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Forum Signatures Can Work If...

by Steven Wagenheim
17 replies
You're not a total jackass.

I realize that I pretty much shot myself in the foot here at the good old WF and have nobody to blame but myself for that.

But...

I did learn a valuable lesson from this place.

At a music based forum that I now attend, after being a member since August (it's been over 4 months now) I finally put a couple of links to music related products in my signature.

During those 4 months, I've gone out of my way to help those newer to the music game while a lot of the "pros" just don't seem to have the time anymore. They can't be bothered with the constant newbie questions that I have no problem answering.

As a result, I've slowly become a trusted member there, though I only have a little under 500 posts. I'm currently helping one member out with his songwriting offering him some tips on how to improve to which he has thanked me for.

I added my signature at around 12 noon. It's about 1 hour later and I already have 2 sales for 2 of my sound libraries. Naturally, if the demos sucked it wouldn't have made any difference, so quality does matter.

Point is, help people. Don't be a jackass like I've been here. Be humble. Don't argue, especially when you can see it's a lost cause. It doesn't take very long for people to start trusting and liking you.

I honestly didn't know what to expect when I added my signature to that forum.

Now all I have to do is continue being the kind of member there that I should have been here all along and sincerely regret not being. Maybe being in my normal musical element might have something to do with it. I never really felt like an Internet marketer and never really felt like I fit in here. I think it explains a lot.

With the recent threads on the downturn of the WF, I don't know how much longer I'll even be here. But if one person gets something out of this post (as Will Wheaton says "Don't Be A Dick") then these few minutes won't have been for nothing.

And I've learned THAT much, then my time here wasn't for nothing either.
#forum #signatures #work
  • Profile picture of the author edmltw
    I remembered back then when article marketing was the craze (EzineArticles etc) you were the man to follow. Really appreciate all the valuable advice you've given back then, and I hope you continue to do so too!

    TBH, I was little shocked to see the change in your profile picture. I wish you a fast recovery and god bless!

    On a gentler note, Merry Christmas Steven!

    Ed
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  • Profile picture of the author Peter Kontango
    Yes... authority. People trust you now
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    hmm

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  • Profile picture of the author Jezreel Pigott
    Originally Posted by Steven Wagenheim View Post

    You're not a total jackass.

    I realize that I pretty much shot myself in the foot here at the good old WF and have nobody to blame but myself for that.

    But...

    I did learn a valuable lesson from this place.

    At a music based forum that I now attend, after being a member since August (it's been over 4 months now) I finally put a couple of links to music related products in my signature.

    During those 4 months, I've gone out of my way to help those newer to the music game while a lot of the "pros" just don't seem to have the time anymore. They can't be bothered with the constant newbie questions that I have no problem answering.

    As a result, I've slowly become a trusted member there, though I only have a little under 500 posts. I'm currently helping one member out with his songwriting offering him some tips on how to improve to which he has thanked me for.

    I added my signature at around 12 noon. It's about 1 hour later and I already have 2 sales for 2 of my sound libraries. Naturally, if the demos sucked it wouldn't have made any difference, so quality does matter.

    Point is, help people. Don't be a jackass like I've been here. Be humble. Don't argue, especially when you can see it's a lost cause. It doesn't take very long for people to start trusting and liking you.

    I honestly didn't know what to expect when I added my signature to that forum.

    Now all I have to do is continue being the kind of member there that I should have been here all along and sincerely regret not being. Maybe being in my normal musical element might have something to do with it. I never really felt like an Internet marketer and never really felt like I fit in here. I think it explains a lot.

    With the recent threads on the downturn of the WF, I don't know how much longer I'll even be here. But if one person gets something out of this post (as Will Wheaton says "Don't Be A Dick") then these few minutes won't have been for nothing.

    And I've learned THAT much, then my time here wasn't for nothing either.
    Apology Accepted.
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    • Profile picture of the author Jeff Schuman
      Steve is right. Help first, profit second. For members with minimum time you may even go so far as to think of your forum marketing as charity and anything that comes from it in terms of profit as gravy. That is a personal choice, but the Golden Rule should apply in my view.
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  • Profile picture of the author Randall Magwood
    Steven after reading your post, i was instantly reminded of a line of advice that Terry Dean said in one of his products:

    "Give first, and prove your worth." He was talking about the strategy of offering something for free first, and demonstrate to your lead that you're the real deal.

    Nevertheless, you're an experienced marketer and this post serves as a great lesson. Forum marketing and forum sigs definitely can and DO work... especially if you're on a non-internet marketing forum - where everyone is virtually saying the same thing as everyone else lol.

