Outsource Force

It is not $2000+ product actually, it is $1,995 LOL
I got an invite as an affiliate and *drum roll* $1000 payout for an affiliate.

I'm sure there IS really good information in the course (I haven't seen it, nobody has) but just think how much outsourced work you could get for $2k

I actually left a comment on the Outsource Force blog suggesting that rather than tell people to NOT use an outsourcing firm, that he provide ways/suggestions to best use a firm. However, it wasn't APPROVED by his moderator..

I understand from his videos that hiring a firm is not what HE likes, but there are times when using a professional outsourcing firm is the better way to go.

For every horror story I've heard about using a firm, I've heard an equal number of horror stories from people who used individual resources. They go "missing" for days, they take on more work than they can handle, etc..

To be honest, his rational for not using a firm just proves to me that he really doesn't truly understand outsourcing. For example, that Live Scribe pen was a neat little toy, but in the real world of outsourcing, you should be creating a solid requirements package, which breaks down each individual requirement so the person can assign the appropriate effort required to each task.

In addition, his failed project would not have happened if he or his firm would have set a clear communication plan that specified clear milestones, and then document alternative courses of action if these milestones were not achieved.

I don't mean to go on a rant here, but in my opinion, a firm or a team of people you put together will have problems regardless.. It's up to you to not only manage the team effectively, and unfortunately not everyone has experience doing this, which results in so many bad experiences with firm, freelancers, etc.

In summary, I fervently believe that going with a firm, or using freelancers to build your own team are both viable options. However, its up to you to do it right and what I dont like is when someone attacks one method just because of their bad experience -- which in my opinion could hvae been avoided with proper project management.

I own everything John puts out. It's all quality stuff. What I think the problem here is a couple of things:

1. Because John's so well known in our industry, people expect FAR too much from him, almost to where it's impossible for him to live up to the pedestal that some put him on. Whereas when Mr. Joe New Guy comes out with some latest course called "Murder Your Boss At Work And Then Crap On His Desk", people don't expect much from him, so they buy based on the hype. John doesn't stoop to that level. He creates products based on tried and true principles that will last. I ALWAYS learn something from everyone of them.

2. Because John's stuff is not based on the latest/greatest fads, which some still have their place, (i.e. all that stuff like social bookmarking a 100 billion places) some tend to write off John's stuff saying they can "learn it all in forums" and "it's nothing new". Sure, some of it might not be "new" and that's the whole point. The new/fad stuff adds to a business that's already working GREAT (i.e. making good money), while the stuff John teaches is probably best for those that haven't mastered a certain aspect of their business. His stuff is the kind that you should watch/listen to 100x times until it fully sinks in and you can perfect it all.

I remember when Traffic Secrets was released FOREVER ago and some were saying it didn't teach anything new. And, well, that was partly true, BUT what it did was teach all of the methods that will work amazingly well for a lifetime (i.e. list building the right way)

Anyway, that's my take on Outsource Force. I'll be signing up as always.

And this is just my opinion. I'm sure others will disagree. Afterall, this is a forum and that seems to always happen :-P hehe...

Brad

The information in the videos are good for anyone unfamiliar with outsourcing.

I agree that not all outsourcing firms are bad, now the market is a little mature, companies have noticed that providing a reliable service is a good USP

All the local search marketing bonanza that's currently underway needs these firms so the market is there.

The same disadvantages apply to individuals. But overall its better for actual quality of output, and you know any bonuses you offer is directly benefiting your employee

If the price tag includes an outsourcing service, which is provided by an outsourcing firm, that would be funny

Haha.. well I've been doing this for a very long time and I still dont know enough..

My whole point for creating this thread was because I feel strongly against telling everyone that one approach (using a firm), should be avoided like the plague, versus taking the time to explain when the use of a firm is the right approach.

If you watch the Outsource Force vids, you'll see that John is creating his own gaming company. He looks to have started his own "firm" because he probably realizes that the only way to build quality software, is to have a firm where you can be sure that you implement software best practices.....I'm sure he knows what the root causes were for his failed project that he discusses in his vid, so he probably is setting up a dev team that has people trained in requirements management, software project planning, PM, QA, configuration mgmt, etc.. et.. etc.. all of these things that you will have a very hard time doing with using freelancers...

If I were him, I would have created separate modules where I explain when using a freelancer is the best approach, and when you should use a firm. I would have gave the positives and negatives of both approaches, and then let the user decide what's best for them.. Some people enjoy looking for the best available people via job sites, Craigs Lists, and other places... while others would rather have someone else do it.. it's all a personal preference...


Here is what my personal experience has been..

TECHNICAL WORK (where you need a solid PM, Technical Lead, and a company that understands software development, and have implemented or in the process of implementing software process improvement programs such as CMMI)

TOOLS: I would NEVER use Basecamp to manage a technical project. Redmine, Sharepoint, Copper, and good tools to use.. You will usually end up using a combination of tools, but programs such as Redmine (free) and Sharepoint are good collaborative tools built for tech projects.

Vietnam (Hanoi or Danang): I've had fantastic results using Vietnamese firms.. they have good English skills, and are extremely talented developers who take pride in their work. I've used teams in HMC, but I've found that due to the large influx of multinationals, there is a lot of job hopping.. so you do get more consistency in Hanoi and even more in Danang.

