Tear My Sales Letter To Shreds

86 replies
I'll just get right to the point.

I hired a copywriter to do this sales page and I was told it was HORRIBLE.

So I got my money back and did the sales letter myself.

I know it sucks. I need to know WHY it sucks and HOW to fix it.

What's missing?
What should I take out?
What should I change?

I left out the header because I was told that sucked too and I haven't created one. I can't afford to hire anybody and I know anything I create will also suck. So I may just go without the header. I see many Clickbank sales letters have no header. Hell, most of them now are just a video with a little Easy Sketch Pro cartoon. I can't believe what I'm seeing at Clickbank today. The "great looking" sales letters are dead and gone.

Anyway, that's it. Like I said, tear it to shreds but don't just say it sucks. Tell me why and tell me how to fix it.

I need to make this work but I have to do it myself. I don't have 3 grand for a copywriter and my $97 effort was obviously a waste of time.

That's it. Let it rip!

Here's the URL:

Exercise Dance Beats — Exercise Dance Beats
#letter #sales #shreds #tear
  • Profile picture of the author quadagon
    I'll have a proper look later if i get the chance but what about a simple headline like

    Is your workout music making you fat?
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    I've got 99 problems but a niche ain't one
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by quadagon View Post

      I'll have a proper look later if i get the chance but what about a simple headline like

      Is your workout music making you fat?
      Okay, I'll try that.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Okay, somebody reminded me that you NEVER use purchase or buy in your sales letter so I removed all 13 instances of them.

        Would be nice if I had remembered anything I'd learned about copywriting over the years.
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  • Profile picture of the author Tim R
    Looks like you've put all of about an hour into it. Even though you were warned that the $97 job was going to be a waste of money, is it really worse than what you currently have?

    If you're still making changes to it, such as removing words and changing the headline based off of one suggestion, it's not really ready for a critique.

    Read Angie's post here http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...-help-you.html

    If you know it sucks then improve it. If you don't know how, read some copywriting books and look at some swipe files. Make it as good as you possibly can before asking for advice.

    At the moment I could spend longer writing out everything that is wrong with your sales page than you probably spent writing it.
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Steve, is this really what your market wants? Have you, has anyone for that matter, done the market research?

    You don't have to justify yourself if you have. I'm just failing to see how any health, fitness or workout oriented person would want what you're offering.

    I'm really failing to appreciate why or how your music can compare to for instance "The Rock" Dwayne Johnson's workout playlist...

    The Rock, Dwayne Johnson's Pain & Gain Workout Plan & Diet

    (Dwayne Johnson is a celebrity in the US. Movie Star. Athlete. Workout maniac. Admired by many in the fitness industry.)

    Especially when I can build my own custom playlists of popular music for practically nothing.

    I wanted to comment on your previous attempts, but I didn't feel qualified because I really don't know. I mean personally I workout and all, but I didn't connect with the music or appreciate how your music is preferable.

    That last statement is an opinion. Not a slight against you or your music.

    I just don't know who you're targeting. Why your offer is amazing. What the benefits are over other options. ETC. ETC. ETC.

    Again, this isn't a critique. I'm not ripping your piece to shreds. This is ONLY an opinion.

    I don't know. But my guess, looking at your page, is you don't know either. But if you could fill in the missing points, connect the dots, give us the logic, that would be great for others who want to help you.

    - Rick Duris

    PS: In my copywriting work, I study the market. It's an obsession. I wrote a blog post about this subject this week that may help you:

    How I Dominate Markets (And Get 20% Conversions) | CopyRanger.com

    PPS: Let me put it another way: If you're targeting women who are 10, 20 30 pounds (stones?) or more overweight, struggling to even try to workout and you think electronic 150+ bpm music is going to help them, to motivate them to do insane cardio... do you see anything off about this scenario?
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

      Steve, is this really what your market wants? Have you, has anyone for that matter, done the market research?

      You don't have to justify yourself if you have. I'm just failing to see how any health, fitness or workout oriented person would want what you're offering.

      I'm really failing to appreciate why or how your music can compare to for instance "The Rock" Dwayne Johnson's workout playlist...

      The Rock, Dwayne Johnson's Pain & Gain Workout Plan & Diet

      (Dwayne Johnson is a celebrity in the US. Movie Star. Athlete. Workout maniac. Admired by many in the fitness industry.)

      Especially when I can build my own custom playlists of popular music for practically nothing.

      I wanted to comment on your previous attempts, but I didn't feel qualified because I really don't know. I mean personally I workout and all, but I didn't connect with the music or appreciate how your music is preferable.

      That last statement is an opinion. Not a slight against you or your music.

      I just don't know who you're targeting. Why your offer is amazing. What the benefits are over other options. ETC. ETC. ETC.

      Again, this isn't a critique. I'm not ripping your piece to shreds. This is ONLY an opinion.

      I don't know. But my guess, looking at your page, is you don't know either. But if you could fill in the missing points, connect the dots, give us the logic, that would be great for others who want to help you.

      - Rick Duris

      PS: In my copywriting work, I study the market. It's an obsession. I wrote a blog post about this subject this week that may help you:

      How I Dominate Markets | CopyRanger.com
      Thanks for getting back to me Rick. Yes, I've done the research, This is what I've found. And before I even go any farther, yes, part of this is a guess and I'll explain why as I detail what my research revealed.

      The idea of selling dance tracks to exercise to given very specific beats per minute was suggested to me by someone at this forum who is actually looking for such a product. But before I went ahead and dove into this based on one person's wishes, I did keyword research and looked at the top sites that came up for the keywords I'm targeting.

      About the list first.

      It's not a big list, This is a long tail market. We're not talking hundreds of thousands of visitors monthly. But we're also talking very little competition at least as far as I have uncovered from my research.

      The top sites that come up for these keywords are basically main fitness sites like fitness magazine, shape, sparkpeople and muscle and fitness that dedicate a page to these keywords. The page, for the most part, doesn't really try to sell anything. It'll list some suggestions for downloads with a short little blurb and that's it.

      This lead me to believe, based on the fact that I have found keywords indicating that people are looking for music downloads (for whatever reason) and nobody really going after that market (unless you can show me sites that do specifically with top sales pages) that I might have a way to get in under the radar, even if we're not talking a crap ton of money. Right now I'm not making anything. So even a sale a day is a grand a month. To me that would be gold.

      Also, the sites these keywords lead me to don't indicate that these people are looking to lose weight, gain muscle or anything more than just have dance music to exercise to. I can only assume that they want to work out to music because they feel it's preferable to working out to no music. Otherwise why lookup keywords like exercise dance music or just plain exercise music?

      Again, am I taking a bit of a calculated risk because I'm not 100% sure what these people want? Of course I am. I can only go by the keywords they're looking up and the sites those keywords are pointing to, which offer nothing more than lists that these people will then have to manually download one at a time in order to exercise to,

      What my product gives them is 150 tracks featuring BPMs covered from 90 to 200 that they can download instantly at a fraction of the cost of downloading tracks individually and at a fraction of the time involved.

      That is what my product offers. Now if the product itself is not attractive enough then I'm sure I'll eventually figure that out and no sales page no matter how good it is, is going to fix that problem...no demand.

      But I've got over 5,000 monthly searches that have almost no competition. Most of these keywords don't even have an Adwords cost, but some do...as high as $1 a pop. So there is obviously some demand.

      So since I am making a calculated guess here based on the limited info I was able to obtain (because this isn't a mega niche) I have decided to go with the slant and selling points that you see on the sales page. If those selling points are wrong, that's one thing. But I at least want to put the copy forth in words the best way possible given those selling points.

      And they're simple.

      1) Low cost per track downloaded

      2) Less time spent getting tracks

      3) Ability to customize workout routine

      4) Wide range of beats per minute to choose from

      That's it. Now, having said that, have I put forward those points as well as I could? If not, how can I make them better?
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        One other thing. I looked at The Rock's playlist. There is no indication of how many BPMs each track is.

        My product is aimed at people who are looking for specific BPMs to construct a routine. There is actually one site that somebody listed in another thread (I don't remember which one) that does this but their songs have to be downloaded one at a time and the cost is greater than my product.

        That is another advantage of my product over this other site's.
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      Steven,

      A few specific problems...

      There's no support in the main text for the claim in the headline, that workout music can make someone fat. As is, it's just a ridiculous headline.

      More importantly, you concentrate on beats per minute without relating that to the benefits that the user really cares about.

      Does anyone other than an aerobics instructor relate to beats per minute per se? I doubt it.

      You need to sit down and rethink what your target buyer truly cares about and then use that as your starting point.

      If you truly don't know what the target buyer truly cares about, then no copywriter is going to be able to help you sell this product.

      But if you do, then you should be able to write a decent first draft.

      Marcia Yudkin
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      Check out Marcia Yudkin's No-Hype Marketing Academy for courses on copywriting, publicity, infomarketing, marketing plans, naming, and branding - not to mention the popular "Marketing for Introverts" course.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        Steven,

        A few specific problems...

        There's no support in the main text for the claim in the headline, that workout music can make someone fat. As is, it's just a ridiculous headline.

        More importantly, you concentrate on beats per minute without relating that to the benefits that the user really cares about.

        Does anyone other than an aerobics instructor relate to beats per minute per se? I doubt it.

        You need to sit down and rethink what your target buyer truly cares about and then use that as your starting point.

        If you truly don't know what the target buyer truly cares about, then no copywriter is going to be able to help you sell this product.

        But if you do, then you should be able to write a decent first draft.

        Marcia Yudkin
        Again, based on my keyword research, I can only guess. As I said, this isn't a mega niche. It appears to be a slightly untapped long tail niche.

        If I had to guess, because that's all I can do based on the limited info out there, this is what I would say is going through my target market's mind.

