Why You Should NEVER Hire a Cheap Copywriter

15 years ago

Dan, right on man.

Paul, we all have to start somewhere. There's nothing wrong with pumping out $100 letters at all. We have all done it at one point or another.

However, the thing people need to realize is, if they can afford it, their business will be MUCH better off by hiring a copywriter who charges more.

Dan talked about it a little, and I'd like to expand on the idea of money.

Right now I charge between $2k and $4k for a sales letter (with design). By charging that amount, I am able to spend two solid weeks on a letter, and on nothing else. By having that sort of time input, I can take all the time in the world to research the niche, the buyers, the owner, the product, and anything else that needs to be researched.

It's mega-important that research takes time. If you rush it, you won't get every last drop of info-y goodness out of the material. Clients that are truly IN BUSINESS understand this. Clients that are just getting started out on the highway to making money on their own don't quite yet.

Again, that's ok. Everyone starts out somewhere. I guess that's the point I'd like to get across.

Those new to business (if they are low on funds) are going to do decently by hiring a green copywriter. Those who have been around the block are MUCH more likely to hire someone that has proven themselves time and time again.

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Raydal

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Onslaught

I feel there are two totally different situations here. Because it
is on this forum and a lot of people are new I just wanted
to make a point- Don't mortgage your home on a product that is
yet unproven.

The best copy in the world will not save a unneeded thingy

I totally agree with you here Paul. If a copywriter can even
'smell' that the product is poor (as well as the prospect) it
is unethical to take his money.

If a prospect approaches me and I know in my belly that they
can't afford my fees AND the product is not likely to sell then
I ask them to try someone else.

Plus, it will be too stressful to write for a client whose life
depended on the success of my copy. I really don't need
that added pressure, thank you.

-Ray Edwards

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MaskedMarketer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter.

If you're saying there are decent, cheap, copywriters out there, why should people NEVER hire one?

I just saw one of the copy guys on this forum do a promotion for copy for less than $200 bucks. And he writes well.

Marketing can be profitable with decent copy and offers will still convert.

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Hugh Thyer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

If you're saying there are decent, cheap, copywriters out there, why should people NEVER hire one?

I just saw one of the copy guys on this forum do a promotion for copy for less than $200 bucks. And he writes well.

Marketing can be profitable with decent copy and offers will still convert.

Yes, but if his client gets a fair bit of traffic and has a decent offer, how many more sales will the client have to get to cover the extra fees? If its a $30 eBook, the better writer only has to help sell 100 more to pay their $3000 fees. After that they're left with a higher converting page that'll earn them much more.

Its not how much money the cheaper writer makes, its how much more a better writer COULD make.

I understand what you're saying Onslaught. Not everyone can afford the higher fees. But their aim should be to get as good a sales letter as they can afford written, and then plow all their profits back into a better writer ASAP to build up their business.

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MaskedMarketer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer

Yes, but if his client gets a fair bit of traffic and has a decent offer, how many more sales will the client have to get to cover the extra fees? If its a $30 eBook, the better writer only has to help sell 100 more to pay their $3000 fees. After that they're left with a higher converting page that'll earn them much more.

I understand how a better copywriter can make more money.

There is a market out there for cheap, decent, copywriters. Not everyone can afford copy at 1k or more. And that's cheap for a good copywriter!

Originally Posted by Hugh Thyer

Its not how much money the cheaper writer makes, its how much more a better writer COULD make.

What does it matter how much a better copywriter could hypothetically get someone if they can't afford it?

That's the point. Not everyone can afford a high priced copywriter.

And decent ones still convert and make money.

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MontelloMarketing

15 years ago

Sorry to jump in but why do so many disregard the idea that sure... there are needles to be found in the haystack... but they're few and far between. MOST of the time hiring someone who can't command more than $200 a sales letter, you're going to get a $200 sales letter. And $200 sales letters don't make you 6 figures... 5 figures... or even mid-4 figures.

And that's just for sales letters. Early on I was approached to write 10 autoresponders for $150. That's $15 per email. How much time does a copywriter have to weave persuasion into an email he's getting paid $15 for?

You know, I don't come to the warrior forum looking for work. My clients tend to be elsewhere. 90% of the time I'm here just trying to help people not make costly mistakes.

So... when I say you should at least... AT LEAST get to 4 figures when looking for a copywriter to write a sales letter, I'm not doing it to serve myself at all. It's just that there's a big difference (in most cases) between a $200 copywriter and even a $1,000 copywriter.

There is an ancillary benefit to me, however.

If these young marketers are kept from making big mistakes, they have a better chance to hire one of my students next time. And hiring one of them gives them a better chance of affording me in a year or two. So... sure I'm not being completely altruistic. But still the person benefiting most from my advice is the young marketer.

If you've only got $200 today... then don't launch yet. Save up some more money... get a more proven copywriter. Or better yet... Spend your $200 on some great learning material and learn to write it yourself!

Copy is an extremely important part of marketing. If you can do it yourself think how much you can save... and make in the future!

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MikeHumphreys

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MontelloMarketing

If you've only got $200 today... then don't launch yet. Save up some more money... get a more proven copywriter. Or better yet... Spend your $200 on some great learning material and learn to write it yourself!

Copy is an extremely important part of marketing. If you can do it yourself think how much you can save... and make in the future!

This might be the best piece of advice in the whole thread IMHO. Copywriting is the most expensive thing to outsource for an online business because it's probably the most important part. And it's the one service that many people mistakenly shop on price instead of the copywriter's reputation, track record, and skill level for delivering great copy.

When I owned a massage therapy center, I couldn't afford to hire a good marketing consultant or copywriter then. My overhead was just too high to justify paying out hundreds or even thousands of dollars for help.

So I took some time and learned how to write my own marketing. It turns out I enjoyed doing it so I kept studying and practicing my craft. Eventually I decided to do it professionally and the rest is history.

If you know how to write a basic sales letter then you will never find yourself in a bind when you need copywriting help.

If you can't afford to hire a copywriter... or just as likely, you can't find a good copywriter that can take your project and deliver in time to meet your deadline, then you can always write a basic sales letter yourself.

Plenty of your online gurus have learned how to write decent or even fairly good copy themselves for this reason alone.

Some of the best affiliate promotional emails I've ever read are written by John Reese and Yanik Silver... neither one is a copywriter for hire.

Food for thought,

Mike

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PhiltheBear

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

And it's the one service that many people mistakenly shop on price instead of the copywriter's reputation, track record, and skill level for delivering great copy.

Which is exactly why the title of this thread is a load of rubbish.

Great copywriters usually cost most - because they have experience and a good track record.

Good copywriters usually cost a bit less - largely because they don't have the lenght of experience.

BUT

At the end of the day it's all down to the skill of the individual - and NOTHING else.

I've seen some unbelievably bad copy by 'gurus' like Ted Nicholas - and some great copy by people who've just gone out and written their own thing. But it's 100% the case that cost doesn't equate with great.

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

If you're saying there are decent, cheap, copywriters out there, why should people NEVER hire one?

I just saw one of the copy guys on this forum do a promotion for copy for less than $200 bucks. And he writes well.

Marketing can be profitable with decent copy and offers will still convert.

MM,

Here's the thing... most people can't if someone CAN write good copy or not.

Sure, you can look at their work and see that they know how to string a sentence together... but unless you have basic copywriting skills you won't be able to tell if their writing is likely to convert or not.

Now, I don't know who you are talking about in this specific instance. Someone like Kev, yeah, I would bet his copy will convert... but he's the exception, not the rule (and I dare say he won't be writing at $200 a letter for long!)

Most people don't understand how hard it is to write a letter. I go through around 50 headlines or so each letter I write... I've heard other copywriters go through more. So a headline, a little 10-word phrase... that takes me hours to write properly. And the rest of the letter is like that too.

Most cheap copywriters don't spend the time researching OR editing that is so crucial to a killer letter.

That's why it looks great (to the untrained eye) but doesn't convert.

As I've said... this is all hard-won (for me, anyway) knowledge that I'm passing on. You can either take it or leave it... it doesn't affect me either way. I'm just hoping I can help others avoid making the same mistakes I did.

-Dan

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CDarklock 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

unless you have basic copywriting skills you won't be able to tell if their writing is likely to convert or not.

This is something people struggle with in LOTS of industries.

As a software developer and as a project manager, I have seen a lot of people out there delivering crap work at low prices. But when you don't really know what those people do, it's hard to tell the difference between "$5,000 crap I don't understand" and "$150,000 crap I don't understand".

I have yet to find a good way to tell clients "you don't know squat about this, so just pay the invoice and trust me".
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TimCastleman

15 years ago

Dan:

I get what you are saying but remember the internet has a memory:

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...24-closed.html

Where you offered your own cheap sales letters when you got started. I know you're far beyond that now but remember when in glass house stones should not be played with.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

15 years ago

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TimCastleman

15 years ago

WP -

Have no fear, my post was not meant to bash anyone. I agree that if you are running your business you need to spend what you can afford to run your business.

If you only have $99, you can try a cheaper copywriter or spend the money and learn copy for yourself. The choice is yours.

I know for a fact that Dan is making better money now and is mentoring wit Vin so his big paydays are coming.

Tim

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

15 years ago

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Originally Posted by WordPro

I didn't take it as a personal 'bash' - I did however see it as rather interesting in light of some recent posts elsewhere by this same gentleman directed towards myself.

Especially considering that his previous Cheap WSO Copywriting Offer was only made some TEN or so weeks ago.

In short it made me silently mouth the words - 'kettle, black'.

That's all.

Thanks for bringing my attention to the point.

Wishing you a great day and my kindest regards.

Mark

Mark,

As I said, we all start somewhere... and I make no secret of the fact I used to work for cheap.

But, as you yourself pointed out, that didn't last long... and with that WSO I had absolutely ZERO examples of my portfolio etc... Hell, I didn't even have a website selling my services!

In fact, Tim Castleman was actually the guy who indirectly got me into the idea of writing copy for other people... and initially the one who pushed me to charge more! (Thanks, Tim)

I've hired cheap copywriters before... and it never worked out for me. I now understand why... and I'm just trying to share this information with the rest of the forum.