    I'm just trying to say great post and great wisdom from you.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ron Killian
    I guess I don't spend enough time here, that I missed the hoopla.

    But I think it speaks volumes for some one who can be honest and humble.

    So agree that helping first is the best route. I for one am an thankful that there are SO many people here that do help. Even with it's flaws, it's still one of the best IM forums. You might have to dig through some junk, but there is so much gold here.
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  • Profile picture of the author Vince Rivera
    "We become what we want to be by being what we want to become everyday."

    If you want to be successful, do things that successful people do.

    If need help, then help others.

    Thanks for the inspiring post Steven.

    --
    Vince Rivera
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    ...stop building other peoples dream...

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    • Profile picture of the author kilgore
      Allow me to dissent -- not from Steve's great advice (which I think provides fantastic tips on how to successfully use forums to market), but on the very idea that forum marketing is a worthwhile tactic at all. Personally, I think that if you ranked traffic generation techniques by effectiveness, cost (both financial and the time/effort costs) and scalability forum marketing would have to rate pretty low.

      I don't do forum marketing, so take this analysis with a healthy grain of salt, but here's how I'd break it down:
      • Effectiveness: 5/5 -- at least if you follow Steve's (excellent) advice above, by being genuinely helpful on topically relevant forums. What I do like about forum marketing is that if done right, it's not only a very targeted form of marketing, but you've also already built relationships with your potential customers before they even know they're potential customers.
      • Cost: 1/5. Yes, forum marketing is generally "free", but it's so time intensive. As Steve so rightly observed, it takes time to build a reputation, at least a good reputation -- a bad reputation is really easy to build up quickly. Moreover, the amount of effort that it takes per click is really high. The people who talk about their successful forum marketing efforts generally are happy with just a few dozen clicks per day. Maybe if you're really active and really good, you might get a couple hundred clicks/day -- though, that (to me at least) seems unlikely. But even so, I'm supposed to spend an hour or two (or more!) each day in order to maybe -- maybe -- get 100 visitors? No, thank you.
      • Scalability: 0/5.This is really the deal killer for me. The problem is that forum marketing is really hard -- if not impossible -- to scale; you might be able to build your reputation through time, but how do you build your audience? If you get 100 people to view one of your forum posts today, a year from now you'll probably still only get 100 people to view your forum post. For one thing, you have no control over the traffic that the forum you're posting on is getting, so you can't grow a forum following the same way that you can an email list or a Facebook fan page. For another thing, forum posts are very transitory and so even if a thread is very active and lots of people reading it, few people actually read the entire conversation -- at best, I imagine most people read the OP, the first comment or two and then skip to the end -- so you're not even getting more eyeballs on your posting even if the forum's traffic grows. And while I suppose you could hire staff or outsource forum posting so as to be able to reach more people, I just don't see that as being cost efficient. Either the quality of the posts will suffer or the staff cost will be too high compared to the returns.

      I'm not saying the forum marketing is completely useless. In the early stages of a business, it does make sense to leverage existing networks (such as forums) to build a following -- even if those networks aren't scalable over the long term. Moreover, if the products you're selling are particularly expensive or some other factor makes each click especially valuable, I can see it working. But for me a rule of thumb is that if I wouldn't find it worth it to hire someone to do whatever business activity I'm doing, it's probably not worth doing at all. And for me at least, forum marketing very much fails this test.

      So if you find forums fun (I do!), by all means participate. And if you get a little business on the side, so much the better. But if you're still using forum marketing as an important traffic generation source even six months into your business, you're probably not spending your time very well.
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      • Profile picture of the author Ron Killian
        Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

        Allow me to dissent -- not from Steve's great advice (which I think provides fantastic tips on how to successfully use forums to market), but on the very idea that forum marketing is a worthwhile tactic at all. Personally, I think that if you ranked traffic generation techniques by effectiveness, cost (both financial and the time/effort costs) and scalability forum marketing would have to rate pretty low.

