Attention newbs: opinions are like a$$holes, and this place is full of 'em

45 replies
A word to would-be writers, marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, etc.

There are a whole lot of lemmings in here lately. You're asking for advice and following something shiny right off the damn cliff.

This is your business. Don't take the advice here lightly, quickly jumping from one change to the next before really understanding what's happening and why.

Take each piece of advice you receive and study it. Ask the poster questions. Do some additional research.

Really put it through the wringer.

Why? Because this is YOUR business.

It affects NONE of us giving the advice.

We're not investing in your business. We're not being paid to get to know your unique problems.

YOU are the one trying to figure out how to get your product into the hands of people who need it.

And if you jump the gun and implement some random internet poster's opinion before stopping to consider the source, who does that fall on?

Unfortunately, you.

YOU will bear the brunt of well-intentioned but often fundamentally flawed advice.

So take my advice with a grain of salt too...

Be quick to seek advice from people with more experience, but be slow (and sometimes outright hesitant) to implement. This is your business, not ours.

~Your Friendly Neighborhood Redheaded Trouble Maker
#a$$holes #attention #full #newbs #opinions #place
  • Profile picture of the author clever7
    It seems that you don't want the participation of anyone else besides copywriters in this section of the forum.

    Since I’m one of the non-experts here, I believe I should write something and give you an answer.

    My answer is: OK, if you don't like my participation I will stop writing my thoughts. I don't want to make you or anyone else sad.

    Whenever I will have the time I will simply read a few posts, without interfering.

    Goodbye.




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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    This was in no way directed at you. If you feel it was, you might want to ask yourself why.

    Outside commentary is always welcome. Just make sure you're presenting opinion as just that... opinion.
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    • Profile picture of the author clever7
      Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

      This was in no way directed at you. If you feel it was, you might want to ask yourself why.

      Outside commentary is always welcome. Just make sure you're presenting opinion as just that... opinion.
      I was not offended at all, and I didn't take it personally. I just told you that there is no problem.

      If you believe that comments by amateurs are misleading those who come here asking for advice you could be right, and I have no such intention.

      I was using this section of the forum the same way I use other sections. I didn't realize the negative effect my opinion could have.

      I come here to rest and learn for a while. Internet marketing is not my field. I don't mind remaining silent in this section.

      When I first started reading the replies of many copywriters I was excited because they write well. I'm a writer since I learned how to write, but English is not my native language. However, I like to read perfect sentences.

      I thought it would be a good idea to participate of the discussions in this section because I like whatever is related to writing, besides being interested on copywriting.

      However, if instead of helping I'm confusing those who come here looking for help, I have no reason to write what I think.

      I believe you were showing to all newbies that people don't come here to find the opinion of whoever may desire to analyze their sales page. They want the opinion of experts. This was what I understood. I agree with this concept and I respect it.





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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Did you even read the whole thing, dude? Or just skim the intro and decide I'm evil and hate everyone?

    I hate seeing people being led astray and making potentially catastrophic business decisions based on posts in a forum.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark 99
    It's a free forum, most of the stuff on here is personal opinion. Even some stuff that reads as "fact" is far fetched at times. Any business owner who makes the mistake of taking everything they see on WF as fact clearly shouldn't be in business.
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by Mark 99 View Post

      It's a free forum, most of the stuff on here is personal opinion. Even some stuff that reads as "fact" is far fetched at times. Any business owner who makes the mistake of taking everything they see on WF as fact clearly shouldn't be in business.
      That's definitely true. The way I see it, some people come here with nothing but a dream. They've built everything themselves with what little resources they have. They're trying desperately to make something work.

      There are even those that have something to work with, but not much. They're trying hard to be successful. This message is for them. They may need to hear the obvious, and I am admittedly rough with the delivery, which is just how I roll.
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      • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
        Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

        There are even those that have something to work with, but not much. They're trying hard to be successful. This message is for them. They may need to hear the obvious, and I am admittedly rough with the delivery, which is just how I roll.
        Chalk it up to being a veteran copywriter. A good number of veteran copywriters were trained or mentored in a tough love manner. A good number more have developed a similar tough love manner. I learned copywriting in the "gun to the head" manner where whatever I wrote had to work or I was going to have lay off staff members as a result.

        When I was a new professional copywriter for hire, I posted a health-related salesletter I wrote on another forum. A more experienced copywriter (he knows who he is) absolutely publicly shredded it. Said it was guaranteed to bomb for my client and that I had chosen the wrong hook, theme, and even the gender of the product's expert. Initially I was extremely ticked off. But after I calmed down and looked at what he said... I realized he was right and I quickly went back to work to fix it. Despite his gruff delivery, he was spot-on on every point and I've since thanked him for his help.

        Since then, I've given a lot of critiques to marketers and copywriters. As much as I might try, I'm not always gentle with my feedback and advice.

