Can A Non-Sleazy Dating Sales Page Work? Critiques Please!

29 replies
Hey Guys,

I've been following the forum for a while now, but this is my first-ever post. The amount of talented people in this forum is incredible, and I hope you'll let me tap into that knowledge to get my page converting (Thank you in advance!) (I did read the Chris Ramset checklist before posting)


I've been a dating coach for over 4 years, and I've helped guys all over the world find success-- because I actually care about giving good, useful advice (which most don't)

My Product: I just launched my first-ever product on Clickbank: TinderRockstar (http://www.tinderrockstar.com). It's a guide teaching men how to get huge results (and reach their dating goals) using the dating app Tinder.

My Problem: The dating niche is JAM-PACKED with the sleaziest and most ruthless sales tactics you could imagine ("Get laid in 3 hours" "Date 10 different women"), and most of the products out there are full of terrible advice...I'm finding it hard to compete without using sleazy tactics.

My Questions:
1) Will you guys critique my sales page (because it hasn't converted in ~150 visits)
2) Any ideas how I can compete against the sleaze without dropping to their level?


Thanks everyone!
#affiliate #critique #critiques #dating #nonsleazy #page #sales #sales page #tinder #work
  • Profile picture of the author pewpewpewmonkeys
    The dating niche is JAM-PACKED with the sleaziest and most ruthless sales tactics you could imagine ("Get laid in 3 hours" "Date 10 different women"),
    How is that a sleazy tactic and not a sleazy market?

    I mean, if certain guys WANT to get laid in 3 hours (surprise surprise) then the line isn't a "tactic" tricking men into something.

    I'm finding it hard to compete without using sleazy tactics.
    If you are selling to a different group (guys who aren't looking to get laid) (whaaaaat), then you're not competing, you're in a different niche.
    "The simplest, most effective way to double..."
    Oh, like Double Your Dating...

    Btw, 0 x 2 = 0
    At first, I thought it was a fluke…
    But then almost every guy I showed started getting BIG results too.
    But before I tell you about it, tell me if this sounds familiar:
    So you're selling a muscle gain product?


    Other than the fact that your product deals with tinder, you don't really show why it is any different or better than all the other dating advice guides out there.
    Signature
    Some cause-oriented hackers recently hacked one of my websites. So I researched what they're about and then donated a large sum of money to the entity they hate the most.

    The next time they hack one of my websites I'm going to donate DOUBLE.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9339328].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Tim R
    It all depends on what you mean when you talk about 'sleazy' tactics. You can still appeal to the market without making false promises and creating unrealistic expectations.

    If you're referring to sleazy though as mentioning sex or getting laid with different women then you're going to have a tougher time competing.

    At the moment your sales page is very sterile. You're not getting to the core of what guys really want. Tinder is a hook-up app. Guys want to use it to get laid, plain and simple. You keep referring to meeting girls and having dates, but this is a disconnect to what they're actually looking for. Sure, some guys want to use it to date, but the end goal is they want to get women into bed. Does your product address this? It doesn't look like it.

    I don't think showing your contents page is helping. First thing I see is 47 pages, so immediately I'm thinking this is $1 a page, for what seems like pretty standard information. It just confirms that the whole process ends with setting up a date, there's nothing about how to go from Tinder to the bedroom.

    Your price point seems fairly high for this niche considering what other people are offering. Other products might have lengthy video or audio footage, in-field clips, bonus books etc. for the same price or less than your product. A Facebook group, that is likely to have little or no activity, is not much of a bonus. There is another book competing against you that is nearly double the length and nearly half the price. Just saying.

    You haven't done a good enough job of establishing credibility and creating interest to the point where buying your book is a no-brainer. You haven't even told people who you are.

    You're missing a lot of the fundamentals of copywriting here.

    Another issue could be the source of your traffic. Where are people coming from and what are they expecting to see?

    Overall needs a lot of work, good luck with it though.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9339604].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Will guys pay $47 for a guide to using the Tinder app? It would want to be DYNAMITE advice wouldn't it? It would want to get results. I would need to be convinced thats it's worth the money... that it works. And even if it did... with a 60 Day Refund period... in that market I think you would be getting a lot of refunds.

    Nonwithstanding that... there's no dirty great big smack-you-in-the-face hook is there? Your head is this -

    The Simplest, Most Effective Way to DOUBLE (Maybe Triple) Your Success On Tinder TONIGHT



    The “Insider” Techniques Average Guys Are Using To Get WAY More Matches, Messages, and Dates

    Note the "maybe". Why on earth would you put a "doubt" word in the headline? You're just setting yourself up for failure right there.

