How viable is selling a WSO after January 1st 2015?

74 replies
Earlier this month I was alerted to the new European Union VAT regulations, which come into effect on January 1st. This has already cropped up in a thread or two on this forum but for those for whom this is all new there is an excellent online article at http://onemanbandaccounting.co.uk/eu-vat-changes-2015/

Suffice it to say that most of us will be breaking the law come January 1st as many of the popular WSO payment processing options - principally JVZoo, Warrior Plus and the new Warrior Payments will not, in their present state, be legally compliant particularly as you can't apply different sales taxes to your product price depending on the location of your buyer. Zaxaa seems to have nailed this in their latest update.

One of the main issues seems to be around the requirement to keep 2 pieces of non-contradictory evidence of the buyer's location. With PayPal you don't get much more than a buyer's email address. JVZoo offers you a buyer's IP address in their dashboard (+1 to them but not enough) but how the hell are you supposed to administer all this plus keep the evidence for 10 years?

I was going to revamp and expand my PLR business next year but I now plan to put that on hold - local marketing is looking attractive now but product creation is my love. Come Jan 1st I will be removing all my products from JVZoo until I can find a workable solution to this whole mess. I would be interested to hear how WSO sellers hope to comply using JVZoo or Warrior Plus for payment processing?

I believe that sellers using ClickBank do comply with the new EU rules as when you sell a product through them they become, in effect, the product owner and take responsibility for the collection and payment of the VAT. Selling through marketplaces such as Amazon Kindle, Envato, Google Play and iTunes also appears to be a safe bet but don't take my word for it and do check their terms.
#1st #2015 #eu vat #january #jvzoo #sales tax #selling #viable #warrior plus #wso
  • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
    Envato is NOT safe. Lots of long time sellers are currently jumping ship due to Envato's inability and unwillingness to answer their concerns and provide them with an adequate way to fulfill their new requirements as digital sellers.
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    • Profile picture of the author pixelware
      Alexandre, this Envato post suggests otherwise:

      Preparing for EU VAT Changes in Early 2015 - Market Blog
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
        Originally Posted by pixelware View Post

        Alexandre, this Envato post suggests otherwise:

        Preparing for EU VAT Changes in Early 2015 - Market Blog
        I believe this is one of the points that had been fueling the current conflict, due to Envato's failure to provide a clear explanation and update to it's community:

        "For EU authors, we'll be managing the EU VAT compliance (i.e. collection, record keeping, invoicing, remittance, and so on) for sales made to non-business buyers through Envato Market."

        Envato only addresses EU authors, while the law requires to be enforced by everyone worldwide. It's good if they an get it together, at this moment, more platforms to sell from is better for everyone.

        Personally, I am reviewing my plans of launching some new products on my own and will probably be sticking with Clickbank for a little while, and focusing more on my coaching services and programs, which by definition are not bound by this law thanks to having hands-on components.

        So back to the question of how viable is selling a WSO... still the same. The question is how many sellers will choose to ignore the new requirements?
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        • Profile picture of the author Steve B
          What's to stop you from creating a simple business structure in the U.S. and operating as an out-of-country owner? Or at the very least, getting a partner in the U.S. to handle your accounts?

          Steve
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          • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
            Originally Posted by Steve B View Post

            What's to stop you from creating a simple business structure in the U.S. and operating as an out-of-country owner? Or at the very least, getting a partner in the U.S. to handle your accounts?

            Steve
            Steve, what is to stop you from doing it... exactly nothing.

            On the other side, what is to stop any of the 28 European country`s taxmen to come knocking on your door?

            Exactly nothing.

            Their rules are clear. You sell to anyone anywhere in Europe, you owe them money, and the punitive damages can be unlimited in certain cases (up to 6 times their "estimated" loss if I recall), which can amount to a lot. And remember, you have 28 different countries to worry about here.

            They have already admitted in their communications that:

            1) Enforcement would be a priority

            2) They will be using bots and crawlers to find and identify digital sellers, and determine their risk level (AKA compliance)

            3) They will be investing lots of resources in their international trade relationships to enlist the aid of foreign governments in prosecution and enforcing any perceived tax evasion.

            At this point, we can only hope they will quickly realize the oversight and consequences of such an application on millions of small businesses operating around the world, or that the burden and costs of enforcement will be too unsustainable in the long term, and will call off their witch hunt. But until then, those are the facts effective January 1st.

            You play it however you like, but personally, I'll be making sure I'm playing by their rules. They're the ones with the guns and the jails.
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            • Profile picture of the author onSubie
              Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

              On the other side, what is to stop any of the 28 European country`s taxmen to come knocking on your door?
              I am Canadian and they do not have jurisdiction.
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              • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
                Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

                On the other side, what is to stop any of the 28 European country`s taxmen to come knocking on your door?

                Exactly nothing.

                Their rules are clear. You sell to anyone anywhere in Europe, you owe them money,
                What is to stop them? Jurisdiction. Good luck trying to get money from a legal entity in the US...some state courts have already deemed it unconstitutional.

                Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

                Envato only addresses EU authors, while the law requires to be enforced by everyone worldwide.
                A EU law doesn't have jurisdiction of non EU member citizens.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
                  Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

                  What is to stop them? Jurisdiction. Good luck trying to get money from a legal entity in the US...some state courts have already deemed it unconstitutional.

                  A EU law doesn't have jurisdiction of non EU member citizens.
                  Reference?
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            • Profile picture of the author Steve B
              Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

              You play it however you like, but personally, I'll be making sure I'm playing by their rules. They're the ones with the guns and the jails.

              Alexandre,

              I think you're taking my question the wrong way. I am not advocating breaking any laws and I am not suggesting that you do anything underhanded. I also am not saying that I understand the rules of foreign (non-US) business taxation.

              I am simply asking if you have considered doing business under a different jurisdiction? Maybe it won't work for you - I don't know.

              What I do know is that owners of businesses in the U.S. live in many different countries - and they do business legally. Period.

              Steve
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
    As I mentioned above... they have made clear their intent of working with foreign governments to enlist their help. We are talking about the entire European Union, not a single country.

    If you trust your government to have your back and decide to do nothing about it, that is your decision. From this point on we're only waiting to see where the chips will fall.

    Oh, and by the way, even if it takes them 10 years to get you with the help of your own government... by the time they get to you, if you haven't been compliant and keeping track of their required information during those 10 years... you're still going to have to pay.

    Personally, I won't be holding my breath and pray that big brother's got my back. They will always have their own agenda, which may or may not be in my best interest in the long term.

    Honestly, it's a gamble that seems to me way much more trouble than the potential hassle of adapting my business model. The less is left outside of my control and in other people's hands, the better I sleep at night.
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    • Profile picture of the author onSubie
      Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

      As I mentioned above... they have made clear their intent of working with foreign governments to enlist their help. We are talking about the entire European Union, not a single country.
      You know, laws in one country do not apply to other countries.

      You can't enforce a law in Canada that does not exist.

      Canada would have to pass tax legislation that matches the EU legislation.

      That isn't going to happen.

      As a previous poster aid, these laws have already been ruled unconstitutional in the U.S.

      Under what law, Canadian or International, would they get in front of a court with here?

