Allen - Tornado Profit System?

64 replies
Hey guys,

I see allen promoting this new Tornado system in the forum anyone got it yet
and is it a subscription type of system, where we pay a monthly fee to use it?

Do we host it on our own server or is it hosted on someone else severs?

Just thought I'd ask, didn't see anywhere on the site to ask a question.

--David
#allen #profit #system #tornado
  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    I looked at the letter, watched the video. It's $29.xx per month.

    I think it runs on their server. Pretty rudimentary selling
    argument - even though what it does is cool it doesn't appear
    to do anything but OTOs with PayPal from their sales message.

    Heavy Metal music in the second half of the video was
    a turn-off to me (even though when I was younger it might
    not have been).
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    Yeah i thought it said subscription at the end but at the middle it says this:

    How much is it?
    Remember, InfusionSoft is the big kid on the block and people are gladly handing them thousands in setup fees and high monthly payments to do this kind of customer management to increase their profits. But only those who can afford the very expensive programming fees it would cost to make InfusionSoft do what Tornado already does.
    Tornado costs $29.95. That's it!


    Which made me wonder...I do like the idea behind it but would much rather have
    an app running off my own server...


    --David
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    • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
      Yeah, if they were selling a script instead of continuity
      I'd be all over it. As written the offer is confusing
      because of exactly what you said.

      I even went through their process as far as I could
      without entering a paypal password... no upsell,
      which surprised me because that's what it does.

      I know whoever made the product is going to read
      this thread - so here's my advice: get your offer CLEAR.
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      • Profile picture of the author admin
        Administrator
        Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

        Yeah, if they were selling a script instead of continuity
        I'd be all over it. As written the offer is confusing
        because of exactly what you said.

        I even went through their process as far as I could
        without entering a paypal password... no upsell,
        which surprised me because that's what it does.

        I know whoever made the product is going to read
        this thread - so here's my advice: get your offer CLEAR.

        Loren it's not called a continuity, it's called a subscription to a service. Like hosting, AOL, a phone, etc etc etc...

        Not sure what all this complaining is about...
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  • Profile picture of the author Preben Frenning
    Agreed. I also found it a bit confusing, as it first seemed like a noe-time payment, but after further reading it wasn't.

    I also wondered if they had an upsell, and it surprises me as well that they don't!
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  • Profile picture of the author AmyBrown
    Watching the video, the magic doesn't happen until the first product is purchased. So...if you haven't bought it you won't have seen an upsell.
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  • Profile picture of the author Loren Woirhaye
    Well I think the main issue is the site reads:

    "Tornado costs $29.95. That's it!"

    Which isn't the same as saying "Tornado costs $29.95. Per month!"


    That's a distinction some buyers will make and others won't, no doubt.

    To me it looks either sly or sloppy.
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    • Profile picture of the author The Pension Guy
      Originally Posted by Loren Woirhaye View Post

      "Tornado costs $29.95. That's it!"

      Which isn't the same as saying "Tornado costs $29.95. Per month!"


      That's a distinction some buyers will make and others won't, no doubt.

      To me it looks either sly or sloppy.
      I agree. Earlier I was wondering about the same: couldn't figure out whether it was an one time payment or subscription because the sales letter is confusing. Sometimes I suspect it is my fault if I can't understand what the salespage says, so now I am glad I wasn't the only one who got confused.
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  • Profile picture of the author Eric Stanley
    I'd be all over it too if it was a single purchase item for the script. It seems unnecessary for it to be a subscription product. It sounds like a great script though!
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  • Profile picture of the author GarrieWilson
    Loren,

    On the order button, it says per month.

    But I would pass on this for two reasons.

    1. If you sell digital goods. Yes it can be used for them but the billing agreement screen says SHIPPING address. So I think you will lose ALL complaints.

    2. There will be a self-hosted option within a few weeks. Always is with this type of script/service. I'm sure the first will be $97 - $127 but then another will be out and it will be half price. Then within 6 months, there will be a MRR one.

    Of course you could join until it's release.

    It's not that complicated of a system.

    Garrie
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  • Profile picture of the author summerm
    Does Tornado support Paypal's "Website Payments Pro" feature of being able to accept credit cards directly on your website (i.e., customer does not need a paypal account) instead of requiring the customer to log into Paypal?

    How does Tornado integrate with affiliate management software?

    Does Tornado have any competition that anyone is aware of?
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    • Profile picture of the author Jack Humphrey
      I'll get William in here to answer the technical stuff. I wrote the copy, so I can address that part.

      I'm not Michel Fortin, and I'm still waiting for my masterpiece sales letter. But everything seemed pretty clear for a launch. Warriors are the first to hear about it, so it's brand new and copy gets updated based on feedback like this.

      I guess the questions on price might be valid if it was expensive or there was anything else that did this (William is the first to figure out how to even do up-cross-and downsells with Paypal. Infusion and the others aren't even there yet.)

      And for the money, nothing comes close - that was intentional. Regular people haven't had any access to this kind of thing until now, either financially or without the rocket science degree.

      Reason for the monthly fee is that selling software that will want frequent upgrades and new features is better, for us, on a monthly basis. If we go with hosted, we have to setup a paid upgrade system which would have taken more time to launch.

