141 replies
Anyone have any thoughts on Outsource Force? I've watched a couple videos and have my share of "criticism" but I'll wait until all I see more of the pre launch vids before I go on a rant..

what are your thoughts? I'm sure its going to be another $2,000 plus product.
#force #outsource
  • Profile picture of the author AzzamS
    It is not $2000+ product actually, it is $1,995 LOL
    I got an invite as an affiliate and *drum roll* $1000 payout for an affiliate.

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    • Profile picture of the author SirLucius
      That's just too much money for someone to tell you how to go about building an outsourcing team. I under the "value" vs. "cost" argument, but c'mon, $2K is a bit ridiculous. I'll enjoy the freeline videos, swipe some ideas from the launch, and continue to work on my own businesses.
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      • Profile picture of the author Marty S
        [DELETED]
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        • Profile picture of the author maylene
          I've watched the three videos so far and find them strikingly similar to the stuff John Jonas has already released for free on his blog. Jonas' PH outsourcing site even gets a nod in this series. That said, there still were quite a few new takeaways, so I will definitely continue to mine what I can and save my $2k for a better investment.
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          • Profile picture of the author Robert_Rand
            Originally Posted by maylene View Post

            I've watched the three videos so far and find them strikingly similar to the stuff John Jonas has already released for free on his blog. Jonas' PH outsourcing site even gets a nod in this series. That said, there still were quite a few new takeaways, so I will definitely continue to mine what I can and save my $2k for a better investment.
            Yup. Nothing against Johnny but I think he's going a little too far in ripping replacemyself.com
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            • Profile picture of the author M Thompson
              Originally Posted by Robert_Rand View Post

              Yup. Nothing against Johnny but I think he's going a little too far in ripping replacemyself.com
              Think so? John Jonas doesn't

              I just can't believe that John Jonas actually promotes a rival product..(ok thats me being naive again!) Can't beat throwing away your hard won reputation for a few sales

              If John reads this...why is this better than replace myself?
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            • Profile picture of the author Writer
              Originally Posted by Robert_Rand View Post

              Yup. Nothing against Johnny but I think he's going a little too far in ripping replacemyself.com
              Didn't LifeOnFire mention this in a recent thread but everyone passed it off like it's normal? it's definitely is not best practices.
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  • Profile picture of the author Amanda_Davis
    I'm sure there IS really good information in the course (I haven't seen it, nobody has) but just think how much outsourced work you could get for $2k
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    • Profile picture of the author JoeCool
      Originally Posted by jamestan81 View Post

      While I understand the IMMENSE benefits of Outsourcing, does anyone know why does this Outsource Force comes with such a premium price? :confused:
      So that an Army of Affiliates will:

      * Stoop to any level to make a sale
      * Spam the hell out of their lists (with pre-written emails, no less)
      * Create fluff filled bonuses if you buy through their link (don't forget to clear your cookies)
      * Setup "video reviews" of them reviewing the launch videos
      * Run fake PPC ads with headlines like: Is Product Name Here A Scam?
      * Create hundreds of Flogs
      * Use link bait on Twitter & Facebook or wherever else they can trick people into clicking on their affiliate links

      Do Anything, ANYTHING... to get that $1,000.00, $2,000.00 commission.

      And we wonder why Internet Marketing and Affiliate Marketing gets so sleazy at times.


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      • Profile picture of the author HighPowerSites
        Originally Posted by JoeCool View Post

        So that an Army of Affiliates will:

        * Stoop to any level to make a sale
        * Spam the hell out of their lists (with pre-written emails, no less)
        * Create fluff filled bonuses if you buy through their link (don't forget to clear your cookies)
        * Setup "video reviews" of them reviewing the launch videos
        * Run fake PPC ads with headlines like: Is Product Name Here A Scam?
        * Create hundreds of Flogs
        * Use link bait on Twitter & Facebook or wherever else they can trick people into clicking on their affiliate links

        Do Anything, ANYTHING... to get that $1,000.00, $2,000.00 commission.

        And we wonder why Internet Marketing and Affiliate Marketing gets so sleazy at times.


        ~ JoeCool
        Absolutely agree! I have been spammed by every single "guru" I am associated with and multiple times per day about this product! These people have no shame and people fall for it. That's the crazy part.
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    • Profile picture of the author tyroneshum
      Originally Posted by Amanda_Davis View Post

      I'm sure there IS really good information in the course (I haven't seen it, nobody has) but just think how much outsourced work you could get for $2k
      True, Amanda that's why I also admire how Reese has launched this program very well and that made me proud of promoting it. Well, the course can be considered high quality product (with the way it's priced one-time upfront) but still, after paying that off, you'll surely be experiencing benefits from outsourcing into Reese's pool of outsourcers. $2/hour is such fantastic.

      I haven't reviewed the entire program yet but I know Outsource Force will give another great knowledge when it comes to outsourcing.

      Sure there's good value here - but nothing compared to Main Street Marketing Machine - clear franchise powerhouse business from the heart versus - you to can easily outsource all your pain for a few guys at a few bucks an hour.
      Well, I just started with Main Street Marketing Academy recently and I'll see how this works. It seems to be effective as well in targeting local markets which can yield more income as we offer expert marketing with local businesses.

      Thus, mixing both effective strategies is my thing now.
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  • Profile picture of the author Doctore
    I actually left a comment on the Outsource Force blog suggesting that rather than tell people to NOT use an outsourcing firm, that he provide ways/suggestions to best use a firm. However, it wasn't APPROVED by his moderator..

    I understand from his videos that hiring a firm is not what HE likes, but there are times when using a professional outsourcing firm is the better way to go.

    For every horror story I've heard about using a firm, I've heard an equal number of horror stories from people who used individual resources. They go "missing" for days, they take on more work than they can handle, etc..

    To be honest, his rational for not using a firm just proves to me that he really doesn't truly understand outsourcing. For example, that Live Scribe pen was a neat little toy, but in the real world of outsourcing, you should be creating a solid requirements package, which breaks down each individual requirement so the person can assign the appropriate effort required to each task.

    In addition, his failed project would not have happened if he or his firm would have set a clear communication plan that specified clear milestones, and then document alternative courses of action if these milestones were not achieved.

    I don't mean to go on a rant here, but in my opinion, a firm or a team of people you put together will have problems regardless.. It's up to you to not only manage the team effectively, and unfortunately not everyone has experience doing this, which results in so many bad experiences with firm, freelancers, etc.

    In summary, I fervently believe that going with a firm, or using freelancers to build your own team are both viable options. However, its up to you to do it right and what I dont like is when someone attacks one method just because of their bad experience -- which in my opinion could hvae been avoided with proper project management.
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  • Profile picture of the author Brad Callen
    I own everything John puts out. It's all quality stuff. What I think the problem here is a couple of things:

    1. Because John's so well known in our industry, people expect FAR too much from him, almost to where it's impossible for him to live up to the pedestal that some put him on. Whereas when Mr. Joe New Guy comes out with some latest course called "Murder Your Boss At Work And Then Crap On His Desk", people don't expect much from him, so they buy based on the hype. John doesn't stoop to that level. He creates products based on tried and true principles that will last. I ALWAYS learn something from everyone of them.

    2. Because John's stuff is not based on the latest/greatest fads, which some still have their place, (i.e. all that stuff like social bookmarking a 100 billion places) some tend to write off John's stuff saying they can "learn it all in forums" and "it's nothing new". Sure, some of it might not be "new" and that's the whole point. The new/fad stuff adds to a business that's already working GREAT (i.e. making good money), while the stuff John teaches is probably best for those that haven't mastered a certain aspect of their business. His stuff is the kind that you should watch/listen to 100x times until it fully sinks in and you can perfect it all.

    I remember when Traffic Secrets was released FOREVER ago and some were saying it didn't teach anything new. And, well, that was partly true, BUT what it did was teach all of the methods that will work amazingly well for a lifetime (i.e. list building the right way)

    Anyway, that's my take on Outsource Force. I'll be signing up as always.

    And this is just my opinion. I'm sure others will disagree. Afterall, this is a forum and that seems to always happen :-P hehe...

    Brad
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    • Profile picture of the author Ty Neal
      Originally Posted by Brad Callen View Post

      I own everything John puts out. It's all quality stuff. What I think the problem here is a couple of things:

      1. Because John's so well known in our industry, people expect FAR too much from him, almost to where it's impossible for him to live up to the pedestal that some put him on. Whereas when Mr. Joe New Guy comes out with some latest course called "Murder Your Boss At Work And Then Crap On His Desk", people don't expect much from him, so they buy based on the hype. John doesn't stoop to that level. He creates products based on tried and true principles that will last. I ALWAYS learn something from everyone of them.

      2. Because John's stuff is not based on the latest/greatest fads, which some still have their place, (i.e. all that stuff like social bookmarking a 100 billion places) some tend to write off John's stuff saying they can "learn it all in forums" and "it's nothing new". Sure, some of it might not be "new" and that's the whole point. The new/fad stuff adds to a business that's already working GREAT (i.e. making good money), while the stuff John teaches is probably best for those that haven't mastered a certain aspect of their business. His stuff is the kind that you should watch/listen to 100x times until it fully sinks in and you can perfect it all.

      I remember when Traffic Secrets was released FOREVER ago and some were saying it didn't teach anything new. And, well, that was partly true, BUT what it did was teach all of the methods that will work amazingly well for a lifetime (i.e. list building the right way)

      Anyway, that's my take on Outsource Force. I'll be signing up as always.

      And this is just my opinion. I'm sure others will disagree. Afterall, this is a forum and that seems to always happen :-P hehe...

      Brad

      Brad you are right my friend, I know this product will change some lives for the marketers that take action and apply what in the product. I'm ready to start receiving those $1000 checks from it When I seen the first video i already new i will be getting this product it makes sense business sense anyway.

      Learn this stuff today or you will suffer later is how I look at it
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  • Profile picture of the author Simons
    The information in the videos are good for anyone unfamiliar with outsourcing.

    I agree that not all outsourcing firms are bad, now the market is a little mature, companies have noticed that providing a reliable service is a good USP

    All the local search marketing bonanza that's currently underway needs these firms so the market is there.

    The same disadvantages apply to individuals. But overall its better for actual quality of output, and you know any bonuses you offer is directly benefiting your employee

    If the price tag includes an outsourcing service, which is provided by an outsourcing firm, that would be funny
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  • Profile picture of the author Doctore
    Haha.. well I've been doing this for a very long time and I still dont know enough..

    My whole point for creating this thread was because I feel strongly against telling everyone that one approach (using a firm), should be avoided like the plague, versus taking the time to explain when the use of a firm is the right approach.

    If you watch the Outsource Force vids, you'll see that John is creating his own gaming company. He looks to have started his own "firm" because he probably realizes that the only way to build quality software, is to have a firm where you can be sure that you implement software best practices.....I'm sure he knows what the root causes were for his failed project that he discusses in his vid, so he probably is setting up a dev team that has people trained in requirements management, software project planning, PM, QA, configuration mgmt, etc.. et.. etc.. all of these things that you will have a very hard time doing with using freelancers...

    If I were him, I would have created separate modules where I explain when using a freelancer is the best approach, and when you should use a firm. I would have gave the positives and negatives of both approaches, and then let the user decide what's best for them.. Some people enjoy looking for the best available people via job sites, Craigs Lists, and other places... while others would rather have someone else do it.. it's all a personal preference...


    Here is what my personal experience has been..

    TECHNICAL WORK (where you need a solid PM, Technical Lead, and a company that understands software development, and have implemented or in the process of implementing software process improvement programs such as CMMI)

    TOOLS: I would NEVER use Basecamp to manage a technical project. Redmine, Sharepoint, Copper, and good tools to use.. You will usually end up using a combination of tools, but programs such as Redmine (free) and Sharepoint are good collaborative tools built for tech projects.

    Vietnam (Hanoi or Danang): I've had fantastic results using Vietnamese firms.. they have good English skills, and are extremely talented developers who take pride in their work. I've used teams in HMC, but I've found that due to the large influx of multinationals, there is a lot of job hopping.. so you do get more consistency in Hanoi and even more in Danang.

    PH (Manila or Davao): I used teams in both Manila and Davao, and ended up loving the work that was done in Davao. It was also a great excuse to enjoy the beauty of the beaches in Davao -- make sure you try the Durian Coffee!! yum..

    Thailand (Bangkok): What I like about Thailand, is you'll usually find firms that use native English speakers in customer facing roles -- such as PM or technical leads.. although Thais have good English skills, it's not on par with PH, so working with native English speakers makes things a lot easier. As for technical ability, I've found some of the best programmers (especially .NET & PHP) in Thailand.

    Singapore, Malaysia, and others: I've used resources in other countries as well, and was tempted to create a permanent team in Malaysia, because they have excellent English skills. However, costs were at least 25-30% higher. Singapore also is good, but the costs are too high. Burma was fantastic before the political problems a few years ago. I once had a project delivered with ZERO defects from a Burmese team.


    FREELANCERS / VAs (Non technical work such as article writing, bookmarking, link building, creating accounts, graphic design, etc.)

    TOOLS: Basecamp works great as John R. said in his Outsource Force videos..

    PH: I currently use a company in the Philippines for link building, article writing, bookmarking, etc.. and have nothing but good things to say about them. For every 15 tasks, I might get one back that I'm not happy with, but it's just minor little issues that can be cleared up with better guidance from me.

    Thailand: I have great success using freelancers in Thailand for design work such as converting static HTML pages to Drupal or WP, creating logos, etc.

    Vietnam: I used freelancers in Vietnam to do things such as data entry, uploading videos, etc.

    India: I use freelancers from India for article writing. Rates are very cheap and although I've had to edit them, overall its great value for money...

    In summary, what I would like someone to take away from this post, is that using a firm or a freelancer will work, but there are situations where (in my opinion), using one is better than the other.... hence my primary reason for creating this thread.. when I saw John R's video warn people against using a firm, I just had to stand up and say something....

    As for creating a product to sell, I would rather help fellow Warrior Members for free. In the past couple years, I've learned so much on this board about Internet Marketing, SEO, etc.. due to people sharing their experiences, and knowledge.. this has enabled me to quit my job and go 100% full time running my internet marketing business.. I'm in month 7, and what once seemed like a dream, is now a reality.
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    • Profile picture of the author fypnlp
      Wow you really really know your stuff. I think i will keep an eye on this thread!
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  • My suggestion is to try ODesk first. There is no cost to join and you can hire people from around the world. You can read reviews from people who have used a particular person. ODesk has good training to show you how to build a team to work with and how to monitor what they are doing on a day by day basis.
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    • Profile picture of the author JennRush
      Originally Posted by JohnBergmanReviews View Post

      My suggestion is to try ODesk first. There is no cost to join and you can hire people from around the world. You can read reviews from people who have used a particular person. ODesk has good training to show you how to build a team to work with and how to monitor what they are doing on a day by day basis.
      Thanks for pointing out ODesk. I just went there. Looks promising.

      Since I already have contacts in India, I'd been planning to talk with my friends there. However, in reading the other posts, I may look at ODesk for Vietnamese contacts.

      Do you have any particular success tips for using ODesk?

      Thanks!
      Jenn
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      Providing Measurable Marketing Results
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  • I stopped watching the video when he said "PPC marketing is easily outsourced".

    Anyone who's involved in PPC knows that it's probably the TOP most difficult field in the whole Internet Marketing scene, and certainly not the type of stuff you can outsource to your standard Philippino outsourcer. Only people who truly know WTF they're doing with PPC will be able to run successful Adwords campaigns, and you will NOT get those guys at $3/hour, or even $20/hour.

    I believe John is just parroting stuff he's picked from the internet, or he might have outsourced the entire Outsource Force product creation altogether, but I just cannot believe he actually advised to outsource PPC campaigns to the standard Philippino.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

      I stopped watching the video when he said "PPC marketing is easily outsourced".