        "I need to work out because I'm out of shape. But working out is so boring. If I had music to workout to that would help. But I don't want just any music. I want music that's at a certain tempo so I can do a steady workout. I'd like different tempos so that I can speed up or slow down my workout. I want to be able to construct long workouts or short workouts. I don't want to have to comb all over the Internet for this music downloading each track one at a time. I want to be able to download a lot of tracks all at once with each one clearly showing how many beats per minute it is so I don't have to guess or use some beat detection program to figure it out. And I want all this at a great price."

        That's what's going through the mind of my target market.

        Now can you help me?

        PS - That headline was suggested by the first poster here. I assumed they were a copywriter. My bad. I'll change it to something that relates to what I described above and we can take it from there.

        PPS - I changed the headline to something that fits my description above
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    I Googled...

    150 bpm workout music

    I got this...

    https://www.google.com/search?num=20....0.YvJu8EFJ7XQ

    What makes your music better than this?

    Cardio Workout Playlist: Best Running Songs Above 150 BPM - Shape Magazine

    And again, WHO is your market? And what do they want?

    I doubt a person looking to construct a workout routine based upon BPM is thinking...

    "Working out is a drag. I hate it…you hate it. The alternative sucks. Sitting around popping Ritz crackers while watching the boob tube does nothing but put on some very ugly pounds. But I don’t have to tell you that…right?"

    Yet, that's what you lead with?

    I think your market obsessed with working out. But again, I haven't done the research.

    - Rick Duris
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

      I Googled...

      150 bpm workout music

      I got this...

      https://www.google.com/search?num=20....0.YvJu8EFJ7XQ

      What makes your music better than this?

      Cardio Workout Playlist: Best Running Songs Above 150 BPM - Shape Magazine

      And again, WHO is your market? And what do they want?

      I doubt a person looking to construct a routine based upon BPM is thinking...

      "Working out is a drag. I hate it...you hate it. The alternative sucks. Sitting around popping Ritz crackers while watching the boob tube does nothing but put on some very ugly pounds. But I don't have to tell you that...right?"

      Yet, that's what you lead with?

      I think your market obsessed with working out. But again, I haven't done the research.

      - Rick Duris
      Rick, you may very well be right. That may not be what they're thinking. It could be something no more complicated than what I described to Marcia's post above.

      I'll repost what's going through my ideal prospect's mind here.

      "I need to work out because I'm out of shape. But working out is so boring. If I had music to workout to that would help. But I don't want just any music. I want music that's at a certain tempo so I can do a steady workout. I'd like different tempos so that I can speed up or slow down my workout. I want to be able to construct long workouts or short workouts. I don't want to have to comb all over the Internet for this music downloading each track one at a time. I want to be able to download a lot of tracks all at once with each one clearly showing how many beats per minute it is so I don't have to guess or use some beat detection program to figure it out. And I want all this at a great price."

      Again, this is my guess based on my keyword research. There really isn't a lot of info about this niche out there. But people are spending up to a dollar per click for some of these keywords. So there has to be something there unless it's just to get them to the page to pitch them a complete workout routine. That is always possible.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        The first line of text on a sales page is prime real estate...the first four lines on that pae are throwaways in my opinion.

        Do you exercise? Do you exercise to music? Have you put your own music into segments and exercised to them to see how they affect you?

        For the average couch potato, "Maniac" is good dance music. It takes someone dedicated to exercise to understand how BPM in music works to maintain the heart rate desirable for the exercise.

        I think your target market will require a more serious and informed approach than than you are applying. If there are studies and science to back up the use of BPM music to enhance exercise...you need to find those studies and pull some facts.

        Which BPM applies to what particular exercise or customer? If they mix and match - how do they know how to put transitions together for maximum exercise benefits?

        This is not, in my opinion, a product you can simply announce as "here I am and here it is" - you have to explain it, justify it and sell it to the right market segment. There may well be a market there but it's not a large market so your approach must be laser targeted.

        The page comes across as "nervous" and I understand how that can happen. I'd start with an outline and then get my facts in order and start writing from there.
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          The first line of text on a sales page is prime real estate...the first four lines on that pae are throwaways in my opinion.

          Do you exercise? Do you exercise to music? Have you put your own music into segments and exercised to them to see how they affect you?

          For the average couch potato, "Maniac" is good dance music. It takes someone dedicated to exercise to understand how BPM in music works to maintain the heart rate desirable for the exercise.

          I think your target market will require a more serious and informed approach than than you are applying. If there are studies and science to back up the use of BPM music to enhance exercise...you need to find those studies and pull some facts.

          Which BPM applies to what particular exercise or customer? If they mix and match - how do they know how to put transitions together for maximum exercise benefits?

          This is not, in my opinion, a product you can simply announce as "here I am and here it is" - you have to explain it, justify it and sell it to the right market segment. There may well be a market there but it's not a large market so your approach must be laser targeted.

          The page comes across as "nervous" and I understand how that can happen. I'd start with an outline and then get my facts in order and start writing from there.
          Kay, that was actually all done with the original sales letter that I was told by this forum was horrible. I was told the science was nonsense, nobody cares, a knowledgeable work out fanatic will say BS and so on. I'm sure you recall the thread where I specifically told you that entire sales letter was my copywriter's work and you didn't believe me.

          I still have it backed up if you want to read it again.

          So I have to ask. If that sales letter was bad then (with all the science) what would make it good now?
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Here is the original sales letter that was torn to shreds as being HORRIBLE.

            (dup) Exercise Dance Beats — Exercise Dance Beats
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Kay, that was actually all done with the original sales letter that I was told by this forum was horrible. I was told the science was nonsense, nobody cares, a knowledgeable work out fanatic will say BS and so on. I'm sure you recall the thread where I specifically told you that entire sales letter was my copywriter's work and you didn't believe me.
              No - that isn't how it went. The word "science" was mentioned - with no supporting facts or studies or information. I suggested you add more detail and real info.

              Yes, you specifically blamed the copywriter for everything - and I expect that's what got the thread deleted.

              You got your money back - and you are still complaining about the copywriter and the original letter? So be it - do what you want.
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              • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                No - that isn't how it went. The word "science" was mentioned - with no supporting facts or studies or information. I suggested you add more detail and real info.

                Yes, you specifically blamed the copywriter for everything - and I expect that's what got the thread deleted.

                You got your money back - and you are still complaining about the copywriter and the original letter? So be it - do what you want.
                Oh for the love of God, why do you always do this to me, I was told the original sales letter was horrible, That was the exact word used. HORRIBLE. So I got my money back and did he sales letter myself. Now I am coming here asking for help to fix the sales letter I am doing. I don't care about the original letter anymore. I was just showing you what I was told was HORRIBLE. Don't tell me that's not what was said because I remember that word printed in all caps like it was a knife through my gut. I felt like I spent my money for nothing. Now if you want to tell me that I shouldn't have listened to those people and trusted my gut (I didn't think the letter was so bad until I was told it was bad) fine. But what's done is done. I am now on my own and need help fixing THIS letter.

                Are you saying the first letter was better? Is it still missing something? If so, what?

                What do I have to do to make it better?

                If you don't want to help me, don't. Let the copywriters at this forum help me if they want to. If they don't want to, then they can tell me to take my problems elsewhere and I will.

                I just want to fix this sales letter that I currently have up there. That's all.

                Can we PLEASE do that?
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                • Profile picture of the author splitTest
                  Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

                  Oh for the love of God, why do you always do this to me, I was told the original sales letter was horrible, That was the exact word used. HORRIBLE. So I got my money back and did he sales letter myself. Now I am coming here asking for help to fix the sales letter I am doing. I don't care about the original letter anymore. I was just showing you what I was told was HORRIBLE. Don't tell me that's not what was said because I remember that word printed in all caps like it was a knife through my gut. I felt like I spent my money for nothing. Now if you want to tell me that I shouldn't have listened to those people and trusted my gut (I didn't think the letter was so bad until I was told it was bad) fine. But what's done is done. I am now on my own and need help fixing THIS letter.

                  Are you saying the first letter was better? Is it still missing something? If so, what?

                  What do I have to do to make it better?

                  If you don't want to help me, don't. Let the copywriters at this forum help me if they want to. If they don't want to, then they can tell me to take my problems elsewhere and I will.

                  I just want to fix this sales letter that I currently have up there. That's all.

                  Can we PLEASE do that?
                  The original copy is far better. Your problem is a horrible product. The $97 copywriter did a pretty good job, considering the product!
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          • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
            There is no science whatsoever in the original sales letter. Science = research studies by legitimate professionals with statistics, etc. Where is the scientific proof of your headline claims?

            According to this your target market can't include people your own age because you don't have beats to match a 45+ year old that is just starting out. So that may help a little in limiting your market - it's not for beginners or older folks.

            At 85% exercise rate, a 50 year old can only use your first 2 packages so the value goes down and others are cheaper as I pointed out in the other thread at this point when you don't count all 5 packages.

            Mark
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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

              There is no science whatsoever in the original sales letter. Science = research studies by legitimate professionals with statistics, etc. Where is the scientific proof of your headline claims?

              According to this your target market can't include people your own age because you don't have beats to match a 45+ year old that is just starting out. So that may help a little in limiting your market - it's not for beginners or older folks.

              At 85% exercise rate, a 50 year old can only use your first 2 packages so the value goes down and others are cheaper as I pointed out in the other thread at this point when you don't count all 5 packages.

              Mark
              Okay, this helps narrow it down a little. So if it's not for beginners or older folks, are we looking at maybe moms in their mid 30s?

              I was actually suggested this market by somebody else.

              What do you think? Moms that just want to kill some time on the treadmill listening to some beats.
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        • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          The first line of text on a sales page is prime real estate...the first four lines on that pae are throwaways in my opinion.
          You couldn't be more mistaken.