      Someone was going to do this at some point and being first to launch is more important than anything else.

      But the bottom line is, if you have a one product offer right now and you can increase the avg cust value by easily adding up and downsells that don't require multiple payment forms, we could have charged a ton more and it would be a good buy. And still under pricing the full shopping cart systems which don't even have Paypal-ability yet.

      Thanks for the feedback on copy. I'll make sure to clear up some things in the coming days.

      In th end, I knew Warriors would ultimately "get it" though without having spent another few days tweaking the letter.
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      • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
        I guess the questions on price might be valid if it was expensive or there was anything else that did this (William is the first to figure out how to even do up-cross-and downsells with Paypal. Infusion and the others aren't even there yet.)
        Mike, no one here is really talking about price or whether William is the first as you say to do this, it is just a matter of time b4 every Tom, Dick and Harry is doing it better and getting it to work with other membership scripts out there...

        The point I was making is the fact that the salesletter was a bit unclear on pricing and it made it sound like it was going to be a oneoff payment and then later it sounds like a monthly thing...and if the buyer was going to host it hem or herself...

        We see this as a major breakthrough for us paypal users and offcourse it is welcome...As a techhead I do understand how it working and think it is awesome...well done William

        --David
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  • Profile picture of the author Naveed Peerzade
    Do we have an option to buy it one time? if we do not want any updates?

    Does it work with other memebership scripts like amember etc?


    Thanx.
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  • Profile picture of the author Jesus Perez
    ^^ Agreed. There needs to be a better FAQ. I have no idea how this integrates with DLGuard, SimpleMemberPro, GetResponse, Clickbank memberships, etc. It's just not clicking with me yet.

    Hosted is a turn off for me, too. I like to buy my stuff and "keep" my data unless placing it on someone else's servers is necessary (back-ups). In this case, the script doesn't appear to require a hosted environment.

    I would have been happier with a "buy now" and "pay for yearly support/upgrades" pricing strategy similar to DLGuard.
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  • Profile picture of the author Naveed Peerzade
    I did a bit research and I guess there are some pricing limitation that we will have on upsell depending on the technique he uses..

    eg. if he uses preauthorization then we have limitation that you can reauthorize for up to 115% of the originally authorized amount

    So if you are selling $1 something on the frontend you can have upsell of $1.15
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    It might be he is using the PayPal API to do all of this really...but
    what ever he is using it doesn't matter, what really matters is the
    way the salesletter was unclear...

    The man did a fantastic job on getting this working, I know a few people
    that tried to get this done and they ended up abandoning their projects.

    --David
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    Hey Everybody,

    Let me start off by saying thank you for all the feedback; critical and non-critical alike. Truly good software can not be developed without feedback from the marketplace and that feedback implemented.

    It seems that one of the bigger current issues here is the fact that Tornado is a hosted app. Jack hinted towards the fact that this was done intentionally, and it was (initially) for a multitude of reasons.

    • Tornado was originally conceived for those that are not comfortable with installing scripts on their websites. Not to mention those without the skillset and/or not enough start up capital to warrant hiring a developer.
    • Rapid development & updates is better facilitated through a controlled environment. The concept of upsells/downsells/cross-sells isn't new, but this particular functionality through PayPal™ is fairly new; which means things can change at the drop of a dime. PayPal™ themselves changed their environment about 4x in the middle of Tornado's development. Making sure every distributed copy is up to date would be not only a development nightmare but an operations cost bomb, as well. (That being understood, we do, however, have a standalone version in the wings.)
    • SSL Certificate needed for backend communications. SSL Certificates, (that actually work and don't take an Associates degree in Information Technology to install and maintain), are not easy to come by. Nor are they cheap. Yet, the only way a system like Tornado to function as it should is through an environment that is maintained under the security of an SSL Certificate. We wanted to eliminate this barrier of entry for people wanting to do business on a higher level online.
    • We wanted to bring it to market, ASAP. Of course, being first to market is a major desire for any business; and we're no different.


    Originally Posted by AlexNavas

    It looks like a cool system which I am considering except for one thing...

    They have to go through the entire process before paying. Anyone can bail after seeing all the offers without even buying the first offering.
    Shopping Cart Abandonment is one of the biggest problems of ANY eCommerce system on the Internet, today. Actually there are NO, (none that I'm aware of), scripts or systems that can help prevent shopping cart abandonment.

    Yet, we thought about that; which is why there's an Abandoned Sale function built into the system. (It was a pretty late development so it hadn't made it to the sales page, yet).

    Basically, the system will email you the Name & eMail address of everyone that abandons your sales funnel midstream. Thus, giving you the ability to follow up with them at your convenience.

    Originally Posted by summerm

    Does Tornado support Paypal's "Website Payments Pro" feature of being able to accept credit cards directly on your website (i.e., customer does not need a paypal account) instead of requiring the customer to log into Paypal?

    How does Tornado integrate with affiliate management software?

    Does Tornado have any competition that anyone is aware of?
    Tornado works slightly differently than Website Payments Pro where as it allows the merchant to totally bypass any notion of need for a merchant account. Website Payments Pro still requires certain merchant account functionality; which is why PayPal™ charges for it.

