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JVZoo may blacklist you just because an IMer requests it

by seosoldier
34 replies
I went to buy a WSO and I got a message that I had been blocked from buying!

I had no idea why so I wrote the seller and asked him. He said he wasn't sure why but he does know that ANYONE can request a buyer be blacklisted for a refund and that that is probably the reason. (He was selling as an affiliate for someone else's product.)

I looked to see how many refunds I had requested and found this:

*NO REFUNDS of JVZoo payments

*5 refunds from Clickbank. None of those were WSO's except for 3 which were but they were from overpayments. That is, somehow Clickbank billed me twice for one WSO and 3 times for the OTO and so I had to ask for refunds on the over-billing.
Another Clickbank refund was from a scam where an IMer basically charged me for a subscription service even though when checking out I declined the subscription service. As a result of that dishonesty (and poor performance of the software) I refunded both the subscription and the original offer. This was NOT a WSO but an offer I got in my email. This is the ONLY product I have ever chosen to refund based on not liking the product!

Now I would not blame anyone for blacklisting someone who refunded, say, 20% of all purchases or something like that. But I have bought probably 50 WSO's and never returned any just because I tried them and didn't like them, the only one was as mentioned above - a refund with good reason, and my % is about 2% if you do not count the double and triple billing described above (and Clickbank clearly acknowledged that those were refunded due to overbilling).

So the point of all this is that JVZoo really should not blacklist people just based on the whim of some IMer who doesn't like you because you refunded or gave his product/service a bad review. I suspect that this was done out of spite by the one IMer above who did scam me and others into buying his pos software and did bill me for a subscription I did not order.

JVZoo should require documentation as to your refunding too much before they blacklist you!

I asked JVZoo if I could appeal their decision to blacklist me, and did not receive ANY response from them.

One reason I am posting this is to make sure others realize that JVZoo does this and that while WSO'ers and others offer "money back guarantees" you should know that this does NOT mean you can get a refund with impunity!

It is clear that even if you do not ask for too many refunds you can STILL get blacklisted, as in my case.

Which goes to say that it is best that you be absolutely certain you want a software/product/service before you buy it because refunding it under the "100% no hassle money back guarantee" may cause you to be blacklisted as I was. I suggest you do as I do now: read the reviews very thoroughly before buying and do not buy unless the seller is someone you've heard of and can trust. Otherwise you may want a refund and that may get you blacklisted by a vindictive seller who didn't like your request for a refund or your (justified) negative review.

At the very least, JVZoo should consider a buyer's appeal. I would be happy to show them my paypal list of refunds over the past 12 months with explanations as above so they could see I am not deserving of blacklisted. But they would rather, apparently, ignore me. In the end it will be their loss more than mine, in this case.
#blacklist #imer #jvzoo #requests
  • Profile picture of the author Bryan Zimmerman
    Hi SeoSoldier,

    Just wanted to clear some things up as there is some misinformation in your post about what and how JVZoo does things with the blacklist.

    Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post

    I went to buy a WSO and I got a message that I had been blocked from buying!

    So the point of all this is that JVZoo really should not blacklist people just based on the whim of some IMer who doesn't like you because you refunded or gave his product/service a bad review.

    JVZoo does not blacklist people just because someone asks for it. As a network we wouldn't be very smart to just take a request like that and implement it as obviously it wouldn't be fair and then posts like this one would start showing up I can count on one hand the number of people JVZoo has personally blacklisted and they were all well documented multiple chargeback offenders from multiple vendors.

    However, we do have a network blacklist that is completely controlled by the vendors.

    We allow them to set their "blacklist level" to a number they want to use. For example 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Let's say someone chooses 5 as their number. If you as the buyer are on 5 other vendors blacklist as one they do not want buying their products, then you're going to get blocked from buying that product too. And you are also blocked from anyone on the network that has their level set to 5 or below.

    This is NOT controlled by JVZoo however, this is all controlled by the vendors and something that vendors were asking for for a long time. Now, do some vendors go a little overboard and set their blacklist settings to 1 or 2? Yes, I believe so as it can block buyers that honestly shouldn't be but that's how the choose to run their business so we don't step in and change it.


    Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post

    I asked JVZoo if I could appeal their decision to blacklist me, and did not receive ANY response from them.

    At the very least, JVZoo should consider a buyer's appeal. I would be happy to show them my paypal list of refunds over the past 12 months with explanations as above so they could see I am not deserving of blacklisted. But they would rather, apparently, ignore me.
    If you'd like to pm me your email address I'd be glad to check for you, but I have not seen a ticket from you about it. Not saying you haven't submitted one, but I usually get those pushed to me from the support staff and I haven't seen it.
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    • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
      Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

      Hi SeoSoldier,

      Just wanted to clear some things up as there is some misinformation in your post about what and how JVZoo does things with the blacklist.




