I'm Switching To A No PayPal Biz Model

54 replies
Yes as the title reads I am going to be selling my products away from PP to keep the serial refunders away and for other reasons.

I know PayPal is used by 80% of this industry but they just aren't my #1 go to platform anymore.

are there currently any warriors that are doing a non PP payment system? How is it working?


P.S. I won't stop using platforms such as JVzoo or W+, I am just going to be using different payment systems such as stride and authorize.net through those payment systems.
#biz #model #papal #switching
  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    PayPal is how many/most customers want and expect to pay, I think?

    When you say you'll still use JVZoo and W+, presumably you mean that your customers will still be able to pay by PayPal, but you're not going to use your own PayPal account to collect your money from the affiliate network? No great problem with that, as far as I can see? As long as your customers can buy by PayPal?

    (I also wouldn't want the bulk of my own income to be PayPal-dependent, but the majority of my income comes from ClickBank and Amazon, and they don't pay out by PayPal anyway.)

    .
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    • Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

      PayPal is how many/most customers want and expect to pay, I think?

      When you say you'll still use JVZoo and W+, presumably you mean that your customers will still be able to pay by PayPal, but you're not going to use your own PayPal account to collect your money from the affiliate network? No great problem with that, as far as I can see? As long as your customers can buy by PayPal?

      (I also wouldn't want the bulk of my own income to be PayPal-dependent, but the majority of my income comes from ClickBank and Amazon, and they don't pay out by PayPal anyway.)

      .

      Alexa that's exactly the thing. I became so PayPal dependent that my little empire fell and put a massive kink in my chain. However, clickbank is VERY strict about the products in their system now.

      However, yes I do presume that my customers would be allowed to pay via PP.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

        However, clickbank is VERY strict about the products in their system now.
        It depends what you mean by "very strict".

        They're closer to being legal, ethical, decent and FTC-compliant than most affiliate networks, certainly. For myself, I wouldn't promote anything that couldn't pass ClickBank's minimal (in my view) regulatory/legal appraisal, anyway.

        Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

        However, yes I do presume that my customers would be allowed to pay via PP.
        That should be ok, then? Like you, I wouldn't want to collect any serious amounts of money by PayPal if I could reasonably avoid it. But clearly it would be very unwise to have a system with which customers can't pay by PayPal at all. (Unless, perhaps, you're selling 4/5-figure products, but I'm guessing that's not what we're talking about at all?).

        .
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    • Profile picture of the author Arby15
      A business without PP is like Christmas with NO tree....gotta have it nec. evil.
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  • Profile picture of the author WillR
    The number of extra customers you get by offering Paypal as a payment option should far outweigh the number of customers you get refunding because of Paypal. If not then it's an issue with your product that needs solving, not your payment processor.

    Also, I win every single digital refund request with Paypal if they are obvious serial refunders. So this has never been an issue with me.
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  • Profile picture of the author DubDubDubDot
    I'm guessing from your title and sig that you are selling get rich quick info products. Refunds are just a fact of the niche. Process the refunds no questions asked and move on. It sounds like you are trying to push back and prevent the refunds. At that point they are going to call their credit card company and chargebacks are going to kill you.
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    • Originally Posted by DubDubDubDot View Post

      I'm guessing from your title and sig that you are selling get rich quick info products. Refunds are just a fact of the niche. Process the refunds no questions asked and move on. It sounds like you are trying to push back and prevent the refunds. At that point they are going to call their credit card company and chargebacks are going to kill you.

      Not at all.... Not at all with get rich quick methods. Thats not a business model.

      I am not concerned with the refunds. I just don't like being at paypals mercy where they can limit my account for now reason. My RR has never been high, EVER.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

        Not at all with get rich quick methods.
        Says he, having just removed from his signature-file the get-rich-quick income-claim that was there a few minutes ago!

        (Looks like you forgot to take away the "3months6figures" bit, under your username, though?).

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author techservice
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          Says he, having just removed from his signature-file the get-rich-quick income-claim that was there a few minutes ago!

          (Looks like you forgot to take away the "3months6figures" bit, under your username, though?).

          .
          Dan is a talented seller of MMO, in essence we are all selling crap on the internet to some degree.
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          • Profile picture of the author heavysm
            MMO tends to attract the people with the money problems thus the reason why they might be problematic when it comes to refunds/chargebacks etc.

