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Are a lot of email marketers hypocrites, or just flat out liars?

by Declan O Flaherty
40 replies
A lot of people on here, and everywhere tbh, are giving out advice about building relationships with your subscribers.

Give value they say. Treat your subscribers like human beings and not as numbers.

But when I look at their squeeze pages, they have nothing but a hyped up headline and a sign up form.

The offer is vague. The claim big. And they hide the details of the offer behind a wall of curiosity.

You see these squeeze pages everywhere, right?

So, if you use blind copy squeeze pages to build your list; how easy is it to then build a relationship with the people who signed up?

And... if you land on these squeeze pages yourself, and sign up for the free offer, how likely are you to trust that person who hid the details of the offer from you... until after you gave them your contact details?

Is it hypocritical to say you want to help people; that you have their best interests at heart, but then ask them for their contact details in exchange for a "blind" offer with a big claim?

What are your thoughts?
#email #flat #hypocrites #liars #lot #marketers
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  • Profile picture of the author SARubin
    Yeah Declan,

    Many of them are hypocrites and liars. (scammers, spammers, and greedy little wannabe con-artists)

    Others are probably just lost souls that simply don't get it. They read about "creating value and building relationships" somewhere, without actually understanding what that truly means.

    And then they try to take shortcuts because some course told them to simply follow a "Proven?" template system for building relationships.

    I always try to tell people that sincerity and authenticity comes through in your marketing.

    But many people simply don't get it, or they don't care because they're too busy trying to fast-track their way to "internet millions" .

    99% of them are the same people who end up on a forum asking "why can't I get any sales when I'm following all the steps?"

    To those people all I can say is "Sorry cupcake, but following the motions of a swimmer is useless when you don't yet understand the concept of water".
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by SARubin View Post


      Others are probably just lost souls that simply don't get it. They read about "creating value and building relationships" somewhere, without actually understanding what that truly means.

      It seems to me when people put on "marketing" hats, they lose all sense of how to treat people.

      Usually the same people who pop on over to JVzoo to promote popular products that were created for affiliates to promote, and not for customers to consume, eh? But that's another thread for another time.

      Have a good one mate.
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  • Profile picture of the author savidge4
    Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

    What are your thoughts?
    I have gotten to the point where I rarely obtain e-mail address' sell right then and there or not - it becomes a numbers game.. BUT the reason for the shift for me was the obvious transparency. No gaming, no hiding, no sleeze ball quadruple upsells - just straight up here is what I am selling, and here is how much it is - not interested? Fine, Ill pixel target the crap out of you until you are interested LOL

    My personal sites all have 1 thing in common at this point... they sell product, as in physical hold in your hands type stuff and not a one right now sells information. The only e-mails I collect are from those that buy.. and that means all I have are buyer lists ( the wholly grail of mailing lists no? ) and I don't flash timers, or say this offer is going to disappear, or suggest the video is going to be taken down, or flat out hide the fact I am sending you off to a 3rd party sales page - to buy something I have never bought / seen / read myself.

    I have a friend of mine that decided he wanted the easy life and started a youtube channel... you know what, with some time and consistency, he left his day job and now he is a full time youtuber. The poor ******* works more than I do LOL - BUT he loves every minute of it. and to be honest.. that right there is the secret to success, not only online but offline as well, Love what it is you do.

    You don't have to love all of it.. Some people say oh just outsource the parts you don't like... I will call BS to that idea... grin and bear it and learn to love it I say!

    Success online offline in relationships with anything requires work.. and that concept has somewhere gone out the door.. well let me rephrase that... the concept of work has been replace with the idea that lazy pays the bills... as yet another WF members electricity gets shut off.

    You want paradise and island hopping and Lambos EARN IT... and after you figure out after getting all of that you are still broke... maybe.. JUST MAYBE you will wake up and understand that lifestyle and life are 2 different things.. and you will begin living your life, and not someone elses idea of a lifestyle.
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

      I don't flash timers, or say this offer is going to disappear, or suggest the video is going to be taken down, or flat out hide the fact I am sending you off to a 3rd party sales page - to buy something I have never bought / seen / read myself.

      At a time when trust in marketers is at an all time low, especially online where these gimmicks have been used to con people for many years, it's prob'ly a better strategy to go in the opposite direction.
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  • Profile picture of the author Reddevil007
    Declan Flaherty the email marketing legend back with a bang
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by Reddevil007 View Post

      Declan Flaherty the email marketing legend back with a bang

      Hahaha... how's things mate?

      I've been around.

      What's your take on the "blind" squeeze pages people use to build their lists?

      Anyway, hope all is well with you.
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      • Profile picture of the author Reddevil007
        Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

        Hahaha... how's things mate?

        I've been around.

        What's your take on the "blind" squeeze pages people use to build their lists?

        Anyway, hope all is well with you.

        The whole forum would be interested in your take on the matter as to why it is wrong and what can be done to make it sound like it is being done right
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        • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
          Originally Posted by Reddevil007 View Post

          The whole forum would be interested in your take on the matter as to why it is wrong and what can be done to make it sound like it is being done right

          Blind copy squeeze pages are designed to get as many email addresses as possible while hiding the details of the offer (usually a free report) behind a wall of curiosity.

