75 replies
How does you go about getting a mentor?

Can anyone suggest the best place to look? Or perhaps there is someone here who would be prepared to mentor me?

My experience and background is stage and screenwriting with limited copy writing for theatre fliers/posters and press releases and some student paper article writing.
#mentor
  • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
    Most people who know what they are doing are busy people.

    There are probably people here that could mentor you.

    But your post says very little about what's in it for them.

    Copy 101 - talk about your reader, not so much about you.
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    • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
      Originally Posted by JohnRussell View Post

      Most people who know what they are doing are busy people.

      There are probably people here that could mentor you.

      But your post says very little about what's in it for them.

      Copy 101 - talk about your reader, not so much about you.
      Too funny John.... your post showed up right when I posted mine... since you said it perfectly, I wouldn't have even needed to post... so I'm glad he's got a few folks reinforcing the most important thing he failed to address!
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
        Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

        Too funny John.... your post showed up right when I posted mine... since you said it perfectly, I wouldn't have even needed to post... so I'm glad he's got a few folks reinforcing the most important thing he failed to address!
        That is funny. Call it social proof.
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        • Are you a professional copywriter with extra time to spare?

          Are you experienced with an impressive portfolio?

          Would you like to mentor someone and build up your life coaching portfolio?

          PM me now with your proposals.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Are you a professional copywriter with extra time to spare?
            Yes

            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Are you experienced with an impressive portfolio?
            Yes

            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Would you like to mentor someone and build up your life coaching portfolio?
            Maybe copy coaching - certainly not life coaching.

            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            PM me now with your proposals.
            No.

            I don't think you quite get it yet.
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          • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Are you a professional copywriter with extra time to spare?

            Are you experienced with an impressive portfolio?

            Would you like to mentor someone and build up your life coaching portfolio?

            PM me now with your proposals.
            What are you bringing to the table? Here's an example:

            I'm currently being mentored by someone who has had huge success writing copy in multiple niches...

            He brings that experience and some added teaching qualities...

            I bring a hungry drive to learn, ambition, reasonable expectations and $5000 up front.

            I'm not there to build up his profile... the guy makes enough money writing copy... I know he's the real deal.

            Signature

            Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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          • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Are you a professional copywriter with extra time to spare?

            Are you experienced with an impressive portfolio?

            Would you like to mentor someone and build up your life coaching portfolio?

            PM me now with your proposals.
            This is not about your audience. This is still about you.

            YOU want someone with these qualifications and YOU are ASSUMING they want to take time out of their busy schedules to draw up a proposal for you.

            Doesn't work that way.

            P.S. Copywriting mentoring =/= life coaching.
            Signature

            Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

    How does you go about getting a mentor?

    Can anyone suggest the best place to look? Or perhaps there is someone here who would be prepared to mentor me?

    My experience and background is stage and screenwriting with limited copy writing for theatre fliers/posters and press releases and some student paper article writing.
    Alberto, you made one of the biggest mistakes in sales and copywriting.

    Your thread is simply what's in it for you... you didn't sell anyone here on WHY they'd want to mentor you.

    It was all written to get you what YOU want... when you should have listed all the reasons someone would want to mentor you.

    #1 rule in copy... it's not about you, it's about your audience... so tell us why we'd want to mentor you.

    Not trying to be a d*ck... but if you want to succeed in this biz and beat out a lot of competition... everything you write should address what's in it for your intended reader.

    Just hammer that home and you'll be better off in your writing... what does my audience want, and not ME as a salesperson.
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  • Profile picture of the author Raydal
    About 7 years ago I got a letter in the mail from an upcoming
    copywriter asking for extra work I could pass on to him.
    It was BRILLIANT. I don't think that he wrote this
    himself but it was a swipe. It was persuasive and I did
    think twice about taking him on.

    I don't know if any other copywriter may know the letter
    I'm referring to. I tried to save it but can't place my hand on
    it now. I know this is pretty sketchy but perhaps someone
    may know this letter.

    -Ray Edwards
    Signature
    The most powerful and concentrated copywriting training online today bar none! Autoresponder Writing Email SECRETS
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  • Alberto,

    We actually "get" what you are saying.

    You want and no doubt are willing to pay (splutters…there would be no f***** point asking for free help) - for a mentor.

    You know what - it is is a fair enough question.

    And you might think some of the replies have been a bit harsh.

    None of us can put our hands up and say "Go on then, wire us $7,500 plus and we'll get started"

    It's just not the done thing on the forum.

    And discovering how to be a copywriter and yes it is easier with a mentor - IS tough.

    So I'm hoping you're not peeved with the tough replies.


    Steve
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    • Profile picture of the author KreativCopy
      Jeez guys....cut the guy some slack. He asked a totally valid question and now is getting bounced around the park for it.

      Stick in there Alberto, I am sure someone will come along soon to be your mentor.
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      • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
        Originally Posted by KreativCopy View Post

        Jeez guys....cut the guy some slack. He asked a totally valid question and now is getting bounced around the park for it.

        Stick in there Alberto, I am sure someone will come along soon to be your mentor.
        If you look through the replies... you'll see that every single one who posted DID indeed give valuable feedback when it comes to copywriting and selling.

        And that is to SELL why someone would want to mentor him. This is a copywriting forum, so it's a valid point to advise him to start there.

        What John, Chris, Angie, and others advised him was actually true, and valuable.

        And in my opinion, more helpful than telling someone to "stick in there"... which offers nothing of help.
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        • Profile picture of the author KreativCopy
          Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

          If you look through the replies... you'll see that every single one who posted DID indeed give valuable feedback when it comes to copywriting and selling.

          And that is to SELL why someone would want to mentor him. This is a copywriting forum, so it's a valid point to advise him to start there.

          What John, Chris, Angie, and others advised him was actually true, and valuable.

          And in my opinion, more helpful than telling someone to "stick in there"... which offers nothing of help.
          I get where you are coming from...and I am not doubting that the guidance given is useful...but it all seems a bit 'tough love' to me. And 'sticking in there' is imo a message of moral support and thus helpful.

          Fortunately, this is an open forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion.
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        • Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

          If you look through the replies... you'll see that every single one who posted DID indeed give valuable feedback when it comes to copywriting and selling.

          And that is to SELL why someone would want to mentor him.
          This is a copywriting forum, so it's a valid point to advise him to start there.

          What John, Chris, Angie, and others advised him was actually true, and valuable.