I used to think writing a letter was maybe 5 hours work, tops... needless to say, I was naiive.

I'm not trying to be a dick to you, Mark... I'm just trying to share some of the insights I've picked up recently. You can either accept that there may be a few pointers I've picked up... or you can continue to think I'm out to get you (or whatever).

I wished someone would have shared this info with me when I was starting out... so I realized WHY good copy costs money. I figured there would be others who might benefit from it.

You don't have to take my advice on board. And I can see how this might be misconstrued as hypocritical... but it's not.

I'm not saying all cheap writers are terrible... but I would guess that 99% of the time if someone hires a cheap writer, they'll get crappy copy... and to me that 1% isn't enough of a reason to take a gamble.

As I said, it's like playing the lottery... possible, but very unlikely.

I guess I could have called the thread "Why You Should Almost Probably Never Hire a Cheap Copywriter Unless You Really Know What You're Doing and Can Afford to Lose the Money"... but it doesn't really have the same ring to it, does it?

-Dan

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Daniel Scott 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Onslaught

Somehow I missed this post

If I would have seen this my response(s) would have been different.

Hypocrisy I despise, I'll leave it at that

Paul,

I respect you greatly... from what I've seen you're a damn good writer and marketer... but I think you're being a little unfair here.

I pretty much covered this all in my above post (reply to WordPro), so hopefully that clarifies things... if not, feel free to post a response in this thread, and we will discuss it further.

My post was simply meant to illustrate the economic realities of copywriting. And, if you recall, I made less than minimum wage on those first letters... I made sure my clients got a good letter.

Most cheap copywriters will not have that kind of integrity. Guys like Kevin will... but they're the exception, not the rule.

Make sense?

-Dan
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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by TimCastleman

Dan:

I get what you are saying but remember the internet has a memory:

http://www.warriorforum.com/warrior-...24-closed.html

Where you offered your own cheap sales letters when you got started. I know you're far beyond that now but remember when in glass house stones should not be played with.

Hilarious! So Daniel advises you should NEVER hire a cheap copywriter eh?

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Rezbi 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Raydal

I totally agree with you here Paul. If a copywriter can even
'smell' that the product is poor (as well as the prospect) it
is unethical to take his money.

Absolutely.

I had a guy ask me to write copy for him, so I asked him to send over his stuff.

Now this guys lives in another country so you can imagine he wasn't kidding about.

However, after I received his material and went through it, I just gave up on it. Basically I thought it was so poor I'd have to lie to make it sound good.

And there's no way I'm doing that (and I'm not cheap).
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vinild 14 years ago

Who are the best copy writers in the industry today?
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Raydal

15 years ago

Interestingly, just yesterday I was listening to an interview by
Gary Halbert and he made the same points about 'cheap' copy.

Genius Network Interview Series

It's not everyone who is trying to make money online is
business minded. Businesses think about ROI and not
just the upfront cost.

It is also nerve racking for a new IM to shell out a couple
thousand for a copywriter if they have never been in a
business before. So many people who go into offline
marketing are surprised by how much these businesses
pay for, say, a yellow page ad that may not bring them
any business.

As Gary was explaining, cheap copy cost while expensive
copy pays. Good copywriting is really free!

Halbert said in that interview that back in the 80's he charged
a guy $15K to write a letter (which was huge back then) and
he made $40 Million from the letter. Now that letter was FREE!

When a marketer places enough confidence in me to pay my fees
I don't take this lightly. I know, most of the times, he is taking
a big risk. But copywriting does take a lot of mental energy
and to write competently and cheaply is committing financial
suicide.

I would dare say that it is IMPOSSIBLE to sustain a copywriting
business writing on the cheap because you will quickly reach
the point where all the joy for writing evaporates with your
bank account.

An army still marches on its stomach.

-Ray Edwards

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jjssj

15 years ago

Paying more for content doesnt always offer better quality, these is some game plan in markters brains more content more traffic this is not the way anymore, better quality gets ahead of all the nosense, and this is what stands out and gets noticed.

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MontelloMarketing

15 years ago

jjssj,

You're confused. No one is talking about content here. We're talking about sales copy.

Originally Posted by jjssj

Paying more for content doesnt always offer better quality, these is some game plan in markters brains more content more traffic this is not the way anymore, better quality gets ahead of all the nosense, and this is what stands out and gets noticed.

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Kevin Lam

15 years ago

I had to stop in and say thanks to both Daniel and Paul. Both of you are great friends by-the-way.

I had to thank both of you, because there truly is 2 sides to this story. On one hand, we have to keep in mind that you get what you pay for. On the other hand, we need to remember that we all have to start some where - even if that means $100 sales letters.

I had my first WSO last week on copywriting. It was offered at $197 and I grabbed up 5 clients. I closed it after that but then still ended up with 2 more clients at regular price. While it took 5 people to be $15 short of $1,000, the other 2 clients at regular price got me closer to 5 figures.

The first sales letter I ever wrote was when I was 18/19 years old and it brought in nearly $200,000. Back then, I didn't even know what "copywriting" was. I just read around, picked up concepts and strategies, and I applied them as best I could in my own way.

Only recently did I actually started writing sales letter for other people and have been achieving great conversions and increasing sales for my clients. I don't have a whole lot of clients, but the ones I do have all have benefited from my writing.

But because my testimonial and portfolio on copywriting is so small, I held that WSO to get things going. Does that make me a cheap writer?

Yeah, it does.

But does that mean my copywriting is cheap? No way! I give them my all as if it were my own. I provide strategies and concepts the client might not have thought of. So I provide my consulting time as if they were paying full price.

I got an email this morning from a *regular* client:

HI KEVIN
one thing i like about you is you are straight to the point and sincere
you also remind me of Donald trump attitude wise i love it , its what WORKS!!!

My wife and I had a great laugh. Not that it's funny, I was just surprised. All I did was gave him a strategy on how to boost his income by about $5,000+/month.

When I offered my WSO at $197 a sales letter, it made me feel dirty and worthless, but I KNOW that by offering myself so low I can prove myself to the new clients, get new testimonials, build long-term business relationship (to get paid more in the future) and eventually gain more business through their testimonials.

Is it worth it? Of course. I know that my future clients will be happy to be paying 4-5 figures for my copywriting. And so, we all have to start somewhere. Even the existing WSO clients are offering more work to me at regular price.

So do keep in mind that cheap isn't always crap, but be mindful of the crap that's out there.

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MaskedMarketer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by scheda

However, the thing people need to realize is, if they can afford it, their business will be MUCH better off by hiring me.

I agree scheda

.

Originally Posted by Kevin Lam

I had my first WSO last week on copywriting. It was offered at $197 and I grabbed up 5 clients.

I missed out on that great offer.

I don't even need copy right now and I wanted in!

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Kevin Lam

15 years ago

Originally Posted by MaskedMarketer

I missed out on that great offer.

I don't even need copy right now and I wanted in!

Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't want to promote it in my signature because I didn't want more than 5. At first, I was going to accept 10, but realized 5 would be enough. I don't think I'll have another WSO like that ever again though.

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ndcole78

15 years ago

There are all sides to this issue to consider. I know it probably better than anyone....I'm the originator of the $197.00 sales letter years ago, though I don't actively advertise it anymore.

It really all depends on how you look at it---Most of the writers who say they charge $4,000---$10,000 a letter, usually only write 5-6 letters out of the year at best since they take 2-3 months to write the letter, so that's around $60,000 and maybe 5-6 new clients for the entire year. Less work. However, some charging less for copy will generate $60,000 easy writing copy and will have well over 100 new clients a year that they can market to, selling IM products, memberships, etc., which will carry you well into the 6-figure range--easy. You work a hell of lot harder for your money, but at the end of the month, you'll probably make more than the writer to took a $4,000 job because that's usually the only job the writer got the entire month.

I can tell that by this posts that have been started that some writers who say they charge thousands for the letter are being undercut by the cheap guys and is fueling a lot of these threads.

It really all depends on what YOU are comfortable with. Now the problem with charging for cheap copy is that a lot of your client base will be marketers who are always looking to get something for something for nothing.

For example, the other day, a client of mine who is real active on this forum emailed me asking if I would write a high-converting squeeze page for him and said he's willing to pay $20.00....and he said it like $20.00 was suppose to entice me to want to sit down, and come up with a brilliant concept to make HIS business money. I felt insulted by his email and my response probably ended our working relationship, but for sending that kind of email, I wouldn't want to work with him anymore anyway--but that's the kind of stuff you get yourself into by charging cheap copy.

But on the other hand, the hundreds of other clients that bought cheap copy from me in the past are always emailing me for more copy, sending more people my way and I'm always busy----I'm about 5 months out right now unless you order my rush delivery service, which does cost a lot more.

All I'm saying is that Vin, Mike, Ray, and others all make good points because there is 2 sides to consider. For me, I just plain like to write and I have a lot of other things bringing in money, so my prices are not based on using copywriting as my entire income.

It is very, very, very hard to find a cheap copywriter who actually knows what he or she is doing. And it's also hard to find clients who are looking for bargains who can actually explain exactly what they're looking for.

Now I, as well as most good copywriters have clients fill out questionnaires before starting a project. I had a client about a month ago barely fill the thing out and expected me to know what he wanted like I was a mind reader or something, so I just took what he sent over and ran with it, but then he came back and said he wanted something else, though he could not explain it to me and wanted his money back, which of course I did not agree to do.

Now with that said, just a warning to copywriters looking to get into the cheap copywriting market, because there is definitely a market for it with people cutting back on everything now, just be aware as to things like this because trust me, it will happen.

If you can afford to invest more in copy, then do so, but if you can find a good copywriter for cheap and your funds are limited, then hire that guy.

You would be surprised as to how many of the "gurus" spend money with diamond in the rock copywriters like me. But if that cheap copywriters isn't any good, you can best to believe that that same guru will spend $10,000+ for the letter because they understand that copy is an investment and that they'll place themselves in perfect position to profit more with high-quality copy.

