PayPal Problems - Fraud? | Warrior Forum - The #1 Digital Marketing Forum & Marketplace

14 years ago

Willy - I feel your pain, man. I hate paypal and just expressed my opinions as such at this post.

I don't have a solution to beat Paypal. Their gooey, slobbering lovefest with scam buyers always seems to win out over legit sellers. All I can say is tell everyone you know about your problems with Paypal and let Paypal know that you are telling everyone. Post your gripes on paypalsucks.com and screw-paypal.com. I don't think it will get your cash back but maybe someone else will read it and realize that PAYPAL SUCKS!

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Kyrool

14 years ago

Why not give Paypal a call and explain your situation. Assure them that you can provide proof that the sites were yours (e.g. whois, other documentation, etc). I'm sure they will review it and if they find that you were the rightful owner then and that you were conned, they will return your money back.

I won't say that it'll turn out to be a guaranteed success, but I've seen similar cases to yours and some of them managed to get their money back.

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infohog

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Kyrool

Why not give Paypal a call and explain your situation. Assure them that you can provide proof that the sites were yours (e.g. whois, other documentation, etc). I'm sure they will review it and if they find that you were the rightful owner then and that you were conned, they will return your money back.

I won't say that it'll turn out to be a guaranteed success, but I've seen similar cases to yours and some of them managed to get their money back.

Kyrool - I am an optimist by birth but my dealings ($1400 - stolen!) with Paypal by phone, by letter, by email, etc... has diminished that optimism. If Willyboy gets his money back or his websites returned I will publicly apologize for my harsh words about Paypal AND will streak nude down Detroit's Woodward Avenue.

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willyboy104

14 years ago

Thanks guys. I cannot call them as it would be far too expensive however I did e-mail them but no such luck. They basically said nothing useful, I may try again and as Kyrool said add all the evidence and proof that I can possibly find although this was all added when the case was open.

Stupid Paypal

Funny - Infohog, that definitely motivates me. I would love to see someone streak down a street (I am not gay at all, just would be hilarious) ^^

Seems like I may not be in any luck though considering your past experiences. Worth a try though I guess.

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Richard Tunnah 14 years ago

Paypal doesn't support electronic good sales (including domains and/or websites) so I'm afraid they'll not help you. You have no way of getting the sites back. Put it down to experience and next time use escrow.com who sit in the middle and mediate such sales.

Rich
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Tyrus Antas

14 years ago

Contact your domains registrar and explain the situation. Do you know the identity of the people you sold the sites to?

Tyrus

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Jeremy Kelsall 14 years ago

Contact whoever is currently hosting the sites and let them know that someone stole your property. Show them the original sale and chargeback and you should be all set.
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derekwong28

14 years ago

The chargeback was not made against you but against PayPal. There is nothing that PayPal could have done as the money was pulled out of their merchant account. Therefore they had to recoup the money lost from you. The buyer acted completely outside PayPal's TOS in raising the chargeback through his bank.

The only thing you can do is to insist that PayPal makes an appeal against this chargeback but the success rate is very low and it could take many months before the money is returned.

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rosetrees 14 years ago

Willyboy - I see you are in the UK. Is the buyer in the UK too? If so, you might be able to bring a claim against him/her in the Small Claims Court. You can find all the forms online.

If you decide to do that - let the buyer know first that you are going to bring a claim - that might make him/her pay up. If it doesn't, it costs little to bring a claim and almost all are settled out of court. Just receiving the papers makes most people pay up pronto.
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willyboy104

14 years ago

Thanks guys for all the help and information.

I know the guys address and email that he has put in to his paypal account and I could get other information of WHOIS.

The guy has the domains at godaddy where I transfered them to him, would Godaddy really act on my behalf if I was to E-mail them and explain the issue?

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rosetrees 14 years ago

I see we cross posted there!

Yes - GoDaddy might help you. A couple of months ago I found an article of mine reproduced without the acknowledgement.