      Anyone who's involved in PPC knows that it's probably the TOP most difficult field in the whole Internet Marketing scene, and certainly not the type of stuff you can outsource to your standard Philippino outsourcer. Only people who truly know WTF they're doing with PPC will be able to run successful Adwords campaigns, and you will NOT get those guys at $3/hour, or even $20/hour.

      I believe John is just parroting stuff he's picked from the internet, or he might have outsourced the entire Outsource Force product creation altogether, but I just cannot believe he actually advised to outsource PPC campaigns to the standard Philippino.

      This never even occurred to me when I watched it, because the video had become so repetitive. I believe you are right. Thanks for pointing it out.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryce
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        This never even occurred to me when I watched it, because the video had become so repetitive. I believe you are right. Thanks for pointing it out.
        Definitely repetitive On video #3, quite annoying the way he stretches one idea in a loop... to the point you start thinking if the course was entirely outsourced and glued together.

        Outsourcing is not a new idea but new technologies allowed that market to multiply its size many many times.

        As Doctore wrote before outsourcing the way Reese talks about on hos videos involve a lot of management, software project planning etc..

        I doubt if the average guy could really outsource any of those "big six bussiness models" successfully.

        Personnaly I like how Tim Ferriss does it by choosing a MUSE which is usually one niche product sold on 1 or 2 channels in a SUPER FOCUSED way.

        I guess Reese's patchwork of course is nothing more than a collection of experiences he had while trying to grow his video game company.

        For a more "Real Life" and FREE advice on the same topic I would go to:

        Mom-and-Pop Multinationals: How to Go Global 59 Comments

        Never forget that whenever you think on outsourcing, think whether you really to want to, outsource life? outsource work? both?

        Be real and most important, BE HAPPY


        Case Studies
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  • Profile picture of the author FiverrGuru
    There's really no secret to outsourcing - he just gave you his best ideas in video #2
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  • Profile picture of the author Tamer
    ^^^^^^^^^
    @JoeCool: you nailed it down man
    lol

    Tamer
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  • Profile picture of the author Frank Ayres
    instead of giving affiliates half the money he should sell it for half the price and cut out the affiliates, he would proabably get more sales and less refunds that way
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by SpudDS View Post

      instead of giving affiliates half the money he should sell it for half the price and cut out the affiliates, he would proabably get more sales and less refunds that way
      Even less for me. At 25% of the price like $400-$500, I would take a serious look at this.
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      • Profile picture of the author Craig Beckta
        Higher priced products actually attract more affiliates than
        lower priced products.

        And the refund rate will probably be close to the same
        refund rate as a $500.00 product.

        With a higher price point you also don't have to sell
        as many products to make the same amount of
        money or more.

        The 2k price point is a proven price point if you have the
        right affiliates promoting for you.

        Craig
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      • Profile picture of the author Matthew Ohms
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        Even less for me. At 25% of the price like $400-$500, I would take a serious look at this.
        I agree. I like John R and his products are great, but in my opinion nearly 2K is a bit much. (I know I shouldn't be drawing conclusions without actually reviewing the product like the many other negative nancys do on this forum). When I was watching the videos I told myself if the price is at or around $500, maybe even if it was closer to 1K, I would buy it. When I saw the $1995 I almost blew a mouthful of Black Velvet Reserve all over my laptop!
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  • Profile picture of the author Amanda_Davis
    Without the high commissions, you don't get the army of affiliates promoting, which means the launch SEEMS like a much smaller deal and therefore results in lots fewer sales.

    Most of the big launches are basically driven by the fact that SO MANY people are mailing saying "you have to get this"
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    Banned
    I've watched the videos, and for one, the price is just ridiculous. And second, I don't need John Reese to tell me how to outsource the work I need done for my business. This is NOT rocket science.

    And outsourcing PPC to the Philippines? Um...no.
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  • Profile picture of the author Scott Ames
    Gosh.. Reading this thread it seems that people hate marketing.
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    Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm. -Winston Churchill

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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by Scott Ames View Post

      Gosh.. Reading this thread it seems that people hate marketing.
      Does price point skepticism equate to hating marketing? That's a new one.
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      • Profile picture of the author JaniG
        i guess the $2k price point is for the serious marketers

        Then again one who is smart could figure this out on their own and build a team.

        However some people don't know how to outsource or where the heck to go.

        Jani G
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        • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
          Banned
          Originally Posted by JaniG View Post

          i guess the $2k price point is for the serious marketers

          Then again one who is smart could figure this out on their own and build a team.

          However some people don't know how to outsource or where the heck to go.

          Jani G
          I will tell you were they can go for free, right here in this forum. Outsourcing like I said is not difficult. What can be a bit tricky is finding good people to work for you and to do it well. There is not going to be a marketing course that can teach this. Sure, they can tell you what to LOOK for or some tips and places online to go (once again, FREE in this forum people)...but it is all going to come down to that individual person(s) that you hire in the end.
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        • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
          Originally Posted by JaniG View Post

          i guess the $2k price point is for the serious marketers

          Then again one who is smart could figure this out on their own and build a team.

          However some people don't know how to outsource or where the heck to go.

          Jani G
          Nobody needs to spend $2000 to get the information where to outsource. The only reason why this is $2k is to bait affiliates and the fact that he has a "big name" allowing him to do so.
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          • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
            Banned
            Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

            Nobody needs to spend $2000 to get the information where to outsource. The only reason why this is $2k is to bait affiliates and the fact that he has a "big name" allowing him to do so.
            1000% in agreement.
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            Create and Differentiate. Illuminate Your Buyers Need or Wants. Grow Rich.
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  • Profile picture of the author Doctore
    Dayne is absolutely right. The difficult part of outsourcing is finding good people, and as he said, no course in the world can do that for you.

    In my personal experience, I've always found that it takes at least three projects, before you can make a decision on continuing to use a firm/freelancer.

    Here is how things usually play out....

    The first project is a learning experience. You will make mistakes, they will make mistakes, and you both will learn. The key is to do a 'lessons learned' at the end of the project and review what worked, what didn't, then incorporate these lessons into the next project.

    The second project will be similar to the first. Things will be better, but there will still be some minor issues. Most likely, its more centered around actual deliverables, because by now the communication between you both has improved. Once again, after the project, you do a lessons learned, and then this serves as one of the important inputs into the next project.

    The third project is where all the magic happens. You've now had two projects to work things out. You've used the lessons from the previous projects to improve things. Communication is better, both of you have clear understandings of the deliverables, and overall things should be a better reflection of what the provider can do. However, if things are still screwed up, or you see repeat instances of previous issues that you've identified in part of the lessons learned, then its time to move on.

    I know some of you might feel you dont have time to give someone three projects before you figure out if they are good.. trust me.. ive had numerous situations where the companies who I thought were going to be great, that turned out to be a huge disappointment. ... whereas, I've used companies that didn't really have it all together, but were willing to work as "partners" to make the project successful no matter what... and by the third project.. they were All Stars...

    Outsourcing is NOT easy.. but when you do find a reliable resource, they can make your life much easier, and enable you to enjoy all the benefits of outsourcing.. I know this might sound strange,, and maybe it's a terrible comparison, but it's sort of like finding a hot IM niche.. its easy for someone to write an ebook about "how" to find a niche, but in reality, it takes time and money to see if that niche is going to be a profitable one..
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    • Profile picture of the author covert
      I bought some of the great info that Jon Jonas provides and it helped me to create outsourcers all over the world, and at a price that was a lot less than 2K. I guess that is the price that most will pay, but I'm not sure why they do?

      It's obvious that the last 3-4 big launches are being done by the same team.

      - Videos look the same
      - Shopping cart and order page are the same
      - Price is the same

      If they really wanted to get mass appeal, they'd make the price $497 or less. That is more than reasonable...

      My question, are they really getting people to buy at this 2k price tag?

      Think about this: Frank Kern put out his "List Control" back in Jan/Feb as a $297 option to try his MCM program. Then he brought it back with a full launch as a $2k product. Has no one noticed this slight of hand?

      Just curious,

      Al
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      • Profile picture of the author kincontrol
        Originally Posted by covert View Post

        I bought some of the great info that Jon Jonas provides and it helped me to create outsourcers all over the world, and at a price that was a lot less than 2K. I guess that is the price that most will pay, but I'm not sure why they do?

        It's obvious that the last 3-4 big launches are being done by the same team.

        - Videos look the same
        - Shopping cart and order page are the same
        - Price is the same

        If they really wanted to get mass appeal, they'd make the price $497 or less. That is more than reasonable...

        My question, are they really getting people to buy at this 2k price tag?

        Think about this: Frank Kern put out his "List Control" back in Jan/Feb as a $297 option to try his MCM program. Then he brought it back with a full launch as a $2k product. Has no one noticed this slight of hand?

        Just curious,

        Al
        Hi, I just joined actually looking for information on Frank Kern's List Control because I'm expecting that he'll likely be doing a relaunch in the Summer some time. I'm wondering if it really actually did contain more information than other commonly used list building practices and if it was worth the money. Does anyone have experience with this program, would you endorse it and experiences with it that you can share?

        Also, Al, can you tell me what "MCM" stands for?

        Thanks,

        Kim
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  • Profile picture of the author sallycev
    I have outsourced successfully before and it wasn't that hard/or maybe I just got lucky!
    I paid more than $2 per hr though, I paid $5 per hr for a VA. Boy, she was worth every penny! Real crackerjack and she even took some of the steps beyond what my instructions were to create some great feedback for me.

    I used elance and I chose this particular person because she had great reviews. I gave her great reviews and bonuses as well.

    The best thing I found about having a VA was that no matter what my schedule was, those tasks (marketing) were getting done every week consistently!!

    Just that one word "consistently" can take your biz. to the next level!

    I will outsource again soon and let you know how it goes. Might even put something together to help others do it too.
    Don't worry, if I do it won't be anywhere near $2k!!

    Cheers.
    Sally
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    • Profile picture of the author Amanda_Davis
      Originally Posted by sallycev View Post

      I have outsourced successfully before and it wasn't that hard/or maybe I just got lucky!
      I paid more than $2 per hr though, I paid $5 per hr for a VA. Boy, she was worth every penny! Real crackerjack and she even took some of the steps beyond what my instructions were to create some great feedback for me.
      $5/hr is still cheap for a good VA - sounds like you found a good worker! Do you still work with her?
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      • Profile picture of the author sallycev
        Originally Posted by Amanda_Davis View Post

        $5/hr is still cheap for a good VA - sounds like you found a good worker! Do you still work with her?
        Hi Amanda,

        No, unfortunately I no longer have that particular business so I no longer needed her. But I'm getting ready to work up a bid posting for another business and thought I would use my previous experience to not only outline the new VA's requirements but also to create a tutorial video outlining the steps I took and why I think it was a successful experience. Think anyone would benefit from that?

        Thanks,
        Sally
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  • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
    Banned
    People need to start working more instead of buying nonsense products like this. I'm really losing my respect for some of the top marketers very quickly (not naming names, but I'm sure you can figure it out).
    Signature
    Create and Differentiate. Illuminate Your Buyers Need or Wants. Grow Rich.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryce
      Originally Posted by Dayne Dylan View Post

      People need to start working more instead of buying nonsense products like this. I'm really losing my respect for some of the top marketers very quickly (not naming names, but I'm sure you can figure it out).
      Mike Filsaime just jumped the affiliate bandwagon

      Mike Filsaime's Outsource Force Bonus
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  • Profile picture of the author hd28qi
    Ya know? I bought a few of these $2K products. I have a biz that can afford them, and I know that if I use a tiny bit of the info, I'll make my cash back... and always do and then some. However, for a newbie or someone in the early stages of biz, unless you are 100% convinced a product can help you, there are going to be cheaper or free options to get one started in these subject areas... like list building or outsourcing.

    If it was not for Walker's Product Launch Formula, I'd still be poor. However, if I went back in time 3 years and saw that PLF was a 2K product, would I have bought it? No. And I would not have the biz I have today.

    There is a disconnect between struggling biz people needing great courses and the cost.

    I am sure I could have gotten together the $2K if it was 3 years ago for PLF, but I doubt I would have tried.

    You can justify any price tag for a make money product. But what is the reality of helping the people who need it the most?

    At $2K, they mostly get people like me who already HAVE money.

    That said, I am opting out of Outsource Force. At $500, maybe...

    List Control was great. I recommend it for those who this will not break the bank and are truly looking for list building info. However, if you're struggling or new at this... no way. It was good, I enjoyed it and glad I did it, but not a business game changer.
    Signature

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  • Profile picture of the author cseo32
    Hmm...should I listen to the advice of a prominent online multi-millionaire about outsourcing... or to all these forum goers. I wonder which would be better for my business....
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    • Profile picture of the author Negotiator74
      Make no mistake....he's a prominent online multi-millionaire because he knows how to market. Yes, his products are good but don't confuse his earnings with his ability to teach you something magical.

      Originally Posted by cseo32 View Post

      Hmm...should I listen to the advice of a prominent online multi-millionaire about outsourcing... or to all these forum goers. I wonder which would be better for my business....
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    • Profile picture of the author Dayne Dylan
      Banned
      Originally Posted by cseo32 View Post

      Hmm...should I listen to the advice of a prominent online multi-millionaire about outsourcing... or to all these forum goers. I wonder which would be better for my business....
      Don't underestimate the people here and the income they make my friend.
      Signature
      Create and Differentiate. Illuminate Your Buyers Need or Wants. Grow Rich.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ryce
      Originally Posted by cseo32 View Post

      Hmm...should I listen to the advice of a prominent online multi-millionaire about outsourcing... or to all these forum goers. I wonder which would be better for my business....
      From Someone With:
      Posts: 4
      Thanks: 0
      Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

      Should we listen to you :confused:
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      • Profile picture of the author arun009
        Banned
        [DELETED]
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      • Profile picture of the author Alex Lind
        If I need to do anything, I try and seek the advice of someone who has 'done it'

        So, if I want to go on holiday to Paris, I phone somebody who has been to Paris. It's no secret on how to get there - I just prefer to talk to somebody who has been there and knows how to get there, which airline to use, which hotel to stay at, which attractions to avoid, and the 'must see stuff'.

        That's the same way I use these products.

        If I need to outsource (which I don't), I would buy the course from John Reese. John has been there and done it. His expertise is worth the price. Doesn't matter if its 1 DVD or 10. I just want to know how he got there.

        Same with Andy Jenkins for example - If I was going to do a lot of Video work, I would have bought Andy Jenkins' Video Boss (which I didn't). Andy knows Video backwards - he's the guy to go to.

        The bottom line is, if you need the training to progress your online business, $2k is probably a fair price - again, only if you need it. I don't need to outsource, so won't buy it.

        Alex
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        • Profile picture of the author covert
          Someone asked what MCM was? "Mass Control Monthly".

          Here's the deal...

          When I was looking to outsource, I posted here to get some feedback...

          Got it and hired a company...

          They did a pretty good job, and had I been more organized, I could have used them even more powerfully.

          Decided to get a full time person.

          Researched, and found Jon Jonas. Took his program for like $200 or whatever and learned everything I needed about outsourcing. His info is worth more (and maybe it is now), but his advice directly allowed me to hire my first filipino assistant.

          Not sure what Reese could be going over in his course that would be worth 2k? And I've bought from him, Kern, Filsaime, et al before, but come on! I get the feeling they are not developing a course and then deciding its worth, they are coming up with a 2,000 price tag and trying to build a course to meet the price.

          This is the problem with this in my opinion.

          I needed covers done for my books. I went to elance, found a great graphic designer in Bulgaria, saw his work, hired him, he did an excellent job for a great price.

          Follow my advice: JUST TAKE ACTION! DO SOMETHING.

          Go hire your first person right now... Have them do something simple. Get your feet wet. Don't wait for all the lights to be green and wait for some coaching deal.

          When you take action, you'll know in about a week or two if it is working...You can always replace them. You are in business, so act like it...

          Spend a hundy or two and see what you get...