        But the reality of being a professional copywriter is this: When a client's business is on the line based on how well a promotion you're writing works (and frequently this is the case for a lot of copywriters) then you have to have a quick mind to speak the truth and you can not hold back from speaking the truth. Doesn't matter what delivery is used in order to increase the likelihood of their promotion succeeding. Ideally, you are able to use a gentle delivery but sometimes it's not always possible. Sometimes the only way for a client to *get* your advice is to deliver it roughly.

        And the fact of the matter is, bruised egos and hurt feelings can be soothed afterwards when you save your client from making a mistake that could cost them A LOT of money.

        A few years ago, Rick Duris explained the nature of copywriters so well in this separate thread that I'm not sure I could say it better than he did. I highly recommend reading his initial post.

        http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...pywriters.html

        My 3 cents,

        Mike
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        • Profile picture of the author jakedenver
          Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys View Post

          Chalk it up to being a veteran copywriter. A good number of veteran copywriters were trained or mentored in a tough love manner. A good number more have developed a similar tough love manner. I learned copywriting in the "gun to the head" manner where whatever I wrote had to work or I was going to have lay off staff members as a result.

          When I was a new professional copywriter for hire, I posted a health-related salesletter I wrote on another forum. A more experienced copywriter (he knows who he is) absolutely publicly shredded it. Said it was guaranteed to bomb for my client and that I had chosen the wrong hook, theme, and even the gender of the product's expert. Initially I was extremely ticked off. But after I calmed down and looked at what he said... I realized he was right and I quickly went back to work to fix it. Despite his gruff delivery, he was spot-on on every point and I've since thanked him for his help.

          Since then, I've given a lot of critiques to marketers and copywriters. As much as I might try, I'm not always gentle with my feedback and advice.

          But the reality of being a professional copywriter is this: When a client's business is on the line based on how well a promotion you're writing works (and frequently this is the case for a lot of copywriters) then you have to have a quick mind to speak the truth and you can not hold back from speaking the truth. Doesn't matter what delivery is used in order to increase the likelihood of their promotion succeeding. Ideally, you are able to use a gentle delivery but sometimes it's not always possible. Sometimes the only way for a client to *get* your advice is to deliver it roughly.

          And the fact of the matter is, bruised egos and hurt feelings can be soothed afterwards when you save your client from making a mistake that could cost them A LOT of money.

          A few years ago, Rick Duris explained the nature of copywriters so well in this separate thread that I'm not sure I could say it better than he did. I highly recommend reading his initial post.

          http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...pywriters.html

          My 3 cents,

          Mike
          Very well said. I can tell you are in the game to help people. I’m here to help people too and I won’t be detracted because I’m not a copywriter, per say.

          Consider me a digital mechanic.

          If I can build a membership site for you. If I can send you a set of instructional videos that will leave NO STONE unturned. If I worked on a system to help you manage and optimize you content (both free and paid membership areas… and I can show you the VIP area on a video, do I need to write copy like a pro?

          For a one time fee... Cheaper than a year's worth of the competitor. The cost of hosting a regular site. 100% customization (wordpress is saturated) - The buyer won't need me to be persuasive. He won't even want to know my name.

          If a guy/lady is selling as a .com - life just got easier. Feature list and benefits.

          I get that information marketers have to go off of social proof and persuasion. I’m thinking about diving into the arena myself one day.

          A word to would-be writers, marketers, business owners, entrepreneurs, etc? Some kid’s gonna’ see that and think about quitting.
          I’m here for the guys that want to swipe the basics without having to credentialize themselves. A few aggressive posts have made me think… What are we doing here?

          I’m not here to invade the space and it seems like that other guy is in the same boat. But my spin on the top guys in the industry could help, if not, it didn't cost them anything. <--- I used that last one to secure my foot in the door a few, few times… “if you don’t have an interest, it doesn't cost you anything but I think this plan could really provide a better solution here and both of us don’t want this to happen again.”

          I get business. Issuing apologetic credits and renegotiating to keep contracts. I’m here for that beach lifestyle I’m hearing about.
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          • Profile picture of the author MikeHumphreys
            Originally Posted by jakedenver View Post

            If I can build a membership site for you. If I can send you a set of instructional videos that will leave NO STONE unturned. If I worked on a system to help you manage and optimize you content (both free and paid membership areas… and I can show you the VIP area on a video, do I need to write copy like a pro?
            It depends. It depends on what you're selling. A demo video may be the optimal way to sell the product or service. Or it might not. As far writing copy... it depends on how much you want to maximize your sales. A number of marketers are happy using "good enough" marketing for their business.