          And in my opinion, more helpful than telling someone to "stick in there"... which offers nothing of help.
          Lol. Isn't that like asking the customer to convince the merchandiser to sell me his product?

          I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?

          Quite frankly, and with all due respect, if you're not interested in mentoring me, you ought not be wasting both my valuable time and yours by posting in this thread.
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          • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Lol. Isn't that like asking the customer to convince the merchandiser to sell me his product?

            I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?

            Quite frankly, and with all due respect, if you're not interested in mentoring me, you ought not be wasting both my valuable time and yours by posting in this thread.
            A more accurate comparison would be the vendor selling the merchant on buying (and reselling) a product. You need to remember that a mentor can also vouch for you if you're good enough, pass work off to you when they're swamped or not interested in taking a particular project.

            You'd do well to treat this as the partnership it is, and not like price is the only thing out there.

            Yes, you are a buyer in the technical sense. You're also a product that needs to be sold. If you have nothing of substance to offer a mentor besides money, you might have difficulty.

            Unless your pockets are pretty bottomless. I'm fairly certain there are plenty of mentors that just care about that money, honey.

            But truth be told, you should be working with a mentor you WANT to work with, otherwise you may just get nothing out of it but a lighter wallet.

            That said, you got excellent advice. You find someone you admire, you hit them up with an offer they can't refuse, and BAM. Mentee.
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            Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

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          • Profile picture of the author Andrew Gould
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Lol. Isn't that like asking the customer to convince the merchandiser to sell me his product?
            A recent Jay Abraham "sales" letter.
            Signature

            Andrew Gould

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            • ..................
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              • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
                Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

                Looked, felt and tasted like a sales letter and I tuned out as soon as I read 'only blah blah were invited'.

                Today I read in Ogilvy's On Advertising:

                "In advertising, the beginning of greatness is to be different, and the beginning of failure is to be the same."

                Now which one of you sons of bitches has the balls to mentor me?

                Present PM applicants excluded from this tirade.
                The balls?

                Okay grasshopper, since you asked...

                What are your expectations and what are you willing to bring to the table Alberto?

                I'm not available to take on anyone new, but I have a membership site that has everything you need to get started. I just added a forum and will be responding to a lot of the inquiries until the numbers get bigger.

                But you know, 99% of the work is going to be up to you. That's true with ANYONE. Hell, I have people jump through a few hoops before I even consider them...just to see if they've got the hustle.

                If you're ready to put your money and your actions where your mouth is, you might just get somewhere in the next 6 months.

                So now, let me ask you...

                Have YOU got the balls?
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                • Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

                  The balls?

                  Okay grasshopper, since you asked...

                  What are your expectations and what are you willing to bring to the table Alberto?

                  I'm not available to take on anyone new, but I have a membership site that has everything you need to get started. I just added a forum and will be responding to a lot of the inquiries until the numbers get bigger.

                  But you know, 99% of the work is going to be up to you. That's true with ANYONE. Hell, I have people jump through a few hoops before I even consider them...just to see if they've got the hustle.

                  If you're ready to put your money and your actions where your mouth is, you might just get somewhere in the next 6 months.

                  So now, let me ask you...

                  Have YOU got the balls?
                  I could sit here and tell you I have the balls but there is only one way to find out. Take me on and mentor me and I will show you brass balls that you have never seen before. Just give me one chance!

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                  • Profile picture of the author ThePromotionalGuy
                    Alberto,

                    I'll ask you one question. There is only one correct answer. If you can answer this question correctly I will send you a quote to mentor you.

                    In the Boron Letters Gary Halbert states the only advantage he wants to beat the pants off his competition is a starving crowd.

                    What advantage does a Mentor want?

                    Remember there is only one correct answer. Take your time and think about it. When you think you know the answer post it here.

                    If the answer is correct expect a PM from me. If you do not receive a message from me then you know your answer is incorrect.

                    Those are my terms. Let's begin.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?
            The clients are the ones with the cash.

            You do realize that a home-run sales letter can make you $100K or more? Much more actually. Top guys make $1 million a year and more - just writing copy.

            So what can you provide a mentor worth his salt that would make him want to divert his attention away from the prize?

            I'd be leery of any 'mentors' chasing me just to pocket $5K or whatever.

            It's not just about money for most people.

            Money aside...you have to appeal to other emotions to get the right mentor.

            So far, you don't seem to be trying to do that.

            Anybody chasing you is probably not somebody worth learning from. Certainly they don't understand anything about positioning.

            So...you have to think:

            What could I offer a mentor - other than money alone (cause the clients certainly have more money than I do) - that would make them want to mentor me?

            That's if you want to be mentored by a professional. If you want the guy who PMs you and sells you the hardest, you're probably going to be disappointed in your results.
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          • Profile picture of the author Chriswrighto
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Lol. Isn't that like asking the customer to convince the merchandiser to sell me his product?

            I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?

            Quite frankly, and with all due respect, if you're not interested in mentoring me, you ought not be wasting both my valuable time and yours by posting in this thread.
            Think of any successful person...

            Richard Branson is the first that comes to my mind...

            Is he really going to convince you to come under him? To LEARN from his years of experience? To cut tens of years from your learning curve?

            Same goes for successful copywriters.

            So, what do you bring to the table Alberto?
            Signature

            Wealthcopywriter.com :)

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          • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?
            You've got to be kidding.

            You THINK you're the one with the cash.

            The truth is, I know where the cash is. I know how you can go get it...over and over and over. That's what mentoring is.

            Now you tell me, where is the REAL money?

            Is it the chump change you're offering to your potential mentor...OR, the loads of cash you'll earn every week, for the rest of your life as a result of working with a mentor?

            Like I said, if you've got the balls to take action and want to become a member of my site, I'll show you how to get to a full time income in the next 3 to 6 months. BUT, I have 3 conditions:

            1) Do EVERYTHING I tell you to do. if you don't, I'll stop talking to you and come on THIS THREAD and tell everyone that you didn't have the balls you claimed to have.
            2) You agree to let me publish your results as a case study on this forum.
            3) You complete an initiation assignment, which I'm 99% sure you won't want to do.
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            • Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

              You've got to be kidding.

              You THINK you're the one with the cash.

              The truth is, I know where the cash is. I know how you can go get it...over and over and over. That's what mentoring is.

              Now you tell me, where is the REAL money?

              Is it the chump change you're offering to your potential mentor...OR, the loads of cash you'll earn every week, for the rest of your life as a result of working with a mentor?