GoDaddy took the site down so fast you wouldn't believe - the owner contacted me and we resolved the issue (yes - I had tried to contact the owner first)

Edit: You have to lodge your complaint using the correct words - but GoDaddy will tell you when you get it wrong and tell you what you need to say
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Biggy Fat

14 years ago

If the amount is $500 or more, you should have went Escrow all day. Between $100-$499 would cut into your profits if you go the Escrow route but it'd still be safe. Less than $100? Don't worry about it.

Edit: I am sorry to say but GoDaddy will completely blow you off as far as the domains. I sold two really good domains to someone at DP then he filed a dispute and got his money back along WITH the domains. GoDaddy and PayPal did absolutely NOTHING about the issue and they hid behind their dumbass TOS. Though GoDaddy says crap like "if you believe these domains were transferred in error let us know in 15 days". What a load of BS.

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la dominatrix

14 years ago

Buy yourself a phone card if phoning Paypal is too expensive. I live in Malaga in make international phone calls all the time at 2 cetns a minute, it is a pain dialing in about fifteen numbers before making the phone call but it is cheap, and I know I pay only five euros for the card.

La dominatrix

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kentaiwan98

14 years ago

Yes, a friend sold his site. He went through Escrow services. The mere fact of using Escrow should help to sort out the fraud from the genuine.

Kenneth

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willyboy104

14 years ago

Thanks everyone again. The person I believe lives in the USA so what rosetrees recommended probably wont work but thank you.

I shall E-mail godaddy although some of you seem apprehensive to say the least about what Godaddy may do, its worth a try.

It was much more than $500 over double this, perhaps next time I will go with Escrow now I have had a couple of bad experiences with Paypal maybe its time to move on for the bigger sales.

What sort of charges do Escrow have on selling? I believe paypal is 2.5%...

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Tyrus Antas 14 years ago

Originally Posted by willyboy104

What sort of charges do Escrow have on selling? I believe paypal is 2.5%...

https://www.escrow.com/support/calculator.asp

Tyrus
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- Kay King 14 years ago
  
  I have had a couple of bad experiences with Paypal maybe its time to move on for the bigger sales.
  
  You sold to a scammer - it's not paypal's fault. Don't be too cheap to use an escrow service that will provide protection from buyers like this.
  
  kay
  
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Kirk Ward

14 years ago

Originally Posted by willyboy104

Thanks everyone again. The person I believe lives in the USA so what rosetrees recommended probably wont work but thank you.

I shall E-mail godaddy although some of you seem apprehensive to say the least about what Godaddy may do, its worth a try.

It was much more than $500 over double this, perhaps next time I will go with Escrow now I have had a couple of bad experiences with Paypal maybe its time to move on for the bigger sales.

What sort of charges do Escrow have on selling? I believe paypal is 2.5%...

Depending on where the twit lives, if they have failed to return your property (the domain registration) after receiving the money back, you may be able to report them for fraud, which could be a criminal matter. Different jurisdictions have different descriptions ... it could be something as serious as "theft by taking" or something like "conversion."

Consider contacting your local police (Bobbies?) and asking them how to go about filing an international criminal charge.

Kirk

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Martin Luxton 14 years ago

I'm with Garrie and Kirk.

If it went down as you said fraud has been committed.

Have you thought about contacting Interpol?

They are very hot on internet scams. The guy probably thought it would be too much hassle for you to try and come after him in the States. Why settle for your sites back when you could put him behind bars as well?

Contact Interpol

Martin
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George Wright

14 years ago

Have a third party contact the person who stole your Domain Names. Make him an offer he can't refuse for the names. After the domains are transferred have the third party do a chargeback. If all of your paperwork is in order you could probably justify your actions.

Just an evil thought preCoffee. Maybe I'll come back and delete this after the Folgers kicks in.

George Wright

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genietoast 14 years ago

Oh, man. That's horrible. The guy probably took advantage of the fact you were overseas, too.

It is possible for you to keep the evidence and claim this as a business loss for tax purposes?