    Alternatively, setting your PayPal™ account's options to PayPal™ Account Optional should/would enable you to give your Customer's the option of creating a PayPal™ account or not; (except in the case of a Subscription, of course.)

    Originally Posted by Naveed Peerzade

    Do we have an option to buy it one time? if we do not want any updates?

    Does it work with other memebership scripts like amember etc?

    Thanx.
    As stated above, there is a (higher priced) standalone version in development. Yet, we don't feel it should be released until we're absolutely sure that any subsequent PayPal™ updates will not alter Tornado's immediate functionality.

    As for working with other Membership scripts and/or shopping cart software, yes. Tornado was purposely built rather open ended so that it can work with other scripts on the market that do what Tornado purposely does not do.

    Each Tornado account holder has the ability to send transaction data to their respective scripts in two separate ways; (both of which can be used in conjuction, as well).

    Through their Thank You Page; as (for those that opt to build their own Thank You Pages) Tornado will send Transaction ID and indication of each product/service bought, per transaction.

    (i.e.: http://thankyou_page?transID=##&prod...d2=##&prod3=##)

    Through the PayPal™ IPN feature; which would incorporate the need of a developer OR instructions of how to receive IPN data by your respective Membership and/or Shoppingcart script(s).

    Tornado allows you to set your own IPN URL to anything you want; thus allowing you to capture transaction data directly to your site from PayPal™.

    For those that are not familiar with, don't have developer funds available for or just don't want to muck with IPN scripting.. Tornado has an option for you, as well.

    Originally Posted by Naveed Peerzade

    I did a bit research and I guess there are some pricing limitation that we will have on upsell depending on the technique he uses..

    eg. if he uses preauthorization then we have limitation that you can reauthorize for up to 115% of the originally authorized amount

    So if you are selling $1 something on the frontend you can have upsell of $1.15
    Without giving away our mission critical data; we took care of this and there are no limitations, whatsoever in that regard.

    Hopefully this answers the questions posed thus far, sufficiently. Please feel free to continue to offer up your feedback; as it is more than welcomed.

    Peace, Love & Prosperity..
    tecHead
    (William)

    P.S.: Thanks David; appreciate the kudos.
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    William, will there be room for using or entering your personal
    autoresponder like aweber, emailaces, prosender...

    Like yourself I do understand the issues with paypal and their
    updating or fixing stuff all the time, I have an app that works
    off of their API which is briliant...I'm would be much more
    interested seing this badboy first hand, do you have a working
    demo setup we can test...

    --David
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by David_Thompson View Post

      William, will there be room for using or entering your personal
      autoresponder like aweber, emailaces, prosender...

      Like yourself I do understand the issues with paypal and their
      updating or fixing stuff all the time, I have an app that works
      off of their API which is briliant...I'm would be much more
      interested seing this badboy first hand, do you have a working
      demo setup we can test...

      --David
      Hi David,

      Tornado is already set so that you can incorporate a squeeze page; all you need do is set your autoresponder "thank you for subscribing" page to the first page of your Tornado sales funnel. Beauty in motion.

      Actually, the Tornado sales process IS the working demo.

      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    I was thinking about backend demo admin stuff.

    I see the selling process or rather I know the
    selling process, the backend inner workings...

    --David
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by David_Thompson View Post

      I was thinking about backend demo admin stuff.

      I see the selling process or rather I know the
      selling process, the backend inner workings...

      --David
      David,

      No, not at the moment; there is no demo of the Member's Area. However, the video shows you pretty much what the back end looks like and how it functions.

      I'll look into how I might want to implement a backend preview; as live demos can become rather troublesome with certain individuals, (present company not included), having less scruples than most.

      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author LB
    C'mon folks.

    $29 a month is about $360 per year. If your 1 click upsell isn't adding at least that much to your pockets you're doing it wrong.

    Additionally, a good SSL cert runs about $100 annually and is a pain to install and not all hosting packages work with a SSL setup.

    It's good to discuss the virtues of a product, but I'm kind of confused why the complaints about the monthly cost.
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    ok bro

    --David
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    • Profile picture of the author Tom B
      Banned
      Maybe it is just me but this looks friggin cool. I think this will make us a lot more than $30 bones a month. Man think about adding this to RAP. Katching!

      Yeah, I am a little excited about this if you can't tell.
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    Just to clarify something.

    One of the main reasons we brought this to the Warriors first; (and especially via Allen himself); was due to the built-in 35% affiliate system. Yeah, that's 'residual'.

    3 = free

    Just thought I'd make that clear.

    PLP,
    William
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    So William, so you guys have an affiliate system setup?

    Nice when are you open it up?

    --David
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by David_Thompson View Post

      So William, so you guys have an affiliate system setup?

      Nice when are you open it up?

      --David
      I was informed by Marketing, (Jack), that we'll be opening it up to the general public whence he returns from London, (next week).

      Right now, its only available to Members.

      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    K, I'll keep my eyes out for it, as I said it looks like
    an awesome addition to any web business that uses
    paypal...