PH (Manila or Davao): I used teams in both Manila and Davao, and ended up loving the work that was done in Davao. It was also a great excuse to enjoy the beauty of the beaches in Davao -- make sure you try the Durian Coffee!! yum..

Thailand (Bangkok): What I like about Thailand, is you'll usually find firms that use native English speakers in customer facing roles -- such as PM or technical leads.. although Thais have good English skills, it's not on par with PH, so working with native English speakers makes things a lot easier. As for technical ability, I've found some of the best programmers (especially .NET & PHP) in Thailand.

Singapore, Malaysia, and others: I've used resources in other countries as well, and was tempted to create a permanent team in Malaysia, because they have excellent English skills. However, costs were at least 25-30% higher. Singapore also is good, but the costs are too high. Burma was fantastic before the political problems a few years ago. I once had a project delivered with ZERO defects from a Burmese team.


FREELANCERS / VAs (Non technical work such as article writing, bookmarking, link building, creating accounts, graphic design, etc.)

TOOLS: Basecamp works great as John R. said in his Outsource Force videos..

PH: I currently use a company in the Philippines for link building, article writing, bookmarking, etc.. and have nothing but good things to say about them. For every 15 tasks, I might get one back that I'm not happy with, but it's just minor little issues that can be cleared up with better guidance from me.

Thailand: I have great success using freelancers in Thailand for design work such as converting static HTML pages to Drupal or WP, creating logos, etc.

Vietnam: I used freelancers in Vietnam to do things such as data entry, uploading videos, etc.

India: I use freelancers from India for article writing. Rates are very cheap and although I've had to edit them, overall its great value for money...

In summary, what I would like someone to take away from this post, is that using a firm or a freelancer will work, but there are situations where (in my opinion), using one is better than the other.... hence my primary reason for creating this thread.. when I saw John R's video warn people against using a firm, I just had to stand up and say something....

As for creating a product to sell, I would rather help fellow Warrior Members for free. In the past couple years, I've learned so much on this board about Internet Marketing, SEO, etc.. due to people sharing their experiences, and knowledge.. this has enabled me to quit my job and go 100% full time running my internet marketing business.. I'm in month 7, and what once seemed like a dream, is now a reality.

My suggestion is to try ODesk first. There is no cost to join and you can hire people from around the world. You can read reviews from people who have used a particular person. ODesk has good training to show you how to build a team to work with and how to monitor what they are doing on a day by day basis.

I stopped watching the video when he said "PPC marketing is easily outsourced".

Anyone who's involved in PPC knows that it's probably the TOP most difficult field in the whole Internet Marketing scene, and certainly not the type of stuff you can outsource to your standard Philippino outsourcer. Only people who truly know WTF they're doing with PPC will be able to run successful Adwords campaigns, and you will NOT get those guys at $3/hour, or even $20/hour.

I believe John is just parroting stuff he's picked from the internet, or he might have outsourced the entire Outsource Force product creation altogether, but I just cannot believe he actually advised to outsource PPC campaigns to the standard Philippino.

There's really no secret to outsourcing - he just gave you his best ideas in video #2

^^^^^^^^^
@JoeCool: you nailed it down man
lol

Tamer

instead of giving affiliates half the money he should sell it for half the price and cut out the affiliates, he would proabably get more sales and less refunds that way

Without the high commissions, you don't get the army of affiliates promoting, which means the launch SEEMS like a much smaller deal and therefore results in lots fewer sales.

Most of the big launches are basically driven by the fact that SO MANY people are mailing saying "you have to get this"

I've watched the videos, and for one, the price is just ridiculous. And second, I don't need John Reese to tell me how to outsource the work I need done for my business. This is NOT rocket science.

And outsourcing PPC to the Philippines? Um...no.

Gosh.. Reading this thread it seems that people hate marketing.

Dayne is absolutely right. The difficult part of outsourcing is finding good people, and as he said, no course in the world can do that for you.

In my personal experience, I've always found that it takes at least three projects, before you can make a decision on continuing to use a firm/freelancer.

Here is how things usually play out....

The first project is a learning experience. You will make mistakes, they will make mistakes, and you both will learn. The key is to do a 'lessons learned' at the end of the project and review what worked, what didn't, then incorporate these lessons into the next project.

The second project will be similar to the first. Things will be better, but there will still be some minor issues. Most likely, its more centered around actual deliverables, because by now the communication between you both has improved. Once again, after the project, you do a lessons learned, and then this serves as one of the important inputs into the next project.

The third project is where all the magic happens. You've now had two projects to work things out. You've used the lessons from the previous projects to improve things. Communication is better, both of you have clear understandings of the deliverables, and overall things should be a better reflection of what the provider can do. However, if things are still screwed up, or you see repeat instances of previous issues that you've identified in part of the lessons learned, then its time to move on.

I know some of you might feel you dont have time to give someone three projects before you figure out if they are good.. trust me.. ive had numerous situations where the companies who I thought were going to be great, that turned out to be a huge disappointment. ... whereas, I've used companies that didn't really have it all together, but were willing to work as "partners" to make the project successful no matter what... and by the third project.. they were All Stars...

