by q3rage
20 replies
Which do you guys think is a better mailing platform? I have a list that is single opt in and has over 12 million emails. Do you think these programs can handle sending 6-12 million emails daily? If I have any problems sending this much I would proably split up the list size into 3 chunks so that each drop will send to 4 million addresses. This should help I think.

But do you think these programs can handle even 4 million messages per drop? My MTA will be PMTA (and/or Exim) so that should handle a good bit of delivery and shouldnt be a bottleneck. The server I will be using will also be dedicated server with quad core Intel CPUs, 16gb of ram, and SSD drives.

If both can handle 4million messages every day which do you think i should order Mailwizz or ArpReach? I am thinking Mailwizz because it has Parallel sending and should improve performance a bit. I also heard ArpReach support is not that good.

What do you guys think?
#arpreach #mailwizz
  • Profile picture of the author marvinoliver
    Banned
    I have used Mailwizz in a project and would support it. It has parallel processing and use redis too to send emails at very high speed to mta. If you have good mta infrastructure, then, its a great go.
    Frankly, I have never used ArpReach. Currently, I use Amazon SES / Mandrill MTA with Sendy which is taken care by EasySendy.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sarevok
    The last time I contacted ArpReach (summer 2015) they mentioned that they were in the process of creating their own hosting platform because many of their customers were complaining about a lack of alternatives.

    My advice, is to contact ArpReach and ask them what hosting they recommend these days, and if they ever got their hosting platform up and running.

    Ultimately, I prefer ArpReach because they've been around forever, and as far as I remember they are a one time sunken cost (minus the cost of hosting of course).

    So, my advice is to contact them and ask; they won't lie to you if they cannot meet your functional requirements.

    Wish you the best.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin
      Originally Posted by Sarevok View Post

      My advice, is to contact ArpReach and ask them what hosting they recommend these days, and if they ever got their hosting platform up and running.
      Thanks for the reply above.

      We are not far off being able to provide hosting for arpReach. We have been working on a list scrubbing service (arpverify.com) so that we can ensure that users can only import and add valid, real email addresses.

      This has the benefit of improving the sender score of each server's IP address, which in turn means better deliverability rates and a reduced risk of users killing IP addresses.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kevin
    The first thing my team will tell you is that to add 12 million emails to any server and then try to send to all of them without warming up your IP address first is a sure way to get your IP address blacklisted.

    You would be better breaking your list down in to 10K segments and mailing out 10K a day for a week to start the warm-up process. Then you can gradually ramp up your sending rate over a period of 30 - 45 days. May be even longer. You really do need to build up 'credibility' to get that many emails into the inbox of your recipients.

    I'd also suggest that you scrub your list before sending anything to remove dead addresses before you add them into the software.

    If you have dead addresses that result in bounces your sender score will drop like a lead balloon and you'll find it difficult to recover within 45 - 60 days. If the bounce percentage is to high then you might not recover for months. If you have anyone that might also complain about you sending spam on top of bounces, frankly you'd be wasting your effort.

    The next issue you'll face with any software (including arpReach) when trying to send 12M emails per day is not so much the sending but the fact it is a two way process. Outbound and inbound responses. The results of clicks, tracking etc will all need to be stored and updated in the database and that volume will create a huge performance hit to the hardware.

    arpReach allows you to send your emails in batches up to the capacity of the server but we would not recommend you do that. You need to allow overhead.

    I can tell you that with that volume of emails you really will need a *great* server admin to configure not only the MTA but also the database as well. What you're asking for is to send 139 emails a second. And then process all of the responses that get sent back.

    My suggestion would be to run two or three servers to give you some form of resilience. We do have users sending 4 - 5M daily but even then the servers are *well* configured. And server config is something we don't get involved in.

    I hope that helps some.
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    • Profile picture of the author q3rage
      Originally Posted by Kevin View Post

      The first thing my team will tell you is that to add 12 million emails to any server and then try to send to all of them without warming up your IP address first is a sure way to get your IP address blacklisted.