    You'd be better off doing a Vin Montello-style headline.

    "Butt-ugly guy with god-awful halitosis and a stutter stumbles across a Tinder Hack that has him hooking up with more Drop-Dead Gorgeous 10s than you can shake a stick at".

    And guy... you haven't begun to convince me and yet you stick a buy button in my face from the off. Which makes me think you don't want to help me hook-up with girls - you just want my money.

    And white on black...for a dating site? Don't think so.

    There's lots of other stuff - where's your mug shot for starters - why should I trust you? - but I get paid good money for this kind of advice.

    That whole "rockstar" thing has been done to death.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9339639].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author keithb89
    I think your page looks pretty good and I'm glad you're trying to take the "high road" when it comes to marketing your product. In fact, why not make this a part of your pitch. For example, "Are you sick of dating help products that make outrageous claims like, 'Get laid in 3 hours'? We can't make that guarantee, BUT we can help you to optimize your chances of finding the ideal partner." Or something like that...
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9339920].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Tim R
      Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

      I think your page looks pretty good and I'm glad you're trying to take the "high road" when it comes to marketing your product. In fact, why not make this a part of your pitch. For example, "Are you sick of dating help products that make outrageous claims like, 'Get laid in 3 hours'? We can't make that guarantee, BUT we can help you to optimize your chances of finding the ideal partner." Or something like that...
      No, nothing like that. No offense, but it's terrible.

      You need to understand the market and what they're looking for to write copy that connects with them.

      If you were talking to a friend and telling him about this cool app to help him get girls, would you tell him it'll help him 'optimize his chances of finding his ideal partner'?

      Exactly.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9339994].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by Tim R View Post

        No, nothing like that. No offense, but it's terrible.

        You need to understand the market and what they're looking for to write copy that connects with them.

        If you were talking to a friend and telling him about this cool app to help him get girls, would you tell him it'll help him 'optimize his chances of finding his ideal partner'?

        Exactly.
        Personally, I hate the dating niche. I feel you on the sleaze factor. But listen to Tim (or Mal) on this one.
        Signature

        Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9340317].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author gjabiz
          Two points. The markets. The buyers.

          Clickbank success comes from getting affiliates who want to make money. They want a product which is easy to sell. So, you have to write so your potential affiliates want to promote your product. Look at your "sleaze" competition to see what this market wants.

          Then, the actual buyer. LOSERS.

          Have you ever attended one of those Speed Seduction, Get Laid, Instant Lothario seminars where guys pay hundreds of dollars (or more) HOPING to get 'lucky".

          See all the chubbies, the skinnies, the tall gangly, the geeky looking, homely, big ears, big nosed, thin lipped, tiny hands, the shy...

          the bashful, the dopey, the runts, the wallflower...see all of those LOSERS?

          Now, the fact is...

          They aren't. Most are decent guys, albeit LONELY.

          But LOSER is what they see when they look in the mirror.

          Even if they look like Brad Pitt, they may be self conscious about having red hair, or because they wear glasses. The minutia little flaws we all have become magnified in their minds.

          The reason those other "dating" type products are flying off the shelf is because...they sell HOPE,

          They take the LOSER reader into the world of Winners, they offer up an experience only dreamed about, they come to the table with a hunger, they want to believe it is possible, they gladly pay for their hope.

          they don't give a crap about Tinder, unless it will take them into this world of success. It sounds just as "gimmicky" and sleaze as the NLP pitches, the magic words, the secret to reading a woman's mind BS which has made other marketers fortunes.

          So, where do you address their fears, their insecurities, their desires,

          In that world, these guys don't want to find MATCHES, that would mean they are dating losers like themselves. They want to get THE girl.

          If I wanted a lot of responses, my Tinder pitch might be simple, like...

          Lonely millionaire wants dance, travel and dinner companion. Why not you?

          My Tinder account would burn up the Net.

          I agree with pew pew, you are either IN or OUT of this niche. My opinion is you have a tough row to hoe.

          gjabz

          PS. I do think there is a better market where you don't compete with the dating thing, but rather with the guys looking for a mate, not a bunch of them. But, good luck, it sounds like you are a decent guy who really wants to help....but you're up against the Great Whites of marketers who just want to make money...and they do.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9340397].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author keithb89
        Originally Posted by Tim R View Post


        If you were talking to a friend and telling him about this cool app to help him get girls, would you tell him it'll help him 'optimize his chances of finding his ideal partner'?

