misunderstanding quickly fixed which never implied anything like was being presented

        Glad it worked out for you guys. SEO had a name change too but in our case it took out the superfluous stuff which I was pleased with.
        Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author mattbarrie
    Hello Everyone

    Matt here. First off, apologies for inadvertently screwing up the name of this forum. As Alaister said, we made a number of design changes to clear up the forum generally, remove clutter and bring it a few years forward from 1997 in aesthetics! As part of these we cleaned up some of the forum names, fixed grammatical and spelling error etc. We got a bit carried away and edited this forum name in the mistaken belief that a lot of the discussion would be around content strategy given that Warrior is first and foremost a marketing forum- and how wrong we were! Thanks for bringing this error to our attention so quickly, we've changed it back. Sorry for any heartburn this might have caused.

    Regards
    Matt

    PS: Greg Windsor has no association with Freelancer, we've never heard of him. I think he was having a go winding a few people up.
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  • Profile picture of the author fulfilledlife
    Thanks to both Matt and to Alaister for returning this amazing sub forum to how it was. I visit copywriting daily and learn something new with each day and I am sure I am not the only one.
    Signature

    Try not to become a man of success, but rather try to become a man of value - Albert Einstein

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  • Profile picture of the author RRG
    Good call.

    Copywriting and content writing are two entirely different animals.

    By the way, why does Chrome continue to flag "copywriting" as a misspelled word?
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    • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
      Originally Posted by RRG View Post

      Good call.

      Copywriting and content writing are two entirely different animals.

      By the way, why does Chrome continue to flag "copywriting" as a misspelled word?
      Because even the almighty Google is clueless about copywriting.
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