        I don't do forum marketing, so take this analysis with a healthy grain of salt, but here's how I'd break it down:
        • Effectiveness: 5/5 -- at least if you follow Steve's (excellent) advice above, by being genuinely helpful on topically relevant forums. What I do like about forum marketing is that if done right, it's not only a very targeted form of marketing, but you've also already built relationships with your potential customers before they even know they're potential customers.
        • Cost: 1/5. Yes, forum marketing is generally "free", but it's so time intensive. As Steve so rightly observed, it takes time to build a reputation, at least a good reputation -- a bad reputation is really easy to build up quickly. Moreover, the amount of effort that it takes per click is really high. The people who talk about their successful forum marketing efforts generally are happy with just a few dozen clicks per day. Maybe if you're really active and really good, you might get a couple hundred clicks/day -- though, that (to me at least) seems unlikely. But even so, I'm supposed to spend an hour or two (or more!) each day in order to maybe -- maybe -- get 100 visitors? No, thank you.
        • Scalability: 0/5.This is really the deal killer for me. The problem is that forum marketing is really hard -- if not impossible -- to scale; you might be able to build your reputation through time, but how do you build your audience? If you get 100 people to view one of your forum posts today, a year from now you'll probably still only get 100 people to view your forum post. For one thing, you have no control over the traffic that the forum you're posting on is getting, so you can't grow a forum following the same way that you can an email list or a Facebook fan page. For another thing, forum posts are very transitory and so even if a thread is very active and lots of people reading it, few people actually read the entire conversation -- at best, I imagine most people read the OP, the first comment or two and then skip to the end -- so you're not even getting more eyeballs on your posting even if the forum's traffic grows. And while I suppose you could hire staff or outsource forum posting so as to be able to reach more people, I just don't see that as being cost efficient. Either the quality of the posts will suffer or the staff cost will be too high compared to the returns.

        I'm not saying the forum marketing is completely useless. In the early stages of a business, it does make sense to leverage existing networks (such as forums) to build a following -- even if those networks aren't scalable over the long term. Moreover, if the products you're selling are particularly expensive or some other factor makes each click especially valuable, I can see it working. But for me a rule of thumb is that if I wouldn't find it worth it to hire someone to do whatever business activity I'm doing, it's probably not worth doing at all. And for me at least, forum marketing very much fails this test.

        So if you find forums fun (I do!), by all means participate. And if you get a little business on the side, so much the better. But if you're still using forum marketing as an important traffic generation source even six months into your business, you're probably not spending your time very well.
        While I completely agree on most everything you said. On the other side, what value can you give to Reputation, Authority Or Expert Status? If it could even be measured? These factors alone could turn a new business into a huge business. It could be worth MUCH MORE than the time it took to post.

        How many people on this forum alone that have gone from unknown to brand names.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by kilgore View Post


        So if you find forums fun (I do!), by all means participate. And if you get a little business on the side, so much the better. But if you're still using forum marketing as an important traffic generation source even six months into your business, you're probably not spending your time very well.
        I think the better benefit from a forum, such as this, is the contacts you can make and the opportunities that can arise from those relationships.

        Too many people gloss over that important piece and only look at the wso section, banners, signatures, etc... for immediate sales.
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        • Profile picture of the author Ron Killian
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          I think the better benefit from a forum, such as this, is the contacts you can make and the opportunities that can arise from those relationships.

          Too many people gloss over that important piece and only look at the wso section, banners, signatures, etc... for immediate sales.
          Networking can be priceless
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  • Profile picture of the author JensSteyaert
    It defiately works, and if you post quality replies then you can definately increase your reputation and increase your trust.

    That's something many people don't realise how important that is in the online world.

    So yeah great post and something to think about for new people here.
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    • Profile picture of the author kilgore
      Originally Posted by Ron Killian View Post

      On the other side, what value can you give to Reputation, Authority Or Expert Status? If it could even be measured? These factors alone could turn a new business into a huge business. It could be worth MUCH MORE than the time it took to post.
      If by "reputation, authority and expert status", you mean the ego stroke one gets by having someone click the "Thanks" button on some post, I'll agree. But real reputation comes from what you do, not just what you say you do on some forum.

      Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

      I think the better benefit from a forum, such as this, is the contacts you can make and the opportunities that can arise from those relationships.
      I'll certainly concede that forums could conceivably be reasonable places to network -- at least, assuming that the people you want to network with are on the forum in the first place. But doing something for networking purposes and doing something for marketing purposes are very different and require very different strategies. And I still maintain that forum marketing is generally a waste of time.

      Originally Posted by Ron Killian View Post

      How many people on this forum alone that have gone from unknown to brand names.
      Very few in relationship to the total number of forum users that this forum has had over the years. Moreover, how many of these "brand names" still use this forum for marketing (or even networking)? Few, if any. Why? It's just not worth the time.
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      • Profile picture of the author Tom B
        Banned
        Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

        I'll certainly concede that forums could conceivably be reasonable places to network -- at least, assuming that the people you want to network with are on the forum in the first place. But doing something for networking purposes and doing something for marketing purposes are very different and require very different strategies. And I still maintain that forum marketing is generally a waste of time.
        I disagree. I assume we are talking about helping people here first and benefiting with sales second. That was the idea of this thread unless I am mistaken.

