Save the Copywriting Forum: Insert Your 2 Cents Here...

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Dear fellow copywriters and Freelancer.com Management.

First, let me start by saying that I believe this is one of the best public copywriting forums on the internet. I'd like to see it stay that way, and I suspect I'm not alone on this.

That said, I felt my heart sink when I saw that this forum had been suddenly changed to the "Content Strategy and Copywriting Forum" without any discussion as to whether this was a good move for the members who make this entire forum possible.

On one hand, I understand why this decision was made. There isn't a subforum for content writing on WF, and I think there's a real need for one. Quality content is the most important part of online marketing and newbies and advanced marketers alike need a place where they can get fresh insights and learn from other writers.

At the same time, this decision seems to have ignored what I believe to be the two biggest reasons new entrepreneurs fail to succeed both online and offline. So before I lay those out, I'd like to request that Freelancer.com consider creating a separate subforum for discussing Content Marketing Strategies.

Here's why...

#1: Most New Entrepreneurs Don't Understand What Copywriting is or Why It's So Important to Learn

Most of them see copywriting and content writing as one and the same. Many of them never bother to learn how to write good copy or even recognize good copy when they see it so that they can even hire a good copywriter. They burn up thousands of hours and hundreds, sometimes, thousands, of dollars because of this misunderstanding.

Right now, nearly a half million people are searching this forum for ways to make money online. They come to this forum to learn what they can't learn anywhere else...unless of course, they're willing to fork out $47 for a "how I made billions of dollars in my underwear," ebook.

It's unfortunate that so few of them find this subforum. Sure, we're a rough bunch in here and I openly admit that there are times when I let my juvenile sarcasm get the best of me. Nevertheless, those who do find this forum and post critique requests here learn more about how to make money than they could learn in years on the other forums.

Hell, I've been at this for nearly 20 years and have learned a lot from the other writers on here, even the ones I don't agree with.

Changing this to the content marketing AND copywriting forum will only add to this confusion and could take away one of the only places on the internet that people can go to learn this craft. Of course, you might ask.. why not keep the content strategy topics in here along with the copywriting topics and give them a "one stop shop?"

#2: Content Marketing & Copywriting Aren't Just Different in Degree, They're Different in Kind

I won't go into detail on this, because one of our veteran members already said it better than I could have...

http://www.warriorforum.com/content-...le-writer.html

I respect that someone at Freelancer believed these two topics belong in the same place. But if you ask the top contributors on this forum, you'd get a much different story. The number of "thanks" on this ^ thread, and the new thread below are evidence that this is a shared perspective:

http://www.warriorforum.com/content-...pywriting.html

Again, the two aren't different in degree, they're different in species. By combing them, we're not just putting big lions in with the small lions.

We're mixing two species which belong in two different environments. Putting them together is just going to create more confusion and exasperate the experienced writers in this forum, some of whom, myself included, have invested thousands of hours of their time (collectively), posting their experiences and insights...many of which our clients pay us thousands of dollars for.

If you think we do this just to find work, you might want to look at the Warriors for hire and WSO section. The price points in there and some of the discussions in the main marketing forums will reveal that many of the members on this forum just don't have the money to hire us.

Hell, I personally get dozens of inquiries a month because of my posts on this forum. Most of them can't afford to hire me. That's why they come here. Many of them get thousands of dollars in free advice and feedback from myself and the other writers. That's why they come back.

Considering that our contributions to this forum are what keeps people coming back, I'm guessing our vote counts for something. I could list another 10 reasons why I believe keeping this forum the copywriting only forum and creating a separate one for content marketing would be best for everyone (newbies, contributors AND Freelancer.com), but I suspect my fellow copywriters will add plenty to this discussion.

#3: Imagine the Impact This One Small Decision Could Have

Wouldn't it be great to have a place where we could discuss content marketing as it's own unique and valuable strategy and help people who specialize in content marketing to make a reputation for themselves AND give something back to the online community?