Outsourcing is NOT easy.. but when you do find a reliable resource, they can make your life much easier, and enable you to enjoy all the benefits of outsourcing.. I know this might sound strange,, and maybe it's a terrible comparison, but it's sort of like finding a hot IM niche.. its easy for someone to write an ebook about "how" to find a niche, but in reality, it takes time and money to see if that niche is going to be a profitable one..

I have outsourced successfully before and it wasn't that hard/or maybe I just got lucky!
I paid more than $2 per hr though, I paid $5 per hr for a VA. Boy, she was worth every penny! Real crackerjack and she even took some of the steps beyond what my instructions were to create some great feedback for me.

I used elance and I chose this particular person because she had great reviews. I gave her great reviews and bonuses as well.

The best thing I found about having a VA was that no matter what my schedule was, those tasks (marketing) were getting done every week consistently!!

Just that one word "consistently" can take your biz. to the next level!

I will outsource again soon and let you know how it goes. Might even put something together to help others do it too.
Don't worry, if I do it won't be anywhere near $2k!!

Cheers.
Sally

People need to start working more instead of buying nonsense products like this. I'm really losing my respect for some of the top marketers very quickly (not naming names, but I'm sure you can figure it out).

Ya know? I bought a few of these $2K products. I have a biz that can afford them, and I know that if I use a tiny bit of the info, I'll make my cash back... and always do and then some. However, for a newbie or someone in the early stages of biz, unless you are 100% convinced a product can help you, there are going to be cheaper or free options to get one started in these subject areas... like list building or outsourcing.

If it was not for Walker's Product Launch Formula, I'd still be poor. However, if I went back in time 3 years and saw that PLF was a 2K product, would I have bought it? No. And I would not have the biz I have today.

There is a disconnect between struggling biz people needing great courses and the cost.

I am sure I could have gotten together the $2K if it was 3 years ago for PLF, but I doubt I would have tried.

You can justify any price tag for a make money product. But what is the reality of helping the people who need it the most?

At $2K, they mostly get people like me who already HAVE money.

That said, I am opting out of Outsource Force. At $500, maybe...

List Control was great. I recommend it for those who this will not break the bank and are truly looking for list building info. However, if you're struggling or new at this... no way. It was good, I enjoyed it and glad I did it, but not a business game changer.

Hmm...should I listen to the advice of a prominent online multi-millionaire about outsourcing... or to all these forum goers. I wonder which would be better for my business....

Hell it's taken me 18 long hard months to get to where I am with PPC, so I sure as hell ain't trusting somenone I don't no, who is half way around the world and is pretty likely to blow a rather large whole in my credit card.

How on earth can someone make a massive $2000 product on outsourcing beats me.

Who is this targeted to? We already know outsourcing is a good idea....

For example ...do you know how many articles you could get written for a whopping $2000?

at least 500 articles even more!

Throw out 500 quality articles in a decent niche and you'll make plenty of money probably enough to quit your job too....and not be -$2000.

Ah well best of luck to John, I'm sure it's a great product and no offense meant but just a little confused why people would buy this one for that price tag.

I agree JamesStan81 and I welcome some emails but not multiple times everyday. That's all I was saying.

Video #2 had good info, pretty much enough to not need much more, certainly not $2k more.

My biggest issue, aside from the price, is that I bought TS2 (Traffic Secrets 2), which was pretty much abandoned after a few months. Granted all the original material was provided, but part of the 'pitch' was John's involvement in the forum.

Not only did that dissipate very quickly, but aside from one 'assistant', there was no input at all from the company. And the assistant's input dwindled to nothing pretty quickly as well. The forum is essentially dead now, maybe a dozen posts in months.

Plus, while one of the big selling points was 'lifetime upgrades - buy once and we commit to you for the long haul', when a new version showed up and began to be marketed, no word to anyone who bought TS2. Only after pestering support was anyone even provided a link.

The net result - and I would think top marketers would be more astute on this point - is that I bought a John Reese product, and while it was good, I ended up with the feeling of "say anything to get the sale" with little or no concern for customers after-the-fact.

There is a tendency to do this currently. I already said he probably did it simply because he CAN and he is Mr "Big Guru" and affiliates will be all over him BECAUSE of the price. Free promo and advertising. Heck i wish i had a "big name" and could put any price tag on ANY product and KNEW that everyone and their mama will pick it up.

Secondly, i can see marketers doing this because they simply think:

"Heck..its a real bad economy, not many buying...so instead of selling something for $77 let's make it $2000. Less units being sold but at a premium price: Cha Ching! Overall more Profit! Cha Ching, Cha Ching!

I'm tempted to purchase one of the courses someday solely out of curiousity! I have never purchased any type of IM course before as I have always done perfectly fine without them, I do struggle to see sometimes how a few DVD's or whatever can be worth thousands of dollars.

Sure there's good value here - but nothing compared to Main Street Marketing Machine - clear franchise powerhouse business from the heart versus - you to can easily outsource all your pain for a few guys at a few bucks an hour.

Reality is what we've heard - if you can hire brilliantly leverage a proven & improving system (flow charts, mind-maps videos)
You have a shot - think Filipinos love hearing their soul for sale for $2??? From a millionaire guru no less.