          Alex
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            "in my opinion"....is never wrong
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          • Profile picture of the author max5ty
            Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

            You couldn't be more mistaken.

            Alex
            I'm wondering what you find so great about the first 4 lines.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
              Originally Posted by max5ty View Post

              I'm wondering what you find so great about the first 4 lines.
              She said "on a sales page"... leading me to believe her comments were about sales pages in general.

              Alex
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              • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
                Originally Posted by Alex Cohen View Post

                She said "on a sales page"... leading me to believe her comments were about sales pages in general.

                Alex
                No, Alex.

                She said "The first line of text on a sales page is prime real estate" followed by "the first four lines on that page are throwaways in my opinion.".

                Might want to re-read what you quoted.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alex Cohen
                  Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke View Post

                  No, Alex.

                  She said "The first line of text on a sales page is prime real estate" followed by "the first four lines on that page are throwaways in my opinion.".

                  Might want to re-read what you quoted.
                  You're right Cool. My apologies Kay.

                  Alex
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                  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
                    Tell me exactly how you would improve my spatula arm.
                    Culinary school?
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Singletary
    I've had a on and off love affair with working out since I was a kid - yes it needs to be more on than off but moving on. Part of that has been extensive study (scientific type as well as magazine type). At one point I thought I wanted to be an Exercise Physiologist type when I grew up.

    But never, not once, has BPM music come into my mind. I don't know anyone that does work out, has worked out, or is thinking about working out that would even begin to think those thoughts you mentioned.

    Most of the people I know are looking for a program be it in text format or video or whatever. They go buy Richard Simmon's Dancing to the Oldies or whatever and I bet BPM never crosses their mind.

    5000 searches a month = maybe 500 visitors = maybe 50 signups to your newsletter = 5 sales a month?

    The one I mentioned the other day is laid out in a way I think this market (exercise not BPM) are looking for. I don't think people are looking for a long form sales letter but are looking for pictures of cute girls and buff guys (that supposedly got that way from buying the stuff on the page). I know that is sacrilege in the copywriting forum but one of the things is you have to look at your competition as well as what works - not just blindly do a long sales letter because that's what works elsewhere. Not dissing long sales letters - I think they have their place.

    Mark
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by Mark Singletary View Post

      I've had a on and off love affair with working out since I was a kid - yes it needs to be more on than off but moving on. Part of that has been extensive study (scientific type as well as magazine type). At one point I thought I wanted to be an Exercise Physiologist type when I grew up.

      But never, not once, has BPM music come into my mind. I don't know anyone that does work out, has worked out, or is thinking about working out that would even begin to think those thoughts you mentioned.

      Most of the people I know are looking for a program be it in text format or video or whatever. They go buy Richard Simmon's Dancing to the Oldies or whatever and I bet BPM never crosses their mind.

      5000 searches a month = maybe 500 visitors = maybe 50 signups to your newsletter = 5 sales a month?

      The one I mentioned the other day is laid out in a way I think this market (exercise not BPM) are looking for. I don't think people are looking for a long form sales letter but are looking for pictures of cute girls and buff guys (that supposedly got that way from buying the stuff on the page). I know that is sacrilege in the copywriting forum but one of the things is you have to look at your competition as well as what works - not just blindly do a long sales letter because that's what works elsewhere. Not dissing long sales letters - I think they have their place.

      Mark
      So what do you suggest I do Mark?
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Steve, Here's a push in the right direction:

    https://www.google.com/search?num=20....0.SXpWqJR7CQI

    As you'll discover, your letter does not resonate with this market.

    - Rick Duris
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      I just found this article. Is this the kind of research you're talking about?

      http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/he...anted=all&_r=0
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

      Steve, Here's a push in the right direction:

      https://www.google.com/search?num=20....0.SXpWqJR7CQI

      As you'll discover, your letter does not resonate with this market.

      - Rick Duris
      Okay, question. How much of all this data do I include in the sales letter? How much space do I dedicate to it?

      A paragraph, two paragraphs?

      I don't want to bore people to death with statistics. I need to strike a balance.
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      • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Okay, question. How much of all this data do I include in the sales letter? How much space do I dedicate to it?

        A paragraph, two paragraphs?

        I don't want to bore people to death with statistics. I need to strike a balance.
        Are you kidding me? You spend 5 minutes looking at a few pages and think you understand the market? There's 11,000+ pages on that site alone. Ultra-targeted content to your market and keywords.

        Sheesh. I give up. Have fun.


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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

          Are you kidding me? You spend 5 minutes looking at a few pages and think you understand the market?

          Sheesh. I give up. Have fun.

          That's not what I said. I don't understand the market. I just asked a question. How much space on the sales page do I devote to data? That's all I asked.
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            Look, I've come here for help and haven't argued with anything you've said. If you want to bail on me fine. But don't put this on me. I am trying very hard to do exactly what you tell me to do. But I need to ask questions.

            I am broke and need this to work.

            Okay, I can take it from here. I need to thoroughly research BPM to exercise and then redo the letter.

            After I've redone the letter I'll come back and then you can tell me (only if you want to) if I've put in too much data, not enough, or whatever. But you've given me something to work with and for that I am thankful.

            Please don't give up on me.
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            • Profile picture of the author Kay King
              Let the copywriters at this forum help me if they want to. If they don't want to, then they can tell me to take my problems elsewhere and I will.
              Copywriting isn't my favorite thing to do but I've been paid quite well for it at times. I've written sales copy for several manufacturer's, and for specific physical products in several fields. I don't do MMO or "IM products niche" so I don't talk copy here much.

              By all means - you deserve help only from top experts. I'll go away now - promise.
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              • Profile picture of the author max5ty
                Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

                Copywriting isn't my favorite thing to do but I've been paid quite well for it at times. I've written sales copy for several manufacturer's, and for specific physical products in several fields. I don't do MMO or "IM products niche" so I don't talk copy here much.

                By all means - you deserve help only from top experts. I'll go away now - promise.
                I read your post, and others you've done.

                Don't think anyone can get much more expert than you.

                You definitely know a lot about copywriting, and you've got an enormous wealth of experience in real world marketing.

                I appreciate you taking the time to post in this forum anytime you do.
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        • Profile picture of the author satrap
          Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

          Are you kidding me? You spend 5 minutes looking at a few pages and think you understand the market? There's 11,000+ pages on that site alone. Ultra-targeted content to your market and keywords.

          Sheesh. I give up. Have fun.

          Until this, I was thinking you, Rick, were the only one who was actually helping him, but all of a sudden this...

          I don't get why you guys are putting words in his mouth. He didn't even use the term "I understand the market" in the post which you replied to above.

          He was just asking how much of the information he finds on that page he needs to include in his copy.

          I know nothing about copy writing, so I can't help on that front, but it seems like some of you guys are just looking to get thanks from others by bashing people left and right.
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          • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
            Originally Posted by satrap View Post

            Until this, I was thinking you, Rick, were the only one who was actually helping him, but all of a sudden this...

            I don't get why you guys are putting words in his mouth. He didn't even use the term "I understand the market" in the post which you replied to above.

            He was just asking how much of the information he finds on that page he needs to include in his copy.

            I know nothing about copy writing, so I can't help on that front, but it seems like some of you guys are just looking to get thanks from others by bashing people left and right.
            Satrap,

            It may appear that way, but you're probably missing the context. Unless you understand the history that the OP has had with this membership in this subforum and in the Main Discussion Forum, it may appear that some people were bashing Steven, when, in fact, many of them were actually trying to be helpful.

            There's a lot of history here (going back years) whereby in the past many members have tried to help Steven by giving him advice and he would either abruptly fight it or turn it down.

            To be frank, he is not an easy person to give feedback to because of his tendency to find reasons on why something won't work. He also has had a tendency to over react to constructive criticisim which put off some people and also made others to stop giving him advice.

            Though he has changed some in that regard and I don't know if that's because he's grown a little wiser or because his current circumstances have forced him to be that way or both.

            In any case, things here are not always what they appear to be.

            RoD
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          • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
            Originally Posted by satrap View Post

            Until this, I was thinking you, Rick, were the only one who was actually helping him, but all of a sudden this...

            I don't get why you guys are putting words in his mouth. He didn't even use the term "I understand the market" in the post which you replied to above.

            He was just asking how much of the information he finds on that page he needs to include in his copy.

            I know nothing about copy writing, so I can't help on that front, but it seems like some of you guys are just looking to get thanks from others by bashing people left and right.
            Your last sentence (at least the first part) says it all.

            Copywriting is about appealing to a target market.

            Appealing to a target market involves starting off with a product they actually want to buy.

            The few people out there who created a product before knowing the market and were successful were lucky. Every other successful business person knows who they're selling to and what they want.

            Long tail keyword research IS NOT MARKET RESEARCH.

            If you've done only cursory research and decided to hang your hat on an iffy proposition that simply MUST work, you've only got yourself to blame.

            To echo what Rod said, this guy has a history of asking for help. Then when he gets great advice like what Rick's provided, he gives us all the reasons the advice is wrong or won't work.

            You don't come ask professionals for help, refuse the help, wonder why you're failing, and get to still sit on your high horse.

            EDITED TO ADD: This is a great example of Cialdini's principles (or was it Carnegie? They're all running together now). Someone has invested a lot of effort into an idea that very likely won't fly. When criticized, they dig in their heels and stay the course even if it costs them a great deal.

            Good thing to study, newbs.
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            • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
              Long tail keyword research IS NOT MARKET RESEARCH.
              Thanks for making this point. It's something we can all learn from.

              Marcia Yudkin
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          • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
            Originally Posted by satrap View Post

            Until this, I was thinking you, Rick, were the only one who was actually helping him, but all of a sudden this...