      You would be better breaking your list down in to 10K segments and mailing out 10K a day for a week to start the warm-up process. Then you can gradually ramp up your sending rate over a period of 30 - 45 days. May be even longer. You really do need to build up 'credibility' to get that many emails into the inbox of your recipients.

      I'd also suggest that you scrub your list before sending anything to remove dead addresses before you add them into the software.

      If you have dead addresses that result in bounces your sender score will drop like a lead balloon and you'll find it difficult to recover within 45 - 60 days. If the bounce percentage is to high then you might not recover for months. If you have anyone that might also complain about you sending spam on top of bounces, frankly you'd be wasting your effort.

      The next issue you'll face with any software (including arpReach) when trying to send 12M emails per day is not so much the sending but the fact it is a two way process. Outbound and inbound responses. The results of clicks, tracking etc will all need to be stored and updated in the database and that volume will create a huge performance hit to the hardware.

      arpReach allows you to send your emails in batches up to the capacity of the server but we would not recommend you do that. You need to allow overhead.

      I can tell you that with that volume of emails you really will need a *great* server admin to configure not only the MTA but also the database as well. What you're asking for is to send 139 emails a second. And then process all of the responses that get sent back.

      My suggestion would be to run two or three servers to give you some form of resilience. We do have users sending 4 - 5M daily but even then the servers are *well* configured. And server config is something we don't get involved in.

      I hope that helps some.
      i alraedy have white-listed IPs from previous servers/hosting companies. The price per IP is a bit more but I have tested them with a few other platforms such as interspire and it helps speed up the process. also for some address that are GI and not TLD warming up IPs is not that important.

      My list has already been scrubbed by reputable companies like ImpressionWise and HygieneAgent. Also your service ArpVerify is WAY overpriced. Companies like BridgeCorp offer 10million credits for about $1100 last I checked and they do a lot more than basic syntax check and mx check (I think any MTA can do that for free lol). I used BridgeCorep before and only got like 2-3 soft bounces from a list of 1mm. highly recommend them if you decided to hire a company to do verification. But really no verification company can match the pinpoint accuracy of simply emailing your list on a throwaway IP range (doesnt need to be a big range, a cheap /29 will do) and just gather all the hard bounces at the end of the mailing campaign and segment them from your master list. I find this does a much better job at verifying addresses then any other company out there and it only costs about $50 (premium VPS plus a few IPs).

      As for the configuration. Yes an MTA needs to be configured properly but thats quite easy to do with PMTA (even with Exim, a few configuration changes to its config file + some tuning to your preferred database). In fact 4 million in the span of a day is peanuts for PMTA. Some mailers can send 5million an hour with good hardware. I just need to send 12 million, maybe just 10 and after i split the list into chunks its just about 3-4million and even then i dont need to have it sent in a hour. 24 hours will do which PMTA can do in its sleep lol.

      However I already mentioned I will be using a professional setup (PMTA + good hardware from a solid hosting company). I just need to know if the front-end is capable of communicating with this setup.

      You said you have some users sending that much with a good config/setup so that's promising. At least it shows that people are able to get it done with this software.
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  • Profile picture of the author DIABL0
    There are much better programs than the ones you mention that can handle high volume. Your just not going to be aware of them, as WF doesn't really have high volume mailers as members that discuss this kind of stuff. However, they are way more expensive! You can easily spend $5K-$10K per year for a single license. Keep in mind that bandwidth will also be key and the actual domains in the list, as some domains smtp's are much slower to process mail than the large providers. Sending 12mm per day is very possible, there are just things that have to be taken into consideration.

    You say you have a list that is single opt-in. Is it your list that you built and the recipients are going to recognize you as the sender and not generate complaints or have spam traps, etc... in the list?

    If the answer is no, then you will be in for a rude awakening, as it will be much more complicated pulling it off.
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    • Profile picture of the author q3rage
      Originally Posted by DIABL0 View Post

      There are much better programs than the ones you mention that can handle high volume. Your just not going to be aware of them, as WF doesn't really have high volume mailers as members that discuss this kind of stuff. However, they are way more expensive! You can easily spend $5K-$10K per year for a single license. Keep in mind that bandwidth will also be key and the actual domains in the list, as some domains smtp's are much slower to process mail than the large providers. Sending 12mm per day is very possible, there are just things that have to be taken into consideration.