Heart & Soul comes from a leader (YOU)

A loyal VA Director (in search of one myself - right now)
Three areas I consider:
Area 1 - Design, branding & Video
Area 2 - Technical, Traffic, SEO, RSS, Coding -
Area 3 - Editorial, Articles, Blogs, slide-shows, reports

Why not support John Jonas & Jeff Mills - they are the leaders
OnlinePHJobs looks pretty good

$2000 is power a team for a month

If you ever spend 2K - use Main Street Marketing as a benchmark
One of the first comprehensive & timely & integrated programs I have yet to see. Hope this helps

hi all,

if i want to hire a graphic designer for banner creation, where i should look for one?
and is the philippino good for doing graphic design work?

Thanks

Vin

I have learned a lot from a $5 course. And I have learned a lot from a $2000 course.

The way I look at it, is if the course helps me make twice as much as I spent, then it was a good investment. If the course sucks, I'll ask for my money back. I'm sure that John has a good return policy.

And... you do want to learn from the best. Is John the best? I don't know.

Yet another $1,997 product, and people still buy it.

Man! If people would stop buying these ridiculously overpriced products, the creators would be forced to reduce the price, and give more value.

I left a comment on his blog when his 2nd video came out (during pre launch), where I disagreed with a couple of his comments in his video, but I gave valid reasons and then just said "based on my experience" and did my best to make it very positive knowing its on his blog.. however it was never approved by his moderators.

It seems like they go out of their way to avoid ANY criticism.

MODERATOR

Keep this thread about THE PRODUCT Talking about the contents, the price and the forum are acceptable. Bashing any product creator is not acceptable here. Respect Allen's rules or take the consequences.

Pearson

Wow, this is a great forum. I never knew a place where so many people would take the words out of my mouth.

In my disclaimer, I will admit to using one of John's tips in the videos (i.e. using Manila craigslist to find a graphics person).

Otherwise, it had to be the most boring videos I've ever seen. Brendon Bruchard and Eben Pagan have recently put out GREAT "long form" videos that I've got a lot of value from....

...John's -- not so much.

And yes, I'm one of those people that will always click ahead to the order page to see what price they're charging before they even make their pitch...and when I saw $2K I was shocked to say the least.

I have heard this mentioned yet...but did anyone else sense some desperation when he continued to push, push, push in his successive emails saying, "it's almost gone...you can pay through PayPal...you can make installment payments...it's almost closed...special bonus...no, really!"

I thought John lost a lot of cool points on this one.

And if you're reading this buddy, I still love ya -- and I'll keep consuming your stuff. And thanks for the craigslist tip.

just sayin'

$2000 for a templates of contracts and emails to send seems like a really good deal... not

For the record, and I'm not taking sides as I'm not in full receipt
of all the facts, but I've refunded without discussion people
who simply caused mayhem in our private forums.

We had a guy a couple of months ago, who in the middle of a
testimonials section on our forum with over 500 positive
testimonials made a thread along the lines of "this is a scam".

When we asked him what part was a scam , he ranted on about
not being able to find the material he had ordered.

When we and a dozen members jokingly pointed out the
3" long " Download Your E-Book Here" button which was
located 2" above his post, he went in to a full scale
swearing phyco fest.

I didn't even bother discussing it with him.

We refunded him , kicked him out of the members area
and blocked his e-mail and IP from our system.

Some customers just ain't worth it and it's the vendors
prerogative to get rid of them without entering into a
war and peace back and forth with them.

We have business to run, time is of the essence, while
every customer feels they are owed the world, it's simply
not practical and often fruitless to spend much time on the
matter.

It's nothing personal, it's just you can't allow one person
to take up your time which inturn makes your paying member
suffer.

As I say, I'm not taking sides on this one without knowing more,
I'm just asking the poster to understand that once you get past
a tipping point in terms of hassle, it's just easier to refund,
and get on with something more constructive.

You just can't please all the people, all of the time.

Haven't seen this product, but if it does what it says, I'd say it's worth $2000. Outsourcing will allow you to get more done and grow your business in a way you can't possibly do on your own.

Sure, you could learn a lot of this stuff on your own...eventually. That's likely to cost you $2000 (or more) though and it will definitely cost you time and frustration, so why not shortcut that?

Personally I think John Reese is one of if not the best of the so called "gurus"! I do a lot of outsourcing and had I been aware of the course at the time would almost certainly have picked it up. You only need one gem to pay for the 2K over and over again. However it does depend on where you are at budget wise. 2K would pretty much pay for a low grade outsourcer for a whole year or a couple of really good ones for a month or so.

Well we can never say if the program is good or bad unless we know if it is really effective, sometimes there are basics and even advanced module or maybe techniques on how to maximize the worth of the program. I think the program can actually make a difference but they must have at least a trial version for everyone to try

Simon I think you and Doctore could put together a reasonably priced, value packed product for outsourcing.

Just my hunch.

Well said John Reese... if you're the real John Reese - then you're the man...

I'm subscribed to this thread and have been following the conversations people had in here and thought I'd add my two cents in.

My background:
I was born in the Philippines and grew up in Australia. Even though I am now an Australian I still consider myself a Filipino (btw it's spelt Filipino not Phillipino!).