I agree with everyone else. Switch to an escrow service who will act as the middle man between you and the buyer. Escrow protects both the buyer and the seller. That's the best payment protection for people who do freelance work.
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timpears

14 years ago

I have had this done to me when I sold sites on eBay. Fortunately it was just for a couple of hundred or so. You don't stand much of a chance with this. It just sucks that the person gets to keep the site and gets their money back too.

When you are dealing with real money, or even if it is just a couple of hundred or so, I would choose escrow every time. Spell it out in the offer and make the buyer pay at least half, if not the whole amount. If you are selling a site for more than a grand, I don't think it is unfair to state that the buyer must pay half of the escrow fees. Just refer to it as the handling fee. Kind of like shipping and handling. People that want the site will not mind and the scamers, well who cares about them?

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talfighel

14 years ago

Wow, I am so glad that you posted this here because I was thinking about selling one of my websites through PayPal but now I don't it would be a good idea.

I can feel your pain a lot.

I would call PayPal and tell them about this situation. I had an issue a while back and calling them is the best way to go.

I really hope that you can get this resolved. Do you care to share with us how much you sold the site for?

Tal

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George Wright

14 years ago

Here is another solution for future reference.

I've done this although not to "protect myself" it just happens a lot when I sell a URL.

I have offered to keep the domain name under my control and just point the dns to the hosting for the client. Eventually the buyer gets around to asking for control of the URL so I push it to their registrar account.

Now here is the twist. INSIST on keeping control of the name until the refund period is over. Make it part of the written contract. "Seller keeps control of the URL for six months + one week." (past the charge back period) "Seller will point the URL to Buyer's website."

Everything works well for all and at the end of the 6+ months the name is transferred.

George Wright

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BrainDance

14 years ago

Have to chime in here and say, you won't win anything. Paypal offers absolutely no protection for digital transactions at all. Not that this helps now, but in the past when selling domains/domain names to people I don't know I used escrow.com or another online site (NOT godaddy or sitepoint or a domain forum) dedicated to domain and site selling, they manage it all.
Paypal has changed its policies dramatically lately regarding ecommerce, digital goods and transactions, I totally left them after 8yrs. Also note they are not under any obligation to do anything at all being they are not regulated. They can close your account, keep funds and pretty much do anything they please and at their discretion.
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Peter Adamson

14 years ago

I have been involved in a domain dispute before between UK and US. Not my domain. A lot more money was at stake. Like a whole business with 25 employees. If the cost is warranted you can get a solicitor to contact the registrar. They cannot hide behind their TOS where the law is concerned. If the domains legitimately belong to someone other than the registrant, and this can be proven they will return the domains rather than go to court.

But as I say, this is only valid if the value of the transaction warrants the fees. I suspect registrars are like banks and corporations. You can put your case together with as much knowledge as you like, but until it comes in the post recorded delivery on solicitor's letterhead, your case stays with paper pushers. As soon as they get a letter from a legal professional, it is beyond their remit and gets escalated. Sad but true.

If solicitors' fees are not warranted, I would definitely contact the registrar using snail mail, recorded delivery and make sure you know your legal ground and demonstrate this.

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GarrieWilson

14 years ago

In the future, mail a backup on CD so you have proof of delivery.

For now, file a DMCA take down notice with GoDaddy and his host. Then email him letting him know that the site will be taken down each time he puts it up until he pays or trransfers it back to you.

If you realy want to piss him off and scare him:

1.) File a small claims suit and when he gets notice, he might scramble.
2.) Call his local police/sheriff and file theft charges.

Garrie

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imran.qureshi

14 years ago

You can contact the domain registrar and domain hosting company. Show them the proof from paypal that the chargeback took place. I am sure they will take some strict action...

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TheRichJerksNet

14 years ago

As a developer and someone that has built and sold 10,000's of websites/scripts I can tell you this...

1. Paypal has no choice but to refund the money because the credit card company/bank does have the final say as the government granted them the last say. All paypal can do is fight for you and provide the information you provided them.

