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Hello Liz,
Personally I think I would need more information based on what you are specifically doing and have done in the past.

It would make more sense for someone who has had a lot of success like tripling sales, etc, etc. to charge more.

It also depends on the complexity of the project. If you don't know anything about the brand, audience it is serving it will take you longer. But if it's with something you are familiar with it might have less work and therefore charge differently.

Personally I would have my own terms in how I get paid, project by project basis. This would help both the client and me since I would not be overcharging them if it was an easier project or undercharging if it is a more difficult one.

Max

Elisabeth,

If you're a copywriter... than use those darn copy skills to get yourself a salary that's high enough to make it all worthwhile for yourself and your family.

Don't sell yourself short... because remember, YOU can return a lot of money for any company if you're good.

So, never just put out "I want X amount of money"

Instead... SELL them on why your salary is an investment and NOT a cost to them.

When you write a sales letter, you'll usually have a section in the letter that justifies that price.

Well, anytime you do salary requirements... sell them on why that's an investment and not a cost.

Show them how paying you $100,000 a year can make them 1 million a year... and back it up with numbers if you have them.

I remember a few years ago... landing a $10,000 client when all other bids he got from copywriters were $1,000 to $2,000.

And the only reason is... I was able to SHOW him how my fee was an investment and not a cost.

Back it up with numbers, proof, etc...

So, for your specific situation... take the John Carlton school of pricing... in that "things are worth what they're worth"

There's no right or wrong answer.

Why does one car cost $12,000 and another $100,000.

It's the perceived value.

So, when doing your salary requirements... SELL them on a high enough number that could make them shudder a bit... but yet back it up with plenty of reasons why.

PROVE to them that this outrageously high salary is well worth it, because you'll return 100 times that over the course of the year.

Once you sell them on the fact your super high salary is an investment that can return MUCH more... and you back it up with your past success/proof... you will stand out.

I've hired a lot of copywriters... and most just say "I want this" for salary.

Those that give me a number and then back it up with reasons why they are worth that... they tend to get the job.

Oh, and by the way... if you happen to stay in freelance... you may want to look at Harlan's Value Based Copy program. Not sure if he still has it or not.

For me, going through Harlan's VBC program when I first started doing freelance made a HUGE difference in what I sent out for fee requirements... simply because I framed everything I said as being an investment that added value... not a cost.

Hi Elisabeth,

I'm happy to have inspired you in some way! We definitely need more ladies on this board and in this field.

If you want to cut your teeth in a salaried position, there are advantages and disadvantages to consider, and only you'll know what's right for you.

Advantages:
-you'll be paid to learn instead of paying to learn
-depending on your location, companies really fight for copywriting talent (which means higher salaries). My coworker was poached from a global retailer and relocated out to the Bay Area to join our team.
-You may get to work with a copy manager/copy chief/creative director with amazing experience that can help shape your work and relearn your thinking process
-depending on where you work, you may get to be super creative with pitches for campaigns, PR stunts, etc.
-Health insurance!
-If you know where to look, you can add some pretty impressive stats to your portfolio

Disadvantages:
-it's a desk job, definitely
-some jobs don't have performance bonuses attached to the base salary
-you may not like the team, the creative director, or other partners within the company but you'll still have to work with them
-less freedom to choose the types of projects you want to work on. I'm a pretty vocal broad, so I fight for projects that intrigue me, and pretty much anything I can use to demonstrate my numbers
-deadlines are deadlines are deadlines. Stopping the presses for work that needs to be printed and distributed just doesn't happen unless there's some major reason. Reversing course that late costs a shit load of money
-like client work, the deadlines can be super tight, forcing you to produce whether you're inspired or not

That said, everything Shawn said. All of it.

My company had a salary figure in mind that was on par with the average here. I asked for more. I got more. I knew what I needed to make it worth my while, and while I really wanted the job, I wasn't about to be low-balled. My perks are pretty nice, and the whole department has laptops. Sometimes I take one of the other copywriters somewhere out of office and we write in the sunshine just for a change of pace.

And I have VERY little time for freelance work. The projects I select/go after are things I'm super interested in, which is nice.

I spend time outside the office recharging. I sing in a rock band, play dodgeball, and recently decided to try my hand at being a derby girl.

Whatever you decide, make sure you're building in time to recharge that creative well. Don't let anyone try to overdraw you. That well is the source of your creative power, so guard it with your life. Plus, you never know what random thing will spark THE big idea. So if you do go for the desk job, make sure you don't chain yourself to it, ya know?

That's for a full time job.

When you're working freelance the hourly rate is higher than what you'd be making in a full time job for two reasons:

1. When someone hires you full time it's like they're buying your labor "in bulk." So the overall rate is lower, same way you pay less when you buy a physical product in bulk.

2. In-house staff don't get paid by *billable hour*, they get paid by number of hours in the office. The total rate is diluted because it's assumed that they won't be "on task" every minute of the day.

As a freelancer, if you're working with *legitimate* clients (i.e. established entrepreneurs, major agencies, big IM companies like agora) you would typically charge $50-$75 an hour.

That said, it really depends on where you're looking for work.