            The marketers whom i have met that have no problems with their MMO products and paypal, whilst having a sufficiently high volumes of sales, often have to up the ante when it comes to standard of quality of their products.

            There was once a little known 150+ page ebook on clickbank that sold for $97 in the MMO market and the content was amazing. So regardless of the price people were willing to pay above average price for an ebook because it delivered on what it promised plus more.

            The only people i know of who have to switch out their payment processors due to customer payment problems are those who have continuity programs. Those monthly charges tend not to go through which can be problematic for paypal business owners.

            My only suggestion aside from adding more value to your product: would giving out a free trial be viable for you? If your content is solid and you want to weed out the people who aren't going to pay you anyway, perhaps that's something you should think about.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    You may want to check out DealGuardian: Fees | DealGuardian

    Also, take a look at the homepage of the site and click on the vendors tab... they have a lot of the same features as JVZoo and W+

    Your customers can still pay via PayPal, then DealGuardian can pay you through bank wire or check.

    That means YOUR PayPal account is never in jeopardy.
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  • Profile picture of the author nik0
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

    Yes as the title reads I am going to be selling my products away from PP to keep the serial refunders away and for other reasons.

    I know PayPal is used by 80% of this industry but they just aren't my #1 go to platform anymore.

    are there currently any warriors that are doing a non PP payment system? How is it working?


    P.S. I won't stop using platforms such as JVzoo or W+, I am just going to be using different payment systems such as stride and authorize.net through those payment systems.
    How about you launch products that don't attract serial refunders?

    Serial refunders is a sign of a crappy product and good for Paypal they lock accounts from people who deal with them.

    I am 100 percent dependent on Paypal and never did I have an issue with them, sure they locked my account once but that was solved in 48 hours and for my own safety as I typed my password wrong a few times due to capslock being enabled, this required some documents to be send but that should never be a problem. In fact they wanted me to verify by creditcard but when I told them I didn't have one it could be done in different ways as well, they were very helpful and very fast. Ok it happened on a saturday night but monday morning 9:30am they got back to me immidiately and at the end of the day I got my documents with them and in a matter of hours my account was accessible again. So if it happened on a week day it would have been taken care of in a matter of hours instead of 48 hours.

    Another time they asked some questions about my business eg where my clients came from and I told them I have several sales threads on this forum and once again everything was fine.

    People should stop blaming Paypal and do a reality check on their selves.

    Have to say of the 1000's of sales I made I only had to refund a dozen times or so and mostly cause a client forgot to cancel their subscription on time (like few days too late) so my account is in very good standing.

    In case you run an LLC you are a bit limited and then it can become nasty based on what my lawyer told me.
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  • Profile picture of the author travlinguy
    Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

    P.S. I won't stop using platforms such as JVzoo or W+, I am just going to be using different payment systems such as stride and authorize.net through those payment systems.
    Don't these two companies require you have a refund policy in place before they accept your business? Don't these two companies deal heavily with the IM "Industry?"
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  • Profile picture of the author SnackMemory
    Bitcoin is now being used increasingly as an alterative to pay pal. Due to its irreversible nature. It also has low fees to send.
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    • Profile picture of the author KenW3
      Originally Posted by SnackMemory View Post

      Bitcoin is now being used increasingly as an alterative to pay pal.
      Bitcoin is no alternative to acceptance of widely used payment services. I don't know which country you are in, but our taxing authority here, the IRS, treats Bitcoin as an investment. It must be handled the same as buying or receiving stocks and bonds.

      The basis must be recorded by the person or company for each sale at the time of receipt, then gains and losses are filed on a Schedule D when Bitcoin is used for a purchase, exchanged for currency, or used for a different investment.

      This is a formidable obstacle to acceptance for both individuals and companies - not worth the hassle.
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  • Profile picture of the author CSmitty
    You should switch to an affiliate manager that does more than just PayPal anyway. I have been using PayGear on my site and it is wonderful. You can run instant commission with PayPal, Bitcoin or Authorize.net. Your not just stick in PayPal.
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    • Profile picture of the author ChrisDouthit
      Originally Posted by CSmitty View Post

      You should switch to an affiliate manager that does more than just PayPal anyway. I have been using PayGear on my site and it is wonderful. You can run instant commission with PayPal, Bitcoin or Authorize.net. Your not just stick in PayPal.