      You say you have a list that is single opt-in. Is it your list that you built and the recipients are going to recognize you as the sender and not generate complaints or have spam traps, etc... in the list?

      If the answer is no, then you will be in for a rude awakening, as it will be much more complicated pulling it off.
      I am sure there are better programs but the owner of this list has a small budget and these list managers are from a list that he gave me. He also had interspire and drh.net. DRH is promising but they are a one stop shop and that limits the flexibility.

      As for the list its been cleaned by a few hygiene providers already and was screened by a certain company that tests for reputation and the risk associated with this list is really small. I can also confirm after mailing it we received very little bounce rates and after mailing none of our IPs were listed at any of the major blacklists and this was confirmed after waiting for 72 hours before finally coming to a conclusion. Our scomps were nothing out of the ordinary and our FBL program is still in good standing and only received 0.02 % complaints which is pretty good in my opinion since we were mailing high risk offers lol. It also doesnt hurt this list was bought from one of the top bloggers in the credit niche

      however I am not sure if that last part is true. I think he bought it from a blogger that did a list swap (Thats the only way he could have gotten that many subscribers unless he also combined the list with an older list) Im not sure but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because this list while not one of the best in our database has given us no problem whatsoever on our interspire setup but thats probably because of what I did to this list (it was my idea of sending to the cleaners lol)
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      • Profile picture of the author bobby_shahzad
        12 million is a lot of data and it is not easy to mail such a large volume

        1. I think ARP reach is better choice as I have seen ARP sending up to 1 million per day. But to achieve that speed you need to configure it in a special way

        2. This is not possible to send Bulk Emails now a days. Unless you have pure double optin leads, you just cant do it. Otherwise very quickly your IPs will get blacklisted

        3. You need to make sure you comply with CAN-SPAM , for more information read FTC guidelines

        https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/busi...guide-business

        4. Get your email list cleaned before every mailing to it. I am sure a good number of data will be bad, invalid or will bounce
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  • Profile picture of the author q3rage
    lol you didnt even bother to read the posts in this thread.

    quit posting in threads just to advertise your link signature...

    and i am sure you are just copying and pasting but just to make it clear sending bulk mail with the right software is not as complicated as one would think. It might be complicated for average joes but even people with basic certs like RHCE can properly configure Exim or Postfix enough to send out a couple hundred thousands emails via a server with quad core, 8 gigs of ram, ssd drives and decently tuned database and basic bandwidth. Just gotta make sure you use cleaning from reputable companies like HygieneAgent or ImpressionWise and not some bs cleaning like the one in your signature ($400 for 1 million records LOL...I bet you guys are not even up to par with the companies i listed above and they only charge like $250-300 per million and they've been around for years and every well known mailer will back them up all day).

    in fact you are probably just trying to make it sound complicated so people will fall for your advertising link and pay for overpriced garbage smtp servers.

    I usually dont out people but everything you said in that post has been spoken for (I already said the data has been cleaned thoroughly, i also mentioned how I use PMTA with premium hardware and bandwidth. I also mentioned how after using reputable hygiene companies I've been able to avoid major blacklistings (Zen, Barracuda, etc) And to say bulk email is not possible anymore and yet your link is advertising everything related to bulk email lmao..jesus what nonsense..at least try and put some effort next time you spam forums with your link signature..no wonder your business looks shady as f***.
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  • Profile picture of the author q3rage
    I ended up purchasing mailwizz.

    and wow it really is an amazing platform for the price. only 50 bucks but easily worth hundreds of dollars
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  • Profile picture of the author ddev
    My MailWizz Review:

    I've been now using MailWizz for a while and although it has many decent features here are some
    limitations that IMHO, are critical:

    MailWizz Biggest Limitations....

    In general, you can't get decent information about your lists. If you come from Aweber,
    GetResponse etc...