              Like I said, if you've got the balls to take action and want to become a member of my site, I'll show you how to get to a full time income in the next 3 to 6 months. BUT, I have 3 conditions:

              1) Do EVERYTHING I tell you to do. if you don't, I'll stop talking to you and come on THIS THREAD and tell everyone that you didn't have the balls you claimed to have.
              2) You agree to let me publish your results as a case study on this forum.
              3) You complete an initiation assignment, which I'm 99% sure you won't want to do.
              Ok. Please direct me to your site.
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              • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
                Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

                Ok. Please direct me to your site.
                Not so fast.

                How about you start by telling everyone your real name?

                You have a LinkedIn or Facebook page that proves you're a real person and not some trickster playing a gag on everyone?

                Do that, and I'll send you a PM with the details.
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                • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
                  Scene #1:

                  Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

                  You've got to be kidding.

                  You THINK you're the one with the cash.

                  The truth is, I know where the cash is. I know how you can go get it...over and over and over. That's what mentoring is.

                  Now you tell me, where is the REAL money?

                  Is it the chump change you're offering to your potential mentor...OR, the loads of cash you'll earn every week, for the rest of your life as a result of working with a mentor?

                  Like I said, if you've got the balls to take action and want to become a member of my site, I'll show you how to get to a full time income in the next 3 to 6 months. BUT, I have 3 conditions:

                  1) Do EVERYTHING I tell you to do. if you don't, I'll stop talking to you and come on THIS THREAD and tell everyone that you didn't have the balls you claimed to have.
                  2) You agree to let me publish your results as a case study on this forum.
                  3) You complete an initiation assignment, which I'm 99% sure you won't want to do.
                  Scene #2:

                  Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

                  Ok. Please direct me to your site.
                  Scene #3:

                  Originally Posted by sethczerepak View Post

                  Not so fast.

                  How about you start by telling everyone your real name?

                  You have a LinkedIn or Facebook page that proves you're a real person and not some trickster playing a gag on everyone?

                  Do that, and I'll send you a PM with the details.
                  Final Scene:

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          • Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Lol. Isn't that like asking the customer to convince the merchandiser to sell me his product?

            I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?

            Quite frankly, and with all due respect, if you're not interested in mentoring me, you ought not be wasting both my valuable time and yours by posting in this thread.

            The thing is every pro copywriter spent a mint and thousands of hours discovering how to write copy.

            For me it was a passion and a business decision.

            And after 28 years in the game I've spent over $137,000 on courses, seminars, books and dvd's.

            So really it's my money and time that is used if I was a mentor.

            Any mentoree only pays a fraction of it.


            Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
            Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

            Lol. Isn't that like asking the customer to convince the merchandiser to sell me his product?

            I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?

            Quite frankly, and with all due respect, if you're not interested in mentoring me, you ought not be wasting both my valuable time and yours by posting in this thread.
            Free Mentoring:

            Grab that ego of yours by the throat and choke the life out of it...

            Then start over understanding that as an apprentice/mentee you're not in the driver's seat - you're paying for a ticket to come along for the ride.

            There will come a time when that pride and hubris will serve you well, but now is not that time.

            Good luck,

            Brian
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      • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
        Originally Posted by KreativCopy View Post

        Jeez guys....cut the guy some slack. He asked a totally valid question and now is getting bounced around the park for it.

        Stick in there Alberto, I am sure someone will come along soon to be your mentor.
        Harsh reality:

        Time = money.

        Successful business owners (and copywriters) have very little time to waste.

        This is kind of one of those industries where you have to stand up and make shit happen instead of asking for a hand up. That is how you prove you've got what it takes.

        Copywriters prospect. Copywriters push boundaries. Copywriters fail over and over again and discover success along the way.

        This is simply part of the process. If you think it's harsh, welcome to business.
        Signature

        Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

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        • Profile picture of the author KreativCopy
          Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post


          This is simply part of the process. If you think it's harsh, welcome to business.
          I have been in business for a while, and I know from first hand experience how hard it can be...perhaps I am just naive to think the world works better when we all help each other in a less harsh manner.
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          • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
            Originally Posted by KreativCopy View Post

            I have been in business for a while, and I know from first hand experience how hard it can be...perhaps I am just naive to think the world works better when we all help each other in a less harsh manner.
            Frankly I wish I'd had a little more tough love and a little less sunshine and rainbows. Guess it's different strokes for different folks.
            Signature

            Aspiring copywriters: if you need 1:1 advice from an experienced copy chief, head over to my Phone a Friend page.

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            • Profile picture of the author KreativCopy
              Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

              Frankly I wish I'd had a little more tough love and a little less sunshine and rainbows. Guess it's different strokes for different folks.
              Indeed...I think it is you know. I was just thinking about a guy I used to work for over 20 years ago (yikes!) and he always sent my work back with everything crossed through...at the time it was soul destroying...but in fact in hindsight (what a wonderful thing)..he taught me so much and I am grateful to this day for his guidance.

              On the other hand, I also worked for another boss at another company who criticized everything I did, even though I was getting huge results...but he never actually taught me anything (apart from a few tips on passive aggression)...So I think it depends on the person and the personality.
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    • Originally Posted by Steve The Copywriter View Post

      So I'm hoping you're not peeved with the tough replies.


      Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author DylanCoogan
    I've never seen the word "balls" so much in one thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    Are you wanting a mentor or to be a copy cub?
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  • Contrary to what others are saying here,,,there are top copy guys who have mentorship programs.

    Mentorship under the right person can cut your learning curve dramatically.
    But it does cost money...and it can get very expensive.

    I know some guys who spent a fortune to become great at copy but still have no clients to show for it.
    after spending thousands of.$$;

    I'd pick someone who is where you want to be and contact them looking for mentorship.

    Talk to past students of you can.
    Signature
    "Peter Brennan is the real deal, In the first 12 hours we did $80k...and over $125k in the first week...if you want to be successful online, outsource your copywriting to Peter"
    Adam Linkenauger

    For 12 ways to sell more stuff to more people today...go to...www.peterbrennan.net
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
    Be prepared for a refund request...you can see this one coming from a hundred miles away.
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    • Profile picture of the author ewenmack
      Alberto,

      This may give you inspiration to keep going
      in the face of rejection.

      It comes from Barbara Corcoran
      when she was rejected from being
      on The Shark Tank.

      At first she was approached to be on the show
      and the founder of it changed his mind.