2. There are several ways to protect what is yours.. First you encrypt the sites and add a call back function in the script to track it's use. If your license agreement is broken then you click a link that will disable the entire site from use. This is not illegal, this is done to protect your copyrighted works. If you provided no license agreement then that is a huge mistake on your part. 2nd require payment by mass paypal payment only, a credit card can not be used to make a mass payment and as such no charge back can be made.

3. I do not know why people think paypal will always take your money, this is not true.. When dealing with credit cards though this is out of paypal's control, thus why you use mass paypal payments because if someone files a claim using mass paypal payment then you do not need to deal with any bank, you deal with paypal and prove your case.

4. I disagree about using an escrow service, do the above and you will be fine...

James

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sbucciarel

Banned 14 years ago

If you refunded someone for a product, that product should be returned to you. Get all your documentation together and contact their hosting company with a take-down notice ... saying they did not pay for the domain and website, so are using your intellectual property fraudulently. Don't know if it will work, but worth a try. Then go to the registrar and do the same thing to see if you can get your domain back.

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simonLC

14 years ago

RipOffReport.com - At a minimum, make a post so others are not scammed by him.

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TheRichJerksNet

14 years ago

Originally Posted by simonLC

RipOffReport.com - At a minimum, make a post so others are not scammed by him.

Simon,
It is a well known fact that ripoffreport.com is run by someone that is questionable. The post on that site are so false that it is sick. I sure hope you do not base your business decisisons on a website that anybody can post anything to without proof.

James

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simonLC

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

Simon,
It is a well known fact that ripoffreport.com is run by someone that is questionable. The post on that site are so false that it is sick. I sure hope you do not base your business decisisons on a website that anybody can post anything to without proof.

James

James,

I would agree the site is questionable; but it often ranks well for personal names.

And I wasn't referring to the way in which I do my own due diligence, but thanks for your concern.

Simon.

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Damien Roche

14 years ago

Use escrow.com for larger transactions. PAYPAL SUCKS as previously stated.

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TheRichJerksNet

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Damien Roche

Use escrow.com for larger transactions. PAYPAL SUCKS as previously stated.

Why involve another party into your business when infact all you need to do is request payment by mass paypal payment. I have built $20,000 sites through paypal using Mass Payment and never had a worry. They can NOT chargeback using mass paypal because they can not use a credit card. Any client that does not want to pay you using mass paypal payment system then maybe they plan to rip you off to begin with.

No cops to call
No hosting companies to deal with
No Emails to send
No third parties

Fact is it is a virtual product and that is not covered under paypal, thus force them to pay using mass paypal and you have nothing to worry about.

James

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CmdrStidd

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

Why involve another party into your business when infact all you need to do is request payment by mass paypal payment. I have built $20,000 sites through paypal using Mass Payment and never had a worry. They can NOT chargeback using mass paypal because they can not use a credit card. Any client that does not want to pay you using mass paypal payment system then maybe they plan to rip you off to begin with.

No cops to call
No hosting companies to deal with
No Emails to send
No third parties

Fact is it is a virtual product and that is not covered under paypal, thus force them to pay using mass paypal and you have nothing to worry about.

James

You have everything to worry about because as noted earlier, Paypal is not regulated!! I have a brick and mortar client that just had Paypal steal over $15,000 from his account and he did this mass paypal payment! Paypal came in and took the money without so much as a "kiss off, buddy". It almost bankrupted my client which would not have been good for me.

Likewise, I had a fraud take place on my Paypal account where a rather large sum was deposited and then within 24 hours it was siphoned off with a mess of small charges against the account. Then the deposit is shown to be a fraud and now that is removed from my account putting it into the red. The first I knew of it was when I get an email telling me that I owed paypal and to go online and correct the overdraft. I log in and sure enough, I am in the hole by almost $20,000 and I never made any of the charges nor did I sell anything for $20,000. Believe me, I would have known if I did that (boy would I have known, may not remember the day after from all the partying but I would have remembered that sale :-D)

I started the dispute process. Because I could not prove that I was not a part of the scam to begin with and since I could not prove that I did not make any of those purchases, Paypal is saying that I owe them the $20,000. I told them they would get it when pigs fly and I start sh**ting gold bricks and I sent them a letter that states that I recinded their rights to take anything from my checking account and any attempts to do so were going to be looked at as grand theft and I would prosecute. I had a copy sent to a lawyer friend of mine as well.

