Did You Buy Profit Loophole? What are Your Thoughts?

51 replies
Hi all,

Just looking for some feeback on profit loophole by Chris Rempel and Dave Kelly.

I have done a search on the forum and nobody seems to have given any feedback about this particular product yet.

Now I have read posts about authority loophole and I have read plenty of opinions about Chris and Dave's MSN stuff which didn't go down very well here.

However, I am interested to actually hear what someone who has actually bought it things of profit loophole. The logic doesn't seem sound in being able to sell a site for good money that is not very old and that isn't making much money, just because it fits the buyers criteria. Surely it would be much cheaper for the buyer to just outsource the creation of these sites himself so that they fit the criteria.

However, I am open minded since I like Chris's blog and I like all of the reports he does. I also like Dave's linkvana.

Hence, why I was wondered if anyone who actually has bought the product is willing to just give a brief review. What is it really all about and is it worth the money, or did you get a refund?


Cheers

Carlton
#buy #loophole #profit #thoughts
  • Profile picture of the author Akogo
    Basically the plan is to create five sites every month and let them develop traffic and revenue over four or five months. You sell the first set of five sites (preferably in bulk) to the well known sites for auctioning them off. Then when the next set of five mature, you sell those also. Rinse and repeat. Dave goes into a few selling tips and goes into how he prices his sites. You can sell sites individually, but he believes you get a better price if you sell in bulk. Why wait four or five months? He wants to provide buyers 60 to 90 days of traffic and revenue results and he doesn't monetize his sites until after a few weeks of being indexed.

    The logic doesn't seem sound in being able to sell a site for good money that is not very old and that isn't making much money, just because it fits the buyers criteria.
    According to Dave, especially for people who crank out sites like in the hundreds or thousands, keeping up with them becomes difficult and consequently traffic and revenue diminish. So selling them while they are hot is the best time to get the most in a sale.

    Surely it would be much cheaper for the buyer to just outsource the creation of these sites himself so that they fit the criteria.
    If they buy your site, you are the one they outsourced to. Maybe these customer never thought of outsourcing. Or perhaps they plan to further develop the site and sell for a higher price. Whatever, you did the dirty work for them... they didn't risk on a niche idea that didn't work out.

    Here's what's left out... On the surface, the sites he build are simple plain static html sites but with good content. I wish he had some WordPress examples. Then it would be helpful if he went into a little more detail in the transfer process after the sale, like how we move everything over to the buyer's hosting account. Although his ideas about outsourcing work to retired and the disabled Americans are honorable, I was disappointed he didn't go further which means don't expect to find a secret source of dirt cheap workers.

    This course is best for those who already know how to build a website. He makes it clear there are no short cuts and its going to be a lot of work if you do it all yourself. There's nothing BlueFart about it.

    I'm not going to ask for a refund because overall I think it's a good course, but I can't figure out why they always have to use "loophole" whenever they name their new products.

    When I have more time, I plan on writing a more complete review and post it on my site.
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    • Profile picture of the author RoyChan
      Originally Posted by Akogo View Post

      "loophole"
      Implies some sort of "secrets" - when you now think of loophole, you would think of Dave and Chris.

      That's called branding.
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      • Profile picture of the author Carlton Johnson
        Akogo, Thanks, that's the sort of info I was looking for.

        I still feel as though it doesn't make logical sense though. Even though you tried to answer my questions with the way that Dave thinks and puts things, it still doesn't quite ring true.

        As I mentioned, I still don't understand why these buyers don't just outsource things themselves. Dave makes it sound like he has sold several sites that only have a few pages of content and some back links, for several hundred or even thousand dollars.

        Now, from where I am sitting if these buyers are savvy, then they would have realized a long time ago that they could outsource this website creation for maybe a couple of hundred dollars all in rather than paying one thousand dollars plus on a consistent basis. But maybe I am looking at things from my perspective, who knows, but I need to see more proof before I believe these sorts of claims.

        So as regards to me being the one that they have outsourced the work to, it just doesn't fit. Now, if the truth is that in reality on average you were going to only be able to sell these sites for say $100 -$400 dollars, especially if they are hardly making any money, then I might think - Hmm, that might make sense.

        But as it is, this still doesn't ring true to me. I want it to be true, but I have my doubts.

        I know of several people that make thousands a month from adsense and selling sites, but there's is a traditional model and the site is only worth the standard multiples of how much you earn per month X whatever the standard multiple is (I don't know what the multiple is because I don't currently sell sites I hold on to them).

        Dave makes it sound like he has a secret way of doing things. But nothing I have read so far has convinced me. I think I will keep my money in my pocket with this one.

        Thanks again for the review Akogo, it has helped.
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        • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
          Carlton,

          There are tons of people that would prefer to just buy something than to do it themselves.

          Also, I understand that people are looking for feedback, but laying all the details out here isn't exactly fair to Chris and Dave.
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          • Profile picture of the author Carlton Johnson
            Hi Jeremy,

            Your right in that laying out the details here isn't fair, although I don't actually think to much has been given away. And I actually outsource lots of work myself. But I find the cheapest way to outsource for quality results.

            It just doesn't make sense to pay many times over the odds for something you could get done just as well for cheaper. But I am very open to being convinced, it's just that nobody has convinced me yet. It could be that they are selling to people that aren't Internet savvy and don't want to be they would rather just pay for someone else to do it and remain ignorant in this area otherwise they would have to start managing outsourcers etc. if this is the case it makes more sense.

            But, I will leave it at that. I do love Chris's reports and some of Dave's other stuff. It's always difficult because obviously they don't want to tell you the exact steps to take in the sales letter because then you wouldn't need to buy the product, but sometimes I think a little more info is needed to make an informed decision.

            Anyway, I will leave it at that. This may be a fantastic product. I was hoping it was, and I don't want to stop anyone else taking a punt on it, because it might just work for them.
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  • Profile picture of the author homebse
    Carlton,

    I think that a lot of people would rather purchase a site that is a proven money maker than to spend time and money building a site themselves or, outsourcing the development of a site, just to find out if that niche is going to be profitable. In addition, if you develop a site (or outsource) you have to build traffic to that site or outsource the expense of that also.