            I don't get why you guys are putting words in his mouth. He didn't even use the term "I understand the market" in the post which you replied to above.

            He was just asking how much of the information he finds on that page he needs to include in his copy.

            I know nothing about copy writing, so I can't help on that front, but it seems like some of you guys are just looking to get thanks from others by bashing people left and right.
            Wow, that's an interesting take away. You should spend more time around here.

            But you know what? Maybe a little explaining is in order. At least from my perceptive.

            Here's what you saw, satrap.

            Steve was getting TRULY HELPFUL comments from everyone all along. But to Steve? They weren't relevant. They were comments he didn't want to hear.

            Steve just wanted pretty words that would help sell his BPM music tracks. That's all he came here for. He didn't post to have his idea critiqued. In his mind, that matter was settled. His offer was going to be a success. He HAD to make it work. He was desperate to make it work.

            I bought into his cry for help.

            Then I, as well as others, started to see the situation for what it was: A guy who thought he had a good idea, a handful of targeted, low competition keywords, but hadn't researched his market at all.

            The guy didn't even know what types of people would benefit from his music. In his imagination, fat moms were sitting on their couch, munching on crackers, watching The Biggest Loser. They would get a wild hair idea and all of a sudden want high intensity 160+ BPM music to dance to. Then they would enter those keywords into Google and BUY.

            But only if Steve's words were pretty enough. He had to have pretty words. Pretty words that sell.

            ----

            But think about this: Imagine if you did the work and discovered while researching, marathon runners had a near rabid addiction to keeping their heart rate in a narrowly defined target zone. And they thought motivating 160 BPM music was the key to them breaking their best time or them winning their next marathon.

            Think you could write a newsy-looking sales letter that romanced his music tracks to THOSE runners who entered those keywords? Even though his music clearly wasn't a top 10 hit on Billboard or Variety or Rolling Stone?

            Absolutely!

            Then, what if we renamed his music tracks and playlists "Open Road", "Winner Takes all", "Full Throttle", etc.?

            But it gets better.

            We all know in terms of popularity and compared to top ten music Steve couldn't compete. BUT what about as a bonus to his music where he also offered a free report? "The Complete List of 200 Hit Songs in 160 to 180 BPM range". Indexed by BPM, artist and category: Pop, Rock, Hip Hop, Dance, Hardcore, etc.

            Then as a second bonus: Spotify or iTunes ready-to-download, high BPM music playlists. Categorized by type of music. Just download, and head out for a quick run!

            And then we do a little more research and we find what specific music tracks the top 20 winning marathoners listen to, document it and now we've we add a third ultra-valuable bonus runners would drool over. And we create a playlist for that!

            They'd probably buy Steve's product just for the bonuses.

            As you can see, I had a ton of ideas just waiting in the wings. It all depended upon what the market research yielded.

            ----

            But Steve didn't understand how market research was relevant to his situation. Why? Because he had a handful of keywords in his pocket and he thought his generic music was good enough to bring in money.

            He's wrong.

            We all knew it. We all saw it. But he either couldn't see it or didn't want to see it. Until he was bludgeoned over the head with his shortsightedness.

            Then he abandoned.

            But initially, I was willing to guide him as you saw. To help him clarify his findings, give him ideas, once he did the work. That is, until he asked an idiotic question without spending even 5 minutes looking at what I gave him.

            That's when I knew. By asking the question the way he did, by seeing he hadn't even looked at what I gave him, I knew all he wanted was pretty words.

            And I got frustrated because I couldn't tell him what those words were, because I don't know the market, because I hadn't done the research and because I couldn't do it for him.

            I just don't have that kind of time.

            No one could give him the words. No one had done the market research. And Steve in his rush, just wanted everyone to play a game of "pin the tail on the donkey". So he could pick and choose which words he wanted to include.

            FT

            To him, it was a guessing game of which words sounded best. You may not realize it satrap, but that's not what copywriting is.

            ----

            So now what does Steve want us to do? Send him positive thoughts, prayers, blessings.

            Sure, I can do that. And I have. I mean it. Prayers have bailed me out a lot.

            But Steve's definitely going to need them. Here's how illogical his thinking is right now:

            He's giving up control. Working on speculation. Having to kiss a potential partner's ass that he doesn't know. Going to have to wait for his cut from someone he doesn't trust yet.

            Basically what Steve's got now is a job. Working for free. Working his guts out on a promise of future riches he has no control over. All the while, he's desperate.

            All because someone waved a little money in front of him.

            Can you see the writing on the wall? I can.

            Just wait until first time Steve, after/during his launch, desperate for money, starts begging, demanding and pleading. Generally getting on his partner's nerves because he's impatient.

            I'd love to see that email conversation.

            -----

            Good luck, Steve. I'll pray for you. But if I were you, the moment you get the urge to open your mouth, I'd bite my tongue. HARD.

            ----

            In short satrap, I saw Steve as a chronic self-saboteur early on in this thread. Me enabling him wasn't helping, so I bailed. It would have been easier, cheaper and quicker if we just passed a PayPal collection plate, but we all know how that story ends.

            - Rick Duris


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            • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
              Originally Posted by RickDuris View Post

              Wow, that's an interesting take away. You should spend more time around here.

              But you know what? Maybe a little explaining is in order. At least from my perceptive.

              Here's what you saw, satrap.

              Steve was getting TRULY HELPFUL comments from everyone all along. But to Steve? They weren't relevant. They were comments he didn't want to hear.

              Steve just wanted pretty words that would help sell his BPM music tracks. That's all he came here for. He didn't post to have his idea critiqued. In his mind, that matter was settled. His offer was going to be a success. He HAD to make it work. He was desperate to make it work.

              I bought into his cry for help.

              Then I, as well as others, started to see the situation for what it was: A guy who thought he had a good idea, a handful of targeted, low competition keywords, but hadn't researched his market at all.

              The guy didn't even know what types of people would benefit from his music. In his imagination, fat moms were sitting on their couch, munching on crackers, watching The Biggest Loser. They would get a wild hair idea and all of a sudden want high intensity 160+ BPM music to dance to. Then they would enter those keywords into Google and BUY.

              But only if Steve's words were pretty enough. He had to have pretty words. Pretty words that sell.

              ----

              But think about this: Imagine if you did the work and discovered while researching, marathon runners had a near rabid addiction to keeping their heart rate in a narrowly defined target zone. And they thought motivating 160 BPM music was the key to them breaking their best time or them winning their next marathon.

              Think you could write a newsy-looking sales letter that romanced his music tracks to THOSE runners who entered those keywords? Even though his music clearly wasn't a top 10 hit on Billboard or Variety or Rolling Stone?

              Absolutely!

              Then, what if we renamed his music tracks and playlists "Open Road", "Winner Takes all", "Full Throttle", etc.?

              But it gets better.

              We all know in terms of popularity and compared to top ten music Steve couldn't compete. BUT what about as a bonus to his music where he also offered a free report? "The Complete List of 200 Hit Songs in 160 to 180 BPM range". Indexed by BPM, artist and category: Pop, Rock, Hip Hop, Dance, Hardcore, etc.

              Then as a second bonus: Spotify or iTunes ready-to-download, high BPM music playlists. Categorized by type of music. Just download, and head out for a quick run!

              And then we do a little more research and we find what specific music tracks the top 20 winning marathoners listen to, document it and now we've we add a third ultra-valuable bonus runners would drool over. And we create a playlist for that!

              They'd probably buy Steve's product just for the bonuses.

              As you can see, I had a ton of ideas just waiting in the wings. It all depended upon what the market research yielded.

              ----

              But Steve didn't understand how market research was relevant to his situation. Why? Because he had a handful of keywords in his pocket and he thought his generic music was good enough to bring in money.

              He's wrong.

              We all knew it. We all saw it. But he either couldn't see it or didn't want to see it. Until he was bludgeoned over the head with his shortsightedness.

              Then he abandoned.

              But initially, I was willing to guide him as you saw. To help him clarify his findings, give him ideas, once he did the work. That is, until he asked an idiotic question without spending even 5 minutes looking at what I gave him.

              That's when I knew. By asking the question the way he did, by seeing he hadn't even looked at what I gave him, I knew all he wanted was pretty words.

              And I got frustrated because I couldn't tell him what those words were, because I don't know the market, because I hadn't done the research and because I couldn't do it for him.

              I just don't have that kind of time.

              No one could give him the words. No one had done the market research. And Steve in his rush, just wanted everyone to play a game of "pin the tail on the donkey". So he could pick and choose which words he wanted to include.

              FT

              To him, it was a guessing game of which words sounded best. You may not realize it satrap, but that's not what copywriting is.

              ----

              So now what does Steve want us to do? Send him positive thoughts, prayers, blessings.

              Sure, I can do that. And I have. I mean it. Prayers have bailed me out a lot.

              But Steve's definitely going to need them. Here's how illogical his thinking is right now:

              He's giving up control. Working on speculation. Having to kiss a potential partner's ass that he doesn't know. Going to have to wait for his cut from someone he doesn't trust yet.

              Basically what Steve's got now is a job. Working for free. Working his guts out on a promise of future riches he has no control over. All the while, he's desperate.

              All because someone waved a little money in front of him.

              Can you see the writing on the wall? I can.

              Just wait until first time Steve, after/during his launch, desperate for money, starts begging, demanding and pleading. Generally getting on his partner's nerves because he's impatient.

              I'd love to see that email conversation.

              -----

              Good luck, Steve. I'll pray for you. But if I were you, the moment you get the urge to open your mouth, I'd bite my tongue. HARD.

              ----

              In short satrap, I saw Steve as a chronic self-saboteur early on in this thread. Me enabling him wasn't helping, so I bailed. It would have been easier, cheaper and quicker if we just passed a PayPal collection plate, but we all know how that story ends.