      What possible charges could be brought in Canada or the U.S.?

      You should see some of the draconian laws in China. Are you worried about getting sued by them?

      Why don't EU marketers use U.S. law as their guide under your premise that laws in one country apply to any other country?

      Your avatar says you are in Canada so I'm surprised you don't know how Canadian laws work.
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  • Profile picture of the author littledan
    The EU is a joke and as soon as the UK leave the better. The best option is to totally ignore any verbal diarrhea coming from those EU morons. Anyone who wants to stay in the EU obviously need their head testing.
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

      As I mentioned above... they have made clear their intent of working with foreign governments to enlist their help. We are talking about the entire European Union, not a single country.

      If you trust your government to have your back and decide to do nothing about it, that is your decision. From this point on we're only waiting to see where the chips will fall.

      Oh, and by the way, even if it takes them 10 years to get you with the help of your own government... by the time they get to you, if you haven't been compliant and keeping track of their required information during those 10 years... you're still going to have to pay.

      Personally, I won't be holding my breath and pray that big brother's got my back. They will always have their own agenda, which may or may not be in my best interest in the long term.

      Honestly, it's a gamble that seems to me way much more trouble than the potential hassle of adapting my business model. The less is left outside of my control and in other people's hands, the better I sleep at night.
      Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

      Reference?
      You REALLY believe that the EU is going to come into the United States and try to haul people off to jail? I'm sorry but I promise you the government here will prefer to keep my tax money in the country instead of letting someone jail me over a very small percentage of overall sales.

      Not to mention... it has been declared unconstitutional in many state governments here in the US.

      Source: Internet Tax Freedom Act, 47 U.S.C. § 151

      I'm not worried about a thing.... The EU can get an ASCII middle finger for 10 years while I keep no data.
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
    Yes, for now, their stance is clear. They'll keep your and your money inside because it's best for them.

    But a lot can change in 10 years. A lot has changed in the past 10 years. The government does a lot now that it couldn't or wouldn't do 10 years ago.

    Let's say, I don't know, there is another "situation" in the middle-east.

    Let's say Uncle Sam asks his buddies from the Old World for some backup.

    Let's say those guys aren't too happy they got the Ascii finger for the past 10 years...

    Let's say they all sit around a table to try and smooth over a few misunderstandings...

    Or more close to home and realistically, since a lot of US citizens buy online from other countries... including digital good and services, which are not being taxed... What if it suddenly got into their head that the EU had something worth looking into, and they decided to move ahead with their own version of it, integrating not only 28 countries like the EU does, but 51 states? Maybe even Canada and Mexico as part of some Free Trade agreement? Do you think it would be in their interest then to work out an agreement with the EU to help a brother out?

    Are you still willing to put your entire business, your finances, and your freedom, on the line, hoping that your government will always have your back?

    Or would you rather be a bit creative now, roll-up your sleeve, maybe drop a few G's into adapting your business, and move on knowing that no matter what happens, your bases are covered?
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    • Profile picture of the author iAmNameLess
      Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

      Yes, for now, their stance is clear. They'll keep your and your money inside because it's best for them.

      But a lot can change in 10 years. A lot has changed in the past 10 years. The government does a lot now that it couldn't or wouldn't do 10 years ago.

      Let's say, I don't know, there is another "situation" in the middle-east.

      Let's say Uncle Sam asks his buddies from the Old World for some backup.

      Let's say those guys aren't too happy they got the Ascii finger for the past 10 years...

      Let's say they all sit around a table to try and smooth over a few misunderstandings...

      Or more close to home and realistically, since a lot of people worldwide buys from the US... including digital good and services, which are not being taxed online... What if it suddenly got into their head that the EU had something worth looking into, and they decided to move ahead with their own version of it, integrating not only 28 countries like the EU does, but 51 states? Do you think it would be in their interest then to work out an agreement with the EU to help a brother out?

      Are you still willing to put your entire business, your finances, and your freedom, on the line, hoping that your government will always have your back?

      Or would you rather be a bit creative now, roll-up your sleeve, maybe drop a few G's into adapting your business, and move on knowing that no matter what happens, your bases are covered?
      I understand your concerns. Please don't take my comments the wrong way, because you are making valid points. I just don't care about it. It sounds a bit brash but I just seriously doubt the EU will be able to force taxes on US citizens, whose very existence as a country came from a war based on taxes and freedoms.

      If I cared about every little thing that may affect me in the future, I would be too worried about how I'm going to survive in the future instead of focusing my time, money, energy on the present that allows me to have a future.

      I have a very good attorney. If something ever were to happen, which I doubt it would since it has been deemed unconstitutional in state courts, I'm willing to do what I can to fight it. If the USA ever has such a law, then it would require PayPal and other processors to adjust and take care of compliance for us or someone else will pop up, which is the beauty of the free market.

      I'm not dismissing your concerns as illegitimate, I just don't see the point in me worrying about such a thing and I feel it would be counter-productive for me to worry about it.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
        I did not take any of your comments the wrong way and can assure you that no feelings were hurt whatsoever at any point of this conversation

        I just wanted to make some points clear, as not being well-informed is not a defense and to do nothing can be extremely bad advice. Each and every one needs to make their own decision based on their situation and beliefs, but the issue itself is very real and should not be dismissed as a triviality. To insinuate so is, in my opinion, very irresponsible.

        I myself am not too concerned as the impracticalities and burden of enforcing such a law, on top of all the unintended consequences, will likely end up in a major modification or repelling of the act entirely. But I believe it's still better to be safe than sorry, especially when the inconvenience dwarfs in comparison of the potential consequences. Others like you may have different views, resources or ways of dealing with this change.


        Originally Posted by iAmNameLess View Post

        I understand your concerns. Please don't take my comments the wrong way, because you are making valid points. I just don't care about it. It sounds a bit brash but I just seriously doubt the EU will be able to force taxes on US citizens, whose very existence as a country came from a war based on taxes and freedoms.

        If I cared about every little thing that may affect me in the future, I would be too worried about how I'm going to survive in the future instead of focusing my time, money, energy on the present that allows me to have a future.

        I have a very good attorney. If something ever were to happen, which I doubt it would since it has been deemed unconstitutional in state courts, I'm willing to do what I can to fight it. If the USA ever has such a law, then it would require PayPal and other processors to adjust and take care of compliance for us or someone else will pop up, which is the beauty of the free market.

        I'm not dismissing your concerns as illegitimate, I just don't see the point in me worrying about such a thing and I feel it would be counter-productive for me to worry about it.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonwebb71
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  • Profile picture of the author Jamie Thompson
    I will not abide by any EU rules whatsoever, and I don't see how they can enforce them anyway even in Europe. Just scare tactics to squeeze more money from people. However, I'm sure they will make an example out of someone.
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    • Profile picture of the author spearce000
      Originally Posted by Jamie Thompson View Post

      I will not abide by any EU rules whatsoever, and I don't see how they can enforce them anyway even in Europe. Just scare tactics to squeeze more money from people. However, I'm sure they will make an example out of someone.
      Just hope that someone isn't you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Rod Cortez
    I'm going to ask my my CPA.

    RoD
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
    I am in Canada, that is correct.