    A lot of people would prefer to manage a business than get very involved with the nitty gritty of that business.

    Hope this gives you a little different perspective.

    I found Profit Loophole to be very well documented. However, I too would like to have seen a little bit more detail on the steps required to turn over a site and its traffic to the new owner.
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    • Profile picture of the author Liz Morgan
      I too have been looking at PL, but am similarly doubting the sales price claims made. There has to be more evidence that they can actually be sold for $1K+ despite making minimal or no revenue as indicated in the sales letter. And I'd expect at least a $1K price tag per site considering that's the entire revenue generated by the site, as well as, the time commitment involved.

      The prospect of spending 20+ hours a week for 4 - 6 months without any solid evidence that the time investment will yield the desired return (if any at all) is a significant drawback. Dave's screenshots were from 2007 as well, which is light years in the IM arena.

      By no means am I saying it can't or won't work, I'm just saying prospective buyers need more evidence of the sales price claims in advance of committing that kind of $$ investment, but much more importantly, time investment. Yes, even this is less time commitment than most other business models, but there are a lot of other opportunities where cash in hand comes much quicker.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
        Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

        I'd expect at least a $1K price tag per site considering that's the entire revenue generated by the site, as well as, the time commitment involved.
        Liz... it's very common for a site to sell for 5-10 times it's monthly income, so a selling price of $1,000 would be possible from a site that earns $100-$200 per month.

        Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

        The prospect of spending 20+ hours a week for 4 - 6 months without any solid evidence that the time investment will yield the desired return (if any at all) is a significant drawback. Dave's screenshots were from 2007 as well, which is light years in the IM arena.
        Dave provides an explanation for the date of the screenshots in the sales letter.



        Jason
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        • Profile picture of the author Liz Morgan
          Originally Posted by Jason Dolman View Post

          Liz... it's very common for a site to sell for 5-10 times it's monthly income, so a selling price of $1,000 would be possible from a site that earns $100-$200 per month.

          Jason
          I'm aware of that, but I'll say it again - the whole premise or value of the product is that it doesn't need to be a revenue generating site. Secondly, the target audience for the product is not people who have the ability to generate revenue through a site - it's newbies who haven't be able to do that. Lastly, another strong point the sales letter makes is that managing volumes of revenue generating sites is not as lucrative as selling them off since the revenue inevitably fades away the more sites you have. You seem to be familiar with the sales page, so you should have seen the rather heavy emphasis on those points.

          Again, I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying there needs to be more evidence it actually can considering the bold sales price claims of non revenue generating sites. And most importantly the significant time investment involved before seeing any hint of success or a return on efforts.

          Maybe the pending FAQ page on the site will clear some of this up, who knows...
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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            • Profile picture of the author Liz Morgan
              Nothing that's not on the sales page is here, we're just debating the possibility of it's claims.
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              • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
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                • Profile picture of the author Carlton Johnson
                  Hi all,

                  I don't want re-ignite this thread but thanks for everyone for contributing to this thread. I am glad there was some healthy debate and I am glad that people's fears of everything about Dave and Chris's product being revealed, have not come to pass.

                  I am not a newbie, and I just wanted a bit of clarification, and this thread has helped.

                  The truth is that I have a lot of time for Chris and Dave since their methods and products have helped me a lot in the past and continue to do so. (In fact Chris is one of my favourite online marketers and Dave's linkvana is priceless to me)

                  I might still try this one in the future, after I finish my current projects, since I want to add site flipping to my methods of making money online.

                  I have no doubt as to Dave's expertise in this area. My only doubts where whether things are spelt out in a way that is easily repeatable and will continue to be sustainable in the long run.
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          • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
            Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

            I'm aware of that, but I'll say it again - the whole premise or value of the product is that it doesn't need to be a revenue generating site.
            Can't say I've read every single word on the sales page, but the only reference I see of a non-income generating site that sold for good money is the one Dave says sold for $5K because the buyer was looking for a site in the niche with content already indexed.

            To me... that's more right place, right time then something I'd expect to happen time and time again. I think you're taking this one example (or a few others I may have missed) and running with it rather than the many examples of income-earning sites that were sold.

            Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

            Secondly, the target audience for the product is not people who have the ability to generate revenue through a site - it's newbies who haven't be able to do that.
            Please allow me to be blunt for a moment (not towards you in particular but to the mindset you express in the above statement)...

            Mike Filsaime was a newbie... so was John Reese... Frank Kern... you name 'em.

            Just because you haven't been able to do something yet doesn't mean you can't do it.

            If someone is seriously considering this model of making money online, they will have to either learn the skills needed to build and promote the sites they create or have enough cash flow to outsource it.

            Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

            Lastly, another strong point the sales letter makes is that managing volumes of revenue generating sites is not as lucrative as selling them off since the revenue inevitably fades away the more sites you have.
            The point is -- in order to sustain the level of income and traffic the site receives, you will need to continue to promote and market the site, a task that requires time, effort, and possibly money.

            Rather than putting that time, effort, and money into continually promoting an existing site, Dave has found it more profitable to sell the site for a one-time lump sum and put the energy into building another site he'll eventually sell as well.

            Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

            Again, I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just saying there needs to be more evidence it actually can considering the bold sales price claims of non revenue generating sites.
            Once again... correct me if I'm wrong, but I only see one example of a non-revenue generating site being sold for a substantial sum of money.

            Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

            And most importantly the significant time investment involved before seeing any hint of success or a return on efforts.
            You're kidding, right?

            Do you think the farmer just wishes his crop will flourish and buyers will come banging on his door to give him money for his happy thoughts?

            Do you think the real estate agent just puts a sign on the front lawn and hopes people will buy the house?

            I hate to break it to you, but unless you're putting all your eggs into winning the lottery or your rich grandma dying and leaving everything to you... you're going to have to put effort into your results.