              - Rick Duris

              Rick, what an amazing post. And what great ideas. I wasn't going to come back but I had to reply to this. Everything you just outlined above is exactly what I should have done from the onset, but I was desperate just to make something, anything, as quickly as possible.

              In short, as you said, my initial idea has no chance at all and I should have realized that. But desperation and being at the end of your rope will make you do stupid things. I may have always been a pain in the ass, but I was never this stupid. I didn't have a successful business by luck. I researched what people wanted (the RIGHT way) and I gave it to them. Had my traffic generation methods not gone out the window, I still would have been doing that.

              But there's no point crying over spilled milk.

              I'm going to copy and paste your post into a Word Doc for future reference. If this deal with this person falls through (I sent him my samples and am waiting to hear if they're good enough) then what I'm going to do is restart this whole project from scratch. I'm going to do the research the RIGHT way. I know it's going to take a long time. Maybe months or even a year or more. I don't know. I have no doubt there is a lot I have to cover and at the end of it, I may find there is no market period. But at this point, I have nothing to lose by doing this the RIGHT way.

              I truly am sorry for behaving like such a jackass. My defense is the state that my mind is in. It's not a pretty place. I don't wish this on anyone, not even my worst enemy. I've made less money this year than my very first year marketing online when I had just a little more than a clue. I'm smarter than this and I should be better than this. But my head is in such a bad place right now that I can't think straight. The simplest tasks take all my brain power. That's why the sales letter I wrote was so God damned awful,

              Anyway, you've given me a lot of great resources to look at and some incredible ideas. If this last ditch effort falls through, and no doubt it probably will, I'm going to use those ideas. It may lead to a dead end anyway, but at least I've known that I went about this the RIGHT way.

              Thank you. I mean that truly. And again, I'm sorry for being so stupid. There is no better word for it because that's what I am right now. Stupid, stubborn and schizoid. I should start a support group called "The Three S's"

              I'm sure there are plenty of available candidates..
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
    Steven, you don't know me. I have been debating whether or not to weigh in for the last couple of hours. I am not a professional copywriter, but I have some experience and some credentials. And I have written successful copy for my own businesses over the years.

    But what I really am is an entrepreneur. I love to build businesses. I have had a few really good successes, as well as more than my fair share of failures.

    My strong gut feeling is that you do not have a copywriting problem.

    I don't want to seem like I am piling on, but I have to say that I feel like you have completely misread the market here. Your problem is that you are trying to sell a product nobody is looking for.

    There are two categories of this problem:
    1) Nobody is looking for it because nobody needs or wants it (New Coke)
    2) Nobody is looking for it because nobody knows they need it... yet (iPhone)

    Your problem is going to be #1.

    Here is why: none of your prospects (I believe) are looking for a new kind of music for their workouts. They already have music they love. They just need help to know which music in their collection is going to fit into their workout best. Or, if they don't already have it, they are looking for music that they already know they like, to top off their music collection with.

    I seriously doubt anybody at this moment is looking for an entirely new kind of music to work out to. What you are composing has not had any opportunity to make an emotional connection with them yet. It might as well be elevator music.

    Essentially, you are setting yourself up to compete with your prospect's favorite artists, like (from the NYT article) the Black Eyed Peas, the Go-Gos, Rihanna, Glenn Frey, Green Day, ABBA, Metallica, LL Cool J, etc.

    I don't care how good your techno beats are, I guarantee you that you can't compete with that. Especially at the prices you are looking to charge.

    If there is a product here, it is probably the playlists themselves (along with an affiliate account to itunes, amazon, play store, etc.) Do the research and set up premium playlists in every musical genre that will inspire people, then sell that as your product, maybe with some custom techno as a bonus item.

    I'm not sure how many of those you can sell either, but at a lower price point I'd give something like that a much better chance than what you are trying to do here.

    Back to the letter, I think it will become much easier to write when you are trying to solve one problem instead of two. Teach people the science, relate it to the music they already know and love, and then sell them playlists that will keep them going for hours.

    Remove the burden of the introduction of your music and trying to persuade them why it is better for them than their favorite artists, and you may have something to work with here. Like I said earlier, adding it back in as a bonus is going to be a much better approach.

    I know this is not what you want to hear now, and I can appreciate that. I have been in your shoes many times (technically speaking, it is pretty synonymous with the times I have failed). But anyone telling you that you have something going on here is not doing you any favors.

    I would take a few days off, clear your head, then take a long hard look at what you've got to work with.

    I wish you the best of luck.
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  • Profile picture of the author max5ty
    You say you're broke...so you come up with a product a couple people in the whole world might want.

    You'll never ever make a fortune, or even enough to live on off this product.

    The only possible way you could ever turn a dime on this idea is if you already had a successful product that was related to fitness. Then, and only then, you MIGHT be able to piggy back it off your list of buyers. You don't have enough name recognition or product recognition right now to pull this off.

    It's useless to tear your copy apart. It would be an exercise in futility. You don't have a large enough possible customer base to give a crap.
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  • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
    Steve, I didn't read through all the posts here, but I'll say that getting your money back on a $97 salesletter is really screwing that Copywriter over.... OF COURSE a decent Copywriter's going to say that it sucks, because quite frankly, it should. If you're only willing to pay $97 for a salesletter, then guess what? You deserve a salesletter which SUCKS.

    To ask for your money back after they put their work into it is pretty bogus. Why don't you post the original, and we'll tell you if it's worth your $97 and/or if it's better than what you have there (which it probably is, because yours is a joke).

    Edit: Sorry, you did post the original, and yes, it's definitely worth $97... it's not great, but it's certainly worth a measely $97, and it's sure as hell a lot better than what you put there. I'd give that Copywriter you screwed over their money back... don't just demand a refund because some random ******* said it was "HORRIBLE" even if it was all in caps.
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    • Profile picture of the author marciayudkin
      I think this thread illustrates the foolishness of creating a product without having an inkling who the potential customers are or why they would want it.

      It also shows the foolishness of picking some long-tail keywords to sell to without knowing anything else about those searchers.

      You don't know, for example, whether people searching for beats per minute workout music are fitness instructors (which I strongly suspect) or consumers. You don't know their age range. You don't know their taste in music. You don't know what kind of workouts they're doing - whether running or indoor aerobics or rowing or whatever.

      I agree with the person who said this is not a copywriting problem. It's just not possible to construct a successful sales letter with so little understanding of the potential buyers and so much guessing.

      I know you're going to come back and say, but I've already created the product and this is my only hope of working myself out of the hole I'm in.

      That too has been the problem all along. What you really need to do is stand back, find a market you do understand and know a lot about, then as needed tinker your product to fit it and only then approach the task of writing copy.

      I'm sorry that this is not the kind of advice you wanted. But it's what you need.

      Marcia Yudkin
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      • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
        Originally Posted by marciayudkin View Post

        I think this thread illustrates the foolishness of creating a product without having an inkling who the potential customers are or why they would want it.

        It also shows the foolishness of picking some long-tail keywords to sell to without knowing anything else about those searchers.

        You don't know, for example, whether people searching for beats per minute workout music are fitness instructors (which I strongly suspect) or consumers. You don't know their age range. You don't know their taste in music. You don't know what kind of workouts they're doing - whether running or indoor aerobics or rowing or whatever.

        I agree with the person who said this is not a copywriting problem. It's just not possible to construct a successful sales letter with so little understanding of the potential buyers and so much guessing.

        I know you're going to come back and say, but I've already created the product and this is my only hope of working myself out of the hole I'm in.

        That too has been the problem all along. What you really need to do is stand back, find a market you do understand and know a lot about, then as needed tinker your product to fit it and only then approach the task of writing copy.

        I'm sorry that this is not the kind of advice you wanted. But it's what you need.

        Marcia Yudkin
        Marcia, my response is going to surprise you.

        You're probably right. This was an ill conceived idea.

        Moving on.

        I have 2 more projects that I am working on that, ironically, I do know more about.

        Here they are.

        1) Music producers use synthesizers to make a lot of their music. Programming synthesizer sounds is a long process. So what you will find, if you search, is sites that sell patches for various synthesizers. The going rate is usually $35 for about 150 patches for the top synths.

        Since I needed these synths to make my own music and because I have been programming synthesizers since 1979, I have made my own patches.

        Finally, I figured since I was already doing this for myself, why not create patches for the top synths and sell them. Out "deal" my competition. Create 200 patch banks and sell them for $20. Make demos of the sounds so people can of course hear them beforehand.

        I know this market very well. I know exactly what sounds people are looking for and I know how to create them.

        Obstacles? The players in this business who are already solidly entrenched. That is why I will need to start off selling more patches for less money. I think that will get my foot in the door.

        Other obstacles? A lot of people just share these patches once they buy them. Torrent sites are everywhere with these things. Kind of like what goes on with downloaded music. But I can't worry about that.

        The Sales Copy? I'll study how the big players are writing their copy and how they're presenting the sounds. A lot actually make videos where they demonstrate the sounds and even create one of them on the spot, in essence giving away a free sound.

        That's another thing I can do. Give a sample pack of maybe 30 sounds away for free.

        Point is, I know this market very well and don't know why I didn't think of doing this sooner, but what's done is done. There is definitely money to be made here.

        2) Second market has to do with those Easy Sketch Pro videos you see popping up on a lot of sales letters. I have the software, can make these videos myself and can also create my own custom music for them.

        Unless these product creators are making these videos themselves, there is a market here. Naturally, I would have to research this. I guess I would look to see if other people were offering this service. That shouldn't be too hard to do. I'll just pretend I'm a customer looking for these videos.

        Naturally, I will have to create samples of my work. The samples themselves should be good enough to speak for the quality my customer can expect.