      On getting the rejection email from his assistant
      she drafted up her response and ended up on the show.

      Here was her email...

      "Dear Mark,

      I understand you’ve asked another girl to dance instead of me.
      Although I appreciate being reserved as a fallback,
      I’m much more accustomed to coming in first.

      I think you should consider inviting both of us to LA
      for your try-outs. Here are my reasons why:

      I do my best when my back’s against the wall.
      I love the heat of the competition as I’ve learned it brings out my best.
      I’ve had all my big successes on the heels of rejection and frankly,
      it’s right up my alley. There was Sister Stella Marie in 5th grade
      who said I’d always be stupid just because I couldn’t read.
      Then there was the New York old boy network trying to lock me out
      of their real estate fortunes, until I became their largest competitor.
      Then there was The Donald himself who wrongly swore in court I’d never
      see a penny of the $4m commission he owed me for saving his ass
      and making the largest land deal in the city’s history.
      And of course there was my ex-partner Ramoné Simoné who parted with the words,
      “You know you’ll never succeed without me!” I consider your rejection a lucky charm.

      If you have both ladies in LA, you can mix it up a bit and see which personalities
      make the best combination for your show. I’ve found in building teams myself
      that the combination of personalities is always more important than the expertise
      or strengths of single individuals. You may even drop a man for me because,
      believe it or not, I’m just as smart and mean as the next guy.

      Last, I’ve known from the get-go the Shark role is a perfect fit for me
      Everything I’ve done so far in the business and TV worlds has made me ready
      My style is different than the other Sharks’ and your audience would fall in love with me
      I’ve watched thirty-seven Dragon episodes so far and know I could rival the best Shark
      on each show in shrewdness and personality. It seems to me that the same two Sharks
      steal most of the shows and I know I’d be one of them.

      The reputation you have in your field is equal to the reputation I have in mine,
      Mark. I know you’re the best at what you do and I trust you’ll reach the right decision.
      I’ve booked my flight for the 6th and hope to be on that plane.

      Thanks, Barbara"

      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Best,
      Ewen
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    I get hit up by newbies looking for a mentor every-so-often. I'm sure a handful of us get approached by the same people.

    I've tried to help. But I don't have the time.

    I'd want to create an organized program... not just do stuff willy-nilly.

    I think Angie said it in this thread (sorry if I'm wrong)...

    Time is money.

    If a newbie copywriter wants me to help him or her make a quantum leap, it's gotta be worth my time... which means money. Lots of money.

    Alberto, this is your 3rd thread. You've made some noise here on the forum.

    But if you're serious about working with a mentor who's actively developing and establishing controls, $5,000-a-month is on the low end.

    Think about it...

    If you excel quickly; if you're as good as you think you CAN be, you'll graduate to copy cub in a hurry.

    From there...

    You can be charging $1,500, $2,500, $5,000+ - if you keep building on the skills you'd learn from a mentor who's awesome at teaching this stuff.

    I hope you find what you're looking for.

    But a word of advice...

    If you're gonna do it, sack up and pay the big bucks. Otherwise, you're wasting your time and money.

    This is an investment, which means, it'll be giving you a return for a LONG time to come.

    And also...

    What Brian said;-)

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author max5ty
      Originally Posted by Mark Pescetti View Post


      If you excel quickly; if you're as good as you think you CAN be, you'll graduate to copy cub in a hurry.

      Glad you said that.

      I was beginning to wonder if I was so out of touch with things I was confusing mentor with copy cub. That's why I asked him what he was really looking for.

      I always considered a mentor as someone that took you from knowing nothing and worked with teaching you the fundamentals. A rather lengthy and involved process. Made me wonder why someone would make a price offer on being a mentor...and wondered if they were thinking copy cub.

      A copy cub usually has the fundamentals down. Usually when I see someone asking for copy cubs, they ask for an example from the candidates to judge their level of possible success. I don't think they charge the copy cub to work with them. Usually, they already have customers and need a protege to help carry the work load.
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      • Profile picture of the author splitTest
        Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

        I always considered a mentor as someone that took you from knowing nothing and worked with teaching you the fundamentals. A rather lengthy and involved process. Made me wonder why someone would make a price offer on being a mentor...and wondered if they were thinking copy cub.

        I was thinking the same thing. What on earth can a mentor do for you that someone who takes you on as a "copy cub" can't?

        I mean, if you're too untalented and unmotivated to learn the fundamentals of the craft on your own, a mentor is not going to help.

        And isn't "paid mentor" a bit of an oxymoron anyway? A mentor is typically someone who sees some special talent in you, so he takes you under his wing in order to "give back" or something of the sort.

        Mentors don't generally do it for pay. Plain ol' instructors do it for pay. AIWA is a better bet if you've got thousands of dollars to spend for instruction. And it won't even cost you thousands of dollars.

        To the O.P., here's my 2 cents:

        If you're looking for someone to hook you up with clients, I can understand that. As a newbie, getting those first clients can be an intimidating hurdle. Someone who takes you on as a "copy cub" can help you with that, feeding you work, building your portfolio, showing you how to pursue clients, and giving you the confidence to get them on your own.

        That kind of help will be invaluable, especially if you plan to specialize.

        ... But no one's gonna teach you much of anything about copywriting in general that you can't learn on your own. You're going to rise to the level of talent you belong on your own.

        I'd advise saving your money, get a day job if you don't already have one, read the classic books and follow the advice you have right here on this forum about getting clients, selling your own products, etc.

        Then take your best work and try to finagle that into a gig as someone's "copy cub" if you want that. Unless you can find a real "mentor" in the classic sense, you're your own best mentor.
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  • Profile picture of the author DougHughes
    I'm not sure what exactly you are looking for or expecting Alberto.

    I will give you sound advice, and there is a possibility (depending on how our conversation goes) perhaps of some kind of arrangement.

    At any rate, and even though time is money, I am not so busy, nor my ego so large I can't spend a few minutes on a phone call pointing you in the right direction.

    If you want to discuss things click my signature link and call the number during regular business hours 8-5 Pacific Time and we'll have a chat.
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  • Profile picture of the author JamesDLayton
    If I were a top drawer copy monster like some people here. And I were considering a trainee.

    The up front cash would be a thing. (Just to weed out the flip flops)
    The percentage of everything they write would be a thing. (Again to see if they're thinking serious...... long term).