            Jason
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            • Profile picture of the author Shawn Anderson
              I have had my hands on various drafts of the 'profit loophole' for months. Every revision got better and better.

              Two things: DON'T RUSH YOUR KW RESEARCH! I know thats IM101 here, but lesson learned.

              Second: This is not a get rich quick process. But more a 'make solid money' process. I have built 7 of these sites and it is alot of work, but even as stated in the sales page, Dave has buyers waiting. Down the road when my time is better spent elsewhere, I will turn into a buyer, not a creator of sites like these.

              Another reason people will buy sites like these even if there is minimal or no revenue is the aging of a site. The potential buyer doesn't need to sit on his hands waiting for full blown promotion building links, etc.

              Just a few things to add here....

              -Shawn
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            • Profile picture of the author Liz Morgan
              Originally Posted by Jason Dolman View Post

              Can't say I've read every single word on the sales page, but the only reference I see of a non-income generating site that sold for good money is the one Dave says sold for $5K because the buyer was looking for a site in the niche with content already indexed.

              To me... that's more right place, right time then something I'd expect to happen time and time again. I think you're taking this one example (or a few others I may have missed) and running with it rather than the many examples of income-earning sites that were sold.
              then maybe you should start your reading with the headline on the sales page:

              "If You Can Build a Crappy Little 10-Page Site or Blog That Makes Next to Nothing with Adsense or Affiliate Programs...
              ...Then You Have Everything it Takes to Realistically - and Consistently - Replace Your Job Income in Just a Few Month's Time..."

              Yeah that sure sounds to me like one would have to be in the "right place at the right time", how about you?




              Please allow me to be blunt for a moment (not towards you in particular but to the mindset you express in the above statement)...

              Mike Filsaime was a newbie... so was John Reese... Frank Kern... you name 'em.

              Just because you haven't been able to do something yet doesn't mean you can't do it.

              If someone is seriously considering this model of making money online, they will have to either learn the skills needed to build and promote the sites they create or have enough cash flow to outsource it.
              No that's ok, I'd rather you not be blunt. I again point you to the above headline (among many other references in the sales page, promo emails, etc)- does that sound like it's aimed at people who are destined to become as successful as John Reese, Mike Filsaime, or Frank Kern? Here's some more:

              99% of Newbies Have a Fat Chance in Hell of Making a Full Time Income (Let Alone Anything) Online Because:
              1. They SUCK At Writing Effective Sales Copy and Ads
              2. They SUCK At Picking Profitable Markets/Offers
              3. They SUCK At Driving Traffic, and
              4. They SUCK At Running a Business

              I think this is pretty clear who the target audience is, and it's not capable online marketers..

              The point is -- in order to sustain the level of income and traffic the site receives, you will need to continue to promote and market the site, a task that requires time, effort, and possibly money.

              Rather than putting that time, effort, and money into continually promoting an existing site, Dave has found it more profitable to sell the site for a one-time lump sum and put the energy into building another site he'll eventually sell as well.
              I understand that, but if a given person was able to get a site profitable enough for it to be desirable on the market, they could most likely outsource the work and pyramid the profits until reaching their desired income rather than selling. Seems like that's the better play to me, but each to his/her own. I'm simply concluding that the product is aimed at people whose skill level is not there yet, and need this product for a solution to that problem. Thus the reason for my initial concerns about lack of evidence in the sales process that unprofitable sites (or those earning next to nothing) can be sold for so much.

              Once again... correct me if I'm wrong, but I only see one example of a non-revenue generating site being sold for a substantial sum of money.
              Once again, the headline, and overall message of the sales letter is that sites can make "next to nothing", not that one would have to be in the right place at the right time - or otherwise get lucky.


              You're kidding, right?

              Do you think the farmer just wishes his crop will flourish and buyers will come banging on his door to give him money for his happy thoughts?

              Do you think the real estate agent just puts a sign on the front lawn and hopes people will buy the house?

              I hate to break it to you, but unless you're putting all your eggs into winning the lottery or your rich grandma dying and leaving everything to you... you're going to have to put effort into your results.
              No you're kidding right? Farming and IM... yeah I see the parallel!!! Gotta say, that's the lamest analogy I've ever seen. But lame analogies aside, I can find dozens of money making strategies on this site that with the same effort you mention, will have a person making money a lot faster than 4 - 6 months. What about you? Pretty much every self funding business opportunity I've ever pursued (especially service models) allow the individual to get paid a lot quicker -- not that 4 - 6 months is ridiculously long, but relatively. Take offline gold for instance, if you put consistent effort in for a 2 - 6 weeks, you're surely gonna get paid. And that's a far cry from 4 - 6 months.

              By the comments of some of the buyers who have the product, it sounds like it's pretty detailed and solid overall, however it doesn't look like any of these people have actually attempted to sell their sites yet, so in that regard, the jury is still out I suppose.
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              • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                then maybe you should start your reading with the headline on the sales page:
                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                Once again, the headline, and overall message of the sales letter is that sites can make "next to nothing", not that one would have to be in the right place at the right time - or otherwise get lucky.
                I know what the headline says and it did it's job: got you to read the rest of the letter... where you learn the "next to nothing" example was able to sell due to the intrinsic value (indexed, SEO optimized pages) it held with the buyer.

                The sales letter is filled with many examples of sites that sold only after generating revenue and only one (or a few) that did not generate any or little revenue before being sold.

                Since the majority of the sites required revenue before being sold, let's just forget about the few that didn't as they are outliers in the data (math guy here).


                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                I again point you to the above headline (among many other references in the sales page, promo emails, etc)- does that sound like it's aimed at people who are destined to become as successful as John Reese, Mike Filsaime, or Frank Kern?
                ....
                I think this is pretty clear who the target audience is, and it's not capable online marketers..
                ....
                I'm simply concluding that the product is aimed at people whose skill level is not there yet, and need this product for a solution to that problem.
                You originally said:
                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                Secondly, the target audience for the product is not people who have the ability to generate revenue through a site - it's newbies who haven't be able to do that.
                I'm not disagreeing about whether or not the product is aimed at newbies, I agree it is. My disagreement is with the additional logical step you take in your agruement.