            I didn't start out planning to be a copywriter. I was a brick and mortar business owner who realized that if I wanted to make sure I covered my marketing and advertising costs of getting new business, then I had to write stuff that was better than what I had been producing. And if I wanted to make sure I turned a profit from my marketing, then what I wrote had to be top-notch.

            Eventually I became quite good at writing marketing. So much so that other business owners I knew started asking me to write their marketing for them. I refused to do it until one friend blackmailed me into doing it. Seeing that he was the guy who introduced me to my future wife and the future mother of my children... well, he had a lot of leverage.

            Long story short, I completely fell into the copywriting industry. I quickly realized that if I didn't want to stay at entry level fees forever... if I wanted to deliver bigger and bigger hits for my clients with more consistency, then I was going to have to up my game and keeping upping it.

            The same is true with the other copywriters in this forum. If they want to command higher fees and be in demand then they have to be serious about honing their skills and delivering marketing that makes their clients more money.

            Is there anything wrong with not wanting to write copy on a pro copywriter level?

            Not at all.

            Just realize that when you wander in here, you're surrounded by a good number of pros who take their livelihood pretty seriously. And the nature of their work makes them pretty proactive on squashing things that can hurt response rates or sales. Like bad advice being tossed around like it's something that should be followed to the "T".


            I get that information marketers have to go off of social proof and persuasion. I’m thinking about diving into the arena myself one day.

            I’m here for the guys that want to swipe the basics without having to credentialize themselves. A few aggressive posts have made me think… What are we doing here?
            IMHO, it never hurts to be upfront with your credentials. That you're not a copywriter and don't aspire to be one. Most of the copywriters here, IMHO, will treat you nicely or even fairly. The ones who don't... try to read their posts as emotionally detached as you can. More often than not, IMHO, their intentions to help were probably there but their delivery was different than what you expected.

            Anyone who wants to learn the basics of copywriting, I highly recommend checking out the recommend books thread stickied at the top of this forum.

            I’m not here to invade the space and it seems like that other guy is in the same boat. But my spin on the top guys in the industry could help, if not, it didn't cost them anything. <--- I used that last one to secure my foot in the door a few, few times… “if you don’t have an interest, it doesn't cost you anything but I think this plan could really provide a better solution here and both of us don’t want this to happen again.”
            Sorry, you lost me on this one.

            What I will say is that I don't post as often on this forum as I used to. I'm busy as heck with client work and my remaining time is consumed by family obligations. If I'm looking at a finite number of working hours in a given day (like all of us are), then in the best of interests of what brings in the most income for my businesses (copywriting and info-product), it's rarely participating in a marketing forum. It's quite common that what starts out as a single post turns into a series of posts to answer further questions, explain points more, rebute accusations, prove my case, and so on.

            I get business. Issuing apologetic credits and renegotiating to keep contracts. I’m here for that beach lifestyle I’m hearing about.
            I hope you find your beach lifestyle in the near future.
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            • Profile picture of the author jakedenver
              I didn't lose anything. I was saying I've been on the phone with people in charge of payroll and expense accounts for the past few years. Good tactic. "I don't get it" superiority.

              The little guys seem to have peaked some interest here. I'm sure my future posts will be interesting. or silent.

              I seriously don't have an interest in these things. I invested in the courses and books for a reason.
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  • Everybody....relax...

    Angie is just reminding us how to use this forum. Her approach was a bit strong but if you read through the entire thing, you'll see that she has the best intentions.

    For newbies, all she's saying is that you take all the advice you see in this forum with a grain of salt. Those who comment on your thread have the best intentions, but some of them may not be the best people to take advice from.

    And for everyone else, she's just reminding us to be careful with what we post. Newbies take our advice seriously. It's our responsibility to respond to threads where we can make a significant contribution to and not to post simply so our signature would be seen.

    @Angie. I agree that there are a lot of lemmings here lately but I think you need to tone it down just a little bit. A lot of these "lemmings" are people who just want to help out. Yes, we're not experts but we do have something to significant to contribute.

    And I think we have to make things clear here. EVERYTHING on this forum is an opinion. Whenever a newbie asks for advice, we give our opinions based on the limited information he/she has given us, based on what he/she understands about the business and the nature and severity of the problem, which may or may not be accurate.

    I think we can all agree that most of just want to be helpful. There's no need to put down anyone's advice, as long as the intentions are good and the advice makes a lot of good sense. And I'd like to think most of us are smart enough to the difference between sensible advice and advice from lemmings.
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee

      @Angie. I agree that there are a lot of lemmings here lately but I think you need to tone it down just a little bit. A lot of these "lemmings" are people who just want to help out.
      You're entitled to your opinion. Will I tone it down? Nah.

      There are lots of people who want to help, everywhere, every day.

      They'll help you self diagnose health issues at home. They'll advise you on the best way to rip apart your car and put it back together again, bigger and better.

      Are they trying to help? Probably, for the most part.