    But if..... if I were in a position to train someone. I would be looking for ONE thing.
    A little spark that suggests they are going to be just great at what I teach them.

    And in 25yrs when I'm laying in the sun sipping something chilly. I open a magazine and see a sales letter by them. And think.

    Huh.....I trained that little sh1t. Taught him everything he knows.

    Then take a nap with a weeny little smirk on my lips.

    James

    P.S - I could be wrong.... but I think THAT feeling is important to all of us isn't it? That we're important and made a difference.
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    • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
      Originally Posted by JamesDLayton View Post

      If I were a top drawer copy monster like some people here. And I were considering a trainee.

      The up front cash would be a thing. (Just to weed out the flip flops)
      The percentage of everything they write would be a thing. (Again to see if they're thinking serious...... long term).

      But if..... if I were in a position to train someone. I would be looking for ONE thing.
      A little spark that suggests they are going to be just great at what I teach them.

      And in 25yrs when I'm laying in the sun sipping something chilly. I open a magazine and see a sales letter by them. And think.

      Huh.....I trained that little sh1t. Taught him everything he knows.

      Then take a nap with a weeny little smirk on my lips.

      James

      P.S - I could be wrong.... but I think THAT feeling is important to all of us isn't it? That we're important and made a difference.
      BINGO.

      And for that ^ little scenario to take place, the mentee has to have a real name-O.
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  • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
    Huh... So, common wisdom here is the most desperate are often the most flakey. If so, that's a shame.

    I contacted my first mentor at a time when I was broke, feeling lost and trapped. His arrangement was to train me for free then take a portion of our future collaborative earnings.

    $5,000 upfront? Couldn't do it. Not just to be cheap- I didn't have disposable income, and I own few enough things as is. I wasn't gonna sell my car or guitar for it.

    But I was honest and upfront about my goals, and made it clear I was willing to do what whatever he said. I blew through his lessons, and within 3 months I was hanging up my shingle.

    So a glimmer of hope for all the broke SOB's out there. When chips are low, 3 H's - humble, honest and hard working- can still score you some points with the right sort of mentor.

    Don't screw it up though, and harden his heart to future mentees. That's an order, private.
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  • I understand the sentiments on this thread and how this must look. I did hope that this thread would be buried and forgotten about but it just doesn't seem to go away.

    In my desperation I may have bitten off more than I could chew with this thread. I came here because I wanted to learn copywriting to earn money not to pay out what little I have. The truth is I just don't have the resources to pay for a mentor or the $99 per month for Seth's site. Even $50 per hour has me worried about my finances.

    I can barely cover the rent in my current job hence the desperation to find a career that I can utilise my writing skills and start making some decent money. I thought I could do a crash course and then go out there and start making the big bucks but I now know it doesn't work like that. It took me over twenty years to learn how to write a screenplay and even now I would not say I had mastered that craft and I know copywriting will be no different. Part of me asks why I think I would be a success in a field I have no experience in when I wasn't a success in the field I did have experience in so I am in a bit of a quandry as to what I should do. Continue with the scriptwriting or hit the delete button and start up something new.

    So until then I'm just teaching myself reading books until I have a better idea how to do this. Apologies for wasting anybody's time and I hope you can understand my position.
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  • Profile picture of the author TracyBelshee
    Alberto, don't give up. I completely understand the finances issue myself and decided that I need to commit to at least some up front costs.

    Continue looking through this forum as I have and use all the free tools you can find that are littered throughout all the threads. These guys and gals have been a great resource and VERY encouraging.

    If you can take some of the advice and even make small sales, maybe you could reinvest that in some of the training that is relatively affordable. Look at the training as tools of the trade.

    When I was a chef/cook, knives were tools. Most jobs require at least some basic tools you provide for yourself, so think of it as a tool of your trade. Just be wise about the tools you buy.

    If I run across good free things, I'll send them your way if you are interested.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    @ Alberto

    hang in there kid. Not everyone here is beating their chest and being a jerk. I'll give you a hand. PM me and start by sending me ...or pointing me to something you've written.

    And you other guys... pathetic. You get a kick out of big-noting yourself? I don't care if the guy calls himself Santa Claus. He wants to learn. Here's his original post...
    How does you go about getting a mentor?

    Can anyone suggest the best place to look? Or perhaps there is someone here who would be prepared to mentor me?

    My experience and background is stage and screenwriting with limited copy writing for theatre fliers/posters and press releases and some student paper article writing.
    And then you assholes eat him alive. For shame. You were there once.
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  • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
    Definitely don't give up, Alberto.

    I think most advice here came from a position of trying to help, even if they seemed really harsh.

    My personal story is very similar to yours. Working in LA, got laid off from my sucky job at a big name network, always hustling and participating in 20 writers' groups trying to succeed "the right way", whatever the **** that means.

    There's no right way. You'll make your own. You just need to not give up.

    If you'd like to chat a little more, hit me up via PM.
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    • Profile picture of the author KreativCopy
      Alberto - you have writing skills, they just need honing in a different direction to be a copywriter.

      In actual fact, there are lots of writing jobs out there, it doesn't have to be 'pure' copywriting either.

      All you really need at the end of the day, in any profession, is belief in yourself. That thing between your ears is the most powerful tool you will ever have.

      Personally, as I think I said before in a previous post, I think you have been treated a little harshly here (but most probably with good intention).

      In a year's time - you will probably look back at this thread and think 'Man...look how far I have come'. Keep on truckin'....it'll be worth it
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  • Profile picture of the author KreativCopy
    Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post


    My experience and background is stage and screenwriting with limited copy writing for theatre fliers/posters and press releases and some student paper article writing.
    Just looking back at your original post...you have oodles of experience in theatre fliers etc...then stick with your passion...what you know. You have a niche here...that's a huge head start.
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
    You are going to have a hard time finding a real mentor if you can't pay them. There's not many people who are going to spend any substantial amount of time helping you for free or a small amount of money. Why would they?

    And don't say because they should give back I guess if they have too much times on their hands which usually means there not in demand in the first place.

    Keep studying the good copywriting books and start offering your services.
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  • Profile picture of the author ahakimi
    You need to learn to sell. That'll solve a lot of your problems.

    I'm talking in all aspects. In life. Selling is life. Persuasion.

    If you don't get good at selling, you won't get what you want.

    If you can learn to sell effectively and become a master at it, you would be able to get yourself a mentor.

    If you can learn to sell effectively and become a master at it, you will be able to come up with the money to attend training courses.