                Since I'm a math guy at heart, the equation you presented was: Newbie = No ability to generate revenue through a site.

                To counter that statement, I presented a small list of well-known, successful marketers who were once newbies without the ability to generate revenue through a site. I choose them not because they are outrageously successful from a financial standpoint, but because most people would recognize the names and get the point:

                Just because you haven't done something before, doesn't mean you can't do it.

                Since the product is aimed at newbies, Dave does cover the small important things one would need to do to create a successful revenue generating site that would be attractive to potential buyers.


                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                I understand that, but if a given person was able to get a site profitable enough for it to be desirable on the market, they could most likely outsource the work and pyramid the profits until reaching their desired income rather than selling. Seems like that's the better play to me, but each to his/her own.
                As I said, I'm a math guy... so let's do this:

                You can build one site every 2 days.
                Once the site is built, you need to spend 5 days marketing the site.
                Once the site is built and marketed, those initial efforts will generate 4 months of traffic and income before you need to re-market the site.
                1 week = 1 site built and marketed

                After 4 months, a site will average $5 per day income.

                To make $100 per day (the equivalent of a $50,000 pre-tax yearly income), you'd need to create 20 sites. Since 1 site = 1 week, it would take you 20 weeks to create this level of income.

                Problem though... since 20 weeks is about 5 months, the sites you made in month 1 must be re-marketed. So, you spend 5 of your days in month 4, week 1 re-marketing the site you built in month 1, week 1. Yes, you still have 2 days left to create the new site, but how are you going to market it? Since you need to re-market the site you built in month 1, week 2, you'll only have 2 days left to market the new site you built the previous week.

                Hence the farming analogy...

                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                No you're kidding right? Farming and IM... yeah I see the parallel!!! Gotta say, that's the lamest analogy I've ever seen.
                You can plant the seeds in the ground... that's not the difficult part, just as building a website is not the difficult part of succeeding in marketing online.

                The difficult and time-consuming part of farming comes from sowing the seeds, growing the crop, and establishing a distribution channel to generate a profit... just as the difficult and time-consuming part of marketing online comes from marketing and promoting the website.


                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                But lame analogies aside, I can find dozens of money making strategies on this site that with the same effort you mention, will have a person making money a lot faster than 4 - 6 months. What about you? Pretty much every self funding business opportunity I've ever pursued (especially service models) allow the individual to get paid a lot quicker -- not that 4 - 6 months is ridiculously long, but relatively.
                You are getting paid during the first 4-6 months of the sites life. As stated earlier, the majority of sites generate revenue before being sold, so you do have an income coming in during that time. Then, the larger payday comes from leveraging those earlier efforts and the results they've generated by selling the site for 5-10 times monthly revenue.

                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                Take offline gold for instance, if you put consistent effort in for a 2 - 6 weeks, you're surely gonna get paid. And that's a far cry from 4 - 6 months.
                Apples and oranges.

                Although the skills of creating a website and promoting it are the same, the "sale" of the site requires entirely different skill sets.

                The offline gold model requires the sale based on the idea - the site isn't created yet - and more one-on-one personal interaction than the Profit Loophole method.

                Originally Posted by Liz Morgan View Post

                By the comments of some of the buyers who have the product, it sounds like it's pretty detailed and solid overall, however it doesn't look like any of these people have actually attempted to sell their sites yet, so in that regard, the jury is still out I suppose.
                The Profit Loophole method does work... just look at the number of sites for sale at Flippa.com.

                What Dave has done is taken the site flipping model and turned into a repeatable, scalable, and consistent business model.

                It will teach you how to choose a market, build a site, promote it, generate short-term profits, sell it for a lump sum, and then repeat the whole process all over again.

                If you think that's something you can do... or are willing to put in the effort to learn how to do it, I think Profit Loophole would be a wise investment, unless the other self-funding business opportunities you've pursued are proving fruitful enough you don't have the need to, of course.


                Jason
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                • Profile picture of the author Sonam22
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                  • Profile picture of the author abelacts
                    Originally Posted by Sonam22 View Post

                    In short, Profit Loophole is a systemic process of finding a niche, creating a simple website (10 pages of content), driving traffic to the website, monetize the website, and finally sell the website for a profit.In my opinion, the only main difference from traditional site flipping methods lies in making the site profitable (target: Adsense income of 2-3 bucks a day). If your site is profitable, you can fetch a higher selling price.
                    No wonder these sentences sound so familiar! They are taken from my blog wholesale about PL review:

                    Profit Loophole Review

                    I can't imagine people do this! Should I be mad at this? Or should I take it as a compliment?
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    • Profile picture of the author Liz Morgan
      Originally Posted by homebse View Post

      Carlton,

      I think that a lot of people would rather purchase a site that is a proven money maker than to spend time and money building a site themselves
      That's great, but the whole premise of the product is that it doesn't need to be a proven money maker. Otherwise, it probably wouldn't make sense to sell them off in the long run.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jason Dolman
    Carlton,

    The value is the 5-6 months of time the site has been active, getting traffic, and earning money.

    Yes... they could hire someone to write the content, build the site, promote it, etc... but they can't get the 5-6 months of earning and traffic power the sites have already generated.

    That's the value (and premium) buyers are willing to pay for.