      Thank you for recommending PayGear. Giving the customer several options of payment is something I have always found to be best and setting your own refund policy is what every online business should do. You know your product best and a blanket one size fits all refund policy is ridicules.

      Have a good product, be fair to your customer and you should have minimum refunds.
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  • Profile picture of the author hometutor
    I communicate good with PayPal, let them know when I'm doing something that will bring in a lot of money. I keep wondering what you are selling that gets so many returns.

    Rick
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

      Yes as the title reads I am going to be selling my products away from PP to keep the serial refunders away and for other reasons.
      Paypal is NOT the reason for any problem you may have with serial refunders. Look instead to the products you are selling and/or the platform that you sell from.

      For instance, Clickbank is notorious for rolling over and playing dead whenever anyone requests a refund. They automatically approve ALL refund requests, simply because it's easier (and therefore cheaper for them) than trying to manage individual refund requests.

      If you are using any high profile affiliate marketplace to advertise products (i.e. CB, JVZoo, W+ to name just a few), your primary "customer" becomes affiliate marketers. There are a lot of good affiliate marketers out there, but there are also a lot of shady affiliate marketers who will use refund guarantees just to get a free "review" copy.

      Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

      Alexa that's exactly the thing. I became so PayPal dependent that my little empire fell and put a massive kink in my chain.
      This sounds like the decision wasn't yours. Should your subject line be modified to say "Paypal Switched me to a No Paypal Biz Model"?

      Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

      People should stop blaming Paypal and do a reality check on their selves.

      Have to say of the 1000's of sales I made I only had to refund a dozen times or so and mostly cause a client forgot to cancel their subscription on time (like few days too late) so my account is in very good standing.
      Like nik0, I've used Paypal as my payment processor since forever (~10 years) and have had only 1 problem with my account - which they resolved about 3 hours.

      Whichever payment processor you use... be sure to understand/abide by their terms of service. Your relationship with Paypal or any other processor is a business relationship. Treat it like one!
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    • Originally Posted by hometutor View Post

      I communicate good with PayPal, let them know when I'm doing something that will bring in a lot of money. I keep wondering what you are selling that gets so many returns.

      Rick
      I never once said my products had a high RF rate.

      I have noticed and tracked the same people always requesting refunds and sometimes even fraudulent charges (according to paypal) for higher ticket items. Credit Card / Bank account attached paypal and the hacker over took the account (one instance).

      Another I got an email from someone saying "I realized I couldn't read most of what you had to offer"....

      C'mon.. this guy has to read the whole sales page before he bought to understand what he was getting.

      It doesn't stop those people from asking but it sure as heck can stop majority of the fraud that I don't want to be apart of.
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      • Profile picture of the author Anderson2014
        I had one merchant account through one gateway company and after one charge back on one purchase, they closed my account calling my industry "high risk".

        They knew I was offering hosting as it is a part of the application process. So why approve me if the industry was "high risk"?

        That charge back never asked for a refund nor contact me at any point.

        So that 15 buck sale cost me 60 bucks and my gateway.

        PayPal a similar thing happened a month later and cost me nothing! I even got my fees back.

        With the gateway that closed my account, I had to wait 3 months to get my thousands back that were in the account. Sucks having income and operating funds locked up.

        I'll take PP thank you very much.
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  • Profile picture of the author SwitchMIA
    Bitcoin is a lot more powerful then you think, theirs even an dedicated bitcoin social network

    http://www.warriorforum.com/social-m...l-network.html

    I didnt stop paypal for my business but did add an extra payment option bitcoin, best thing i did
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    I know a person. He used to use pay pal a lot years ago. Did many thousands of dollars per year. Then the serial refund game came. Like they would download the product and claim all kinds of things such as my son stole my credit cards - yes my son.