      Does that mean that all advice should be taken because the intent is there?

      Or if you see someone advising something harmful, do you interject?

      I lean toward the latter. Sure, they don't have to listen. But I try to help people avoid the mistakes I've made and that others I know have made. And I'll continue to do so every time I see ill-informed advice given out.
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  • Profile picture of the author pewpewpewmonkeys
    Last altercation post I'll be contributing to.
    OP creates a thread warning people to be cautious when taking advice.

    Random guy unrelated to post feels offended.

    If I can build a membership site for you. If I can send you a set of instructional videos that will leave NO STONE unturned. If I worked on a system to help you manage and optimize you content (both free and paid membership areas… and I can show you the VIP area on a video, do I need to write copy like a pro?
    Your perspective only works if you have zero competition. The moment you have competition it means you need an edge on said competition.

    A few aggressive posts have made me think… What are we doing here? ...I’m here for that beach lifestyle I’m hearing about.
    If you want that beach lifestyle then you're going to need to develop thicker skin and stop feeling that people are being "aggressive" just because they challenge your position, perspective, or opinion.
    Signature
    Some cause-oriented hackers recently hacked one of my websites. So I researched what they're about and then donated a large sum of money to the entity they hate the most.

    The next time they hack one of my websites I'm going to donate DOUBLE.
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    • Profile picture of the author jakedenver
      Originally Posted by pewpewpewmonkeys View Post

      OP creates a thread warning people to be cautious when taking advice.

      Random guy unrelated to post feels offended.

      Your perspective only works if you have zero competition. The moment you have competition it means you need an edge on said competition.

      If you want that beach lifestyle then you're going to need to develop thicker skin and stop feeling that people are being "aggressive" just because they challenge your position, perspective, or opinion.
      Random Guy? Is this a club? You got me.

      I'm really just seeing if the WSO thing can get some media buying cash together.

      I'm glad I didn't put a link on this thing.

      There is no logical reason to consider your assessment of my perspective as correct.

      "thicker skin" Where did you get the idea that I have that little of life dude? I have been on here for about five days out of the past four years. Good head games. Bravo!

      Not saying this thing isn't full of good stuff though. Way better than facebook, in my opinion. But if you think I actually care about people on here - you must have that in your own way of life somewhere. Basically, speak for yourself first. It obviously bothered you in some way.
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      • Profile picture of the author jakedenver
        "Boss Lady" Angie, the smilee face was there to represent that I was messing with you. This is the problem with text.

        I hear the traffic in the bay area is bad so I understand the intense psychology.

        In real life you would have understood immediately that I was playing around.

        This is why I like video.

        PeeWee Monkey - One thing I got from your post is "giving people 'advice' is a waste of time" and you are right.

        I kind of caught a whiff of you trying to assassinate my character and I HAD TO DEFEND MYSELF!

        I'm reading a really good book by. Bill Glazer (Outrageous Advertising) to add a little value. ATTENTION: Random guys - google him if you don't know.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Oh, autotags... you are so funny sometimes.



    Every salesroom needs a little Alec Baldwining every so often.
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      Oh, autotags... you are so funny sometimes.



      Every salesroom needs a little Alec Baldwining every so often.
      LOL I get MUCH more Baldwin-esque. I don't think this place could ever handle it.

      You're right though... The tags are hilarious.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Mike... You're always one of the few I pay close attention to, man. Thanks for doing what you do and always being such a class act.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    I've heard a lot of random parallels before, but never one linking my attitude and/or psychological tactics to traffic.

    If that were true, y'all should be glad I don't still live in LA.
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Even when I read books by the giants in this field, I take it all as a matter of opinion. I take away what I find valuable and put the rest aside.

    For example, some of the giants will tell you that the "only" job of a headline is to get you to read the body copy. Sugarman is in that school of thought. Others (like Ogilvy, I think) believe the headline should always promise some benefit, in addition to being intriguing. I lean toward the latter, though the rest of Sugarman's ideas (eg. "the slippery slope") are valuable. Just like on this board, I take away what I find valuable and put the rest aside.

    What I enjoy most about this board is having my copywriting insights confirmed by insights of the writers here who I can sense are real pros. In fact, I daresay if you participate here and can't tell the valuable stuff from the b.s., you probably haven't done your homework.

    Caveat emptor. Other than working for you outright, the writers here can't help you much if you haven't first done your homework.

    My advice to anyone seeking the help of copywriters is to learn about copywriting before seeking help. Copywriting takes a knack, but it ain't rocket science, and it ain't as mysterious as some people make it out to be. Understand the basics before seeking the help of a pro.

    You'll stand a much better chance of success (and make a much better client) if you know a bit about copywriting yourself.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    I'm gonna take Angie's OP in a different direction...

    Unless you have the copy chops to utilize the BEST feedback, you really have no business wasting everyone's time.