    Jason
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  • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
    I didn't pick this one up, but I would hate to see the whole report discussed in detail in a thread here on the forum similar to what happened with their last product.
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  • Profile picture of the author Akogo
    You might have to take it on faith that it will work. Of course there's no guarantee any plan will work for everyone. However, from the way Dave speaks I'm convince he himself is an authority on the selling of sites and is successful at it. If nothing else, he'll teach you how to build traffic and revenue generating websites. I hope the mods don't delete this thread and no ex-customers start something negative. I hope only people who bought post their honest opinion and suggestions.
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    • Profile picture of the author ecdavis
      Originally Posted by Akogo View Post

      Of course there's no guarantee any plan will work for everyone. However, from the way Dave speaks I'm convince he himself is an authority on the selling of sites and is successful at it. If nothing else, he'll teach you how to build traffic and revenue generating websites. . . . I hope only people who bought post their honest opinion and suggestions.
      Right. I will add that I have bought the course, read the book, watched all the videos, and examined the bonuses. I also don't think that the course has been given away, here. Although I can't address the "possibility" issue of whether or not you can make the same kind of money Dave makes selling sites or whether his figures are realistic, I can say that in my opinion, Dave addresses the earnings issue thoroughly in the course. He also explains in detail how he arrives at pricing a single site for sale as well how he prices sites sold in bulk. Although he does not really address some of the issues of exactly how you go about transferring a domain and moving site files from one server to another, he does write in explicit, clear and abundant detail about the kind of site he develops and how you build traffic and revenue (using adsense). He provides a chart and a video to make the system of promotion easily understood. He also walks you through the process of how he markets and sells sites. Again, in my opinion, the explanation provided is ample and exceedingly clear. All in all, there are 10 videos provided to augment the written course material. As you read through the book, he indicates which videos you should watch. Dave also talks about the need to approach this model, as any IM activity, as a business and the need to follow through on a business plan-or plan of action--to see any real success in IM. That's a point that I feel is often overlooked in IM, the need for a business plan. It is all too easy to forget that people like Mike Filsaime, Frank Kern, James Schramko, Yannik Silver, for example, have business in their blood and were highly successful in business before their success in IM. Anway, to finish up, I think Newbies sincerely interested in this sort of business model will find the course valuable and be able to make the transition from information to action. However, if you are highly experienced and already know the ropes of site flipping and have sucessful sales under your belt, this course may be less valuable for you. I will mention, as well, that Dave was very quick in answering some of the questions I had after finishing the course. One more thing, in my opinion, one of the strongest points of the course is that it is very, very clearly written. That's it. I hope this helps the discussion.

      Evan
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  • Profile picture of the author Mitch Miller
    It's amusing that people think too much of Dave's latest loophole has been exposed in this thread. If what's been discussed is to much exposure of the system, then it makes me wonder what is really there to begin with.

    You establish a pipeline of sites at the rate of 5 a month, drive traffic and make a little money from them, then sell? That is what is being considered as blowing the top off of Dave's "loophole"?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by Mitch Miller View Post

      It's amusing that people think too much of Dave's latest loophole has been exposed in this thread. If what's been discussed is to much exposure of the system, then it makes me wonder what is really there to begin with.

      You establish a pipeline of sites at the rate of 5 a month, drive traffic and make a little money from them, then sell? That is what is being considered as blowing the top off of Dave's "loophole"?
      I didn't make my comments because of what has already been talked about, but if you look at the review thread for the other loophole product by the 4th page the whole ebook was laid out in the discussion.

      Reviewing the product is fine, but giving everything away is unfair.
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  • Profile picture of the author Akogo
    Up until these previous posts, if you have read the salesletter, purchased and read the ebook, watched the videos and looked at the bonuses, you will discover practically nothing has been given away in the review. No mention of the exact formula for calculating selling price was revealed... The auction site urls where not mentioned... The exact type of content wasn't revealed which he uses and is successful for him... The way he promotes these sites was never revealed... 98 to 99% is still safely tucked inside. I doubt anyone can take what has been said so far here and duplicate the process without the course.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeremy Kelsall
      Originally Posted by Akogo View Post

      Up until these previous posts, if you have read the salesletter, purchased and read the ebook, watched the videos and looked at the bonuses, you will discover practically nothing has been given away in the review. No mention of the exact formula for calculating selling price was revealed... The auction site urls where not mentioned... The exact type of content wasn't revealed which he uses and is successful for him... The way he promotes these sites was never revealed... 98 to 99% is still safely tucked inside. I doubt anyone can take what has been said so far here and duplicate the process without the course.
      I agree

      I only made mention early on because of the way the last thread went. Chris and Dave appear to cause a bit of a "stir" especially here in the review section and I was only chiming in as a reminder to not disclose the whole method because of what happened before.

      I think that this is a method that can and will definitely work for a percentage of people just like any other method will. It will really boil down to who can actually wrap their head around the information and actually on faith put it to use without second guessing and doubting themselves in the process.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mitch Miller
    In the previous thread (MSN Loophole), they only created a stir because there was a mob that wasn't real happy with the product that they had been sold.
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    • Profile picture of the author taurusguy
      Banned
      Originally Posted by Mitch Miller View Post

      In the previous thread (MSN Loophole), they only created a stir because there was a mob that wasn't real happy with the product that they had been sold.
      Well sometimes or infact many sales pages are just OVER HYPED. Or worse thing is...rehashed information again. Nothing ground breaking.
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      • Profile picture of the author ecdavis
        Originally Posted by taurusguy View Post

        Well sometimes or infact many sales pages are just OVER HYPED. Or worse thing is...rehashed information again. Nothing ground breaking.
        Just a reminder that this thread is about Profit Loophole. There is very little, if anything, that is "ground breaking" or even unique in business. Anyone wanting to take the time time to thoroughly research the posts in the Warrior Forum will find just about everything in IM discussed and explained, thus removing the need to spend money on any IM product. Anyone wanting to spend a year in a library can, as well, study an MBA curriculum. I don't think it is fair to use "ground breaking" or "unique" as a standard by which to judge an IM product unless it claims to be ground breaking and unique. Dave Kelly doesn't make the claim, unless I missed it in the sales page, that Profit Loophole is ground breaking. Nor do I think that the quote above is suggesting that we use "ground breaking" as a metric to measure an IM product. However, it does seem that "ground breaking" sometimes becomes a hidden standard used to judge a product.