      JVZoo does not blacklist people just because someone asks for it. As a network we wouldn't be very smart to just take a request like that and implement it as obviously it wouldn't be fair and then posts like this one would start showing up I can count on one hand the number of people JVZoo has personally blacklisted and they were all well documented multiple chargeback offenders from multiple vendors.

      However, we do have a network blacklist that is completely controlled by the vendors.

      We allow them to set their "blacklist level" to a number they want to use. For example 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Let's say someone chooses 5 as their number. If you as the buyer are on 5 other vendors blacklist as one they do not want buying their products, then you're going to get blocked from buying that product too. And you are also blocked from anyone on the network that has their level set to 5 or below.

      This is NOT controlled by JVZoo however, this is all controlled by the vendors and something that vendors were asking for for a long time. Now, do some vendors go a little overboard and set their blacklist settings to 1 or 2? Yes, I believe so as it can block buyers that honestly shouldn't be but that's how the choose to run their business so we don't step in and change it.




      If you'd like to pm me your email address I'd be glad to check for you, but I have not seen a ticket from you about it. Not saying you haven't submitted one, but I usually get those pushed to me from the support staff and I haven't seen it.
      Hi, thanks for clarifying. It's still the basic thing I was saying: IMers can blackball you for little or no reason.

      I did in fact submit a ticket, I'll try to find proof of that when I get a chance (I have a real job and don''t always have time for this stuff). And I will definitely PM you. I really feel this is unfair to people like me. I have in no way "abused" the system of asking for refunds. I suspect, rather it must be one person who somehow got a bug up their arse about me. Why, I have no idea as I try to be diplomatic and nice to people.

      Just for the record I think this is a very bad system you have set up as it does lead to ABUSE by the sellers, abusing the buyers. There should have to be a criteria in place, more than just someone with ONE refund getting blacklisted for it. Frankly this experience has made me very unhappy with JVZoo and I'm sure others will have the same opinion as they get abused by this practice.

      Furthermore, the way it was explained to me, even if I refund on Clickbank, a seller can blackball me from buying his product on JVZoo. Again, I had several refunds on Clickbank that were OVER-CHARGES so I'm wondering if this somehow triggered the blacklisting. Well, maybe you can look into this and give me an answer.

      I appreciate your posting a reply and willingness to look into it. Thank you.
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    • Profile picture of the author swriviera
      Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post


      However, we do have a network blacklist that is completely controlled by the vendors.

      We allow them to set their "blacklist level" to a number they want to use. For example 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Let's say someone chooses 5 as their number. If you as the buyer are on 5 other vendors blacklist as one they do not want buying their products, then you're going to get blocked from buying that product too. And you are also blocked from anyone on the network that has their level set to 5 or below.

      I'm wondering if it would not be more logical to make it a percentage rather than just a number from 1 to 5? To take the example of seosoldier who has purchased over 50 WSO's and has only refunded one or two (too bad the one done for technical difficulties could not be "erased"!!). What if he had purchased 100 or more? Because of ONE return (in that case a 1% return rate) the seller can refuse to sell him a product?? Hmmmm, maybe this needs to be revised???

      Sometimes it IS legitimate to ask for a refund ... though most of the time you get a lot for the price you pay in the WSO's!! That is why they are so dangerous and addicting!!!!!

      Have a great day,

      Sandra Walsh
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      • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
        Originally Posted by swriviera View Post

        I'm wondering if it would not be more logical to make it a percentage rather than just a number from 1 to 5? To take the example of seosoldier who has purchased over 50 WSO's and has only refunded one or two (too bad the one done for technical difficulties could not be "erased"!!). What if he had purchased 100 or more? Because of ONE return (in that case a 1% return rate) the seller can refuse to sell him a product?? Hmmmm, maybe this needs to be revised???

        Sometimes it IS legitimate to ask for a refund ... though most of the time you get a lot for the price you pay in the WSO's!! That is why they are so dangerous and addicting!!!!!

        Have a great day,

        Sandra Walsh
        That's exactly the way I see it, sw.
        It would be like Best Buy saying if you return 2 items you are banned from returning.. but what if I bought 15 items that year? That would be different than returning 2 if I only bought 4.

        Yes, WSO's are dangerous and addicting but they can also be quite useful and worth the money. I bought one earlier this year that helped get my site to page 1 and I started making good money with it for the first time ever. So if you buy carefully you can certainly get some worthwhile ones.

        Which is why I don't like the idea of being blacklisted.

        By the way the guy from JVZoo above offered to look into it so I sent him my info but as of yet have not heard anything. I'm curious to see what he or they may say about this. Meanwhile I was able to buy something via JVZoo the other day so I must be only banned from certain seller(s).
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    • Profile picture of the author BlackIrish
      Originally Posted by Bryan Zimmerman View Post

      Hi SeoSoldier,

      Just wanted to clear some things up as there is some misinformation in your post about what and how JVZoo does things with the blacklist.