          It's a trick.

          No different than clickbait headlines.

          Why do they hide the details of the offer behind a wall of curiosity?

          Because if you were told what was inside the report, you might not want it.

          But if you're given just enough to whet your whistle; let's say, a promise of earning $10k in 30 Days then it's a straight choice between leaving and getting nothing, or signing up, and possibly getting the key to a treasure chest.

          Even if you don't quite believe the claim, you have two powerful influencers to contend with now

          1. Curiosity.
          2. FOMO (fear of missing out).

          So, people sign up. The question is, are they signing up because they want to hear from you again, or just to satiate their curiosity?

          The biggest problem with blind squeeze pages, is that you have to wait until AFTER you get a person's email address, to engage them.

          That may be too late.

          In my opinion, it's better to engage people BEFORE they sign up. At least then you can set the expectations yourself. With a blind squeeze page, the expectations have already been set from previous experiences when that person signed up on a blind squeeze page in the past. And those expectations are likely to be very low.

          Sure, engaging people BEFORE you ask them for their details means you won't get as many sign ups, but the quality of the sign ups you do get, will be far greater.

          Quality           vs Quantity.

          The bottom line is, if you plan to build relationships with your subscribers, tricking them into signing up to your list may kill that relationship before it even begins.

          Most people build their lists, and then try to build trust in the emails. But if they aren't opening your emails, then you can't build trust.

          However, if you build trust BEFORE you get a persons email address, well then, now you stand a greater chance of getting your emails opened.

          There's more to this. Nothing happens in isolation. You'll find most people who use blind copy squeeze pages, are the same people who buy solo ads. They are also the same people who promote shifty JVzoo products.

          That's not a coincidence.

          As I said. There's more to this. It's all inside the seedy little world of the MMO bubble that's centered around solo ads, shifty JVzoo vendors, liars, cheats and tactical loophole addicts.
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          • Profile picture of the author Reddevil007
            Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

            Blind copy squeeze pages are designed to get as many email addresses as possible while hiding the details of the offer (usually a free report) behind a wall of curiosity.

            It's a trick.

            No different than clickbait headlines.

            Why do they hide the details of the offer behind a wall of curiosity?

            Because if you were told what was inside the report, you might not want it.

            But if you're given just enough to whet your whistle; let's say, a promise of earning $10k in 30 Days then it's a straight choice between leaving and getting nothing, or signing up, and possibly getting the key to a treasure chest.

            Even if you don't quite believe the claim, you have two powerful influencers to contend with now

            1. Curiosity.
            2. FOMO (fear of missing out).

            So, people sign up. The question is, are they signing up because they want to hear from you again, or just to satiate their curiosity?

            The biggest problem with blind squeeze pages, is that you have to wait until AFTER you get a person's email address, to engage them.

            That may be too late.

            In my opinion, it's better to engage people BEFORE they sign up. At least then you can set the expectations yourself. With a blind squeeze page, the expectations have already been set from previous experiences when that person signed up on a blind squeeze page in the past. And those expectations are likely to be very low.

            Sure, engaging people BEFORE you ask them for their details means you won't get as many sign ups, but the quality of the sign ups you do get, will be far greater.

            Quality             vs Quantity.

            The bottom line is, if you plan to build relationships with your subscribers, tricking them into signing up to your list may kill that relationship before it even begins.

            Most people build their lists, and then try to build trust in the emails. But if they aren't opening your emails, then you can't build trust.

            However, if you build trust BEFORE you get a persons email address, well then, now you stand a greater chance of getting your emails opened.

            There's more to this. Nothing happens in isolation. You'll find most people who use blind copy squeeze pages, are the same people who buy solo ads. They are also the same people who promote shifty JVzoo products.

            That's not a coincidence.

            As I said. There's more to this. It's all inside the seedy little world of the MMO bubble that's centered around solo ads, shifty JVzoo vendors, liars, cheats and tactical loophole addicts.
            One more "golden"
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          • Profile picture of the author savidge4
            Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

            Blind copy squeeze pages are designed to get as many email addresses as possible while hiding the details of the offer (usually a free report) behind a wall of curiosity.

            It's a trick.
            No different than clickbait headlines.
            Why do they hide the details of the offer behind a wall of curiosity?
            Because if you were told what was inside the report, you might not want it.
            Im not sure "Designed" is really the proper term to use here... Its monkey see, monkey do. Its not that people do it intentionally.. they do it because they don't know another way. To be honest, I am not sure they see it done any other way.

            WE look at things as a numbers game... here is what I am offering.. are you buying or not? BUT we also understand a whole lot more in the game of traffic than most when they are beginning. We can say "There is a difference between traffic and targeted traffic" all day long, but I don't think people truly understand that.

            they hardly understand traffic let alone targeted traffic. All they know is they have to get traffic across their offer to get e-mail address' to sell stuff. And sure that is in a nutshell how that works. But then they get the rude awakening that is NOT how it works - well works for them.. and then the cycle of "Its the Product" or "Its the Guru" ensues.