        What Dave Kelly delivers in Profit Loophole, and what we pay for, in my opinion, is his expertise in the very specific area of developing a particular kind of site for resale. The book and videos carefully lay out the model to follow in order to succeed with his particular approach. I don't believe he makes a claim to be ground breaking. However, again, he does live up to the promise to show a newbie how to use this model to make money. Profit Loophole can no more 100% guarantee that you will make money any more than a business school can 100% guarantee that each and every graduate will get a job and/or make money. Business opportunity is just that, opportunity. You take the ball and run with it as far as you can go.

        Although it is true that many sales letters are over hyped, I don't believe this is the case with the Profit Loophole sales letter--again, just my opinion. The sales letter does make it pretty clear right from the beginning that this is targetted for people new to Internet marketing. However, you can read it yourself make your own decision.

        If you are new to IM or in an intermediate stage and have a strong interest in developing and reselling sites as a business, you may want to check the course out. Or not. I don't know. It does have a 60 day money back guarantee, so you have nothing to lose. But you know, if you read the sales letter, and there is nothing that rings true for you, this may simply not be the right path for you.

        Evan
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        • Profile picture of the author 7_8_shortcuts
          Originally Posted by ecdavis View Post

          What Dave Kelly delivers in Profit Loophole, and what we pay for, in my opinion, is his expertise in the very specific area of developing a particular kind of site for resale. The book and videos carefully lay out the model to follow in order to succeed with his particular approach...
          Evan
          True...

          one more thing:

          In my opinion there are several things that are good about this product.

          1.) The whole approach is very formulaic and repeatable and...
          this is a big advantage,

          Why?

          because... once you set the components together, you can begin outsourcing the whole process
          easily and that's where the magic happens...

          There are only very few key components to the whole system. This is ideal as a long-term consistent strategy, even if you are doing things on your own (without outsourcing)

          2.) It's an entire business-model laid out in one place.

          Not just some parts of it, but an entire business model, from getting the content created (in a specific way), to creating multiple small sites (in a specific way with templates) to making quick profit out of them (in a specific way).

          Well, let's think about some other business models out there...

          - RSS feeds?

          or maybe...

          - SEO?

          or...

          - Affiliate Marketing?

          Hmmm, non of these have anything to do with a business-model. They are just ONE element/tactic in the sea of many-many elements that are required together in order to create a SUSTAINABLE income model that will stay (or better grow).

          With the Profit Loophole, you get the entire business model in one place.

          All steps together... up to the final step, being monetization and even for that there is a formulaic approach.

          People who can't see the value of that... should re-consider in my opinion.

          You will rarely see a product that's step-by-step (to me at least).

          Yeah, I know.... they actually ALL promise "step-by-step", but... how many have you read where they haven't left at least 50% out of the actual complete approach? I have... many.

          The PL system is very solid.

          (just my opinion)
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      • Profile picture of the author Mitch Miller
        Originally Posted by taurusguy View Post

        Well sometimes or infact many sales pages are just OVER HYPED. Or worse thing is...rehashed information again. Nothing ground breaking.
        Well you obviously do not have any experience with that product. The sale page was definitely hyped, but there wasn't anything rehashed about the "system". Unfortunately it proved to be just theory and not reality.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wonderbaum
    Does anyone know if there is a forum for people that have bought the product or if Dave has a blog where you can ask him questions? As Akogo stated in the second post there are some areas in the report that is not discussed in detail and it would be great if there was a way to get Dave to explain them in more details.

    /Mikael
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  • Profile picture of the author MarkTX
    I emailed Dave and asked him if WordPress sites could be used for his method.

    His reply:

    "Hi Mark, it can work though IMO it makes it more difficult to sell for a couple reasons..

    1) the need to transfer and backup a database is required with wordpress, unless both parties are secure in how to do this, it wil reduce the buyer pool, 100% of my buyers are looking for static HTML sites.. that is not to say wordpress can't sell, but I don't fell they monetize as well, but yes, they can be sold, I think it's just a bit tougher and they will have a smaller market than would a static HTML site i the same niche but that doesn't mean they would sell for less."

    Since I've built more sites with WP and not so much with static html, I asked about any recommended resources for building them. Dave replied:

    "We are actually going to make some templates available, and Chris is working on a list of low cost or freebie HTML editors that can be used (as well as some of the premier ones like dreamweaver.. that we hope to have ready next week".

    So it seems like WP is not the way to go with Profit Loophole, in case you were wondering!
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  • Profile picture of the author Liz Morgan
    I asked him the same thing, although his response was not as thorough as the one he gave you, he basically gave me the same answer.
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  • Profile picture of the author Akogo
    To purchasers of Profit Loophole, Dave created two new videos explaining WordPress vs. Static sites and transferring domain names through GoDaddy (but didn't get into transferring the actual HTML files). What's also new is he supplied two sample web page templates you plugin your own info (several more varieties to come).
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  • Profile picture of the author madmonko
    I believe the Profit Loophole strategy is very doable. To get a mini site to earn $2 a day with adsense in 5 month is easy, especially if you promote your site with article marketing and social networking.

    Picking the right niche is also important. Financial and mortgage related keywords pay more. Art related do not make any money. I have tried it. So pick you niche carefully.

    Doing keyword research correctly is also very important. Pick keywords with not much competition. You want to target keywords that you can easily rank in Google. You can just post 10 articles for your mini site (as recommended in Profit Loophole). However, I would recommend you do more to target more keywords to get more traffic to get more adsense earnings.

    Assuming your mini site is earning $2 per day from adsense, that is about $60 per month. You can sell your site for 10x of its monthly income, which is about $600. Profit Loophole suggest you sell 5 sites per month. So 5 x $600 is $3,000 a month. This strategy is very doable. You can make more than $3,000 a month by selling more sites a month or making more daily income with your adsense sites.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mitch Miller
      Originally Posted by madmonko View Post


      Assuming your mini site is earning $2 per day from adsense, that is about $60 per month. You can sell your site for 10x of its monthly income, which is about $600. Profit Loophole suggest you sell 5 sites per month. So 5 x $600 is $3,000 a month. This strategy is very doable. You can make more than $3,000 a month by selling more sites a month or making more daily income with your adsense sites.
      And you needed a course to show you that? Isn't that what site flippers have been doing for a few years now? Where is the loophole? That just seems like some good ole fashioned IM work in the trenches to me.
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      • Profile picture of the author ecdavis
        Originally Posted by Mitch Miller View Post

        And you needed a course to show you that?
        Yes. While to some, this may seem as obvious as the sun rising each morning, When you are new or inexperienced with a particular skill set, the answer to that may very well be yes.

