Michael, all I can say is...welcome to the real world.

And it gets even uglier than that.

This is why I will never, never, never, never, never outsource my article
writing.

If I can't write it...it don't get written.

Bad English and all.

Michael, the problem you are facing is the teaching that many writing coaches give, and that includes some warriors. They say take an article and make each paragraph into a tip, or take 7 tips and make it into more tips. For some reason they don't see that as copying which of course it is.

I have yet to find a single client who has asked for articles to be written in a lit format, 7 tips or 3 tips.

I never recommend someone reads an article directory when they do research on a subject. Two reasons, a lot of them have misinformation included in the articles, and too many are so badly written why would you want to use them?

I don't know what niches you are in, but I do know a number of people who we have been teaching who do not copy articles.

Doing it yourself or making a bot do it for you is the only way to succeed.

-Howlinghawk

100% agree, can be VERY hard to get good ones. As i wrote in the other thread, i really think most of them don't realize how bad those article actually are ;/

Too harsh? I think you've been more than generous in not demanding your money back Michael. To my way of thinking that's pretty close to obtaining money by deception.

Nigel

That's the problem with internet marketing as an industry. 90% or more of the content online is just rehashed. Truly unique content is a rare thing, and writers who are good at what they do are also in the minority.

You do get what you pay for. Although high quality content might cost a little more, just think on the difference it will contribute to your business as opposed to low quality content. You might get enough traffic from just one unique article to cover the cost.

That's not writing, it's plagiarism in some cases and simply unethical in others.

Biting the hand that feeds you that way doesn't make any business sense at all, and I'd certainly think twice before paying for work like that.

Do you think adding some sort of non compete agreement would make a difference?

Not that it will make things easier for yourself or the rest of us, but where you do you get your article outsourcing done?

I have had some good experiences with writter through rentacoder.

You have to watch everything like a hawk. I completely avoid emerging markets, you must be a native english speaker.

I absolutely hate writing articles so outsourcing is my only option.

Instead of hiring a writer have you considered partnering with a writer? You do the marketing, backlinking etc. They write the content. That way they have the motivation to produce the best content possible without turning around and packaging it as PLR, or submitting it to article directories. Obviously there would be hurdles to establishing a working business relationship, but it could ultimately solve your problem of finding an honest and reliable freelancer.

I think the $4 market may dry up...I don't think this is an area that will see competition continue to drive prices lower as people realize over time their content is worthless. While I don't think it is cool for people to raise prices on you DURING a project, those that deliver quality content will simply have to raise their prices over time to continue to deliver quality, original, on time content. People have told me that $10/article is ridiculous and that no one pays those rates...well, I wonder what their IM efforts are pulling in for them monthly?

I'm sorry, but I have several people working for me creating articles relatively inexpensively. I simply cannot run my business without offloading some of the work, it is that simple. If I stop outsourcing, I stop growing. Don't give up trying to find good writers and people to help you out. Doing it all yourself is great until a certain point. After that, it is either find help or stop growing your business.

TomG.

Hi Michael,

I am a writer and I have a group of women that write for me for private clients. Each one signs an NDA, I approve all work and I have never had any issues. It is really sad to read that you experienced such a lack of integrity from the people you have worked with.

There are many quality writers out there who would never dream of selling your research, spinning your articles etc. Writers who believe in providing value to you and who value you as a client. And many of them will write 500 words for $10. (Though I am not one of them ) It is just a matter of finding a few quality writers that you can trust.

It is sad you have been taken advantage of and I hope you find quality, ethical writers in the future.

On the backside of management from one of these larger content houses, I used to deal with writers who were part of my group who exhibited poor moral business ethics in engaging in some of the activities listed in this thread.
See, some of my writers are actually outsourcers themselves, but i didn't know it at the time. I've made it a point when hiring writers that the only work that they would contribute to a project was made specifically by them. That wasn't the case a couple of years ago..