    I say that with love.

    Here's a question...

    Would someone who genuinely believes in their product or service start a thread - asking for a critique... and constantly change their headline, lead, positioning, hook and so on... because someone gave their opinion?

    No.

    Because a serious business owner should be meticulously protective about their campaign direction.

    A serious business owner knows to only listen to a copywriter - when there's full disclosure.

    Why?

    Because when a copywriter takes on a project, he or she spends hours, even days... even months, to understand the marketplace, the positioning, envisioning the full funnel, how traffic's gonna be driven... and getting a story out of the biz owner.

    Lots of moving parts.

    None of which get properly communicated by 99% of the people who I've seen ask for a critique since I've joined this place.

    Sure, I've seen a small handful of people walk away from their feedback thread the better for it... and actually achieved, you know... results.

    But more often than not, critique threads are the definition of insanity.

    Does that mean people shouldn't chime in?

    Nope. Quite the opposite. Chime away. Because at the end of the day, these threads are more useful for lurkers than participants. At least someone's gaining some sort of value, right?

    Again, I say that with nothing but love.

    That being said...

    If you REALLY believe in your product or service and you're not extremely skilled at writing copy, I hope I don't see you here. Instead, I hope you find and invest in the right copywriter to make your dreams of helping people and achieving financial freedom, a reality.

    Thanks Angie.

    Oh... and by the way...

    Before attacking someone, make sure you understand their intention. Angie had nothing but the best of intentions when she posted the OP. I can tell. It's clear as day. Respond in silence and make sure you FEEL the intention - before you make assumptions. Just saying.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author clever7
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post

      I
      Would someone who genuinely believes in their product or service start a thread - asking for a critique... and constantly change their headline, lead, positioning, hook and so on... because someone gave their opinion?

      No.

      Because a serious business owner should be meticulously protective about their campaign direction.

      A serious business owner knows to only listen to a copywriter - when there's full disclosure.

      Why?

      Because when a copywriter takes on a project, he or she spends hours, even days... even months, to understand the marketplace, the positioning, envisioning the full funnel, how traffic's gonna be driven... and getting a story out of the biz owner.

      Lots of moving parts.

      None of which get properly communicated by 99% of the people who I've seen ask for a critique since I've joined this place.

      Sure, I've seen a small handful of people walk away from their feedback thread the better for it... and actually achieved, you know... results.

      But more often than not, critique threads are the definition of insanity.

      ...
      Mark
      You are right.

      Wish I knew this truth in the beginning of my adventures online. I should begin by finding a good copywriter, but when we study internet marketing (because we have to if we want to be online business owners, and not because we like this topic) we don't understand this truth.

      Nobody talks about the importance of copywriting to beginners. I even remember that someone else a few days ago started a thread about this matter.

      I believe that understanding the basics about copywriting is more than necessary to all internet marketers, as well as understanding the value of good copy.

      Now, about the topic of this thread ,

      I understood that the opinion of non-experts not only confuses those who are looking for help in this section of the forum, but it also causes problems to the copywriters who are trying to get hired here.

      They are working very seriously, with a clear intention in mind while we (the tourists) keep bothering their work. For example, they are trying to show to the public that A is the best copywriting solution, but the tourists keep preferring option B, which is not the right one, etc.

      So, it is irritating.

      This is another reason why newbies shouldn't participate of the discussions here.

      Of course, when a discussion is about a theoretical matter, everyone is welcome.


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      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by clever7 View Post

        This is another reason why newbies shouldn’t participate of the discussions here.
        Of course, when a discussion is about a theoretical matter, everyone is welcome.
        No, don't mistake me.

        Newbies absolutely SHOULD participate.

        Acknowledge that you're new. Take any lumps you get for sharing your opinion and learn from it. And if you believe yourself to be in the right, be prepared to back up your opinion with fact.

        You being willing to participate benefits people in many ways. 1) You may be saying something someone in the shadows is thinking, that they may decide to implement. By discussing it publicly, they may see the pitfalls or perks of taking action. 2) You get questions answered by experts for free.

        What I see happening lately is newbs coming in and offering advice with no background knowledge or research, just pure subjective opinion. And then getting pissed when they're challenged by folks who know what's up.

        You're here. Anything you say is up for challenge. This entire post has been challenged in a variety of ways.

        Hell, I was nervous about posting it. I knew I'd be stirring up some shit, but I also knew in my gut this was a message some people needed to hear.

        Don't be afraid of sharing your thoughts. Don't be afraid of participating.

        Be afraid of being convinced you're right.

        'Cause even the greats get it wrong. True wisdom comes from knowing you won't always have the answers.

        EDITED TO ADD:

        I know that there are people here trying to solicit business. I am not.