          Another tip- Hired my personal assistant right out of my local Craigs List. Was never on there in my life. Took an ad out one day, and started interviewing the next. In two weeks I had a great assistant that I still use today... She's not $2/hour, but I decided I needed someone I could call, IM, or email when ever I needed to, and she's wonderful.

          TAKE ACTION!

          Hope that helps someone.

          Peace,

          Al
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          • Profile picture of the author Marty S
            Latest John Reese email with this subject - "Okay then. Let me BRIBE you. (AMAZING BONUS INSIDE)"

            List Control did not sell out. MSMM did not sell out. Now John Reese is adding bribes for his own product, so apparently, sales could be better.

            I hope this means some adjusted price points for products that I might be interested in from these guys.



            .
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          • Profile picture of the author OutsourceToolbox
            Originally Posted by covert View Post

            Follow my advice: JUST TAKE ACTION! DO SOMETHING.

            Go hire your first person right now... Have them do something simple. Get your feet wet. Don't wait for all the lights to be green and wait for some coaching deal.

            When you take action, you'll know in about a week or two if it is working...You can always replace them. You are in business, so act like it...

            Spend a hundy or two and see what you get...
            Al
            Perfect!

            You can talk about interior decoration, subtle tones, or painting a room all you like, but until a brush dipped in paint is applied to the wall - nothing has changed. ACTION alone is what creates results, nothing else.

            There is excellent and hype free advice here from many who quietly go about their own work, and while it is better to learn from the mistakes of others than from mistakes of your own, nothing beats actually doing it for yourself.

            I'd like to offer my small contribution to this discussion: a detailed how-to report after finding out the hard way. Its linked in my sig and hope you may gain something from my experiences with John Jonas program and the onlinejobs.ph website.

            At some point you simply must stop reading the forums, put down your pdfs, quit listening to courses and just do it. I suspect that the potential $2000 customers for this course might benefit more quickly from dropping $200 and trying outsourcing for themselves. Give it a week or so. You will learn more in that time than you imagine.
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            • Originally Posted by kincontrol View Post

              Hi, I just joined actually looking for information on Frank Kern's List Control because I'm expecting that he'll likely be doing a relaunch in the Summer some time. I'm wondering if it really actually did contain more information than other commonly used list building practices and if it was worth the money. Does anyone have experience with this program, would you endorse it and experiences with it that you can share?
              As other people in the program will know, I've used one of the tactics in module 4 to make $15,000 in a week.
              (the whole story was told in the members' area).

              So yes, I did find the program useful.

              Originally Posted by Anonymous Affiliate View Post

              I stopped watching the video when he said "PPC marketing is easily outsourced".

              Anyone who's involved in PPC knows that it's probably the TOP most difficult field in the whole Internet Marketing scene, and certainly not the type of stuff you can outsource to your standard Philippino outsourcer. Only people who truly know WTF they're doing with PPC will be able to run successful Adwords campaigns, and you will NOT get those guys at $3/hour, or even $20/hour.
              He never said in the video that you had to outsource your PPC to a Philippino fisherman.

              He just said you could outsource it.
              One of my mastermind members pays $450 a month to get a company to deal with his PPC, which in turn makes him about $30,000.

              I'd say this is pretty impressive.

              Sebastien
              Signature
              I'm a Product Launch Manager, personally trained by Jeff Walker.

              Click here to get a free video training on How to Make Money from your List.
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              • Profile picture of the author Ryan D
                Banned
                I wonder if this launch isn't going as well as they thought.

                I got an email on friday that said it's "closing soon".

                Then an email saturday night saying it's closing in 24 hours,

                then another this morning saying this is the final day,

                then another at 6PM saying only a few hours,

                and then another just now saying only 1 hour left.

                Maybe all launches send that many emails out, but I don't recall getting hit that many times by the person launching. Usually it's just mass chaos from all the affiliates.
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                • Profile picture of the author Marty S
                  Originally Posted by Ryan D View Post

                  I wonder if this launch isn't going as well as they thought.

                  I got an email on friday that said it's "closing soon".

                  Then an email saturday night saying it's closing in 24 hours,

                  then another this morning saying this is the final day,

                  then another at 6PM saying only a few hours,

                  and then another just now saying only 1 hour left.

                  Maybe all launches send that many emails out, but I don't recall getting hit that many times by the person launching. Usually it's just mass chaos from all the affiliates.
                  Sad to say, I actually had to unsubscribe from John's list today. It was too much really. Ranks of desperation now.
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      • Profile picture of the author HighPowerSites
        In the outsource force demo videos, John mentioned a website to find workers from the Phillipines. Does any one remember the site?
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      • Profile picture of the author Love2KnowU
        Originally Posted by Ryce View Post

        From Someone With:
        Posts: 4
        Thanks: 0
        Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

        Should we listen to you :confused:

        I'm sorry...but this was too funny! :p
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  • Profile picture of the author MIB Mastermind
    Hell it's taken me 18 long hard months to get to where I am with PPC, so I sure as hell ain't trusting somenone I don't no, who is half way around the world and is pretty likely to blow a rather large whole in my credit card.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ernie Lo
    How on earth can someone make a massive $2000 product on outsourcing beats me.

    Who is this targeted to? We already know outsourcing is a good idea....

    For example ...do you know how many articles you could get written for a whopping $2000?

    at least 500 articles even more!

    Throw out 500 quality articles in a decent niche and you'll make plenty of money probably enough to quit your job too....and not be -$2000.

    Ah well best of luck to John, I'm sure it's a great product and no offense meant but just a little confused why people would buy this one for that price tag.
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  • Profile picture of the author HighPowerSites
    I agree JamesStan81 and I welcome some emails but not multiple times everyday. That's all I was saying.
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    • Profile picture of the author JackBenson
      You could probably learn a lot about outsourcing by spending $2000 on outsourcers, and get a lot of work done too...
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  • Profile picture of the author bfas
    Video #2 had good info, pretty much enough to not need much more, certainly not $2k more.

    My biggest issue, aside from the price, is that I bought TS2 (Traffic Secrets 2), which was pretty much abandoned after a few months. Granted all the original material was provided, but part of the 'pitch' was John's involvement in the forum.

    Not only did that dissipate very quickly, but aside from one 'assistant', there was no input at all from the company. And the assistant's input dwindled to nothing pretty quickly as well. The forum is essentially dead now, maybe a dozen posts in months.

    Plus, while one of the big selling points was 'lifetime upgrades - buy once and we commit to you for the long haul', when a new version showed up and began to be marketed, no word to anyone who bought TS2. Only after pestering support was anyone even provided a link.

    The net result - and I would think top marketers would be more astute on this point - is that I bought a John Reese product, and while it was good, I ended up with the feeling of "say anything to get the sale" with little or no concern for customers after-the-fact.
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    • Profile picture of the author Marty S
      Originally Posted by bfas View Post

      My biggest issue, aside from the price, is that I bought TS2 (Traffic Secrets 2), which was pretty much abandoned after a few months. Granted all the original material was provided, but part of the 'pitch' was John's involvement in the forum.

      Not only did that dissipate very quickly, but aside from one 'assistant', there was no input at all from the company. And the assistant's input dwindled to nothing pretty quickly as well. The forum is essentially dead now, maybe a dozen posts in months.

      bfas,

      I went through this as well at the same time, and brought John to task on this in his own forum. I was rather much shot down for even daring to question his lack of participation there, even though that was a BIG part of the sales pitch - by a handful of JR loyalists. So I swallowed that pill.

      Also, I don't know if you noticed in the first video bfas, but John specifically mentioned - no BOASTED, that during his launch of TS2 he was actually in Pamplona Spain while others were running the launch for him. Well the TS2 launch was a complete and utter administrative mess. Not in terms of sales obviously, but the deliverability of those sales, where buyers were basically told overnight, it was stretched to 2 and 3 weeks as a result of "packaging" problems etc.

      The negative feedback due to management's slow and inconsistent responses to the ordering problems eventually resulted in John REMOVING the blog that he had set up for TS2 customers. Needless to say it was overloaded with negative feedback. There was further shock and outrage when a photo surfaced on the internet showing JR having a beer and partying like a college student in Pamplona during the launch fiasco of TS2, all the while saying he was working hard at solving the issues.

      So yeah, that outsourcing example gave me quite a chuckle, and since then, no matter it be Frank, John, Andy, Mike etc... I rarely give the benefit of the doubt anymore.
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      • Profile picture of the author Writer
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        bfas,
        The negative feedback due to management's slow and inconsistent responses to the ordering problems eventually resulted in John's REMOVAL of a blog that he had set for TS2 customers.
        Rich Schefren's Founders' Club is exactly the same. The feedback in the forums were so bad, they took down the forums and if you asked support, why? They stated they're were going to revamp it... never happened. BTW, my recent post on Schefren's Founders Club was struck down by the mods just by giving an honest review. Obviously, one of the mods is a fan.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
        Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

        bfas,

        I went through this as well at the same time, and brought John to task on this in his own forum. I was rather much shot down for even daring to question his lack of participation there, even though that was a BIG part of the sales pitch - by a handful of JR loyalists. So I swallowed that pill.

        Also, I don't know if you noticed in the first video bfas, but John specifically mentioned - no BOASTED, that during his launch of TS2 he was actually in Pamplona Spain while others were running the launch for him. Well the TS2 launch was a complete and utter administrative mess. Not in terms of sales obviously, but the deliverability of those sales, where buyers were basically told overnight, it was stretched to 2 and 3 weeks as a result of "packaging" problems etc.

        The negative feedback due to management's slow and inconsistent responses to the ordering problems eventually resulted in John REMOVING the blog that he had set up for TS2 customers. Needless to say it was overloaded with negative feedback. There was further shock and outrage when a photo surfaced on the internet showing JR having a beer and partying like a college student in Pamplona during the launch fiasco of TS2, all the while saying he was working hard at solving the issues.

        So yeah, that outsourcing example gave me quite a chuckle, and since then, no matter it be Frank, John, Andy, Mike etc... I rarely give the benefit of the doubt anymore.
        Marty,

        I just wanted to say you have every right to have the opinion of me that you do. Am I disappointed that you lost respect for me, etc. especially since you were a good customer of me? Of course.

        But I did want to address some of the things you mentioned, if you don't mind. As far as the TS2 Forum was concerned, you're right, I stopped participating there. If you recall, the volume of posts on the forum nearly stopped. The forum never really took off -- it's very hard to get a private forum going with regular activity when there are so few people that have access to it. Because most people don't post on forums anyway. So that forum never really had much activity. I posted in the beginning but after a few weeks it was barely used. And when some people asked questions, others quickly answered and helped them before I even had a chance to. So there was nothing for me left to answer. So I often wouldn't just post and say, "yeah what he said." Most of that group of customers were busy using the plans in the course and they didn't use the forum much. That's why I stopped posting there as well. The forum was literally inactive. However, in hindsight, I do think you're right. I probably should have still made an effort to interact with the few that on occasion would post something where they wanted MY input as well. I wish I would have just given you my email address and had you contact me directly if questions came up. Because it was hard to know when I needed to go back to the forum because the activity was few and far between.

        As far as the TS2 shipping issues where concerned (from the launch week sales) and as I stated in several emails to all of our customers, that was completely out of our control. Our fulfillment company ran into some problems with the course (the entire project was a custom one; from the case to how we put the physical pieces together) and they miscalculated the estimated shipping time for the first group of shipments. Was I on a vacation with friends during that time? YES, I WAS. I never made any attempt to hide this fact. I blogged about much of my trip. The fact of the matter is it wouldn't have mattered if I was at home or on the moon during that time -- I couldn't do a single thing about the shipment delays but to wait for the fulfillment company to do their job; which I emailed all of our customers multiple times to keep them informed of the new estimated shipping times.

        But anyway, Marty, like I said, you have every right to feel the way you do. I never said I was perfect and I do make mistakes -- I'm human. And I do agree that the TS2 Forum thing should have been managed better.

        -John
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  • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
    How on earth can someone make a massive $2000 product on outsourcing beats me.
    There is a tendency to do this currently. I already said he probably did it simply because he CAN and he is Mr "Big Guru" and affiliates will be all over him BECAUSE of the price. Free promo and advertising. Heck i wish i had a "big name" and could put any price tag on ANY product and KNEW that everyone and their mama will pick it up.

    Secondly, i can see marketers doing this because they simply think:

    "Heck..its a real bad economy, not many buying...so instead of selling something for $77 let's make it $2000. Less units being sold but at a premium price: Cha Ching! Overall more Profit! Cha Ching, Cha Ching!
    Signature
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  • Profile picture of the author Underground SEO
    I'm tempted to purchase one of the courses someday solely out of curiousity! I have never purchased any type of IM course before as I have always done perfectly fine without them, I do struggle to see sometimes how a few DVD's or whatever can be worth thousands of dollars.
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      I was at John's original IM seminar. He over delivered. It cost me 4 or 5 grand to attend. It was worth every penny.

      I've bought quite a few products from John over the years and I see him from time to time.

      John is one of the sharpest guys I know so it didn't take much persuasion to get me to buy Outsource Force.

      I'm looking forward to learning from John's mistakes as well as his successes.

      I recently had one of my customers have a complaint with John.

      If you saw the way John handled it, you'd be blown away.

      I believe he really cares about his customers.

      I'm looking for some great content from Mr. Reese and I know I won't be disappointed.

      Peace.

      Harlan
      Signature

      Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
      Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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  • Profile picture of the author Chris Faraday
    Sure there's good value here - but nothing compared to Main Street Marketing Machine - clear franchise powerhouse business from the heart versus - you to can easily outsource all your pain for a few guys at a few bucks an hour.

    Reality is what we've heard - if you can hire brilliantly leverage a proven & improving system (flow charts, mind-maps videos)
    You have a shot - think Filipinos love hearing their soul for sale for $2??? From a millionaire guru no less.

    Heart & Soul comes from a leader (YOU)

    A loyal VA Director (in search of one myself - right now)
    Three areas I consider:
    Area 1 - Design, branding & Video
    Area 2 - Technical, Traffic, SEO, RSS, Coding -
    Area 3 - Editorial, Articles, Blogs, slide-shows, reports

    Why not support John Jonas & Jeff Mills - they are the leaders
    OnlinePHJobs looks pretty good

    $2000 is power a team for a month

    If you ever spend 2K - use Main Street Marketing as a benchmark
    One of the first comprehensive & timely & integrated programs I have yet to see. Hope this helps
    Signature

    Super-Conscious Affiliate

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  • Profile picture of the author vinlulvie
    hi all,

    if i want to hire a graphic designer for banner creation, where i should look for one?
    and is the philippino good for doing graphic design work?

    Thanks

    Vin
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  • Profile picture of the author mark33
    I have learned a lot from a $5 course. And I have learned a lot from a $2000 course.

    The way I look at it, is if the course helps me make twice as much as I spent, then it was a good investment. If the course sucks, I'll ask for my money back. I'm sure that John has a good return policy.

    And... you do want to learn from the best. Is John the best? I don't know.
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  • Profile picture of the author Buzzin
    Yet another $1,997 product, and people still buy it.

    Man! If people would stop buying these ridiculously overpriced products, the creators would be forced to reduce the price, and give more value.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mountainbird
      I purchased the "Outsource Force" Course from John Reese and I'm "blown away". But not as you think.

      I purchased it more then two weeks ago. My experience is as follows:

      ...

      Update 9 June:

      We have resolved our little issues and I got my account back - many thanks to John.

      John is really a nice guy - now I know for sure.

      Meanwhile the content of the course is really great. After the course is finished in a few weeks I will post a more detailed review based on my own experiences.

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      • Profile picture of the author Ryce
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Mountainbird View Post

        I purchased the "Outsource Force" Course from John Reese and I'm "blown away". But not as you think.

        I purchased it more then two weeks ago. My experience is as follows:

        The content (some short videos) is very basic. I mean really very basic. Other marketers give more knowledge for free. But this is a course which costs $2000!

        Yesterday and today I posted two complaints within that (very primitive) community system. And with a very surprising consequence:

        I got immediately cancelled my account with a personal email from John Reese which says that he doesn't like the critisism and therefore he just cancelled my account.