    Assuming I do not know law is a mistake.

    Assuming you are safe from prosecution for a crime because the country you reside in does not acknowledge it as such is also a mistake and there are plenty of precedent to back it up.

    There have been many instances of countries working together and collaborating to enforce laws for crimes committed in other countries. Whether or not your government will recognize such activity as a legitimate crime and agree to prosecute is one thing we can only speculate on, and that is bound to change with international pressure and foreign relations. Such examples have been made very clear over the past few years with cases linked to computer crimes, prostitution, and more a-propos tax evasion, for example.

    Yes, it makes it unlikely that you will be prosecuted especially being that we are all infinitely small fishes in a very big pond. But once again, saying that it's irrelevant is, in my view, irresponsible.

    Also consider the fact that your government may protect you in your own country of origin, as long as that is where you are located. If you end up on one of their lists for failure to comply with the act and get flagged as a tax evasion offender, they are free to pick you up and do whatever they want with you the moment you set foot on european soil.
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    • Profile picture of the author onSubie
      Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

      Assuming you are safe from prosecution for a crime because the country you reside in does not acknowledge it as such is also a mistake and there are plenty of precedent to back it up.
      A single example would suffice....

      ... and I'm not assuming (your knowledge), I am reading your posts.
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonwebb71
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    • Profile picture of the author goneill
      This VAT is the small end of the wedge for Selling on line. What has not been mentioned is that
      in 2016 this EU VAT rule will be applied to mail order goods.

      There used to a rule that second hand goods are not applicable to VAT?, could there be a loophole
      here i.e in that I have purchased the goods originally when there was no VAT due but I am selling them
      secondhand?.

      I am curious in how they are going to enforce this law for non compliance e.g If I lived in China and sold goods
      world wide how would they stop me?. There is only two ways to enforce this rule and that would be via your payment processor or the government closing down your site. Now if your payment processor and hosting is based in China I cannot see how the USA or EU could enforce it unless we have not told that there has been a government worldwide agreement.
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      • Profile picture of the author jasonwebb71
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  • Profile picture of the author ClickBank
    Originally Posted by pixelware View Post

    I believe that sellers using ClickBank do comply with the new EU rules as when you sell a product through them they become, in effect, the product owner and take responsibility for the collection and payment of the VAT. Selling through marketplaces such as Amazon Kindle, Envato, Google Play and iTunes also appears to be a safe bet but don't take my word for it and do check their terms.
    Hi pixelware,

    In another thread (see this link), we did note that we are compliant with the EU VAT regulations as we actively collect and remit VAT from the buyer's country of origin with proper documentation for location, etc. This is part of the value we provide product vendors with our service.

    Thanks,
    The ClickBank Team
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  • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
    JVZoo just added a feature to deal with VAT:

    "With the topic of the new VAT laws going into effect, as always we put our heads down and got to work to give you the best solution. While we could have stopped at just reporting, we took a little time to think about all the different options you as the vendor may want to have. You can see below what is currently live on JVZoo as well as what will be in production before the end of the year.

    Currently included and live:

    Allow a customer to choose to collect VAT for EU or not.

    If YES - the vendor (a)pick what to charge and (b)how to charge
    a) Choose to charge vendor's country (2014 rules) OR charge the buyer's country (2015 rules).
    b) Choose to add VAT to the products price (customer pays) or make the price include the VAT (vendor pays out of their profits)

    We are recording country, ip and vat amount for each transaction which will be available for download with transaction details.

    1) If you are charging the customer, we show them the country for their IP - with the ability for them to change their country to their home country if they are traveling or using a proxy.

    2) Ability for UK vendors to NOT charge UK customers (but will charge other EU countries)

    Not Live Yet, But In Production Before First Of The Year

    3) If VAT is going to be charged, the ability for a customer to declare they are a VAT registered business and that information is recorded with the transaction.

    4) VAT Summary Report - select date range and we will show you total amounts collected for each country

    5) Detailed VAT information on detailed sales export

    6) MOSS Upload Report - if we can find examples of the data format of what MOSS is expecting we will add that as well in the future

    As always, our goal is to make your job as easy as we can. We’ll keep bringing you the features to make that happen so you can keep working on your business!

    Have a great day,
    Your JVZoo Team"
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  • I've only read parts of this thread, but is just wanted to make sure that it is fine still to sell on WarriorPlus, right? Based on what I have read so far, it doesn't seem like too much of a deal. Would I need to start using JVZOO?
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  • Profile picture of the author IMToThePoint
    This thread interested me and so I decided to dig a little deeper. It seems that if you are selling WSO's or providing you are using a third party or payment processor such as warrior plus, jvzoo, paypal etc then it is their responsibility to figure out the VAT to be added and charged to each individual country and not the vendor itself, kind of like what Clickbank is already doing.
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    • Profile picture of the author pxjenkins
      Originally Posted by IMToThePoint View Post

      This thread interested me and so I decided to dig a little deeper. It seems that if you are selling WSO's or providing you are using a third party or payment processor such as warrior plus, jvzoo, paypal etc then it is their responsibility to figure out the VAT to be added and charged to each individual country and not the vendor itself, kind of like what Clickbank is already doing.
      Am not sure this is in fact the case...I use Zaxaa as a payment processor and funnel creation mechanism, and they have recently introduced a country block/divert feature that can re-direct non-UK EU traffic (in my case) to another order form (I'm using FastSpring since they definitely will handle VAT admin and payments - Zaxaa, for example, would not. I'm pretty sure the same goes for PayPal)
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      • Profile picture of the author Kris79
        Originally Posted by pxjenkins View Post

        Am not sure this is in fact the case...I use Zaxaa as a payment processor and funnel creation mechanism, and they have recently introduced a country block/divert feature that can re-direct non-UK EU traffic (in my case) to another order form (I'm using FastSpring since they definitely will handle VAT admin and payments - Zaxaa, for example, would not. I'm pretty sure the same goes for PayPal)
        But Zaxaa is handling EU VAT transactions and is adding VAT tax to those who are from specific UE country.
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        • Profile picture of the author pxjenkins
          Originally Posted by Kris79 View Post

          But Zaxaa is handling EU VAT transactions and is adding VAT tax to those who are from specific UE country.
          Zaxaa can either a) detect the IP of customer and add VAT at appropriate rate (if one is registered and therefore entitled to charge VAT as a vendor), or b) block/re-direct any IP coming from specific countries or the EU as a block (one can de-select specific countries after bull adding). I use the latter approach, re-directing non-UK EU traffic to a VAT-compiant solution (e.g. FastSpring, Clickbank, Udemy etc). In order to be able to justify with 2 pieces of data down the line, I have also added Custom Info request to the order form: "What is your home country or country in which your business is based?"

          Basically, this new law is a nightmare for folk like me who are well below the VAT threshold, but who cannot count on not having an inquiry in the future to prove that sales complied with the new VAT law. Unless, of course, one is content to put all sales through the big boys (Clickbank, Amazon etc)..which I would much rather not do, and which would not work for WSO's anyway.