      JVZoo does not blacklist people just because someone asks for it. As a network we wouldn't be very smart to just take a request like that and implement it as obviously it wouldn't be fair and then posts like this one would start showing up I can count on one hand the number of people JVZoo has personally blacklisted and they were all well documented multiple chargeback offenders from multiple vendors.

      However, we do have a network blacklist that is completely controlled by the vendors.

      We allow them to set their "blacklist level" to a number they want to use. For example 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Let's say someone chooses 5 as their number. If you as the buyer are on 5 other vendors blacklist as one they do not want buying their products, then you're going to get blocked from buying that product too. And you are also blocked from anyone on the network that has their level set to 5 or below.

      This is NOT controlled by JVZoo however, this is all controlled by the vendors and something that vendors were asking for for a long time. Now, do some vendors go a little overboard and set their blacklist settings to 1 or 2? Yes, I believe so as it can block buyers that honestly shouldn't be but that's how the choose to run their business so we don't step in and change it.




      If you'd like to pm me your email address I'd be glad to check for you, but I have not seen a ticket from you about it. Not saying you haven't submitted one, but I usually get those pushed to me from the support staff and I haven't seen it.
      Cool, thats actually fair to the vendors, clears thing up.
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  • Profile picture of the author bloggerd
    Iv heard few people mentioning that there support is none responsive quite often,
    I was using jvzoo but stoped few week back as dont see any benfit from it any products i listed hardly ever get any hits or affiliate requests not the best layout for displaying data of sales/affiliate sales, seeing what product has been refunded
    60 day payment hold is alittle exstreme i think personaly

    But thats just my 2 cents
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  • Profile picture of the author Black Hat Cat
    Banned
    Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post


    At the very least, JVZoo should consider a buyer's appeal. I would be happy to show them my paypal list of refunds over the past 12 months with explanations as above so they could see I am not deserving of blacklisted. But they would rather, apparently, ignore me. In the end it will be their loss more than mine, in this case.
    There are plenty of sellers who would love to have your money, so why waste time on those who are telling you they don't want it? The last thing I would do is invest any effort whatsoever into begging folks to please let me give them my money.
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  • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
    Black Hat Cat, you have a good point.
    However it just bothers me that a company allows a person to be blacklisted and since it appears that one can be blacklisted at JVZoo based on refunds via Clickbank for example, if this is left unchecked I could find myself blacklisted from buying ANY WSO soon. (This might be a good thing, actually. ;-D ) But no, there are some WSO's that can help me in my IM businesses and so I do not wish to be blackballed.

    Also, I think everyone should complain about this type of policy. It's simply unfair to allow one to be blackballed or in any way discriminated against based on a whim, with no accounting for it. There should be some sort of reasonable proof required before someone is blacklisted.

    I recently heard (though not sure it's true yet) that youtube for example can block your account based on just one viewer flagging your video clip. I know for example that ebay allows other members to give you a negative rating for NO reason - in some cases it is clearly done out of vengeance - and there is no appeal process allowed to remove the unwarranted negative rating. I am simply against this type of business practice and I think if enough people complain about it, maybe it will stop.

    In any case I wanted to at least make fellow Warriors aware of this.

    It gives new meaning to the words often posted on WSO's: "100% refund for any reason". Yeah, right... as long as you don't get mad about too many refunds for your crappy product and decide to blacklist everyone who refunded... I find it appaling that any seller of a product can blacklist someone without reasonable cause.
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  • Profile picture of the author MichaelHiles
    I don't think we have to look very far to find a consistent theme of serial refunding being a major problem in the digital product business. In some cases, people purchase, then immediately issue a refund request or worse yet - a trouble ticket with PayPal EVEN BEFORE DOWNLOADING THEIR PRODUCT.

    Literally as soon as they get a confirmation email, they turn around and file a challenge.

    This is malicious - and should be dealt with in the harshest of manner, as it materially even affects the business person's ability to accept payments. Sort of a prerequisite to being in business.

    At least digital product platform vendors are starting to recognize the issue and build in checks and balances to their system to permit vendors to protect their business. Serial refunders are the digital counterpart to shoplifters, and it's the right of every businessowner to decide who they sell to and who they don't.

    Kudos to the JVZoo gang for providing the tools to vendors to protect their business.
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    • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
      Originally Posted by MichaelHiles View Post

      I don't think we have to look very far to find a consistent theme of serial refunding being a major problem in the digital product business. In some cases, people purchase, then immediately issue a refund request or worse yet - a trouble ticket with PayPal EVEN BEFORE DOWNLOADING THEIR PRODUCT.