        Originally Posted by Mitch Miller View Post

        Isn't that what site flippers have been doing for a few years now? Where is the loophole? That just seems like some good ole fashioned IM work in the trenches to me.
        Maybe. But this course is very clearly written to show how to flip a particular sort of site that can be built very quickly yet still provide high quality, orginal content. Anyone already comfortable with site flipping and making money from turning over sites might not find this a useful product. I couldn't say. The sales page does make it clear that this is for people new to this. In my opinion, it is much more than IM repackaging. Again, if you are already skilled at site flipping and understand how to set this up as a business model (as opposed to gimmick), then this is probably not the course for you, and it might seem like repackaging. Anyway, this is my opinion. By the way, the course does not go into site design, html, or wordpress. However, Dave has provided some templates to use for site construction.

        I will add that Dave Kelly has been quick to answer my questions, and that, for me, enhances the value of the course (I've purchased and read and viewed all materials). As I will have other questions, this support is valuable to me. Anyway, these are some thoughts as as satisfied customer. The course, as any product, obviously, won't be for everyone.

        Evan
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  • Profile picture of the author GautamSaha
    Any one sold any "5-pack" yet?
    How much did you earn in those 5 sites?
    5x100 = $500
    or
    5x100 = $5000
    Need some real proof from any Warrior.

    Cheers!
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  • Profile picture of the author Skywriting
    The loophole is even slicker these days.
    1. Build the sites right and Dave sells them to his regular customers.
    and
    2. He bought out the super-apprentice system which templates the sites for you. And includes keyword research and other tools.

    I'm happy with my first month. And Dave answers my emails.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wonderbaum
    Is anyone seeing the results that Dave shows in the case study? I've setup 8 sites and the first 4 or in their 3 month and I have been unable to produce the traffic that Dave has on his for any of the 4.
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  • Profile picture of the author rickstooker
    The part I continue to question is the inevitability of the decline in search
    engine rankings after six months or so. (assuming you don't do something to make Google mad at you)

    Is that your common experience? What if a site is well put together, has a domain
    name and content tightly targeted to a specific keyword phrase that is still often
    searched for search phrase and has some good links?

    I mean, that's the value of micro niche sites. They're tightly targeted. They don't
    dominate a niche - they grab some traffic.

    sure, authority sites can compete, but can't build a content page for every single
    keyword variation.

    Besides, we know that Google likes older sites. So long as the sites are useful,
    they should continue to rank, perhaps more highly as they age.

    So perhaps these small sites might lose ground to other Profit Loophole customers,
    especially ones who use more links, but otherwise, why should it be inevitable that
    small sites fall behind for their specific target keywords?

    And there's a related question -- if they do, how ethical is it to sell them for ten
    times current earnings when they're going to drop in a month or two?

    And if they do drop in income within 6 months of the sale, why are Dave's
    customers continuing to buy them?

    Those are my questions.
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  • Profile picture of the author Wonderbaum
    Rick, first off you're quite right that the sites don't HAVE to decline after six months. Dave states that as well. But they might.

    Secondly Dave's customers continue to buy because they are not buying them to just let them die, but instead to keep growing them and building links to them and thereby not only keep the status quo (which would still be a +100% ROI) but to increase the income to make it a +300% to +500% ROI investment.

    /Mikael
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    • Profile picture of the author HollandsFinest
      Just wondering what the difference between Profit Loophole and Super Apprentice is. Both are from Dave Kelly.

      Is PL part of SA? I understand PL is a one-time payment, but SA is a subscription.

      But are there more differences? When to choose which one?

      I am interested in building small Adsense sites, promote them, make some money and sell them. And I am not good at content writing, also because my native language is not English, but Dutch and still living in the Netherlands. Is therefor SA better for me?

      As I also understood there is Dave´s Articlez.com team ready to write the content in SA, but does this mean people who purchase PL have to write their own content?

      How much content needs to be written in general for one SA/PL site? Of course the content for the pages of this site, but is there a need for original content which is then submitted to the article directories and blog network.

      In other words: If I were a SA customer and wanted to launch a site, how much would this cost me (in general) including the promotion part? I have my own reseller account at Hostgator, so no extra spendings here for me. Don´t mind if this can´t be said exactly, but a rough estimation would be nice.

      The monthly fee is lowered to $50, does anyone know when this will be going up again? I want to become a customer, but not sure if I become one in December or January and what the differences between SA and PL are.
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  • Profile picture of the author nazima
    Profit Loophole is a step by step guide to creating a very specific type of AdSense site with the intention of selling it in it's fourth or fifth month. Super Apprentice is the tool which makes creating, promoting and selling these sites much easier. Dave acquired the SA system after releasing PL instead of starting from scratch and coding his own software program to assist PL buyers with creating and selling their sites. SA is really incorporating PL and Dave himself says this in the SA forum:
    "To everyone that is 'thinking' of buying the profit loophole course... to help you better understand SA... DON'T.. as I will be incorporating much of what is in there into SA.. as a guide or blueprint..
    when... As soon as I can get it completed.. my goal, some time in the first half of December
    Dave"
    SA creates the sites for you with a choice of template, monetizes it with AdSense and also has sections where you can outsource the content writing, sell the site once it averages 50c per day, submit articles for promotion to EZA and also blog posts to a blog network.
    PL is just the blueprint, laid out for you as a complete start to finish guide to producing, promoting and selling these sites. SA is used to actually produce, promote and sell the sites - where you do the actual work, if you like.
    PL sites are based on a 10 page premise with additional articles required for promotion. If you use the outsource option in SA each article costs $6 so it would cost $60 for content for one whole site. You would then need your marketing articles, at least another 15 for each site.
    I'm not sure that the price will be going up again but I cannot say for sure as nothing has been mentioned that I am aware of.
    Hope this helps
    Nazima
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    • Profile picture of the author HollandsFinest
      Originally Posted by nazima View Post