    ...you'll feel blind with the information that you get from your lists here.

    You can "add people to lists"....but you need more than that (you need to get statistical
    info about those lists + some other things).

    Let me show you some specific examples.

    --> You can't know which subscribers are becoming unresponsive (not opening your emails).

    Every email that you send costs you money. And being able to delete those who are not opening your emails, could help you to do something with them (delete, send emails to re engage etc).

    This function is present in almost every autoresponder (Aweber, GetResponse or any other) but unfortunately, it's not present in MailWizz.

    You can only know which users didn't open a specific campaign (broadcast) of your choice but this won't help you at all as you need to be able to know "Unopens" for a given period (example: no opens between date 1 and date 2).

    This way you could delete subscribers with "Unopens" for 2 or 3 months (for example).

    --> In General, The Segmentation is ....Toooooooo Basic (This is a Huge Limitation)

    And when i say it's too basic....i'm generous (you can create segments of people who
    have some email address (???) or people with a certain name (are you desperate for segments like these?)).

    Doesn't make sense.

    ARPReach seems to have a serious approach....

    "....Segment your campaigns on unlimited fields, including custom fields. Segment by individual or multiple fields for maximum personalization. Include or exclude autoresponders, customer lists, subscription date, link-clicks (or not clicked), message opened (or not opened). There truly are endless possibilities for segmentation because you can set any number of "include" or "exclude" criteria per segment...."

    ....In short, You can do nothing with the segmentation that MailWizz provides. Really.

    --> You Can't Tag Your Subscribers.

    This is something that you can't do with MailWizz but can do with ArpReach.

    For example, if a subscriber clicks a link about "seo software", that tag can be added to
    the subscriber so you can later create a campaign only for the subscribers who have that
    specific interest.

    MailWizz only allows you to "copy" subscribers to different lists but doesn't support
    a tagging system. With ArpReach you can handle unlimited tags without having to
    copy people to different lists.

    --> You Can't Exclude Lists From Your Broadcasts (Like with Aweber etc).

    Suppose that you have these 2 lists: "Freebies" and "Buyers", and
    both have 1000subscribers in common.

    You may want to send emails to the "Freebies" list more frequently,
    excluding the subscribers who are in the "Buyers" list (the subs in common).

    Well, unfortunately this is not possible because they don't have the option to exclude lists
    from broadcasts (subscribers that may be subscribed to other lists that you may indicate).

    All that they have is a tool that creates a third list where you can remove subs that 2 lists
    have in common but this doesn't help at all as it's a list that contains the subscribers that you
    had up to a certain date (new subs will be excluded).

    Comment: You can add lists to a broadcast (campaign), but you can't exclude lists from a broadcast.

    These are basically the big limitations that i've found but if you can live without them, this tool can be fine but nothing else.

    I don't own a copy of ARPReach but taking a look at its features, it looks like a better tool (from what i see, it covers the previous items that i've described before + it allows you to have more control over you lists).
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  • Profile picture of the author q3rage
    not sure if you are an arpreach rep or just dont know how to operate a self hosted platform because the above list tracking is not true and segmentation is all about link/subscriber tracking not mail delivery. As for excluding subscribers from lists, again that is false.

    no offense just speaking the truth.

    the tagging part might be true idk its not something i ever thought about using, all my emails are collected from targeted campaigns so why tag when you should already know what your subscriber wants before even sending a single email?

    i sound harsh i know but its just the truth.

    maybe talk with the developer and he'll teach you how to user mailwizz? not sure he'll help with the segmentation as that is something that is dependent on how you track your campaigns.

    And you only pay a one time cost and get every update plus access to forums and ticket support from the developer. All for just $50 bucks.
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    • Profile picture of the author Kevin
      As the owner of arpReach I can tell you that ddev isn't a rep for me but I do want to thank him for his post.

      I'd like to also just cover a few points you've made
      Originally Posted by q3rage View Post

      segmentation is all about link/subscriber tracking not mail delivery
      This is not correct. Segmentation has been proved to improve email delivery. Segmenting out unresponsive, un-engaged subscribers (along with dead email addresses) improves the deliverability of broadcast and subscription emails and also improves the chances of your emails being delivered to the primary inbox and not the spam folder.