Paypal is not as innocent as you might think. I have since switched to alertpay and I am getting excellent service from them. I have no complaints whatsoever about them.

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TheRichJerksNet

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CmdrStidd

You have everything to worry about because as noted earlier, Paypal is not regulated!! I have a brick and mortar client that just had Paypal steal over $15,000 from his account and he did this mass paypal payment! Paypal came in and took the money without so much as a "kiss off, buddy". It almost bankrupted my client which would not have been good for me.

Likewise, I had a fraud take place on my Paypal account where a rather large sum was deposited and then within 24 hours it was siphoned off with a mess of small charges against the account. Then the deposit is shown to be a fraud and now that is removed from my account putting it into the red. The first I knew of it was when I get an email telling me that I owed paypal and to go online and correct the overdraft. I log in and sure enough, I am in the hole by almost $20,000 and I never made any of the charges nor did I sell anything for $20,000. Believe me, I would have known if I did that (boy would I have known, may not remember the day after from all the partying but I would have remembered that sale :-D)

I started the dispute process. Because I could not prove that I was not a part of the scam to begin with and since I could not prove that I did not make any of those purchases, Paypal is saying that I owe them the $20,000. I told them they would get it when pigs fly and I start sh**ting gold bricks and I sent them a letter that states that I recinded their rights to take anything from my checking account and any attempts to do so were going to be looked at as grand theft and I would prosecute. I had a copy sent to a lawyer friend of mine as well.

Paypal is not as innocent as you might think. I have since switched to alertpay and I am getting excellent service from them. I have no complaints whatsoever about them.

But I think what you are talking about and what the OP is talking about is 2 different things. OP is talking about selling a website.

As a developer I have a few choices here when I sell a site. Add a license to it and encrypt it with call backs. Also to protect myself I can request the client pays by mass paypal or western union, this way I know a chargeback can not happen.

A Mass paypal payment is done by the client to my account, I am charged no fees to get the money because the client is charged for using mass payment.

I have no idea what happened in your case and honestly your reply confused me as you say you client did a mass pay but yet it almost made him bankrupt... I do not understand this. You make a mass payment you are asked to confirm.

James

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CmdrStidd

14 years ago

Originally Posted by TheRichJerksNet

But I think what you are talking about and what the OP is talking about is 2 different things. OP is talking about selling a website.

As a developer I have a few choices here when I sell a site. Add a license to it and encrypt it with call backs. Also to protect myself I can request the client pays by mass paypal or western union, this way I know a chargeback can not happen.

A Mass paypal payment is done by the client to my account, I am charged no fees to get the money because the client is charged for using mass payment.

I have no idea what happened in your case and honestly your reply confused me as you say you client did a mass pay but yet it almost made him bankrupt... I do not understand this. You make a mass payment you are asked to confirm.

James

My client requested to be paid in a paypal mass payment. Payment was received and he shipped the product that was ordered. 2 days later the buyer made some sort of complaint and Paypal removed the funds from my client's account and it left him with just pennies in his bank account. He did not have the funds to pay for product to replace what was sold and he has yet to get that product back. Paypal keeps sending him the same email with a different person's name at the top. All it says in a nutshell is "bend over and we don't use vaseline!!"

I have stopped using Paypal at all because of these situations. From now on it is alertpay or it is directly through a merchant account that is regulated so I can take it to the next level and complain about wrongful actions.

I hope this clears up the confusion for you.

Dana

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derekwong28

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CmdrStidd

My client requested to be paid in a paypal mass payment. Payment was received and he shipped the product that was ordered. 2 days later the buyer made some sort of complaint and Paypal removed the funds from my client's account and it left him with just pennies in his bank account. He did not have the funds to pay for product to replace what was sold and he has yet to get that product back. Paypal keeps sending him the same email with a different person's name at the top. All it says in a nutshell is "bend over and we don't use vaseline!!"