    --David
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  • Profile picture of the author JVManna
    I just watched the demo video. It looks like it does what it does really well -- minimizing the barriers for customers who use PayPal. I think it tad unfair to compare this product by itself to the likes of other full-featured shopping cart/CRM solutions available on the market.

    Seeing solutions like this work so easily for marketers definitely helps us consider new ideas and ways to make our software better. We plan to have long-term support for PayPal and better 1-click-upsell implementations soon. (They were voted on by customers as an important idea for us to undertake.)

    That said, I am curious about the success/sustainability of this app for marketers. That is, are disputes/chargebacks handled well, does it lead to high customer satisfaction, etc. Only time will tell and will vary between marketer to marketer, methinks.

    ~Joe
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by JVManna View Post

      I just watched the demo video. It looks like it does what it does really well -- minimizing the barriers for customers who use PayPal. I think it tad unfair to compare this product by itself to the likes of other full-featured shopping cart/CRM solutions available on the market.

      Seeing solutions like this work so easily for marketers definitely helps us consider new ideas and ways to make our software better. We plan to have long-term support for PayPal and better 1-click-upsell implementations soon. (They were voted on by customers as an important idea for us to undertake.)

      That said, I am curious about the success/sustainability of this app for marketers. That is, are disputes/chargebacks handled well, does it lead to high customer satisfaction, etc. Only time will tell and will vary between marketer to marketer, methinks.

      ~Joe
      Hi Joe!

      Definitely glad to see you.

      #1 - Thanks for the kudos; its much appreciated.

      #2 - Its very interesting how you've managed to answer your own curiosity question.

      You said: "That said, I am curious about the success/sustainability of this app for marketers. That is, are disputes/chargebacks handled well, does it lead to high customer satisfaction, etc."

      But first said: "Seeing solutions like this work so easily for marketers definitely helps us consider new ideas and ways to make our software better."

      ... which is actually the answer to your curiosity; as Tornado merely acts as a conduit between Merchant and the PayPal system. The processor is still PayPal, therefore the actual transaction will always be subject to their mechanisms that are already in place.

      Tornado operates well within their guidelines and TOS and we've purposely made the code unavailable for manipulation, therefore such things as chargebacks and/or disputes will be handled just like any other transaction conducted through their system; (which really has nothing to do with Tornado).

      Actually, integration between Tornado, InfusionSoft's API and PayPal is a part of our next update.

      Thanks again for the drop by..
      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author 4Highflyers
    Jack/William,

    Nicely done!

    Do you run this on a dedicated server? That's the only thing I'd want to know about
    in relation to it being a hosted service that my actual sales system relies on.

    Thanks for any info,
    Adam
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by 4Highflyers View Post

      Jack/William,

      Nicely done!

      Do you run this on a dedicated server? That's the only thing I'd want to know about
      in relation to it being a hosted service that my actual sales system relies on.

      Thanks for any info,
      Adam
      Hey Adam

      Thanks, dude!

      Yeah, I made sure the host provider housing this puppy was up to par. They're one of the best I've dealt with; (and that's saying something since I've been at this since '97 - geez, I'm getting old!)

      I pretty much drilled them to the point that they roll their eyes when they see me coming, now. Their specialty is hosting big bandwidth eaters and they have redundancy up the wazoo.

      Also, Tornado was built from the ground up to limit the need for resources; as we already knew that PayPal will sometimes just crap out on you with no warning, (that we can't control -- but they've been progressively getting better and better with that).

      Thanks for the questions.. keep 'em coming
      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    Kickbutt looking app and from what i can see William is doing
    his part which is being here answering our questions, that shows
    a really good sign...customer support should be awesome as well
    as for getting updates...

    --David
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  • Profile picture of the author Naveed Peerzade
    One more question... here is the situation

    1.. Member signup as silver membership (he see paypal site to login and authorize us) and he pay the silver fees say $9/month and a recurring profile created so he will be charged $9 every month

    2.. After a week he decide to upgrade to Gold i.e. $20/month

    Will this work the same way i.e. without taking him to paypal?

    OR do we need to show our upsell downsells only during the first time purchase?


    Thanx


    Naveed
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by Naveed Peerzade View Post

      One more question... here is the situation

      1.. Member signup as silver membership (he see paypal site to login and authorize us) and he pay the silver fees say $9/month and a recurring profile created so he will be charged $9 every month

      2.. After a week he decide to upgrade to Gold i.e. $20/month

      Will this work the same way i.e. without taking him to paypal?

      OR do we need to show our upsell downsells only during the first time purchase?

      Thanx

      Naveed
      Hi again, Naveed..

      Good to see you thinking!

      However, because Tornado is built specifically with a "hit it and quit" type functionality.. a week later Tornado wouldn't be in the picture anymore.

      Actually, as soon as the transaction has been completed; (whether you're offering/presenting an upsell/downsell/cross-sell or not); that transaction is no longer connected to Tornado. Therefore, your scenario of one week later would require some other scripting/programming.

      Tornado won't be implementing that type of extended functionality until Version 2; (shameless plug); which is pegged for release in late August '09. Within the PayPal guidelines, you'll be able to update subscriptions without having to cancel the current subscription and start a new one, (like pretty much everyone needs to do now).