        Exactly.
        My point was that he should have a mission statement for his business that matches his own ethics/moral code. If the guy isn't sleazy, then don't run a sleazy service. I would also argue that taking a classy approach with dating service would help you to stand out from all the sleaze. I will admit it would be harder than just screaming "SEX,SEX, SEX!!!"

        Believe it or not, there are a few gentlemen still around.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9343154].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
          Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

          My point was that he should have a mission statement for his business that matches his own ethics/moral code. If the guy isn't sleazy, then don't run a sleazy service. I would also argue that taking a classy approach with dating service would help you to stand out from all the sleaze. I will admit it would be harder than just screaming "SEX,SEX, SEX!!!"

          Believe it or not, there are a few gentlemen still around.
          You missed the point. The point was language.

          Would you use the word "optimize" when casually talking to a friend about dating? I'd hope not. I'm surrounded by word nerds and English majors on a daily basis, but we save the $5 words for academia.
          Signature

          Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9343308].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author keithb89
            Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

            You missed the point. The point was language.

            Would you use the word "optimize" when casually talking to a friend about language? I'd hope not. I'm surrounded by word nerds and English majors on a daily basis, but we save the $5 words for academia.
            Wow. I'm just spitballing ideas at the guy; trying to be constructive and encouraging instead of tearing him down. Maybe 'optimize' is a bad choice, but its in the vein of taking a classy approach. If you're going classy, a few '$5 words' might be suitable BTW.
            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9345739].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
              Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

              Wow. I'm just spitballing ideas at the guy; trying to be constructive and encouraging instead of tearing him down. Maybe 'optimize' is a bad choice, but its in the vein of taking a classy approach. If you're going classy, a few '$5 words' might be suitable BTW.
              No, if you're being arrogant and pedantic, you use $5 words. Class is more doing the right thing and having integrity than it is language.

              If you're talking to a buddy about helping him find the love of his life, you don't really talk about "optimizing" his dating.
              Signature

              Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9345895].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Jonwebb
                Wow. I'm just spitballing ideas at the guy; trying to be constructive and encouraging instead of tearing him down. Maybe 'optimize' is a bad choice, but its in the vein of taking a classy approach. If you're going classy, a few '$5 words' might be suitable BTW.
                I agree with angie....

                intent means more then verbiage.

                it comes down to knowing your market, its OK to take a high road or whatever ( btw just because a guy wants to get laid doesn't make him any less classy or a gentlemen) its getting your market to take the high road with you its the key. because this is such a targeted product he is gonna have to rethink his approach
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9345993].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author keithb89
                Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                No, if you're being arrogant and pedantic, you use $5 words. Class is more doing the right thing and having integrity than it is language.

                If you're talking to a buddy about helping him find the love of his life, you don't really talk about "optimizing" his dating.
                I'm trying to be constructive. You're calling me arrogant and pedantic (<-which isn't a $5 word apparently). I feel bad for "word nerds" and English majors around you who are obviously constantly being judged.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9346054].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                  Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

                  I'm trying to be constructive. You're calling me arrogant and pedantic (<-which isn't a $5 word apparently). I feel bad for "word nerds" and English majors around you who are obviously constantly being judged.
                  I called you no such thing. But good to know you're easily riled when someone disagrees with you.
                  Signature

                  Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9346097].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Tim R
                  Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

                  I'm trying to be constructive. You're calling me arrogant and pedantic (<-which isn't a $5 word apparently). I feel bad for "word nerds" and English majors around you who are obviously constantly being judged.
                  Keith, Angie was not calling you arrogant and pedantic. She's saying that when people use these clever-sounding words it makes them come off that way, so you want to avoid them in sales copy.

                  The reason we're pointing out to be careful of what words you use is that often here on WF someone will get specific feedback and run with it, changing their copy word-for-word to what was suggested.

                  We're all trying to be constructive here, but sometimes to do that you first need to be destructive. You can't build a luxury condo on top of a granny flat, first you gotta tear that sucker down.

                  The current sales page doesn't need a new paint job, it needs to be built on the right foundations.
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9346129].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
              Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

              Wow. I'm just spitballing ideas at the guy; trying to be constructive and encouraging instead of tearing him down. Maybe 'optimize' is a bad choice, but its in the vein of taking a classy approach.
              When it comes to critiques, bad advice with good intentions is ultimately destructive, not constructive. When you give advice based not on experience, but your own projected values, you're not helping - you're distracting.