        Isn't that amazing?
        Did you get a refund?
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        • Profile picture of the author Mountainbird
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          Did you get a refund?
          Not yet because the cancellation was just this afternoon.

          There was an exchange of emails between John Reese and me and he says he will refund.
          Signature

          :)

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      • Profile picture of the author Marty S
        Originally Posted by Mountainbird View Post

        I purchased the "Outsource Force" Course from John Reese and I'm "blown away". But not as you think.

        I purchased it more then two weeks ago. My experience is as follows:

        The content (some short videos) is very basic. I mean really very basic. Other marketers give more knowledge for free. But this is a course which costs $2000!

        Yesterday and today I posted two complaints within that (very primitive) community system. And with a very surprising consequence:

        I got immediately cancelled my account with a personal email from John Reese which says that he doesn't like the critisism and therefore he just cancelled my account.

        Isn't that amazing?
        I thought this was going to be one of those "planted" testimonials when I read "blown away".

        Now I am "blown away"!

        John Reese tried to set up a similar "community" forum before with TS2 of which I was a member and posts that "went against the grain" were immediately jumped on by JR worshipers too, but yours is rather more alarming.

        You would think that the more you pay for a product the more right you have to express disappointment with said product. Obviously, you are better off without it.

        Anyway its kind of like I said in another post about these huge launches. I just try and get as much out of them as I can without buying them. They are just so over-priced imo, because that's simply what these guys think the market can bare, and not necessarily what it's worth.
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      • Profile picture of the author GeorgR.
        Originally Posted by Mountainbird View Post

        I purchased the "Outsource Force" Course from John Reese and I'm "blown away". But not as you think.

        I purchased it more then two weeks ago. My experience is as follows:

        The content (some short videos) is very basic. I mean really very basic. Other marketers give more knowledge for free. But this is a course which costs $2000!

        Yesterday and today I posted two complaints within that (very primitive) community system. And with a very surprising consequence:

        I got immediately cancelled my account with a personal email from John Reese which says that he doesn't like the critisism and therefore he just cancelled my account.

        Isn't that amazing?
        Nice way to treat customers who spend $2000 on a product. Wow.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mountainbird
          Originally Posted by GeorgR. View Post

          Nice way to treat customers who spend $2000 on a product. Wow.
          Yes, very nice. I was really surprised

          For me the $2000 price tag is not an issue in any way. I always likes to pay good money for a good product or course. But the way I was treated is really frustrating for me.

          Now I have to search for an alternative.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
        Originally Posted by Mountainbird View Post

        I purchased the "Outsource Force" Course from John Reese and I'm "blown away". But not as you think.

        I purchased it more then two weeks ago. My experience is as follows:

        The content (some short videos) is very basic. I mean really very basic. Other marketers give more knowledge for free. But this is a course which costs $2000!

        Yesterday and today I posted two complaints within that (very primitive) community system. And with a very surprising consequence:

        I got immediately cancelled my account with a personal email from John Reese which says that he doesn't like the critisism and therefore he just cancelled my account.

        Isn't that amazing?
        Actually what's amazing is that you aren't telling everyone the entire story. And, of course, it doesn't surprise me that you are doing so with an ANONYMOUS USERNAME.

        The fact of the matter is you complained MULTIPLE TIMES about the same issue. You were upset that the content released for the first half of Module 2 wasn't what you were expecting. I told you that I had to go at a slower pace initially because of all the beginners in the class - ironically, it's the same thing Harlan Kilstein complained to me about in a private email. That he was really hoping for more advanced stuff by that point; a fair complaint from a more advanced level marketer.

        I told you what the situation was. I told you (and everyone else) to be patient until the end of the module as I had to begin at a slower pace for the beginners in the group.

        You complained multiple times about the same issue. You posted another complaint that the other lessons weren't added yet as it was 8PM your time on that day. I politely replied to you and told you it was 11am my time and I was working on putting up that videos later that day. I even put a little smiley face to let you know it was a light-hearted response. Your reply? You snapped at me AGAIN and basically said you didn't care what local time I was on and that I shouldn't have sold the product to someone in another timezone (or something to that effect).

        I tried multiple times to appease you. I responded directly to your criticism. I clearly explained to everyone (just like I did with Harlan) what the situation was. But apparently you still weren't happy and just kept posting your complaints and wouldn't be patient like I asked you to multiple times. Your non-stop posting of negative comments started upsetting other students. More than one person posted publicly in our portal that the repeated comments like that weren't constructive in any way.

        My decision was to issue you a full refund and part ways. I didn't feel you were right for the program since you were so unhappy. I clearly stated MULTIPLE TIMES that feedback and even constructive criticism was fine (you weren't the first person to do so). But I had no choice but to look out for the entire group as a whole and remove you when your REPEATED NEGATIVITY wasn't adding anything constructive to the group.

        Many business owners might have just "put up with it" and kept your $2,000. I, on the other hand, made a choice that I felt was the best for my other customers and I decided to just give you your money back and part ways. And I stand by that decision.

        * And, yes, if anyone is curious, this is ME personally. I am using a new username because I no longer use the email address from my old username and can't retrieve the password.

        -John
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        • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
          Originally Posted by JohnReese2 View Post


          * And, yes, if anyone is curious, this is ME personally. I am using a new username because I no longer use the email address from my old username and can't retrieve the password.

          -John
          John, just drop Paul a quick PM, I'm sure he will change the e-mail for
          you rather than starting from scratch.

          All the best.
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  • Profile picture of the author Doctore
    I left a comment on his blog when his 2nd video came out (during pre launch), where I disagreed with a couple of his comments in his video, but I gave valid reasons and then just said "based on my experience" and did my best to make it very positive knowing its on his blog.. however it was never approved by his moderators.

    It seems like they go out of their way to avoid ANY criticism.
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  • Profile picture of the author Buzzin
    [DELETED]
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  • Profile picture of the author pearsonbrown
    MODERATOR

    Keep this thread about THE PRODUCT Talking about the contents, the price and the forum are acceptable. Bashing any product creator is not acceptable here. Respect Allen's rules or take the consequences.

    Pearson
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonspurlock
    Wow, this is a great forum. I never knew a place where so many people would take the words out of my mouth.

    In my disclaimer, I will admit to using one of John's tips in the videos (i.e. using Manila craigslist to find a graphics person).

    Otherwise, it had to be the most boring videos I've ever seen. Brendon Bruchard and Eben Pagan have recently put out GREAT "long form" videos that I've got a lot of value from....

    ...John's -- not so much.

    And yes, I'm one of those people that will always click ahead to the order page to see what price they're charging before they even make their pitch...and when I saw $2K I was shocked to say the least.

    I have heard this mentioned yet...but did anyone else sense some desperation when he continued to push, push, push in his successive emails saying, "it's almost gone...you can pay through PayPal...you can make installment payments...it's almost closed...special bonus...no, really!"

    I thought John lost a lot of cool points on this one.

    And if you're reading this buddy, I still love ya -- and I'll keep consuming your stuff. And thanks for the craigslist tip.

    just sayin'
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    • Profile picture of the author Harlan
      I bought Outsource Force based on my experience with John.

      I thought Week one was a little basic and I sent John and email. He told me to hold on.

      I did.

      In week 2, John blew everyone away in his section on recruitment and hiring.

      Plus he gave all his agreements showing exactly what to send.

      Swipe emails for hiring.

      In just week 2, John is already exceeding expectations.

      I have bought other outsourcing programs, John's Outsource Force is crushing them and it's just week 2.

      I can't wait to see where he's going.

      Harlan
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      • Profile picture of the author Mountainbird
        Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

        ...In week 2, John blew everyone away in his section on recruitment and hiring....
        I believe you. I'm only upset how he's treating some of his customers.
        Signature

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        • Profile picture of the author Tom B
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Mountainbird View Post

          I believe you. I'm only upset how he's treating some of his customers.

          Just to get this straight...

          Did you go through the whole course before you started bitching about the content?
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          • Profile picture of the author Marty S
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            Just to get this straight...

            Did you go through the whole course before you started bitching about the content?
            Just to get this straight.....

            I have been in such "timed released" programs before, and since I PAID in full, bitching is exactly the the thing to do, because you are instantly caught in a trap of being underwhelmed while having paid full price up front.

            Its easy to offer a money-back guarantee, but when you string along content without actually having impressed from day one, you can bloody well expect, and deserve some bitching - from me anyway.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

              Just to get this straight.....

              I have been in such "timed released" programs before, and since I PAID in full, bitching is exactly the the thing to do, because you are instantly caught in a trap of being underwhelmed while having paid full price up front.

              Its easy to offer a money-back guarantee, but when you string along content without actually having impressed from day one, you can bloody well expect, and deserve some bitching - from me anyway.

              Then you just refund. I still think it is unfair to bitch unless you have been through the whole course.

              Refund if you don't like the content up until the guarantee date. But to tell me you have a right to bitch about the whole course is absurd when you haven't been through the whole course.

              But then again some people just like to complain about people making lots of money and not delivering all the content they think they should get (maybe jealousy) even when they haven't gone through the whole course.

              I have seen you do a lot of complaining in this thread. Have you purchased the course or just wanted to jump on the bandwagon?
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              • Profile picture of the author Marty S
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                I have seen you do a lot of complaining in this thread. Have you purchased the course or just wanted to jump on the bandwagon?
                If you call complaining my past experience with John's products, and what I surmised from the intro videos then I guess that's what is it. I am just not so easily impressed of GURUs just because or his past earnings of circle of friends.

                If I did have a beef though, its that its that there is probably some good content available, but I think these Video Boss productions are all fabulously over-priced. But, I would love to hear some realistic reviews of this product.

                In the end, if someone purchased, they have every right to step up and be heard.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mountainbird
            Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

            Just to get this straight...

            Did you go through the whole course before you started bitching about the content?
            Sorry, but I did not start bitching. I didn't even complain about the quality. I only made a complaint of the late release of the module 2. For me it was wednesday evening and I didn't see much of mudule 2 which should be released on monday.

            It's crazy to be suspended from a already upfront paid course because of a complaint.

            What I've learnt is DO NOT COMPLAIN OR CRITICISE in an online course. It just remembers me on a quite different country.
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            • Profile picture of the author Tom B
              Banned
              Originally Posted by Mountainbird View Post

              Sorry, but I did not start bitching. I only made a complaint of the late release of the module 2. For me it was wednesday evening and I didn't see much of mudule 2 which should be released on monday.

              It's crazy to be suspended from a already upfront paid course because of a complaint.

              What I've learnt is DO NOT COMPLAIN OR CRITICISE in an online course. It just remembers me on a quite different country.

              Well, I have refunded a few people (without their asking) when their complaints become borderline abusive.

              First, he should have told you before purchasing whether it was a time released product. If he didn't then I would bitch as well.

              If he did and you purchased then you have no right to complain about that.

              If the content is not up to your standards then refund before the guarantee period.

              We don't know how you lodged your complaint so I can't comment on his customer support. I do know how some people think it is their right to abuse the support channels because they purchased a product.

              I am not saying you did that but we really don't know the whole story.
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              • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                Well, I have refunded a few people (without their asking) when their complaints become borderline abusive.

                First, he should have told you before purchasing whether it was a time released product. If he didn't then I would bitch as well.

                If he did and you purchased then you have no right to complain about that.

                If the content is not up to your standards then refund before the guarantee period.

                We don't know how you lodged your complaint so I can't comment on his customer support. I do know how some people think it is their right to abuse the support channels because they purchased a product.

                I am not saying you did that but we really don't know the whole story.
                He knew it was a time-released product - and part of the product was released late which is why he complained.

                And that in itself is not a reason to request a refund.

                However, if the first 2 modules out of an 8 module course (for example) are crap (for example), would it not be safe to assume that the other 6 will be underwhelming as well?

                Judging by what Mountainbird has told us, it would seem that John's customer support team has been unfair to him, not the other way around.
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                • Profile picture of the author Tom B
                  Banned
                  Originally Posted by CurtisN View Post

                  He knew it was a time-released product - and part of the product was released late which is why he complained.

                  And that in itself is not a reason to request a refund.

                  However, if the first 2 modules out of an 8 module course (for example) are crap (for example), would it not be safe to assume that the other 6 will be underwhelming as well?

                  Judging by what Mountainbird has told us, it would seem that John's customer support team has
                  been unfair to him, not the other way around.
                  Nope, it isn't safe to assume the rest is crap. Normally, courses go through some preparation for more advanced topics. Sometimes the prep work is boring to some and a learning experience to others.

                  It seems I have a different view on courses. I normally look for something I can implement that will give me a better ROI. I just need one thing and most courses that I have purchased have given me that.

                  I did not purchase this course but am curious. It is just difficult to figure out anything when people who haven't purchased are throwing around their opinions, about the course, without purchasing it.

                  I have dealt with many of people on the internet and knowing from experience that what they say isn't necessarily the truth. It really depends on how he lodged his complaint whether support was unfair or not.

                  Sorry for the off topic stuff Pearson and Ken.
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                  • Profile picture of the author CurtisN
                    This is way off-topic, but I'm writing a short philosophy paper right now and I'm arguing against experience

                    But yeah, neither of us have bought Outsource Force. And we both have our opinions...which don't necessarily differ.

                    I don't like it when people unfairly complain about products and/or product creators, but I equally dislike it when customers are given the shaft.

                    Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                    Nope, it isn't safe to assume the rest is crap. Normally, courses go through some preparation for more advanced topics. Sometimes the prep work is boring to some and a learning experience to others.

                    It seems I have a different view on courses. I normally look for something I can implement that will give me a better ROI. I just need one thing and most courses that I have purchased have given me that.

                    I did not purchase this course but am curious. It is just difficult to figure out anything when people who haven't purchased are throwing around their opinions, about the course, without purchasing it.

                    I have dealt with many of people on the internet and knowing from experience that what they say isn't necessarily the truth. It really depends on how he lodged his complaint whether support was unfair or not.

                    Sorry for the off topic stuff Pearson and Ken.
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                    • Profile picture of the author abhinav
                      Originally Posted by CurtisN View Post

                      This is way off-topic, but I'm writing a short philosophy paper right now and I'm arguing against experience

                      But yeah, neither of us have bought Outsource Force. And we both have our opinions...which don't necessarily differ.

                      I don't like it when people unfairly complain about products and/or product creators, but I equally dislike it when customers are given the shaft.
                      I have bought the course and at moment its on Module 3 Training, Hiring and Evaluating.

                      I will be writing a detailed reviews and my thoughts soon.

                      Till, then anyone interested in discussing over IM, be my guest. PM me with your contact details.
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              • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
                Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

                Well, I have refunded a few people (without their asking) when their complaints become borderline abusive.

                First, he should have told you before purchasing whether it was a time released product. If he didn't then I would bitch as well.

                If he did and you purchased then you have no right to complain about that.

                If the content is not up to your standards then refund before the guarantee period.

                We don't know how you lodged your complaint so I can't comment on his customer support. I do know how some people think it is their right to abuse the support channels because they purchased a product.

                I am not saying you did that but we really don't know the whole story.
                Thomas, you hit the nail on the head. And for the record, the complaints were not lodged with our customer support department (which they could have been). They were posted publicly in our community learning portal where our students are communicating with each other to partner together on projects, to share workers, and give feedback to each other on taking action and following the curriculum. Now certainly some people have posted some feedback, suggestions, and yes even criticism in that portal, and that's fine, but with this particular person is AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. At some point you have to draw the line and I decided to do just that.

                -John
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  • Profile picture of the author FiverrGuru
    $2000 for a templates of contracts and emails to send seems like a really good deal... not
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Originally Posted by FiverrGuru View Post

      $2000 for a templates of contracts and emails to send seems like a really good deal... not

      Have you purchased the course to know that is all there is?
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      • Profile picture of the author FiverrGuru
        Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

        Have you purchased the course to know that is all there is?
        The launch didn't impress me - I already use everything he teaches in the videos and I think the gurus actually give away their best content during the launch... besides I've had all of my templates and emails written to send off to people that work for me some time ago.

