Possible PayPal loophole to stop scammers...

39 replies
Did anyone else notice "Scammer Saturday" over the weekend?

After loosing $250 on Saturday alone from fake "unauthorized transaction" purchases...I decided to finally give PayPal a call and see what can be done.

Shame that you have to lose $1,000's on their system with the seller ALWAYS being wrong.

Here was a tip I was given by the rep...which may help some of you.

First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.

BUT...the rep I worked with told me that all I needed to do, was start sending postcards with a download link printed on them...and get delivery confirmation for the postcard...

That way, when the scammer cries wolf, you can finally take part in PayPal's Seller Protection Program...

Anybody have any other ideas...?
#loophole #paypal #scammers #stop
  • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
    Originally Posted by Jack Duncan View Post

    BUT...the rep I worked with told me that all I needed to do, was start sending postcards with a download link printed on them...and get delivery confirmation for the postcard...
    Wouldn't a letter work better? If they see the postcard, the scammer might refuse to sign for it. If it's in a letter, they won't know what it is and may be more likely to sign for it.
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    • Profile picture of the author mr2monster
      Originally Posted by Dan C. Rinnert View Post

      Wouldn't a letter work better? If they see the postcard, the scammer might refuse to sign for it. If it's in a letter, they won't know what it is and may be more likely to sign for it.
      Delivery confirmation doesn't require a signature... Certified mail does. Delivery confirmation is just basically a tracking number that says that the post office delivered it. It costs $.55 from the USPS.
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  • But how many sales will you lose if you withdraw the allure of an instant download?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
      @Dan...well, I am just talking about Delivery Confirmation...not Certified Mail...

      Just the one that is green that gives you proof the post office delivered it...it doesn't have to be signed for.

      @goddess

      Actually, they are still getting the digital download...you are just sending the postcard so that PayPal will still cover the transaction if they say it is fraudulent.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
        @asianlunatic

        Thanks for the advice...

        Actually, it's not the scammers that I am ticked at...so much as PayPal...since they won't even investigate these claims...using the "digital download" backdoor.

        Money talks...and as soon as PayPal starts having to eat the loss for these transactions, they will invest more time into plugging the holes that have been there for years.

        Unfortunately, at the moment, the only people who eat the loss are the sellers...and PayPal's standard reply is "sorry, there is nothing you can do..."
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      • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
        Originally Posted by Jack Duncan View Post

        @Dan...well, I am just talking about Delivery Confirmation...not Certified Mail...

        Just the one that is green that gives you proof the post office delivered it...it doesn't have to be signed for.
        I was thinking of the pink one, the signature confirmation.

        PayPal's seller protection policies seem a bit conflicted on this one. In some areas, they ask for delivery confirmation but on others they suggest you get a signature confirmation.
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        • Profile picture of the author intellect22
          I hear ya Jack, that has irritated me many times since I sell my products via paypal. I use DLGuard which takes down the IP Address, email, name and how many times the product was downoaded. What I started doing, and it seems to work at least 50% of the time if not more (hard to tell sometimes because it can take a month or more for paypal to 'investigate') is taking a snapshot of my DLGuard information and sending that in to paypal. This shows the buyer did indeed receive the product because it was downloaded (if they didnt download it your out of luck). I use a paint program (photoshop or something like it) to write on the snapshop poiting out all the important details.

          I have had to do this numerous times with the "unauthorized payment" or "Item not received" chargebacks (grrrr damn $10 fee!) and it seems to work well most of the time..not all the time though, but hey better than nothing!

          Cheers,

          Kevin B.
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  • Profile picture of the author Suthan M
    Jack,

    Dont sweat it. Are you willing to chop your golden goose just becouse of a few rotten eggs.

    In every industry there are scammers. You just cant run from them.

    When this has happened to me, i had wanted to start a name and shame associatiion forum of sort, where all IMers can gather and do a group Ban or something...

    But after thinking about it, i just thought that it was not worth the negativity , and i dropped the ball..
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    • Profile picture of the author garyv
      Originally Posted by asianlunatic View Post

      Jack,

      Dont sweat it. Are you willing to chop your golden goose just becouse of a few rotten eggs.