      Literally as soon as they get a confirmation email, they turn around and file a challenge.

      This is malicious - and should be dealt with in the harshest of manner, as it materially even affects the business person's ability to accept payments. Sort of a prerequisite to being in business.

      At least digital product platform vendors are starting to recognize the issue and build in checks and balances to their system to permit vendors to protect their business. Serial refunders are the digital counterpart to shoplifters, and it's the right of every businessowner to decide who they sell to and who they don't.

      Kudos to the JVZoo gang for providing the tools to vendors to protect their business.
      Absolutely serial refunders should be blacklisted!

      But there should be some checks and balances built into this policy.

      If an IMer can show evidence of someone being a serial refunder, that would justify blacklisting them.

      All I'm saying is that it appears this ability to blacklist can be abused - and in my case proves this. The way JVZoo has it now, anyone can blacklist someone "just because". For example let's say someone refunds a WSO and at the same time gives it a negative review in the seller's thread. So that seller gets p.o.'d and blacklists the refunder/negative reviewer. I'm not saying that happens but I imagine it has or will.
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  • Profile picture of the author writetale
    i am NOT a lawyer, and i thoroughly understand why someone would want to "blacklist" serial refunders, BUT....be careful here.

    collusion....vendors across state lines (cyberspace)....antitrust.

    you could probably maintain your own in-house lists, but once you start to "collude", it can get crazy....

    mountains can be made out of mole hills....protect yourselves. (i wouldn't even discuss this in a public forum)
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  • Profile picture of the author mosthost
    Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post

    I went to buy a WSO and I got a message that I had been blocked from buying!
    What a lucky break
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    • Profile picture of the author batchos
      My point exactly.

      JVZoo vendors are flooding your email inbox with offers.

      Originally Posted by mosthost View Post

      What a lucky break
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      • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
        Originally Posted by batchos View Post

        My point exactly.

        JVZoo vendors are flooding your email inbox with offers.
        All you have to do is unsubscribe.
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        • Profile picture of the author batchos
          How can you when you bought from these people and need updates.

          Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post

          All you have to do is unsubscribe.
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          • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
            Originally Posted by batchos View Post

            How can you when you bought from these people and need updates.
            Depends on what it is of course... If it's software usually the software would alert you when there's an update and you could download it then. Or if there's a membership site associated with it you could just check there every so often.

            Most WSO sellers say "subscribe for updates" but there's never an update! So I just unsubscribe from most, especially when all they do is recommend WSO's they're getting commissions on.
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            • Profile picture of the author batchos
              I get your point. Will try that because I spend way too much time managing email, especially for the "dedicated" email address I use for Paypal.

              Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post

              Depends on what it is of course... If it's software usually the software would alert you when there's an update and you could download it then. Or if there's a membership site associated with it you could just check there every so often.

              Most WSO sellers say "subscribe for updates" but there's never an update! So I just unsubscribe from most, especially when all they do is recommend WSO's they're getting commissions on.
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              • Profile picture of the author Tina Golden
                This is the seller who sets the level they're comfortable with, not JVZoo. You can't force a seller to sell to you. S/he might be being stupid and shortsighted, but it's still their choice on who to do business with.

                I've heard a lot of people say that if you refund for any reason, they block you from buying from them again. I think that is an ignorant and foolish thing to do, but they have the right to be ignorant and foolish.

                Although, if I'm given a BS reason for a refund or the request comes within a couple minutes of buying, then I wouldn't want to deal with that person again, either. But I would only do that on a case-by-case basis and blocking specific 'buyers', not everyone who had ever refunded a product.

                Think of it this way, though. If the sellers have chosen to block you for that, do you really think they have much to teach you?

                It's not like you'll be blocked by every seller at JVZoo. Just those who chose a very low tolerance threshold that will likely bite them in the butt in the end anyway.
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                • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
                  Originally Posted by Tina Golden View Post

                  This is the seller who sets the level they're comfortable with, not JVZoo. You can't force a seller to sell to you. S/he might be being stupid and shortsighted, but it's still their choice on who to do business with.

                  I've heard a lot of people say that if you refund for any reason, they block you from buying from them again. I think that is an ignorant and foolish thing to do, but they have the right to be ignorant and foolish.

                  Although, if I'm given a BS reason for a refund or the request comes within a couple minutes of buying, then I wouldn't want to deal with that person again, either. But I would only do that on a case-by-case basis and blocking specific 'buyers', not everyone who had ever refunded a product.

                  Think of it this way, though. If the sellers have chosen to block you for that, do you really think they have much to teach you?