My background is in the realm of computer forensics and the law. Needless to say, I have a couple of specialty tools that enable me to see whether someone is being truthful or not most of the time when they send me completed content for client delivery. I weeded out a bunch of writers that way, but it as a business owner it opened myself to a world of liability and if my bottom wasn't being kept- unique content paid for.

In my opinion, after you find a decent writer (and there is no shortage of places to find them), it's really not hard at all...

I hire writers to write one or two blog posts a week for me based around a keyword list I provide. Let's say we agree one one article a week, and I pay $40 a month. As long as my ROI per month from that blog is higher than my expense, I am not only profiting - but it's automated growth to my blog. That blog then becomes a self-sustaining business, and as an asset it grows in value for every post that my writer produces.

You should contact these writers for your money back!

I'm fortunate that I have worked with a lot of great, ethical writers in my time (they are out there!!), but there are some stinkers too, as evidenced by your experience.

I agree with asking for a non-compete agreement. Draw something up that specifies you are requesting unique work, and that you are the sole owner of the rights. This will "scare off" someone who might consider using your work in the ways you describe.

Thankfully, I haven't run across any writing coaches who teach to just rewrite tips out of articles, like Bev was mentioning (that's not to say that tips articles aren't good -- they can be VERY effective for article marketing. It's just bad when you rewrite an article someone else wrote in the tip format..aka plagiarism ). I teach my students the importance of quality research, from a wide variety of credible sources.

While many students are aware of these techniques, there are some who are shocked that you can't just rewrite. However, the vast majority of the writers I have worked with are quality, honest, and hard working. I promise you they are out there!

The writers you describe give all of us a bad name!

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Michael,

Ever thought about hiring locally?

The only downside is, you would have to train them yourself. However, that could be a good thing as you would be receiving content to your exact specifications.

Plus, it's easier if they have no experience. They don't think they "know it all", they're open to instruction, and they very rarely have the urge to compete with you or repurpose the work.

In fact, when you are ready to upgrade from part-time freelancers to full-time staff, your local writers will be easier to corral because usually, you are their only "client".

Some ideas: You can hire a few college students or retired people to start. Let them do lesser niches as they will have the highest turnover. Have them write the first 5 articles for free to test quality, accuracy, and timeliness. (free content)

Also, if you run ads in your local paper and use headlines like "Writer Needed" or "Like To Write?", I'd immediately follow with "No experience needed." Sometimes people only glance and assume they need a college degree or journalism background.

Anyway, could work for you if you find the time to train them. Thoughts?

-Jeff

Wow! I simply can't believe what some people will do. Reselling your articles? Copying others' work?

I don't blame you for not hiring those writers again.

Love,
Shannon

We are looking at this all wrong I think lol,
put it like this, say you find that great perfect writer and you pay them well and they create a great original article just as you required, then one of your competitors will simply reword/rewrite your article and publish it anyway, what im trying to say is unfortunately it really wouldnt make much of a difference even if you found a great honest writer because the results will be the same.

What we should all do is accept that this happens because its not going to change so as long as your articles are reasonably genuine and you get them out there first and you get your desired effect ie links traffic ROI then you shouldnt worry about others copying you because you cant control or change it. So long as outsourcing is growing your business then that is what should count.

I cannot afford NOT to outsource. There aren't enough hours in the day.

The situation is even worse with PLR articles that come with a resourse box and a link back to goarticles!

First of all some of the stuff you mention is just plain wrong. It's shocking that people will stoop to selling your research or reselling articles you paid for.
But...I'm going to play devils advocate a little here.

Article Marketing and BUM Marketing are two terms that tend to be used almost interchangably. Travis provides a how to that does basically what you are complaining about in terms of content. Quote "All the research you need is already done". Just go to an article director - find something already written on the subject and rewrite it as your own.

The difference is in the word 'rewrite'. SOme people think that means change a few words, others think it means rephrase it in your own language, still others think it means use it as a starting point for your own articles.

Personally, when I do freelance writing(and I rarely do now having all my time soaked up between my little girls and studying for MS certification) I've found that it's not worth my effort(research time vs income) to accept less than blocks of ten articles on a topic, and when I get that you go to the library find an 'idiots guide to (topic) and you've got a reliable source of information on the topic that's already been through an editor/quality control etc etc.