        There you have it. These are the other two business models I'm currently working on.

        What do you think?
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        • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
      Whatta thread, huh?

      I have Mike Humphrey's voice in my head right now - telling me to keep it classy.

      Sorry Mike.

      This is BS.

      You paid $97 for a sales letter... and you're complaining? You got your money back?

      Sorry, but that demonstrates less than zero integrity.

      Give him or her every cent back. Right now. It's SO messed up that you got away with that.

      I don't care how bad it is.

      Here's why...

      You're unclear about, well... everything associated with this campaign. Even if you hired a decent $1,500 - $2,000 range copywriter - who fleshed out a proper letter, it still wouldn't get you anywhere.

      You can't pour perfume on a pig.

      Rick tried to help you. He gave you some awesome gems to spend hours - if not days researching. You didn't do it.

      In terms of whether there's a market for this...

      Maybe there is... maybe there isn't... in some incarntion...

      But if this thread tells me anything, you aren't getting there... where ever there is.

      Steve, I'm sure you're a good guy. Do the right thing. Give your copywriter his or her money back.

      Mark

      P.S. Rick missed the fact that The Rock is also The People's Champion and The Most Electrifying Man in Entertainment.
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  • Profile picture of the author jjosephs
    Guys, I'm missing an arm, and it sucks. I would do anything to have one.

    In a perfect world would pay a qualified surgeon for a custom prosthetic, but I haven't got the budget. So I had the local auto shop weld a plastic kitchen spatula onto my stump instead.

    Trouble is the spatula doesn't have opposing thumbs, or any fingers for that matter. It's making it very difficult to drive, do pushups, and and caress my wife lovingly.

    Look I know what you're going to say, so I'll beat you to it: My spatula arm needs some work. Maybe even alot of work. And I'm willing to go the distance.

    So don't hold back. Tell me exactly how you would improve my spatula arm. I'll take any criticism, unless you're another biased spatula arm hater. Let's keep this topic constructive.

    **EDIT- FYI, the above is satire. I have two healthy full-grown arms in real life. No spatula necessary.
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    • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
      Ya know I generally avoid Steven's "woe is me" threads and really don't have the desire to get into it, but these seem to be his problems:

      *He's trying to sell something no one (or very few people) wants, and ZERO people actually need.

      *His copywriting skill is... shall we say, not up to par.

      *...however, he refuses to spend money on a quality copywriter and demands money back from someone who did a $97 job (lol)

      *He refuses to take the best advice given to him.

      *Maybe most importantly, he's stuck in a poverty "I need to make this work FOR ME" mentality.

      Sorry Steven, but you need a VAST shift in your attitude and priorities before anyone can really help you. This thread will remain completely worthless until the above issues are addressed.
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
      Originally Posted by jjosephs View Post

      Tell me exactly how you would improve my spatula arm. I'll take any criticism, unless you're another biased spatula arm hater. Let's keep this topic constructive.
      I'd put a motorized "beater" welded to the stump instead of the spatula. Much more useful. You can whip up eggs, meringue , cake mix ... the possibilities are unlimited.
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      • Profile picture of the author CopyMonster
        STOP! I want to play devil's advocate for a second. Yeah, I'm the kid in the corner who says WHY not?

        While I agree with much about what's been said before (especially Marcia), I think this project can be saved.

        The problem with the present perspective is that it's taking aim at the market segment that wants the easy way out. The ones who are allergic to walking into the gym - they want to eat the donut and lose 20 lbs in a week while sitting on the couch watching reruns of Mike and Molly.

        There is another group. The fanatics. The hard core animals who hunt down anything and everything to get an edge. They've been known to stick sharp metal objects into their bodies with weird compounds just to get that edge.

        Maybe THIS is the segment you can set your sights on.

        You'd have to make your case for effectiveness and position the branding properly, but it can work.

        You're NOT selling workout music... you're selling a natural stimulant - one that is absorbed through the ears.

        This group already buys supplements by the truckloads - so you're feeding into an already existing habit (always good when selling anything).

        You have to position your stuff against the "standard" Rihanna, Timberlake tracks - that pop or rock stuff is purely for "wannabes". Your stuff is the real deal - it delivers the edge.

        I'm in the camp of you can sell ANYTHING (pet rocks, sea monkeys anyone?) I'm not saying you should but for me, it's certainly possible to sell anything.

        I just caught a presentation by Dan Kennedy talking about how you can actually buy water that is "produced" with a production line made up with people chanting and focusing on positive thoughts. So it's NOT just average, everyday water, it is "positive energy" water. And people buy it.

        If you were to layer in some mantras or quotes ("I am the beast", "Be the beast" etc) into your tracks it may go down even better.

        Label your tracks to appeal for this market.

        eg. The Beast, T-Rex, Monster, Badass, Alien, Shredded Animal etc.

        In terms of pricing, look to charge MORE, not less. You're NOT selling throw-away pop tracks. Obviously, the design and copy needs to match the concept and positioning.

        Then if your tracks are semi-decent, set up a membership where they get a new set of tracks every month.

        BAM recurring moolah! The best kind.

        Now to make it almost passive (find music producers/djs who will produce tracks to your specifications).

        I'm not saying this would work for sure, but this positioning could work.

        Okay, back to your normal programming.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jack Gordon
          Originally Posted by CopyMonster View Post

          You're NOT selling workout music... you're selling a natural stimulant - one that is absorbed through the ears.
          You are essentially turning it into the "iphone" problem - something nobody knows they need yet.

          I get it, and I agree that turns it into a potentially successful niche product. Very niche. But that shouldn't scare anyone. If anything, it is permission to go really overboard with it into the fanatical workout cults.

          It is a solid repositioning effort. But I suspect for it to work, OP will have to overcome at least one really big problem:

          He is still competing with the artists that have successfully won over his prospects, and made that critical emotional connection through their music. This product would have to really work. Fanatics are willing to try anything once, but if it doesn't feel like it had much impact, they'll go right back to Metallica. Hell, even if it does work, they'll probably get tired of it after a little while and go back to the music that makes them feel happy.

          I would set up some focus groups comprised of workout fanatics from a few big (i.e. influential) gyms. Give it to them for free and ask them to use it exclusively for a week.

          Get their honest feedback. With that, you'll know if you've got something to work with. If it is positive, you'll also have testimonials to start out with. If it is anything less than positive, you should probably just walk away, because without good word of mouth on something like this, you'll be struggling the whole way (if not dead in the water).
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          • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
            I wanted to report some encouraging news. It has nothing to do with this product, which I am putting on the back burner for now.

            I contacted somebody in the synth patch creation industry that I mentioned above and essentially he told me that if my sounds are good enough (what people are looking for) we may have something. One recent patch library did 11K in sales. So I sent him a large sample of my work and am waiting to hear back from him.

            If this works out, this will be my new business model. I can program synth patches all day. It's creative, it's interesting and it's in huge demand by synth owners.

            But I have to be very, very good for this person to take me on.

            So I'm going to ask just one last favor. It's not a big one. At least I don't think it is.

            Just wish me luck. That's all. I'm not looking for anymore favors. Just keep a good thought that this opportunity will pull me out of this hole I'm in. One library doing 11K in sales (split 50/50) would be half the income I need to get me through the year. It won't make me rich, but it'll keep me going.

            That's all. I'm sorry I've been a big pain in the ass. I don't deserve any of your sympathy or support and I realize that. So I'm not going to ask for it anymore. But I've had people here tell me they hope I fall on my face and fail. I only ask that you not wish that on me. That's all. I don't really believe that people's wishes come true, but the less negativity I have to deal with right now, the better I'll feel about my chances.

            And with that, I won't be returning back here unless I have definitive news on my potential JV. And if that goes well and becomes my new life, you won't have to deal with me any longer. The WF will be just a memory to me as I realize that I've overstayed my welcome and have nobody to blame but myself.

            Take care and God bless.
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          • Profile picture of the author satrap
            Originally Posted by Jack Gordon View Post

            You are essentially turning it into the "iphone" problem - something nobody knows they need yet.

            I get it, and I agree that turns it into a potentially successful niche product. Very niche. But that shouldn't scare anyone. If anything, it is permission to go really overboard with it into the fanatical workout cults.

            It is a solid repositioning effort. But I suspect for it to work, OP will have to overcome at least one really big problem:

            He is still competing with the artists that have successfully won over his prospects, and made that critical emotional connection through their music. This product would have to really work. Fanatics are willing to try anything once, but if it doesn't feel like it had much impact, they'll go right back to Metallica. Hell, even if it does work, they'll probably get tired of it after a little while and go back to the music that makes them feel happy.

            I would set up some focus groups comprised of workout fanatics from a few big (i.e. influential) gyms. Give it to them for free and ask them to use it exclusively for a week.

            Get their honest feedback. With that, you'll know if you've got something to work with. If it is positive, you'll also have testimonials to start out with. If it is anything less than positive, you should probably just walk away, because without good word of mouth on something like this, you'll be struggling the whole way (if not dead in the water).
            Great suggestion.
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    • Profile picture of the author OUTFOXED
      Originally Posted by jjosephs View Post

      Guys, I'm missing an arm, and it sucks. I would do anything to have one.

      In a perfect world would pay a qualified surgeon for a custom prosthetic, but I haven't got the budget. So I had the local auto shop weld a plastic kitchen spatula onto my stump instead.

      Trouble is the spatula doesn't have opposing thumbs, or any fingers for that matter. It's making it very difficult to drive, do pushups, and and caress my wife lovingly.

      Look I know what you're going to say, so I'll beat you to it: My spatula arm needs some work. Maybe even alot of work. And I'm willing to go the distance.

      So don't hold back. Tell me exactly how you would improve my spatula arm. I'll take any criticism, unless you're another biased spatula arm hater. Let's keep this topic constructive.