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MontelloMarketing

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ndcole78

It really all depends on how you look at it---Most of the writers who say they charge $4,000---$10,000 a letter, usually only write 5-6 letters out of the year at best since they take 2-3 months to write the letter, so that's around $60,000 and maybe 5-6 new clients for the entire year.

I never heard of anyone making less than 25K per letter that limit their work to 5-6 per year. That's actually ludicrous. My students who are in that range write a minimum of 10 per year. And most are closer to 15.

Sure... good copywriters take longer. But we're talking about 3 weeks... not 3 months.

I can tell that by this posts that have been started that some writers who say they charge thousands for the letter are being undercut by the cheap guys and is fueling a lot of these threads.

Also not true, nick. Many of these posts are from guys who have no problem getting work at their normal rates.

I understand that it's easy to think "oh, the complainers are just trying to protect their market..." but in this case I think very little of it is that at all. Guys like David are booked months in advance. Even if you could squeeze $3K... or $4K out of a budget minded marketer they couldn't afford david...

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ndcole78 15 years ago

Point well stated Vin. I respect Vin and a select few others who really know what they're talking about for copywriting as well as understanding the entire marketing process.

The forum is here to help other copywriters as well as marketers if they need it. Both now have the facts and real life examples to look at.

If a copywriter wants to charge less, then let him shoot himself in the foot as some writers are "warning" them about. If the copywriter wants to charge thousands for a letter and is good enough to do so and will use copy as his or her primary source of income, then he should, plain and simple.

It's plenty of work to go around, so the high-dollar writers should not be complaining about the cheap guys and the cheap guys should not be envious of the high-dollar guys.

Like Dan Kennedy said...if you're a copywriter and want more money per letter, then just ask for it.

Stop all the bickering (both sides) and just do what you do!
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CDarklock

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ndcole78

You would be surprised as to how many of the "gurus" spend money with diamond in the rock copywriters like me. But if that cheap copywriters isn't any good, you can best to believe that that same guru will spend $10,000+ for the letter

I do the same thing. I'll hire someone inexpensive for a job with low urgency, knowing that if they screw it up I have plenty of time to hire someone who will do the job right. If they get it right, I have a lot of room to up my offer and keep them working for me.

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Kevin Lam

15 years ago

Originally Posted by ndcole78

I'm the originator of the $197.00 sales letter years ago, though I don't actively advertise it anymore.

It's not like I saw that there was a template for a $197 sales letter, lol. It's just a number I decided to go with.

I'll hold back on any other comments. Everything is just repetitive here.

Although, I did spot this:

Originally Posted by ndcole78

For example, the other day, a client of mine who is real active on this forum emailed me asking if I would write a high-converting squeeze page for him and said he's willing to pay $20.00....and he said it like $20.00 was suppose to entice me to want to sit down, and come up with a brilliant concept to make HIS business money. I felt insulted by his email and my response probably ended our working relationship, but for sending that kind of email, I wouldn't want to work with him anymore anyway--but that's the kind of stuff you get yourself into by charging cheap copy.

I understand you might be a well respected copywriter some where, but that's just not necessary. The guy certainly doesn't understand the value of your work due to a lack of experience. For you to thrash at him because you felt insulted is taking it a bit too far.

It's like expecting a child to know not to cross the road without looking when no one has taught him to. If you've done your part as a copywriter, the person probably would have came to his senses and tried to come up with the money to pay you more.

Yes, I did the WSO for only $197 and when one of the clients asked me to also write an email series and an OTO, I said no and explained why. He said okay and would be willing to pay more. Done deal. He's also willing to pay regular rates for future projects. How hard was that?

Another client asked me to tackle a different project. Just for that he pays extra. Done deal. I don't know why we can't cut people a little slack. A little kindness here and there goes a long way. So don't always equate cheap copywriting to poor results or little profit.

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Sean Kelly 15 years ago

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Astounding Writing Coach 15 years ago

I think the thing that a lot of businesses overlook when it comes to copywriting is that copywriting is an investment rather than an expense. We as copywriters know paying for years of training and developing our writing skills was a good investment. Now if we can just convince those wanting the benefits of our investment to see copywriting that way....

Susan
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Why do personal development, self-help, natural wellness and hypnosis small business owners regularly hire me for my engaging, intuitive, creative content writing skills? Because that's what I passionately do best.
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thegoddessofeleven

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

No one ever complains that their doctor charges too much.

LOL. I'm afraid I must disagree with you on this point.... I've heard LOTS of people complain about doctors charging too much. In fact, next to arthritis pains, it's probably the most common complaint uttered by octogenarians in the United States...

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ndcole78 15 years ago

Kevin, the difference between the client that I spoke about who is very active on this forum and successful as a marketer, is that he knows better. In your case, the guy didn't know better and once you informed him, he was fine with it--that happens all the time. That was just one of those days where stuff like that just made me angry, especially from someone who knew better.

---I had a bad day in the stock market that day, so that was a little on my mind if you wanted to know what started my day off bad that day....But then being approached by a marketer who knows better and saying he's willing to pay an entire $20 for a high-converting landing page is crazy on any day.

By the way....Luckily, I've been having a string of great profits in the market.
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Scott Murdaugh

15 years ago

I've got my .02 to throw in here....

If you dig deep you can find me offering sales copy probably 18 months ago for around $200 a sales letter.

Around 4-5 months ago I ran a WSO for $300 a sales letter.

As I started learning more and getting some experience under my belt, I started to realize that if I couldn't start charging more I was wasting my time. I could make a lot more money just writing my own copy.

My rates literally doubled every month... And I slowly realized the beauty of this business. The $300 letters paid off, because of the success I had with those I have a reputation now.

And when people that hired me in the past for >$1k contact me, I simply tell them that I charge more now... With VERY few exceptions no one blinks an eye. I usually get replies like "About time you came to your senses" or "I kind of expected that".

I stay booked up now at the rates I want to charge, and I don't even look for clients... I seriously don't. And if you look at my website it's not heavily promoted, I'm actually not even happy with the copy on it, but I don't mess with it because I honestly don't have time.

The majority of people I work with now have a few things in common... One is that they took a chance with me when I was relatively unproven in the market. Not all of them, but I'd say 1/2 or so either hired me cheap or where referred to me by someone who hired me cheap.

The second is they already have real businesses that bring in REAL money. And that's critical... You don't want to work with anyone who can't afford you, and for most of us, that's going to be 99% of the people passing through forums like this.

Most people don't have a "few extra grand" sitting around for a sales letter. That's a fact. And I know that I don't want the pressure of someone "staking everything" on my copy...

Yeah, I'm confident in my abilities but if I know in the back of my mind that a family is going to go hungry if my letter isn't a smashing success... I'm not going to do it. I don't need the stress and the client doesn't need the risk.

So instead of trying to "educate" the 99% of people who really aren't in your league anyway... Who can't really afford your upfront fees, target the people who can. It's simple.

And the best part, that "top 1%" who DO value good copy and are willing to pay full asking price over and over again? It only takes a few of them to build a real business... And there are more than enough of these types of clients for all of us anyway.

Point being, writing on the cheap worked out for me... I can't speak for anyone else. But it got my "foot in the door" with some people, it allowed me to prove myself, and it worked out for me.

Looking back, I'm glad I did it.

Here's the kicker though... If you're hiring a rookie writer for a few hundred bucks, consider it a gamble, you may hit a home run.

If you're hiring a writer who's been charging a few hundred bucks a letter for an extended period of time, take a step back and ask yourself "why"?

Because if you're a copywriter, and you have clients who can afford what you want to make, and you've already demonstrated that you're more than worth it, it's just common sense to raise your rates.

You're doing yourself a disservice if you don't. You provide one of the most valuable services on this planet, and you deserve to compensated for it.

Personally, I don't care if a copywriter wants to charge $20 a sales letter... Go for it. And I don't care if people hire that writer all day long. That's not my client base, I'm not marketing to them, so they can hire whoever they want to.

I wouldn't care if one of my clients hired one to "test them out" because I'm confident they'll be back... And even if I lose a client there are a million more out there.

For the copywriters, you have to be good at what you do... In the last year I've digested everything I can get my hands on, from books to seminars and everything else. I'm constantly learning.

No one is ever going to pay you decent money if you don't provide consistent results.

And I'm still on the "cheap" side, but I'm content with that for now, because I make a lot more money than most "writers" make, and things are only looking up from here.

Something else to consider, build a relationship with people. A guy contacted me yesterday, and I spent 2 hours talking to him about his product.

I told him exactly what buttons we needed to press to sell it, I gave him ideas on where to promote it, who to approach for JV's... In short I helped him to see "the big picture" and what everything would look like when it's all said and done.

I even told him that I'd refuse to work with him unless he was going to market this full throttle, because if he's investing this much into me upfront I want to be able to sleep at night, and the only way I can do that is if he's making his money back.

The last thing we talked about was price, and it was the shortest part of the conversation.

Why? Because when you've talked about every other factor involved, from how the product will be positioned to where the traffic comes from, price becomes irrelevant.

I took a product, and basically "gave away" almost every idea I had for marketing and promoting it.

This person could take my ideas and go to a cheaper writer. But he won't because after talking with me he realized I'm someone who knows what the hell they're doing and someone he wants on his side.

And that's the real secret, at least in my limited experience. Be someone who knows what the hell you're doing, and the money will follow.

If you consistently make money for other people, it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to not be making a ton of money yourself, unless you just don't know what you're doing.

If you know what you're doing, and in this business that comes down to making money... You don't have to worry about competing with $197 copywriters, you don't have to haggle with clients on your fees, and you don't have to worry about looking for clients, because eventually they start coming to you.

So instead of trying to "educate" those who can't afford you anyway, focus on proving how valuable you are to people who can afford you.

Because providing value to people who CAN afford you is the surefire way to getting repeat business, getting referrals, getting paid what you want and having clients banging on your door begging you to work with them.

Right now, my biggest worry isn't finding new clients... It's finding bigger clients, or finding time for my own projects, or figuring out how to get to the "next level" as far as my fees go and staying just as booked as I am now.