      Profit Loophole is a step by step guide to creating a very specific type of AdSense site with the intention of selling it in it's fourth or fifth month. Super Apprentice is the tool which makes creating, promoting and selling these sites much easier. Dave acquired the SA system after releasing PL instead of starting from scratch and coding his own software program to assist PL buyers with creating and selling their sites. SA is really incorporating PL and Dave himself says this in the SA forum:
      "To everyone that is 'thinking' of buying the profit loophole course... to help you better understand SA... DON'T.. as I will be incorporating much of what is in there into SA.. as a guide or blueprint..
      when... As soon as I can get it completed.. my goal, some time in the first half of December
      Dave"
      SA creates the sites for you with a choice of template, monetizes it with AdSense and also has sections where you can outsource the content writing, sell the site once it averages 50c per day, submit articles for promotion to EZA and also blog posts to a blog network.
      PL is just the blueprint, laid out for you as a complete start to finish guide to producing, promoting and selling these sites. SA is used to actually produce, promote and sell the sites - where you do the actual work, if you like.
      PL sites are based on a 10 page premise with additional articles required for promotion. If you use the outsource option in SA each article costs $6 so it would cost $60 for content for one whole site. You would then need your marketing articles, at least another 15 for each site.
      I'm not sure that the price will be going up again but I cannot say for sure as nothing has been mentioned that I am aware of.
      Hope this helps
      Nazima
      Thanks for the answers!

      So if I understand this right, if you outsource the writing for a 10 page site this will cost you $60 plus the extra costs for the promotion.

      When they reach $ 0.50 per day it can be sold according to the guidelines. $ 0.50 per day is $ 15 per month and probably the site will be sold around $ 150 more or less. Correct me if I am wrong.

      When you outscource everything, creation and promotion, is there still a healthy profit to be made?

      Scaling up Adsense sites is required, it´s really a numbers game. How can the average Joe scale this business when one site plus promotion costs more then $ 100? I know I can write the content myself, but I prefer not too and how to scale if I have to write everyting myself?

      One thing more about the $ 0.50 per day for a 10 page site, I have several Adsense sites with less the 10 pages reaching $ 2.50 per day within 2 months. So I am curious why a 10 pages site with content written by quality native writers is only reaching $ 0.50 (after 4-5 months) and this being the perfect flipping point.

      Why interested in SA when I already have several Adsense sites up and running? Because I want a better system where I can automate a lot of the stuff and knowing there is a group of buyers ready.

      Not being negative here at all, just very interested and asking questions about the whole process.
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      • Profile picture of the author ecdavis
        Originally Posted by HollandsFinest View Post

        One thing more about the $ 0.50 per day for a 10 page site, I have several Adsense sites with less the 10 pages reaching $ 2.50 per day within 2 months. So I am curious why a 10 pages site with content written by quality native writers is only reaching $ 0.50 (after 4-5 months) and this being the perfect flipping point.
        I'm not aware of .50 being the "perfect flipping point." You can certainly choose the flip the site at that point, but PL discusses flipping at around the $2 to $4 dollar a day range. If your adsense sites are averaging $2.50/day over a 60 day period, then you'd be looking at flipping in the $600 to $1000 range.

        Evan
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        • Profile picture of the author Carlton Johnson
          Originally Posted by ecdavis View Post

          I'm not aware of .50 being the "perfect flipping point." You can certainly choose the flip the site at that point, but PL discusses flipping at around the $2 to $4 dollar a day range. If your adsense sites are averaging $2.50/day over a 60 day period, then you'd be looking at flipping in the $600 to $1000 range.

          Evan
          Yep, I am with Evan on this one. I am not sure where the .50 came from, but maybe it is somewhere, but to my mind it definitely isn't the goal, I do remember though the $2 - $4 range being mentioned and you can make a nice income from that.

          Oh and by the way - Yes I was the one who originally started this thread and I was very skeptical.

          I bought Profit loophole for myself at the beginning of November and I am very happy I did. It is a practical course that I think that just about anyone can do, even an absolute newbie.

          Personally I bought it because I wanted to get into site flipping because it was something that I had never done before and had know clue about, if you already flip sites and make a good living doing it then it might not be what you are looking for; that said, it still might possess some gems to help you increase your profitability.

          If you are not a total novice at IM and you have a bit more experience, you will probably really see the potential. These sites are generally really easy to rank for (a lot easier than I normally can rank my clickbank affiliate sites for) and even though I have only been at it for a month, the beginning signs are very encouraging. I will have my 10th site up by the end of next week. Personally I am going for my sites averaging at least $5 a day by the time I sell them, with very little input from me personally, I don't plan to devote a huge amount of time to each site.

          I don't really want to say any more about it until I have been doing it for a few more months and sold my first set of sites, but lets just say that I think that it is some of the best money I have spent for a while in IM. It's not rocket science stuff, but good solid business stuff.

          Anyway, Maybe I will post back here some time in April/May of next year to let you guys know how my first site sales went. Until I can show you the results, its all talk and I don't like all talk.
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  • Profile picture of the author Maximillion_Z
    Profit Loophole is definitely one of the better IM products I've purchased.

    I do enjoy Dave Kelly's style, and the fact that they didn't do any hyped up launch.

    His language and instruction is very good, and support is excellent. I still receive emails now and then with an update on case studies etc. Feels good to know he didn't just write a product then jump on to something else - he's still there to help.
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    • Profile picture of the author Arbauct
      It's been almost 3 mos. since the last reply. Any action on this? Would like to compare notes if anyone is still doing this as I've been at this since 11/09 full time.
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