        Doing just that can help you in both areas, networking and marketing.

        I never set out to network here. Because I was active, I ended up meeting quite a few people that I am still in contact inside and outside the forum. The ideas I have gained from brainstorming, with these people, has made me a lot of money.

        Not only that, but the people I met on this forum has helped me form my current product offerings. A ton of testing and feedback from this forum and the people on it. Absolutely priceless.

        That is all marketing as far as I'm concerned.

        I can't really put a roi on this type of stuff but it is well worth it to me. That is why I will always have a soft spot for this forum.
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        • Profile picture of the author kilgore
          Originally Posted by Thomas Belknap View Post

          I disagree. I assume we are talking about helping people here first and benefiting with sales second. That was the idea of this thread unless I am mistaken.

          Doing just that can help you in both areas, networking and marketing.

          I never set out to network here. Because I was active, I ended up meeting quite a few people that I am still in contact inside and outside the forum. The ideas I have gained from brainstorming, with these people, has made me a lot of money.

          Not only that, but the people I met on this forum has helped me form my current product offerings. A ton of testing and feedback from this forum and the people on it. Absolutely priceless.

          That is all marketing as far as I'm concerned.

          I can't really put a roi on this type of stuff but it is well worth it to me. That is why I will always have a soft spot for this forum.
          Again, I'm not disputing that forums can be useful -- I wouldn't be here, if I got nothing out of it. My point is about forum marketing. And here, I think we may just have to agree to disagree.

          For one thing, I think we have different definitions of marketing. Marketing to me (well, really to Google -- which I think we all can agree should be the final arbiter in any disagreement ) is "the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising." Getting ideas, brainstorming, meeting people and getting feedback doesn't count as marketing to me. Am I marketing when I'm reading a book about marketing? I certainly don't think so; I'd call that learning. And that to me is what using this forum is about.

          As an example, one thing I like to do on this forum is put out ideas in very opinionated or contrarian language (such as forum marketing is a waste of time) with the hope that smart people like you will challenge me with ideas of their own. I definitely learn through these exchanges, but again, I wouldn't call it marketing.

          And yes, we're talking about helping first and selling second. But I guess what I'm saying is I think selling shouldn't come second. Maybe it should come 22nd. Or maybe not at all. When I'm selling, I'll do the things that will get me the biggest bang for the buck for selling -- when I'm networking or learning, I'll do the things that provide the greatest impact in those areas. And while I'll admit that the same activity can serve multiple purposes, I think selling in particular can get in the way of effective learning or networking, which again, is what I think forums are best used for.

          Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response!
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          • Profile picture of the author Tom B
            Banned
            Originally Posted by kilgore View Post

            Again, I'm not disputing that forums can be useful -- I wouldn't be here, if I got nothing out of it. My point is about forum marketing. And here, I think we may just have to agree to disagree.
            No worries Kilgore. It would be boring if we all agreed.

            For one thing, I think we have different definitions of marketing. Marketing to me (well, really to Google -- which I think we all can agree should be the final arbiter in any disagreement ) is "the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising." Getting ideas, brainstorming, meeting people and getting feedback doesn't count as marketing to me. Am I marketing when I'm reading a book about marketing? I certainly don't think so; I'd call that learning. And that to me is what using this forum is about.
            Well, I guess we do disagree! haha I would classify getting ideas, brainstorming, feedback as market research since they are my customers and/or their customers are my customers. Through those actions came products that I developed and sold.

            But I do agree on the learning portion when you can sift through the threads asking about how to post a wso.


            As an example, one thing I like to do on this forum is put out ideas in very opinionated or contrarian language (such as forum marketing is a waste of time) with the hope that smart people like you will challenge me with ideas of their own. I definitely learn through these exchanges, but again, I wouldn't call it marketing.
            Controversy is used all the time in marketing. I understand you use it for the conversation but it can be used to get more attention and with that attention more sales. I don't doubt with your experience you don't already know that but sometimes I make a point in case someone more inexperienced may be reading this.

            And yes, we're talking about helping first and selling second. But I guess what I'm saying is I think selling shouldn't come second. Maybe it should come 22nd. Or maybe not at all. When I'm selling, I'll do the things that will get me the biggest bang for the buck for selling -- when I'm networking or learning, I'll do the things that provide the greatest impact in those areas. And while I'll admit that the same activity can serve multiple purposes, I think selling in particular can get in the way of effective learning or networking, which again, is what I think forums are best used for.
            I also think there are better ways to making sales than pushing a signature. I just think people are under utilizing this forum because they only think in immediate sales.


            Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful response!
            Back at you and I appreciate many of your posts. Keep them coming.
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