26 replies
I'm a sucker for Ryan Deiss's short courses so I bought Offline Arbitrage as soon as I saw it.

I haven't found the time to go through much of it yet but I like what I've seen so far. I've started writing my Offline Arbitrage review.

It sounds a great idea - building a list and recouping the marketing costs by selling on the leads - but does anyone know how this applies outside of the USA.

Other countries are much less developed in direct marketing than the US. Every time I hear Dan Kennedy, Gary Halbert and the other legends of direct mail go on about the SRDS I feel jealous because it's different in the UK.

I don't want to mislead people.
#arbitrage #offline
  • Profile picture of the author Harlan
    Hey Paul,

    Have you ever done direct mail?

    It's NOT as simple as Ryan implies.

    And heck, I'd go crazy if I ever found someone to buy my leads at that price.

    If that's true, that's a great find.

    HOWEVER, there's a lot in Ryan's presentation that goes against my years in direct mail.

    Buying names in direct mail is an art.

    You don't just randomly order names.

    Frankly - it sounded good but in the real world - I highly doubt this would work as described.

    #fail

    Harlan
    Signature

    Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
    Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
    http://overnight-copy.com
    Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
    Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3265757].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author auslaw2
      I wonder if he's referring to Luke Jaten that had the Postcard Profits course a couple of years ago? That was actually a really good course, but the only problem with direct mail is that it takes a larger budget to test. Normally you have to buy 5k buyer leads at a time and mail to at least 1k per mailing. That's just for testing. I do know a guy that's making a fortune in offline direct mail and he loves it because there is not the same kind of competition that is online.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3265824].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author Harlan
        Originally Posted by auslaw2 View Post

        I do know a guy that's making a fortune in offline direct mail and he loves it because there is not the same kind of competition that is online.
        Depends on your niche.

        Response rate.

        Circular file rate.

        But postage costs can eat you alive.
        Signature

        Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
        Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
        http://overnight-copy.com
        Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
        Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com

        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3267065].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author AdamHolland
          Yea, how many other "Luke's" do you know that do postcards.. haha. Definitely gotta be him.

          I bought his Postcard Apprentice Program when he JVed w/ Matt Trainer about 18 months ago. This included his $300 Postcard Profits audio course, $997 Postcard Traffic course, and then the apprentice program which included a very detailed online curriculum and something like 12 weeks of coaching.

          It was $3k. Worth it? Yes. If you understand you need a decent testing budget, go for it. Just be sure to use his recommended contacts/list brokers depending on your niche.

          All the best,

          Adam Holland
          Signature

          Powerful Training - RevolutionProfits.com

          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3268818].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author AdamHolland
            PS - sorry, I didn't want to confuse anyone..

            $3k was for the apprentice program I got a while back. Offline Arbitrage is only $97. But I'm sure there will be upsells ;-)
            Signature

            Powerful Training - RevolutionProfits.com

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3268822].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
          Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

          Depends on your niche.

          Response rate.

          Circular file rate.

          But postage costs can eat you alive.
          Harlan, you say it depends on the niche . . . what niches work well with postcards, can you say? I know you have a lot of experience, so I'm interested to hear any further insights you have on this. My guess is that the home business and health and wellness are well-suited to direct mail and postcards, but I can't say for sure.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3272941].message }}
          • Profile picture of the author Harlan
            Originally Posted by BillyBee View Post

            Harlan, you say it depends on the niche . . . what niches work well with postcards, can you say? I know you have a lot of experience, so I'm interested to hear any further insights you have on this. My guess is that the home business and health and wellness are well-suited to direct mail and postcards, but I can't say for sure.
            Make money at home is huge.

            Health, wellness weight loss.

            But here's the big lie in the system.

            People who buy from Infomercials are usually very poor direct mail buyers.

            This is an ABC of list selection.

            So the video isn't really setting you up for success.

            Peace,

            Harlan
            Signature

            Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
            Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
            http://overnight-copy.com
            Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
            Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com

            {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3275642].message }}
            • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
              Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

              Make money at home is huge.

              Health, wellness weight loss.

              But here's the big lie in the system.

              People who buy from Infomercials are usually very poor direct mail buyers.