      Originally Posted by q3rage View Post

      the tagging part might be true idk its not something i ever thought about using, all my emails are collected from targeted campaigns so why tag when you should already know what your subscriber wants before even sending a single email?
      Tagging is very important when it comes to segmentation of your new and existing contact records. I have to say I think it is a short-sighted approach to say that someone should know what they want before sending a single email but not think in the longer term or about building trust and a relationship with your subscribers.

      People's needs and wants change over time and tagging is a great way to capture additional details about a subscribers needs or interests without subscribing them to a new list.

      As an example of how arpReach helps you build and maintain a better profile of your subscribers, think of the following.

      Subscriber X is on List A, Subscriber Y is on List B
      You send out an email asking if your subscribers are interested in Subject 1, 2 or 3 and to register that interest, each of the options is a link they click.

      arpReach allows you to assign one or more actions to a link. In this scenario subscribers who click on any or all of the links are tagged with interest 1, 2 or 3 in a separate database table.

      Lets suggest that Subscriber X is interested in Subjects 1 and 3 while Subscriber Y is interested in 2 and 3

      The arpReach approach means that you can send highly targeted emails to subscribers based on any of their interests or the lists they are on i.e
      On List 1 AND has Interest 1
      On List 1 OR List 2 AND has Interest 2
      On List 1 OR List 2 AND has Interest 2 AND Interest 3
      or any other combination you can think of.

      In other words you can create segments and filters to suit your changing needs while keep breathing life into your existing contact base.

      The flexibility that arpReach offers is why it is not $50 but having said that, it is also a one-time cost, you get updates, and there's a support desk as well.
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      • Profile picture of the author q3rage
        This is not correct. Segmentation has been proved to improve email delivery. Segmenting out unresponsive, un-engaged subscribers (along with dead email addresses) improves the deliverability of broadcast and subscription emails and also improves the chances of your emails being delivered to the primary inbox and not the spam folder.
        Hmm not sure if you are understanding my post because I never brought up the topic of whether or not segmentation helps with deliverability or not. I was making a point of how a platform (in this case, Mailwizz) is in fact able to segment based on it code and not the way its backend delivers email.

        I am somewhat confused by your post as it doesnt relate to my response to him saying Mailwizz does not allow segmentation because like I said that is false. I segment daily. But yes, Its pretty fair to say anyone utilizing email will know that you want to take out the subscribers that didnt open an email, hard bounced (and sometimes soft bounced), unsubscribed or marked your email as spam.

        I dont think anyone can argue that. But then again no one brought that up so i'll just end it there.

        Tagging is very important when it comes to segmentation of your new and existing contact records.
        Seems like a neat feature. I suppose if you dont know much about your subscribners this will come in handy. I suppose different people handle their email collection methods differently. I'm sure its helpful in certain ways. I just assume most people that utilize proper list building tactics know that their readers who are into "X" will want "X" info.

        Without sound too harsh, again lol...I suppose if you are targeting people who just want to make money online you could tag the ones interested in seo, affiliate marke3ting, social media marketing, PPC marketing, etc etc ec...

        That would come in handy for sure. But my acne list wants to remove acne so they get acne treatment/info (i dont have an acne list but you get the gist of it).

        Email is diverse so just depends what your business plan is i suppose
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    • Profile picture of the author ddev
      Originally Posted by q3rage View Post

      not sure if you are an arpreach rep or just dont know how to operate a self hosted platform because the above list tracking is not true and segmentation is all about link/subscriber tracking not mail delivery. As for excluding subscribers from lists, again that is false.

      no offense just speaking the truth.

      the tagging part might be true idk its not something i ever thought about using, all my emails are collected from targeted campaigns so why tag when you should already know what your subscriber wants before even sending a single email?

      i sound harsh i know but its just the truth.

      maybe talk with the developer and he'll teach you how to user mailwizz? not sure he'll help with the segmentation as that is something that is dependent on how you track your campaigns.