        I stopped buying and checking out products just out of curiosity or the feeling that "I might need that some day" - usually when I need something it comes to me at the right time... via our friendly universe

        It'd be VERY cool to find out one or at most two REAL golden nuggets each of the people who went through the program got out of it, so please share if you're one of the lucky girls/guys.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    For the record, and I'm not taking sides as I'm not in full receipt
    of all the facts, but I've refunded without discussion people
    who simply caused mayhem in our private forums.

    We had a guy a couple of months ago, who in the middle of a
    testimonials section on our forum with over 500 positive
    testimonials made a thread along the lines of "this is a scam".

    When we asked him what part was a scam , he ranted on about
    not being able to find the material he had ordered.

    When we and a dozen members jokingly pointed out the
    3" long " Download Your E-Book Here" button which was
    located 2" above his post, he went in to a full scale
    swearing phyco fest.

    I didn't even bother discussing it with him.

    We refunded him , kicked him out of the members area
    and blocked his e-mail and IP from our system.

    Some customers just ain't worth it and it's the vendors
    prerogative to get rid of them without entering into a
    war and peace back and forth with them.

    We have business to run, time is of the essence, while
    every customer feels they are owed the world, it's simply
    not practical and often fruitless to spend much time on the
    matter.

    It's nothing personal, it's just you can't allow one person
    to take up your time which inturn makes your paying member
    suffer.

    As I say, I'm not taking sides on this one without knowing more,
    I'm just asking the poster to understand that once you get past
    a tipping point in terms of hassle, it's just easier to refund,
    and get on with something more constructive.

    You just can't please all the people, all of the time.
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  • Profile picture of the author David Hooper
    Haven't seen this product, but if it does what it says, I'd say it's worth $2000. Outsourcing will allow you to get more done and grow your business in a way you can't possibly do on your own.

    Sure, you could learn a lot of this stuff on your own...eventually. That's likely to cost you $2000 (or more) though and it will definitely cost you time and frustration, so why not shortcut that?
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    • Profile picture of the author abhinav
      Originally Posted by David Hooper View Post

      Haven't seen this product, but if it does what it says, I'd say it's worth $2000. Outsourcing will allow you to get more done and grow your business in a way you can't possibly do on your own.

      Sure, you could learn a lot of this stuff on your own...eventually. That's likely to cost you $2000 (or more) though and it will definitely cost you time and frustration, so why not shortcut that?
      I took the course so that I can cut the time of my research into finding solutions relating to outsourcing and lots more which John promised to provide with.

      Along with that I have also taken courses from ReplaceMyself, Outsource Method, The Perfect Process, SourceControl, etc.

      These courses provide you a shortcut to cut the learning curve by simply paying a price to find the best. Ofcourse, as John said above, he has to make it Noobie friendly and I have been impressed with the work so far, since learning his course doesnt takes much of my time and I get things ready in my plate. Which is well worth the efforts put by the author.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ryce
        Originally Posted by abhinav View Post

        I took the course so that I can cut the time of my research into finding solutions relating to outsourcing and lots more which John promised to provide with.

        Along with that I have also taken courses from ReplaceMyself, Outsource Method, The Perfect Process, SourceControl, etc.

        These courses provide you a shortcut to cut the learning curve by simply paying a price to find the best. Ofcourse, as John said above, he has to make it Noobie friendly and I have been impressed with the work so far, since learning his course doesnt takes much of my time and I get things ready in my plate. Which is well worth the efforts put by the author.
        Aby,

        How would you compare all outsource courses you took against one another?
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        • Profile picture of the author cswjohnni
          I first heard of John Reese's outsource force from one webinar from Jeff Mills, and purchased John's product with an iPAD bonus, his course so far is a great value to me, I think John is more into a strategic method of building your internet empire. I also purchased Jeff's outsource course, it is also to me a great value. Jeff mentioned 8 methods to make money and how to outsource these 8 methods. I wrote a quick review of these two programs, feel free to take a look bit.ly/aRBfag
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          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Just for the record, when I have a problem with a course, I go to the source. I went to John and asked him for more meat.

            John answered in detail about the number of newbies in the course and then proceeded to blow everyone away with huge depth.

            I knew when I bought the course, I was dealing with the person who basically got me started as an Internet marketer. His Internet Marketing seminar changed my life.

            John has gone overboard in delivering content like no course I've seen in recent years.

            I've bought many other courses on Outsourcing and they're like, go use oDesk.

            John's course is the deepest I've seen.

            If John ever offers this course again, you'd be a total bozo not to grab it.

            This course was worth every penny and then some.

            Yes, I was already outsourcing but John's course has clarified things for me.

            I'm very happy I bought it.
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            Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
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  • Profile picture of the author personwd
    Banned
    [DELETED]
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    • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
      Originally Posted by personwd View Post

      I stopped watching the video when he said "PPC marketing is easily outsourced".

      .
      Where did he say that?

      Anybody who can make a decent ROI on PPC would have to be
      pretty daft to be working for outsourcing rates - why bother.
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      • Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

        Where did he say that?

        Anybody who can make a decent ROI on PPC would have to be
        pretty daft to be working for outsourcing rates - why bother.
        Being a PPC wiz does not make someone a successful, ambitious, gifted, business owner.

        Correct me if I'm wrong but...
        Basically PPC is just tech, writing 3 lines of copy, and testing/analysing.

        I don't see any reason why it couldn't be outsourced.

        Sebastien
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        • Profile picture of the author Vikram73
          Originally Posted by The French Marketer View Post

          Being a PPC wiz does not make someone a successful, ambitious, gifted, business owner.

          Correct me if I'm wrong but...
          Basically PPC is just tech, writing 3 lines of copy, and testing/analysing.

          I don't see any reason why it couldn't be outsourced.

          Sebastien
          AdWords is a complex and powerful system. You can outsource it but it would be expensive. You need to have a good budget, real website and product to do AdWords correctly.
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        • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
          Originally Posted by The French Marketer View Post

          Being a PPC wiz does not make someone a successful, ambitious, gifted, business owner.
          Nope and nor do you need to be to make money from PPC.

          Correct me if I'm wrong but...
          Basically PPC is just tech, writing 3 lines of copy, and testing/analysing.
          And being an architect is just drawing pictures based on maths.

          Look anything can be boiled down to an essence which belates the
          realities.

          Let me put it to you this way.

          You're running a bunch of campaigns for a guy which are all generating
          a hell of a lot more than you're being paid. Your some Phillipino earning
          $5 and hour and making the guy thousands of dollars.

          How long do you think roughly it will be before this chap opens his own
          account and just mirrors what he does for you, for himself ?

          And more to the point if the guy was capable of finding winning
          campaigns which is a skill all to itself ,why exactly do you think
          he's even going to reply to a job for $5 an hour.

          Yes you can outsource PPC, but the kind of guys that generate ROI
          don't work for pennies, they often have a ton of fees involved and
          even then there's a metric ton of reasons why most people will
          outsource campaign management but rarely are the guys finding
          winning campaigns from scratch.

          Outsourcing is fantastic, no doubt about it, but cheap outsourcing
          tends to favor some jobs over others.
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          • Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

            You're running a bunch of campaigns for a guy which are all generating
            a hell of a lot more than you're being paid.
            Yep. That's called consultancy, and there's a few clever guys who do it... wait... almost all the clever business guys do it !
            Consultancy IS outsourcing.

            Your some Phillipino earning
            $5 and hour and making the guy thousands of dollars.

            How long do you think roughly it will be before this chap opens his own
            account and just mirrors what he does for you, for himself ?
            Let me guess...
            If the guy does not have,say, a hair growth product business, how on earth is he going to replicate what he does for mine ?

            Yes you can outsource PPC, but the kind of guys that generate ROI
            don't work for pennies, they often have a ton of fees involved and
            even then there's a metric ton of reasons why most people will
            outsource campaign management but rarely are the guys finding
            winning campaigns from scratch.
            The truth of the matter is, there ARE companies who specialize in PPC. Just as there are copywriters.

            I don't hire $5 an hour philippinos to run my PPC, but I do outsource it. Costs me about $500 a month so far. Of course I'm expecting ROI from it. Big time.

            Sebastien
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            • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
              Originally Posted by The French Marketer View Post

              Yep. That's called consultancy, and there's a few clever guys who do it... wait... almost all the clever business guys do it !
              Consultancy IS outsourcing.
              Moot

              Let me guess...
              If the guy does not have,say, a hair growth product business, how on earth is he going to replicate what he does for mine ?
              Not the point made, strawman. He can promote any hair growth business with the ROI keywords.

              The truth of the matter is, there ARE companies who specialize in PPC. Just as there are copywriters.
              Indeed, we are talking about cheap outsourcing , that's the product being discussed. When we refer to some guy in the Philipines or "outsourcing rates" it's generally accepted the kind of per hour value we are putting on those jobs.

              I don't hire $5 an hour philippinos to run my PPC, but I do outsource it. Costs me about $500 a month so far. Of course I'm expecting ROI from it. Big time.
              Good luck, you're talking about something different to the kind of service predominantly being discussed in this thread.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
        Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

        Where did he say that?

        Anybody who can make a decent ROI on PPC would have to be
        pretty daft to be working for outsourcing rates - why bother.
        Simon,

        It's a common misconception that PPC can't be outsourced because someone would just "rip off" the winning campaigns. While this might have some merit if it was dealing with only affiliate campaigns, for almost all other PPC campaigns this isn't the case.

        Many people in the Philippines that you can outsource work to are COLLEGE EDUCATED. They are very smart, hard-working people. They can LEARN anything. So you can literally point them to Google's own training for AdWords and Google Analytics and they can get up to speed and be capable of managing someone's PPC campaigns -- such as promoting a company's products and services.

        They aren't likely to just "rip someone off" after managing PPC campaigns for a number of reasons...

        1. The PH culture is not very entrepreneurial. They like to work hard at a job and feel proud of their work. And even if they were entrepreneurial, they don't have the startup capital to be able to take a risk to try and compete with someone. Many of these people are paying $75/month for their rent. They can't afford to lose $100 in a PPC test campaign.

        2. Before you have someone running your PPC campaigns, it's best that you have worked with them on other projects first. It's very easy to realize who is trustworthy or not. In fact, it's easy to become close FRIENDS with many people you have working for you as you are taking care of their entire family -- and they have a lot of loyalty to you because of that.

        3. If you treat your workers well (which is what my teaching is all about) you're constantly giving them bonuses and pay raises as they earn it. We're not just talking about paying someone only $2/hour and they never have a chance to make more money no matter how hard they work. So essentially they become mini-business-partners in your company. They know if they help you succeed THEY succeed and get more money. It's a WIN WIN for everyone.

        There are plenty of people capable of managing PPC campaigns for you. In fact, thousands of them are doing it right now for others.

        * There are also lots of other techniques you can use from a 'security' aspect -- like not having any single person have access to the entire pipeline of cashflow. i.e. they don't have access to the ClickBank account stats or other accounts, so while they may see 'some' conversion data, they don't know exactly how much money is being made.

        -John Reese
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        • Profile picture of the author Mountainbird
          Originally Posted by JohnReese2 View Post

          It's a common misconception that PPC can't be outsourced because someone would just "rip off" the winning campaigns...
          Thanks a lot for this very helpful statement.
          Signature

          :)

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        • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
          Originally Posted by JohnReese2 View Post

          Simon,

          It's a common misconception that PPC can't be outsourced because someone would just "rip off" the winning campaigns.
          I actually had exactly this happen John, about 4 years ago, it's
          not a misconception , does it happen ALL the time, of course not,
          does it happen, can it happen, are you at risk of it, YES. I should
          also say it's not my only area of concern in offshore PPC outsourcing.

          You're far safer with some proper PPC management firm based in the
          UK, US, Canada etc. They are trained internally and at length by
          a team already experienced with PPC, they have checks and measures in
          place and confidentiality contracts in place that actually have
          some worth and can be enforced, they are paid very well and have
          far less inclination to do anything nefarious etc. They are kept up
          to date on all changes in PPC because the entire office does that
          as a business professionally.

          While this might have some merit if it was dealing with only affiliate campaigns, for almost all other PPC campaigns this isn't the case.
          True, it becomes less of an issue on campaigns where the revenue
          isn't clearly related to an initial sale, ie list building etc. You still
          have the conversion reports to hide however and if you do that
          then the trade off , is you have to hand hold further because
          they can't know on their own which adgroups and campaigns to
          continue working in.

          Many people in the Philippines that you can outsource work to are COLLEGE EDUCATED. They are very smart, hard-working people. .
          John, just for the record, I have 2 full time VA's and one part time.
          I'm very aware of how well educated they are, but also of the
          pros and cons.

          They can LEARN anything
          Kinda, sorta. PPC isn't just about "learning" something, it requires a feel,
          an understanding of a market, experience to craft the right ad copy etc.

          So you can literally point them to Google's own training for AdWords and Google Analytics and they can get up to speed and be capable of managing someone's PPC campaigns -- such as promoting a company's products and services.
          John, just to be clear, you're saying you have outsourcers who you just
          point to a Googles Adwords training pages , give them a login, say "go
          at it guys" and then sit back as they make you a nice ROI.

          Seriously, some of the most experienced PPC'ers on the planet lose money
          on campaigns.

          Can it happen, yes but with a vast amount more
          input and time and care than a flippant statement belies.

          Manage existing campaigns yes, but create, research and generate
          profitable PPC campaigns from the ground up after reading some
          adwords generic information.....

          They aren't likely to just "rip someone off" after managing PPC campaigns for a number of reasons...

          1. The PH culture is not very entrepreneurial.
          That's a pretty generic, and potentially insulting comment, John.
          There's millions of Philipino business owners who would disagree with you.

          Most business owners start by working for somebody else, learning
          skils and then starting their own business.

          They are also apparently "very smart" and "can LEARN anything", yet
          they can't take your campaigns and translate them to a new account ?

          You don't have to be very entrepreneurial to open a new Adwords
          account and copy the campaigns across.

          Am I saying, all would do it, no, am I saying it happens and it's utterly
          within the capabilities to do so, yes of course.

          They like to work hard at a job and feel proud of their work. And even if they were entrepreneurial, they don't have the startup capital to be able to take a risk to try and compete with someone. Many of these people are paying $75/month for their rent. They can't afford to lose $100 in a PPC test campaign.
          Ye but John, they arn't taking any risk, they don't copy losing campaigns,
          they simply take the ones generating a ROI,there's no fear for them of losing
          $100.00

          2. Before you have someone running your PPC campaigns, it's best that you have worked with them on other projects first. It's very easy to realize who is trustworthy or not. In fact, it's easy to become close FRIENDS with many people you have working for you as you are taking care of their entire family -- and they have a lot of loyalty to you because of that.
          Good point, well made and I agree entirely with it on many levels.

          3. If you treat your workers well (which is what my teaching is all about) you're constantly giving them bonuses and pay raises as they earn it. We're not just talking about paying someone only $2/hour and they never have a chance to make more money no matter how hard they work. So essentially they become mini-business-partners in your company. They know if they help you succeed THEY succeed and get more money. It's a WIN WIN for everyone.
          Again, good point, but doesn't remove the risk entirely, and your advert
          for this product DID talk about those kind of rates. Obviously is you're paying
          serious rates and you get the very best of the best then yes of course
          at that point things become more realistic. I still don't buy you just wang
          them a link to Adwords FAQ and they become a PPC guru, heck we have
          guys like Gauher training people who still lose money.

          There are plenty of people capable of managing PPC campaigns for you. In fact, thousands of them are doing it right now for others.
          Managing existing campaigns and generating brand new ones from the ground up
          that generate a ROI are very different.