And those aren't bad problems to have.

That's my take.

-Scott

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Kevin Lam

15 years ago

LOL, okay, Nicholas. I see what you mean now. In that case, yeah, that's a heck of an insult. Well, glad to know you're doing well in the stock market though. And it's funny, I'm writing for a day trading client. Hope to see this guy make it big.

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Wow.

Lots of discussion here. If I may, I'd just like to clarify my position...

First of all, I've made no secret of the fact I used to write for dirt cheap... in fact I'm fairly certain I mentioned it on this forum about 12 hours ago! For the sake of convenience (and because I don't know how to link to specific posts), I've included it here:

There are definitely great copywriters who start out low. Mike Humphreys wrote his first letter for $300 or so, I think, as did Bruce Wedding (I remember reading this somewhere... correct me if I'm wrong guys!).

Vin wrote his first paid letter for $500.

But they're the exception. For every one of them, there's about a thousand hack writers who charge next to nothing and put out crappy work... again, and again, and again...

Think of it like the lottery. Sure, if you buy a ticket, you might win that ten million bucks... but you have a snowball's chance in hell.

Let me tell you something... writing a good letter takes a lot of time. I have never met a good copywriter who can say otherwise. Writing a letter that LOOKS, to the untrained eye (which is why you get a copywriter in the first place, usually) that it will work is easy.

Actually writing one that DOES convert is far, far harder.

To write a good letter, you have to study the market til you know them inside out. Analyze the competition. Intimately aquaint yourself with the client's product. Derive a USP. Understand WHAT you're going to say in the letter...

So, right there, that's probably at least 20 hours worth of work before you start writing.

If you charge $100/letter, that's $5/hr... not exactly worth it when you can make more at Maccas.

Now, understand that I have been a $100 writer... so I know what I'm talking about. When I started out, I did 4 letters for $97/piece... and you know what? Those letters took me about 20 hours each. They were good... not amazing, but good, and from what I hear, the clients who actually used them made some okay money out of them.

So the next two letters I wrote were at $500... and they were better... and took 25 hours each. So now I'm making an okay wage... but still not a great one... considering the insane amount of work that I put into them (and the insane amount of money they have the capacity to generate).

Then I started working with Vin... and my letters are now taking even longer to write... but they're getting pretty good. And I now charge about $3 000 a letter... and that's increasing every letter.

So it's taken me about 10 letters, I think, to go from $100/letter to $3 000/letter... and people who are smarter than I am don't start at $100.

Can you see now why it is next to impossible to get a good writer for $100?

So I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. I used to write for dirt cheap, I admit it, and I'm not ashamed of it. It worked for me at the time.

But, as I said... on those letters I was making a lot less than minimum wage.

Admittedly, I had absolutely NO portfolio or experience in writing letters for other people... it was a wonderful learning experience, blah blah blah... but I never expected to make money out of it... at least not a livable wage.

Scott is another good example. He used to write for cheap... don't think he does anymore. I've seen some of his recent copy and WOW... it is damn good.

Just to be clear... I'm not trying to blast anyone for hiring a cheap copywriter. I've done it a few times... and that's why I decided to start writing my own copy... at the time I just couldn't afford a decent writer. Ironically, now I have the skills to write copy, I actually have my own products that are bringing in income. It's a catch 22 situation, and a lot of people are in it... so I get it, I really do.

I'm not trying to be the guy who covers up where he's come from... not at all. And I'm certainly not pissed that there are cheap copywriters out there.

I'm a musician by trade... when I did it for a living (as opposed to now, where I just take a gig if I think it will be fun), you would constantly be undercut by college or high school kids or "weekenders" who didn't know how to make sure they got a decent price.

The beauty of a free economy is that there are different people willing to work at different price levels... and frankly someone who writes for $100 isn't taking away work from me... just like I'm not taking work away from someone like Vin or Ray, who charge a lot more.

All I am saying is that you are very, very unlikely to get a good copywriter for a few hundred bucks, based on the simple economic realities (ie. time that must be invested) that I have laid out above.

I completely agree with a lot of the advice in this thread, from most of you.

To be clear, I'm not having a go at guys like Kevin... who will write a killer letter for $200, I'm sure (I've seen some of his work, and what I saw was good) but he's not going to write many for that price.

My point is that copywriters specialize in creating words that make money. And when they can do that, demand for their services go up... so their prices go up.

It's a simple economic reality... and that's why you will rarely find a good copywriter who writes for cheap.

Just so we're clear... what I'm getting is that you can't get a Rolls for the price of a Honda. Are there exceptions to that rule? Sure... but they're the needle in a haystack.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not trying to protect my business, I'm not trying to diss other copywriters, and I'm not saying that the people who hire them are stupid... I'm simply saying that you need to have realistic expectations.

-Dan

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

15 years ago

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

.

By all accounts, you've made the transition from being a cheaper than chips copywriter yourself, indeed, making a WSO offer only two or so months ago offering your services for a couple hundred bucks and then, ramming it down other copywriters throats how superior your view is now on the subject,

Wow. I got to say it again. Wow.

Thanks to Mark and Metronicity (didn't hear back so I had to go ahead with that thing. Report will be available over the weekend) and to raydal (for his usual balance)

Jeepers - For a new guy this thread is a revelation.

I love words and using them but no amount of words can cover for the contrast of headline and reality

"You should NEVER Hire a cheap copywriter"

And now we all know people who were cheap writers just 3+ months ago are the ones writing it. I could and would prefer to use another word (not a curse word either) but I'll exercise my puny writing skils and use another one

Chutzpah.

You probably have no idea how much this thread can open the eyes as to the hot air that blows in this section of the forum.

So, i'll take my little unpolished presently 6% closing (yeah it will most likely sink a bit more) copywriting skills and ignore all but a few and offer what prices I want and entertain contests for newbies - that was shot down like a bat out of hell by some of the same group - as much as I want.

Because if you can go from no one should hire you for even $99 to everyone should save up at least 3-5,000 dollars to hire you in 3-4 months why wouldn't I get as much cheap work as I can so I can hone my skills?

Maybe I can get to that level in two months and write a post that has even more chutzpah.

The good news is that apparently if you have a little writing skills copywriting doesn't take very long to improve dramatically in. The sun will come out tomorrow.

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MikeHumphreys

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Mike Anthony

I love words and using them but no amount of words can cover for the contrast of headline and reality

"You should NEVER Hire a cheap copywriter"

And now we all know people who were cheap writers just 3+ months ago are the ones writing it. I could and would prefer to use another word (not a curse word either) but I'll exercise my puny writing skils and use another one

Chutzpah.

Okay, let me put this in a more accurate context.

Daniel started the thread in 7/2009. As of today, that's more than 4 months ago. Since then he's been doing mentoring with Vin Montello who I consider one of the top copywriting teachers (Ray L. Edwards is my other recommended "how to write great copy" teacher).

If someone who knows nothing about copywriting can hit the books and learn how to write a basic sales letter in 30 days or less... then how much more skilled could a new(er) copywriter become working with a top pro for 4 (or more) months to hone their skills.

The simple answer is * a lot * more skilled.

Right now, any copywriter reading this thread could quote $100K plus royalties to write a salesletter from scratch.

I'm being completely serious when I say it.

That's marketing & copywriting guru Dan Kennedy's fee to write a sales letter for clients.

The ability to get paid that type of fee will come down to the strength of your portfolio, client testimonials, and your own marketing and sellling skills.

Now, very few clients will pay that much for their copy and few copywriters have the confidence and chops to *get* $100K for their copy, but hopefully you see my point.

Daniel has quickly progressed to the point where he has clients paying him $5K for his professional help. Congrats Daniel. Having talked with him by PM more than once, I will say I'm not surprised because he's a highly motivated person.

He's not the first person who started charging low fees as a copywriter... started building a portfolio and raised their fees significantly from there.

In fact, almost every successful copywriter I've ever talked to started with sub $1000 fee for a sales letter. I'm not going to name drop on who I know started out writing "cheap copy" out of respect to those individuals. If any of them want to chime and share their story of going from new copywriter to seasoned pro, then I'm happy to let them.

My first copywriting client was the guy who introduced me to my wife. He spent 6 months asking me to do it until he finally guilted me into writing for him. He paid me $100 to write a new home page for his business website.

In 2006, I ran my first ever copywriting WSO. It was for $200 rewrites. It sold out within 72 hours. Within a few months, I realized that doing high volume of low-cost copywriting jobs was too hard on me physically and I needed to switch to the less projects per month and charge more too.

Every month, I've raised my rates until I was charging $4-6K for an online sales letter from scratch. I raised my rates slower than most because it took me a long time until I had my first big home run for a copywriting client.

Fast forward to the present moment. Right now, I'm 80% booked with client contracted work for the next year.

I'm not saying that to brag but to demonstrate that if you are willing to work hard on building your copy chops and market yourself aggressively, then the sky is the limit on your earning ability as a copywriter.

One last point about "cheap copywriting". I don't mind people offering this service provided they are doing quality work for their clients and not ripping anyone off. They are servicing a portion of the marketplace that can not afford or will not pay what veteran copywriters choose to charge.

My advice to copywriters who are offering "cheap copywriting" is to agressively work on improving their chops so that they can confidently charge more for their services.

Hope that helps,

Mike

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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Originally Posted by MikeHumphreys

Okay, let me put this in a more accurate context.

Daniel started the thread in 7/2009. As of today, that's more than 4 months ago. Since then he's been doing mentoring with Vin Montello who I consider one of the top copywriting teachers (Ray L. Edwards is my other recommended "how to write great copy" teacher).

If someone who knows nothing about copywriting can hit the books and learn how to write a basic sales letter in 30 days or less... then how much more skilled could a new(er) copywriter become working with a top pro for 4 (or more) months to hone their skills.

Mike you so far are one of the few people here I still respect but all of that has never been the point. For that matter if you had previous sales experience you can pick up things I would think even faster. Where Daniel is, what he charges now is besides the point. The point is there is no reason to spit on the stairs you just walked up.