              Boiled down, your advice is that more sophisticated, "classier" language = a solution to the OP's present conundrum. Not because it sells better, but because it's more in line with a gentlemanly moral standard.

              That may be what the original poster wants to hear - because he's thinking along the same lines - but it's not what the market predictably and profitably responds to. That's a fact, proven by many millions of dollars worth of wallet votes from the market itself.

              Spitballing an idea or two with an obligatory "Nice job" or "Looks good..." costs you nothing. You get to feel good about "helping" somebody out and go on about your business.

              But bad advice can be very costly to someone who starts off down a rabbit hole that ultimately fails to solve their problem. That just leaves them even more confused or frustrated...

              What happened? Did they do it wrong? Is it something else?

              Down another rabbit hole they go...

              THAT's why you're catching flack.

              So, now you know.
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9346435].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author keithb89
                Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

                Spitballing an idea or two with an obligatory "Nice job" or "Looks good..." costs you nothing. You get to feel good about "helping" somebody out and go on about your business.

                But bad advice can be very costly to someone who starts off down a rabbit hole that ultimately fails to solve their problem. That just leaves them even more confused or frustrated...

                What happened? Did they do it wrong? Is it something else?

                Down another rabbit hole they go...

                THAT's why you're catching flack.

                So, now you know.
                How is that bad advice? I'm just trying to offer an alternate point of view by saying, yes a dating site that doesn't focus on sex could work. Is that such an outrageous thing to suggest? I think an alternate point of view is a good thing --and avoids groupthink.

                And spitballing ideas is one of the things were supposed to be doing on here right? Giving specifics is great, but spitballing is good too. I mean this is supposed to be a marketplace of ideas. I could just agree with what everybody else is saying, but I don't think that adds to the conversation.
                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9355546].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author Tim R
                  Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

                  How is that bad advice? I'm just trying to offer an alternate point of view by saying, yes a dating site that doesn't focus on sex could work. Is that such an outrageous thing to suggest?
                  The answer to your question lies in Brian's post (reread everything he wrote above the parts you quoted).
                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9355624].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                  Originally Posted by keithb89 View Post

                  How is that bad advice? I'm just trying to offer an alternate point of view by saying, yes a dating site that doesn't focus on sex could work. Is that such an outrageous thing to suggest? I think an alternate point of view is a good thing --and avoids groupthink.

                  And spitballing ideas is one of the things were supposed to be doing on here right? Giving specifics is great, but spitballing is good too. I mean this is supposed to be a marketplace of ideas. I could just agree with what everybody else is saying, but I don't think that adds to the conversation.
                  It's not about personal opinion, it's about what sells. There's nothing even remotely similar to Groupthink going on here. But there are several people who are experts in the field commenting and they're all saying the same things. That would lead me to believe they have a valid point.

                  Stubbornly holding your opinion instead of learning from those more experienced? Man, you're in for a long, hard road if this is the field you chose.
                  Signature

                  Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9357323].message }}
                  • Profile picture of the author keithb89
                    Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                    It's not about personal opinion, it's about what sells. There's nothing even remotely similar to Groupthink going on here. But there are several people who are experts in the field commenting and they're all saying the same things. That would lead me to believe they have a valid point.

                    Stubbornly holding your opinion instead of learning from those more experienced? Man, you're in for a long, hard road if this is the field you chose.
                    How do you know I have less experience? I've been professionally marketing at my firm for quite some time, and doing pretty well I might add -- especially for someone my age. You know there is a world outside of WF.

                    But whatever. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one...
                    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9358604].message }}
  • As you've gathered when you get into this niche you have to appeal to the more primal desires.

    You can do this - without being sleazy.

    Word changes can help - "laid" and "sex" can be "red - hot lust and passion" etc. etc.

    Pictures can show what you mean without actually saying it.

    One reason why much of this niche is seen as sleazy...

    It's the chaps who are prowling around trying to get the lassies into the sack.

    You can reposition this (yea, good word steve).

    And make it seem by using your "system" - the lassies will want to drag the chaps into the sack.


    Steve
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9340633].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
    Your copy and tone will differ depending on whether you're getting outsiders from nothing to something ("losers", as Gordon described) or getting insiders from good/decent to better (Opportunity seekers. Sex, like cash is a currency)

    I agree that the "stinking of perspiration, living in mom's basement, virgin" into "nailing runway models" is very dishonest. But the niche is saturated to the point where claims are getting louder.