      Hope this answers your question, adequately.

      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author Ronnie Nijmeh
    This sounds incredible, I have to say. A couple of questions:

    1. How does this integrate with Amember? Easy? Possible?

    2. I know you say that you're within the Paypal terms of service and guidelines, but what systems are in place in case Paypal pulls the plug, changes something, or (worst case) shuts down accounts?

    Thanks

    Ronnie
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by Ronnie Nijmeh View Post

      This sounds incredible, I have to say. A couple of questions:

      1. How does this integrate with Amember? Easy? Possible?

      2. I know you say that you're within the Paypal terms of service and guidelines, but what systems are in place in case Paypal pulls the plug, changes something, or (worst case) shuts down accounts?

      Thanks

      Ronnie
      Hello Ronnie,

      Thanks for the kudos!

      1. How does this integrate with Amember? Easy? Possible?

      Its definitely possible; as, if I'm not mistaken, aMember has facilities built in to accept PayPal IPN posts. I haven't had the chance to fully investigate aMember, as of yet; but Tornado was built from the ground up to be scalable for such things.

      Right now, you can set your IPN URL to anything you want as well as implement your own Thank You Page; which Tornado posts to with TransactionID and variables containing the Item Number of each product purchased through your sales funnel, per transaction.

      2. I know you say that you're within the Paypal terms of service and guidelines, but what systems are in place in case Paypal pulls the plug, changes something, or (worst case) shuts down accounts?

      Tornado is not directly affiliated with PayPal, therefore we have nothing to do with their implementation of their TOS; we only follow their rules.

      We really don't see them "pulling the plug" on anything we're doing; as they've been pretty commited to their end of development for more than a year now.

      We would also have nothing to do with PayPal "shutting down" any account; as we're not facilitating anyone to do anything through our system that violates their TOS. If an account is shut down, it would be the responsibility of said merchant, (and would more than likely be the fault of said merchant for violating some clause in the PayPal TOS -- which is 99% of the time the reason behind PayPal shutting down an account).

      PayPal is in the "business" of running transactions for merchants and individuals. They do this internationally. Just like there are viruses being constantly created by individuals with little to no scruples; there are those that go out of their way to fraud people. It is only logical that PayPal is strict when it comes to anything that could be and/or looks like fraud. Yet, at the same time, they would be pretty much shooting themselves in the foot if they were to randomly choose innocent merchants to shut down -- wouldn't they? With the most powerful advertising being word of mouth on the Internet, no matter how big they are, they'd wind up going out of business fairly quickly.

      Yet, they've been doing business and growing in customer base rather strongly since 2001. Even the big boy merchants are implementing PayPal as an alternative payment method, now.

      So, as long as you're not doing anything to violate their TOS; (which isn't that hard to not do); then you have no worries of them ever shutting down your account.

      Our main business account has been active with them since 2001; we've never had a problem with them -- nor them with us. That account has been involved in nothing but IM since its inception.

      Hope this answers your questions, adequately.
      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author summerm
    Thanks for all the information!

    So my understanding is that Tornado DOES currently have the option of having customer's enter their credit card info directly (as long as you set Paypal Account Optional). Could you please confirm my understanding is correct?

    Would Tornado allow you to set a flowchart --various branches of the sales funnel, depending for example on whether the user paid with paypal account or without the paypal account (so you could offer subscriptions to those with a paypal account, and something else to the others)?


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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by summerm View Post

      Thanks for all the information!
      So my understanding is that Tornado DOES currently have the option of having customer's enter their credit card info directly (as long as you set Paypal Account Optional). Could you please confirm my understanding is correct?
      Well, I thought I could; but I'm not going to give you false information, so I can't; (confirm, that is).

      It seems that PayPal has decided to change directions, again; see, this is why we are only offering a hosted version right now.

      They are currently only offering this functionality through their most primary website payment option.
      Originally Posted by summerm View Post

      Would Tornado allow you to set a flowchart --various branches of the sales funnel, depending for example on whether the user paid with paypal account or without the paypal account (so you could offer subscriptions to those with a paypal account, and something else to the others)?
      Yet, you bring up a very interesting scenario here.

      No, the current 'simple' version of Tornado does not have this functionality. We will more than likely compensate for the situation above with updates allowing similar functionality that you're asking about, here.

      Essentially, there will be the simple Tornado version, (on sale now), for the purposes of incorporating one-click upsell/downsell/cross-sell sales funnels into your existing sales solution... and the extended Tornado version, (which you'll see the likes of come August '09 -- will have a standalone option and will carry a higher price tag).

      Hope this answers your questions..
      PLP,
      William
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      • Profile picture of the author summerm
        Hello William,

        Thanks again for the answers to my questions!

        Does Tornado Extended Version have plans to integrate with Paypal's website payment services so direct credit card can be supported? Please?

        If you support branching in your sales funnels, you'll be unstoppable! This feature is critical in many applications that, for example, only upsell some super expensive item to people who have chosen to purchase all 2 previous upsells, but don't bother to try upselling to a person who hasn't selected any upsell and clearly just wants to check out.

        Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

        Well, I thought I could; but I'm not going to give you false information, so I can't; (confirm, that is).

        It seems that PayPal has decided to change directions, again; see, this is why we are only offering a hosted version right now.

        They are currently only offering this functionality through their most primary website payment option.


        Yet, you bring up a very interesting scenario here.

        No, the current 'simple' version of Tornado does not have this functionality. We will more than likely compensate for the situation above with updates allowing similar functionality that you're asking about, here.

        Essentially, there will be the simple Tornado version, (on sale now), for the purposes of incorporating one-click upsell/downsell/cross-sell sales funnels into your existing sales solution... and the extended Tornado version, (which you'll see the likes of come August '09 -- will have a standalone option and will carry a higher price tag).

        Hope this answers your questions..
        PLP,
        William
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  • Profile picture of the author lakshaybehl
    What?

    Do I see people complainin'?

    I mean... Complainin'?

    And them too... marketers?

    Woah! Gimme a break.

    I know this comment of mine is going to send me off into the hatebin of a lot of Warriors, but anyone who feels this 1-click upsell service on PayPal for $29.95 a month is over-the-board, sorry, you have not seen what getting a Merchant Account and Gateway is like... especially for International merchants.

    I mean come on- Aweber costs me twice that much and doesn't bring back what this will if it works correctly. Think about it, Aweber just lets me drive traffic to a site, not to increase the average visitor value all that very much. And 1shoppingCart-- the need is pretty much eliminated for that. That's at least $34.95 a month saved.

    Look William bro, I don't mind if you change it to 199.95 a month AT ALL... And I am serious, try me. That'd still add in at least a few grand extra each month into my pocket.

    I have been pulling my hair for not being able to implement 1 Click Upsells in the past, and now William bro-- I was thinking about getting my team of programmers to work along with PayPal. In fact, I just scheduled a meeting for this Thursday about the same thing. So technically I should be pissed off that you did it before me, but this is surprisingly the first time ever when I am happy someone else did what I was about to do. You just made my day.

    Of course, a BIG thanks to Allen... You are THE man. You know what we warriors really need and point us to the best solutions... Hats Off, as always. In fact, if I were to take my hats off everytime Allen did something that benefitted me, I would never be able to place that thing back on my head. No Flattery! Serious.

    Just one question for William though-- Will it work with aWeber? If it does, you really have a rockstar on your hands.

    I already signed up, but still can't login. Just PM'ing you the transaction id. Let me know where to login.

    -Lakshay

    P.S. Anything that Allen promotes has gotta be solid.
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  • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
    A nice implementation of the checkout process using PayPal API but this is not really a one click upsel system.

    The way true one click upsells work is:

    1. Credit card is captured payment is processed for initial order.

    2. After order customer is immediately offered the upsell and one click processes the payment for that upsell.

    This is done using merchant account gateway api where the merchant's system has the credit card data so that the single click processes the payment.

    What you are describing with the tornado approach is a shoppingcart with linear offers that lead to a final checkout confirmation step... in other words... more than one click. You might call it two or three click.

    This means that the visitor accepts initial offer but is not charged yet, then is forced to continue shopping so that they can see the upsells which they can accept (add to cart) or reject.

    The visitor then has to confirm the order and complete the process which technically ads several clicks and steps to the process before they are even charged.

    So its definitely not "one click."

    Closer to it and a nice funnel yes.

    The main problem with this approach, which only testing could truly show, is that it is easy for the client to mistakenly think after the acceptance of the initial offer that the transaction has been completed and the payment sent...

    The reason I know this is because the process being demonstrated is not new and has been used by PayPal pro users for some time. The new twist is the way that the upsells are offered.

    So though it is a smooth process and could possibly increase conversions over the traditional paypal upsell process you may want to test it first because the one advantage of the traditional paypal upsell process is that at least the first transaction is completed so definately less chance of abandonment due to confusion.

    The only reason confusion could be introduced which could impact abandonment is because so many are used to the traditional paypal checkout where the payment is complete before they see the upsell.

    I know you guys want to market this as a "one click" upsell system but it is really a one click add to cart funnel organized in a more efficient way than most have approached it since you really have to end back up with the cart and confirm the entire order before any charge is made.

    In some ways this may be more desirable from a consumer standpoint because if they do make it to the final confirmation (I will explain why I say "if" next) they can clearly see the entire package that they have agreed to and are asked to confirm the decisions that they made along the way and given a second chance to change their mind or even abandon the cart all together.

    I just know that I myself have fallen for this very mistake when making a purchase from a nearly identical, but poorly implemented, paypal pro checkout process via one shoppingcart. I thought the order was complete only to find it was not and to be forced to return to the site and do the checkout process all over again...

    I actually have experienced that same experience two times with two different similar Paypal checkout processes. Each time I could not understand why my account had not been debited as I thought that I had completed the checkout process.

    So among the excitement you guys might want to think more deeply and test this before you assume it will increase your bottom line... It may well do that... but it also could introduce other issues such as increased unintentional shoppingcart abandonment.