            I find it sad really... its really not that hard to succeed in online sales be it information or products or services... BUT there are few left here that actually know HOW to make it happen.. and as I read across this platform day in and day out, those that DO KNOW HOW this all works.. none of us create Information products.

            lets get real here I can spend the time to put together a product... build a website, fill it with content related to the offer and sell what 1000 copies of it for $29 over 6 months? - some people will read that and think WHAT THE F is this guy talking about that is a ton of money... and the truth... its a drop in the bucket. I simply do not have the time for that.. my time is spent with more lucrative ventures. ( I really dislike saying it like that, but its my truth )



            Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

            As I said. There's more to this. It's all inside the seedy little world of the MMO bubble that's centered around solo ads, shifty JVzoo vendors, liars, cheats and tactical loophole addicts.
            The bubble is a self fed monster.. people are selling product without ever buying it / reading it.. and creating an "Offer" that is by topic alone related and not getting anywhere. After a month or 2 they give that up and try another and another and another product.. and finally they read THAT post that says "Create your own Product"

            Now we have Authors of content that are meaningless because they are describing methods to make money.. BUT they have never made any. So basically they are re hashing Content they read from other failed authors and unfortunately there are greater amounts of Failed Authors than successful ones ( FAR GREATER ) - hence the bubble

            All of this because they simply don't know any better... and I am not sure you can "Blame" anyone.. or even pigeon hole any of them into vile creatons that are destroying an industry...

            When you look at the modern era of "Sales" you look at guys like Mr. Ford.. revolutionized manufacturing... HOW? he was on the line. Look at Elon Musk.. same story.. he literally is on his line most every day. Look at KFC.. day in and day out that man went door to door to sell his idea of cooking chicken. Look at Bill Gates or Steve Jobs... and what's in common with all of these folks? W O R K some might say RELENTLESS work, at that

            There simply is no such thing as a 4 hour work week... or workless riches... you want to get paid? you need to put in the work. You dont have to buy a damn thing to get the information and education needed to succeed in online sales.. there is so much information out there for free.

            Its honestly not hard to figure out what may work vs what wouldn't work... If you see that they are selling the concept.. it wont work... if you read the same concept over and over.. it probably wont work

            But the moment you identify the path you want to take.. and you find that person that is sharing their journey and its not filled with a bunch of hoopla and gimmicks but actually filled with solid hard work.. THEN its time to emulate - its not hard to find these people.
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            • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              Its monkey see, monkey do. Its not that people do it intentionally.. they do it because they don't know another way. To be honest, I am not sure they see it done any other way.

              They know exactly what they are doing. These aren't 12 year old kids. I too didn't know what I was doing when I started, but I didn't use that as an excuse to mislead people. They may justify it in their tiny little brains, but make no mistake about it, they know they are misleading people.

              Now, I'm sure there are decent folk who KNOW they are being misleading, and don't feel good about it. Mistakes can be made. They can even be forgiven. But to continue on that path regardless, is not to be excused. Because eventually what happens, is they stretch the truth (or lie) further and further to the point where misleading people has become second nature.

              Besides, it doesn't take much to change perspective. To go the other way. There are plenty of ethical ways to make money. And there are plenty of examples if these shysters WANT to look. Most of them (the ones I was talking about) don't want to look. They want the quickest way to the money. And if that means blurring the lines a little, they will do it. They do it.


              Originally Posted by savidge4 View Post

              All of this because they simply don't know any better... and I am not sure you can "Blame" anyone.. or even pigeon hole any of them into vile creations that are destroying an industry...

              But they do know better. They might not know how to fix their approach. But that doesn't mean they can't figure it out, if that's what they "wanted" to do. But they don't want to do it. It's much easier to trick people than it is to "learn" what's actually needed to add value to the marketplace.

              --------------------------------------------
              I agree with everything else you said.
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  • Profile picture of the author IGotMine
    What's your take on the "blind" squeeze pages people use to build their lists?
    A product of the solo ad "generation?"

    Getting the opt-in is the important thing, then send them directly to an affiliate sales page and not a thought to follow-up because your emails will go directly to spam anyway.

    I opt-in to a lot of squeeze pages. I probably average 10-12 a day. It's kind of a hobby. I want to see where they go and what they're up to. About 75% never mention the initial claim again. Around 95 - 97% of the follow-ups go straight to my spam folder. Virtually none of them use a bridge page explaining who they are, what I can expect, or asking me to whitelist, etc.

    It's like the direct linking from Adwords days. Use an outrageous claim to get them to look at your affiliate offer, move on to the next one.

    The bright spot is, they are no kind of competition.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Sarlo
    A opted in to get a lot of useful lead magnets. So certainly there are a lot of good marketers offering value.

    The ones that offer vague lead magnets e.g. "make a ton of money while you sleep" are probably newbies who chose the 'make money online' as their niche. There's nothing wrong with that, if you don't like the offer don't optin
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    • Profile picture of the author codyhay
      Originally Posted by Jack Sarlo View Post

      A opted in to get a lot of useful lead magnets. So certainly there are a lot of good marketers offering value.