          Someone told me earlier today that Zaxaa can be used as a WSO buy button; therefore that's probably the solution I'll be going for..
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          • Profile picture of the author Kris79
            Originally Posted by pxjenkins View Post

            Zaxaa can either a) detect the IP of customer and add VAT at appropriate rate (if one is registered and therefore entitled to charge VAT as a vendor), or b) block/re-direct any IP coming from specific countries or the EU as a block (one can de-select specific countries after bull adding). I use the latter approach, re-directing non-UK EU traffic to a VAT-compiant solution (e.g. FastSpring, Clickbank, Udemy etc). In order to be able to justify with 2 pieces of data down the line, I have also added Custom Info request to the order form: "What is your home country or country in which your business is based?"

            Basically, this new law is a nightmare for folk like me who are well below the VAT threshold, but who cannot count on not having an inquiry in the future to prove that sales complied with the new VAT law. Unless, of course, one is content to put all sales through the big boys (Clickbank, Amazon etc)..which I would much rather not do, and which would not work for WSO's anyway...
            Yes, this is nightmare, I also have concerns about this stuff.
            Because this isn't just about adding the correct VAT for particular country.
            this is also about proving that someone from US (or any other non-EU country) is really from that country and you are not trying to cheat.
            Imagine this: you block EU countries and you have all the sales to US, CA, AU.
            After few years some government tax employee things that this is weird and should be subject to control. And then you have to prove them that you have not been trying to cheat, just didn't sell to EU. And when you say that you were blocking those countries: they say this is is also illegal to block specific countries since this is discrimination (actually there is a paragraph in EU law that says that)

            So the whole thing is a little bit like: Paragraph 22.

            @pxjenkins
            I have a question for you:
            You mentioned FastSpring:
            are you able to build there sales funnel which would look like to this in Zaxaa/Jvzoo with upsells/downsales?

            PS.
            JVzoo have also implemented this, but I'm not sure about 2-point verification.
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            • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
              Originally Posted by Kris79 View Post

              Yes, this is nightmare, I also have concerns about this stuff.
              Because this isn't just about adding the correct VAT for particular country.
              this is also about proving that someone from US (or any other non-EU country) is really from that country and you are not trying to cheat.
              Imagine this: you block EU countries and you have all the sales to US, CA, AU.
              After few years some government tax employee things that this is weird and should be subject to control. And then you have to prove them that you have not been trying to cheat, just didn't sell to EU. And when you say that you were blocking those countries: they say this is is also illegal to block specific countries since this is discrimination (actually there is a paragraph in EU law that says that)

              So the whole thing is a little bit like: Paragraph 22.

              @pxjenkins
              I have a question for you:
              You mentioned FastSpring:
              are you able to build there sales funnel which would look like to this in Zaxaa/Jvzoo with upsells/downsales?

              PS.
              JVzoo have also implemented this, but I'm not sure about 2-point verification.
              Another point that people need to keep in mind. Blocking traffic is NOT a solution and will NOT prevent you from being liable to changes in the law.

              While you may well be blocking traffic based on IP address location, may people use proxies and VPNs for different reasons (watching shows on Netflix not available in their country, etc.)

              Those people who technically SHOULD be blocked will not be, and people who shouldn't will be blocked. The later isn`t so much of an issue, if they are smart enough they`ll disable the proxy and get trough if they really want to buy from you.

              The first scenario can land you in big problems however if an EU resident is allowed to buy from you via proxy. All they have to do is prove that an EU address is linked to his paypal or physical address, for example, and you are suddenly liable for failing to do proper verifications and collect taxes as you should.
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              • Profile picture of the author Valdor Kiebach
                I thought it was upto the payment processor to sort this out.

                If you have a product on Amazon for example then they are responsible for sorting out the tax and the same goes for envato, wsopro, jvzoo, clickbank etc...

                Come the day of reckoning it should be them that have to answer to the EU monster.

                I dont see why non EU countries dont just make their own law stating the opposite i.e digital products / services sold to EU countries are taxable at the sellers country rate.
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                • Profile picture of the author Alexandre Valois
                  Originally Posted by Valdor Kiebach View Post

                  I thought it was upto the payment processor to sort this out.

                  If you have a product on Amazon for example then they are responsible for sorting out the tax and the same goes for envato, wsopro, jvzoo, clickbank etc...

                  Come the day of reckoning it should be them that have to answer to the EU monster.

                  I dont see why non EU countries dont just make their own law stating the opposite i.e digital products / services sold to EU countries are taxable at the sellers country rate.
                  Payment processors have nothing to do with the sale. They process the payments. They take the money from A and give it to B. Just like a bank has nothing to do with any transactions paid for by check or credit card.

                  A is buying the product.
                  B is selling the product.
                  B uses (payment processor / merchant account / bank) C to accept payment.

                  B is the only party responsible for collecting taxes and following trade laws.

                  The exception is when it comes to online distribution platforms - Amazon, clickbank, 2CO, etc. where it is specified in their terms of service that they are RESELLERS of your product, to whom you grant a license to distribute in exchange of a royalty / commission.

                  In this case, yes, you are correct in saying that they are the ones responsible for applying the law - in this transaction you are only the product creator / owner and are not conducting any sale.

                  These are not to be confused to payment processors however.
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                  • Profile picture of the author JohnMcCabe
                    Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

                    Payment processors have nothing to do with the sale. They process the payments. They take the money from A and give it to B. Just like a bank has nothing to do with any transactions paid for by check or credit card.

                    A is buying the product.
                    B is selling the product.
                    B uses (payment processor / merchant account / bank) C to accept payment.

                    B is the only party responsible for collecting taxes and following trade laws.

                    The exception is when it comes to online distribution platforms - Amazon, clickbank, 2CO, etc. where it is specified in their terms of service that they are RESELLERS of your product, to whom you grant a license to distribute in exchange of a royalty / commission.

                    In this case, yes, you are correct in saying that they are the ones responsible for applying the law - in this transaction you are only the product creator / owner and are not conducting any sale.

                    These are not to be confused to payment processors however.
                    This is not universal.

                    While it may be less than common, some governments make both parties to a sale responsible for remitting the proper tax. I know this because Florida has one of those governments.

                    If I buy taxable goods or services, and the seller fails to collect the proper tax, I'm expected to keep track of such transactions and remit the proper tax myself.

                    As practiced, the law is unenforceable, but it is on the books. With 67 counties and an unknown number of local sales taxes, it would be impossible to audit even if people did attempt to comply.

                    I see much the same result for this new law. If I had to guess, most of the people on this forum are such small fish in the grand scheme of things that enforcing the law would be more expensive than what they could possibly collect.

                    My own thought is that rembo's contention that the EU will go after the gateways is where this is headed. Force the major marketplaces and large corporate entities to comply, and catch the users of those marketplaces in the net.

                    As for the USA enforcing EU tax laws, they can't even enforce their own. The numbers involved are just too great to create any kind of efficient monitoring if voluntary compliance doesn't work. Like the IRS, though, you can likely expect some high profile cases splashed across the news to frighten people - check that, encourage people into complying.
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                    • Profile picture of the author pxjenkins
                      Originally Posted by JohnMcCabe View Post

                      This is not universal.

                      While it may be less than common, some governments make both parties to a sale responsible for remitting the proper tax. I know this because Florida has one of those governments.