      **EDIT- FYI, the above is satire. I have two healthy full-grown arms in real life. No spatula necessary.

      LMFAO!! I love it!
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  • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
    Banned
    I do wish you good luck in your ventures.
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    Oh dude. You fall over... you pick yourself up. You fall over again... and pick yourself up. Comes a time when you don't fall any more.

    You are a bit of a "pain in the ass" but at least you're having a go. Hang in there. There is a Santa Claus.
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    • Profile picture of the author Nate Simms
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post

      There is a Santa Claus.
      Jesus christ, I haven't laughed that hard at a comment in a long time.

      Thanks, Nazi. You strike again.
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    • Profile picture of the author positivenegative
      Originally Posted by The Copy Nazi View Post


      Hang in there. There is a Santa Claus.

      In Steve's case, a Sanity Clause.
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  • Profile picture of the author OUTFOXED
    Simply put, you've got to do your research no matter how long it takes you. In a previous post to a similar question I answered as follows:


    When I begin a project, I first find out who my target is. I do this by becoming the target...kinda like profiling. If the project is about something I'm not too familiar with, I google the subject matter (for example, farming) like this: "farmers forum" include the quotes. Google will bring back a whole slew of forums that deal specifically with farmers.

    I then join several of the forums and lurk for a few days. I'm looking for buzz words, common gripes, personality traits, and anything that will help me "become" the farmer.

    I then do the same type of google search for "farmer newsletters" and repeat the process as I did with forums. I'm trying to identify with the farmer. I try see life through his eyes. I especially look for the most common complaints that a farmer faces everyday. I try to live his life, to feel what he feels, to identify the triggers.

    This process has been failsafe for me. Yes, it does take time to complete the research. But, what you uncover in this fashion will ALWAYS put you in a better position to befriending your prospect than anyone else's opinion. I never rely upon someone else's opinion.

    Only after I truly feel I have a good understanding of who my prospect is, will I even think about putting pen to paper.

    After doing research, if you find that the market is too narrow or non existent, you gotta let it go.
    But whatever you do, never give up!
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Pescetti
    First of all...

    You never get enough of what you really don't want.

    And...

    Results don't lie. (My catchphrase.)

    Steve came here looking for advice. But if I were to dig a little deeper, he was looking for validation just a little more. He didn't get it. And he immediately goes on the defensive.

    I know I already said it (so I repeat it a little differently)...

    But I personally feel like this whole thread is an act of enabling. He blamed a $97 copywriter for a failure that couldn't salvage his positioning for an extra $5,000. (And he decided to demonstrate zero accountability in the process by getting his money back.)

    To me...

    That's cowardly. If nothing else, it shows no integrity whatsoever. All because of what, someone saying the copy was horrible? Did he honestly walk into a $97 relationship hoping to unlock 10's of thousands of dollars in profits (to save himself financially?) Because if so, I don't believe he's even remotely interested in changing his circumstances. Why? Simple. You gotta SHOW UP as someone different... to change anything.

    I'm not bashing you Steve. But I am questioning your ethics. And to shrug this whole thread off by saying you have other, better ideas tells me a lot about your character.

    So while Angie brought some awesome points that newbies can learn from in this thread, here's another pearl of wisdom:

    If you want to change your circustances, take the kind of action that's capable of getting the results you want, need and deserve.

    And stop pretending the world's against you. It's not. It's called the "you are your own worst enemy disease." And yes, it's an epidemic. But there is a cure. It starts with taking responsibility, first and foremost.

    Mark
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  • Profile picture of the author The Copy Nazi
    Banned
    ^ yep. Desperate is never a good place to be.
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    Rick, what an amazing post. And what great ideas. I wasn't going to come back but I had to reply to this. Everything you just outlined above is exactly what I should have done from the onset, but I was desperate just to make something, anything, as quickly as possible.

    In short, as you said, my initial idea has no chance at all and I should have realized that. But desperation and being at the end of your rope will make you do stupid things. I may have always been a pain in the ass, but I was never this stupid. I didn't have a successful business by luck. I researched what people wanted (the RIGHT way) and I gave it to them. Had my traffic generation methods not gone out the window, I still would have been doing that.

    But there's no point crying over spilled milk.

    I'm going to copy and paste your post into a Word Doc for future reference. If this deal with this person falls through (I sent him my samples and am waiting to hear if they're good enough) then what I'm going to do is restart this whole project from scratch. I'm going to do the research the RIGHT way. I know it's going to take a long time. Maybe months or even a year or more. I don't know. I have no doubt there is a lot I have to cover and at the end of it, I may find there is no market period. But at this point, I have nothing to lose by doing this the RIGHT way.

    I truly am sorry for behaving like such a jackass. My defense is the state that my mind is in. It's not a pretty place. I don't wish this on anyone, not even my worst enemy. I've made less money this year than my very first year marketing online when I had just a little more than a clue. I'm smarter than this and I should be better than this. But my head is in such a bad place right now that I can't think straight. The simplest tasks take all my brain power. That's why the sales letter I wrote was so God damned awful,

    Anyway, you've given me a lot of great resources to look at and some incredible ideas. If this last ditch effort falls through, and no doubt it probably will, I'm going to use those ideas. It may lead to a dead end anyway, but at least I've known that I went about this the RIGHT way.

    Thank you. I mean that truly. And again, I'm sorry for being so stupid. There is no better word for it because that's what I am right now. Stupid, stubborn and schizoid. I should start a support group called "The Three S's"

    I'm sure there are plenty of available candidates..
    No problem.

    I know my words while helpful, can sting like a muther. It's even more reason I'm glad you understood and appreciated.

    - Rick Duris

    PS: I'll reply to your post in more detail by Sunday.

    PPS: One piece of advice right now: Get some upfront, skin-in-the-game money from that partner before you spend a lot of time for nothing. It doesn't have to be a lot. Just some good faith money. He should appreciate your caution.
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  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
    Get a job, steve.
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    • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
      Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

      Get a job, steve.
      I had one. A very good one up until 2000. Then came the downsizing. After 3 years of looking for work and getting nothing but a temp job sticking labels on law briefs for $7 a hour working the graveyard shift (the absolute lowest time of my life) I finally gave up looking and turned to the Internet.

      Nobody is going to hire me at my age (I'm close to retirement age) and pay me anything other than minimum wage in spite of my skills.

      So make light of my situation and make jokes all you want. If you knew what I've been through, you wouldn't. But I expect nothing less from this place.

      It's why I pray for the day that I never have to come back here again as the hostility here is despicable.

      At least Rick was trying to help me, and he has.

      Your comment does nothing but remind me of how much I hate it here.

      And if you think you're funny, you're not.

      Not to somebody who's fighting to keep a roof over his head.

      Like I said, it's pretty much what I expect when I come here.
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      • Profile picture of the author Kay King
        It's why I pray for the day that I never have to come back here again as the hostility here is despicable.

        ....Your comment does nothing but remind me of how much I hate it here.

        You'll like Rick until he gives up on you - and if you have enemies here it's because YOUR attitude turned people away.

        Same thread - different day. Don't let the door hit ya....
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        • Profile picture of the author Steven Wagenheim
          Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

          You'll like Rick until he gives up on you - and if you have enemies here it's because YOUR attitude turned people away.

          Same thread - different day. Don't let the door hit ya....
          His comment was uncalled for. You can defend it and make excuses for it all you want, but it was uncalled for.
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          • Profile picture of the author Cool Hand Luke
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            His comment was uncalled for. You can defend it and make excuses for it all you want, but it was uncalled for.
            So is your poor attitude and lack of gratitude for those here who are telling you an uncomfortable truth that you desperately need to hear.

            Good luck man, you're gonna need it if you ever want to end your pity party and climb out of the hole you continue to dig yourself into..
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          • Profile picture of the author Cali16
            Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

            His comment was uncalled for. You can defend it and make excuses for it all you want, but it was uncalled for.
            No, Steve, his comment wasn't uncalled for. Countless people in situations similar to yours - broke, desperate, asking for advice - have gotten the very same advice - to get a job. Yes, we know all the reasons why you can't / won't consider that option. What was uncalled for was your rude response. Classic Steve. Every time you start to show some humility, it rapidly dissipates like a vapor as soon as someone says something you don't like.

            The "despicable hostility" you perceive to experience here is due to the way you treat people. You have no one to blame for it but yourself. Several posts above, you seemed to get that. Then just a few posts later you're right back to blaming everyone else for it and playing the victim. That's what makes it essentially impossible to believe your occasional attempts at humility and personal accountability are genuine.

            I wonder how much longer til this thread is closed, just like all the others you've started...
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      • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        So make light of my situation and make jokes all you want. If you knew what I've been through, you wouldn't. But I expect nothing less from this place.

        It's why I pray for the day that I never have to come back here again as the hostility here is despicable.

        ...

        Your comment does nothing but remind me of how much I hate it here.

        And if you think you're funny, you're not.

        Not to somebody who's fighting to keep a roof over his head.

        Like I said, it's pretty much what I expect when I come here.
        There were a lot of people who got a lot worse from you back when you were an arrogant 6 figure asshole marketer.

        I remember one poor guy who got reamed from you for pm'ing you ... like you were God or something and you don't PM God. Turns out he was a customer of yours and a music fan and just wanted to discuss some beats. Do you remember that? There were hundreds of instances where you were so much better than everyone else and rude as all get out.

        Now you wonder why some are hostile to you. You are such a Drama Queen ... honestly. It is really so tiresome, especially with this attitude above like you've done nothing to deserve it.

        Anyone wants to know how combative and obnoxious Steve is when getting good advice from people who don't need to spend their time on him, just go to his profile and click on Threads started by Steve. Many of them been closed .... all of them are a train wreck.