      In every industry there are scammers. You just cant run from them.

      When this has happened to me, i had wanted to start a name and shame associatiion forum of sort, where all IMers can gather and do a group Ban or something...

      But after thinking about it, i just thought that it was not worth the negativity , and i dropped the ball..

      I agree - It's not worth the effort. It's best just to plan for it, and move on gathering legitimate customers.
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      • Profile picture of the author Jack Duncan
        It's best just to plan for it, and move on gathering legitimate customers.
        You can't actually plan for it...

        And these are legitimate customers...who have figured out that PayPal always sides with the buyer...and never with the seller.

        But I do understand what you are saying...just keep moving along to find honest people...that's sound advice.

        Has anyone tested a merchant account vs. PayPal? Really tested it?

        How bad did your conversion rate drop/improve?
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        • Profile picture of the author Dan C. Rinnert
          Originally Posted by Jack Duncan View Post

          And these are legitimate customers...who have figured out that PayPal always sides with the buyer...and never with the seller.

          But I do understand what you are saying...just keep moving along to find honest people...that's sound advice.
          For "regular" digital products, like an eBook, it may be better to not spend a lot of time worrying about it and move on, unless it's a high ticket item, in which case you might want to go an extra mile.

          But, if you're selling a website, where you only have one website to sell, then perhaps this method might be worthwhile. Escrow would be better, of course, but maybe this technique could be called the "poor man's PayPal escrow."
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  • Profile picture of the author John Willer
    Yeah, wish there was something. Anything by mail would reduce the buyers from outside the country (and most are legit).

    But it's a pain in the *** when someone decides to scam you.
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  • Profile picture of the author john_kennedy
    PayPal requires a signature on transactions exceeding $250. Anything less than that must be verifiable through an on line source like USPS. Delivery Confirmation will cover you for that.

    John
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  • Profile picture of the author abelacts
    We all know that Paypal can be such an ***hole sometimes. Even though you have the postcard thing implemented, the whole process will just drain you off. If it's just a hand full of bad apples, just forget it and move on.
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Originally Posted by Jack Duncan View Post

    First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.
    That's only true for people claiming unauthorized transaction. And the ones that are fraudulently claimed unauthorized, normally dont give you time to mail the post card before the complaint is filed.

    This can be dealt with most of the time by sending proof of delivery (ip address) to the person via email with a threat of giving it to PayPal to use for geo tracking to see if its the buyers ip and complaint ip are the same.

    In my experience, they cancel the complaint most of the time.
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
        If you sell a service use an escrow service to hold funds until each side agrees that the service has been preformed to satisfaction. This way neither side can scam the other and chargebacks can't happen.

        PayPal is a good service for what it provides but if you are using it as a payment processor for selling services then your just asking for trouble.

        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

        I know this is an older thread, but I wish there
        was a way to stop these scammers, for legitimate
        sellers online.

        I've just had a user on this very forum scam me
        completely out of a few hundred dollars, $325 to
        be precise.

        This Warrior ordered copywriting services from me
        on 31 July 2009 and paid their 50% upfront ($325).

        She was delighted with my work and really excited
        at the prospect of receiving her sales copy.

        I put in the best part of 16 hours plus, researching
        her market, advising her how to optimise her website,
        carried out very detailed keyword research on her
        behalf, gave her a bunch of other SEO advice all as
        part of my overall package that I always throw in
        to over deliver on my promises...

        Lo and behold, she cancels the project claiming
        unforeseen household expenses, demands that I
        refund her her deposit (I refused based on my
        website TOS), she accepted that finally and told
        me to keep the money then ... and now 26th
        September 2009 issues an unauthorised charge
        with her credit card company.

        Paypal immediately deducts the full amount from
        my Paypal account, putting it straight into the red,
        demands that I pay them the money to bring it back
        into the black and on top of that issues me with an
        extra charge to top it all, adding insult to injury.

        So not only did this Warrior completely and utterly
        waste my time, she received my professional advice
        completely free - I don't receive a cent for it and to
        boot, even though I did my darned best to help her
        out, I'm now being charged by Paypal, extra money
        for this action that she instigated.

        It's just unbelievable the depths some people will go
        to to scam others out of money online.