Philippines background:
As of 2008, there are over 90 million people in the Philippines and is projected to be 100M by the year 2016. (If you don't believe me, look it up online) It could possibly reach that amount in less time than that. The capital city of Manila has a population of around 20M+ people.

Just to give you a perspective, Australia's whole population is around 20M (which is around 2-3 times the land size of the Philippines. Can you imagine a continent with a population the size of Australia squeezed into a small capital city of Manila???

Why am i giving you this perspective?
Because the more people there are, the more competitive it gets. Think about supply and demand. Anything from education, healthcare, EMPLOYMENT, even mateship.

Here's a bit of trivia for you: the ratio of female to male is almost 3:1, that's why it's almost normal (I say almost) for a man to have a wife and mistresses and kids (because of that ratio) - but hey, that's another topic for you.

Why are the majority of people in Manila?
Because a lot of people from the provinces relocate there for better opportunity and higher wages. Which means, that if you know the places to go to - then you can even hire someone outside of Manila and get even less buck for your money.

What is the average wage for people in Manila?
It depends on the type of work that they do. White collar workers earn much, much more than blue collar workers. Which is a bit of a spin out because in Australia, if you're a carpenter or a brick layer or a garbage collector - you earn more (much more) if you're working with your hands than if you're working on your computer (it's probably the same where you are). It's quite the opposite in the Philippines.

Just to give you an idea, 20 years ago - you can hire a maid for less than $2 (AUD) a day. That's Australian dollars! So work it out for yourself how much it is in USD or GBP. It may be a little higher now, but I can tell you - it's piece of peanuts for you!

Some of you who are still working full time hours may earn that in 10 minutes. I know of people who work and go outside for a smoke and takes them 10 minutes of their time. Sometimes this includes going to the toilet and stuff. So, next time you think of smoking and/or going to the toilet - that's how much somebody in the Philippines could be earning working for 8-10 hours in a day! That's working 8-10 hours in a day!

I'm not sure exactly how much the average wage is now in the Philippines - but I can tell you once again --- it's peace of peanuts for you.

Education:
Filipinos have a mentality that you need to finish your education to get ahead in life. It's part of the reason why moms and dads will work overtime or two jobs to get their kids to finish school. Once the oldest one have finished college, then he or she will then seek work to help his/her other siblings to finish school. Which is why it's also a normal occurence that the grandparents, aunts or uncles live in the same house to help look after the kids and also minimise household expenses.

If you don't finish school - you're considered a nobody. I know it's a bit harsh but you will never get ahead if you didn't finish school. You'd have to have a very strong entrepeneurial spirit to get ahead. Or, you'd have to know somebody and are well connected to get ahead.

Employment:
It's a normal occurence that a worker will stay at his/her job a lot longer than go look for another or go job hopping. Why is that so? Once again, because of competition and again going back to supply and demand. There are many millions leaving school and are always looking for employment. Why do you think a lot of Filipinos go overseas? To get ahead in life and in pursuit of better opportunities. Why would they leave if there's better opportunities there and less competition? Right?

So what does this tell you? It means, that when you have a worker working for you - you not only have a worker (sometimes for life) but once you've established a relationship - you are treated as almost a family. Why? Because you're providing not only your worker a way to support him/her but also a way to support his/her family.

In breaking this down further - it'd mean that they're more likely not wanting to lose you as a 'boss' / 'employer' - than you thinking that you'd lose them from working for you. Heck, if you don't like your worker - how about choosing another 1 -- out of at least a million? Do you think you'd find someone capable of doing your job?

That's why it is almost certain you will find not only a hardworking employee/outsourcer but he/she will ensure that you're happy with the work they're doing. Why? Because, they wouldn't want to lose you. Again - Supply and Demand.

So where does this leave us?
One of the posters said that they're afraid someone will steal their PPC earnings once they see how profitable it is for them.

Well, let me tell you that regardless of whether they're Filipino's or not - if someone's going to steal your earnings / ideas, someone definitely will - regardless of their geographic location.

Here's why I think it's "bullocks"!
First up, some PPC can be a hit and miss game. What's profitable for you today may not be tomorrow. Depending on many factors such as keyword competition, keyword demand, supply, etc. Bar a few niches that has constant demand - of course.

What you're playing for peanuts with PPC is a lot of money to somebody in the Philippines. So they're not likey to 'gamble' their earnings in pursuit of a quick buck. Remember, they're not just supporting themselves - but also their family. Most of the time, they are the only source of income in the household - supporting an average family of 5 in their home.

What if any of them have to go to hospital? Pay for medicines? Pay for school items? Do you think they can afford it? If you were in the same situation, are you willing to gamble your last hard earned money for a quick buck? You might as well buy lottery if that's what you're doing? It might be hard for you to understand because you've never been in that situation. But think hard --- what would you do?

Besides, if someone is making a good enough money on PPC - why would they be working as an outsourcer or an employee anyway? Let me tell you one thing - Filipinos would rather be sure than take a gamble. Sure there are entrepenuerial people there and (if you ever get a chance to visit) you could see that everywhere. You are either very rich or poor.