If you're talking about places like freelance sites or Warrior Forum, the overall rate will be a lot less than what I described above, because many of your clients will be "newbies" who don't have any budget to speak of.

In the long run, if you want to make "professional" rates as a copywriter, you need to use one of the following strategies:

1. Position yourself as a marketing consultant and go direct to the clients that agencies work with. There's no reason you need to work under another copywriter and make half the rate they're billing you out at. If your skills are good you can go direct to the clients who need marketing services.

2. Work with bigger agencies in big cities. This somewhat goes against point one but I still stand by it because rates tend to be a bit higher in bigger markets.

3. Promote your own offers. Become an affiliate and literally work for yourself, no clients at all.

Elisabeth, how much money is going to make you feel inspired to do your best work?

Be honest with yourself. (And it doesn't have to be a lot. It may just need to be steady income.)

Personally, I find if I'm making a Client a lot of money and I'm not getting a piece of the action, I get resentful. That negativity unconsciously bleeds over into my writing.

Not good.

In a previous life, early on in my career, I was a software consultant. Corporate Fortune 500 software consulting is interesting when it comes to compensation.

Generally speaking, the consultant gets a third, the sales guy gets a third and the company gets a third.

When I found out how I was carrying others, and how they got the lion's share of the revenues, I quickly got resentful. Ultimately, I quit, started my own firm, keeping 100%.

Even more so today, I am aware of my feelings when it comes to compensation. To keep my energy and emotions clean and focused, I use compensation as a tool to inspire me to do my best work.

It sounds rather crass when I say it so bluntly, but it's not in reality. I coach Clients right up front if they want to get the best out of me, please don't be stingy. I'll move mountains on their behalf if I'm being treated right.

I know they get the message when they come back with "So is this enough money?" When I hear them say that, it's music to my ears. It means they're looking at the situation from my perspective.

That's when I know it'll be a win/win relationship.

I realize my experience may not be particularly helpful here, Elisabeth. Because my situation is not the norm. But my question to you I think is valid:

How much money would inspire you to do great work for your employer?

You don't have to answer us. You have to answer to yourself.

- Rick Duris

I have a sick little obsession with applying for copy jobs. I LOVE going through the application/interview process.

While I was looking for a web designer, I hit up an outfit on Madison Ave. They were WAY too much for a website, but I ended up talking with some key people and inquired about doing freelance work for them. They weren't interested. But they got to see my work in Basecamp. And asked if I'd be interested in a "possible" position.

I said no. But curiosity got the best of me. I asked what they pay. I was actually shocked. It was good money. The problem was, no backend.

I was honestly tempted. Just for the experience alone, it would be a blast. And to spend time in New York? Forget about it.

I couldn't though. Backend is where it's at. All it takes is a couple really hot projects that convert and receive tons of traffic to completely change your life. PASSIVE INCOME.

You've gotta be bringing in passive income... or you'll always be working to pay next months bills.

I also feel resentful if I don't have a taste of the profits. It makes the hard work... harder work.

I find that when I thinking like an owner, rather than a paid hand, the way I go about the whole project shifts. The process is different.

It would be difficult to feel that way... if I'm just getting a set salary. Even with health insurance, paid vacation, sick days... yadda yadda yadda.

I will say...

As a freelancer, the taxes are hell. I used to put aside 20%. Now, I put away 35%. it's a big chunk. And while I don't want to get into the politics of it, you've gotta integrate being sodomized by the IRS into the equation.

Mark

P.S. What Angie said also needs to be integrated into the equation. You can't be someone's workhorse. You've gotta make as many deposits... as withdraws... creatively speaking. I took my sig off because I don't want any more business. And I have a hard time turning away good money. So I'd rather just not have the opportunity. Or I will push too hard. It's just something I know about myself.

Know thyself.

This question comes up all the time.

I made this video a year ago for my 3000th post, and it explains how to price projects so you and the client are both happy:

Monetizing the Problem - YouTube

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If you leave that decision to others. There's a whole whack of idiots out there who will tell you what they will pay you for creating them sales copy. Everyone wants that long sales letter, direct mail piece, email for pennies, few are willing to pay good money.

Rates can change according the amount of work involved ( research, going through a product, type of project etc )

Also you can tell them that you made XYB for client A but that means little to them. As XYB client may have had a lot more going for them ( social proof, credibility, decent product ) than the guy who thinks his product is the next best thing since sliced bread.

That's why spitting out conversion rates and how much you made for a previous client means very little in this world.

Like Carlton said. You got to go out there, hone your craft, take on some crappy projects and in time you will be able to command the high pay day. You might not get it, but you are at least in a better position to get it.

I think Shawn hit it on the head --- don't sell yourself short. You're the copywriter, let them know the value of working with you to surpass their revenue goals and work only with clients who are convinced YOU are the one they need to work with.

Good luck!

People in this life fail, not because they reach too far and miss.
But because they reach too short and hit.

<3
James

I was tired of working hard and having very little to show for it. I decided what I was worth and what my time was worth and went from there. Now I won't take a job that pays less than $40 per hour. Once I factor in time talking to the client, advertising taxes, etc. I need to make a good chunk per hour.

Never sell yourself short. That means something different to everyone, but just keep in mind that if you are good at what you do, people will pay for it.