              This is an ABC of list selection.

              So the video isn't really setting you up for success.

              Peace,

              Harlan
              Thanks, Harlan. I have heard that you want to market to people in the same channel. In other words, if they bought previously through direct mail, then you want to sell them through direct mail, too.

              So it makes sense what you're saying about infomercial buyers not translating into direct mail sales.

              But how about this: Let's say you're sending postcards to people who have previously bought through direct mail. So far, so good. My question is: Is it generally wise to send them to a website for the sale or for an opt-in, or should you keep it all offline and have them pick up the phone to order?

              I've also heard that you don't want to give people more than one option to order (phone, online, mail in, etc), so I'm curious if you have any advice on that as well.

              Thanks!
              {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3276396].message }}
              • Profile picture of the author Harlan
                Originally Posted by BillyBee View Post

                But how about this: Let's say you're sending postcards to people who have previously bought through direct mail. So far, so good. My question is: Is it generally wise to send them to a website for the sale or for an opt-in, or should you keep it all offline and have them pick up the phone to order?

                I've also heard that you don't want to give people more than one option to order (phone, online, mail in, etc), so I'm curious if you have any advice on that as well.

                Thanks!
                I like giving people many ways to order...
                Signature

                Harlan D. Kilstein Ed.D.
                Free NLP Communications Course at http://www.nlpcopywriting.com
                http://overnight-copy.com
                Get Fit In Four Minuteshttp://just4minutes.com
                Learn how to build a Super Site Without SEO http://supersiteformula.com

                {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3281313].message }}
                • Profile picture of the author paul_simister
                  Going back to my original question, does anyone know if this "selling leads" idea can work outside of the USA?
                  Signature

                  Paul Simister
                  Helping you to make more Online Profits

                  {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3287078].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author jeffrey73
      LOL! I love this guy's stuff! Always a straight-shooter and down to the point, no fluff/hype. Love his FB course as well, although I'm not too big of a ClickBank fan.

      Originally Posted by Harlan View Post

      Hey Paul,

      Have you ever done direct mail?

      It's NOT as simple as Ryan implies.

      And heck, I'd go crazy if I ever found someone to buy my leads at that price.

      If that's true, that's a great find.

      HOWEVER, there's a lot in Ryan's presentation that goes against my years in direct mail.

      Buying names in direct mail is an art.

      You don't just randomly order names.

      Frankly - it sounded good but in the real world - I highly doubt this would work as described.

      #fail

      Harlan
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3268877].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author da3gan
    I gotta agree with Dr. Harlan on this one. Great sales guys make things look easier than they are. Ryan is great. I bought Luke's original product and it's bad ass. So this version at $97 is worth it (I'll probably let my list know about it), but . . . hold no illusions.

    Direct mail cost money, at least $2k to $3k to test 5K names (and some list bomb - so be prepared), and having testing DM in the opportunity space myself, be ready because leads are going to run you between $12 and $20 (or more).

    With the arbitrage component - I.E. Renting your list through a broker. Most buyer list leads are worth about $3 each, and so as a component it may provide some financial cost offsetting, but don't forget . . .

    It's buyer leads that are valuable and rentable, so the $12 lead I talked about wasn't the buyer lead, it was the lead to create the buyer. Even if you get those leads to convert at 10% you're looking at paying $120 to get a customer, which is then the list that becomes valuable for rental.

    Add on top of that you need a buyer list of at least 1000 names per quarter to be rentable that means you've got cost of about $120K to build a rentable list worth about $3k per quarter.

    So it seems sexy, but . . . overall not as sexy as it looks, unless you've got a product that's reasonably high cost (in the at least $500 to $2k range) and it converts. Now you've got something worth being excited about.

    Just my opinion on DM postcard marketing in the opportunities space based from money spent and lessons learned.

    I've found with a 7 step backend mailing and a price point of $500 you can about break even, less than that I've found it really tough to be profitable.

    So take all that into consideration guys, and even with that I DO think the product is worth it.