      And you only pay a one time cost and get every update plus access to forums and ticket support from the developer. All for just $50 bucks.

      Hi q3rage,

      I'm not a rep of someone else etc. I'm a programmer and i sell my own products. Period.

      That said, what i've wrote about MailWizz is because i own a copy (i can't say something good or bad about ArpReach because i don't own a copy - i just see the features that their app has but it's a mistery to me).

      I'm not saying that MailWizz it's a bad product...i'm just remarking the things that i've found that it doesn't have.

      Excluding Subscribers From Other Lists ("Excluding Lists", the way i call it): What i say is 100% accurate.

      If you read my post, you'll be able to see what they have: a tool that "creates a third list" without subs in common from 2 lists, something that doesn't help if you're adding/removing subscribers on a daily basis.

      Otherwise, that "third list" will be outdated by the end of the day (you need something dynamic like with aweber: just pick the lists to "Exclude" from a broadcast and that's all) .

      Segmentation: Don't understand your point but maybe i'm wrong with something (and i'll be happy to correct that).

      For example:

      - Can you target subs who didn't open your emails for the past 60 days? (Update: Now You Can)

      - Can you target subs who were added to your list before / after some date?

      What can you target by using segments?

      Comment: In my previous post i missed this feature (which i was already aware of, just missed it)...if you want you can target subs who opened (or not) a specific broadcast. Just wanted to add this to be fair.

      Anyway, i've just posted the limitations that i've found (not saying that's a bad tool at all).

      Nothing else.

      And once again, i'm not talking as the rep of ArpReach (don't own a copy of it, don't know if it really works as it says or not - i'm not recommending it) or any other tool (hope that you're on the same path).
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  • Profile picture of the author webbusineses
    OP, the first to consider is your list, in case of a single optin email list, you may be having anyone subscribing to your list, without the email confirmation. So not all of the contacts in your lists having the valid emails, you are likely to receive hard bounces. So unless you segment your list well, you will hardly be able to sustain your sending reputation.


    Parallel sending
    is good idea, but with the capability to implement advance email list segmentation strategy. Idea of using Commercial MTA application like the PowerMTA is again the right thing you can do, but do consider front end software which is more optimized to work with PowerMTA and helps configuring the infrastructure. Consider something able to implement behavioral triggers to segment based on interests, ability of tracking geographical location of clickers and openers, and several options to separate out subscribers by accounting logs. Do search for other options like Interspire, Mumara etc..
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  • Profile picture of the author limitbreaker
    In my opinion... I think Arpreach is better though aam currently using sendy
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  • Profile picture of the author ddev
    To be fair, the developer of MailWizz has listened to many suggestions which has implemented:

    Here are some:

    - Track Unresponsive Subs: You can now see who opened (or not) your emails for a given period of time. This is good to keep your lists clean.

    - Conversion Tracking: You can know which subscribers purchased a product (affiliate or your own).

    This is cool as (if you're promoting an affiliate product that supports conversion tracking), you can pass the id of each subscriber as the tracking code.

    Then, when you make a sale you can find the subscriber by its id and do whatever you want (for example if you've created a custom field - like "VIP" - you can tag those subscribers so you treat them differently).

    The app is making a good progress and i'll be posting more about its updates when possible.
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    • Profile picture of the author twisted1919
      @ddev - Thanks, doing my best
      Mailwizz evolved nicely along the time, it started so simple and it become so complex at this time. Remember that with right infrastructure, Mailwizz can also be used as a SAAS platform and has all the features to monetize it like so. I am not aware of many apps at $50 that does this at this scale.
      I am also aware of the things it lacks, but as you noted, i usually listen and implement missing bits
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  • Profile picture of the author Sean DeSilva
    I can't speak to which program does better sending high volumes. One little hassle about ARPreach is that you have to create a tracking link and then manually insert the tracking link tag in the email. Compared to the automatic tracking of most hosted email services it's pretty cumbersome. Other than that I liked ARPreach.
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