    The possibilities are endless. But you've got to also be creative. Learning to Sell + Being Creative = results.

    Having money would help your case in this example, it gives power. But not always the type of power that you NEED. I'm talking about the "good stuff." Long term.

    The type of power that you NEED and want, is the power to sell, persuade, selling yourself, selling people. Anyone with money can "buy" themselves a mentor. What happens when you don't have money? You come on a thread and use the complete wrong approach to try and get a mentor. And SINCE you don't know how to sell, no one ain't gonna help you. Now you're screwed.

    Learn to sell my friend. If you knew, you would have came on here and sold people to mentor you.

    Learn to think big; expand your mind, and most importantly, take massive action. Study people, as in not only "successful people", but I mean people as in human behavior, psychology, persuasion. All that good stuff.

    I think that's great that you have experience in writing. You have the technical skill.
    But now you need to look at the big picture and learn the other side of things.
    Reminds me of people work their asses off in college to get one degree. They graduate with their bachelor's, get a great job, and that's it. They're narrow-minded, stuck in one field. They don't have the ability to think outside the box, open their minds, and look at the big picture. They're programmed, brainwashed into a limited way of thinking. They see no other way but to work for a corporation - They just want to be told exactly what to do and do it. They know no other way. Throw them on the street to fend for themselves, and they won't know jack shit what to do. That's because, despite spending 10 years learning to be a surgeon, that doesn't mean shit if they don't know how to SELL.


    Learn to sell. That's the root of your problems. You seem like a great writer. I'm not sure where your mind is, but if I was in your shoes, I would be SELLING SELLING SELLING my writing skill, and making some money from it, then I would invest that money into training/books. Once you're "there", trust me, you will get your mentors. Because you will then know how to align with them, and you know the game.

    Forgive me if I'm kind of all over the place, I tend to get lost in thought and rant away sometimes. But I hope you get something from this.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jennifer Hutson
    Tough crowd, huh?

    Sure, Alberto may have gone about it the "wrong" way, but that doesn't mean there weren't nicer ways of telling him so.

    As a fellow writer, it is embarrassing to see the elitist mentality of some writers on this site. It gives the rest of us a bad name and is rather depressing.

    Yes, you all worked long and hard to earn your credentials and certainly deserve the recognition. No one is debating that.

    But instead of doing the holier-than-thou thing, why not try helping another human being who is in the same position you undoubtedly were when you first started out?

    You know, giving him some legitimate advice instead of chastising him for nothing short of bowing down and worshiping you in his post?

    A little humility goes a long, long way.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
      Originally Posted by Jennifer Hutson View Post

      Tough crowd, huh?

      Sure, Alberto may have gone about it the "wrong" way, but that doesn't mean there weren't nicer ways of telling him so.

      As a fellow writer, it is embarrassing to see the elitist mentality of some writers on this site. It gives the rest of us a bad name and is rather depressing.

      Yes, you all worked long and hard to earn your credentials and certainly deserve the recognition. No one is debating that.

      But instead of doing the holier-than-thou thing, why not try helping another human being who is in the same position you undoubtedly were when you first started out?

      You know, giving him some legitimate advice instead of chastising him for nothing short of bowing down and worshiping you in his post?

      A little humility goes a long, long way.
      Why don't you name the people you are talking about?

      It doesn't help much when you make generic posts like this and nobody knows who you are talking about.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jennifer Hutson
        Originally Posted by JohnRussell View Post

        Why don't you name the people you are talking about?

        It doesn't help much when you make generic posts like this and nobody knows who you are talking about.
        Racking off a list of individual names would solve absolutely nothing - you and I both know that.

        For you to suggest that my point is confusing unless I personally call out every person who was harsh in this thread is just silly
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnRussell
          Originally Posted by Jennifer Hutson View Post

          Racking off a list of individual names would solve absolutely nothing – you and I both know that.

          For you to suggest that my point is confusing unless I personally call out every person who was harsh in this thread is just silly
          Not really.

          I think most people were trying to be helpful. If you called out who you felt was not being helpful then we could defend ourselves at least.

          Besides...do you think the OP should be given that much slack?

          I don't think anyone has explicitly pointed it out but...

          He said in post #20:

          "I'm the one with the cash. Shouldn't you be trying to convince me why I should take you on as a mentor?"

          Then in post #48 he said:

          "In my desperation I may have bitten off more than I could chew with this thread. I came here because I wanted to learn copywriting to earn money not to pay out what little I have. The truth is I just don't have the resources to pay for a mentor or the $99 per month for Seth's site. Even $50 per hour has me worried about my finances. "

          I don't feel badly for him at all.

          He got a lot of good free advice and some much needed tough love.

          Mostly I find it ironic that you use a holier-than-thou attitude to accuse [some vague people] of being holier-than-thou.
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          • Profile picture of the author sethczerepak
            This will be my last post on this thread as, according to the OP, he wants the conversation to be over and I'm not wasting any more time on this discussion.

            A few people have made comments about the attitude of myself (while I wasn't specifically mentioned, I know how to read between the lines) and some of the other regular experts on here.

            Apparently, you're misunderstanding our motives. Quite a few of us have offered our help to someone who apparently isn't even willing to:

            1) Invest anything into hiring a mentor (I offered him a measly $99 a month for my training site for God's sake).
            2) Reveal their true identity.

            Okay, so maybe #2 doesn't matter....but if you're asking someone to put their reputation on the line by mentoring you, I think it does. That's my opinion. There has to be SOMETHING in it for the person doing the mentoring, and when the person asking to be mentored is broke (but ironically, still bragging about how they're the "one with the cash"), being able to say "I helped ____ to become a full-time writer (a result which I would have been willing to guarantee BTW...IF he'd been willing to do the work)," would be a decent trade.

            But you can't do that when someone is hiding behind anonymity. Not to mention that this forum, and this entire industry, has had it's share of issues with people setting up ruses and cheating other people out of their hard earned time and money. My request was simple: take off the mask and invest a little money into yourself.

            Show us all that you mean business.

            In my opinion, anyone who's not willing to do what it takes to START isn't going to put in the ongoing effort either. If you don't have money, friggin' PANHANDLE, borrow it, use a credit card, live off mac and cheese for the first month.....at least until you get your first job. But do SOMETHING to help yourself and to get started.

            Obviously, he wasn't willing to even do that...which means this was all hot air and a waste of time and energy EVERYONE who offered their help.