                  It's not like you'll be blocked by every seller at JVZoo. Just those who chose a very low tolerance threshold that will likely bite them in the butt in the end anyway.
                  Good point.
                  At first I thought I was being blocked from buying any product sold via JVZoo but now I see that is not the case.
                  If an individual seller wants to block me, eff him/her, I don't need their cr*p.

                  However if you read JVZoo's response above, it is a little more complicated than that and a little less innocuous:

                  "..we do have a network blacklist that is completely controlled by the vendors.

                  We allow them to set their "blacklist level" to a number they want to use. For example 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Let's say someone chooses 5 as their number. If you as the buyer are on 5 other vendors blacklist as one they do not want buying their products, then you're going to get blocked from buying that product too. And you are also blocked from anyone on the network that has their level set to 5 or below.

                  This is NOT controlled by JVZoo however, this is all controlled by the vendors and something that vendors were asking for for a long time. Now, do some vendors go a little overboard and set their blacklist settings to 1 or 2? Yes, I believe so as it can block buyers that honestly shouldn't be but that's how the choose to run their business so we don't step in and change it."
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      • Profile picture of the author nmoppa01
        Originally Posted by batchos View Post

        My point exactly.

        JVZoo vendors are flooding your email inbox with offers.
        It is the affiliates that do that, not the vendors
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  • Profile picture of the author SeanSupplee
    The thing with JV zoo is it goes directly to paypal. We all know how pain in the butt paypal can be if to many refund requests come in. The deep freeze of your account.
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    • Profile picture of the author geoscash1
      I have had the same issue occur and it is extremely frustrating. I have purchased quite a few wso's ( I think over 30) and had to refund 2 because they would not work with other plugins on my wordpress site or was a video (wso) that I uploaded to youtube and was immediately spanked from youtube and had my account shut down.

      A new wso pops up that looks good so I go to purchase and it says I cannot purchase because the seller has me blacklisted and I have never even purchased from this seller before or refunded this seller, is not right.

      That in my perspective is chicken s%$@. that just tells me the seller isnt confident in there product and are afraid of the refunds so really not worth the purchase in the first place.

      Any time you purchase a digital product, especially a software or a plugin you should have the right to refund no question if it does not work for what your needs are or with your other software or plugins.

      There should be engagemment rules for both buyers and sellers to protect each others position, absolutely. But there should also be restraint in the fashion that it does not hinder either one from the purpse intended.

      I have bought a bunch of things through clickbank that were absolute crap and didnt even deserve to be a product sold publicly and refunded but that shouldnt blacklist me for future purchases considering refunds were through the roof for said products.

      Just my thoughts on the matter.
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      • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
        Originally Posted by geoscash1 View Post

        I have had the same issue occur and it is extremely frustrating. I have purchased quite a few wso's ( I think over 30) and had to refund 2 because they would not work with other plugins on my wordpress site or was a video (wso) that I uploaded to youtube and was immediately spanked from youtube and had my account shut down.

        A new wso pops up that looks good so I go to purchase and it says I cannot purchase because the seller has me blacklisted and I have never even purchased from this seller before or refunded this seller, is not right.

        That in my perspective is chicken s%$@. that just tells me the seller isnt confident in there product and are afraid of the refunds so really not worth the purchase in the first place.

        Any time you purchase a digital product, especially a software or a plugin you should have the right to refund no question if it does not work for what your needs are or with your other software or plugins.

        There should be engagemment rules for both buyers and sellers to protect each others position, absolutely. But there should also be restraint in the fashion that it does not hinder either one from the purpse intended.

        I have bought a bunch of things through clickbank that were absolute crap and didnt even deserve to be a product sold publicly and refunded but that shouldnt blacklist me for future purchases considering refunds were through the roof for said products.

        Just my thoughts on the matter.
        What you said! I agree 110%!
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  • Profile picture of the author xxxJamesxxx
    I'd just forget about it and move on.

    James Scholes
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  • Profile picture of the author Joe118
    SEO Soldier, I feel your original post is misguided.

    JVzoo is just a marketplace, they're providing a place where vendors can do business with clients. Just like noone is forcing you to buy a specific product, every vendor is also free to decide who they do business with. If a vendor decided to set the block level to 1 and someone else does not want to do business with you, then that's the vendor's choice -- take it up with them or move on to something else to spend your money on.

    Besides that, I don't see what your travails on Clickbank have anything to do with your issue with some JVzoo vendor. Just confusing the issue.
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    • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
      Originally Posted by Joe118 View Post

      SEO Soldier, I feel your original post is misguided.

      JVzoo is just a marketplace, they're providing a place where vendors can do business with clients. Just like noone is forcing you to buy a specific product, every vendor is also free to decide who they do business with. If a vendor decided to set the block level to 1 and someone else does not want to do business with you, then that's the vendor's choice -- take it up with them or move on to something else to spend your money on.