    Or, you can take on a more earnest tone. Personally I like how GLL conveys a nuanced view of who he is, and I think his "normalcy" juxtaposes well with the "hype" he sells and endears him to his target audience. Even his name is self effacing. I've seen a bunch of his pickup videos, and he deliberately shows the ones that don't go well. And the ones that go well are often nothing fancy. He can inspire both the "power lifters/risk takers" and the basement dwellers to get off their asses.

    About Good Looking Loser - Updated Winter 2013 - Good Looking Loser

    "I'm a successful guy, but I've had deep internal struggles like you, and my stuff can help you conquer yours"
    Signature
    Marketing for ACTION & REACTION.
    Roll Out "The Cannon"
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9340731].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tandemsports
    Thank you everyone who has chimed-in so far.... I definitely feel like I just got an education in the reality of the online dating market.

    It seems that the higher-end clients that are coming to me in-person are a completely different animal from the ones that are buying online.

    I'm going to re-work my sales copy (because it's weak at best) and to try and connect more effectively with the people landing on my page. If that doesn't work, I may consider taking my name off it and trying a more aggressive approach.

    Though, when I see David Wygant's products (and the marketing around them) I do hold out hope that I can sell in a way I'm proud to put my name/face on.

    Thanks again guys --- I'm going to implement the suggestions you've all given and see if I can make something happen.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9340769].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Why not go sleazy? I think trying to "teach" a guy how to get laid is inherently sleazy. After all, no one can really help these guys but themselves, imho. You can't honestly be trying to help them, you're really just exploiting their vulnerability to separate them from their $$. ...So if sleaze works, sleaze it up!
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9343497].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Jonwebb
    I dont like the word sleaze... Sounds like something out of that awful movie swingers...

    anywho, I think the overall tone was fine but like others said the verbiage was a lil off.

    personally I was in the dating niche for a while and guys really just want to get laid. Granted there are some guys who want to find their soul mate, but those guys dont usually buy dating products online. The desperate guys buy.

    sell to the desperate, then educate (enlighten) them with your product.

    -Jon
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9344953].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Robert_Rand
    I don't know. Depends on what your version of "sleazy" is.

    Congrats on your new product - looks like you've done a nice job with it. Your offer needs some work though... Maybe for $7 but not $47. My philosophy for stuff like this, as in selling via direct response (not on Amazon, or for that matter, for use with any business model under the sun) is MORE. As in: more content, more value building, and more entertainment - with a better thought out *unique* value proposition. In other words, this would work nicely as a compliment to a video sales letter

    If you want to increase your conversions dramatically, that's how.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9344955].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author davemiz
    i've been in the niche since almost the beginning... selling for almost 10 years.

    you have a very niche product.... its literally like 3 levels deep... getting girls > getting girls online > getting girls online only using tinder.

    you've limited the pool of potential people you can sell to bigtime.

    so don't expect this to blow up massively.

    and the copy on the page needs a complete overhaul.
    Signature

    “Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.”
    ― Dalai Lama XIV

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9345569].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author tandemsports
    Hi everyone.

    Thanks again for taking the time to post in this thread. I've read all your comments and I'm going to try to benefit from the experience and input that each of you has offered.

    To give an update-- based on everything I've read here and the PM's I received, I'm creating a completely new page. There will be a short video at the very top followed by a more traditional long-form sales letter underneath. I'll be working with an actual copywriter to make sure the new wording/tone actually connects with the wants of my target audience.

    I'm hoping that will be a step in the right direction.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9354295].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Unfortunately, you've got two challenges:

    1. As you've pointed out, because of your competition, it won't work for the broad market.

    2. The copy you've got is not targeted enough for a specific market.

    To make it work with the integrity you want, you've got to target your audience.

    - Rick Duris

    PS: When I say target the audience, I mean who do you want to sell:

    • Young guys who just wanna get laid on a regular basis. No strings.
    • Guys who wanna be pick up artists.
    • Guys who who are struggling because they perceive themselves to be lacking in a specific thing (introverted, broke, less than attractive, not well endowed, not cool, etc.)
    • Guys looking for love, time to settle down, etc.
    • Guys who are middle-aged, looking for a second shot at youth.
    • Guys who hit the porn sites and are used to dirty words.
    • Older, rich guys who want some companionship, escort, etc.
    • Guys who are married and want some action.

    Are you starting to get the picture? I don't know how many exactly, but there are lots of subniches.

    If you took a look at all the dating sites out there, that will give you a clue.
    Signature
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[9355601].message }}

Trending Topics