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Long Copy vs Short Copy?

by dougkpga
30 replies
Are copywriters the only ones who like long copy?

I have seen so many salesletters I just just skim.

I know the arguments for long copy and the formatting formula, but I just can't read them anymore.

I have a golf program for sale and I reckon I am better off just letting the reader skim through the chapters and let them read the headlines and the first paragraph of each section, like you would do in a bookstore or or newsagent.
#copy #long #short
  • Profile picture of the author CashTactics
    Unfortunately long copy vs. short copy is one of those things you have to test out and see what converts best for your niche. Take a look at how other people are promoting a similar product. That is generally the best route to go.

    I like your idea of giving a sneak preview of the ebook. I wouldn't skip out on the sales letter though.
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    • Profile picture of the author ndcole78
      It's not that "copywriters" like long copy. It's because your potential buyers like them better---long copy has proven to outsell short copy time and time again. The reason for this is that the customer usually has never ever heard of you, your product, or anything, so they have dozens of questions running through their mind while they're on your site. Long copy gives you the opportunity to answer all of these questions as well as further convince them to go ahead and do what they wanted to do all along: Buy the solution to their problem.

      Companies like Wal-Mart, Coke, Nike, etc. don't need long copy because the general public already knows their products, etc.

      When you start looking at it as "I can't read them anymore" then you're not thinking like the potential customer, which is what you should be doing. It's not for you---it's for your target audience and unless you're Wal-Mart, etc., stick with long copy.

      With that said, you can also give them a sneak-preview in your sales copy. I always do that when I write copy for clients. I encourage doing this so people will have a true sense or idea of what they're actually buying.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Yawn...

    I'm sitting this one out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dean Dhuli
    This is the 1724th time this question has come up on this forum.







    [
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  • Profile picture of the author Woody C
    This has been discussed numerous times here. Do a quick search for the other threads.

    Also, here:

    Long Copy vs. Short Copy Tested

    and

    The Long and Short of Copywriting | Copyblogger
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    Now we celebrate a letter than does 5% conversion, and for
    good reasons. Now if the letter did not convince the 95%
    non-buyers then we can say that 95% of these visitors don't
    like long copy.

    Now to extend my argument this would mean that 95% of
    people who read your sales letter don't like something about
    that sales letter. I would NOT allow a survey filled out by these
    people to determine how you write and present your letters.

    Bottom line: It is expected that 95% of visitors would not
    like your website for one reason or another. But you can
    get rich with that 5% who do.

    So are you the 5% or the 95%?

    I think it was Bill Cosby who said that there are over 270 million
    people living in the U.S. and he only needs small percentage of
    those people to think he is funny to build a successful business.

    So when I hear people say THEY don't like long sales letters,
    I say, "So what?"

    Millions of voters didn't vote for Obama, but you only need
    a majority to win.

    A sales letter doesn't need a majority, sometimes just 3% to
    be in profit.

    -Ray Edwards
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  • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
    I would speculate that when you have 500 words of short copy, you have 500 words to convince your customer. But when you have 5,000 words - you have ten times as much opportunity to convince, and the customer can always skip to the end and buy.

    So it seems kind of obvious that long copy would convert better.
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  • Profile picture of the author yonaswedo
    Haha.. I would like to ask Allen regarding this question. As we see, Allen make so long sales page I've ever met for "War Room". Check this out Warrior Forum - The "War Room" - Private Discussions
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  • Profile picture of the author David Raybould
    Man I can't believe this came up again.

    I'm not even going to get into it.

    I think Ken puts it pretty well though.

    -David Raybould
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    Whatever you need, my high converting copy puts more money in your pocket. PM for details. 10 years experience and 9 figure revenues.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    It's interesting to see the number of posters who didn't
    get into it by getting into the thread.

    It's like starting a letter by saying, "I am writing you this letter ..."
    It's obvious that you are writing a letter.

    I don't get into a discussion by staying out of it.

    -Ray Edwards
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    • Profile picture of the author dougkpga
      Thanks Warriors who gave a reply. As you can see from the number of posts, I am a newbie here. It's funny how some of you copywriters treated my naive post with such disdain. I'm sorry for making you waste a few keyboard strokes.

      But if someone was looking to maybe get in touch with you guys from here, would they with that attitude? I'm sure someone who took the time to be patient and give the answer over again would be a preferred choice. You guys can work out who is who.

      I put this post in because I spent night after night painstakingly putting together my product, wrote a long salesletter based on the format of a top copywirter, and my sales have not been great. I haven't got the skills to split test (as yet).

      I thought this might be a good place to get some advice as I have put in a lot of hours and a lot of money learning this stuff for little reward. And I have to work out why inferior products appear to be successful while I struggle.

      So thanks everyone.
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      • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
        Originally Posted by dougkpga View Post

        Thanks Warriors who gave a reply. As you can see from the number of posts, I am a newbie here. It's funny how some of you copywriters treated my naive post with such disdain. I'm sorry for making you waste a few keyboard strokes.