      Besides that, I don't see what your travails on Clickbank have anything to do with your issue with some JVzoo vendor. Just confusing the issue.
      The reason I mentioned Clickbank is because I was told that if, for example, I return something via Clickbank and that seller gets po'd about it he can also blacklist me on JVZoo even though I may never have bought anything from him on JVZoo. And the main problem with all this is this:

      Someone above from JVZoo wrote:
      "However, we do have a network blacklist that is completely controlled by the vendors.

      We allow them to set their "blacklist level" to a number they want to use. For example 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc. Let's say someone chooses 5 as their number. If you as the buyer are on 5 other vendors blacklist as one they do not want buying their products, then you're going to get blocked from buying that product too. And you are also blocked from anyone on the network that has their level set to 5 or below."

      Only let's say they choose 1 as their number...

      By the way, as to "moving on", I am moving on. I'm not losing any sleep over this. I simply posted as a method of providing "Full Disclosure" re what is happening to some people at JVZoo.

      And since most WSO's state something like "You can refund for any reason", I want people to realize that refunding may have a major downside. The WSO sellers often encourage people to buy their wares with this "money back guarantee" and I have seen them many times say something like, "Just try it and if you don't like it, I'll refund your money". So you buy it, refund it, and then end up getting blacklisted for it.

      So I am saying that a buyer should be very careful and only buy something they're pretty sure they will like or that will work well for them, because buying it "on spec" may lead to being blacklisted.

      And since I started the thread, I read responses and respond to them. That's all there is to it.
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  • Profile picture of the author rprosser
    I have recently encountered the same problem, for no good reason that I can think of.

    As I pointed out in my jvzoo support ticket recently, I have requested refunds several times before but then I believe that buyers have every right to do so, as essentially they are making purchases 'sight unseen'. Consequently I have sometimes sought to obtain repayments simply because I was already familiar with the material, or it was poorly presented.

    This is a perfectly legitimate policy IMO and I always promise to delete the relevant files once I get my money back; I often dump them anyway because they just take up disk space.

    So, I suppose that I may appear to some be a 'serial refunder' but I am definitely not! I also think that vendors should accept refunds as one of the risks of doing business online; they should simply ignore awkward people and spend their time more productively.

    As for jvzoo, I suggest that they indicate which vendor has raised the issue so that any disputes can be addressed in an open manner. The current policy is close to being libellous, IMO.
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  • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
    rprosser, I totally agree with you. First the sellers advertise on WSO forum saying, in answer to questions or objections, "Just buy it and if you don't like it, no problem, you can return it."

    They make a BIG point of saying "Absolutely NO risk! If you don't like it for ANY reason, you can return it for a full refund!"

    So instead of getting your specific questions answered or objections countered with information you can use to make an intelligent buying decision, they say "Just buy it and get a refund if you aren't happy for any reason."

    Then you do so and you risk getting blacklisted.

    It's a very very bad policy.

    I do understand the point of view of the seller who does in fact get "serial refunders" who have no intention of buying; these scumbags just want to get it then ask for a refund so they can get it free. This is a problem for sure and I don't blame them for looking for a solution to that problem.

    The problem with their solution is it punishes the innocent along with the guilty. They need to come up with a better solution, a more lenient definition of "serial refunder" perhaps. They seem to want their cake and eat it too. You can't say "Refund for ANY reason" and then punish people for refunding for a good reason. I say if a seller wants the right to blacklist someone for a few refunds, then they need to stop offering money back guarantees. That will lower their sales but so be it.

    By the way, my name seems to have been white listed after I wrote this. Maybe yours can be too. And just for the record: now I will keep a $10 total piece of SH*T WSO rather than refund it and risk getting blacklisted. I guess that's what they want us to do. The only problem with this policy as you mentioned is that many times the WSO's are very vague about what they are, and let's be honest, some just plain suck, so they NEED an easy refund policy. They shouldn't have it both ways.
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    • Profile picture of the author nmoppa01
      Originally Posted by seosoldier View Post

      rprosser, I totally agree with you. First the sellers advertise on WSO forum saying, in answer to questions or objections, "Just buy it and if you don't like it, no problem, you can return it."

      They make a BIG point of saying "Absolutely NO risk! If you don't like it for ANY reason, you can return it for a full refund!"

      So instead of getting your specific questions answered or objections countered with information you can use to make an intelligent buying decision, they say "Just buy it and get a refund if you aren't happy for any reason."

      Then you do so and you risk getting blacklisted.

      It's a very very bad policy.

      I do understand the point of view of the seller who does in fact get "serial refunders" who have no intention of buying; these scumbags just want to get it then ask for a refund so they can get it free. This is a problem for sure and I don't blame them for looking for a solution to that problem.