Wouldn't it be great if we could keep THIS subforum strong and give the seasoned writers more time to give feedback and critique on sales pages instead of having to educate people on the difference between content writing and copywriting?

It would also be damn good for the online marketing community too. There's far too little information out there about how to get good at content writing, or even how to hire good writers. The internet is also loaded with lousy content that's frustrating internet users and pressuring Google to roll out ruthless algorithm updates, many of which are sweeping away the good content along with the bad.

Harris Interactive reported that 73% of internet users are frustrated with irrelevant online content. Based on my experience in this niche, I'm betting a LOT of that content is being commissioned by members of this forum. So we're not just taking about an impact on this forum. We're talking about a decision that could impact millions of people around the world.

If you agree with this, or if you'd like to add anything, please respond to this thread. Let's keep the copywriting forum, and the Warrior Forum, strong.
#copywriting #cents #copywriting #forum #insert #save
  • Hear hear.

    Well said, Seth.

    I would like to see a response by Alaister/Freelancer on this.
    • [ 4 ] Thanks
    • [2] replies
    • Yes, this would be a great opportunity for Freelancer to prove that they're listening to us, and not just hear to squeeze every dime out of these forums they can as an investment, without caring about its members.

      Edit: BIG thanks to Freelancer for giving us our forums back. Much obliged. :-)
      • [ 3 ] Thanks
    • Banned
      It's not just a copywriting forum anymore. It's now also a content strategy forum so enough of the elitism here already.

      Personally? I think it's a good thing combining the two into this one forum as the content writers and bloggers might just shake this sub-forum up a little bit. For far too long this has been one of the weakest and lesser visited sub-forums on the Warrior Forum and this move on the part of the management of Freelancer.com I think this is an excellent move on their part as this will now undoubtedly help more discussions to get going with less aggression and rudeness on the part of some of the regular contributing members who post here.

      As for there being very few online places to go to talk about content marketing and copywriting I respectfully disagree. The WF is just one very small slice of a much larger digital marketing world. Take LinkedIn for example, generally speaking the advice contained on that platform is of a significantly higher quality than this place and if my own personal welcome in the other thread I started earlier today is anything to go by, this positive change is a move in the right direction and is a very good thing overall. I welcome this change it's a good move.

      You need to remember this sub-forum isn't just about you copywriters and what you personally contribute, it's actually about a far larger portion of the overall market of online digital marketers and the target market all of us are trying to reach.
      • [3] replies
  • Thanks for taking the lead on this, Seth.

    Greg, I disagree completely with your comment that this is one of the weakest subforums. I think it's one of the strongest, with the most people who actually know what they are talking about. Can't say that at all about the main forum.
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  • What concerns me a bit is the mental condition that would do this 1) in the first place, 2) without checking with the moderator and community, and 3) the number of copywriters who have given greatly of their time and knowledge who might get fed up and leave.

    While some changes *might* be needed, having someone rename the forum to suit THEIR preconceived notions is just not right... it shows a great deal of disrespect for the people who built it into one of the top public copywriting forums anywhere.

    I usually am not so blunt, but good grief, having something sprung on this forum as it was is maddening to say the least. And the troll(s) don't help matters at all.

    And I too would like to hear from Freelancer about this.

    I just hope my favorite comment about eBay does not end up being applicable here: I have never seen a company work so hard to destroy the community that built it.

    Marvin
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    • Banned
      You already have. It's called change Marvin. Goes with the territory of the new ownership. Change is inevitable. Either you change and adapt or you die in business. Take it or leave it.
      • [1] reply
  • Gotta wonder why they made this move anyway... Having a separate content strategy forum would be easy enough.

    Are they trying to save on bandwidth or something?
  • Greg, good to see you around these parts again--you made me laugh in that other thread. All trolling aside, I understand your point about content marketing, but what is your response to Brian's idea about a copywriting forum inside the "content strategies and copywriting forum?"