      The ones that offer vague lead magnets e.g. "make a ton of money while you sleep" are probably newbies who chose the 'make money online' as their niche. There's nothing wrong with that, if you don't like the offer don't optin
      And that's the truth out there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Virginia Sanders
    It is a terrible situation online because greed has taken over. After you give them your name...All you get is offer after offer, never get any real value or information or how to's. the worst part is most of the BS that these marketers are offering is stagnant ineffective outdated crap that does not work as promised ???solutions that take more work to make them work than what they indicated.

    I am a software buyer and love the idea of software making life easier... However our fair weather friends who supposedly create and sell this BS to us are actual liars/// then they get angry when the customer asks for a refund.
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by IGotMine View Post

      A product of the solo ad "generation?"

      The bright spot is, they are no kind of competition.

      Yep, a product of the solo ad generation.

      Never take advice about list building from a solo ad seller unless you plan to sell solo ads, eh?

      And yeah, you're right about being irrelevant competition.


      Originally Posted by Jack Sarlo View Post


      The ones that offer vague lead magnets e.g. "make a ton of money while you sleep" are probably newbies who chose the 'make money online' as their niche. There's nothing wrong with that, if you don't like the offer don't optin
      There is something wrong with it if you plan to build lists with the intention of building relationships with your subscribers.

      When our expectations are greater than the outcome, we become more and more skeptical.


      Originally Posted by Virginia Sanders View Post


      I am a software buyer and love the idea of software making life easier... However our fair weather friends who supposedly create and sell this BS to us are actual liars/// then they get angry when the customer asks for a refund.
      Technology has given cheaters a tool to distort reality. To make the unreal look real.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    . These aren't 12 year old kids. I too didn't know what I was doing when I started, but I didn't use that as an excuse to mislead people. They may justify it in their tiny little brains, but make no mistake about it, they know they are misleading people.

    You might be surprised at who is sending the emails. ABout 10 years ago I bought a WSO because I was curious about the WF member who posted it. The 'ebook' had a cover page of a kid sitting on an unmade bed. Turns out that was the 'author' - he had just turned 13. That's when this forum added an age limit.


    You are right that people 'justify' what they do. The most vociferous arguments on this forum are in threads that mention 'ethics'. For many people, ethics are flexible....it's easy to justify doing 'this' because it 'makes money'. It's OK to bend/break the 'rules' because 'everyone does it'.



    It's easy to criticize someone else for their 'lack of ethics' but that's often self serving. Different societies have different standards - what is 'unethical' to one person is 'smart business' to another. If you are uncomfortable with how a marketer presents himself in emails - opt out. You can't control what others do but you can control who you associate with.
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      You might be surprised at who is sending the emails. ABout 10 years ago I bought a WSO because I was curious about the WF member who posted it. The 'ebook' had a cover page of a kid sitting on an unmade bed. Turns out that was the 'author' - he had just turned 13. That's when this forum added an age limit.
      I wouldn't be surprised. That's funny though. The point I made about them not being kids, still stands.

      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      It's easy to criticize someone else for their 'lack of ethics' but that's often self serving. Different societies have different standards - what is 'unethical' to one person is 'smart business' to another.
      Yeah. It is easy to criticize someone for their lack of ethics. And so it should be. You don't get a pass because you're ethics are dyed in a different colour based on your societies standards. That's another justification to suit your end goal, which in this case (context) is about lying to 'strangers', to get their money.

      But it's okay. You know, as long as it's not your Mother or Father or Brother or Sister or Partner or Friend that isn't being shafted, well then, that's just fine and dandy, isn't it?

      Smart business, some would say, eh?


      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      If you are uncomfortable with how a marketer presents himself in emails - opt out. You can't control what others do but you can control who you associate with.
      Who said I was uncomfortable? Looks like you completely missed the point of this thread.
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  • Profile picture of the author Kay King
    Started to explain better - but decided this thread is a bit like some of the "how to SEO" stuff....best way to approach it is with Wild Turkey American Honey on the rocks...



    Provides a better perspective...
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      Started to explain better - but decided this thread is a bit like some of the "how to SEO" stuff....best way to approach it is with Wild Turkey American Honey on the rocks...

      Provides a better perspective...
      This is the email marketing section. The topic is about tricking people onto your email lists, which guarantees you lose credibility and trust BEFORE someone even joins your list. It's a very important topic for the main demographic of this very forum.

      How many people talk about engaging their subscribers? How many talk about getting their emails opened? How to write subject lines, or "should" we give away more free stuff to generate goodwill?

      A lot of those problems could be fixed if they didn't use blind copy squeeze pages and took the time to engage people BEFORE asking for their email addresses.

      It's an important topic.
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  • Profile picture of the author wrcato2
    Declan, I was taught that a squeeze page is suppose to be a one page optin or leave that fit on the screen. All you have is the headline, subhead, the form and possibly a promise not to spam the crap out of people. Plus with the mobile revelation that screen is now a whole lot smaller. What more can you add to create an optins confidence in you, your product or brand?
    What is your solution?
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    • Profile picture of the author Reddevil007
      Originally Posted by wrcato2 View Post

      Declan, I was taught that a squeeze page is suppose to be a one page optin or leave that fit on the screen. All you have is the headline, subhead, the form and possibly a promise not to spam the crap out of people. Plus with the mobile revelation that screen is now a whole lot smaller. What more can you add to create an optins confidence in you, your product or brand?
      What is your solution?