      The problem with their solution is it punishes the innocent along with the guilty. They need to come up with a better solution, a more lenient definition of "serial refunder" perhaps. They seem to want their cake and eat it too. You can't say "Refund for ANY reason" and then punish people for refunding for a good reason. I say if a seller wants the right to blacklist someone for a few refunds, then they need to stop offering money back guarantees. That will lower their sales but so be it.

      By the way, my name seems to have been white listed after I wrote this. Maybe yours can be too. And just for the record: now I will keep a $10 total piece of SH*T WSO rather than refund it and risk getting blacklisted. I guess that's what they want us to do. The only problem with this policy as you mentioned is that many times the WSO's are very vague about what they are, and let's be honest, some just plain suck, so they NEED an easy refund policy. They shouldn't have it both ways.
      Well, cheap products have the risk of low quality, just think twice or better even more before you hit the buy button. It seems there are tons of people on WF that just buy any product when it is 7 bucks, just because it is cheap. They are very happy to state "was I #1?" :confused:. That said, if it is a digital download without activation keys or the possibility to deactivate after a refund, there are alot of freebie hunters who ask for refunds when they have the product. Blacklisting buyers without any reason is wrong, blacklisting people who are know to be freebie hunters is right. As always, some "good" guys will suffer from this bad behavior, however, we also see that people who have good arguments are reinstated on JVZoo. So take action if needed, seems to be the best advice here.

      Charles
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      Hi,

      I am Charles van Veen, CEO at NMO International, based in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. We focus on Internet Marketing. Please visit: http://www.workfromhomeviainternet.com

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  • Profile picture of the author Terry Jett
    We are very happy that JVZoo allows us to block certain refunders or use a list created by other marketers.

    Cuts way back on chargebacks which are becoming a huge problem. Paypal really frowns on it. Does not take many before your account is placed on "high risk".

    The only time we blacklist a buyer is they either perform a chargeback or ask for a refund within hour of downloading.

    Very powerful tool and works.
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    • Profile picture of the author seosoldier
      Originally Posted by Terry Jett View Post

      We are very happy that JVZoo allows us to block certain refunders or use a list created by other marketers.

      Cuts way back on chargebacks which are becoming a huge problem. Paypal really frowns on it. Does not take many before your account is placed on "high risk".

      The only time we blacklist a buyer is they either perform a chargeback or ask for a refund within hour of downloading.

      Very powerful tool and works.
      I wasn't going to respond to this thread again because I said my piece, I am no longer blacklisted and that's that.

      But I will respond to this by saying I was blacklisted and it was not for either of the reasons you mention here. In fact my record was excellent.

      I have reason to believe I was blackballed by one particularly vindictive a-hole who sells total crap (not a Warrior, or at least hasn't been for a long time now). I think it was him, because his was the only refund I had that was more than $10-15, and there were only 2-3 others that I refunded - this over a period of time and represents maybe 10% of JVZoo purchases I'd made up to that point. All my refunds were for legit reasons, none were within an hour or even a week, and all were crappy wso's that got a lot of refunds due to their foul aroma.

      So if that's true that one vendor can blackball you for one refund then that's b.s..

      Like I say, I am "over it" because for whatever reason I was un-blackballed. But I want to set the record straight as far as saying what you said above is NOT always the case.
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      • Profile picture of the author atlantarobin
        Keep the facts, change your viewpoint and the players, and you can quickly see how the feds will inevitably shut that down... at least in the United States... with financial, civil, and possibly criminal penalties for those they name as "conspirators."

        But given the "strong arm" financial tactics used by such conspiratorial "enterprises," the feds may choose to add a RICO charge in there, too, for "extorting" money from buyers who want to refund, but who fear stiff consequences for exercising advertised rights, including financial hardship and blackballing from future purchases from those whom they've never purchased from before.

        Whenever a group of businesses or entrepreneurs sit down and decide to create a "class" of buyers against which they will discriminate or retaliate against... and that discrimination or retaliation has a financial cost or price tag contrary to the law... the feds call that a violation of the Sherman Act or Antitrust Act.

        Whenever you have a money-back "guarantee, but discriminate or retaliate against those who do so... and that discrimination or retaliation has a financial cost, damage or price tag to the buyer, that's false advertising which local lawyers and state's attorney generals have an interest in stopping.

        Whenever you create a written list of folks you proclaim as "financially risky," pass that list around, and financially discriminate against those on the list, local lawyers anywhere have a good cause of action for defamation and libel.

        The fact that the LIST was created to prevent PAYPAL from taking negative action against a seller for too many refunds only strengthens any of these cases, as it's clear retaliation. Few buyers, on the other hand, even know about Paypal's seller policies and the penalties for having too many refunds. Paypal's penalty is in direct response to calculating how risky financial transactions with that seller are. For the seller to conspire with other sellers to strongarm buyers NOT to refund SHOULD be immediate cause for Paypal to dump them -- permanently!