    Well, he got tired and tired so uses western union now. People need to pay up. He sends the reports via snail mail now. There is no more digital delivery and he is doing super. Old ways are the best ways says me.
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  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
    I know a guy, who knew a guy, and he said...
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  • Profile picture of the author Robinsh123
    I think, you will loose some prospects because of the limitation that they could not be able to pay using their PayPal account, anyway good luck !
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    • Profile picture of the author timfleagle
      Taking money out of your own pocket good luck not sure why you would want to limit your sales
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    • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
      Hi Robin,

      Originally Posted by Robinsh123 View Post

      I think, you will loose some prospects because of the limitation that they could not be able to pay using their PayPal account, anyway good luck !
      The buyer doesn't need to have a Paypal account.
      Paypal also accepts all major credit/debit cards, and electronic check payment.

      If your buyer is not able to pay via one of those methods - you don't need them.
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  • I accept other methods of payment than PayPal. If someone wants to give me money, I try to make it as easy as possible. Usually that's PayPal, but other people have their own preferences.
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  • Profile picture of the author MarketingPete
    Paypal can and do freeze accounts for no reason at all. This was even on BBC Watchdog. They now even sometimes ask for documents that you wouldn't have or don't exist. For example; If you've only been trading 3 months they ask for 6 months accounts! How is this possible? Yet they do it.

    Unfortunately, as an internet marketer you have no choice but to accept this, as i think even with their problems and risks, Paypal is an option that is expected by the consumer and by not accepting paypal you stand to lose alot of potential sales.
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  • Profile picture of the author Edwin Torres
    I use DealGuardian to sell my products. It is similar to ClickBank where you can list products and have affiliates promote it. They can pay out through check, bank wire transfer, or (the dreaded) Paypal haha.

    Try it out
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  • Profile picture of the author dvduval
    We are up to 9 payment processors we use and growing. Don't see any reason to limit yourself. Paypal is one of the best for receiving payments from all over the world, but the rates are a little higher. I like Bluepay, Bluefin, and Meritus for Bank/CC transactions.
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  • Profile picture of the author ghost209
    for everyone here that thinks paypal is a necessary evil or a must have..
    do you guys ever get outside the WF?

    If you did, you'd realize there are TONS of better solutions out there.

    Most big launches (7 figure +) all run on other platforms and they do just fine.

    Right now all my products are selling through other platforms - (samcart, stripe, authorize.net, 2checkout) and I don't miss paypal one bit.

    There's no shame in offering paypal as a payment option..

    but having your business solely depend on paypal is a terrible decision. As they have a history of freezing accounts with no notice.

    I've run paypal business accounts that processed millions of dollars a year, had a long history with them in good standing, Had my own rep who worked closely with me and had an extremely low refund rate.

    But still.. all it takes is one complaint to set it off and they can limit your account and freeze any money you have there.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    It will be interesting to see how this works out. Keep us posted on progress
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  • Braintree and Stripe are working well for me. I also use Paypal. It's best to diversify your merchant accounts. They are a dime a dozen. If you spread your funds to multiple accounts then you don't take a huge hit when an account gets frozen. I've seen several businesses go out of business because of a frozen merchant account.
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  • Profile picture of the author Monkmoney
    I dont understand the trend that was set to allow refunds on digital products and services. Places like xbox google marketplace and ios dont allow it after certain time, you cant buy a cd and open it and refund it..



    Anyways, isnt a solution to having paypal..just withdrsw money from paypal and keep minimum.balance?
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    • Profile picture of the author heavysm
      Originally Posted by Monkmoney View Post

      Anyways, isnt a solution to having paypal..just withdrsw money from paypal and keep minimum.balance?
      People thought that was a solution until refunds put their account into negative figures.

      Paypal does not allow an account to stay negative, and so the account gets shut down if there is no correction to offset the balance. Often enough during that negative period a limitation is placed on the account to "resolve" the disputed transaction.

      If a disputed transaction favors the buyer and there is no money to pull from (you empty your bank accounts or remove funding from your verified accounts) your account is then either limited (if it wasn't before) or shut down.

      The worst case scenario, of course, is to have a lot of money in your account and have it frozen as the horror stories went in previous years.