        The only reason she gave for cancelling the project
        was these unrelated, unforeseen bills that had landed
        in her postal mailbox at home. Nothing to do with my
        service.

        It makes me sick that there is no recourse against this
        kind of thing and it's always the provider of goods that
        is left out of pocket, whilst the scammers get away
        with it scot free.

        It just puts you off completely doing business here.

        Certainly I'm thinking in the future that I will only
        accept orders from the UK only, at least then, in a
        situation like this, I can blast them through the Small
        Claims Court here in the UK and add on all of my extra
        expenses incurred in trying to sort the matter out,
        inconvenience etc.

        Four bloody hours it's just taken emailing all the
        correspondence off to Paypal, who I strongly suspect
        won't give a flying stuff about it.

        Basically it just feels like someone has just stolen $325
        from me.

        Personally I'm tired of timewasters on this forum, I've 3
        lots this past week to deal with. You give them your time,
        hours upon hours and all they do is to treat business here
        as a complete and utter joke.

        The last one was a top level marketer here, well respected,
        requested copywriting services directly - a dozen emails
        later doesn't act on his promises made, just an absolute
        waste of time dealing with these people.

        They drive me up the bloody wall!
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      • Profile picture of the author lakshaybehl
        Mark, I feel for you buddy. I really do.

        Simply because I have been through that once... actually twice. In both cases I ended up giving them partial refunds and taking a boatload of **** for it.

        It was then when I decided I'd only work with people who are willing to assume the risk themselves in their business and personal lives... and have funds to cover me, the service provider first... usually through Escrow.

        I sort of realize now why you need to cherry pick clients especially if you are going to be giving them your time and energy.

        You know the best part? These guys call YOU the scammer... in case they don't get a refund. Shocked me to no end initially, now just cracks me up.

        PP is really bad.

        I never used it in 2009... just MA's for online transactions and escrows for services and coaching.

        Please stop letting PP fuc3 with your life and business like they own it. Took my $900 those *******s, and they didn't even refund it back to the scammer, LOL. So at least my scammer was punished hard.

        If you must use them, please withdraw money regularly so you dont end up losing thousands.

        -Lakshay

        Originally Posted by MarkAndrews IMCopywriting View Post

        I know this is an older thread, but I wish there
        was a way to stop these scammers, for legitimate
        sellers online.

        I've just had a user on this very forum scam me
        completely out of a few hundred dollars, $325 to
        be precise.

        This Warrior ordered copywriting services from me
        on 31 July 2009 and paid their 50% upfront ($325).

        She was delighted with my work and really excited
        at the prospect of receiving her sales copy.

        I put in the best part of 16 hours plus, researching
        her market, advising her how to optimise her website,
        carried out very detailed keyword research on her
        behalf, gave her a bunch of other SEO advice all as
        part of my overall package that I always throw in
        to over deliver on my promises...

        Lo and behold, she cancels the project claiming
        unforeseen household expenses, demands that I
        refund her her deposit (I refused based on my
        website TOS), she accepted that finally and told
        me to keep the money then ... and now 26th
        September 2009 issues an unauthorised charge
        with her credit card company.

        Paypal immediately deducts the full amount from
        my Paypal account, putting it straight into the red,
        demands that I pay them the money to bring it back
        into the black and on top of that issues me with an
        extra charge to top it all, adding insult to injury.

        So not only did this Warrior completely and utterly
        waste my time, she received my professional advice
        completely free - I don't receive a cent for it and to
        boot, even though I did my darned best to help her
        out, I'm now being charged by Paypal, extra money
        for this action that she instigated.

        It's just unbelievable the depths some people will go
        to to scam others out of money online.

        The only reason she gave for cancelling the project
        was these unrelated, unforeseen bills that had landed
        in her postal mailbox at home. Nothing to do with my
        service.

        It makes me sick that there is no recourse against this
        kind of thing and it's always the provider of goods that
        is left out of pocket, whilst the scammers get away
        with it scot free.

        It just puts you off completely doing business here.