        THE LIST... is bad... all the way around... for buyers, sellers, Paypal, banks, JVZoo, and those who find themselves on the BlackBalled Buyers/Refunders Hit List.

        But BEFORE it's covered up, the feds NEED to get a copy of THE LIST... and go after EVERYONE who conspired to libel, slander, defame, extort, penalize, discriminate against or project any other ignorant bully tactic against unsuspecting buyers who DARE to spend their money with a conspiratorial member of this MAFIOSO-LIKE MOB.

        Sellers, I get it. There are some rip-off buyers out there who steal your products daily. But the minute you create an international financial strong arm Cabal to deal with your own legal issues so you don't have to, your real risk goes through the roof! At least here in the United States of America.

        I LOVE JVZoo. So I'm not exactly sure WHY JVZoo would put up with "hosting" hands-off blackballing party lists. But I'm quite sure if they "destroy" the list, that would most certainly get them in even more trouble. It really is inevitable.

        But, alas... I think I might be putting that all a bit too... mildly?

        Ignorance of the law... of common sense... is not bliss.

        It's just stupid.

        Or is everyone so impressed with our recent Wall Street scam artist's getaway tricks that they think there won't be repercussions?

        There is ONE LITTLE THING JVZoo could easily do to help mitigate the damages caused by this financial "conspiracy" to trick Paypal and unknowing buyers.

        JVZoo can ADD A BLACKBALL MEMBER LIST NOTICE to ALL Seller Pages created through JVZoo.

        Want to discriminate against buyers? Want to run a 100% No-Hassle Refund Guarantee on your JVZoo Seller Page but still want to BLACKBALL certain buyers to prevent them from purchasing your products through JVZoo?

        Great! Fine! But be transparent about it, so other buyers can be forewarned of what you may have in mind for them, too.

        JVZoo, add the Seller BlackBall List Member transparency notice to Seller Pages for those who subscribe to your BlackBall List.

        At least then YOU can claim transparency. At least that would be a good start.

        Just keep a copy of that membership list -- names and emails of both BlackBallers and BlackBalled -- as at some point someone is sure to take offense at the destruction of this evidence.

        But, alas... I'm quite sure I'm putting that... mildly.

        Robin Carlisle
        (That's MY name. But what's YOUR name, BLACKBALLER)?
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        • Profile picture of the author Chris Grable
          I wonder if JVZoo protects buyers, with legitimate reasons to request refunds, from product providers with crappy products and high refund rates.

          Can you be blacklisted by someone that you have NOT purchased from?

          Interesting discussion.

          Chris
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  • Profile picture of the author atlantarobin
    JVZoo has a training video called "JVZoo Buyer Blacklist - You Asked For It And Here It Is!"

    LINK:
    DESCRIPTION: Uploaded on Jan 12, 2012
    https://www.jvzoo.com Ban serial refunders from purchasing your products and tap into the peer group blacklist to protect your from serial refunders!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------

    I understand the need to protect sellers against "fraud" or illegal practices, but defining someone who asks for a refund 1 time in all their life as a "serial refunder" and banning them... and encouraging others to ban them is simply wrong.

    Defining a serial refunder as one who asks for three purchases to be refunded because the first tool they buy is for PC only and they have a Mac, the second tool doesn't work at all, and the third purchase was followed by 60 daily emails asking for help to download it to no avail... is just wrong.

    JVZoo's definition of serial refunder is flawed, as the way the Buyer Blacklist is being shared and used has nothing to do with any action by the Buyer EXCEPT asking for a refund under a 100% No-Hassle 30-Day Refund Guarantee advertised by sellers.

    The Buyer Blacklist is to prevent Paypal from taking appropriate action against unscrupulous sellers who want to retaliate against buyers who refund for whatever reason -- period.

    Both Paypal and a Buyer should have the right to know if a Buyer buying through JVZoo has been placed on the JVZoo Buyer Blacklist for simply asking for a refund through Paypal. No one teaches Buyers NOT to ask for a refund through Paypal. No one.

    Perhaps that would be a good "Buyer training" video for JVZoo to provide for their sellers to give buyers. Yes, it may give them a weapon to use against a seller, if they want to be mean. But it educates Buyers who have no clue that they're SUPPOSED to go through the seller's support system BEFORE going to Paypal.

    As it stands, there's no BUYER BEWARE sticker letting Buyers know whether they're on anyone's list or warning them they MIGHT be penalized if they dare to ask for a refund under any refund guarantee. Is there?

    Obviously, this is the fourth year buyers have been blackballed or threatened with same. It's time Sellers STOP ticking that Buyer BlackBall box to share their blacklists with others.

    It's never too late to do the right thing.
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