Was he chosen to be mentored because he had nothing to offer and no valuable talent to offer anyone even at $99? I won't believe it.

You see a bad job that stunk up the joint from a cheap copywriter fine but don't use it to cast a cloud of suspicion over everyone else out there that doesn't charge near what you do. Thats self serving no matter how you dice it. Judge the work by the work.

Daniels post is still a whole lot of hot air no matter how anyone massages it. respectfully all the stuff about earning and whose mentoring and whose talked to who really isn't my point. The premise of the OP is. All the rest outside of that I can neither confirm or deny and a third party can't and won't do it for me either.

My advice to copywriters who are offering "cheap copywriting" is to agressively work on improving their chops so that they can confidently charge more for their services.

Hope that helps,

Mike

excellent Mike. Bavo and Great advice. If thats what was in the OP no one would have any problems with it. If I seem to be too to the point is because this is the second time (and a number of other times I have seen but not been involved) in about a month I've encountered this attitude but I don't mind entirely because this time it was VERY illuminating.

Anyways I got to go work on my lousy cheap 6% converting copy and see if it holds there while improving my product and learning more about copywriting.

Toodles -Soap box time over.

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Mark,

The fact I've been writing for others for two months doesn't mean I've been writing for two months.

I believe that from day 1 I should offering a damn good service... and I worked hard to get the chops BEFORE I started offering my services. I was the same with music... and to be honest, it's probably not a great way to be, but it's the way I am and I've made peace with that.

The simple fact of the matter is that most cheap copywriters aren't good at what they do.

You seem to think I'm referring to you... I'm not. I've only seen one of your letters and, as I said, it was one of the best "low priced" letters I've seen.

I'm not sure why you think I'm slurring your writing ability... I gave you some tips in another thread, true, but I assumed you knew they were simply a few bits and pieces that might help your next letter get better. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm always asking people to give me pointers... so I apologize if I have offended you; it wasn't intentional.

What I AM saying is that the economic reality of the situation is that a cheap copywriter simply cannot do as good a job as a more expensive copywriter.

The simple fact is you NEED to do that research and market analysis... or else you have a piece of copy that just won't convert. I know this because years ago I used to do it all the time... as I said, I'm sharing my experience here.

A lot of people seem to misunderstand my position here, and it's probably my fault. There's a reason I am saying this... because I used to make these mistakes all the time!

I now realize WHY copywriters charge what they do, WHY you can't write a good letter in a few hours (unless you already know the market inside-out), and why cheap copy almost always bites you on the ass... BECAUSE I'VE BEEN THERE!

I have made those mistakes. I've tried to write copy for my own stuff without understanding the markets. I've paid $300 for copy and then been pissed off when it didn't convert.

This isn't about me dissing cheap copywriters, Mark... everyone starts somewhere... including me.

If you can write a good letter in 3 hours, or whatever, then go for it man... Hell, if you can write a letter that converts for $200 or whatever I will personally keep you tied up as many letters as you can write in the next 12 months or whatever.

You'll be far more skilled than pretty much any copywriter I know.

I expect that as you get more experience, you'll raise your rates... because you'll realize that writing non-stop will burn you out, and more importantly, you won't be able to take the time to write a killer letter purely for financial reasons.

Here's the thing, Mark... if you wanna believe that I'm an idiot and don't know what I'm talking about, that's cool. If you think I'm writing this to "look down my nose" at others, then you don't know me very well (understandably, since this is an internet forum).

You can think I'm sneering at others from atop my golden throne or whatever... But honestly, I charge sweet FA for a letter... so it doesn't make sense for me to look down on others for charging little.

All I am trying to get at is that charging (or paying) peanuts for a sales letter doesn't work out for anyone 99% of the time.

If you want to continue to hate me, that's fine. That's your prerogative, and it doesn't really affect me one way or the other... I'm not exactly gonna lose sleep over it.

But, for the record... I'm not that guy. I'm just trying to share what I've learned with this forum... because I'm really happy at the moment and I have this forum, and the people in it, to thank for it.

-Dan

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting 15 years ago

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- MaskedMarketer 15 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Daniel Scott
  
  Most people don't understand how hard it is to write a letter.
  
  Your probably right. I was almost going to do my own copy, but I can't bring myself to do it. Its not that I can't, its just that writing is not my thing and I don't enjoy it. I may give it a go again, but its not something I would do regularly.
  
  I've sold high ticket items over the phone, done face to face sales, and have studied great copywriters and some of there courses. Selling isn't the hard part. I love selling. Its the actual writing process that I find tedious and time wasting.
  
  I find it hard to write a lot of quality articles, copy, or any writing at all. Maybe its my ADD. I'll probably need an in-house writer at some point in the near the future and I have no problem training a great, reliable, writer, how to sell.
  
  Thats why top copy guys deserve what they get paid. Sh*t, I can't even afford to hire my cousin and she's family, lol. She does offline copy mostly for book publishers.
  
  And in the real world, most people can't even afford a low-mid level copywriter charging 1k or more. Atleast from what I've seen here at the WarriorForum. I think its good to have these "more affordable" writers, but the buyer must be extra, extra, extra, careful doing this.
  
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J. Barry Mandel

15 years ago

Case in point:

A couple of weeks ago someone a copywriter wanted me to review his salesletter - he said his client was really happy with it, so I was eagerly looking forward to reviewing it.

After going through it I see that the product is positioned completely wrong...the mark of an inexperienced copywriter, and hence conversions would've been lousy because people were seriously misled the way it was written.

So what it came down to was 2 things:

1) The copywriter had a lot of improvement that needs to be made
2) His "happy" client had no idea what he was reading

That hungry copywriter was salivating, holding onto my every sentence in my IM chat. After I told him what was wrong with it kept typing "What else?"

My answer was "nothing else" and I offered to review it for him for a fee, which he could not afford since he was paid only $200 to write the copy in the first place.

Every copywriter has to start somewhere, but here was someone who paid what he might of thought was good money someone who positioned himself as a "real deal professional" copywriter and in turn would've got badly burned with poor conversions once his launch took place

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Kevin Lam

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Justin Mandel

Case in point:

A couple of weeks ago someone a copywriter wanted me to review his salesletter - he said his client was really happy with it, so I was eagerly looking forward to reviewing it.

After going through it I see that the product is positioned completely wrong...the mark of an inexperienced copywriter, and hence conversions would've been lousy because people were seriously misled the way it was written...(

That sounds oddly familiar. I pretty much came about the same situation not too long ago. Someone asked for a critique on the sales letter he wrote for his clients and the positioning was wrong. The headlines and sub-titles were really poor. Odd.

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Raydal

15 years ago

Phew .. a lot of fire in this thread!

Is there a difference between a cheap copywriter and a copywriter
with low fees?

Your fees should be determined by:

1. Your experience - the longer you have been working as a copywriter
the better you should get and the more you should charge. (Exception: some
talented writers can start ahead of the pack)

2. The market. What is the competition charging and what the market
can bear.

3. How broke you are. If you really need the work to pay the bills then
don't let anyone convince you otherwise. There's no use "faking it till
you make it here". Although it's not a great position to be in, run that
WSO and tell them you are looking for more testimonials for your site.

There really are no cheap copywriters. Just copywriters who charge
cheaply, and often for very good reasons.

-Ray Edwards

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Johnny12345

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

I charge $3 000 for a letter right now.

Daniel,

Instead of yet another "low-priced copy is bad" rant, I think a more interesting post would have been an explanation of how you went from charging $97 to $3,000 in only a couple months.

Johnny

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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Johnny12345

Daniel,

Instead of yet another "low-priced copy is bad" rant, I think a more interesting post would have been an explanation of how you went from charging $97 to $3,000 in only a couple months.

Johnny

Johnny,

When I ran that WSO... I was shit-scared that my letters wouldn't convert.

I have a few products of my own that convert well (although I still have a long way to go before I learn to send a decent amount of traffic to my pages)... but writing for others is a little different. I had a lot of "what ifs" go through my head... what if my writing wouldn't convert... what if I screwed up... etc etc.

Anyway, that's why I offered the guarantee I did (money-back). I knew it was open to abuse... but I figured it would show people I was serious about doing a good job despite no prior experience.

So I did 4 letters at $97 each... and I think each of those letters took me roughly 20 - 30 hours to write.

Can you say "less than minimum wage"? LOL.

Anyway, after I finished those ones I did a WSO for $500. I got a few people to take me up on that... did those letters... and then realized that getting clients via the WSO forum probably wasn't a good marketing angle.

After that, I put up my own website... and that's essentially how I got work now (combination of PPC and forum advertising... you'd be amazed how many clients you get from a sig file at the Warrior Forum!).

In regards to raising my rates, one thing that seriously helped me was hanging out at the Copywriter's Board (copywritingboard.com - run by Bruce Wedding, who I believe is a Warrior here too). I used to think $2 000 was big money for a letter... then you go over there and see that hardly any of them charge below $5 000.

It's a bit of a wake-up call, LOL.

And, of course, Vin took me on as a student... and you have no idea how much Vin has not only helped me improve my copywriting, but given me tips on how to position myself so that I am worthy of those higher fees... like anything it's all about positioning, but it doesn't stop with writing copy for your website... it's about how you relate to your clients and build the value of your services in other ways.

Pretty boring, really... Not exactly an exciting story.

I think one of the big things is that I saw my letters WERE converting and WERE getting results... clients were overjoyed with them... that really helps your confidence. And when you are confident, it's easier to get another job... for more money.

Plus, I could write a good letter before I started charging for my services... my first letters converted (well, at least the first letters I charged others for... the first letters I wrote for myself were horrible). Like most copywriters, I've gotten better over time... and the better you get, and the better track record you have, the higher fees you can command.

Bottom line is I charge that because I'm worth it... and I know it and my clients know it. Sure, occasionally I get someone who kind of chokes at my rates... but you get that in most business endeavors at some point.

I should mention, too, that Tim Castleman was the guy who initially (indirectly) got me started writing copy for other people... and then pushed me to raise my rates!

Kevin Lam also taught me a hell of a lot about the "graphical" aspects of copy like layout, white space, johnson boxes etc... The first couple of letters I did for others that was a major point he mentioned that I then went back and fixed.