        Certainly I'm thinking in the future that I will only
        accept orders from the UK only, at least then, in a
        situation like this, I can blast them through the Small
        Claims Court here in the UK and add on all of my extra
        expenses incurred in trying to sort the matter out,
        inconvenience etc.

        Four bloody hours it's just taken emailing all the
        correspondence off to Paypal, who I strongly suspect
        won't give a flying stuff about it.

        Basically it just feels like someone has just stolen $325
        from me.

        Personally I'm tired of timewasters on this forum, I've 3
        lots this past week to deal with. You give them your time,
        hours upon hours and all they do is to treat business here
        as a complete and utter joke.

        The last one was a top level marketer here, well respected,
        requested copywriting services directly - a dozen emails
        later doesn't act on his promises made, just an absolute
        waste of time dealing with these people.

        They drive me up the bloody wall!
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  • Profile picture of the author Johnny Slater
    This is just totally wrong. PayPal does side with the seller of digital products. I know this for a fact because I have only lost 2 disputes in 3 years of selling digital products.

    If there is a dispute filed inside of paypal and you make it clear that the product is available online, that the cutomer has to log into a protected members area and that you have proof of their IP address logging into your protected area and downloading your product then you can win disputes.

    Blanket statements like this are nothing but inacurate and completely misinformed.

    Originally Posted by Jack Duncan View Post

    First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.
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    • Profile picture of the author Scripteen
      Originally Posted by Johnny Slater View Post

      This is just totally wrong. PayPal does side with the seller of digital products. I know this for a fact because I have only lost 2 disputes in 3 years of selling digital products.

      If there is a dispute filed inside of paypal and you make it clear that the product is available online, that the cutomer has to log into a protected members area and that you have proof of their IP address logging into your protected area and downloading your product then you can win disputes.

      Blanket statements like this are nothing but inacurate and completely misinformed.
      I coded a special module to log all downloads with customer name / ip and time of download. Once when I got a dispute I provided screen shot of the log and I'm sure paypal matched the ip with the ip that uses paypal account and decided to release the payment to me leaving the scammer with wet pants

      A Tip that I recommend as a seller is to use a cart that supports fraud protection like whmcs that uses maxmind fraud detection and you never worry about chargebacks and paypal claims.

      Workss for me since early days of 2007 on various projects.
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      • Profile picture of the author DAS_Matt
        Originally Posted by Scripteen View Post

        I coded a special module to log all downloads with customer name / ip and time of download. Once when I got a dispute I provided screen shot of the log and I'm sure paypal matched the ip with the ip that uses paypal account and decided to release the payment to me leaving the scammer with wet pants

        A Tip that I recommend as a seller is to use a cart that supports fraud protection like whmcs that uses maxmind fraud detection and you never worry about chargebacks and paypal claims.

        Workss for me since early days of 2007 on various projects.

        Good tip. Thanks.
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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    I think you guys are mixing apples and oranges.

    If you SELL a digital download product and someone pays via PayPal and later files a dispute trying to get a refund, PayPal will NOT HONOR IT. As soon as it's escalated to a "Dispute" rather than a "Complaint", PayPal will close it immediately. They do not deal with disputes for digital download products, period.

    OTOH, if someone pays via PayPal that's funded from a credit card, then PayPal's hands are tied if the buyer files a chargeback with the credit card issuer. PayPal has a process they are required to follow. You can appeal the chargeback, but without some pretty solid paperwork, you're not going to be successful.

    (I've experienced both issues with PayPal, and frankly, they've been very helpful with them. There's just not much they can do when it comes to chargebacks.)

    I don't think that using an escrow service would protect you against chargebacks, either. If you read the "fine print", there's probably a clause in there that says you're liable to repay the escrow service if they get hit with a chargeback from the buyer. That's because consumers have up to 6 months to dispute credit card charges, which are related in part to identity theft issues.

    One online biller has a particularly "nasty" policy (from the consumer's standpoint), but it's great from a seller's perspective -- CCBill.com. Their Terms of Service make it virtually impossible for anybody to succeed with a chargeback because you basically give them the right to file a lien or judgement against you in the amount of the chargeback plus legal and other fees. (You can imagine the online services they cater to...)