Why am I posting this?
I'm a bit concerned about what one of the posters said regarding PPC. It isn't nice to be stereotyping someone / nation / culture just because they feel like it. Tell me, have you ever employed / outsourced anyone from the Philippines and had someone taken your earnings from you? If you have, why didn't you hire somebody else? If you haven't, then what the heck are you talking about?

This is an example of someone making an assumption that is taken as reality - where more people will read and post and comment and make this as an actual reality. This is also a minimalist thinking. Think of abundance man! There's plenty in it for everybody!

A lot of what John Reese has posted earlier is pretty much spot on. I can tell that he's had a lot of dealings with the Filipinos from an outsourcing point of view.

Can I just say, that I'm in no way affiliated with John Reese nor am I an affiliate of his outsourcing program. Perhaps, now I'm thinking I should be. But my point is that most of his points are valid.

So, do I have John Reese's outsourcing program?
No I don't. And am not sure if I'll need to.

Will I learn something from it?
If I can learn a thing or two then it's worth it. Isn't it? If it's a complete resource then I might pick up more than I thought.

The question is - will you learn something from it?
I'm not sure. Once again, because I don't have it. But, if you are thinking of outsourcing your work and don't know where to start. It might be worth picking up and learning from someone who has been doing it for sometime.

Sure you can learn this all by yourself and research it yourself online. It's just a matter of weighing up if it's worth trading your time for money. That's up to you to decide.

Anyway, I can go on and on and give you some insider secrets to outsourcing (from a Filipino's perspective) or a background on Philippines if any of you wants to. This would depend of course on demand...

I'm actually excited by the thought of outsourcing. I've done it on a small scale and hired people from Philippines.

Lately have been thinking of scaling it up via a friend of mine who I happen to be a 'godfather' to his son. His family owns several high schools and colleges in the Philippines. I'll have to talk to him and see if I'll be able to get unlimited articles written (& copyscaped) for around 10,000PHP (around $250AUD).

Once I'm able to do that, then I might be able to pick quality outsourcers for cheap and offer the services here in WF. Keep my fingers crossed. (By the way, there's more to it than just asking his college(s) (students) to write unlimited articles for me for 10,000 PHP. Which I'm not prepared to divulge - yet... anyway.

Well, I hope this helps someone reading this and get a better insight on Philippines and outsourcers there. I hope this will also give you an open mind as well.

Look, if you are thinking of outsourcing - there are other places you can go to besides Philippines. There's India, Eastern Europe, South America, etc. There's also many reasons why it's cost effective to outsource in PH. Which probably will be for another post instead.

Hope this helps.


cheers,
Armand

@John

Like I said , I don't want to go around in circles, we both have much
better things to do with our time. There's a lot of blanket statements
that are open to debate but I'm going to pass, this is way to time
consuming and I've already made my points.

I'll just say whether somebody is a genius in nuclear fiisionable isotopic
reactors or not bares very little relationship to whether they can dig out
and find winning campaigns, the very best of the best often fail at it.

There are guys who after $2k expert PPC courses from hugely reputable
big names like Gauher, who with access to PPC guru forums
still lose their shirt. Of course not only a 100 people make a ROI
but it's far, far , far from easy, and there's a gazillion more people
who fail horribly at PPC than succeed and we can't put it down
to PH all being vastly cleverer.

No doubt , there are PPC experts in the PH, in India, in the UK,
everywhere in the world making a return, and if that's their
specialization, of course I agree with you it's far more sane a
a proposition.

But to suggest you take some untrained guy and he can do something
after reading guides, that 99% of people who try PPC can't do,
I'm going to pass .

Can it be outsourced, of course it can, should it made to sound easy
no, not in my opinion and anybody who has tried hard to make PPC
work, will say the same.

All the best, now back to some actual work.

I don't like posting in this section too much.

...And I especially don't like going off track on the threads here.

But since this thread is already a little offtrack I'll put in my two cents since there are only two parties arguing their points.

Note: This is a post regarding the vast majority (95%+) who bought John's course: affiliates.

As someone who has been in the industry quite a while and pays Google, Facebook, TrafficVance, and PoF thousands every day I can say with 100% confidence if you outsource your campaigns you are going to fail as an affiliate.

There are a few points to be made...

First off, the only time outsourcing campaigns makes sense is if you have a unique product (let's say Pepsi) and are a "brand advertiser". You are building your brand, not selling product.

That's very important to note. Anytime you have a campaign that is meant to directly sell product you are not a "brand advertiser". The reasons why it only makes sense to outsource campaigns when you're a "brand advertiser" is because:

• There's no risk of campaigns being copied (because there's no money to be made by the outsourcer)
• It's about getting your brand out - and that's something hard to measure in results. Plus you probably won't be optomizing because, in say FB ads, you will be bidding for highest impressions not CT's

Second off, I'd wager a bet that around 50% of those who bought this course haven't made a dime online.

...And that's okay. We've all been there. Props for being serious about your future business and wanting to understand outsourcing.

The other 48% make under a few thousand a day.

The final 2% we'll say are somewhere above a few thousand. Probably not above 50 thousand/day though.

Without first understanding a set skill you can never hope to outsource or teach it.

This is why I shake my heads when seeing all these WSO's by people "claiming" to have made a hundred dollars yesterday. They don't know or understand the skill their teaching - anyone can scale above that and if they can't they aren't worth listening to.