      But, as it has been pointed out, having solid products and strong customer service tends to help one avoid these problems.
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  • Profile picture of the author QueenMelanie
    yeah PP is a bit*h , but most people only trust paypal.. Skrill though seems to be coming more trusted and recognised at the moment
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    • Profile picture of the author rally2win
      Yeah - you can go NoPP biz mod but then there are quite a few people in the USA that would be hogtied by Solid Trust Pay not operating here. It is also understood that there are also 7 states that still cannot work with Payza - ND, AR, VA, KS, WA, CT, and TX). And you do not want to exclude any states if you know what's good for you.
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  • Profile picture of the author ronyoung
    Banned
    get a merchant accout with you bank very easy to do and its worth the money
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  • Profile picture of the author seobro
    In reply to
    I know a guy, who knew a guy, and he said...
    He is making over $5,000 per month and that is over $60,000 per year.

    Pay Pal was always a pain. They would order him to refund people and the scam artists would get the reports for free and he would get zero. Well, he uses western union now. If people want to get the reports they have to pay. Yeah, the FREE RIDE is over!
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  • Profile picture of the author ACandi
    Originally Posted by Dasilva Marketing View Post

    Yes as the title reads I am going to be selling my products away from PP to keep the serial refunders away and for other reasons.
    Hi

    'Serial Refunders' ? If I'm not mistaken PP currently advise that if someone wants a refund they should first contact the vendor as part of their resolution process.

    If after contacting the vendor the buyer is still not satisfied, PP also gives the vendor a chance to 'make good' or negotiate a settlement.

    Its only after going through that process PP gives the refund.

    Maybe I'm missing something here, but are you offering value for money?

    LB.
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  • Profile picture of the author paulie888
    Refunds are something you have to accept no matter what platform you're using, it's just the nature of this business.

    If you start designating an "absolutely no refund" type of policy on your products, be prepared to see your conversion rates fall drastically.

    With that said, it would be prudent not to have all your eggs in one basket, and use several payment processors so you're not completely at the mercy of Paypal. I have found that their customer service and responsiveness has improved a lot over the years, and you can typically get many issues resolved and cleared just by calling them up on the phone.
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  • checks and bank transfer....i am not after people that will only deal with p.p. and there's no quick sell needed. Much better. I'd hate to think someone could charge back after 5 1/2 months.
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  • Profile picture of the author EPoltrack77
    paypal takes 30 cents for every dollar I make. I still use them but I use my own merchant provider as well. I make a lot more money paying only a few cents compared to 30 cents that paypal takes.

    Paypal is a very high cost merchant provider for people and business that don't want to go through the process of getting your own shopping cart. In return you pay high fees...
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  • Profile picture of the author Synnuh
    30% Damn, I need to invest in PayPal.

    They get me for 2.5-5% -- how are you paying 30%?
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    • Profile picture of the author EPoltrack77
      Its what they do! Every dollar I make I only get 70 cents of that dollar when going through paypal
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Originally Posted by EPoltrack77 View Post

        Its what they do! Every dollar I make I only get 70 cents of that dollar when going through paypal
        Then YOU"RE doing something wrong.

        Paypal has a number of different account types, offering different services, and I'll be the first to admit that I am probably not intimately familiar with all of them. However... I don't know of any service they provide that involves a 30% transaction processing fee.

        You mentioned a "shopping cart" in a previous post. Is Paypal hosting your cart? I ask because at least one of their "cart" solutions provides for them to maintain your inventory balances (a service you have no need of if your products are digital). Is it possible that you are paying for more than just payment processing services?
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  • Profile picture of the author unifiedac
    I have a little experience using Authorize.net. As an Authorize.net merchant, you accept credit card payments directly from your site. I remember having to conduct an annual security audit on the site and I believe you have to purchase SSL for your hosting. The fees are higher than PayPal and you also pay a monthly subscription whether you sell or not. I think there is a $25 fee for chargebacks. =\
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  • Profile picture of the author TJShipnite
    Paypal is good for the buyer due to their very lenient refund policy. It is equally not good for the seller due to the very same reason. I know a handful of seller's who have used PP in the past, but because of their fairly recent changes to their affiliate program policy, the risk of having your account shut down due to a variety of reasons, is quite high.

    To answer the second part of your question, I know authorize is becoming more and more popular with various sellers. Having your own merchant account is, in my opinion, the way of the future.
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Mazza
    As a vendor can you sign up to JVzoo and link it to authorize.net and then still pay affiliates?
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