        I am (for some insane reason) truly fascinated by this topic. I love discussing tactics and techniques. I love seeing what people are doing that's new and fresh and pushing the boundaries.

        I've got business. More than enough work for me. When I need more, I reach out for more and it finds me.

        This forum? It's the love of the game for me.
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        • Profile picture of the author Saintsfan40
          Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

          What I see happening lately is newbs coming in and offering advice with no background knowledge or research, just pure subjective opinion. And then getting pissed when they're challenged by folks who know what's up.
          Solid OP. And thank you for exposing the truth.

          I certainly agree to this. To make matters even worse, is when you have these self proclaimed *experts (marked with an asterisk) claim they can teach you how to be successful in whatever field is their expertise. Where in reality, they don't know their ass from a hole in the ground.

          I've been misled and scammed by these types. The worst one was an *expert (so he stated) in PPC Adwords making promises I was going to learn the secrets on getting positive ROI and making thousands daily on these keywords. Not only was I misled and scammed out of money, I was scammed out of time. And when I challenged him and called him out, his true colors showed on what a scumbag he really is.

          People like that are an insult to fecal matter.
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          • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
            I do agree with Angie on this, plenty of people come here and find themselves being advised by a wide variety of people. However some of the advice is backwards and won't benefit the business owner.

            Are their intentions good? ...yeah, totally.

            But I think the fact that there's a computer screen in front of them, makes them think less about the consequences of their words.

            By having the protection of the screen, anyone can give advice (again, in good will) which hasn't been thought through. It's an 'off the cuff' opinion, that they will never have to see the consequences of.

            And I don't think this will ever stop, so Angie's post is well needed.

            It's up to you business owners to sort through the good from the bad.

            Chris

            P.S. As a tip - liked posts tend to be good posts... especially when they've been liked by the top posters here (which there was a link for but I can't find it .)
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        • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
          Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

          No, don't mistake me.

          Newbies absolutely SHOULD participate.

          Acknowledge that you're new. Take any lumps you get for sharing your opinion and learn from it. And if you believe yourself to be in the right, be prepared to back up your opinion with fact.
          .
          Hell that's good advice for EXPERIENCED writers.

          I've seen just about every "veteran" on here, including myself, take a beating from someone at one point or another.

          It pisses you off at first...but in many ways, it's like getting punched in the face for mouthing off to some random dude at a bar.

          Once the aching pain and the cortisol level goes down, you have time to reflect. You realize that you either spoke to soon OR didn't communicate your point clearly enough. Either way, you get to refine your knowledge OR the way you communicate it, and it becomes another stepping stone in the process of becoming a good communicator.

          Open mouth.

          Insert foot.

          Remove foot, rinse mouth out.

          Repeat.

          There are other ways to get good, safer ways, but much slower.

          So the only thing I'd add to your post, for the people who are still learning...

          Don't take anything personally on here.

          It's BUSINESS.

          If you get your feelings hurt, you'll only hurt your own progress.

          If you want to grow into a better marketer, sometimes ya' gotta send the EGO to time out.
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    The Warrior copywriting forum: where "an educated consumer is our best customer."
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      The Warrior copywriting forum: where "an educated consumer is our best customer."
      In most industries I've worked in, that's the case.

      Makes for a better working experience altogether, and often leads to a long-term working relationship.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jonwebb
    thank you for the post.

    over the past few months I've changed my thinking.

    no matter how well constructed your sales later is, cold traffic will always convert around 2-7%. Focus on building solid relationships and the sales letter can be average.

    the perfect sales letter or one that pleases the copy brothers of america is overrated and not needed
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  • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
    It was written to agitate (or Angitate?). And that it did.

    I think it's easy to forget how intimidating this forum looks from the outside, to a non-copywriter. Like strolling into a kennel of hungry wolves.

    Not everybody is as opinionated as this crew, so they naturally defer to the more opinionated posters to tell them what to do. They don't deserve to be mocked for that. The principles of copywriting taken for granted here are the opposite of what's taught in schools, and I say that as a native English speaker.

    (The ones looking to have their copy written for them, on the other hand- Fully deserving of mockery)

    Anyway, for the most part, I don't see alot of the major posters telling people exactly what to write. I see alot of posters most notably Seth encouraging them to test it.

    When you tell a newb "There is no attention grabber or benefit in your headline", that is not debatable.

    To say "your audience prefers a blue banner, are most afraid of their retirement savings drying up, and has bad associations with the word brand"- That is a statement that demands probing and hands on qualification.

    Other than that, this has the makings of a good "Think for yourself" sticky.
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    • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
      Originally Posted by jjosephs View Post

      It was written to agitate (or Angitate?). And that it did.
      Angitate? I freaking love that. I may steal it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        What I see happening lately is newbs coming in and offering advice with no background knowledge or research, just pure subjective opinion. And then getting pissed when they're challenged by folks who know what's up.
        Not just in copywriting - it's happening in every section of the WF.