I considered sending this via PM but thought this would be a good place to put it since the discussion kind of arose RE: my "origins", and I thought it would be a nice plug for Tim and Kev... who are both great guys and were a big help to me when I started out doing this kind of thing.

-Dan

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Kevin Lam

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Kevin Lam also taught me a hell of a lot about the "graphical" aspects of copy like layout, white space, johnson boxes etc... The first couple of letters I did for others that was a major point he mentioned that I then went back and fixed.

I considered sending this via PM but thought this would be a good place to put it since the discussion kind of arose RE: my "origins", and I thought it would be a nice plug for Tim and Kev... who are both great guys and were a big help to me when I started out doing this kind of thing.

-Dan

Wonderful story, Dan. Thank you for sharing that with everyone and hopefully people can learn a lot from this. And yes, thank you for the plug, lol. Mind if I use that, lol.

Anyway, I love how you've grown as a person and as a copywriter. I'm glad Vin was able to take you under his wing and showed you the path. You've really done well for yourself and I'm proud to have you as a friend.

I really should get over to the copywriting forum some time... busy with my own things, but I will certainly make time for it soon.

Thanks

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Johnny12345

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Johnny,

I considered sending this via PM but thought this would be a good place to put it since the discussion kind of arose RE: my "origins", and I thought it would be a nice plug for Tim and Kev... who are both great guys and were a big help to me when I started out doing this kind of thing.

-Dan

Daniel,

Thank you for the added detail. It's good that you posted it here, instead of using a PM, because I think a lot of people will find your story interesting and inspirational.

Johnny

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dageniusmarketer

15 years ago

Alot of great and powerful minds in here talking about the often undervalued skill of copywriting. Ive learned alot about pricing strategy watching you guys go back and forth.

Im hoping in good time that I can eventually get on the level of some of you greats and charge that arm and leg that makes my clients many, many times over what i charged them, where they can buy that arm and leg back with no sweat.

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Zeus66

15 years ago

Would some of you pros be kind enough to recommend a good copywriting course or book?

Thanks,
John

Thanks
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MaskedMarketer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Would some of you pros be kind enough to recommend a good copywriting course or book?

Did you even bother to look at the third thread within this forum?

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html

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Zeus66

15 years ago

[DELETED]

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MaskedMarketer

15 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Take your attitude and shove it, pal. I wanted people taking part in THIS thread at THIS time to give suggestions, and several of them have. Next time, attack someone who isn't a member of this forum with a solid track record. See all the Thanks I've gotten here for helping others? About twice as many as you in about the same amount of time as you. Stick to attacking newbies, ok?

John

John,

I did give you a suggestion.

So i may have jumped down your throat just a little, but wasn't attacking you. I apologize if you think I was attacking you, but really your question gets asked here over,over, over, and over, and over again. Thats why the answer to your question is at the top of the forum.

But, I'd recommend you go with Sean D'souza course. One of the best courses out there with easily consumable content. Its gonna set you back around 2k, but sean stuff is excellent. He hardly gets mentioned on the forum here and his stuff is top notch.

You can check his website to read his copy or go to copy blogger and find his articles on there.

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MarkAndrews IMCopywriting

15 years ago

[DELETED]

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Zeus66

15 years ago

Mark,

Thanks so much for the suggestion! I have taken your advice. Very kind of you to take the time.

Regards,
John Schwartz

Originally Posted by WordPro

Hello John

Just sent you a private message with some very good information for you that doesn't cost the earth and is pretty comprehensive.

Hope it helps you out mate.

Best regards.

Mark

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Kevin Lam 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Zeus66

Would some of you pros be kind enough to recommend a good copywriting course or book?

Thanks,
John

John, not you too! Go slap yourself for even asking that.

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html
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Daniel Scott

15 years ago

John,

http://www.warriorforum.com/copywrit...ooks-ever.html

-Dan

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Lately, I've been seeing a disturbing trend... people are raving about the "cheap" copywriter they have who does "awesome work"... then crying a few days later because the letter turned out crap.

To these people, I have one question... are you really that surprised?

As copywriters, our job is to make sure that whatever product we're selling has a huge perceived value. It increases sales.

If your copywriter is writing letters for $100, it's for one reason... they are unable to sell themselves. And if they can't sell themselves... what makes you think they'll do any better with your product?

Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter. But I'd be surprised if they did more than, say, five letters until they hit the 4-figure mark (at least).

For those of you not "in the know"... here's why we copywriters charge so much...

For a start, it takes years of practise to hone your skills to a point where you can write good copy. And that's years of consistent, hard work... studying textbooks, analyzing other people's letters, writing your own letters... again and again and again... until you can consistently write letters that make sales.

Plus, a letter isn't a one-day job. Writing a letter involves researching a market, analyzing the competition, constructing a USP, learning the product/service inside out, and "laying out" the letter... and all this happens before you even start writing the damn thing.

Let me tell you, writing copy is intense. It's a slow, sometimes painful process that really exhausts you mentally... and it takes a LOT of time. Hell, even just writing a headline can take me hours. Sure, it'll end up being a killer headline... but it takes a long time.

Then after you write the letter you have to keep going back over it, fine-tuning and polishing it until you have cut out every unnecessary word... conveyed the perfect balance of reason and emotion... and basically crafted a finely-honed sales machine.

Plus, there are way more business owners than there are GOOD copywriters. There's a reason guys like Vin Montello or Ray Edwards charge five figures a letter... because they make their clients that many, many times over with their killer letters.

No one ever complains that their doctor charges too much. After all, he's been to medical school for years and you NEED a good doc... not just any old hack.

Copywriting is the same.

Time and time again I see people put up cheap copy that looks (to the untrained eye) as though it's well written... but upon close inspection the holes start to appear. The headline's too long and wordy. The copywriter hasn't hit the key emotions of the target market. There are crucial components of the sales copy left out... etc etc.

And it's no surprise, really. If you write a letter for $100, you can spend a maximum of five, maybe six hours on that letter... and that number includes the time you spend doing the quote and soliciting the client.

The average letter takes the average good copywriter about 40 hours. Some letters are more, some are less, and it always "depends", but 40 hours is a realistic figure.

If you worked for 40 hours for $100... you'd be looking at $2.50 an hour.

You would quit and go to Macca's where you'd earn three times that at minimum wage.

This is why hiring a "cheap" copywriter is a bad idea... because they don't have the skills to do your product justice... and even if they did, they don't have the time to spend on a letter because they have to do a crazy amount of letters just to pay the bills.

Is it possible you find a great writer for cheap, who is writing his first letter? Maybe, but it's about as probable as winning the lottery. If you like to gamble, go for it... but I don't screw around when it comes to my business.

And to those of you who think I'm doing this as some kind of "copywriting conspiracy" so we can keep our prices "high"... think again.

I charge $3 000 for a letter right now. Most people don't have that kind of cash, and 99.99% of the time people who hire $100 writers don't have $3 000 (and I'm on the low side for a good copywriter).

I'm simply making this post so a few less people get burned.

Most of you will read it and never listen to it... but I hope this helps at least a few people understand WHY good copy is so expensive... and why it kind of has to be.

Kind regards,

-Dan

Oh boy. You've opened a can of worms here. As you probably know, I've been promoting - shock horror - "cheap copy" in WSOs for several months here. You wanna know why? Mainly to get known on this Forum - I've only been actively participating here for six months. So I wanted to start out with a "bang" - to get noticed. What's the best way to get noticed with this crowd - offer a great service at a great price - which is, after all, the whole idea of the WSO section. There's a lot of people reading that section who are either just starting out or don't have thousands to throw at a "name" copywriter. So I offer (well I did - it's finished now) $97 rewrites of existing sales page copy. And at least double that for jobs that require more work.
Any copywriter worth his chops should be able to rewrite a salespage pretty quick. Sure - some of them take longer than others. But when I'm "in the zone" I can rewrite a salespage in about an hour. I'll take that $97 an hour any day. But you know what I'll also take - leads and offers to better and higher-paying gigs. And that's what those "loss leaders" do.
We'd all like to be paid Frank Kern-style $35,000 a gig but they don't come every day. And frankly I'd rather be a working hack than an "unemployed copywriter" sitting on my butt waiting for the phone to ring with five-figure gigs.
"Unable to sell themselves" - yeah right. I suppose that's why I'm up to my neck in work - not all of it "$97 rewrites" - I'll give you the drum. Think about "upsell on the back end". Your "cheap copy" can be a great foot in the door if you like. It'll get you in the house and talking to the Missus where you can show her how to get that stain out of the carpets or how quiet her house can be with double-glazing.
BTW Gary Halbert had a great little trick he used when he was selling encyclopedias door-to-door. He'd ring the door-bell and then turn around and walk away. Invariably the door would open and the householder would say "Yes....can I help you?". Halbert would say "Oh I'm sorry...I was looking for the Schwartz family and then I just noticed these beautiful roses you have here and...". That got him in the house. And talking. And solving their problems. And writing the order.
Forget about "selling yourself". Think about "solving someone's problem". The order comes from that. à bientôt, That Cheap-Ass Copy Guy.