          There are also lots of other techniques you can use from a 'security' aspect -- like not having any single person have access to the entire pipeline of cashflow. i.e. they don't have access to the ClickBank account stats or other accounts, so while they may see 'some' conversion data, they don't know exactly how much money is being made.
          John, yeah sometimes, that would be applicable but generally they have to see the
          conversion data clearly or else how would they be able to tweak the campaign.

          It's impossible to fly blind on PPC and generate a ROI. If they arn't using Google,
          they need Prosper or something similar, and that's no small feat to understand either.

          I can see what your saying on a per lead basis without a set value but on any
          typical resale product, you have to set the conversion value to get reports worth a jot.

          Look I'm not saying you can't outsource PPC management, what I'm saying is that
          in the traditional outsourcing sense, and you're program cwas sold on talking
          about paying people very low hourly wages, that saying to somebody "oh go read
          these Adwords instructions, I'll pay you $3 an hour , now go make me profitable
          PPC campaigns is a fantasy .

          Now, if you build a long relationship with a considerable amount of your own hours
          invested, and extensive training and the individual has a huge understanding of
          what they are doing, their market, how to test and track and a variety of
          other skills and as you say you build up a strong trust rapport and so on, then
          yes I can it being viable.

          People constantly lose their shirt on PPC and I can't see why Phillipino outsourcers
          would be any more capable. Even writing PPC adverts is a skill, guys like
          Perry Marhsall spent a decade getting it perfect to generate a good CTR but
          now apparently some guy from the Phillipines can do it without an issue.

          Sorry John, I would love to agree with you, all the respect in the world
          goes out to you and your general professionalism and what you've brought to the
          table in this game, but I would by lying through my teeth if I sat back
          and let this fly.

          To make the statement "you can easily outsource your PPC" for typical Philipino
          rates is misleading, can you outsource it sure, but it's vastly more detailed than
          point and click and the inherent issues I've already mentioned do exist.

          Quality PPC management companies charge very good money to
          manage even existing campaigns, and constantly tweak them, much less
          setup from scratch profitable ones.

          For the record, I have a client paying a very well known PPC management
          firm in the US right now, even they lose money on a number of campaigns
          and this is guys who have extensive experience with corporate accounts.

          The statement "you can outsource PPC management" is impossible to argue
          with at it's most basic level, of course you can, but it comes with a lot
          of caveats.

          I don't want to go around in circles John, at the very heart of the matter
          - outsourcing is good, there's no bone of contention here, I agree with
          you, but with due respect I can't agree on how easy you're making it sound.
          as it relates to PPC.
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  • Profile picture of the author Justin Wheeler
    Personally I think John Reese is one of if not the best of the so called "gurus"! I do a lot of outsourcing and had I been aware of the course at the time would almost certainly have picked it up. You only need one gem to pay for the 2K over and over again. However it does depend on where you are at budget wise. 2K would pretty much pay for a low grade outsourcer for a whole year or a couple of really good ones for a month or so.
    Signature
    I sell my own products and training via www.marketerspassport.com
    I review products and offer bonuses at www.wantabonus.com
    I blog personally, infrequently and a little randomly at www.justinwheeler.net
    And I run a Web Development and Social Media Consultancy at www.vashonmedia.com
    Look forward to knowing you... Drop by on Facebook
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  • Profile picture of the author justcrowd2010
    Well we can never say if the program is good or bad unless we know if it is really effective, sometimes there are basics and even advanced module or maybe techniques on how to maximize the worth of the program. I think the program can actually make a difference but they must have at least a trial version for everyone to try
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  • Profile picture of the author Marty S
    Simon I think you and Doctore could put together a reasonably priced, value packed product for outsourcing.

    Just my hunch.
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    • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
      Originally Posted by Marty S View Post

      Simon I think you and Doctore could put together a reasonably priced, value packed product for outsourcing.

      Just my hunch.
      Nice thought but I doubt I could add anything that's not already
      been said before, from what I understand John's product covers
      every aspect in depth, and a lot of elements of outsourcing on
      a big scale, I have no experience in, but appreciate the vote
      of confidence.
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      • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
        Simon,

        I certainly don't want to get into a huge argument over all of this concerning PPC Management, but just wanted to clarify a few things...

        I wasn't trying to imply that all you have to do is point someone to Google's basic intro to AdWords and an outsourcer is off and running creating profitable campaigns. The point I was trying to make is that many are smart enough to learn how to do it.

        PPC Marketing IS challenging, but your statements make it sound like there are only 100 people in the world that are capable of running successful PPC campaigns! Like it's a skill that's compared to brain surgery and only a few will ever be successful with it.

        The fact is, there are thousands upon thousands of successful, profitable PPC campaigns being run right now. And they are being managed by thousands upon thousands of different people.

        How did these people learn to become effective at it? THEY STUDIED AND LEARNED THE SKILL.

        Nearly all MASTERY comes from study and practice. The rare exception would be with a 'gift' that someone is born with, such as being a music prodigy, etc. Almost everything else in life can be LEARNED.

        Many of these college graduates in the Philippines are experts in ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING and other complicated disciplines. If they can learn and master engineering, they can certainly be 'good enough' to manage PPC campaigns. Will all of them absolutely squeeze 99% of profit out of every camaign, and will they be BETTER or the SAME as some other PPC expert at the very top of their game? No, of course not. And neither are the THOUSANDS OF OTHERS that are still able to run successful campaigns with AdWords and are doing so right now.

        The fact of the matter is that plenty of these workers are "good enough" to learn this skill and do an effective job of bringing in more profitable leads and sales that an entrepreneur otherwise wouldn't have unless they were going to spend all of THEIR TIME managing it.

        Making a lot of money isn't about being perfect. It's about generating an ROI in as many places as possible and having a business model that will SCALE.

        I'd much rather have 10 workers managing different PPC campaigns for me and each returning a $1,000 profit per week than having the best PPC expert in the world managing a campaign for me that makes me $5,000 per week in profit.

        Are there certain campaigns that only one of the top PPC people in the world could actually turn into a profit? NO DOUBT.

        But are there a GAZILLION PPC opportunities that can turn a profit by someone doing a 'decent' job? ABSOLUTELY. I'm doing it TODAY and have been doing it for years -- and I know many others doing it as well. THE PROCESS WORKS.

        Again, could these people managing the PPC campaigns squeeze even more profit out of it if they were on the same level as some of the top PPC experts in the world? Yes, they could. But not being as good as the best PPC folks in the world doesn't mean that can't TURN A PROFIT FOR YOU and that's the point.

        John Carlton could write a sales letter that could pull a 5% conversion as compared to a less skilled copywriter that may only pull a 2.5% conversion. But if the 2.5% conversion letter produces a POSITIVE ROI it's a *WIN* for the business owner.

        As far as people ripping off campaigns, I don't doubt it happens. Hell, even Google's own employees got caught doing it to one of their customers. (It happened to Jeremy Schoemaker of shoemoney.com and he sued them and won.)

        But my point is, assuming that everyone is just going to rip off any winning campaigns is a SCARCITY MINDSET. (Not implying this is what you have, just making a point.) More money will almost always be made using an ABUNDANCE MINDSET. Giving people the benefit of the doubt.

        If 9 out of 10 workers produce a positive ROI for me and the other person RIPS ME OFF, I'd still end up making a lot more money than if I didn't take any of that action out of fear that someone was going to ripoff my campaigns.

        The fact is, the Internet is VERY COMPETITIVE. Anyone can figure out what anyone else is doing online to make money. Hell, people can easily monitor AdWords ads and chart the ones that keep running -- implying that they are turning a profit. There's not a single company out there that can truly hide this from the rest of their market if someone else knows what data and scenarios to look for.

        So my point is... I DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT. There's far more money to be made from the abundance mindset of just PUSHING FORWARD and having people do work for you and scaling your business, rather than putting so much focus on someone stealing from you. (Again, not implying that this is what you're doing, just making my point.)

        But if you think a somewhat intelligent person (that reads, writes, and speaks english well) is incapable of writing some 3-line AdWords ads (of which they can use competitive research to find elements of copy already working in their market) and being able to effectively manage AdWords campaign, you're wrong. It's happening all over the place.

        What you probably don't realize is that most of the big PPC Management companies OUTSOURCE the work to people they hire and train to do it. Do you think the main expert guy is actually writing and managing MILLIONS of keyword groups and campaigns? No way. They create a little training system and have others do the actual LABOR of the management.

        EVERYTHING in Internet Marketing can be easily outsourced with proper training -- the same training and 'work' that any entrepreneur would have to go through themselves. Will these workers produce the absolute best results compared to the best experts in the industry? Nope. (Although some may.) But then again, they don't have to write you a 5% conversion letter for you to make a ton of money from their 2.5% conversion letter.

        * One of the only exceptions to what can't easily be outsourced is if someone IS the product -- like they are the expert in an infoproduct business. But there are a million other opportunities and models where that doesn't come into play.

        With enough training, systems, models, and scalability, even MEDIOCRITY (and I'm certainly not saying that's what someone should strive for) can produce MASSIVE PROFITS AND ROI.

        -John Reese
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  • Profile picture of the author wiseinvest
    Well said John Reese... if you're the real John Reese - then you're the man...

    I'm subscribed to this thread and have been following the conversations people had in here and thought I'd add my two cents in.

    My background:
    I was born in the Philippines and grew up in Australia. Even though I am now an Australian I still consider myself a Filipino (btw it's spelt Filipino not Phillipino!).

    Philippines background:
    As of 2008, there are over 90 million people in the Philippines and is projected to be 100M by the year 2016. (If you don't believe me, look it up online) It could possibly reach that amount in less time than that. The capital city of Manila has a population of around 20M+ people.

    Just to give you a perspective, Australia's whole population is around 20M (which is around 2-3 times the land size of the Philippines. Can you imagine a continent with a population the size of Australia squeezed into a small capital city of Manila???

    Why am i giving you this perspective?
    Because the more people there are, the more competitive it gets. Think about supply and demand. Anything from education, healthcare, EMPLOYMENT, even mateship.

    Here's a bit of trivia for you: the ratio of female to male is almost 3:1, that's why it's almost normal (I say almost) for a man to have a wife and mistresses and kids (because of that ratio) - but hey, that's another topic for you.

    Why are the majority of people in Manila?
    Because a lot of people from the provinces relocate there for better opportunity and higher wages. Which means, that if you know the places to go to - then you can even hire someone outside of Manila and get even less buck for your money.

    What is the average wage for people in Manila?
    It depends on the type of work that they do. White collar workers earn much, much more than blue collar workers. Which is a bit of a spin out because in Australia, if you're a carpenter or a brick layer or a garbage collector - you earn more (much more) if you're working with your hands than if you're working on your computer (it's probably the same where you are). It's quite the opposite in the Philippines.

    Just to give you an idea, 20 years ago - you can hire a maid for less than $2 (AUD) a day. That's Australian dollars! So work it out for yourself how much it is in USD or GBP. It may be a little higher now, but I can tell you - it's piece of peanuts for you!

    Some of you who are still working full time hours may earn that in 10 minutes. I know of people who work and go outside for a smoke and takes them 10 minutes of their time. Sometimes this includes going to the toilet and stuff. So, next time you think of smoking and/or going to the toilet - that's how much somebody in the Philippines could be earning working for 8-10 hours in a day! That's working 8-10 hours in a day!

    I'm not sure exactly how much the average wage is now in the Philippines - but I can tell you once again --- it's peace of peanuts for you.

    Education:
    Filipinos have a mentality that you need to finish your education to get ahead in life. It's part of the reason why moms and dads will work overtime or two jobs to get their kids to finish school. Once the oldest one have finished college, then he or she will then seek work to help his/her other siblings to finish school. Which is why it's also a normal occurence that the grandparents, aunts or uncles live in the same house to help look after the kids and also minimise household expenses.

    If you don't finish school - you're considered a nobody. I know it's a bit harsh but you will never get ahead if you didn't finish school. You'd have to have a very strong entrepeneurial spirit to get ahead. Or, you'd have to know somebody and are well connected to get ahead.

    Employment:
    It's a normal occurence that a worker will stay at his/her job a lot longer than go look for another or go job hopping. Why is that so? Once again, because of competition and again going back to supply and demand. There are many millions leaving school and are always looking for employment. Why do you think a lot of Filipinos go overseas? To get ahead in life and in pursuit of better opportunities. Why would they leave if there's better opportunities there and less competition? Right?

    So what does this tell you? It means, that when you have a worker working for you - you not only have a worker (sometimes for life) but once you've established a relationship - you are treated as almost a family. Why? Because you're providing not only your worker a way to support him/her but also a way to support his/her family.

    In breaking this down further - it'd mean that they're more likely not wanting to lose you as a 'boss' / 'employer' - than you thinking that you'd lose them from working for you. Heck, if you don't like your worker - how about choosing another 1 -- out of at least a million? Do you think you'd find someone capable of doing your job?

    That's why it is almost certain you will find not only a hardworking employee/outsourcer but he/she will ensure that you're happy with the work they're doing. Why? Because, they wouldn't want to lose you. Again - Supply and Demand.

    So where does this leave us?
    One of the posters said that they're afraid someone will steal their PPC earnings once they see how profitable it is for them.

    Well, let me tell you that regardless of whether they're Filipino's or not - if someone's going to steal your earnings / ideas, someone definitely will - regardless of their geographic location.

    Here's why I think it's "bullocks"!
    First up, some PPC can be a hit and miss game. What's profitable for you today may not be tomorrow. Depending on many factors such as keyword competition, keyword demand, supply, etc. Bar a few niches that has constant demand - of course.

    What you're playing for peanuts with PPC is a lot of money to somebody in the Philippines. So they're not likey to 'gamble' their earnings in pursuit of a quick buck. Remember, they're not just supporting themselves - but also their family. Most of the time, they are the only source of income in the household - supporting an average family of 5 in their home.

    What if any of them have to go to hospital? Pay for medicines? Pay for school items? Do you think they can afford it? If you were in the same situation, are you willing to gamble your last hard earned money for a quick buck? You might as well buy lottery if that's what you're doing? It might be hard for you to understand because you've never been in that situation. But think hard --- what would you do?

    Besides, if someone is making a good enough money on PPC - why would they be working as an outsourcer or an employee anyway? Let me tell you one thing - Filipinos would rather be sure than take a gamble. Sure there are entrepenuerial people there and (if you ever get a chance to visit) you could see that everywhere. You are either very rich or poor.

    Why am I posting this?
    I'm a bit concerned about what one of the posters said regarding PPC. It isn't nice to be stereotyping someone / nation / culture just because they feel like it. Tell me, have you ever employed / outsourced anyone from the Philippines and had someone taken your earnings from you? If you have, why didn't you hire somebody else? If you haven't, then what the heck are you talking about?

    This is an example of someone making an assumption that is taken as reality - where more people will read and post and comment and make this as an actual reality. This is also a minimalist thinking. Think of abundance man! There's plenty in it for everybody!

    A lot of what John Reese has posted earlier is pretty much spot on. I can tell that he's had a lot of dealings with the Filipinos from an outsourcing point of view.

    Can I just say, that I'm in no way affiliated with John Reese nor am I an affiliate of his outsourcing program. Perhaps, now I'm thinking I should be. But my point is that most of his points are valid.

    So, do I have John Reese's outsourcing program?
    No I don't. And am not sure if I'll need to.

    Will I learn something from it?
    If I can learn a thing or two then it's worth it. Isn't it? If it's a complete resource then I might pick up more than I thought.

    The question is - will you learn something from it?
    I'm not sure. Once again, because I don't have it. But, if you are thinking of outsourcing your work and don't know where to start. It might be worth picking up and learning from someone who has been doing it for sometime.

    Sure you can learn this all by yourself and research it yourself online. It's just a matter of weighing up if it's worth trading your time for money. That's up to you to decide.

    Anyway, I can go on and on and give you some insider secrets to outsourcing (from a Filipino's perspective) or a background on Philippines if any of you wants to. This would depend of course on demand...

    I'm actually excited by the thought of outsourcing. I've done it on a small scale and hired people from Philippines.