        Not only subjective opinion - but emotional angst, despair, hand-wringing, hurt feelings. It's like a cluster whine in some sections!

        Refreshing to read an in-your-face approach with common sense applied.
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        • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
          Unless you have the copy chops to utilize the BEST feedback, you really have no business wasting everyone's time.
          I don't agree with this. Sometimes newbies and experts alike can offer feedback that is extremely useful because it says "I'm in your target market and I didn't understand a word you wrote" or "I found the opening very confusing. Are you selling a X or a Y?" or "I found this part offensive because..."

          This doesn't really require copywriting expertise, but rather sensitive reading. The person requesting feedback of course has the right to decide whether or not to pay attention to such feedback.

          Marcia Yudkin
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
            Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

            I don't agree with this. Sometimes newbies and experts alike can offer feedback that is extremely useful because it says "I'm in your target market and I didn't understand a word you wrote" or "I found the opening very confusing. Are you selling a X or a Y?" or "I found this part offensive because..."

            This doesn't really require copywriting expertise, but rather sensitive reading. The person requesting feedback of course has the right to decide whether or not to pay attention to such feedback.

            Marcia Yudkin
            Not sure I agree.

            Say for instance, "I found this part offensive." I've actually had people tell me that on a few occassions. And if I didn't have the confidence to test it anyway, I'd have left a lot of money on the table.

            Personal opinions are very often just semantics - until there's data.

            For newbies, they might be easily persuaded by someone's personal preference, rather than realizing, "Hey, this is definitely worth testing - whether you like it or not."

            Copywriters... or anyone in direct response... are really just data collectors. The more data you can collect, the tighter you can make your campaign.

            Sure, sometimes people post stuff here that's just atrocious.

            I've also seen people (who can write) flip flop on revisions because of different people chiming in with their takes. It becomes a, "Who the heck am I supposed to listen to?" kind of thing.

            My own wife has said, "I'm in your target market and I wouldn't fall for that" when she read some of my copy. And my oh my, it out-performed the control in-spite of her opinion. ;-)

            My point is...

            When a bunch of rabid copywriters are given limited information to work with.... and are coming from different styles (not to mention different levels of exposure to lots of data,) sometimes our feedback helps. And sometimes it just confuses whomever posts.

            I'd love to see more people come back and say, "Your advice was spot on Angie. I knew you were right the moment I read your feedback."

            Or...

            "Damn Brian, the critique you gave me made sense, but it bombed like my dog dropping a deuce."

            Also...

            A lot of threads are totally hijacked by copywriters bickering amongst themselves. Like that helps.

            Sometimes I feel like I can't take y'all anywhere.

            Mark

            P.S. "Sensitive reading" can be useful. I've gotten good ideas from people with zero advertising experience that amazed me. It's just not a sound business strategy.
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          • Profile picture of the author clever7
            Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

            I don't agree with this. Sometimes newbies and experts alike can offer feedback that is extremely useful because it says "I'm in your target market and I didn't understand a word you wrote" or "I found the opening very confusing. Are you selling a X or a Y?" or "I found this part offensive because..."

            This doesn't really require copywriting expertise, but rather sensitive reading. The person requesting feedback of course has the right to decide whether or not to pay attention to such feedback.

            Marcia Yudkin
            The participation of newbies could help all copywriters because all experts have the chance to correct their mistakes. The discussions become more interesting when there are many contradictory opinions.

            On the other hand, a newbie on copywriting can be an expert in other fields, and pay attention to different aspects that could make a difference.

            And the truth is that the business owners who try to save money by asking the opinion of various copywriters (and newbies) in a forum are not wise at all (as explained by Mark).

            From what I could understand copywriting depends on research. So, opinions can be misleading and dangerous - even if given by experts, because the necessary research is missing.

            Therefore, it would be better if the copywriters here had the chance to help even those who are not serious about their business - perhaps because they cannot pay a copywriter, and at the same time attract paying costumers thanks to their brilliant solutions, without being bothered by contradictory opinions.

            Experts may be able to help many business owners based on their experience even without research, but if the newbies keep defending different tactics, their superiority becomes obscure. This is irritating for the experts, and even worse for the public.
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            • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
              Originally Posted by clever7 View Post

              The participation of newbies could help all copywriters because all experts have the chance to correct their mistakes. The discussions become more interesting when there are many contradictory opinions.
              True.

              It's the newbies with fragile feelings and overinflated EGOs that cause problems...

              ...then again, they DO give us a lot to laugh about.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
      Originally Posted by jjosephs View Post

      Anyway, for the most part, I don't see alot of the major posters telling people exactly what to write. I see alot of posters most notably Seth encouraging them to test it.
      I love how Seth tends to be a broken record (in a good way) and keeps telling people the truth, "test it."