Even if you ONLY want to make that extra $100/day.

I'd worry that by even bringing up, without properly warning, members about outsourcing your campaigns without first fully understanding the principles that govern PPC you will fail and lose a lot of money in the process.

Starting a campaign, and being profitable right away, isn't as easy as it was back a few years ago. YOU will need to do everything, from start to finish in setting up your campaign, to make it profitable and that's something that takes months of actual in the trenches work to understand.

...And is NOT something someone with no idea what even being an affiliate means can pick up even if they are "college graduated" as John points out. As if being an electrical engineer means someones more qualified to run a campaign, lol.

Note: and it SURE AS HELL can't be learned by going to the Adwords learning center.

Third off, is...

You're doing it wrong.

Outsourcing PPC if you aren't a brand advertiser, but are in the act of putting up campaigns to profit from them directly, IS dumb.

Outsourcing photo collection (say for FB ads), outsourcing banners (for Google content network or direct/media buys), and landing pages (for any traffic source) is something I spend thousands on a week and IS smart.

And it's absolutely crucial to growing your business.

Setting deadlines, understanding the principles I assume John teaches in regards to keeping your outsources inline and keeping projects separated, is also a skill you must learn.

But when it comes to actually putting that campaign together and putting it live - that can't be outsourced if you're an affiliate.

It may sounds stupid... why can't you outsource that, you've done everything else?

But this is where it all comes together. This is where all the pieces of the puzzle come together - except for that last piece that needs to be put in by YOU.

There are too many variables at this stage and this is where you need to make sure all the pieces fit. There are certain easy decisions that, with your logic, seem like "duh you just do this" but to your outsourcers they don't.

And since this is YOUR money take the minute to put it all together.

For instance:

When setting up a FB campaign I:

• Outsource the photo collecting

So if I'm starting a campaign targeting American men over 35+ for a mature dating offer I need a good picture of an older, around 30, women.

This is something your outsourcer will never fully grasp and quite frankly even after years of doing this I would never trust my outsourcer to do this.

He doesn't know and digest my earnings and spend like I do. He doesn't know my profitable campaigns. He doesn't, since it's not his money, care enough to draw parallels between top converting ads.

Like: low cut shirt = more CT's.

And since the picture is the most important part of your ad it's up to you - let him have the broad task of raping HotOrNot.com for pictures he THINKS will work. Then test 10 or 20 that you'll make the executive decision of thinking WILL work.

I could go on about landing pages, etc. But you get the idea.

Too often we try and differ tasks. Because we don't believe in ourselves or, more likely, are just too lazy.

You better believe even if I get someone doing simple landing pages for $500, who every guru uses, I'm going to split test his design. Just because he's good and used by many doesn't mean I don't test.

You better believe even if I get someone doing simple photo collection, who every guru uses, I'm going to split test his images to make sure I get the best ROI.

Don't differ things like PPC campaigns to others because you feel then if they don't do well you can yell at your outsourcer or because "it won't be your fault".

You have TWENTY FOUR hours in each day and after outsourcing pictures, landing pages, even ad copy (something I wouldn't recommend but is too off-topic to get into) you better believe you'll have enough time to actually put it all together.

It takes me literally, with Facebook Ad up-loader, to put up 100 campaigns all split testing variables (which is all you need - go deep no broad). I can do 20 extremely solid ads, all of which having varying degrees of profitability, on the normal Facebook page (which is all you need).

...ALSO, this IS off-topic but whatever, unless you're making the rookie mistake of having campaigns with like $5 budgets (which is incredibly stupid and unproductive because you'll never get enough data to make a proper decision in regards to the profitability potential of the campaign) you'll be spending a lot of money.

Say on average $300/daily campaigns. If you just set up a few of those you're talking about alot of money a day without knowing if you'll make any back.

So it's not like you need to be cranking out campaign after campaign in order to make a dime.

If I didn't bother to scale it'd take under a half-an hour or hour to clean up my campaigns a day. And these ain't tiny.

So the bottom line is: no one who bought John's course needs to worry about outsourcing campaigns like he suggests. I know some of the biggest pubs for Azoogle (doing between 75-200k revenue a day) and they do EXACTLY what I do.

Outsource everything EXCEPT when it comes to putting it together. And yes, they manage a lot of campaigns. They are able to do so effectively, in an hour a day, by using tools not people so they can make the executive decision because they understand it's their money.

...

I have absolutely no problem with John. He's an insanely smart marketer and he could absolutely kill it in the CPA world if he cared to get in...

...But I already heard his answer when asked that by a mutual friend - no worries Johnny I won't tell anyone. lol, loved it though.

I've also talked to a few "guru's" who work with John promoting their stuff back and worth and they have nothing but great things to say about him.

I'm sure this course is great - I wouldn't expect less from someone like John. But I do feel very strongly about this area because I live and breath it and every single affiliate I know, who does say over 1k rev a day, doesn't outsource campaigns fully like we're talking about.

John - if you want I'll do a video, you can put it in the members area where your video or whatever on PPC outsourcing is. People can have two (one right, one wrong ;-) opinions than.

Zach

P.S - Try not to write in big blocks of text, bro. I have to crack a few beers to get through it.