    Daegan

    P.S. I'd love to hear anyone else who's tested DM for their info business's perspective here as well.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3269123].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author paul_simister
      I should have clarified in my original posting.

      the Luke in Offline Arbitrage is Luke Jaten of Postcard Profits.
      The research I did showed the product was good but customer service was lousy.

      Hopefully that won't happen with Ryan Deiss.
      Signature

      Paul Simister
      Helping you to make more Online Profits

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3270236].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rusty1027
    I just read Paul's review and this product IS Luke's previous Postcard Profits course. I purchased Postcard Profits so I know exactly what it includes.

    Ryan's video really caught my interest because it looked like a slightly different take on the Postcard Profits system. So I wrote Ryan asking if the "Luke" in his video was the same "Luke Jaten" - now I know why he never answered me.

    The Postcard Profits course DOES NOT include the list of content and features that Ryan's video claims. Glad I didn't spend my money.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3280778].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author fsweet
    Just to summarize the above:

    So this is "Postcards Profits System" by Luke Jaten; repackaged by Ryan Deiss. And the projected costs of getting it set up are pretty high and there are some questions about the cost of obtaining a customer. Customers obtained from offline methods might not convert very well on the internet.

    I'm certainly glad I read this!

    Is anyone out there Happy with this system and Making Money?
    Signature

    Shortcut Your Path to Internet Marketing Success

    Read this Amazing FREE Report

    Click Here to get Your copy Now

    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3280891].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author Chris Sorrell
    I just bought it and had a quick skim through the contents and it looks great. Yes, I don't think the whole process would be as straight forward as the sales video makes out but there's some solid content here. Also, offering up the rolodex of contacts and sources etc is pretty cool. Clearly this is intended for people with a decent budget to test with and some general marketing experience. I'd say it's a good buy for $97.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3281225].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author RedHat39
    Ok so as I see it this is Luke Jaten's Postcard Profits repackaged by Ryan, thats a given. But what I want to know is if what Ryan is claiming on his sales video even remotely on target with being able to resell the leads? Seems to me he makes a huge point of getting this across, so is there any reality to his claim?
    Signature
    [Say What?!?] How to market as an affiliate and build a list at the same time - (Video Proof)
    Click Here For FREE Access Now
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3288079].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author AMangones
      I have Luke's old program, and from what I hear from a buddy of mine. It's the same, plus a lot of added stuff to it.

      Can anyone provide feedback on fulfillment services and order taking services?

      I'm willing to give this a try, but I'm missing some pieces of the puzzle.

      Thanks
      AM
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3319517].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author paul_simister
      Originally Posted by RedHat39 View Post

      Ok so as I see it this is Luke Jaten's Postcard Profits repackaged by Ryan, thats a given. But what I want to know is if what Ryan is claiming on his sales video even remotely on target with being able to resell the leads? Seems to me he makes a huge point of getting this across, so is there any reality to his claim?
      I think this is a great angle for the promotion - Free leads - but I question the wisdom of it.

      If you've got a list of hungry buyers eager for more, do you really want them them to deluged with competing offers from marketers of unknown quality or ethics or would you prefer to nurture the list?
      Signature

      Paul Simister
      Helping you to make more Online Profits

      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3323013].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author BillyBee
        Originally Posted by paul_simister View Post

        I think this is a great angle for the promotion - Free leads - but I question the wisdom of it.

        If you've got a list of hungry buyers eager for more, do you really want them them to deluged with competing offers from marketers of unknown quality or ethics or would you prefer to nurture the list?
        Paul, in the world of direct mail, that's not something I would worry about. People get offers in the mail all the time, and seeing other offers is not going to hurt your credibility or their availability in any real way.

        The bigger issue is that reselling your leads is a lot more difficult and complex than Ryan makes it seem. He makes it sound like recycling your old soda bottles or something. For one thing, you can't just resell them immediately. Rather, you make them available on the marketplace, and then it's up to a list broker to make the transaction happen. In other words, it's a big "if."

        Not only that, if you're not getting at least close to 1,000 new leads a month, you're not even considered eligible to resell your leads. You have to have a damn good volume going to even start that process.