                      If I buy taxable goods or services, and the seller fails to collect the proper tax, I'm expected to keep track of such transactions and remit the proper tax myself.

                      As practiced, the law is unenforceable, but it is on the books. With 67 counties and an unknown number of local sales taxes, it would be impossible to audit even if people did attempt to comply.

                      I see much the same result for this new law. If I had to guess, most of the people on this forum are such small fish in the grand scheme of things that enforcing the law would be more expensive than what they could possibly collect.

                      My own thought is that rembo's contention that the EU will go after the gateways is where this is headed. Force the major marketplaces and large corporate entities to comply, and catch the users of those marketplaces in the net.

                      As for the USA enforcing EU tax laws, they can't even enforce their own. The numbers involved are just too great to create any kind of efficient monitoring if voluntary compliance doesn't work. Like the IRS, though, you can likely expect some high profile cases splashed across the news to frighten people - check that, encourage people into complying.
                      Really interesting re the obligation to track as a seller even though the processor may be the Reseller.

                      Re what the tax offices in EU may or may not go after: I'd say the jury is out on this one. In the UK, there are 400,000+ small traders on the internet. Although each individual seller represents small beer in terms of VAT collections, as a group it's quite tasty to government corridors of power who a) feel that such monies would be nice to have, and b) who have an encroaching feeling that the 'new economy' is passing them by.

                      So, unfortunately, although there has been much hullabaloo about this new law being aimed at the big cats - Amazon etc - who had been luxuriating in Luxembourg on 3% VAT and who may now will decamp to Ireland, there may be a secondary agenda in terms of target and timing. i.e. us!
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                • Profile picture of the author pxjenkins
                  Originally Posted by Valdor Kiebach View Post

                  I thought it was upto the payment processor to sort this out.

                  If you have a product on Amazon for example then they are responsible for sorting out the tax and the same goes for envato, wsopro, jvzoo, clickbank etc...

                  Come the day of reckoning it should be them that have to answer to the EU monster.

                  I dont see why non EU countries dont just make their own law stating the opposite i.e digital products / services sold to EU countries are taxable at the sellers country rate.
                  This seems to be happening on a case by case basis. There is a good Facebook group, featuring various strategies people are using to try to deal with this, at https://www.facebook.com/groups/DigitalVAT2015/

                  You'll note that in that group people are messaging the UK tax office saying that their products feature live support, webinars, Facebook masterminds etc etc. And getting exemptions on the basis that their products thereby involve more than minimal human intervention. Which is all well and good, up the point that some bureaucrat decided that such product features are not enough, at which point such a strategy is screwed.

                  It also does not take account of the 'front end' side of our businesses - i.e. that a customer may buy a pdf report for $7 and not buy the upsell for $27 that includes the webinars etc. I for one would definitely not want to have to include live support for every product I sell.

                  Re payment processors handling all the admin and payments - I think you need to check very carefully whether this is indeed the case. Given the considerable burden of this law, I suspect some if not most will semi-automate the data collection and order forms, but leave the final responsibility of admin and payment to the respective EU tax office (albeit one, if using the new MOSS system) to the product creator/seller.
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              • Profile picture of the author pxjenkins
                Originally Posted by Alexandre Valois View Post

                Another point that people need to keep in mind. Blocking traffic is NOT a solution and will NOT prevent you from being liable to changes in the law.

                While you may well be blocking traffic based on IP address location, may people use proxies and VPNs for different reasons (watching shows on Netflix not available in their country, etc.)

                Those people who technically SHOULD be blocked will not be, and people who shouldn't will be blocked. The later isn`t so much of an issue, if they are smart enough they`ll disable the proxy and get trough if they really want to buy from you.

                The first scenario can land you in big problems however if an EU resident is allowed to buy from you via proxy. All they have to do is prove that an EU address is linked to his paypal or physical address, for example, and you are suddenly liable for failing to do proper verifications and collect taxes as you should.
                Good point, and one that I considered..which is why I added a Custom Info field to order form requiring customer to state home/business country. The buyer can, of course, lie at that point...but I can demonstrate that I have made 'best efforts' to comply with the law.
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            • Profile picture of the author pxjenkins
              Originally Posted by Kris79 View Post

              Yes, this is nightmare, I also have concerns about this stuff.
              Because this isn't just about adding the correct VAT for particular country.
              this is also about proving that someone from US (or any other non-EU country) is really from that country and you are not trying to cheat.
              Imagine this: you block EU countries and you have all the sales to US, CA, AU.
              After few years some government tax employee things that this is weird and should be subject to control. And then you have to prove them that you have not been trying to cheat, just didn't sell to EU. And when you say that you were blocking those countries: they say this is is also illegal to block specific countries since this is discrimination (actually there is a paragraph in EU law that says that)

              So the whole thing is a little bit like: Paragraph 22.

              @pxjenkins
              I have a question for you:
              You mentioned FastSpring:
              are you able to build there sales funnel which would look like to this in Zaxaa/Jvzoo with upsells/downsales?

              PS.
              JVzoo have also implemented this, but I'm not sure about 2-point verification.
              Exactly right on all counts, as far as I can determine.

              Re the 2-point verification: I am adding a Custom Info field to my Zaxaa order form that requires the customer to state "What is your home country or country in which your business is based?" In tandem with the IP information that Zaxaa gathers for every customer, that should cover the records part (though these need to be kept for 10 years!!). And there may be data protection issues, requiring registration..not sure about that..

              As far as I can see, FastSpring does not enable funnel creation, but handles everything with Bundles. I'm setting one up right now, simply bundling my OTO with the front end and customer ticks boxes. Far from ideal, I know, but for the relatively small number of non-UK EU customers I'm likely to get, it'll serve purpose.

              Re the illegality of blocking: the solution I'm using personally does not, in fact, block anyone - it simply diverts them to a different order form enabling them to purchase through FastSpring. Therefore, as far as I can tell, it complies with the law.

              Re JVZoo - I know that they are on this, judging from feedback in various places, but my concern is whether they - JVZoo - will take on the burden of actually handling ALL the admin and payments associated with this messy law, or whether their solution will be more in the realm of gathering the purchaser data and requiring the seller/product creator to charge (and process) VAT at that point. In other words, semi-helping but not going the whole hog in the way that FastSpring, Amazon, Clickbank etc are doing.
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Kontango
    Don't look for excuses to not take action... just like JVzoo added the VAT option, and others like clickbank, you can do whatever you want, legally...
    Signature

    hmm

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  • Profile picture of the author nicoli
    The EU can't chase you outside of their jurisdiction, so if you are a resident of a country outside of that rubbish union, you shouldn't be too concerned. I'm certainly not concerned, and neither is my accountant or solicitor.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lizfish
    This is an interesting post. If I am a product creator based in the UK and my JV partner is based in the US. We have a product registered on JV Zoo and they are listed as the vendor. We have a profit share arrangement. Does that make me exempt as technically, I am not the vendor and they are selling it.
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  • Profile picture of the author arindamb
    Guess what...if it's this complicated for just a handful of Warriors here, it's definitely going to be stuff of nightmares for those enforcing such trash. I'm sure it's going to take a backseat while the fatsos try to figure out things over kebabs and booze. This is just so impractical!
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  • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
    Banned
    I'll wait until Paypal tells me I have to change something. If that happens I'm confident they will take care of it for me.