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vinild

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Metronicity

Oh boy. You've opened a can of worms here. As you probably know, I've been promoting - shock horror - "cheap copy" in WSOs for several months here. You wanna know why? Mainly to get known on this Forum - I've only been actively participating here for six months. So I wanted to start out with a "bang" - to get noticed. What's the best way to get noticed with this crowd - offer a great service at a great price - which is, after all, the whole idea of the WSO section. There's a lot of people reading that section who are either just starting out or don't have thousands to throw at a "name" copywriter. So I offer (well I did - it's finished now) $97 rewrites of existing sales page copy. And at least double that for jobs that require more work.
Any copywriter worth his chops should be able to rewrite a salespage pretty quick. Sure - some of them take longer than others. But when I'm "in the zone" I can rewrite a salespage in about an hour. I'll take that $97 an hour any day. But you know what I'll also take - leads and offers to better and higher-paying gigs. And that's what those "loss leaders" do.
We'd all like to be paid Frank Kern-style $35,000 a gig but they don't come every day. And frankly I'd rather be a working hack than an "unemployed copywriter" sitting on my butt waiting for the phone to ring with five-figure gigs.
"Unable to sell themselves" - yeah right. I suppose that's why I'm up to my neck in work - not all of it "$97 rewrites" - I'll give you the drum. Think about "upsell on the back end". Your "cheap copy" can be a great foot in the door if you like. It'll get you in the house and talking to the Missus where you can show her how to get that stain out of the carpets or how quiet her house can be with double-glazing.
BTW Gary Halbert had a great little trick he used when he was selling encyclopedias door-to-door. He'd ring the door-bell and then turn around and walk away. Invariably the door would open and the householder would say "Yes....can I help you?". Halbert would say "Oh I'm sorry...I was looking for the Schwartz family and then I just noticed these beautiful roses you have here and...". That got him in the house. And talking. And solving their problems. And writing the order.
Forget about "selling yourself". Think about "solving someone's problem". The order comes from that. à bientôt, That Cheap-Ass Copy Guy.

I do agree, when you are starting off, it does get hard to get the phone ringing. But if you can have some big names and some big testomonials. It can pull in the big bucks.

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Scott Murdaugh

15 years ago

Susan,

Trust me... There are plenty of businesses out there that see good copywriting as an investment.

It's a lot easier to convince them that you're the right investment than it is to convince them that copy in itself is something worth investing in.

In other words, don't educate, market to the people who value your work.

-Scott

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Collette 15 years ago

Back in the day, I used to try to 'educate' (i.e. convince prospects that good copy was an investment in their business). These 'prospects' almost never had any kind of marketing plan, nor had they created any kind of budget for marketing.

And they were, without exception, floundering, flailing, or circling the drain.

Exhausting. Draining. And rarely produced any significant ROI for me.

I finally wised up.

These days, I just move on.
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Gee S

15 years ago

Ok just out of interest if someone cannot afford a four figure copywriter is it best to..

A) go for the $200 copywriter who might have some experience in copywriting OR
B) Do it yourself through learning and looking at successful sales letters?

Gurpreet

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Scott Murdaugh

15 years ago

I'd go with B)... And then if you could afford to, have a professional critique it for you.

-Scott

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BrianMcLeod 15 years ago

Originally Posted by Scott Murdaugh

I'd go with B)... And then if you could afford to, have a professional critique it for you.

-Scott

Ditto.

Spend $200 on a few of the books in the sticky on top of this forum.

Give yourself permission to fail and start writing.

Test, measure and adjust.

Make some sales.

Reinvest that into a serious critique for between $500-$1k

Implement the advice in the critique.

Count the money.

Best,

Brian
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vinild

14 years ago

Hi Dan,

You are so right. I am an internet marketer and an entrepreneur and I used to write my own copy. In fact, I still do. Yes, I did learn copywriting. Because when I started I just didn't have the money to pay a good copywriter.

So I spend the time learning and writing my own copy. But I never realized how much time I was spending writing the copy. Never documented my time.

Then one day, I decided I will write copy for other people and I didn't know what to charge. I thought $ 100 was a good amount of money. In fact, I took a project of 6 sales letters for $ 200.

Then, I realized it would take me atleast one week with no family time, free time and basically no life to complete it.

That was my biggest mistake. It takes at least 8 hours to pull out a first draft I guess. If you are lucky that is.

It's disgusting when clients quote a cheap copywriter as a bench mark. How do you convince a client who has absolutely no understanding of copywriting?

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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

You're a little late to the party, Mal.

We've been over that one several times... on page one of this thread.

I'd link to it if I knew how... but you will find it if you read the thread.

The bottom line is hiring a cheap copywriter is like playing the lottery. You might get lucky but usually you just end up flushing your cash down the crapper.

If you want to play Russian Roulette with your biz... go ahead. But I don't with mine and I would advise everyone else not to as well.

-Dan

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vinild 14 years ago

That can also be true when you hire an expensive copywriter. There are several people who charge big bucks and deliver very little.

It's a risk when you hire someone for the first time either way.
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- Jag82 14 years ago
  
  "Why You Should NEVER Hire a Cheap Copywriter"
  
  I think this statement is a bit harsh.
  
  Before anything, I always believe in paying top
  dollars for top service. You get what you pay for.
  
  However we don't want to be too generalizing
  in our statements.
  
  There are copywriters out there who offer
  affordable prices but return great value.
  
  Low cost doesn't necessarily mean low value.
  Likewise, high cost doesn't necessarily mean high value.
  
  When you were a newbie, you were probably charging
  way lesser than what you are charging for now, right?
  
  But does that mean your copy will ALWAYS fail to deliver
  just because you are charging low fees?
  
  The words "SHOULD" and "NEVER" are too harsh.
  
  Jag
  
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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

You're a little late to the party, Mal.

We've been over that one several times... on page one of this thread.

I'd link to it if I knew how... but you will find it if you read the thread.

The bottom line is hiring a cheap copywriter is like playing the lottery. You might get lucky but usually you just end up flushing your cash down the crapper.

If you want to play Russian Roulette with your biz... go ahead. But I don't with mine and I would advise everyone else not to as well.

-Dan

I just find it a tad ironic. Don't you? Here you are advising the campers not to hire a cheap copywriter and yet in April of this year - three months before this post - you were offering your services for $97. So effectively you're saying if someone had hired you they may have been flushing their dough down the drain. I note you got five takers and then said you'd be increasing your price to $197. LOL.

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erwindegrave

14 years ago

Cheap copy writing services might probably give you cheap profits!
Anyway, you can hire a copywriter who is not cheap enough but affordable. :-)
Cheap is very different with affordable...

Remember this, in the internet, the cheapest service is normally the the ones who gives poorest satisfaction :-)

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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

No, I don't... and here's why.

Those people were taking a gamble. They didn't know me, what my skills were, or if I could string a sentence together.

Admittedly, it worked out for them... they got lucky.

Most of the time it doesn't work that way.

I did three letters at that price - taking me about 40 hours each - because I had no portfolio and figured if I was gonna have one... I may as well make some money while I did it, right?

After that I did a letter for $500... then a letter for $1500... so it wasn't $197.

But 99% of the time if you want a $100 sales letter... you'll get crap.

It's simple time investment... on the return on it.

You know all this Mal... so why you constantly have to have a dig at me I don't know... but it's getting old.

-Dan

P.S. This was in the ORIGINAL FREAKING POST - which you guys should read BEFORE you start commenting...

"Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter. But I'd be surprised if they did more than, say, five letters until they hit the 4-figure mark (at least)."

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Jag82

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

P.S. This was in the ORIGINAL FREAKING POST - which you guys should read BEFORE you start commenting...

"Now, I'll admit, there is OCCASIONALLY a decent cheap copywriter. But I'd be surprised if they did more than, say, five letters until they hit the 4-figure mark (at least)."

Okay, so you admit that, on occasions, you will find decent
and cheap copywriters out there. Like you were yourself merely a few months back.

If that is the case, is it still appropriate to say that one should never hire a cheap copywriter?

Will it better if we say:
"Why you will want to hire a copywriter based on the value (ROI) he can give you and not just on his fees alone"?

Food for thought.

Jag

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euhlir

14 years ago

Yeah you should never hire a poor copywriter. That's mistake number #1.

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Daniel Scott

14 years ago

Sure... I'll change it to "Why You Should Usually Never, In Fact Almost Always Never, But Once In a While It's Okay To Hire a Cheap Copywriter, So Long As You Meet Numerous Other Factors".

Not nearly as a compelling headline, is it?

Come on guys... this is a copywriting forum.

I don't see the need to change it... if people actually read the post there wouldn't be an issue.

-Dan

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The Copy Nazi

Banned 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Sure... I'll change it to "Why You Should Usually Never, In Fact Almost Always Never, But Once In a While It's Okay To Hire a Cheap Copywriter, So Long As You Meet Numerous Other Factors".

Not nearly as a compelling headline, is it?

Come on guys... this is a copywriting forum.

I don't see the need to change it... if people actually read the post there wouldn't be an issue.

-Dan

What! I like it. Really. But put "never" in caps like you did on the other. And maybe it should be "as long as they meet numerous other factors".

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Mike Anthony 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Daniel Scott

Come on guys... this is a copywriting forum.

I don't see the need to change it... if people actually read the post there wouldn't be an issue.

-Dan

Like I said no amount of words covers it. Come on Dan - a little honesty here in celebration of the FTC guidelines. Its not the first I've seen you on the topic of cheap copywriters. Its a recurring theme with you not just a headline you came up with. If you remember you got all up in a lather about a newbie copywriting contest as well because you claimed it had to pay big bucks or it was garbage. Do you realize how transparent that all seems now?

Dude - blasting the idea of a cheap prize and writing numerous long posts designed to dissuade people from hiring cheap copywriters and now we learn you used to work for cheap - THIS YEAR?

If that were a headline on a sales page it would have a high abandon rate when people see the body content. Thats all i'm saying. It comes across as really a pill to swallow. I'm not looking for a flame war or anything. Its just that after the way you came out in that thread and others it comes across a bit hypocritical and your responses after the fact don't cover that up.
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- Daniel Scott 14 years ago
  
  Thanks Mike.
  
  Basically the point I'm trying to make here is for every Mike Humphreys or Vin Montello who do a couple of letters for cheap... there are a hundred crappy copywriters who will take your money and not deliver.
  
  And it's very rare you'll find one of those guys.
  
  That's it. That was my point. No offense meant to anyone.
  
  This is the last I'm going to say about the issue as it seems to be going around in circles.
  
  I didn't start this post to do anything other than try and pass on what I figured out the hard way.
  
  Some of you don't believe me, and that's cool. Heck, I can understand why it was interpreted the way it was.
  
  But honestly, while I've gotten a couple of clients here, it's not a main source of my inquiries.
  
  And to those of you who think I'm dead wrong... it's your opinion and you're welcome to it.
  
  However... here's a few things to take note of...
  