    Lately have been thinking of scaling it up via a friend of mine who I happen to be a 'godfather' to his son. His family owns several high schools and colleges in the Philippines. I'll have to talk to him and see if I'll be able to get unlimited articles written (& copyscaped) for around 10,000PHP (around $250AUD).

    Once I'm able to do that, then I might be able to pick quality outsourcers for cheap and offer the services here in WF. Keep my fingers crossed. (By the way, there's more to it than just asking his college(s) (students) to write unlimited articles for me for 10,000 PHP. Which I'm not prepared to divulge - yet... anyway.

    Well, I hope this helps someone reading this and get a better insight on Philippines and outsourcers there. I hope this will also give you an open mind as well.

    Look, if you are thinking of outsourcing - there are other places you can go to besides Philippines. There's India, Eastern Europe, South America, etc. There's also many reasons why it's cost effective to outsource in PH. Which probably will be for another post instead.

    Hope this helps.


    cheers,
    Armand
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    @John

    Like I said , I don't want to go around in circles, we both have much
    better things to do with our time. There's a lot of blanket statements
    that are open to debate but I'm going to pass, this is way to time
    consuming and I've already made my points.

    I'll just say whether somebody is a genius in nuclear fiisionable isotopic
    reactors or not bares very little relationship to whether they can dig out
    and find winning campaigns, the very best of the best often fail at it.

    There are guys who after $2k expert PPC courses from hugely reputable
    big names like Gauher, who with access to PPC guru forums
    still lose their shirt. Of course not only a 100 people make a ROI
    but it's far, far , far from easy, and there's a gazillion more people
    who fail horribly at PPC than succeed and we can't put it down
    to PH all being vastly cleverer.

    No doubt , there are PPC experts in the PH, in India, in the UK,
    everywhere in the world making a return, and if that's their
    specialization, of course I agree with you it's far more sane a
    a proposition.

    But to suggest you take some untrained guy and he can do something
    after reading guides, that 99% of people who try PPC can't do,
    I'm going to pass .

    Can it be outsourced, of course it can, should it made to sound easy
    no, not in my opinion and anybody who has tried hard to make PPC
    work, will say the same.

    All the best, now back to some actual work.
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  • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
    I don't like posting in this section too much.

    ...And I especially don't like going off track on the threads here.

    But since this thread is already a little offtrack I'll put in my two cents since there are only two parties arguing their points.

    Note: This is a post regarding the vast majority (95%+) who bought John's course: affiliates.

    As someone who has been in the industry quite a while and pays Google, Facebook, TrafficVance, and PoF thousands every day I can say with 100% confidence if you outsource your campaigns you are going to fail as an affiliate.

    There are a few points to be made...

    First off, the only time outsourcing campaigns makes sense is if you have a unique product (let's say Pepsi) and are a "brand advertiser". You are building your brand, not selling product.

    That's very important to note. Anytime you have a campaign that is meant to directly sell product you are not a "brand advertiser". The reasons why it only makes sense to outsource campaigns when you're a "brand advertiser" is because:
    • There's no risk of campaigns being copied (because there's no money to be made by the outsourcer)
    • It's about getting your brand out - and that's something hard to measure in results. Plus you probably won't be optomizing because, in say FB ads, you will be bidding for highest impressions not CT's

    Second off, I'd wager a bet that around 50% of those who bought this course haven't made a dime online.

    ...And that's okay. We've all been there. Props for being serious about your future business and wanting to understand outsourcing.

    The other 48% make under a few thousand a day.

    The final 2% we'll say are somewhere above a few thousand. Probably not above 50 thousand/day though.

    Without first understanding a set skill you can never hope to outsource or teach it.

    This is why I shake my heads when seeing all these WSO's by people "claiming" to have made a hundred dollars yesterday. They don't know or understand the skill their teaching - anyone can scale above that and if they can't they aren't worth listening to.

    Even if you ONLY want to make that extra $100/day.

    I'd worry that by even bringing up, without properly warning, members about outsourcing your campaigns without first fully understanding the principles that govern PPC you will fail and lose a lot of money in the process.

    Starting a campaign, and being profitable right away, isn't as easy as it was back a few years ago. YOU will need to do everything, from start to finish in setting up your campaign, to make it profitable and that's something that takes months of actual in the trenches work to understand.

    ...And is NOT something someone with no idea what even being an affiliate means can pick up even if they are "college graduated" as John points out. As if being an electrical engineer means someones more qualified to run a campaign, lol.

    Note: and it SURE AS HELL can't be learned by going to the Adwords learning center.

    Third off, is...

    You're doing it wrong.

    Outsourcing PPC if you aren't a brand advertiser, but are in the act of putting up campaigns to profit from them directly, IS dumb.

    Outsourcing photo collection (say for FB ads), outsourcing banners (for Google content network or direct/media buys), and landing pages (for any traffic source) is something I spend thousands on a week and IS smart.

    And it's absolutely crucial to growing your business.

    Setting deadlines, understanding the principles I assume John teaches in regards to keeping your outsources inline and keeping projects separated, is also a skill you must learn.

    But when it comes to actually putting that campaign together and putting it live - that can't be outsourced if you're an affiliate.

    It may sounds stupid... why can't you outsource that, you've done everything else?

    But this is where it all comes together. This is where all the pieces of the puzzle come together - except for that last piece that needs to be put in by YOU.

    There are too many variables at this stage and this is where you need to make sure all the pieces fit. There are certain easy decisions that, with your logic, seem like "duh you just do this" but to your outsourcers they don't.

    And since this is YOUR money take the minute to put it all together.

    For instance:

    When setting up a FB campaign I:
    • Outsource the photo collecting

    So if I'm starting a campaign targeting American men over 35+ for a mature dating offer I need a good picture of an older, around 30, women.

    This is something your outsourcer will never fully grasp and quite frankly even after years of doing this I would never trust my outsourcer to do this.

    He doesn't know and digest my earnings and spend like I do. He doesn't know my profitable campaigns. He doesn't, since it's not his money, care enough to draw parallels between top converting ads.

    Like: low cut shirt = more CT's.

    And since the picture is the most important part of your ad it's up to you - let him have the broad task of raping HotOrNot.com for pictures he THINKS will work. Then test 10 or 20 that you'll make the executive decision of thinking WILL work.

    I could go on about landing pages, etc. But you get the idea.

    Too often we try and differ tasks. Because we don't believe in ourselves or, more likely, are just too lazy.

    You better believe even if I get someone doing simple landing pages for $500, who every guru uses, I'm going to split test his design. Just because he's good and used by many doesn't mean I don't test.

    You better believe even if I get someone doing simple photo collection, who every guru uses, I'm going to split test his images to make sure I get the best ROI.

    Don't differ things like PPC campaigns to others because you feel then if they don't do well you can yell at your outsourcer or because "it won't be your fault".

    You have TWENTY FOUR hours in each day and after outsourcing pictures, landing pages, even ad copy (something I wouldn't recommend but is too off-topic to get into) you better believe you'll have enough time to actually put it all together.

    It takes me literally, with Facebook Ad up-loader, to put up 100 campaigns all split testing variables (which is all you need - go deep no broad). I can do 20 extremely solid ads, all of which having varying degrees of profitability, on the normal Facebook page (which is all you need).

    ...ALSO, this IS off-topic but whatever, unless you're making the rookie mistake of having campaigns with like $5 budgets (which is incredibly stupid and unproductive because you'll never get enough data to make a proper decision in regards to the profitability potential of the campaign) you'll be spending a lot of money.

    Say on average $300/daily campaigns. If you just set up a few of those you're talking about alot of money a day without knowing if you'll make any back.

    So it's not like you need to be cranking out campaign after campaign in order to make a dime.

    If I didn't bother to scale it'd take under a half-an hour or hour to clean up my campaigns a day. And these ain't tiny.

    So the bottom line is: no one who bought John's course needs to worry about outsourcing campaigns like he suggests. I know some of the biggest pubs for Azoogle (doing between 75-200k revenue a day) and they do EXACTLY what I do.

    Outsource everything EXCEPT when it comes to putting it together. And yes, they manage a lot of campaigns. They are able to do so effectively, in an hour a day, by using tools not people so they can make the executive decision because they understand it's their money.

    ...

    I have absolutely no problem with John. He's an insanely smart marketer and he could absolutely kill it in the CPA world if he cared to get in...

    ...But I already heard his answer when asked that by a mutual friend - no worries Johnny I won't tell anyone. lol, loved it though.

    I've also talked to a few "guru's" who work with John promoting their stuff back and worth and they have nothing but great things to say about him.

    I'm sure this course is great - I wouldn't expect less from someone like John. But I do feel very strongly about this area because I live and breath it and every single affiliate I know, who does say over 1k rev a day, doesn't outsource campaigns fully like we're talking about.

    John - if you want I'll do a video, you can put it in the members area where your video or whatever on PPC outsourcing is. People can have two (one right, one wrong ;-) opinions than.

    Zach

    P.S - Try not to write in big blocks of text, bro. I have to crack a few beers to get through it.
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    • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
      Originally Posted by Zach Booker View Post


      Note: This is a post regarding the vast majority (95%+) who bought John's course: affiliates.
      You're 100% WRONG. The majority of my customers that bought this course are BUSINESS OWNERS with their own unique products and services. I'm sure a few folks (in the class) are going to try dabbling with affiliate marketing, but that's not the core demographic of who bought this course.

      As for your comments about CPA marketing, I've made millions from CPA marketing. I used to be one of Capital One and NextCard's (if you remember them back in the 1990s) one of their top affiliates. I used to generate thousands of credit card apps a month. As for why I'm not involved in it today, I've got TOO MANY other business projects going on.

      Anyway, Zach, thanks for sharing your insights. I do think, though, that this has gotten a bit OFF TRACK. I don't doubt that many of the nuances for highly competitive markets can't easily be outsourced. I'm sure there are TONS of PPC areas where only an expert can turn a profit. I never said otherwise.

      But there is A LOT that outsourcers can successfully do when it comes to PPC for most business owners -- as you pointed out for brand advertisers.

      But even beyond that, IN ANY MODEL (which is what I teach) there will always be things you can successfully outsource, even if it's not the entire process -- and that saves you time, and makes you more money.

      For example, I GUARANTEE there are things you are doing in your entire CPA process that SOME of it COULD be successfully outsourced. Whether it's keyword research, setting up campaigns with decisions you've already made, etc.

      For example, you mentioned needing photos of women in their 30s that would pull clicks for that campaign. You mentioned low cut shirts etc. You could easily send an email to an outsourced worker and say, "Find me 100 photos of attractive women that appear to be in their 30s, and ideally look for some 'sexy' looks -- like with a slightly lowcut shirt showing some cleavage."

      Then that outsourced worker is off doing all of that work to find those photos for you to split-test. If you think that can't be outsourced YOU'RE CRAZY.

      There is so much of ANY process that can be outsourced. Almost any model or part of any process is PRE-DEFINED that doesn't need decision-making. ALL of that is easy to outsource. And even most of the decision-making steps people CAN become trained for.

      -John Reese
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      • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
        Originally Posted by JohnReese2 View Post

        I don't doubt that many of the nuances for highly competitive markets can't easily be outsourced. I'm sure there are TONS of PPC areas where only an expert can turn a profit. I never said otherwise.

        But there is A LOT that outsourcers can successfully do when it comes to PPC for most business owners -- as you pointed out for brand advertisers.

        -John Reese
        Well yeah but John clearly if all the guy has to do is put ads up for a brand
        with no concern for a ROI, then anybody can do it yes, but the entire
        discussion has been about generating a ROI , and its' tough now, as I
        said, even the best of the best don't succeed all the time.

        The bone of contention has always been and the discussion has always
        focussed on PPC to make a ROI from a sale, and it's a tough game,
        it requires a total understanding of your market, the demographic
        and a lot of tracking and tweaking and experience of what does and
        doesn't work.

        Almost everything being sold via PPC is competitive now it seems, it's
        not quite the holy grail finding something with no competitors, but it
        feels like it at times.

        It's a world apart from telling a guy you want Pepsi to appear everytime
        somebody types in a soft drink name.

        For sure , under those conditions, I could teach a 10 year old to do it
        and you have no disagreement here that it can easily be outsourced.
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
          Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

          Well yeah but John clearly if all the guy has to do is put ads up for a brand
          with no concern for a ROI, then anybody can do it yes, but the entire
          discussion has been about generating a ROI , and its' tough now, as I
          said, even the best of the best don't succeed all the time.

          The bone of contention has always been and the discussion has always
          focussed on PPC to make a ROI from a sale, and it's a tough game,
          it requires a total understanding of your market, the demographic
          and a lot of tracking and tweaking and experience of what does and
          doesn't work.

          Almost everything being sold via PPC is competitive now it seems, it's
          not quite the holy grail finding something with no competitors, but it
          feels like it at times.

          It's a world apart from telling a guy you want Pepsi to appear everytime
          somebody types in a soft drink name.

          For sure , under those conditions, I could teach a 10 year old to do it
          and you have no disagreement here that it can easily be outsourced.
          Simon, I WAS talking about producing a positive ROI. Many workers are perfectly capable of doing this for many different markets. If you don't believe this is true then I don't know what to tell you. I SEE IT EVERYDAY with my own eyes - trained outsourced workers managing profitable PPC campaigns for business owners.

          * I realized I mistyped my other post when I referred to 'brand advertisers' - it wasn't meant to be implying they can only create campaigns for branding. I meant to say "non-affiliate marketing" and was referring to businesses with their own products and services. But I DO think many CAN become successful managing PPC for affiliate marketing too, it's just more challenging.
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      • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
        Originally Posted by JohnReese2 View Post

        You're 100% WRONG. The majority of my customers that bought this course are BUSINESS OWNERS with their own unique products and services. I'm sure a few folks (in the class) are going to try dabbling with affiliate marketing, but that's not the core demographic of who bought this course.
        I should've put affiliates and product owners.

        ...What I was really getting at is nearly everyone of your customers is trying to generate a ROI on their campaigns.

        They are not brand advertisers.

        Note: just because the majority of people who bought your product own products, etc, doesn't have any impact on the advice Simon and I are trying to convey.

        I'm sure there are TONS of PPC areas where only an expert can turn a profit. I never said otherwise.
        That's not what either Simon or I were getting at. Actually the areas where only the "experts" can compete are usually the areas dominated by brand advertisers who don't care about budget or CPC, CPM, etc.

        For example, I GUARANTEE there are things you are doing in your entire CPA process that SOME of it COULD be successfully outsourced. Whether it's keyword research, setting up campaigns with decisions you've already made, etc.

        For example, you mentioned needing photos of women in their 30s that would pull clicks for that campaign. You mentioned low cut shirts etc. You could easily send an email to an outsourced worker and say, "Find me 100 photos of attractive women that appear to be in their 30s, and ideally look for some 'sexy' looks -- like with a slightly lowcut shirt showing some cleavage."

        Then that outsourced worker is off doing all of that work to find those photos for you to split-test. If you think that can't be outsourced YOU'RE CRAZY.
        I'm starting to think your own replies are being outsourced.

        Because what you just said is EXACTLY what I said I was outsourcing - come on John.

        Since you missed the point here it is again:

        Certain processes of any campaign can be outsourced. Some thing are:
        • Landing pages
        • Landing page copy
        • Photos

        My whole point is that when it comes down to it - at the end of the day as someone who relies on their campaigns to produce direct profit - you need to be putting it all together in your Adwords, Facebook, PoF account yourself.

        You need to set your budgets, pick the images you want to split test, split test the landing pages you deem fit to perform, and make executive decisions.

        If you leave THAT up to your $500/month guy overseas, no matter how well intentioned, he won't do it right.

        BTW if you think that can be "trained" then you are the crazy one. Because without them being over your shoulder studying your CTs, CPM, CPC, budgets, multiple accounts, and profit margins on each individual campaign he will have no knowledge on what to bid -- hell maybe he'll start to bid the suggested bids on Adwords or Facebook.