      Interested in knowing this too from Declan
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by wrcato2 View Post

      Declan, I was taught that a squeeze page is suppose to be a one page optin or leave that fit on the screen. All you have is the headline, subhead, the form and possibly a promise not to spam the crap out of people.

      It's all about "trust" right?

      Is the money in the list?

      That's what many have been told for years. The money is in the list. So people went out, built their lists, and found out that the money wasn't in the list after all.

      It was in the 'relationship' you had with the people on the list.

      How many people have built lists, and then go to forums asking for advice on how to get their emails opened, or how to build trust with their subscribers?

      It's a bit like punching yourself in the face and then going to forums asking people how to cover up a black eye.

      Just stop punching yourself in the face.

      Fix the damn problem at the source.

      Most email lists are shit because they have been built using the very same tactics employed by shifty con artists.

      What are the expectations of someone who signs up on yet another short squeeze page for another report promising another life changing tactic?

      Of course, they expect very little because that's precisely what they have gotten when they have signed up on similar pages in the past.

      Imagine you had a course worth $1000 and you gave it away for free. Do you think the people who you gave it to will value it in the same way as if they paid for it?

      Not a chance, right?

      People don't expect to get value from free stuff. So they don't get value from it.

      We tend to get what we expect.

      The question is, what are the expectations of the person who signs up for another free report on anther short squeeze page making anther bold claim?

      Practically zero expectations, right?

      Why would they expect to get anything better than what hasn't already worked for them in the past... when they were made similar promises?

      Sure, they'll sign up out of curiosity. But don't let that fool you. People have hard drives chocked full of free reports they have skimmed through and discarded almost immediately.

      The point here is to distance yourself from the very things that people have been turned off by in the past.

      If your offer is really that great. Why would you hide it behind a wall of curiosity?

      If you want to build a relationship with your subscribers, why would you ask them to commit to you before giving them value?

      If you want people to open your emails ahead of the other 80 they get inside their cluttered inbox every day, why would you present yourself and your business in a way that makes them skeptical?

      By the way: This only makes sense if your goal is to actually help people, and not just shove shitty products down their throats that you have never used, or even care whether or not they are any good.
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  • Profile picture of the author ryanbiddulph
    Fear Declan, it's just fear. IMers want to build a business from a hear-centered, genuine energy. Hence the focus on humanizing, and moving away from numbers, at first. But fear kicks in when the profits seem to be flagging, and versus NOT trusting the fear and NOT panicking, these folks trust fear, and the silly squeeze page stuff begins, along with inflated claims. Everything I claim - retiring to a life of island hopping through smart blogging - I have done, AND I remind people all the time that 20,000 to 30,000 hours of generous service went into this success. I tell folks again and again; you can live your dreams and WILL live your dreams but the journey will be fun, freeing, terrifying, it'll make you squirm, go mad at times....then, it feels so good when you become a pro the right way, being genuine, honest and generous.

    Ryan
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  • Profile picture of the author King Manu
    This is a gem with a lot of good information in it. I'll try to give my input.

    I think the main problem with some marketers is that they forgot why they do what they do.

    Many think that their purpose is to make money. Wrong.

    Your purpose is to serve your visitors. You are there to make their life better in some way.

    The better you are at serving your visitors, the more money you can make.

    I understand that you need to know how to reap the harvest (making money from serving your audience), but it's more important and even harder to sow (serve your audience).

    So many focus on reaping without knowing how to sow. That's where the fake marketers emerge.

    When you focus on the right things everything changes.

    This simple mindset is enough to make you see what you need to make to be successful with your marketing efforts. Building a list because it "works" is stupid. Yes, following a recipe just because someone else did it is stupid if you don't follow the intent.

    You should build a list only if it works for your visitors and your process of serving them.

    No matter what "magical" formula you come across, if everything you care about is your bank account, you won't make that much money.

    I never used a list building before, simply because it didn't make sense for my audience, and I had no problems making money. That doesn't mean I won't use this technique in the future if it fits my purpose.

    But I never made money by not serving my audience.

    And regarding those that try to sell me the magic bullet, I click on their ads so I can waste their money, then I block their fairy dust selling ads.
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  • Profile picture of the author wrcato2
    Well I have to agree with you IMHO


    MOst marketers are following the direct marketing approach when it comes to their lists. In DM the product creator or marketer would rent a list of prospects from a list provider which most on the list came from relevant magazines subscriptions.
    For the last 20 years marketers followed this example. Instead of renting lists they created their own list. People interested in a certain niche and got a report or visited a website and joined a list. The loss leader didn't even come into effect until about 2005.

    The reason for a loss leader is to share valuable information for a name and email address.
    Today, you pretty much have to bribe people with courses in order to get just an email address.



    Why is this?
    Over marketing. Spammers as you call it have flooded the inbox. How do you get visitors to sign up to your list today?