    At least then it would be easier to keep the threads on topic, wouldn't you agree?
    • [1] reply
    • Banned
      Yes I would agree not my decision however, therefore I respect the decision taken by this sector of management which is exactly what they are there to do.

      Although if it helps, as the CEO at FL is actually one of our clients I'll bring this point up with Matt next time we write next week about the future development of this forum.
      • [3] replies
  • I don't write WSO copy but how about all of you that do, stop.

    When nothing sells and their income stream takes a hit then maybe they will listen.
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    • After a long absence I posted my first thread in The Copywriting Forum yesterday.

      And talk about bad timing...

      When I opened the Warrior Forum to check my thread this morning I was shocked (and disheartened) to see the forum changed to Content Strategies... and Copywriting. I guess the new management wants to try to draw more traffic here and they have a right to test new methods to bring in more members and make more money...

      But, why couldn't a new forum or sub-forum be made?

      I've learned a thing or two about testing, and you should never change something just to change it or because you're tired of seeing it, you must always let the market tell you what to do.

      And judging by this thread, the market is not happy about the change.

      Does the new management want to alienate all the top talent here, the people who create the valuable content? Talk about a terrible content strategy...

      And Freelancer might think twice about pissing off a bunch of copywriters, because you know you're going to get a bunch of strongly worded letters over this...

      Here's a quote from the legendary copywriter Claude Hopkins I think fits what's happening here:

      "Some ads are planned and written with a totally wrong conception. They are written to please the seller. The interests of the buyer are forgotten. One can never sell goods profitably, in person or in print, when that attitude exists.”

      So to Freelancer, do what's right, please. I really like it here, and so do a lot of other people and you're wrecking it for everyone.
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      • [1] reply
  • This isn't one of the weakest sub-forums on WF...

    ...it's one of (if not) the strongest.

    Freelancer has the opportunity to help way more people by keeping The CW Forum separate... and promoting it on a larger scale.

    The fact that they implemented this re-positioning doesn't mean they know what they're doing; it means they need help in choosing the right direction. And that's okay. Everyone needs help, sometimes.

    Not too long ago...

    I saw the brain trust at Freelancer add the ability to buy a Sticky in the For Hire section. I haven't checked recently, but when they made the change, it was horribly written and created massive confusion.

    Poor communication is the kiss of death.

    Likewise, not understanding something (like the difference between content & copywriting) and poorly positioning this sub-forum hurts THEIR image... THEIR reputation.

    The peeps at Freelancer should show the WF members how it's done - by hiring some of the copywriters here to help them create a more profitable and effective transition...

    ...simultaneously elevating The CW Forum (after receiving the endorsement from the new owners for making the WF a more effective, helpful place to participate in.)

    There's been a glitch in the transition-strategy. That's clear. But this is a great opportunity to take a step back, reimagine the possibilities... and show WF members how to REALLY demonstrate value, promote, sell... yadda yadda yadda.

    Don't get me wrong...

    They probably looked at the relatively lower numbers of the CW Forum and took it to mean something's wrong.

    Again...

    That's okay.

    It's just time to adjust.

    Because in the end...

    If it's their intention to recoup their investment and make more money, there's nobody better to help them than the peeps in THIS copywriting subforum.

    Great post Seth.

    Mark
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    • Great story.

      Couldn't have said it better myself.

      That was one of the "other 10" I was talking about.
  • [DELETED]
  • Hi everyone,

    I have just come across this discussion in this sub forum in regards to the name changes and the direction of this forum. As many of you may know, yesterday we went through and tightened up the design of the forum. General consensus is that the new design is an improvement, which is great. I'm glad people like the design changes as a whole. We also went through all of the forums and cleaned up their names and descriptions. Our plan was to make things clearer and categorize different sections in a better way. There was no intention in changing the direction of any of the forums, including this one.