Article directories are far from a reliable research source. I conducted a little experiement some time back where I presented an article on property flipping to a number of article directories. It had 5 deliberately FALSE facts in(incorrect reporting of government regulations, false statistics and Referring to Hillary CLinton as the Russian president) and only 1 of 5 article directories rejected the article(and then based on the link not the content). Worse still there were cloned articles of that feature within a week. To their credit all the article directories removed the content within 5 days of me emailing them my results(one blocked my account).

Anyway, slight tangent there. My point is that in many cases the first introduction people have to online writing is the 'rehash an article' approach, and when the BUM marketing doesn't pay for them immediately they resort to the 'instant cash' of freelance writing. Using a site like rentacoder provides you with ALOT of protection. Use an experienced writer and don't be afraid to go back to rentacoder two weeks later if you find them reselling your work. Rentacoder pretty much always sides with the buyers in disputes(you guys bring the money to the site).

I use need-an-article.net and have no problems. Get unique articles for cheap and done in a reasonable amount of time.

Hey Michael,

Well there are always some risks when outsourcing anything! All I can say is that you truly get what you pay for... I mean if I was working with a writer that did some things to me I would ask for 100% refund of my money! So you are not being too harsh, not at all... ;D

You say you can't afford to pay $20 or $30 to have an article written but the real question is: would you rather pay $30 to have a great article and work with someone that meets deadlines and delivers great content (and does not copy it ;D) or to have six articles (paying $5 for each) and then find out that the provider copied them and put them on the web or sold plr to them? I mean, it makes you think!

Anyway not all outsourcing is an headache but it takes some time to find a good, professional and reliable worker ;D

Best
James

I do have the contact of a great writer who is loyal and produce quality stuff at a great rate, but that's really a One in almost 30 writers i tried, so i got lucky. If anyone wants the contact , just drop me a pm.

I agree that plently of outsources writers either sucks, or are not reliable.

I've never done any of those things- and I also regularly outsource and they don't do it either.
one thing I've learnt is if anything is happening to you on a regular basis- look at your processes- it will be that that is at fault.

Outsourcing CAN work and DOES work, and it CAN save you a lot of time, if you are smart enough during your hiring process.

The hiring process should be almost identical to that of actually hiring someone for a traditional job. A simple "you look okay, go for it..." will only result in this very situation.

Learn to outsource correctly, and hire good people, and you wont have this problem.

Or it's just the opposite. Inexperience means one may make more hiring mistakes. But find the writing team and you've got a great asset on your side.

Alice

I don't believe that writing articles yourself is normally the best way. by outsourcing, you have more free time to add income streams, expand business, work on new products etc.

The question is how to effectively out source article writing. Don't have an answer to that one

You can outsource writing, there are good writers out there. But you are unlikely to find them on Warrior Forum, Digital Point, or a freelancing site. I've made the offers, and the only replies I get on forums suffer the problems the original poster mentioned. They give you XXX words of garbage.

Real writers are usually not exclusively web workers like us, that's why you can't hire them here. Post a job listing on CareerBuilder or Monster.com or Craigslist.

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[DELETED]

Outsourcing is definitely useful and the basic premise is simple... but I agree it's not easy to accomplish.

If you had stated your conditions beforehand, then it's absolutely unforgivable for the writer to breach the terms of agreement e.g. by selling your articles as PLR. But if we don't state our terms clearly at the start, then we really have to share part of the blame for our oversight.

And it's important to remember there are crooks everywhere so I suppose this comes with the territory if you want to look for outside help.

That doesn't mean there aren't good and ethical writers out there though. You just have to keep looking and managing the ones you have already found. And if you ever find a cheap and good and fast writer, then count your lucky stars because that's a real gem.