    You still need a good squeeze page landing page, or a blog with a $20 month AR. You can't build a relationship from this kind of marketing. You offer a loss leader, this is your first exposure, if the subscriber likes the content they will be with you until YOU break their trust.

    Does Email Marketing still work Today?

    I believe it still does. Look at all of the eCommerce sites. They all that I have seen anyway use email marketing. You sign up and most give you a coupon.

    How about Ezines? (not solo ads)

    As far as I can tell the ones that are still around are still in business. Think talkbiz.

    Okay, now I got that off my chest, Declan, you still haven't offered another solution to the problem.
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by wrcato2 View Post

      Declan, you still haven't offered another solution to the problem.

      The solution is to think about the experience your subscribers go through to get onto your list.

      Walk yourself through the process and ask yourself if that experience is likely to get people to want to follow you and open your emails; to ignore everyone else and pay attention to you?

      What are their expectations likely to be, based on previous experiences, and have you done enough to distance yourself from the tripe that has turned them off in the past?

      Are you offering up the same as everyone else? Are you a commodity inside their inbox?

      If your emails aren't being opened, then it's too late to engage them. In that case, would it be a better approach to engage them first, while you have their attention, and then continue the engagement AFTER you have asked for their email address?

      What can you do to ensure people have a different experience than what hasn't worked for them already?

      Most people think the value is in the free report they are giving in exchange for an email address. That's silly. Free reports are worthless for the most part. Even if the free report is great, it's still just incrementally better than what someone else has already given them.

      That's the logic. I give you a free report You give me your email address. And then you open my emails because I gave you a valuable gift.

      Crazy.

      At the very least, if the report is really valuable, then wouldn't it make more sense to give people the value first, and then ask them to sign up? At least then you have demonstrated you can give value, rather than merely claiming you can do it later on.

      If more people walked themselves through their own list building process, and asked themselves if the experience is one that would make them want to open their emails, they would change it all in a heartbeat. Because that's the biggest problem with people online. They market in the exact way that they themselves would run a mile from.
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      • Profile picture of the author Marian
        Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

        The solution is to think about the experience your subscribers go through to get onto your list.

        Walk yourself through the process and ask yourself if that experience is likely to get people to want to follow you and open your emails; to ignore everyone else and pay attention to you?

        What are their expectations likely to be, based on previous experiences, and have you done enough to distance yourself from the tripe that has turned them off in the past?

        Are you offering up the same as everyone else? Are you a commodity inside their inbox?

        If your emails aren't being opened, then it's too late to engage them. In that case, would it be a better approach to engage them first, while you have their attention, and then continue the engagement AFTER you have asked for their email address?

        What can you do to ensure people have a different experience than what hasn't worked for them already?

        Most people think the value is in the free report they are giving in exchange for an email address. That's silly. Free reports are worthless for the most part. Even if the free report is great, it's still just incrementally better than what someone else has already given them.

        That's the logic. I give you a free report You give me your email address. And then you open my emails because I gave you a valuable gift.

        Crazy.

        At the very least, if the report is really valuable, then wouldn't it make more sense to give people the value first, and then ask them to sign up? At least then you have demonstrated you can give value, rather than merely claiming you can do it later on.

        If more people walked themselves through their own list building process, and asked themselves if the experience is one that would make them want to open their emails, they would change it all in a heartbeat. Because that's the biggest problem with people online. They market in the exact way that they themselves would run a mile from.
        This is a great theory, and I agree. But from what I see, most of the times it works differently.

        I see lots of successful marketers offer freebie and then bombard their list with paid offers.. almost every other day. And they're on top of W+ or JVZoo.

        Marian
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        • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
          Originally Posted by Marian View Post

          This is a great theory, and I agree. But from what I see, most of the times it works differently.

          I see lots of successful marketers offer freebie and then bombard their list with paid offers.. almost every other day. And they're on top of W+ or JVZoo.

          Marian

          You mean successful 'con artists'?

          Now, what do you mean when you say they are on top of JVzoo? Are they the 'vendors'? If so, they make their money from affiliates, not from their own list. Although, the large list will make them money no matter how worthless it is.

          That's the thing. If people feel comfortable bombarding their list with shitty JVzoo products, then that's what they do. They clearly are in it for the money and don't give a shit about ripping people off by sending them to products they haven't used themselves.

          It's true. Con artists make money too.

          And since not everyone can be at the top of JVzoo, it's a pretty shoddy way to approach creating a business. I mean, if you can't get to the top that way, you are essentially a con artist who makes no money and have no chance of building a loyal following.

          There's no theory in what I'm saying.

          The question is: How many people are struggling because they are doing it the way you said? And how many of those very people would have a better chance of success if they got serious about their business and stopped peddling junk to people?

          How many people have worthless email lists because they trick people? How many make crappy $17 commissions on products they promote because their subscribers, who they attracted in a slimy way, only buy cheap products?

          How many make repeat sales from the people on their list who they send to JVzoo products all day, every day?

          They may get repeat sales, but it's not going to be from the same people.

          It's true. people are making money by bombarding their crappy lists with crappy products, but you can't tell me it's a smart way to go about it for most people.