            I'm sure there will be plenty of heated rebuttals to this, but that's my final say on it. Any reasonably smart person knows that there's a world of difference between saying that you want to learn and being willing to do what it takes.
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Welcome to the board, jen. Great discussions, but copywriters will be copywriters...
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    • Profile picture of the author Jennifer Hutson
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      Welcome to the board, jen. Great discussions, but copywriters will be copywriters...
      Thanks, Split. I agree with you on the many great discussions around the forum, I however must politely disagree on the whole "copywriters will be copywriters" thing.

      Everyone deserves a bit of common decency.
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  • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
    Being mentored is not about being made to FEEL good... it's about being made to BE good.

    Some of the precious flowers posting in this thread wouldn't last a DAY with the people I've had the good fortune to learn from and study under in music and business.

    And even though I'm considered by many to be an expert at what I do, I STILL know my role when it comes to learning from those higher up the food chain.

    They kick my ass relentlessly and thoroughly... and I'm grateful for those opportunities to get thrashed so effectively. I always learn something from it - often something powerful that pushes me irreversibly forward on my own personal scale of potential.

    The same thing happens with critiques here...

    An experienced hand at the wheel tries to help a noob avoid hitting the wall with a rust-bucket of a promotion and, like clockwork, a chorus of "you guys are so mean!" posts devolve the conversation down to a Stuart Smalley skit.

    Grow up, people.

    Money's on the line... yours, your client's and the customer's.

    The marketplace is far more cruel and unforgiving than any forum poster could ever be.

    I'm out...

    Brian
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    • Profile picture of the author ahakimi
      Originally Posted by BrianMcLeod View Post

      Being mentored is not about being made to FEEL good... it's about being made to BE good.

      Some of the precious flowers posting in this thread wouldn't last a DAY with the people I've had the good fortune to learn from and study under in music and business.

      And even though I'm considered by many to be an expert at what I do, I STILL know my role when it comes to learning from those higher up the food chain.

      They kick my ass relentlessly and thoroughly... and I'm grateful for those opportunities to get thrashed so effectively. I always learn something from it - often something powerful that pushes me irreversibly forward on my own personal scale of potential.

      The same thing happens with critiques here...

      An experienced hand at the wheel tries to help a noob avoid hitting the wall with a rust-bucket of a promotion and, like clockwork, a chorus of "you guys are so mean!" posts devolve the conversation down to a Stuart Smalley skit.

      Grow up, people.

      Money's on the line... yours, your client's and the customer's.

      The marketplace is far more cruel and unforgiving than any forum poster could ever be.

      I'm out...

      Brian
      Brian McLeod posted 2 posts I believe in this thread.
      He's hit the nail on the head both times, exactly on point.

      Are you REALLY looking to dominate in copywriting and become a success? Or are you just thinking about it and debating/asking for opinions on forums?

      The truth is, if you're truly HUNGRY and will not stop until you reach where you want to reach, you will do what it takes. Tough lovin' included. You will take it all in. You will be hungry for all the information you can get. You will throw yourself into the deep end and thrive.

      If you don't get things right and in line now, if you can't handle some valuable posts on here, if you're getting butthurt about what someone tells you (not saying you are, but just an example), it's only a matter of time before the market place will wipe you out anyway.
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  • Profile picture of the author ChadHaynes
    If you can't handle some blunt feedback on a forum, you can't handle copywriting or this industry - in my rather less experienced opinion.

    I scored a contract / internship type deal at an ad agency recently, and I have to tell you, if you can't take pressure or quickly internalize the lessons behind blunt feedback, you've got no chance. I'm 3 days in, and already it's expected that I figure out how to be helpful, how to prioritize several tasks, how to delegate, set up my office, etc.

    And I love it. I really, truly love it. I'm an obsessive weirdo who's found a place where my hyperactive and overly decisive qualities are at home.

    Is it for everyone? F no. I'm not saying I'm better or any such nonsense, I just feel I'm right for it. I'm working on work stuff right now actually, at home, without any further prompting, because it's fun for me to nail it.

    I've also signed up to Seth's course and I'm working my way through that material, because I can't get enough. I'm too busy consuming information to give a crap what's happening on a forum.

    This post isn't me, me ,me. What I'm saying is, if you're reading this and you can't understand where I'm coming from or you don't like what I'm saying, then maybe the advertising / marketing industry and copy isn't for you.

    Hell, it might not be for me either. I'm too new to TRULY know, but I know that being unable or unwilling to go the extra mile and CRUSH expectations without any prompting isn't a good start.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Nuh. You guys miss the point. As Kreativ said early -
    Jeez guys....cut the guy some slack. He asked a totally valid question and now is getting bounced around the park for it.
    In fact... here's his first post -
    How does you go about getting a mentor?

    Can anyone suggest the best place to look? Or perhaps there is someone here who would be prepared to mentor me?

    My experience and background is stage and screenwriting with limited copy writing for theatre fliers/posters and press releases and some student paper article writing.
    The rest of his posts were downright silly - but it was in response to what you lot were serving up. I'm all for "tough love" - as you know - go read some of my posts. I even told one guy to "go kill yourself" - but then went on to give him some invaluable advice - and he thanked me for it.

    It's obvious he knows nothing about copy. It's obvious his writing so far won't help him much. And it's obvious he can't afford to pay even $99 a month. And why should he? Thats not the spirit of true mentorship.

    Yes, you are a bunch of nasties. I wish the guy well and hope he rubs your faces in some stunning copy some time soon.
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  • Profile picture of the author shawnlebrun
    I don't have a dog in this fight...

    But all I know Mal.... is this forum is WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY
    the f**k better with you here.

    And I know any seasoned writer on this forum would agree...
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    • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
      Banned
      Originally Posted by shawnlebrun View Post

      I don't have a dog in this fight...

      But all I know Mal.... is this forum is WWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYY
      the f**k better with you here.

      And I know any seasoned writer on this forum would agree...
      It's like this Shawn...I don't need the money...I don't need the work...and I don't need the aggravation. I've been doing copy for a long time. It's hard. I still bleed all over the keyboard. Stupid really - I should just let it go. But I know one thing... I still see myself as a gormless 16 year old high school kid...desperate to get away from a dysfunctional family...knocking on the doors of all the top Ad Agencies...and getting rejection after rejection - until I copped a break.