        I think notion of buying lists "for free" under this model is somewhat misleading. It's like telling someone they can advertise on Adwords for free . . . as long as you convert enough visitors into customers, or get enough people to click on the landing page's Adsense ads.
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3323144].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rashamba
    Sorry everyone who is a Deiss fan, but I did some research on this Luke Jaten dude. Not too good when you are listed in a FTC cease and desist action. I don't have anything bad to say about Ryan Deiss, but he has to know the people he associates himself with are a reflection on him as well. This is how people end up on salty droid...

    From http://www.ftc.gov/os/2006/12/USPISActions_list.pdf

    A False Representation Order was issued against Lucas Jaten doing business as Proven
    Concepts of Scottsdale, AZ on April 18, 2006. Jaten operated a work-at-home/multi-level
    marketing scheme and represented to potential clients that - for 57 minutes of work – they
    would be guaranteed $1,200 a week. Jaten, through existing Proven Concepts clients, mailed
    postcard solicitations to potential clients. Interested individuals returned the postcard to the
    person who sent the solicitation along with $129. That person kept $80 as their commission
    and forwarded the remaining $49, along with the new client’s information, to Jaten. The new
    client received the “
    How to Earn Thirty-Thousand Dollars a Month” tape set and the right to
    advertise the same program through Proven Concepts’ postcards and collect $80 from each
    new client. The guarantee stipulated two conditions: 1) the investor must use the postcards
    supplied by Proven Concepts and 2) the investor must use the list broker recommended by
    Proven Concepts. Preprinted postcards through Proven Concepts cost approximately
    $85/1,000 and names and addresses cost approximately $162/1,000. Investors were required
    to place the labels on the postcards and provide and apply postage ($230/1000). The 57
    minutes of work was the time it took to label and apply postage to 1,000 postcards. Proven
    concepts guaranteed a 1.5 % return on the 1,000 cards, equating to 15 new clients at $80 per
    client or $1,200. If the return of $1,200 was not achieved, Proven Concepts promised only to

    return the $129, not the additional $477 invested in the mailing.
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3329963].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author Greg guitar
      Originally Posted by rashamba View Post

      I don't have anything bad to say about Ryan Deiss, but he has to know the people he associates himself with are a reflection on him as well. This is how people end up on salty droid...
      I checked out salty droid earlier today. The list of IM gooroos he doesn't hate might be shorter than the list of those he does. Not to defend anybody in particular, but apparently there aren't any courses he doesn't view as ripoffs.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3600536].message }}
      • Profile picture of the author jdharr
        Just checking around to see what's up... I purchased the OFFArb. $97 course, but it seems the domain is now redirected to Godaddy's page. What happened there Ryan Deiss? I wish I had downloaded all the material...
        {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[5811669].message }}
        • Profile picture of the author shenigan
          Originally Posted by jdharr View Post

          Just checking around to see what's up... I purchased the OFFArb. $97 course, but it seems the domain is now redirected to Godaddy's page. What happened there Ryan Deiss? I wish I had downloaded all the material...

          I wondered that, myself. Every link for any product I could find that had HIS name attached to it didn't work. I typically don't trust marketers who don't maintain their own product links.
          {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[10096621].message }}
  • Profile picture of the author rosalyn
    While I also like Ryan's products, I tend to agree with Harlan on this one. And this isn't actually a Ryan Deiss product, but something he's marketing as a joint venture.

    Rosalyn
    {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3371666].message }}
    • Profile picture of the author dominodivine
      I know that I am a little late on this post ... but whats really the big deal this is the norm in all make money products.

      It is especially the norm with online every week there is another make money product from people who has never made money online.

      The real key is direct mail has less competition then online marketing and yes you have to test but you have to test with everything.

      I realize after spending loads of money in online info products that it was cheaper to spend money testing campaigns vs following all of the low cost or no cost marketing schemes.

      In any event it is a great idea the reality is there is no silver bullet either time or money you must be willing to invest one and in most instances both.

      So for the most part regardless of what Luke did it is a solid product with great information.

      You have to test it does not matter if it was ppc, ppv, media buys or direct mail.

      So if you are scared to lose a little money then stay away.
      {{ DiscussionBoard.errors[3472643].message }}

Trending Topics