          Another thing. There's also something to be said for being a decent human being and taking pride in your work. I doubt there are many people right now, who build lists to shove crappy products down their subscribers throats, who actually take pride in their work.

          But look. I'm biased here anyway. There are no one-sided coins. Some folk want to help people. Other just want to get their money regardless of whether they are helped.


          You just need to ask who is struggling the most online.

          Is it the people who build lists of people who trust them, or people who build lists to shove cheap products down their subscribers throats?

          By the way, I'm not pointing this comment at you personally, Marian. I get your point, and it's valid to a degree. Just not the way people should be taught about creating an online business. It's a cesspool full of con artists, hype merchants and people who would sell their granny for $7.


          Have a good one mate.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
    Originally Posted by wrcato2

    Declan, I was taught that a squeeze page is suppose to be a one page optin or leave that fit on the screen. All you have is the headline, subhead, the form and possibly a promise not to spam the crap out of people.

    I add a bulleted list of benefits.



    Originally Posted by wrcato2

    Declan, you still haven't offered another solution to the problem

    Transparency. In my little world I believe in being completely transparent with subscribers and customers.

    The squeeze page "benefits" are 100% transparent and there is "No Optin Form" and "No Free Report".


    The squeeze page entails a simple WordPress login form to a free membership site. In the membership site everything is free unless the prospective customer decides to buy a premium membership. At that time they are automatically subscribed to my list.


    That solves the problem of hyped up free reports because there is no hype and no free reports. Tire kickers are never add to my list because they can frolic around the free content all they want and that free content is as close to paid content as it can be without paying a cent.


    So my method of madness is to be open and honest with anyone and everyone rather they be a free or paid member. Why go to the trouble of creating and promoting free reports, why go to the trouble of segregating free and paid lists.


    In the end the customer gets what they want and I get conversions.


    Just a happy little family.
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  • Profile picture of the author asquare123
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by asquare123 View Post

      i think it is better to build a relationship with the subscriber.

      That's the point of the thread. In that you can't trick people on a squeeze page with a "hype" headline and then expect to build a relationship once you get their email address.

      In fact, it's just common sense if you want to build relationships, you should be transparent and forthcoming BEFORE you ask for the persons email address. Especially in 2020 when almost all sleazy marketers use "blind" copy to trick people onto their email lists.

      The thing with common sense, and marketers, is that very few of 'em have any.
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  • Profile picture of the author TobiMDD
    I guess one of the biggest problems is that the expectations are driven in a completely wrong direction..
    people who are new to the make money online niche always read about how fast and easy it is to make money and how rich some people get by putting in a few hours every day..


    so they are more likely to click and connect with such claims on pages because they start believing the hype..


    and that's what those liars and fake gurus use to their advantage , play with the wrong expectations/ feelings and desires of people because it simply works



    whereas when you send people to a page beeing honest and telling them that it takes time and money to start and grow a successful business online, they seem to convert not as good ..
    its sad but this is how the hype destroyed the internet marketing world
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    • Profile picture of the author Declan O Flaherty
      Originally Posted by TobiMDD View Post

      its sad but this is how the hype destroyed the internet marketing world

      Hype can be a good thing. It can work in your favour if you use it to go against type.

      You could walk into a room of 100 people, with 99 of them standing up, wailing about, shouting hype from the top of their lungs, and yet, the person who gets the most attention is the one quietly sitting in the corner, with their head down. Your brain wants to know why that person is acting differently.

      Thank god for the hype artists. It makes my job of getting attention so much easier.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeffery
      Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

      <snip>....best way to approach it is with Wild Turkey American Honey on the rocks...

      Provides a better perspective...

      Wild Turkey is my favorite though I haven't tried it with honey. I'm Buying.


      Originally Posted by TobiMDD View Post

      I guess one of the biggest problems is that the expectations are driven in a completely wrong direction..
      people who are new to the make money online niche always read about how fast and easy it is to make money and how rich some people get by putting in a few hours every day..

      so they are more likely to click and connect with such claims on pages because they start believing the hype..

      and that's what those liars and fake gurus use to their advantage , play with the wrong expectations/ feelings and desires of people because it simply works

      whereas when you send people to a page beeing honest and telling them that it takes time and money to start and grow a successful business online, they seem to convert not as good ..
      its sad but this is how the hype destroyed the internet marketing world

      I agree with most of what you stated.


      Personally. I don't think hype killed the internet marketing world. Not at all.


      The internet marketing world is not destroyed.


      Certainly not dead.


      I will agree that the internet marketing world has been and will continue to be "tarnished" by the hype that some marketers peddle.


      When the customers of the Hype Peddlers eventually figure out that the hype is nothing more than false claims they eventually seek out Honest Peddlers aka Honest Marketers.


      Those same customers eventually find more than a few Honest Marketers and may also see minimal hype, yet it is honest hype and they learn to practice Caveat Emptor: "Let The Buyer Beware" - Due Diligence.


      For example, I once ran a WSO with minimal honest hype for a product that I created myself.


      On the very first day of the WSO a Warrior Forum member contacted me, said she bought the product and the copy was not hyped up enough and from her experience I could make more sales if I upped the honest hype.