And if you are feeling generous, do come back here and give us a heads-up or something. I for one am always looking for value-for-money writers. :-)

With me it has taken me four years to find a decent one - unfortunately that is the way it goes and you can do nothing about it. You now need to find your one good one!!!

kind regards


sam
X

With all the talk about outsourcing as the answer to making a decent income online, this post definitely gave me some things to watch out for if I do decide to outsource articles:
*Keyword research being sold
*Writing articles for themselves from your research

Thanks

Michael, I have learned the hard way that in some...many...most cases you get what you pay for when you outsource your article writing. That's why I write my own articles. Sure, it takes some time, but how much time do you spend with people who don't care about anything but how much money they can get from you?

It ain't worth it.

But don't give up on article marketing. I still believe that it's one of the most effective and least expensive ways to drive targeted leads to your website or blog.

Maybe searching for writers outside the usual Internet Marketing circles will get you better results? You'll also likely pay a little bit more.

Tyrus

Then you pay the one decent writer a hundred bucks for ten articles, and when you go over them, you find that one of them is crap you can't use. So you've paid $200 for ten usable articles, or $20 an article - plus you've had to examine 21 articles, for let's say ten minutes each. That's two and a half hours.

If your time is worth at least $40 an hour, that's another $100, for a grand total of $300... and you may as well have hired the $30 writer! Not to mention he probably would have delivered faster!

You pay for what you get. What you don't pay in cash, you'll pay in time, effort, and aggravation.

Its not outsourcing that is the issue.

It comes down to checking your work, dont pay until its checked, pretty simple

That is why outsourcing services provide the escrow option to avoid these issues

Hi Michael
Sorry to hear about your troubles...I've been fortunate to find a really reliable and high quality writer, it took a fair bit of selection but it was definetly worth the effort.
Thanks for sharing
cheers
Steve

I know for sure that I'm a better writer than I am an SEO guy and I often ask all of you for that advice on that front. As an article writer, I hope that I'm not one of those people that you are talking about. I have more job offers than I have time and, in fact, I have a waiting list. I'm far from the cheapest charging $15 per 500 word article. I'm not the most expensive but if caring had a price, I would be far more expensive. I only mention that because, as it has been said, there are plenty of people out there who are writing who work hard at giving the best product.

From my perspective, there can be a few problems on the other side. If you are hiring a writer, you need to be specific as to what you want. For example, I have been told that certain articles are being used only for article directories so ground breaking content at a ground breaking price isn't needed because the article probably won't be read anyway. (That doesn't stop me from working hard at the article but that's an example.)

Tell them what you want, give them ample time to complete it, provide feedback, and allow the writer to maximize their time by giving them similiar topics so research can be consolidated as much as possible. Finally, pick your keywords in a way that allows for creativity. "5 ways to save money when eating out" has been done to death and it makes creating original content that will turn heads more difficult.

In short, be a partner in the creation rather than simply a client. Creation is a less than scientific process and it takes all stakeholders to make it great, especially if the writer is new.

I'm happy to say that out of the thousands of articles I've written, only a small few have been returned from an unhappy customer. Not only do I make it right, I write 3 for free to make up for the time they lost. Good writers understand superior customer service.

I've had hard time with outsourcing, but then there are a few "gems" out there, you'll need to look real hard to uncover them .. Once you have them working for you, there's no looking back ... So yeah, ain't easy but totally works.

Internet is full of baloney and many so called gurus talk about outsourcing even though they have not tried it. Having problems finding good writers should not be a hindrance to outsourcing your writing. Treat it like finding good employees for your company, you just have to keep looking. I've found a good writer on rentacoder, some here on WF, and also through references. There's no way you can increase productivity without outsourcing.

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For quality articles I've been lucky enough to know a few people who were naturally good writer's and I then just needed to train them on the SEO aspects of article writing.

In order to keep the information they were writing about fresh I instructed them to research over numerous sources of information absorbing the facts and points of whatever they would be writing about.

Again these people are naturally good writer's of the english language and are able to apply this knowledge into a completely original article of their own.

So I just want to say outsourcing can be great and allow for other marketing ventures to get accomplished as long as you are using writer's worth their 5 or 10 dollars an article.

Ouch. This is a timely thread for me... I was just about to look for writers to hire