    In order to protect yourself fully, you need a written agreement that sets forth the various obligations of each party, including situations like this. I'd include a clause that says something like, once I've delivered anything to the client, they agree to payment in full. And if a credit card is used for payment, they agree that if a chargeback is submitted, they agree to reimburse me in full for the outstanding amount within a small time-frame, including all fees and related charges. They also agree that failure to honor any of their payment agreements will allow me to file a judgement in any court and submit it to a collection agency. I'd also throw in some stiff penalties.

    Having a contract like this will not prevent someone from filing a chargeback. But if they DID, I'd send them a copy of the agreement saying they have 10 days to pay in full, or reverse the chargeback; otherwise, you'll file a judgement against them. Since they've already agreed to your terms, it's virtually impossible for them to dispute in court. Have a lawyer draft it up in such a way that you can file for summary judgement without any problems.

    In this particular instance, you could get a lawyer to write a letter to the other party threatening to report them to several places for committing credit card fraud -- the chargeback form is an affidavit and if she told you she was having trouble with her bills, but she filed an affidavit citing another reason, there might be some grounds for legal action against her. It's like somebody screaming "Fire!" when there wasn't even any smoke. Fire Departments are not amused. Neither are credit card companies. It all depends how nasty you want to get.

    -David
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  • Profile picture of the author Roy Carter
    Big Mike has it right. i.e. "I'm not wasting $100 of my time to win back $10"

    Really that's what it's all about. It is frustrating when you've delivered a legitimate product or service and someone scams you for a refund and I can understand Mark Andrew's position.

    I had the opposite thing happen when I saw a female warrior on the forum saying she needed to earn money by the weekend to pay her rent and asking for work. I asked her for a quote for some small project and she quoted $25. I then asked her how much she needed to pay her rent and she told me she was $100 short.

    The upshot was that I sent her $100 via Paypal. $25 to do the initial work and an advance against future work of $75.00 so that she could get her rent paid.

    I had to push and cajole her to do the initial work and then when I asked her to do the next small job she did not respond. Again I had to chase her (my time used again) and she said she would get the job done. Result? Despite chaising agin I never heard from her after that.

    I considered trying to get the money back but then reasoned as Big Mike said that it was just not worth my time to do so. Put it down to experience and moved on.
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  • Profile picture of the author SageSound
    If you're talking about $50, or even $10, I agree with Mike.

    But ... if it's hundreds, it's worth a letter from my lawyer. (PrePaid Legal is great for that kind of stuff!)

    If it's thousands, I'll get a contract written up FIRST.
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  • Profile picture of the author dsmpublishing
    Hi guys

    sometimes it can work on its own merit a while ago i purchased some design work on the wf and they didnt deliver and paypal did actually refund me even though it was virtual goods.

    Lots of other people complained too so my feeling on it is that if people stick together and complain they will do something about it.

    The biggest flaw i find with paypal is the record delivery carry on for example if i was to sell clothes on ebay and didnt send it by recorded the person could complain and i could do nothing as certificate of posting isnt accepted. So if you sell tangiable goods please get recorded delivery or you could end up out of pocket.

    kind regards


    sam
    X
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  • Profile picture of the author simba999
    I agree, I HATE SCAMMERS FULL STOP. I hate when people say they are great at something and you later find through searching and learning about them, that THEY ACTUALLY ADMIT THEY SUCK at what they are charging you TONS of money for and saying they are a professional when they are not...

    I always provide a 100% money back guarantee, and feel anyone that has a GOOD REPUTATION online should also do the same. I also feel if you have a GOOD REPUTATION online, you usually provide a privacy policy, which I do as well. I would never share the info about a customer with anyone else, ever. Its PRIVATE...after all (privacy policy, duh).

    If a customer is unhappy in any way, I just give a refund...especially if its been only 1 day for a service you couldn't begin for a few days ...I'm usually always working on someone else's project as well...and thats what I told this person too....couldn't begin for a few days!

    If they did not RECEIVE Their product, AT ALL, of course...they should get a refund if they asked for it...its only fair.

    I also always approach vendors directly when I have any problems. I talk it out w/ them FIRST....and if they are being EXTREMELY unreasonable, and will not provide a 100% hassle free guarantee and refund as they said they would, then I have no choice but to pursue matters in other ways.