      I know something of this kid. I know why he won't reveal his name. I feel his pain. He needs a leg up - not a bunch of smartasses eating him for breakfast. I've lost respect for some of you for the way you've treated him. Like I said - for shame. I hope you have a rethink and help him out. What's it going to cost you?

      And I hate to say this...but maybe it will resonate with some of you. Frank Kern would never treat someone like this. Think about that. Maybe that's part of his success huh?

      You guys and your frigging egos. Thats the problem.

      But yeah Shawn - once again I just feel like giving up on this forum.
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      • Profile picture of the author ThePromotionalGuy
        As you all know I only posted once in this thread.

        Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post

        Alberto,

        I'll ask you one question. There is only one correct answer. If you can answer this question correctly I will send you a quote to mentor you.

        In the Boron Letters Gary Halbert states the only advantage he wants to beat the pants off his competition is a starving crowd.

        What advantage does a Mentor want?

        Remember there is only one correct answer. Take your time and think about it. When you think you know the answer post it here.

        If the answer is correct expect a PM from me. If you do not receive a message from me then you know your answer is incorrect.

        Those are my terms. Let's begin.
        The purpose of my post was to prequalify the OP. There was no disrespect on my part towards the OP.

        Those that I have mentored or trained in my lifetime are always given a chance to help themselves. At no time did the OP try. Had he tried, I may have still reached out.

        But one thing I do not tolerate is laziness. Not attempting to answer a question, right or wrong, tells me you are not serious. Due to his lack of trying, I had no choice but to discount his interest in copywriting.
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        • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
          Banned
          Originally Posted by ThePromotionalGuy View Post

          As you all know I only posted once in this thread.



          The purpose of my post was to prequalify the OP. There was no disrespect on my part towards the OP.

          Those that I have mentored or trained in my lifetime are always given a chance to help themselves. At no time did the OP try. Had he tried, I may have still reached out.

          But one thing I do not tolerate is laziness. Not attempting to answer a question, right or wrong, tells me you are not serious. Due to his lack of trying, I had no choice but to discount his interest in copywriting.
          And you wonder why he doesn't answer? I wouldn't answer that. For starters, nobody knows who you are or what you've done. Why don't you lay your cards on the table before asking to see his? God almighty...the complete arrogance of this post.

          And its no wonder he didn't respond to any of you after the mauling he got after asking a couple of innocuous questions.

          So here you go "Promotional Guy" - dazzle us with your work. I'm ready to be humbled.
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          • Profile picture of the author ThePromotionalGuy
            Mal,

            I've been a business owner for a very long time. Too long in some instances. I have hired men and women just on a gut feeling.

            I simply asked a question and required nothing else. Any HR department would have made him jump through hoops.

            He chose not to try. A man/women who won't even try says a lot about a person.

            You call it arrogance, so be it. I'm a business man first.

            Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

            And you wonder why he doesn't answer? I wouldn't answer that. For starters, nobody knows who you are or what you've done. Why don't you lay your cards on the table before asking to see his? God almighty...the complete arrogance of this post.

            And its no wonder he didn't respond to any of you after the mauling he got after asking a couple of innocuous questions.

            So here you go "Promotional Guy" - dazzle us with your work. I'm ready to be humbled.
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  • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
    Interesting thread.

    There is a powerful strain of survivorship bias on the forum, with regard to the "right way" a person is allowed to get started and get good. People who sucked dirt on the way up seem to think "who is this little punk, who thinks he can climb a ladder into the treehouse, instead of falling 25 times climbing by hand?"

    Couple that with the folks affirming their own membership and you have a recipe for a nice healthy pile-on.

    There is also an etiquette to addressing the tribe, much like addressing any royalty. I don't blame Alberto for not knowing it.

    Anyway, the lessons for future "unworthy worms":

    1.) Prove it. If a mentor is going to be generous with his time, it is your job to show him he's not wasting it. If you can't convince him with words, you will have to put money down to show you have skin in the game.

    2.) Mind your language. Established copywriters see themselves as fire-breathing dragons, and you as a hairy little hobbit snack. "You are great, I am not, and I will do anything it takes to earn your favor". You can't echo this sentiment enough times, enough ways. Deviate from this script, and they'll be picking their fangs with your bones.
    Signature
    Marketing for ACTION & REACTION.
    Roll Out "The Cannon"
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
      Originally Posted by jjosephs View Post

      Interesting thread.

      There is a powerful strain of survivorship bias on the forum, with regard to the "right way" a person is allowed to get started and get good. People who sucked dirt on the way up seem to think "who is this little punk, who thinks he can climb a ladder into the treehouse, instead of falling 25 times climbing by hand?"

      Couple that with the folks affirming their own membership and you have a recipe for a nice healthy pile-on.

      There is also an etiquette to addressing the tribe, much like addressing any royalty. I don't blame Alberto for not knowing it.

      Anyway, the lessons for future "unworthy worms":

      1.) Prove it. If a mentor is going to be generous with his time, it is your job to show him he's not wasting it. If you can't convince him with words, you will have to put money down to show you have skin in the game.

      2.) Mind your language. Established copywriters see themselves as fire-breathing dragons, and you as a hairy little hobbit snack. "You are great, I am not, and I will do anything it takes to earn your favor". You can't echo this sentiment enough times, enough ways. Deviate from this script, and they'll be picking their fangs with your bones.
      Deadly aim and a vicious right hook you have, JJ.
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  • hey. the last thing i want is for you guys to fight amongst yourselves.

    @promotionalguy - i answered your question the day you posted it but removed it as i was worried it was too confrontational and because i wasn't really in a position to pay you so didnt want to waste your time. my answer was: there was no right answer as the question was designed to qualify me.

    yes i'm a pussy and a coward and i'm a lazy waste of space. but to be frank i heard a lot worse from my mother who used to tell me i was worthless and would amount to nothing so no surprise there hey?


    can we drop it now? i'm trying to read and my mentor, Aristotle, has some very interesting things to say in the original book on copywriting - Rhetoric.
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    • Profile picture of the author BrianMcLeod
      Originally Posted by Alberto Eisenstein View Post

      hey. the last thing i want is for you guys to fight amongst yourselves.
      A stale fart on any given Tuesday can get that going so... don't worry about it.

      to be frank i heard a lot worse from my mother who used to tell me i was worthless and would amount to nothing so no surprise there hey?
      The kindling of many a fire for greatness, brother. Use it...

      can we drop it now?
      Yep. Closing the thread.

      Everybody got their licks in methinks.
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