    If someone in the EU wants to come looking for me, over a few dollars they "claim" I owe, all I can say is, "Come get some!"
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    • Hi Brent

      We tend to agree.

      However - it looks like all of the go ahead firms that we deal with are starting to cater for this and it will become something that they insist we all comply on as it rolls out.

      Just another day at the office.

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith
      Originally Posted by Brent Stangel View Post

      I'll wait until Paypal tells me I have to change something. If that happens I'm confident they will take care of it for me.

      If someone in the EU wants to come looking for me, over a few dollars they "claim" I owe, all I can say is, "Come get some!"
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  • Profile picture of the author 1byte
    As mentioned by several others, EU has no jurisdiction over the U.S. for collecting taxes. If someday the U.S. changes its tax laws to compel collection of these taxes, I'll worry about it then. No need losing sleep over something that will not affect me for now.
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    • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
      Originally Posted by 1byte View Post

      No need losing sleep over something that will not affect me for now.
      I agree to some extent, but it will affect you...

      A subscriber from France recently contacted me after sending out a promo email. The cost of the product I promoted was $27, he was expected to pay $32 at checkout.

      I have no idea why this vendor was charging VAT in the first place

      That was enough to cause him not to purchase initially (I actually paid the VAT for him when he purchased through my link)

      I definitely see his point and I would be pissed. $5 here $5 there adds up. I have a feeling we will all see a hit in sales. That takes a chunk out of disposable income.

      It will also be interesting to see if there's a increase in piracy or refunds. Yes, it's already out of control, but this is just another incentive for people to go out looking for freebies.

      Personally, I believe the whole thing is utter non-sense and just makes it much harder for any small business person or entrepreneur to operate. The burden is already greater now than its ever been.

      I can't picture anything like this will ever fly in the U.S. If there's one thing politicians are good at, it's protecting their own ass, a vote for something like VAT here would be political suicide not only for that individual, but the political party as a whole who would allow for something like this to happen.

      Just my thoughts based on my understanding of VAT. I haven't taken the time to research VAT that deeply though.
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      • Profile picture of the author 1byte
        Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post


        A subscriber from France recently contacted me after sending out a promo email. The cost of the product I promoted was $27, he was expected to pay $32 at checkout.

        I have no idea why this vendor was charging VAT in the first place
        If you're an affiliate of the product, then let the vendor handle it. You might want to explain in your email the the price is "X", plus any additional applicable VAT according to jurisdiction. Your subscribers/customers should understand that.

        Kind of like when I buy any retail item here in California, I know I will pay the price of the product plus local and state sales tax, which is 8% where I live. So a $25 item will actually cost $25.00 + $2.00, for a total of $27.00 at the checkstand. I don't question it--I just expect it because I know it's something that's always added to the price of the product

        As a U.S. business however, there is no way I can see that the EU can force you to collect taxes, because they have no taxing authority in the U.S. or other non-EU countries. They can't enforce a law in a country not part of the EU, unless said country allows enforcement. I don't see this happening any time soon, if ever. Which is why I'm not going to worry about it...
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        • Profile picture of the author Mark Hess
          Originally Posted by 1byte View Post

          If you're an affiliate of the product, then let the vendor handle it. You might want to explain in your email the the price is "X", plus any additional applicable VAT according to jurisdiction. Your subscribers/customers should understand that.
          Trust me, I know how affiliate and email marketing works.

          When you said this in your other post:

          Originally Posted by 1byte View Post

          No need losing sleep over something that will not affect me for now.
          What I was getting at is the fact it almost cost me a sale and if it happened this one time, I'm wondering how many more sales this could potentially cost me when this goes into full swing.

          That was the first time someone brought it to my attention that the VAT factored into a purchasing decision.

          So even people in the U.S. are affected by this to some extent.
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      • Profile picture of the author Rembo
        Originally Posted by Mark Hess View Post

        I agree to some extent, but it will affect you...
        You hit the nail right on his head.

        I'm from The Netherlands (a EU citizen) and let me explain a bit as to how this works. The process below is simplified but in it's core that is how I believe it works.

        The EU is all about money, money and more money. Whatever they are talking about, they are talking about money. Money = Power. More money = More power.

        They are a zillion other issues, one even more important than the other, but ultimately 95% of it is just about money. Grab and divide.

        Their primary focus is to sqeeze money out of the pockets of EU citizens. Whatever they manage to sqeeuze out of the pockets of non-EU citizens is a nice bonus.

        Whatever their plans are, they are after your money and it WILL affect you.

        The sequence is very simple;

        1) Create some new legislation (doesn't really matter what other countries think of it, the EU can do what it wants right?).
        2) Enforce rules on parties that are in control of the money flow. That means Clickbank, JVZoo, WarriorPlus, PayPal, banks etc.

        I don't think they will be going after individual buyers or sellers, that is way too costly. It will drain the bag of money they so deperately want to grow. As said, they will go the easiest route and that is probably to lean on then entities that have a key position the money flow. Joe Average does not need to worry.

        I realize I sound somewhat pessimistic but so far that is what jumped out to me watching the EU taking more and more control over the participating countries.
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        Smarter Affiliate Money. Work Smarter, Earn More.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ian Jackson
          Originally Posted by Rembo View Post

          You hit the nail right on his head.

          I'm from The Netherlands (a EU citizen) and let me explain a bit as to how this works. The process below is simplified but in it's core that is how I believe it works.

          The EU is all about money, money and more money. Whatever they are talking about, they are talking about money. Money = Power. More money = More power.

          They are a zillion other issues, one even more important than the other, but ultimately 95% of it is just about money. Grab and divide.

          Their primary focus is to sqeeze money out of the pockets of EU citizens. Whatever they manage to sqeeuze out of the pockets of non-EU citizens is a nice bonus.

          Whatever their plans are, they are after your money and it WILL affect you.

          The sequence is very simple;

          1) Create some new legislation (doesn't really matter what other countries think of it, the EU can do what it wants right?).
          2) Enforce rules on parties that are in control of the money flow. That means Clickbank, JVZoo, WarriorPlus, PayPal, banks etc.

          I don't think they will be going after individual buyers or sellers, that is way too costly. It will drain the bag of money they so deperately want to grow. As said, they will go the easiest route and that is probably to lean on then entities that have a key position the money flow. Joe Average does not need to worry.

          I realize I sound somewhat pessimistic but so far that is what jumped out to me watching the EU taking more and more control over the participating countries.
          Interesting.

          However "I don't think" is different from "I know for sure, here's the evidence..."

          "Joe Average does not need to worry"; a brave statement! Where's your proof?

          I'm not saying you're wrong but it's a dangerous minefield about which to make uncited statements or suppositions. If you can back-up what you're saying with hard evidence, that's a different thing altogether, and would bring confedence to many

          As it stands it's down to one's tolerance to risk... IMHO
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    As a US citizen I'm going to completely ignore this nonsense. And as for a taxman from a European country ending up on my doorstep - NOT going to happen - EVER. There is absolutely NO WAY that this can be enforced in the United States, in fact from what I've read most states have lined up to deem it unconstitutional. We have enough problems with the US economy as it is. I sincerely doubt that the US would ever allow a EU tax law to put thousands of small business people out of business. Furthermore, I doubt we'll ever see the day that thousands of US citizens have to pay taxes to another country on top of their own.