    I know that the developer tried to argue against that in this thread even going so far as to say that it could not be reduced... but that is the very purpose of true one click upsells... the original purchase is complete first and subsequent are complete in just one click with no confirmation.
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    Josh,

    I respect your expertise and most everything you've done, thus far. I've even purchased one of your products.

    No offense, but everything you just took a good 12+ paragraphs to verbosely express could easily be remedied with a prominent and non-abrasive simple notice stating, "You have not been fully charged, yet..". Or something to that extent; (which thank you for the input causing me to think of such a message).

    Secondly, my argument regarding cart abandonment; I actually said there's no way to prevent; didn't say reduce. Also, I mentioned that Tornado has a Abandoned Sale Notification sub-routine built in.

    This sub-routine will email the Merchant with their Prospect's contact information. Thus giving the Merchant various options; mainly the ability to contact said Prospect "asking", (instead of assuming), why they abandoned said transaction.

    That in and of itself greatly minimizes the ability to actually lose a customer. In fact, this type of Customer Service could very well build the Merchant's customer base.

    I must say that I am a tad bit crestfallen that you would expend such an exuberant amount of energy presumably dismantling Tornado basing the premise of your polemic entirely on semantics and assumptions. Yes, we say "one-click" and you say "tomato".

    Ultimately, any sales processes fruition will be determined by the Merchant's ability to "sell". Tornado is merely a mechanism by which that 'selling process' is made more interesting and flexible. We're not looking to; (nor have we claimed we can); save the world from itself.

    We're simply trying to help some people out with making a little more money without asking them to sell their souls, first.

    Have a blessed day, Josh. And thank you so much for your input..
    PLP,
    William
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    • Profile picture of the author Josh Anderson
      I was merely adding to the discussion offering professional insight from the perspective of an experienced ecommerce developer.

      You should not feel badly about my observations as they are not meant to be negative.

      They are however correct and offer you an opportunity to more clearly explain the technology you are describing as "one click" in your copy which may confuse some people due to the true nature of the add to shopping cart checkout process which is not a one click transaction and must be confirmed before the transaction is completed.

      There is nothing wrong with that approach. But as I explained it is different from one click checkout processes and introduces the chance for increased accidental cart abandonment.

      This does not detract from the quality of what you are offering. There is no question that it will benefit those that use it.

      Originally Posted by tecHead View Post

      Josh,

      I respect your expertise and most everything you've done, thus far. I've even purchased one of your products.

      No offense, but everything you just took a good 12+ paragraphs to verbosely express could easily be remedied with a prominent and non-abrasive simple notice stating, "You have not been fully charged, yet..". Or something to that extent; (which thank you for the input causing me to think of such a message).

      Secondly, my argument regarding cart abandonment; I actually said there's no way to prevent; didn't say reduce. Also, I mentioned that Tornado has a Abandoned Sale Notification sub-routine built in.

      This sub-routine will email the Merchant with their Prospect's contact information. Thus giving the Merchant various options; mainly the ability to contact said Prospect "asking", (instead of assuming), why they abandoned said transaction.

      That in and of itself greatly minimizes the ability to actually lose a customer. In fact, this type of Customer Service could very well build the Merchant's customer base.

      I must say that I am a tad bit crestfallen that you would expend such an exuberant amount of energy presumably dismantling Tornado basing the premise of your polemic entirely on semantics and assumptions. Yes, we say "one-click" and you say "tomato".

      Ultimately, any sales processes fruition will be determined by the Merchant's ability to "sell". Tornado is merely a mechanism by which that 'selling process' is made more interesting and flexible. We're not looking to; (nor have we claimed we can); save the world from itself.

      We're simply trying to help some people out with making a little more money without asking them to sell their souls, first.

      Have a blessed day, Josh. And thank you so much for your input..
      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author David_Thompson
    Josh, is right in one way it might not be the one-click-upsell
    most guru's are using but to have this working with Paypal
    is amazing to say the least.

    So he is using the merchant API to get all the data and all
    stuff, the mechanics isn't at all important i feel, yes he could
    have worded it different but this product fills a need...don't you
    guys think?

    It's a good breakthrough and if users do the things need to
    get buyers to go through the process and pay at the other
    end then I can't see why this service can't be a hit...

    It will offer users like myself who use Paypal everyday
    some advantages over the current way we use Paypal...

    --David
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  • Profile picture of the author Rachel Rofe
    I haven't read through the entire thread but just a note for the sales letter - Infusion doesn't do upsells on an order form - only on the shopping cart, which leads to 1 of 2 scenarios:

    1. People see all of the other products in your cart, making them confused and/or distracted away from purchase

    or

    2. You can hold the shopping cart so that people don't see other products in your cart through the process, but then they're only charged at the very end after they go through all the OTOs (which means they might realize they can't afford one of the OTOs, get disgusted, and not want to check out, thinking they can't succeed without all of the pieces)

    You can use that to your advantage.

    Edit: You can buy a custom upsell solution - it just won't accept PayPal and costs more for both the script and for the programming of it.
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  • Profile picture of the author MikeLantz
    Like Josh, I am also an ecommerce developer who understands what is going on here. I know how this software is using the Paypal API, and it is definitely a creative use of it...