I have stopped using Paypal at all because of these situations. From now on it is alertpay or it is directly through a merchant account that is regulated so I can take it to the next level and complain about wrongful actions.

I hope this clears up the confusion for you.

Dana

Because mass payments must be made by funds already available in the buyer's account, no chargeback can be made because a credit card is not used to fund the payment.

However, the normal procedure for PayPal claims and disputes still apply. Having said that, I am not sure whether all customers would be willing to use mass payment given that they have to pay an extra charge.

If you use your own merchant aocount, you would still have got the chargeback. However, you will not need to go through PayPal to argue your case directly with the buyer's bank.

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CmdrStidd

14 years ago

Originally Posted by derekwong28

Because mass payments must be made by funds already available in the buyer's account, no chargeback can be made because a credit card is not used to fund the payment.

However, the normal procedure for PayPal claims and disputes still apply. Having said that, I am not sure whether all customers would be willing to use mass payment given that they have to pay an extra charge.

If you use your own merchant aocount, you would still have got the chargeback. However, you will not need to go through PayPal to argue your case directly with the buyer's bank.

For the true chargeback, yes, using my own merchant account would not have stopped that, but it would have stopped the $20,000 fraudulent deposit and the subsequent "minor" charges that ate up all of the fraudulent deposit leaving me holding the bag. That is why I am saying that for me it is either alertpay until they screw me over, which so far they have not, or my own merchant account.

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TheRichJerksNet

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CmdrStidd

My client requested to be paid in a paypal mass payment. Payment was received and he shipped the product that was ordered. 2 days later the buyer made some sort of complaint and Paypal removed the funds from my client's account and it left him with just pennies in his bank account. He did not have the funds to pay for product to replace what was sold and he has yet to get that product back. Paypal keeps sending him the same email with a different person's name at the top. All it says in a nutshell is "bend over and we don't use vaseline!!"

I have stopped using Paypal at all because of these situations. From now on it is alertpay or it is directly through a merchant account that is regulated so I can take it to the next level and complain about wrongful actions.

I hope this clears up the confusion for you.

Dana

Ok thanks that clears that up ...lol Thing is we are talking about a virtual product here, paypal is not going to just remove the funds.

I understand what you are saying now and yes that is a bunch of crap.. I do not blame you one bit for moving processors.

James

Thanks

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Styleearn.com

14 years ago

You have nothing to do except make a call to paypal and explain ur situation , but keep ur fingers crossed thought.
Now from now take care while selling digital goods with paypal, use shipping method to send codes or password,and sell the files via zip , so you can track the progress and help the seller to win the disputes.

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Nutrifitness

14 years ago

Originally Posted by willyboy104

Hello.

A warning to everyone: Secure your Paypal accounts against Chargebacks because 99% of the time the buyer will win.[/I]

how do you do that?

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CmdrStidd

14 years ago

Originally Posted by Nutrifitness

how do you do that?

You can't. That is why no one has answered your question that you have kept posting. If you could do this then you would not be seeing this or the millions of other posts and sites devoted to such messages as PaypalSucks.com and the alike.

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Nutrifitness

14 years ago

Originally Posted by CmdrStidd

You can't. That is why no one has answered your question that you have kept posting. If you could do this then you would not be seeing this or the millions of other posts and sites devoted to such messages as PaypalSucks.com and the alike.

I did not realize I kept posting I was having problems posting ...geez..well thanks for answering anyway

Thanks
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CmdrStidd 14 years ago

Originally Posted by Nutrifitness

I did not realize I kept posting I was having problems posting ...geez..well thanks for answering anyway

That is not a problem. Also, I did not intend any meanness by what I said, it was only to explain why your posts were going unanswered. Also, if you keep having problems posting, you might want to let the admins know as there might be something wrong with your account.
- Thanks
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Nutrifitness

14 years ago

seems to be ok now...thank you. I was getting wait 20-30 secs prior to posting message..but we're good now

Thanks

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