        ...You can even assume he's REALLY good but at the end of the day he won't generate the profit margins YOU could because it's YOUR business and your the only one who gives a damn about how profitable it is (even just by a percentage point).

        Your advice is suited for those that don't care much about how their campaigns go - 40% ROI, 50% ROI, it's all the same. Your advice is suited for big business and small business owners who wrongly think throwing up some terrible ad will bring in the money (and since they can't track it they keep assuming).

        But your advice is not for those that rely on their campaigns to make sales to their own, or affiliate offers, to generate income. Whether it's 100k a day, 1k, or $100.

        Zach

        P.S - Kind of missed the point of the whole CPA joke - maybe it's because your posts are outsourced and all you gave the poor guy was a note saying, "Bro, just keep on telling them this stuff can be outsourced! They'll eventually just give up! P.S - use smiley faces to differ anger". :-)
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        • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
          Originally Posted by Zach Booker View Post

          My whole point is that when it comes down to it - at the end of the day as someone who relies on their campaigns to produce direct profit - you need to be putting it all together in your Adwords, Facebook, PoF account yourself.

          You need to set your budgets, pick the images you want to split test, split test the landing pages you deem fit to perform, and make executive decisions.

          If you leave THAT up to your $500/month guy overseas, no matter how well intentioned, he won't do it right.

          BTW if you think that can be "trained" then you are the crazy one. Because without them being over your shoulder studying your CTs, CPM, CPC, budgets, multiple accounts, and profit margins on each individual campaign he will have no knowledge on what to bid -- hell maybe he'll start to bid the suggested bids on Adwords or Facebook.
          First of all, my mistake on what I mentioned about the photo examples - I had skimmed your post somewhat quickly and didn't catch that part.

          But as far as what you're saying above, it's just not absolute truth. It's what YOU think is reality, because that's YOUR REALITY, but it's not an absolute truth as it IS very possible.

          You're assuming that someone else, regardless of what they're being paid, isn't able to learn all of that stuff. This just isn't the case. All of that stuff is certainly learnable. That's how ANYONE figures it out in the first place. Someone CAN eventually have access to all of that stuff and be managing all of that for someone else.

          I think it's misguided in this discussion to base any of these assumptions on:

          (And not saying YOU necessarily are, just making a point to the discussion)

          A) Outsourced workers can't do this type of work because they aren't smart enough. OR...

          B) Outsourced workers can't do this type of work because even if they could they would just rip you off and do it for themselves.

          (Not saying you're implying this.) But both of these points are not valid. There are people that are plenty capable of working hard to get the experience to learn ANYTHING in Internet Marketing as I've stated numerous times. And as long as they are compensated well enough, and treated well enough, they will HAPPILY do this kind of work for someone else.
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          • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
            Hehe, Gary. I appreciate the defense.

            Neither Simon nor Zach is attacking me. They both have strong opinions on the subject and we're just having a little debate over it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect them for it.

            There's no doubt that the PPC game is tough. But my overall point is that it's a skill that can be learned by someone with decent smarts. And there are plenty of people in PH that are perfectly capable of learning it and producing a decent ROI for most companies.

            Now, is managing PPC campaigns for affiliate and CPA marketing harder for them? YES, 100%. Because typically the profit margins are 50% LESS. When it's not someone's own product, and they are running campaigns based on an affiliate commission alone, then the conversions and results need to be nearly TWICE AS HIGH just to make the same amount of profit. So, yes, it's increasingly difficult to turn a profit.
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          • Profile picture of the author John Chen
            Originally Posted by JohnReese2 View Post


            You're assuming that someone else, regardless of what they're being paid, isn't able to learn all of that stuff. This just isn't the case. All of that stuff is certainly learnable. That's how ANYONE figures it out in the first place. Someone CAN eventually have access to all of that stuff and be managing all of that for someone else.
            But John, "as far as what you're saying above, it's just not absolute truth. It's what YOU think is reality, because that's YOUR REALITY, but it's not an absolute truth as it IS very possible..."

            And based on the same argument, Gary's examples are only his reality. It's what HE THINKS is reality.

            Do we all have to base our points on OUR REALITY? Is there any such thing as an absolute truth? Is it reasonable to refute an argument by saying it's "only" the other person's reality? Are we all able to do statistically valid test to draw the "absolute truth"?

            I just wanted to point that out because I don't think it's valid way to present your point. I enjoy the debate by the way...
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            • Profile picture of the author JohnReese2
              Originally Posted by John Chen View Post

              But John, "as far as what you're saying above, it's just not absolute truth. It's what YOU think is reality, because that's YOUR REALITY, but it's not an absolute truth as it IS very possible..."

              And based on the same argument, Gary's examples are only his reality. It's what HE THINKS is reality.

              Do we all have to base our points on OUR REALITY? Is there any such thing as an absolute truth? Is it reasonable to refute an argument by saying it's "only" the other person's reality? Are we all able to do statistically valid test to draw the "absolute truth"?

              I just wanted to point that out because I don't think it's valid way to present your point. I enjoy the debate by the way...
              That point above I made wasn't just some generic statement. My point was, I have seen PROOF of it working. Therefore, it works. But I don't want to stir up more argument over all of this. People have their own opinions, and that's fine. I *know* most PPC management can be outsourced (and produce positive ROI) because I am doing it and so are many others.
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  • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
    Alright, I'm going to jump in here ...

    Most of the people jumping down John's throat, claiming that PPC can't be outsourced simply don't know what they're doing, or they're looking at PPC through the eyes of someone who is primarily an affiliate marketer ...

    Let's think local ... and I'll use an example you should probably be familiar with.

    Mike Koenigs talked about the "La Jolla House Painter" during the pre-launch portion of Main Street Money Machines ... now I don't know what the numbers on that campaign were, but it seems like everyone claiming PPC can't be outsourced with a positive ROI is totally forgetting about local PPC.

    A while back I was running local PPC ads for a high-end salon here in town. The average targeted client spent right around $700 per year after their first visit to the place ... their problem was getting more people in the door.

    I took the challenge based on a conversation I had at a dinner party, and within 1 hour had a campaign up, a wordpress blog hosted on a new domain, and we were running traffic ... (I did none of the work, I just told the salon owner what to do on their laptop during the party)

    I never changed the campaign, the landing page, the keywords, nothing ...

    I never saw the campaign at all after that initial one hour of setup time. I had nothing to do with it at all ...

    A while back, I saw the advertiser again at another party, and he told me killed the campaign after running for a few months, with a spend under $1,000 total, because they had too much business coming in, and couldn't handle any more new clients.

    I got an early update right after the ad started running ...

    In the first week, the client brought in 6 new appointments, and they figure those appointments are going to turn into $700 a year clients ... I don't know whether or not that happened, but those are their averages.


    Now I'm going to assume a "couple of months" is 2 months, but I didn't dig any further ... And I'm going to assume they were exaggerating some, so et's assume they only generated 5 clients a week instead of the 6 they claimed ... and let's assume that those clients only generate half the revenue of their averages (again, assuming they exaggerated).

    That'd be 5 clients a week, for 2 months, or about 40 new clients ... at an average of $350 each per year (half what they claimed) you're looking at $14,000 or so in revenue collected.

    Even if they only brought in one new client a week, at half of what they told me their average client spends, they're making $2,800 on a $1,000 ad-spend.

    That's an INSANE ROI!

    Stop thinking about competitive markets, razor slim ROI, and the oversaturated affiliate marketing space for a minute, and you should slap yourself silly for thinking that you can't outsource PPC ...

    And, you probably need to stop thinking so short-term as well ... sure, a campaign may lose $1,000 in the first month ... but over the long-term, keeping the client can turn a losing campaign into one that produces 200% - 2000% returns like this one did.

    You may not be able to outsource a PPC campaign for a top ClickBank product, but if you think you can't outsource a PPC campaign for 99.9% of local businesses on the planet .... you're only fooling yourself.

    ROI doesn't always mean making money right away. Most "real" business owners understand that attracting a client can be expensive, the real money is in keeping that client ...

    Nearly all advertising is negative ROI if you're calculating ROI after a week ... but most "real" business owners know the value of their clients over time, and calculate ROI based on the "real" world, not the fantasyland that is PPC direct-linking.

    - Gary Ambrose
    Signature
    If you have an automated webinar in the IM, biz opp, or make money space, and if it already converts to cold, and/or paid traffic... I want to send free traffic, and free leads to you registration page, every single day, until it stops converting. CLICK HERE FOR DETAILS NOW.

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  • Profile picture of the author Zach Booker
    1) No one is "jumping down John's throat".

    2) I can't speak for Simon but I never said a word against outsourcing local. In fact, if you read real close, you'll see I said big and small business owners should take John's approach.

    My advice has always been towards those either in affiliate marketing or selling their own products. And I have never said ppc campaigns can't be outsourced - I said parts of them shouldn't be.

    I'm out of this thread... but I do appreciate the clever responses completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about.

    Zach

    P.S - If anyone does think local is a good idea you better outsource the parts involving with customers. Because an awful lot of them are
    gonna be mad when money doesn't start making their wallets buldge instantly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Midas3 Consulting
    @Gary

    Hi Gary

    Few things.

    Your local high end hair saloon is not a competitive market in terms
    of PPC, not even in the same ball park. You're again almost in branding
    type territory, there's no disagreement that there are scenarios
    in which of course PPC can be outsourced although in your scenario
    given it would seem somewhat pointless.

    If you can set it up in 2 minutes and never bother to look back,
    check, tweak or do anything else to make a ROI, then trust me
    you're not doing the kind PPC that 99% of PPC'ers are doing.

    La Jolla House Painter" , for the record was done with video not PPC
    it had no relation to PPC at all.

    Lastly, I'm not having a go at John, I actually hold John in high regard,
    but I've seen so many newbies burnt with PPC, I think its' very
    important that people do understand that true ROI based PPC
    is a tough game and hard to even keep your finger on yourself
    much less if it's being done remotely.

    I'm "having a go" I guess that if you make the statement that "you
    can easily outsource PPC", it has has to come with serious caveats
    attached to it.

    In a campaign where you have to be able to buy traffic cheaper than
    the product commission you get or the profit if it's your own product,
    PPC is a tough game. Like I said, even the best of the best at the
    game make losses, ask Gauher why he's not outsourcing his PPC so
    he can go sit on a beach while a PH makes him gazillions.

    At the very core of the statement" you can easily outsource PPC"
    I guess it's unarguable.

    You can "easily" outsource the running of a nuclear plant to a PH
    outsourcer with remote access but as soon as you start digging
    into the statement it becomes apparent you can outsource turning
    on and off the lights in the office when people go home but probably
    not wise to outsource the melt down process.

    There's actually probably less disagreement between positions
    than this thread suggests, I think it's simply that saying you
    can easily outsource PPC needed some caveats in place to
    hold water.

    All the best.
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    • Profile picture of the author Gary_The_Ace
      Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

      @Gary

      Hi Gary

      Few things.

      Your local high end hair saloon is not a competitive market in terms
      of PPC, not even in the same ball park. You're again almost in branding
      type territory, there's no disagreement that there are scenarios
      in which of course PPC can be outsourced although in your scenario
      given it would seem somewhat pointless.

      If you can set it up in 2 minutes and never bother to look back,
      check, tweak or do anything else to make a ROI, then trust me
      you're not doing the kind PPC that 99% of PPC'ers are doing.
      I disagree ... obviously.

      You seem to be saying that 99% of PPC'ers are doing affiliate marketing, or working in spaces where there is intense competition ... that's simply not the case.

      If PPC were as hard as you make it out to be, Google wouldn't be pulling in billions of dollars in revenue per quarter. I don't know exactly when Google opened up the AdWords program, but what I do know it that it has been around long enough that if it wasn't working for lot more than 1% of people using it ... Google would be done.

      Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

      La Jolla House Painter" , for the record was done with video not PPC
      it had no relation to PPC at all.

      Lastly, I'm not having a go at John, I actually hold John in high regard,
      but I've seen so many newbies burnt with PPC, I think its' very
      important that people do understand that true ROI based PPC
      is a tough game and hard to even keep your finger on yourself
      much less if it's being done remotely.
      Yeah, I think that the majority of the IMers who have been around as long as you and I have do hold John in high regard, but I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're defining as "true ROI based PPC".

      I've never found PPC to be all that difficult to do myself, or to outsource ... and the reason for that is pretty simple. I've never jumped into competitive markets where I didn't have a lot of room for error, while still remaining profitable.

      In the example I used, which is local marketing based, let's say that the PPC campaign being run was for a free first visit, which would lose the salon $50 in hard costs, and $100 in potential profit, for a real loss of $150.

      If the average client generated in that scenario ended up being "average" based on what the salon owner told me, and generated a total of $700 per year in revenue ... is that a losing campaign based on your definition, or a winner?

      That said, PPC marketing, even in the affiliate space, can be easily outsourced as long as you're being creative ... let me give you an example.

      When Jeff Walker released PLF 1.1 or some past version, I really can't remember ... I ran PPC ads on the content network only saying something like "My Bonus Is Better Than This One", and the ads appeared on hundreds of blogs of other affiliates running bonus and review sites related to PLF. ( yeah, not too smart of them to run adsense on affiliate review blogs, but they still do )

      I don't remember the exact numbers, but I do know that my spend was less than $100, and I generated 7 or 8 sales of PLF based on those PPC ads ... It was one ad, no split testing, and it went to my bonus offer page that wasn't tested either.

      The campaign ran for around 3-5 days, and was basically turned on, and then off again ... this campaign could have easily been outsourced, and still would have produced the same kinds of returns ... even in the affiliate marketing space.

      I think you might be trying to say that turning a profit in direct linking type campaigns, which sure, is very difficult for most people ... but, to think that's how 99% of people are using PPC just isn't right.

      Originally Posted by SimonHarrison View Post

      I'm "having a go" I guess that if you make the statement that "you
      can easily outsource PPC", it has has to come with serious caveats
      attached to it.

      In a campaign where you have to be able to buy traffic cheaper than
      the product commission you get or the profit if it's your own product,
      PPC is a tough game. Like I said, even the best of the best at the
      game make losses, ask Gauher why he's not outsourcing his PPC so
      he can go sit on a beach while a PH makes him gazillions.

      At the very core of the statement" you can easily outsource PPC"
      I guess it's unarguable.

      You can "easily" outsource the running of a nuclear plant to a PH
      outsourcer with remote access but as soon as you start digging
      into the statement it becomes apparent you can outsource turning
      on and off the lights in the office when people go home but probably
      not wise to outsource the melt down process.

      There's actually probably less disagreement between positions
      than this thread suggests, I think it's simply that saying you
      can easily outsource PPC needed some caveats in place to
      hold water.

      All the best.
      I think the big disconnect in this discussion is coming down to this ...

      Can you easily outsource affiliate marketing based PPC campaigns where your profit margin is based on having high enough conversions on a single product that they'll both cover your spend, and return a positive ROI within 24 hours ...

      VS.

      Can you easily outsource other types of PPC campaigns where the return on your investment isn't based on arbitrage type payouts where you're tying to shoot the gap ...

      I don't think anyone can disagree with saying that most affiliate PPC where you're working on 50% or less of the sale price on a single offer in the affiliate space is hard ... but, that covers so little of what's really happening in PPC.

      The IM space is tiny compared to the rest of what's going on, and most of the planet still have no idea what affiliate marketing is as it relates to ebooks, and cpa, and even things like Amazon ...

      So your warning, in the context of affiliate marketing is probably valid and I know it's coming from the right place, but I think your warning in terms of PPC as a whole could hold a lot of people back, and prevent them from jumping in because they think they'll need some insane level of expertise before they can try PPC ..

      - Gary
      Signature
      If you have an automated webinar in the IM, biz opp, or make money space, and if it already converts to cold, and/or paid traffic... I want to send free traffic, and free leads to you registration page, every single day, until it stops converting. CLICK HERE FOR DETAILS NOW.

      P.P.S. Viral Marketing Doesn't Work ... Tell Everyone You Know! ;)
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