  1. The people who "Thanked" me for my original post... guys like Paul Hancox, Mike Humphreys, and Scott Murdaugh... all good copywriters who have been around the biz a fair while.
  
  2. The kind of people who have posted in this thread agreeing with me - like Vin Montello.
  
  You guys don't have to agree with me... but at least cut out all the personal attacks.
  
  Some people will think what I have to say makes sense. Some won't. I don't really care either way... it's a discussion forum and I've stated my opinion. You're welcome to yours.
  
  Frankly, I never expected this thread to go crazy like this... and I've spent way too much time and energy on it as it is.
  
  But aside from all that... people seem to be insinuating that I have a personal stake in this. I don't.
  
  If someone is looking to pay $500 or whatever for a piece of copy they're not the kind of person who's gonna hire me... regardless of how much persuasion I bring to the table.
  
  I might be able to bring someone up from $500 to $1000... but $500 to $5000? Not gonna happen.
  
  Knowing that... what do I have to gain by posting this?
  
  Answer: Nothing... except sharing my views on the subject.
  
  Also... people seem to be shocked I used to work for cheap. Something I can't understand, considering I talked about it at length on the first page of this thread.
  
  I've never made any secrets about where I've come from or the path my journey's taken... so don't make me out to look like I've got something to hide. I don't.
  
  Hopefully that sets the record straight.
  
  And just to re-iterate... I won't be posting any more rebuttals on this thread... just in case sometime uses that as a reason to confirm my supposed guilt or whatever.
  
  -Dan
  
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  Mike Anthony 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Daniel Scott
  
  I didn't start this post to do anything other than try and pass on what I figured out the hard way.
  
  No personal attacks have been made . Every poster here has to be evaluated in regard to credibility. I haven't called anyone names or made any points about personality. You made a statement and people are pointing out in regard to your professional (not personal) history the lack of credibility to those statements.
  
  Anyway I have no idea what you are passing on the hard way. By your own admission you weren't worth what you got paid and yet from that you built referrals to your work (so some found it of benefit) that got you to where you allege you are today.
  
  Hard is working for less than you are worth and not meeting the bills.
  
  My only request (especially in light of the revelations of where you were just a few months ago) is that you stop endlessly trying to cast a negative light on other copywriters that dont' charge what you do (you have done this repetitively under various guises).
  
  Evaluate the copy - the work itself - if you like. Its fair game (and anyone can do the same for yours as well) but theres no sense in running around trying to price fix everyone else's business. Do that and it will stop people from legitmately wondering why you do that
  
  and finally to all stop trying to insinuate that if someone can't hire a 4 figure copywriter they ought to to do it themselves or forget about IM even though they might not be able to write ANYTHING at all
  
  It makes no sense.
  
  A coherently written sales page even if it has no zing is always going to do better than an incoherent sales page without the same zing.
  
  The record is now set straight. Like I said no amount of word massaging changes things
  
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- Mike Anthony 14 years ago
  
  Originally Posted by Paul McQuillan
  
  I call it "gotta pay the bills" and "build a portfolio" and "LEARNING"
  
  In order to elevate themselves, some decimate others
  
  later
  
  No lie there. I really don't think its the headline that got the thread posted in so often. Dan could have written anything regarding the pricing of copywriting jobs and enough copywriters would have participated and bumped the thread repeatedly. The subject matter is something we would all respond to.
  
  and like I said this is just a recurring theme with a poster that obviously has much more time than he lets on to write long posts dissuading others from giving relatively new copywriters the same breaks he got just a few months ago. Its really self serving. Its like Lebron looking over at some prodigy in high school and saying that he shouldn't be given a shot at the NBA because he's obviously too young to be any good.
  
  Sorry its garbage (said with a french flair)
  
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kally003

14 years ago

[DELETED]

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Paul D Brady 14 years ago

Hi All,

As someone who is trying to work out how to afford paying you guys for the undoubted great copy you'd create, this thread leaves me a little perplexed.

On the one hand, I agree wholeheatedly with the priniciple of you get what you pay for.

On the other, as I'm just a basic copywriter for my own IM stuff I am in the position of not being able to charge large amounts of money for creating an article or sales page.

One thing that does irritate is - all the sites offering out copywriting & writers services for $1 per 500-1000 word article. In my opinion, this drags the whole business down and simply encourages the production of crap, sloppy copy. Maybe there should be a reasonable minimum charge? What do you guys and girls think?

Anyway, thanks for sharing. I get more and more out of this great Forum every time I'm here.

Cheers
Paul
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Mike Anthony

14 years ago

Okay To the extent that my legitmate observations stirred anything I'd like to say that we not get into a flame war here. Mark you made some great points but who runs behind whose skirt and the acrimony lets not go there my friend.

I no longer mind the jabs anyone makes. I can't see anything but encouragement to new and yes even cheap copywriters to continue what they are doing. We now have several firm examples of how it can pay off down the road and in the interim help people who in a down economy can't afford either a $15,000 copy class or a $3,000 copywriter.

This thread is an excellent reference to self promotion and its out in the open now so its a good thing for all copywriters. It served a very good purpose. Lets not get it locked. lets keep it on the topic of the OP and civil. I rather doubt its going to be as easy anymore to put down cheap copywriters - on this forum at least - and I applaud that.

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Scott Murdaugh

14 years ago

My .02,

First of all I started out writing for cheap.

A lot of those sales letters did great, some of them didn't. The clients who's stuff didn't convert so hot (or they didn't promote it or whatever) paid for a lot of valuable lessons for me.

So yeah, some people got a great deal. Some may not have got such a great deal. I can tell you I've learned so much this past year that it's mind boggling...

For example, I completely disagree with this...

Since all of us are in effect in direct
competition with each other

I disagree 100%. None of us are in competition with each other...

There are more people who desperately need a good copywriter than there are good copywriters to hire. Disagree, I don't care. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

As to whether or not clients want to pay $200 or $5k+ for copy, I don't care. I care about my clients, and what I feel my services are worth. I could care less about what the rest of the market is doing because it's none of my business.

I know you're running a WSO right now Mark. I hope you stay busy and do some good work.

Paul's running a WSO right now... Ditto for him. I'd love to see him rock it online.

We all have to start out somewhere, I get that. I did that.

I don't mind a guy writing for free if he has to.

I will tell you, the clients who I want to work with... The guys who have awesome products to promote, the guys who value my work and my time, the best guys I've ever worked with...

When they're looking for a copywriter the upfront price is the least of their concerns. ROI is number one.

Never hire a cheap copywriter...

For the most part I'd agree. But if I can't write copy, and I've got a product I want to sell, and a shoe string marketing budget I'm probably going to find a guy who can write a coherent and somewhat convincing letter for me on the cheap.

If I've got $1k to spend on marketing at least half of that is going to traffic. Conversions are important, but if I'm that broke and I spend the entire budget on the copy, traffic is going to be a slow and painful process.

Or maybe I've got a new product idea and I just want to gauge interest in the market before hitting it full throttle.

BUT, if I've got a $100k marketing budget, I don't want a "coherent" sales letter. I want to stack the odds in my favor and get something that converts, so I can slam it with traffic day after day and consistently turn a profit.

He may well
be more experienced now, courtesy of Vin's no
doubt about it, brilliant teaching methods for the
most part but has he been in business working
for himself for a full on 26 years plus?

Experience counts for something, but so does natural ability. I'm 27.

Dan is younger than me, and I have tremendous respect for his copy. Has Vin taught him a lot? I'm sure of it. Could Dan get to where he is now in this amount of time without natural talent? No.

I regularly write for and consult with guys who've been in business longer than I've been alive. Why? I have specialized knowledge and can help them. They have no interest in learning what I do for a living, they'd rather pay for specialized knowledge. Win/win.

Robert Plank is younger than I am. I have the up most respect for that guy. Experience counts for something, but a natural intuition and understanding what makes people buy and how to subtly press those buttons is just as important.

One of my clients right now is 17... I had no idea until I jokingly brought up a trip to Vegas. Smart kid with tremendous marketing knowledge and a great insight into product development.

I've got more on the subject but I'll close with...

If you've got time to argue on this forum over what you charge, or if you think we're all in competition with each other, maybe you should spend some time off of the forum...

I don't mean that in a bad way or "get off of my forum" kind of way. I mean, quite literally, that my LEAST productive time is spent here.

I love this place and I'll continue to post here for a long time to come. But I do it in moderation.

And trust me on this guys, if you're looking solely at the Warrior Forum for clients, you're swimming around in a tiny mud puddle compared to the sea of clients that exist out there in the "real world"...

Even if you write primarily online copy for internet marketers... The big players don't spend a lot of time here. Yeah, they're mostly members here, but they're too busy to browse the forums and they're probably not looking here for a copywriter either.

I think it's a moot point.

Yeah, Dan started this thread, and quickly admitted that he too once charged lower fees.

From a copywriters perspective, if you're looking at $500 copywriters it's not my job to convince you otherwise.

If you have a budget and a project that I'm a good match for, my job is to convince you why I'm the best guy to work with and then deliver the goods...

I've been a $500 copywriter. I've been a higher paid copywriter.

They're two completely different worlds with completely different clients.

I happen to prefer the latter, both the clients and the pay...

I don't knock what anyone else is doing either. It's none of my business and I really could care less. Worrying about it doesn't pay my bills.

To quote something a copywriter I very much respect said...

"No one cares which copywriter has the bigger d*ck" - You know who you are

Peace,

-Scott

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Johnny12345

14 years ago

For cryin' out loud... lighten up, people. It's not like Dan kicked your dog or something.

He made a thought-provoking post. Sometimes those are the most interesting ones. You don't have to agree with everything he said, but I don't think it requires the formation of a lynch mob. I don't think his post was meant to be mean-spirited.

Look at the number of posts he has... and the number of "thank yous." I'm just suggesting that you might want to put away the snake venom and cut the guy some slack.

Johnny

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Ken Strong 14 years ago

Not to mention this thread was dead for months before a new member decided to bump it for some reason... I thought we covered this pretty well the first time, let's move on to new topics.
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