    Hey, and if they buy something and want a refund within say only 1 day...especially if it is a service related service that I could't even start for a few days (and told them so)...then when they asked me for a refund a DAY later...duh...why the heck wouldn't I give a refund. makes sense...

    and the last thing I would do to a customer is try to upsell them on 50 other services I may also provide...that they did not want, ask for, or need...I would FOCUS on giving them the 1 service they asked for...and doing that really well.

    But thats just me...thats how I would handle it...

    But I feel if the customer is nice enough to approach me directly prior to taking up matters in other ways, I always try to bend over to help, especially if its only a day after payment for a service that I couldnt begin for a few days.

    Interesting stuff...but I agree, I HATE SCAMMERS FULL STOP!
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  • Profile picture of the author yourreviewer
    Do folks feel that this issue is more prevalent in the IM than other markets? I have been selling products in the Health Niche and I am yet to encounter any problem. Having said that these are people who email me asking me what 'Confirm your subscription by clicking on the link' means and what they should do.
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    • Profile picture of the author Robyn8243
      There is no foolproof way to protect yourself, and when it comes to digital downloads, especially if you are offering some refund period, in many cases it is not worth wasting the time to get pennies.

      However, if you are offering services, you might want to consider adding a simple contract before you actually conduct any work.

      When I was in direct sales, selling a $3,000 product, we always had clients who were paying by credit card fax a copy of an agreement that clarified what they were buying, agreeing not to institute a charge back, reiterating that they were authorizing the charge, etc. I was told that the company always won any chargeback dispute where the agreement was sent.

      I was asked to do that myself recently when I was opening an advertising account. Had to fax a copy of my license as well for id.

      Whether or not it would hold up in a court, having someone sign a document agreeing not to chargeback, agreeing that any dispute will be handled in a specific way, agreeing they will pay your legal fees if you have to bring legal action to collect your fees, will definitely make them think twice before trying to take advantage of you.

      If you are providing services that require a big chunk of time, the extra step might be worth it.

      Robyn
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  • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
    Jack...

    I've always done this. As an example, I sold a product for $473.
    I provided instant download AND I mailed them a copy on CD with
    the delivery confirmation.

    I did it all through Pay Pal. My only guarantee was if the product
    was defective I would replace it.

    I sold well over $100K worth of this product and had less than 10
    requests for refund. I denied every request because the buyers admitted
    to me via email that the product worked 100% as advertised.

    In each case the buyer opened a Pay Pal dispute. In every case I
    simply replied that the dispute was not reviewable per PP policies on
    physical products that had been delivered. I provided the USPS tracking
    code number in my response.

    In every case Pay Pal denied their claim and closed the dispute.

    Tsnyder
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    If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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    • Profile picture of the author Scripteen
      Originally Posted by Tsnyder View Post

      Jack...

      I've always done this. As an example, I sold a product for $473.
      I provided instant download AND I mailed them a copy on CD with
      the delivery confirmation.

      I did it all through Pay Pal. My only guarantee was if the product
      was defective I would replace it.

      I sold well over $100K worth of this product and had less than 10
      requests for refund. I denied every request because the buyers admitted
      to me via email that the product worked 100% as advertised.

      In each case the buyer opened a Pay Pal dispute. In every case I
      simply replied that the dispute was not reviewable per PP policies on
      physical products that had been delivered. I provided the USPS tracking
      code number in my response.

      In every case Pay Pal denied their claim and closed the dispute.

      Tsnyder
      What if he gets the instant download then denies to sign the delivery receipt? Does this still mark item as delivered in paypal delivery verification backend?
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      • Profile picture of the author Tsnyder
        Originally Posted by Scripteen View Post

        What if he gets the instant download then denies to sign the delivery receipt? Does this still mark item as delivered in paypal delivery verification backend?
        As Jack stated above their is no signature required. Delivery confirmation
        is simply that. USPS provides a tracking number and affixes a green label
        to the package. The label is scanned at every step along the way and can
        be tracked at usps.com

        The charge for this service is 55 cents.