      If more people who post for critique DID test and brought us the data... well... that's be something.

      Mark
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      • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
        Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post


        If more people who post for critique DID test and brought us the data... well... that's be something.

        Mark
        There really should be some kind of "Fantasy Copy League" on the forum. How fun would that be?
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        • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
          Originally Posted by jjosephs View Post

          There really should be some kind of "Fantasy Copy League" on the forum. How fun would that be?
          Heh. I could see this rapidly turning into a side thing with little wagers to keep things interesting.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
          Originally Posted by jjosephs View Post

          There really should be some kind of "Fantasy Copy League" on the forum. How fun would that be?
          "Want a critique? Fantastic. There are newbie copywriters/marketers and veteran direct response masters foaming at the mouth to give you their feedback. For your sake and to help The Copywriting Forum become an even more effective tool for business owners, please update your thread as soon as you utilize and test the feedback you receive here. It's all about results, right? Everyone appreciates it."
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  • Profile picture of the author joe golfer
    1. Please RIP APART my sales copy!
    2. OK, your sales copy sucks.
    3. UH, I'm converting at .0005%, DUDE!
    4. My dog can convert higher than that. Really. You said RIP it APART. Here is how to improve it.
    5. Who are you to criticize my copy? You are just some guy/gal on a forum.
    6. You asked for help. Your headline sucks, there's no big idea and you can't close a barn door.
    7. Hey, man, no need to be a rude twat. All opinions from now on should be HELPFUL.
    8. I am helping you. It stinks. Here are two good ideas that have worked for me.
    9. Whatever, dude, I'll show you. Anybody else want to actually HELP?
    10. Etc.

    Two months later....

    1. Please RIP APART my sales copy!
    2. OK, it still sucks.
    3. Etc.
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    • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      1. Please RIP APART my sales copy!
      2. OK, your sales copy sucks.
      3. UH, I'm converting at .0005%, DUDE!
      4. My dog can convert higher than that. Really. You said RIP it APART. Here is how to improve it.
      5. Who are you to criticize my copy? You are just some guy/gal on a forum.
      6. You asked for help. Your headline sucks, there's no big idea and you can't close a barn door.
      7. Hey, man, no need to be a rude twat. All opinions from now on should be HELPFUL.
      8. I am helping you. It stinks. Here are two good ideas that have worked for me.
      9. Whatever, dude, I'll show you. Anybody else want to actually HELP?
      10. Etc.

      Two months later....

      1. Please RIP APART my sales copy!
      2. OK, it still sucks.
      3. Etc.
      Such timeless wisdom. Isn't that from Deuteronomy 28?
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    • Profile picture of the author clever7
      Originally Posted by joe golfer View Post

      1. Please RIP APART my sales copy!
      2. OK, your sales copy sucks.
      3. UH, I'm converting at .0005%, DUDE!
      4. My dog can convert higher than that. Really. You said RIP it APART. Here is how to improve it.
      5. Who are you to criticize my copy? You are just some guy/gal on a forum.
      6. You asked for help. Your headline sucks, there's no big idea and you can't close a barn door.
      7. Hey, man, no need to be a rude twat. All opinions from now on should be HELPFUL.
      8. I am helping you. It stinks. Here are two good ideas that have worked for me.
      9. Whatever, dude, I'll show you. Anybody else want to actually HELP?
      10. Etc.

      Two months later....

      1. Please RIP APART my sales copy!
      2. OK, it still sucks.
      3. Etc.
      The same points presented in this list are visible in almost all threads about criticizing a sales letter.

      In this situation, the business owners may prefer the opinion of the 'kind' newbies who will agree with them, instead of listening to the unpleasant criticism of the experts.

      Many times something that doesn't work into practice seems to be the ideal solution based on a theoretical perspective. If ten newbies will agree with the supposed 'ideal solution', the opinion of two or three experts (who will say the opposite) will be disregarded.

      Why should these experts waste their time trying to convince the business owners that the right solution is not what they think? ...And discuss with the stubborn newbies who will keep defending what is wrong? They will probably abandon these threads instead of trying to open the eyes of the business owners.

      There are many complications. This is why I believe that it will really be better if the newbies won't complicate everything even more. They may be helpful sometimes for one reason or another, but this is probably rare.






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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    You do it because it's right. You do it because you love helping people succeed. You do it because you love to.

    I'm not getting paid for this. It's because I want to, pure and simple.

    Yes, there will always be things that may logically seem like they'd make the most sense. That's why it's common for more inexperienced people to stick together. If everyone agrees with me, if others are doing the same thing, this must be right. That's a persuasion tactic for another day, though.

    Newbs should contribute. They should also be prepared to take what they get, positive and negative. That's the only way growth happens in the game called life.

    If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.
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