    I welcome the day I even receive some kind of correspondence telling me that I owe taxes to a foreign country. Why? It would make great kindling for my fireplace. Or better yet, I could keep it in the bathroom in case I run out of toilet paper.

    But seriously though, this is one of those things that people hear about and all of a sudden widespread panic occurs as people imagine their online businesses crumbling. In the end, Internet Marketing will stay as strong as ever, networks like JVZoo and Warrior Plus will figure out a way to integrate this into their system, and it will be business as usual again before you know it.

    In fact, I received a memo when I logged into JVZoo the other day regarding VAT, so they are already working on it I presume.

    I didn't bother to read the memo because I could really care less about that VAT. All I know is any tax money I pay will be paid to the government of The United States and never any other country (unless I move to that country, of course).
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    • Originally Posted by nicheblogger75 View Post

      As a US citizen I'm going to completely ignore this nonsense. And as for a taxman from a European country ending up on my doorstep - NOT going to happen - EVER. There is absolutely NO WAY that this can be enforced in the United States, in fact from what I've read most states have lined up to deem it unconstitutional. We have enough problems with the US economy as it is. I sincerely doubt that the US would ever allow a EU tax law to put thousands of small business people out of business. Furthermore, I doubt we'll ever see the day that thousands of US citizens have to pay taxes to another country on top of their own.

      I welcome the day I even receive some kind of correspondence telling me that I owe taxes to a foreign country. Why? It would make great kindling for my fireplace. Or better yet, I could keep it in the bathroom in case I run out of toilet paper.

      But seriously though, this is one of those things that people hear about and all of a sudden widespread panic occurs as people imagine their online businesses crumbling. In the end, Internet Marketing will stay as strong as ever, networks like JVZoo and Warrior Plus will figure out a way to integrate this into their system, and it will be business as usual again before you know it.

      In fact, I received a memo when I logged into JVZoo the other day regarding VAT, so they are already working on it I presume.

      I didn't bother to read the memo because I could really care less about that VAT. All I know is any tax money I pay will be paid to the government of The United States and never any other country (unless I move to that country, of course).
      God bless you.
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      soon people... Relax...
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      • Profile picture of the author Tonester
        International law is an extremely complicated thing. That's why the suits and ties get paid the big bucks.

        There is ABSOULTELY no way that this issue is ever going to be resolved anytime soon with a cut-and-dry/black and white kind of answer. It will probably be resolved as most laws are, in courts, when some decision is handed down by some judge or jury and some unfortunate sole is the one defending his/her position.

        Like all laws ever written, they are rarely black and white and are ALL subject to interpretation and can even be interpreted differently by different elected officials on different days of the week. There are soooo many scenarios and variables to this law, it's mind boggling!

        The question then becomes, are you going to ignore it or not. It's all up to each individual and the amount of risk he/she is willing to take. I take a risk every time I get in my car and drive. We all take risks every day. How much risk can you accept? This is the big question only you can answer for yourself.

        Oh, and BTW, what about blocking the EU entirely. How many sales would you loose? I'm not sure. Would it be a a lot? I've actually thought about blocking all of the EU accept the UK, which would make it much easier to manage - collected tax from only 1 country instead of 28 or so.

        Any thoughts on that?

        Oh, another thing. Aren't we supposed to be collecting US sales tax from customers in the same state where we're located. If I'm located in PA. I should be collecting PA sales tax and remitting it to PA. Or are digital goods exempt here in the US?

        Tony (The Tonester)
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  • Profile picture of the author Latif A.
    is this law also effective for affiliates also? someone please...
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    • Hi

      Compliance issues impact on all parties in a transaction.

      Where it may impact on affiliates a bit more than anticipated is that it may affect the number of sales that you get credit for.

      Primarily is would be due to people in the EU deciding not to buy because of the added VAT.

      Mark Hess had a good response to a situation like this by offering to effectively reduce his commission by paying the VAT component for his buyer.

      Not sure that we would have done the same but a "sale is a sale"

      Regards

      Bronwyn and Keith

      Originally Posted by Latif A. View Post

      is this law also effective for affiliates also? someone please...
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  • Profile picture of the author jasonwebb71
    This is supposedly "The #1 Internet Marketing Forum & Marketplace", yet it seems to be home to many people who want to do international business whilst paying no attention at all to any international laws that may be involved in that process. If you trade with those countries then you should abide by their laws.

    I thought this was a place for discussing legitimate business, not a home for fly-by-night tax evaders (especially ones foolish enough to publicly gloat about it). Don't the moderators care about posts that blatantly discuss law-breaking?
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    Now I remember why I left here many years ago!
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    • Profile picture of the author nicoli
      Originally Posted by jasonwebb71 View Post

      This is supposedly "The #1 Internet Marketing Forum & Marketplace", yet it seems to be home to many people who want to do international business whilst paying no attention at all to any international laws that may be involved in that process. If you trade with those countries then you should abide by their laws.

      I thought this was a place for discussing legitimate business, not a home for fly-by-night tax evaders (especially ones foolish enough to publicly gloat about it). Don't the moderators care about posts that blatantly discuss law-breaking?
      You don't have to be here
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    • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
      Originally Posted by jasonwebb71 View Post

      This is supposedly "The #1 Internet Marketing Forum & Marketplace", yet it seems to be home to many people who want to do international business whilst paying no attention at all to any international laws that may be involved in that process. If you trade with those countries then you should abide by their laws............I thought this was a place for discussing legitimate business, not a home for fly-by-night tax evaders (especially ones foolish enough to publicly gloat about it)

      There is a tribal nation in which all products sold must be blessed by a voodoo doctor (a process that involves anointing the product with goat pee).

      You should abide their laws.

      Until you do you are a "fly-by-night goat pee tax evader".
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      • Profile picture of the author jasonwebb71
        Originally Posted by Mike Anthony View Post

        There is a tribal nation in which all products sold must be blessed by a voodoo doctor (a process that involves anointing the product with goat pee).

        You should abide their laws.

        Until you do you are a "fly-by-night goat pee tax evader".
        Well, that's a very grown-up reply. I hope that you're a bit more mature when charging your clients $1000 a time for your "services".

        EDIT: Also Mr Anthony, don't you feel it's a little racist that in reply to a legitimate thread and comment about doing business with foreign countries, you start talking about a "tribal nation", "voodoo", and "goat pee"?
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        Now I remember why I left here many years ago!
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        • Profile picture of the author nicoli
          Originally Posted by jasonwebb71 View Post

          Well, that's a very grown-up reply. I hope that you're a bit more mature when charging your clients $1000 a time for your "services".