        When someone has that many "train wreck" threads, whose fault is it? Where do you look? Inside yourself, perhaps? No, not Steve. It's the bad Warrior Forum who is out to get him. Cry me a river Buddy. I did wish you well, but I mostly wish you gone.
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      • Profile picture of the author splitTest
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        I had one. A very good one up until 2000. Then came the downsizing. After 3 years of looking for work and getting nothing but a temp job sticking labels on law briefs for $7 a hour working the graveyard shift (the absolute lowest time of my life) I finally gave up looking and turned to the Internet.

        Nobody is going to hire me at my age (I'm close to retirement age) and pay me anything other than minimum wage in spite of my skills.

        So make light of my situation and make jokes all you want. If you knew what I've been through, you wouldn't. But I expect nothing less from this place.

        It's why I pray for the day that I never have to come back here again as the hostility here is despicable.

        At least Rick was trying to help me, and he has.

        Your comment does nothing but remind me of how much I hate it here.

        And if you think you're funny, you're not.

        Not to somebody who's fighting to keep a roof over his head.

        Like I said, it's pretty much what I expect when I come here.
        I wasn't being snide, I just thought getting a job would be the most practical solution for you. You seem too down in the dumps and desperate for entrepreneurship, and if your marketing sense is as weak and flighty as you exhibit in this thread, you're probably better off doing it on the side than depending on it for your living.

        I didn't know about your age though and the difficulty you're having finding a job. Sorry to hear that.

        On the other hand, your attitude seems so defeatist that maybe (just maybe) it's impacting your job search and employment prospects...?

        I don't know you, though -- never walked in your shoes -- so I wish you the best. In fact, I hope you'll continue to visit the board and update us on whatever solution you find. It will be nice to see you rebound. (That is, if you're not in fact a very patient troll -- a suspicion that always occurs to me as I read your threads...)

        Anyway, in other news...

        To all you "6-figure" copywriters out there, why not take steve under your wing as a special project? Since making it as a copywriter is as easy as "dipping your hat into the rivers of cash flowing by", surely one of you can make something of steve, a dude with experience and motivation. Then post the success story here and every noob from here to timbuktu will sign up for your ebook/course or whatever. Give back, you six figurers!
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        • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
          Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

          To all you "6-figure" copywriters out there, why not take steve under your wing as a special project? Since making it as a copywriter is as easy as dipping your hat into the rivers of cash flowing by, surely one of you can make something of steve, a dude with experience and motivation. Then post the success story here and every noob from here to timbuktu will sign up for your ebook/course or whatever. Give back, you six figurers!
          It's already a challenge for a mentor to take on someone who WANTS to learn. What on earth makes it worth an expert's time to take on someone who knows it all before they've started?

          Personally, I'm not a fan of repeating myself 50 times and beating my head against the wall, no matter how hardcore I could sell it later.
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          • Profile picture of the author splitTest
            Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

            It's already a challenge for a mentor to take on someone who WANTS to learn. What on earth makes it worth an expert's time to take on someone who knows it all before they've started?

            Personally, I'm not a fan of repeating myself 50 times and beating my head against the wall, no matter how hardcore I could sell it later.
            Well, steve -- you're up! Tell the purty lady you're ready to put aside your ego and do whatever she says to do, when she says to do it.

            She's not a six-figurer, but we'd all like to see you rebound (and watch angie go hardcore).
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            • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
              Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

              Well, steve -- you're up! Tell the purty lady you're ready to put aside your ego and do whatever she says to do, when she says to do it.

              She's not a six-figurer, but we'd all like to see you rebound (and watch angie go hardcore).
              What part of that was an offer?

              I have no interest or desire in mentoring someone right now, six figure producer or not. Even if I did, mentors get paid. It's a sign of respect and putting some skin in the game. Time is money. Charity cases are few and far between.

              I'm still not entirely sure why getting paid is such a bad thing to you if it comes from a corporation instead of freelancing. But to each his or her own, I suppose.
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              • Profile picture of the author splitTest
                Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                What part of that was an offer?

                I have no interest or desire in mentoring someone right now, six figure producer or not. Even if I did, mentors get paid. It's a sign of respect and putting some skin in the game. Time is money. Charity cases are few and far between.
                Most "mentors" aren't paid, but...

                ...Fair enough re: mentoring steve (that is, if he even wants that ...) It was just a suggestion on my part, to prove (or disprove) some of the things people here say about freelance copywriting as a road to riches (a road steve could really use right now)...

                But regarding this part:

                Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                I'm still not entirely sure why getting paid is such a bad thing to you if it comes from a corporation instead of freelancing.
                That's a conversation going on strictly in your own mind. I notice you wrote much the same thing about my posts in other threads, but it has nothing to do with anything I ever wrote.

                You make it sound like I'm putting you down because you have a staff position. Where in this thread are you reading that? Where in other threads, in fact?

                You keep inferring that based on god-knows-what...

                Nothing wrong with staff work if that's what you like... Nothing wrong with freelancing... Nothing wrong with moonlighting... Obviously. I'm just curious why you keep saying that.

                Do you look down on staff work?
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                • Profile picture of the author angiecolee
                  Originally Posted by splitTest View Post

                  Most "mentors" aren't paid, but...

                  ...Fair enough re: mentoring steve (that is, if he even wants that ...) It was just a suggestion on my part, to prove (or disprove) some of the things people here say about freelance copywriting as a road to riches (a road steve could really use right now)...

                  But regarding this part:



                  That's a conversation going on strictly in your own mind. I notice you wrote much the same thing about my posts in other threads, but it has nothing to do with anything I ever wrote.

                  You make it sound like I'm putting you down because you have a staff position. Where in this thread are you reading that? Where in other threads, in fact?

                  You keep inferring that based on god-knows-what...

                  Nothing wrong with staff work if that's what you like... Nothing wrong with freelancing... Nothing wrong with moonlighting... Obviously. I'm just curious why you keep saying that. Do you look down on staff work?
                  For someone interested in copywriting, you're completely oblivious to the tone of the words you select.
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                  • Profile picture of the author splitTest
                    Originally Posted by angiecolee View Post

                    For someone interested in copywriting, you're completely oblivious to the tone of the words you select.
                    okaaay..

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      • Profile picture of the author Cam Connor
        Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

        Not to somebody who's fighting to keep a roof over his head.
        This is sad to hear... from previous comments, it sounded like you were someone who was wealthy enough to file lawsuits like silly.

        Sorry to hear it...
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  • Profile picture of the author ajitpalgill
    Just to point out something, your customers are not interested in the beats or the sound or the tempo or the research. What they are interested in is what would all this mean to them. WIIFM. Speak from the benefit point of view. Does it help them improve performance? Does it help them loose weight? Does it keep them motivated? Does it make them workout longer?

    What is your unique selling proposition? (UPS) I dont see it.. perhaps something you could ponder abt. As for design, in my opinion, its too dry.

    Basically this is a sales letter, and you could turn your sales letter into a story. Man or woman has problems your target market has. Used your product.. and BANG!!! Got the results they want in X amount of time.

    You could also do split tests, and the data will tell you which copy works better. Whats the conversion like for the old copy and whats the conversion like for this copy. Numbers dont lie.

    Best Regards,
    Ajitpal
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  • Profile picture of the author ThomasOMalley
    Give Steve a break. He just doesn't realize he needs some serious counseling...LOL.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    It's why I pray for the day that I never have to come back here again as the hostility here is despicable.
    I take back what I wrote previously. You haven't changed at all. This tells me you're not taking any responsibility for some of the hostility that has been directed at you. In one post you write, "Sorry I've been such a pain in the ass". And then you come back with writing something like this.

    You take one step forward and then you take two steps back.

    Your comment does nothing but remind me of how much I hate it here.

    And if you think you're funny, you're not.

    Not to somebody who's fighting to keep a roof over his head.

    Like I said, it's pretty much what I expect when I come here.
    You get what you expect and you reap what you sow.

    For the longest time I was one of your most ardent defenders because I thought you were misunderstood and that you were being bullied. Boy did I have you pegged wrong. You have destroyed a lot of good will here. There were people here, like Rick (and many others), who gave you some GREAT advice, advice that I've seen people pay a lot of money for.

    You don't know how to handle constructive criticism and that's one of your biggest obstacles to finding the success you are looking for. No, let me rephrase, it is the singlest biggest obstacle to what you are looking for.

    And I'll agree with Mark, this whole thread is definitely an enabler thread. But I'll tell you what, I'm not making that mistake again. You say you "hate" this place and that you won't come back, and that statement says it all.

    You had some people in your corner, like me, but once I read what you wrote I was done. You consistently apply the logical fallacy of paint-brushing this entire place by the actions of a few people, some of whom's actions were in response to YOUR actions and YOUR attitude.

    You say you won't come back. Well, this time, I hope you mean it.

    RoD
    Signature
    "Your personal philosophy is the greatest determining factor in how your life works out."
    - Jim Rohn
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  • Profile picture of the author RickDuris
    Steve, here's the best coaching I can give you at this crucial time:

    Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Have multiple irons in the fire. Keep at least 3 plates spinning.

    Jay Abraham would say have multiple marketing pillars.

    If something fails, replace it immediately with something else.

    Do that and SOMETHING will click for you. Something will catch fire. Something will hit paydirt.

    Rarely can you predict what it is. That's why I suggest spreading your risk.

    The key is staying in action on multiple fronts.

    I hope this helps you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground
    Impressed with the level of knowledge of the experts on this sub-forum. Normally on other forums you get advice that wildly differs from person to person, but here everyone knew instantly the copy was written with absolutely no researching of the target market. Written from selfish desperation.


    Some people just don't have the normal ability to be able to emphasise with others and see things from their point of view, like narcissists. And Steve, apparently.
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