      After a month the sales started to settle down and she contacted me again with an offer to buy my product outright. Long story short I sold it to her outright.


      For legal reasons, she had her code guy add one minor feature, relabel it and sold it as a WSO for almost twice the price I had sold it for - and she hyped up the copy big time. No false claims, no promises of any kind - just a lot of honest hype.


      She made a little more than 3 times my own sales in one month!


      Also, neither of us had any refund requests though we both offered a 30 day money back guarantee with no questions asked.


      I agree with you and get what you are saying about scam artists, per se, yet based on my own experience I cannot agree that "hype killed the internet marketing world" because that is a blanket statement that covers the entire internet marketing world.


      My point is there is scammy hype from Scam Marketers and there is honest hype from Honest Marketers.


      Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

      Hype can be a good thing. It can work in your favour if you use it to against type.

      You could walk into a room of 100 people, with 99 of them standing up, wailing about, shouting hype from the top of their lungs, and yet, the person who gets the most attention is the one quietly sitting in the corner, with their head down. Your brain wants to know why that person is acting differently.

      Thank god for the hype artists. It makes my job of getting attention so much easier.

      Yepper, hit the nail on the head.


      Originally Posted by Declan O Flaherty View Post

      You could walk into a room of 100 people, with 99 of them standing up, wailing about, shouting hype from the top of their lungs, and yet, the person who gets the most attention is the one quietly sitting in the corner, with their head down. Your brain wants to know why that person is acting differently.

      Kind of reminds me how I met my first wife
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  • Profile picture of the author ADBman
    We live in a world with eroding ethics, little or no morality, lots of propaganda and abundant lies. So, yes, hypocrisy abounds.
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    • Profile picture of the author depotgang
      Originally Posted by ADBman View Post

      We live in a world with eroding ethics, little or no morality, lots of propaganda and abundant lies. So, yes, hypocrisy abounds.
      Bingo!

      The list members are not loyal like in 2008, they are on 40 people's list...so

      The trust thing is meaningless...it was nice 12 years ago...but now days I filter list members and process them without any emotion. None what so ever....

      I added 500,000+ leads a year to my list....I process them...it's a numbers game...oh I won't sell chess spammy biz ops but otherwise....they are numbers in my data base.

      No bull here. ... if you don't like or open my emails after 30 days I purge you.
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    • Profile picture of the author ProducerK
      Originally Posted by ADBman View Post

      We live in a world with eroding ethics, little or no morality, lots of propaganda and abundant lies. So, yes, hypocrisy abounds.
      I think there are crappy people in every industry.

      There are plenty of ethical people in the email marketing industry who are still making millions of dollars per year.

      I don't think crappy people are just in the email marketing industry.
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  • Profile picture of the author AdmanMrWoo
    Some dude just recently bitched at me on linkedin for sending him "spam"... he self-righteously was annoyed at my "pitch"... he said I should do more research on the linkedin profiles before I go a pitching about... Well... THAT IS GOOD ADVICE... and... get this... IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THAT AMOUNT OF RESEARCH BEFORE YOU PITCH YOUR PRODUCT OR SERVICE, YOU HAD BETTER JACK UP YOUR DAMN PRICES SO THAT YOU CAN AFFORD THE TIME IT TAKES TO WIN THE DEAL.
    Back years ago, before I retired, and back when I was a serious player in the business world, I would charge $15,000 or more to create a marketing package, so this complaining dude would not have been able to afford me as his market universe and profit margins are too small.
    Now that I'm so-called "retired" I don't charge those high prices for creative. And I don't care to chase business like I use to. I went on linkedin to throw barbs at "personal development" crowd with their pithy quotes and Ted Talks, and their Ten Tips for Ten Days, and all those annoying Yakkity Yak selfie videos.
    Sure it's good advice to not send so-called "spam" but every thing is spam. Those "me, me, me" videos on linkedin are essentially spam. Have you ever watched any of them. It's like reading the diary of a 14-year old girl.
    My point here is really about PROFIT MARGINS. If you raise your prices you actually do a better job at marketing, target marketing, presentation, persuasion. If your profit margins are small, you must do more of a shot gun blast, not a sniper rifle approach. And thus, squeeze pages are mostly lazy, as they are all selling stuff without much margin.
    SOLUTION: Go ahead and raise your prices to the point where you no longer want to "pitch-spam" those who obviously can't afford your product/service. Or keep your prices low and enjoy the ride.
    ONE MORE THING: One of the first things I learn in business was this: IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU'RE DOING, RAISE THE PRICE UNTIL YOU DO LIKE IT. 



    Also note: If you raise your prices, you'll tend to justify the price, thus your squeeze page will be more revealing, so as to keep the tire-kickers from signing up.

    Just thinking,

    Linwood

    

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  • Profile picture of the author Kylie Taylor
    Totally right, tricking you to a free day trial just click the subscription button, in the end, they will offer the service or product with price and no free trial in addition to that your email is already on their list. The fish took the bait.
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  • Profile picture of the author AndyBlackSEO
    I've never been big on blind copy myself. I always prefer to go the "exactly what it says on the tin" route with my pages and offers.
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