          EDIT: Also Mr Anthony, don't you feel it's a little racist that in reply to a legitimate thread and comment about doing business with foreign countries, you start talking about a "tribal nation", "voodoo", and "goat pee".
          I believe it's racism when a race is brought into it which it is not, and you digress. Stay on topic.
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          • Profile picture of the author jasonwebb71
            Originally Posted by nicoli View Post

            I believe it's racism when a race is brought into it which it is not, and you digress. Stay on topic.
            Since voodoo is practiced primarily by the Haitian people (who are mainly of African descent), I think a race was brought into it. Not only that, Mike Anthony's post was mocking their religious beliefs.

            Also, I believe it was Mr Anthony's attempt at childish humour that took this off-topic, as well as your own "You don't have to be here" comment, which makes you rather hypocritical.

            This is a thread about European tax laws, not about the religious beliefs of a Caribbean island's inhabitants.
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            • Profile picture of the author CASHsystems
              Wow, how did this convo jump into something about race? His comment was not racist at all. He was simply showing how many states, countries and territories have different practices, laws and customs and how difficult it is to enforce every law from every location. (Some of which would be impossible to enforce or ridiculous)

              As a side note, Voodo is not just a "Hatian/African descent" custom. A rose by any other name is a rose. When I spent time in Mexico, they talked about the "Curandero", which is a voodo witch doctor by another name and another heritage.


              Originally Posted by jasonwebb71 View Post

              Since voodoo is practiced primarily by the Haitian people (who are mainly of African descent), I think a race was brought into it. Not only that, Mike Anthony's post was mocking their religious beliefs.

              Also, I believe it was Mr Anthony's attempt at childish humour that took this off-topic, as well as your own "You don't have to be here" comment, which makes you rather hypocritical.

              This is a thread about European tax laws, not about the religious beliefs of a Caribbean island's inhabitants.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by jasonwebb71 View Post

          EDIT: Also Mr Anthony, don't you feel it's a little racist that in reply to a legitimate thread and comment about doing business with foreign countries, you start talking about a "tribal nation", "voodoo", and "goat pee"?
          No I don't since tribal nations,voodoo and goat pee are not a reference to a race. You were the only one associating them. Your accusation that I am implying something against people of African Descent doesn't even make sense because I am African American.

          the point was very simple and relevant. Every part of the world does not have to subscribe to every law and rule anywhere in the world or be labelled tax evaders. Thats a pretty ridiculous claim as is accusing an African American of being racist against people of African descent .

          When the US indicates they will collect taxes for the EU then it will be enforceable here and you can cry about law breakers and tax evaders. to be honest the whole thing is just a money grab by the EU. taxes should be based on the point of sale and since my servers are US based then I should pay the US taxes not the EU.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron C Farrow
    Am I missing something here?

    UK sellers cannot collect VAT unless they are registered for VAT, fill out returns etc. There is no obligation to register for VAT unless your turnover is in excess of £84,000 ($130,000) per annum. So that's me covered for any WSO's I release in 2015.
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    • Profile picture of the author Janet Sawyer
      Originally Posted by Ron C Farrow View Post

      Am I missing something here?

      UK sellers cannot collect VAT unless they are registered for VAT, fill out returns etc. There is no obligation to register for VAT unless your turnover is in excess of £84,000 ($130,000) per annum. So that's me covered for any WSO's I release in 2015.
      Hi Ron,

      The threshold is only applicable to UK sales. EU sales are vatable at the rate of the country of purchase. Because you don't live in that particular country for example France, you have to charge the French "Customer" (not a Business) VAT for the product at their country rate.

      Each of the registered EU countries has different VAT rates and if you are a non resident, which you are as you live in the UK you are now legally obliged to charge the correct amount of VAT.

      Apparently you can register with VATMOSS and declare this VAT charged and they will pay it over to the correct EU country. Registering with VATMOSS doesn't mean you have to charge UK residents VAT until you hit the UK threshold, just EU customers.

      And that's where it is at for now......................
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    • Profile picture of the author danielmcclure
      Originally Posted by Ron C Farrow View Post

      Am I missing something here?

      UK sellers cannot collect VAT unless they are registered for VAT, fill out returns etc. There is no obligation to register for VAT unless your turnover is in excess of £84,000 ($130,000) per annum. So that's me covered for any WSO's I release in 2015.

      My understanding is that you still need to register for a VAT account and you will only be exempt on the UK sales, you will still be liable for EU sales to other states within the scheme.
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  • Profile picture of the author sunoy14
    Should I charge the customers VAT rates of their country or my country? Or my server location country? And how am I supposed to pay EU the VAT that I collect from customers?
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  • Profile picture of the author sunoy14
    Why on earth did the governments create VAT. Arghhh...
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  • Profile picture of the author bwh1
    Not sure if I'm in the wrong boat or not but some US states charge sales tax for quiet some time and EU Citizens are also used to pay sales tax when they buy something so guess they are used to see a VAT on top of the sales price.

    Another beast is when the processor don't comply, but IMO if you are not shuffle tons of sales they hardly have the manpower to go after you in another country for charging a few hundred bucks.

    This is not a recommendation to ignore it tough, just saying that the dust may settle first to see how this will be applicable in real time.

    G.
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    • Profile picture of the author Ian Jackson
      Originally Posted by Tonester View Post

      International law is an extremely complicated thing. That's why the suits and ties get paid the big bucks.

      There is ABSOULTELY no way that this issue is ever going to be resolved anytime soon with a cut-and-dry/black and white kind of answer. It will probably be resolved as most laws are, in courts, when some decision is handed down by some judge or jury and some unfortunate sole is the one defending his/her position.

      Like all laws ever written, they are rarely black and white and are ALL subject to interpretation and can even be interpreted differently by different elected officials on different days of the week. There are soooo many scenarios and variables to this law, it's mind boggling!

      The question then becomes, are you going to ignore it or not. It's all up to each individual and the amount of risk he/she is willing to take. I take a risk every time I get in my car and drive. We all take risks every day. How much risk can you accept? This is the big question only you can answer for yourself.

      Oh, and BTW, what about blocking the EU entirely. How many sales would you loose? I'm not sure. Would it be a a lot? I've actually thought about blocking all of the EU accept the UK, which would make it much easier to manage - collected tax from only 1 country instead of 28 or so.

      Any thoughts on that?

      Oh, another thing. Aren't we supposed to be collecting US sales tax from customers in the same state where we're located. If I'm located in PA. I should be collecting PA sales tax and remitting it to PA. Or are digital goods exempt here in the US?

      Tony (The Tonester)
      I think you'll find that if you are selling (from anywhere) to anyone in the EU, then you are potentially liable. Citations are all over the net. That asides, it's down to your tolerance for risk. No need to take my word for it or course !

      Originally Posted by sunoy14 View Post

      Why on earth did the governments create VAT. Arghhh...
      You know why... it's so that they can collect more tax from you ! The more ways they can collect tax, the happier they are. The remit of any Chancellor is simply to scavenge as much tax from the population (of any country) as he/she can, end of.
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  • Profile picture of the author goneill
    It is spreading across the Globe

    Noticed this move by Chinese Government on online sales

    Here is the Link: Taobao Owners to Be First Affected by Citizen's Tax ID

    It appears to me that there is a World Wide Government move to hit On line sales via tax collection
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  • Profile picture of the author CASHsystems
    Getting more and more difficult to keep up with all these laws. I know it is the price of doing business, but there ought to be some kinda of uniformity.
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