        But if someone was looking to maybe get in touch with you guys from here, would they with that attitude? I'm sure someone who took the time to be patient and give the answer over again would be a preferred choice. You guys can work out who is who.
        LOL... and doug... your follow up seems to be almost identical to the followups we get on those other threads too.

        Too funny...

        I put this post in because I spent night after night painstakingly putting together my product, wrote a long salesletter based on the format of a top copywirter, and my sales have not been great. I haven't got the skills to split test (as yet).
        And see... the reason you get met with such disdain (you call it) is because you did all that painstaking work and didn't bother to just simply search for "long copy short copy"? The board has that function for a reason... it's so we don't have to answer the same questions over and over again.

        I thought this might be a good place to get some advice as I have put in a lot of hours and a lot of money learning this stuff for little reward. And I have to work out why inferior products appear to be successful while I struggle.
        At least you can cull an answer from this thread. The problem certainly isn't longcopy.
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      • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
        Originally Posted by dougkpga View Post

        TBut if someone was looking to maybe get in touch with you guys from here, would they with that attitude? I'm sure someone who took the time to be patient and give the answer over again would be a preferred choice. You guys can work out who is who.
        The ironic part is that anyone who has to ask this question isn't likely to have the cash to afford a decent copywriter. I guess the "inside joke" rattled you the wrong way but it's pretty obvious you didn't even try to figure out the answer for yourself.

        I've said it before and I'll say it again - a forum is not a person's own personal research assistant. At least TRY to find out the answer before you post a thread, if not by using the search function, then going into say the first ten pages of discussion and skimming the titles. I'd bet good money this has been discussed in the last ten pages of threads.

        I put this post in because I spent night after night painstakingly putting together my product, wrote a long salesletter based on the format of a top copywirter, and my sales have not been great. I haven't got the skills to split test (as yet).
        Good copywriters work their tails off for years before they can write a decent letter. It takes most of us 2 - 4 weeks to write a good letter... and that's with a lot of practise. How long do you think it would take a newbie to write one, even if they had the necessary chops?

        I thought this might be a good place to get some advice as I have put in a lot of hours and a lot of money learning this stuff for little reward. And I have to work out why inferior products appear to be successful while I struggle.

        So thanks everyone.
        Expect a lot more struggling before you finally figure this stuff out, unless you just want to bite the bullet and pay to have things done quicker and better for you (pay for sales copy, pay a designer, pay for marketing consulting, pay for an article writer, pay for an Adwords pro... etc).

        Remember that no one knows how good your product is until they buy it. Crappy products sell well because the product doesn't really come into the equation... the offer does, sure, but a good product mainly impacts (IMHO) repeat business, word-of-mouth, and lowering refund rates... not the sales of a "lead gen" product (which I assume yours is).

        -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author Ken Strong
      Originally Posted by Raydal View Post

      I don't get into a discussion by staying out of it.
      Ray, thanks for joining us inside on the outside!
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  • Profile picture of the author Kyle Tully
    WOW is is really that time of the month again?
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Originally Posted by dougkpga View Post

    Are copywriters the only ones who like long copy?
    Like it? I hate it. Have YOU ever tried to write a 25 page sales letter?

    Originally Posted by dougkpga View Post

    I have a golf program for sale and I reckon I am better off just letting the reader skim through the chapters and let them read the headlines and the first paragraph of each section, like you would do in a bookstore or or newsagent.
    Rock on! It works for Amazon so it'll work for you, right? Why are you posting here if you believe that?
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark McClure
      Doug,
      Just speak all your copy as a running commentary to 18 optin video pages.
      Job done.
      See you in the clubhouse... or the bunker ;-)
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  • Profile picture of the author dougkpga
    Sorry for being so dumb that I couldn't use the search and I am not an experienced internet marketer.

    I AM A GOLF PRO.

    But I used long copy and my sales weren't very good compared to the traffic that was going to the site.

    Well as a golf pro I can tell the copywriters who are too good for the rest of us and the ones who are actually interested in helping me solve a problem.

    It wouldn't matter how good the copy some of you write, you missed the obvious requirement of empathy with the customer and identifying their real problem. How would you go getting customers with your attitudes?

    Thanks to all the good advice.

    Thumbs down to the people who think they need to win an argument that I didn't have any intention of starting.
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    • Profile picture of the author Daniel Scott
      Originally Posted by dougkpga View Post

      Sorry for being so dumb that I couldn't use the search and I am not an experienced internet marketer.

      I AM A GOLF PRO.

      But I used long copy and my sales weren't very good compared to the traffic that was going to the site.

      Well as a golf pro I can tell the copywriters who are too good for the rest of us and the ones who are actually interested in helping me solve a problem.

      It wouldn't matter how good the copy some of you write, you missed the obvious requirement of empathy with the customer and identifying their real problem. How would you go getting customers with your attitudes?

      Thanks to all the good advice.

      Thumbs down to the people who think they need to win an argument that I didn't have any intention of starting.
      And I would suggest dropping the attitude. You've just gotten good advice from guys who get paid a lot of money to write sales letters... don't throw it out just because we didn't treat you with kid gloves.