        Tsnyder
        Signature
        If you knew what I know you'd be doing what I do...
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  • Profile picture of the author Bankys
    Hi guys I just came across this post and I wish to put in my contribution. Two ways I think we can combat user scammers is to make the email bot autorespond or send confirmation before downloading. The email as well can be set to request for email opened reciept.... i.e if the email was opened a receipt is generated to indicate that the email was opened buy the recipient and date stamped sent back to the sender of the email. This can be used as proof of download of the digital product as you should always keep a copy of all emails sent out.
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  • Profile picture of the author Arbitrager
    Originally Posted by Jack Duncan View Post

    Did anyone else notice "Scammer Saturday" over the weekend?

    After loosing $250 on Saturday alone from fake "unauthorized transaction" purchases...I decided to finally give PayPal a call and see what can be done.

    Shame that you have to lose $1,000's on their system with the seller ALWAYS being wrong.

    Here was a tip I was given by the rep...which may help some of you.

    First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.

    BUT...the rep I worked with told me that all I needed to do, was start sending postcards with a download link printed on them...and get delivery confirmation for the postcard...

    That way, when the scammer cries wolf, you can finally take part in PayPal's Seller Protection Program...

    Anybody have any other ideas...?
    Mmm. Funny situation huh. Every time I got scammed when I buy digital products, I always lost my money in the dispute process. Paypal always said something like they cant do anything for me since it is digital and there is no way to proof that the seller is a scammer.

    The postcards strategy might works. Those people who scammed me in the past even use some fake delivery confirmation and it works as well.
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  • Profile picture of the author Robert Puddy
    Originally Posted by Jack Duncan View Post

    Did anyone else notice "Scammer Saturday" over the weekend?

    After loosing $250 on Saturday alone from fake "unauthorized transaction" purchases...I decided to finally give PayPal a call and see what can be done.

    Shame that you have to lose $1,000's on their system with the seller ALWAYS being wrong.

    Here was a tip I was given by the rep...which may help some of you.

    First, you should know that if you sell digital products, PayPal will NEVER side with you...because their protection policy does not cover digital products.

    BUT...the rep I worked with told me that all I needed to do, was start sending postcards with a download link printed on them...and get delivery confirmation for the postcard...

    That way, when the scammer cries wolf, you can finally take part in PayPal's Seller Protection Program...

    Anybody have any other ideas...?
    Must be a just US paypal thing, because i never lose dispute by telling them its a digital download.

    My software stores their IP address and the number of times they logged in, so i have proof they had access to the product, another reason to use membership software to deliver all your products, if there is evidence of logging in then paypal excepts that as proof they got their product.

    Robert
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  • Profile picture of the author milo_pl
    Sending postcard does not prove the delivery...it's better to send the CD with the program, if anything. Or just implement online protection system and if they do a refund, ban their license.
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    • Profile picture of the author TonyDavis
      Originally Posted by milo_pl View Post

      Sending postcard does not prove the delivery...it's better to send the CD with the program, if anything. Or just implement online protection system and if they do a refund, ban their license.
      I agree with the inexpensive CD route... I'd spend a couple of dollars to ship a CD rather than lose 20, 30, 100, 1000 dollars b/c they claimed they didn't get it. Food for thought!

      Tony
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  • Profile picture of the author danielmcclure
    Just as a note it is quite possible to win disputes/chargebacks with Paypal. I have simply sent archived copy of the sales page and email/download log from time of transaction. Only problem is that it took me 5 minutes to gather data and them about 3 months to respond so by the time I had won, the held money had gone down in the exchange rate considerably anyway. The problems of guilty until proven innocent but pretty much unavoidable online it seems.
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    • Profile picture of the author Krish2007
      I also sell Digital Products online and I provide Paypal/Alertpay/Solidtrustpay/Strictpay/Liberty Reserve Buttons on my Sites.

      Most people buy Digital Products from me using Paypal Button.

      I never had any problems, because I don't give Download Link on Return URL (Successful URL). I send the Product after verifying the payment.

      Krish
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  • Profile picture of the author garyv
    If you use kunaki for cd delivery, then kunaki will provide you w/ a tracking number for every item. I've been able to resolve most disputes like this by providing paypal w/ the tracking number from kunaki.
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