    I have read all of your feedback and the discussions about the name change and understand where a lot of you are coming from. I love Warrior Forum and am not here to completely change the direction of everything. I think a lot of the changes we have made in the past shows that. We have decided to change it back to copywriting as we want to continue to allow this section to bring intelligent conversation and be a valuable resource for copywriters and Internet marketers.

    I am somewhat disgusted however with some of the discussion and conversation that has gone on in this section after the name change. There should never be a case where we descend to name calling and being plain rude. It's perfectly fine to disagree and have constructive discussion and conversation to put forward your point however being rude is not acceptable. If people have nothing to add to conversations outside of name calling and being rude, then please refrain. There is always a way to put your views and opinions forward respectfully.

    At this stage I will be changing the name back to "Copywriting".

    Thank you for everyone's feedback!
    • [ 18 ] Thanks
    • [3] replies
    • Well good on you Alaister, thanks for listening.
    • Alastair,

      Is Greg Windsor an employee of Freelancer?

      Because if so, he's not exactly representing the company well in this regard.

      You might want to print out the above segment of your post about being respectful and tape it to his desk.
    • Thanks Alaister. Truly.

      One thing...

      When passionate people fight for something they know is right, it's not always gonna be elequent. But this "occupy copywriting forum" was definitely worth everyone's efforts. As my tennis friend always says... "It wasn't pretty, but it was ugly."

      I will say...

      One single agitator ruffled a lot of feathers. We all know who he REALLY is. And this is his M.O. He's done it many times before - under different names. Keep an eye out for his IP. Without his presence, I think this would have been a much more peaceful protest.

      And maybe we didn't need to fight so hard. Maybe Brian Mc. just needed to get your attention and explain things one on one. I don't know.

      What I do know is...

      Things are right as rain again. So thanks again.

      One more thing...

      I was talking with another copywriter here on Skype yesterday - while all of this was going down.

      He's really just as brilliant in content marketing as he is a great copywriter. And we both agreed that having a content marketing/strategy sub-forum is a HUGE benefit to the WF members. So don't back off from installing that idea. Just not here.

      A copywriter who knows how to leverage content marketing? He or she is an unstoppable force.

      But copywriting and content marketing MUST be learned separately... then integrated - when the time calls.

      (Credit Rick Duris;-)

      Mark
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  • Thank you, Alaister.

    You are appreciated.

    Best,

    Brian
  • "Greg Windsor doesn't have authority to speak on behalf of Freelancer.com."
  • If Greg Windsor genuinely has anything to do with Freelancer.com I will eat my proverbial hat...

    I somehow don't think Matt Barrie would be the success he is if he had people like Greg speaking for his company.
  • Greg Windsor has no association with Freelancer.com or Warrior Forum
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  • [DELETED]
  • Hello Everyone

    Matt here. First off, apologies for inadvertently screwing up the name of this forum. As Alaister said, we made a number of design changes to clear up the forum generally, remove clutter and bring it a few years forward from 1997 in aesthetics! As part of these we cleaned up some of the forum names, fixed grammatical and spelling error etc. We got a bit carried away and edited this forum name in the mistaken belief that a lot of the discussion would be around content strategy given that Warrior is first and foremost a marketing forum- and how wrong we were! Thanks for bringing this error to our attention so quickly, we've changed it back. Sorry for any heartburn this might have caused.

    Regards
    Matt

    PS: Greg Windsor has no association with Freelancer, we've never heard of him. I think he was having a go winding a few people up.
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  • Thanks to both Matt and to Alaister for returning this amazing sub forum to how it was. I visit copywriting daily and learn something new with each day and I am sure I am not the only one.
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  • Good call.

    Copywriting and content writing are two entirely different animals.

    By the way, why does Chrome continue to flag "copywriting" as a misspelled word?
    • [1] reply
    • Because even the almighty Google is clueless about copywriting.

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