      You're the one who couldn't be bothered to search for this issue before making a thread. Hell, you even got a response... more than you honestly should have expected.

      Sure, we're interesting in solving your sales copy... for a price. That's what we do. We SELL OUR SERVICES. A pro shop doesn't give away free golf clubs...

      And, I'll give you one more hint - the problem with your sales copy isn't the length. It's that it doesn't speak to the ideal prospect in a resonant way. And I can tell that without even seeing your site.

      I suggest you accept you made a mistake, suck it up, and take the good advice that's being offered in this thread... instead of acting like a spoiled brat.

      -Dan
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    • Profile picture of the author CDarklock
      Originally Posted by dougkpga View Post

      It wouldn't matter how good the copy some of you write, you missed the obvious requirement of empathy with the customer and identifying their real problem.
      I can't count the number of times, in my early career as a software developer, that I complained about "obvious" requirements.

      The designers missed the "obvious" requirement that radio buttons line up directly to the left of their labels.

      The marketers missed the "obvious" requirement that customers know the technical limitations of our new feature.

      The project managers missed the "obvious" requirement that deadlines always need to be extended.

      But then I started my own company and had to hire designers, marketers, and project managers. And not only were those requirements not "obvious"... they were STUPID.

      But since I wasn't a designer, a marketer, or a project manager - I couldn't tell.

      So now, having been humbled several times by this understanding, I don't claim that someone else's professional work misses an "obvious" requirement. Instead, I sit down and ask why they've done things a particular way, and why they haven't met the "obvious" requirement.

      In the overwhelming majority of cases, I've learned that they know what they're doing, and were perfectly aware of the "obvious" requirement... but it simply didn't apply in this case.

      I'm no copywriter, but when a copywriter tells me his copy converts and mine doesn't... I'll take his word for it until I see the numbers. Because I'm betting he knows his job better than I do.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bruce Wedding
    Dude, you can't even see what you're doing. How would you like it if a copywriter walked out to your tee line while you're giving a lesson and started saying what you were teaching was bullshit?

    And then I pickup a club and start hacking it up, hitting it fat, thin, slicing, chunking it up. I've got a reverse weight shift, a lousy grip, too much tension in my forearms and a lousy stance.

    That's what you just did here.

    Think about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author Valeriu Popescu
    Hi!

    I'm not a copywriter but I test long vs short sales letter.

    And for my JV course, the long version works better. It's
    not about what I like, it's more about testing to see what
    version sales better.

    Valeriu
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin Lam
    Doug,

    What's going on here is that we're all tired of seeing the same questions asked over and over again. I understand you're a newbie and all, but surely you know how to use a forum and some of its special powers.

    I mean yes, the guys could have been a little nicer. You have to understand that they've been through some rough times dealing with idiots who just talk crap out of their ass with nothing to back it up for the past couple of months. There's a lot of powerful and experienced copywriters here who are paid $10k-$25k per sales letter. They know what they're talking about. It's just that they're tired of seeing so many threads like this that take up space and doesn't really allow them to teach people that really need it.

    It's like asking someone to turn a page for you when you're fully capable of doing so yourself. It just just makes you look incompetent, you know? No offense. It is what it is.

    As for your question between short and long. I've tried both. Both are successful. My shortest copy has been 2 pages. My longest copy has been 25 pages. Here's the thing, pricing had nothing to do with it! One of the short copy had a product that sells over $100 while the long copy had a product that was just $20. Both did great.
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  • Profile picture of the author Dima Kritchevski
    Here is the be all, end all answer to this question:

    You only need to write as much copy as is required to sell the particular product. No more, no less.

    Suppose you need to buy some A4 paper for your printer... I'm sure you'd only have like 2 criteria... ok quality, decent price.

    Now suppose you were buying a HOUSE... Now I'm sure you'd have dozens of questions, probably hundreds of criteria and the real estate agent would have to talk to you for a while to help you find and purchase the right house...

    so if you were writing an ad for selling paper you could probably fit it on a postcard...

    But if you were writing an ad that was designed to sell a house you'd probably need a 10-15 page letter filled with pictures, detailed descriptions and quality salesmanship to meet all the persons criteria, answer all their questions and compel them to take you up on your offer.

    That's the only true answer...

    Copywriting is just salesmanship in print and you have to treat it that way, if a salesman couldnt sell you on it in 1 minutes you probably cant sell the product in 300 words...

    If he could sell you on it in 1 minutes, than maybe a long form sales letter will just bore people to death and work awfully in that nice!

    I hope that analogy helps.

    Cheers,
    Dima
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    • Profile picture of the author MontelloMarketing
      Originally Posted by Dima Kritchevski View Post

      Here is the be all, end all answer to this question:

      You only need to write as much copy as is required to sell the particular product. No more, no less.


      meet all the persons criteria, answer all their questions and compel them to take you up on
      Obviously...

      But the point some of us were making was that the answer can be found in many other threads on this subject. In fact your exact answer was said at least 2 other times.
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