Alright, I'm going to jump in here ...

Most of the people jumping down John's throat, claiming that PPC can't be outsourced simply don't know what they're doing, or they're looking at PPC through the eyes of someone who is primarily an affiliate marketer ...

Let's think local ... and I'll use an example you should probably be familiar with.

Mike Koenigs talked about the "La Jolla House Painter" during the pre-launch portion of Main Street Money Machines ... now I don't know what the numbers on that campaign were, but it seems like everyone claiming PPC can't be outsourced with a positive ROI is totally forgetting about local PPC.

A while back I was running local PPC ads for a high-end salon here in town. The average targeted client spent right around $700 per year after their first visit to the place ... their problem was getting more people in the door.

I took the challenge based on a conversation I had at a dinner party, and within 1 hour had a campaign up, a wordpress blog hosted on a new domain, and we were running traffic ... (I did none of the work, I just told the salon owner what to do on their laptop during the party)

I never changed the campaign, the landing page, the keywords, nothing ...

I never saw the campaign at all after that initial one hour of setup time. I had nothing to do with it at all ...

A while back, I saw the advertiser again at another party, and he told me killed the campaign after running for a few months, with a spend under $1,000 total, because they had too much business coming in, and couldn't handle any more new clients.

I got an early update right after the ad started running ...

In the first week, the client brought in 6 new appointments, and they figure those appointments are going to turn into $700 a year clients ... I don't know whether or not that happened, but those are their averages.


Now I'm going to assume a "couple of months" is 2 months, but I didn't dig any further ... And I'm going to assume they were exaggerating some, so et's assume they only generated 5 clients a week instead of the 6 they claimed ... and let's assume that those clients only generate half the revenue of their averages (again, assuming they exaggerated).

That'd be 5 clients a week, for 2 months, or about 40 new clients ... at an average of $350 each per year (half what they claimed) you're looking at $14,000 or so in revenue collected.

Even if they only brought in one new client a week, at half of what they told me their average client spends, they're making $2,800 on a $1,000 ad-spend.

That's an INSANE ROI!

Stop thinking about competitive markets, razor slim ROI, and the oversaturated affiliate marketing space for a minute, and you should slap yourself silly for thinking that you can't outsource PPC ...

And, you probably need to stop thinking so short-term as well ... sure, a campaign may lose $1,000 in the first month ... but over the long-term, keeping the client can turn a losing campaign into one that produces 200% - 2000% returns like this one did.

You may not be able to outsource a PPC campaign for a top ClickBank product, but if you think you can't outsource a PPC campaign for 99.9% of local businesses on the planet .... you're only fooling yourself.

ROI doesn't always mean making money right away. Most "real" business owners understand that attracting a client can be expensive, the real money is in keeping that client ...

Nearly all advertising is negative ROI if you're calculating ROI after a week ... but most "real" business owners know the value of their clients over time, and calculate ROI based on the "real" world, not the fantasyland that is PPC direct-linking.

- Gary Ambrose

1) No one is "jumping down John's throat".

2) I can't speak for Simon but I never said a word against outsourcing local. In fact, if you read real close, you'll see I said big and small business owners should take John's approach.

My advice has always been towards those either in affiliate marketing or selling their own products. And I have never said ppc campaigns can't be outsourced - I said parts of them shouldn't be.

I'm out of this thread... but I do appreciate the clever responses completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

Zach

P.S - If anyone does think local is a good idea you better outsource the parts involving with customers. Because an awful lot of them are
gonna be mad when money doesn't start making their wallets buldge instantly.

@Gary

Hi Gary

Few things.

Your local high end hair saloon is not a competitive market in terms
of PPC, not even in the same ball park. You're again almost in branding
type territory, there's no disagreement that there are scenarios
in which of course PPC can be outsourced although in your scenario
given it would seem somewhat pointless.

If you can set it up in 2 minutes and never bother to look back,
check, tweak or do anything else to make a ROI, then trust me
you're not doing the kind PPC that 99% of PPC'ers are doing.

La Jolla House Painter" , for the record was done with video not PPC
it had no relation to PPC at all.

Lastly, I'm not having a go at John, I actually hold John in high regard,
but I've seen so many newbies burnt with PPC, I think its' very
important that people do understand that true ROI based PPC
is a tough game and hard to even keep your finger on yourself
much less if it's being done remotely.

I'm "having a go" I guess that if you make the statement that "you
can easily outsource PPC", it has has to come with serious caveats
attached to it.

In a campaign where you have to be able to buy traffic cheaper than
the product commission you get or the profit if it's your own product,
PPC is a tough game. Like I said, even the best of the best at the
game make losses, ask Gauher why he's not outsourcing his PPC so
he can go sit on a beach while a PH makes him gazillions.

At the very core of the statement" you can easily outsource PPC"
I guess it's unarguable.

You can "easily" outsource the running of a nuclear plant to a PH
outsourcer with remote access but as soon as you start digging
into the statement it becomes apparent you can outsource turning
on and off the lights in the office when people go home but probably
not wise to outsource the melt down process.

There's actually probably less disagreement between positions
than this thread suggests, I think it's simply that saying you
can easily outsource PPC needed some caveats in place to
hold water.

All the best.