    There are two things that everyone needs to consider:

    1) As Josh mentioned, shopping cart abandonment could cause you to lose an initial sale that you would have had doing it the "regular" way. But, upsells made through the system could potentially increase your overall revenue, even with the reduction of customers. But, testing will be required to find out if this is the case.

    With that being said, abandonment can be limited by good copy and notices to the user that help them understand what is going on and teach them how to complete the process. However, it never can be as simple as true "one-click" systems using a merchant account.

    2) While this method is currently working, Paypal could "break" it at anytime. An important question that needs answered here is: Did the developer show this system to Paypal and have them give it a the green light?

    If the answer is yes, then it will probably be OK. But, I have a feeling that the answer is no, and there is a good chance Paypal will not like this "creative" use of this particular API.

    Anyway, it would certainly be nice if Paypal would allow this, and even make it a more straightforward process to implement. Paypal is introducing its "Adaptive Payments" system later this year, and that will make a lot more things possible.

    Mike
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  • Profile picture of the author Jack Humphrey
    Great feedback everyone, thanks!

    It's no small issue - the difference between Tornado and the more expensive, complicated stuff. But that's the difference we are capitalizing on. It's not a negative - it's a sales positive.

    While massive carts and systems have been developed to try and handle every concievable thing an online business could ever need - a lot of what's been developed doesn't take into consideration that if you strip all the extra away, while you'd certainly be losing a lot of functionality, automation, and even "true" one click upsell, it is simpler and cheaper to do what's most important to anyone starting out: make more from each customer they gain.

    There's only one way to do that easily for most people, not geeks, but average people with low budgets.

    My company uses infusionsoft. We can afford it and we have someone on staff who has taken the many many hours of learning to get to know how to run it. We personally love infusion, but we're at a totally different level than the people Tornado is helping.

    In that context, we thought it was a pretty good step to take even though the sematics of one-click (which don't matter to the target market this is designed for) can be argued. I don't disagree in the least with the argument either. As long as no one tries to say this isn't one click upselling. That would be a mistake too.

    On the whole, we're talking about tweaking your processs for a minority of people who abandon the process. This isn't about the overall conversion process, but a fraction of it that we'd all like to keep as healthy as possible, but we know it's an ongoing testing process just like anything else to keep abandonment low.

    Everything about one click is averages. Averaging the # of people who take product 1, with the number who also take product 2, with the people who take nothing or abandon the process alltogether.

    Simply put, your average customer value is all you care about at the end of the day. If you make $569 more in sales in a day, you aren't sitting there freaking out because 4 out of 100 people abandoned the process.
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    • Hi guys,

      I posted a few questions to the contact form the other day but haven't heard back, thought I should put them here instead (gotta remember them now since they weren't sent by email, I can't look in my sent mail!):

      1) I use 1ShoppingCart now with Authorize.net as well as Paypal. Obviously Tornado would shift everything to paypal 100%. But I'm not really clear on how exactly Tornado would integrate with 1SC so I can still create my products in 1SC, handle my lists, etc. Is the idea that Tornado BECOMES your shopping cart?

      2) How does Tornado handle refunds? Can I process them through the software or do I have to log into Paypal and process them manually, as I must currently with 1SC?

      3) One big concern I have with using Paypal only is the reporting. There's no way that I've seen to get a report by product, or any of the other types of reports I normally do in 1SC. I have to export all activity to Excel and then filter like crazy and hope I didn't miss anything. Does Tornado give me complete sales activity reporting as well?

      I know I can do 1-click upsells with 1SC by showing them a checkout page each time that re-populates their financial info, but I really don't want to remind people at each upsell that they're whipping out the credit card.

      Jonathan
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  • Profile picture of the author tecHead
    Hi Jonathan,

    Originally Posted by macroking

    I posted a few questions to the contact form the other day but haven't heard back, thought I should put them here instead (gotta remember them now since they weren't sent by email, I can't look in my sent mail!):
    Firstly, thank you for your interest in Tornado. I apologize for the eMail coorespondance; I had planned on getting to those pending some time, today. Yet, here you are; which makes things a bit easier.. so thanks

    Originally Posted by macroking

    1) I use 1ShoppingCart now with Authorize.net as well as Paypal. Obviously Tornado would shift everything to paypal 100%. But I'm not really clear on how exactly Tornado would integrate with 1SC so I can still create my products in 1SC, handle my lists, etc. Is the idea that Tornado BECOMES your shopping cart?
    You don't necessarily need to abandon all of your other methods of conducting transactions, really. Tornado is just another alternative to what you're already using; granted a pretty lucrative alternative, but an alternative nonetheless.

    I guess you could look at Tornado as more of an extension to your current shopping cart(s); as it was built to do one thing and one thing only, (this version anyway).

    Think of Tornado as the Super Sales Rep. that you send qualified leads to. Tornado closes the initial sale and attempts to raise the Customer value by offering a couple of your other products while they're in the buying mood. Tornado then reports those sales back to the main office, (in your case 1SC).

    As far as communication, you'd basically tell Tornado to use the IPN URL that 1SC tells you to use when its just 1SC and PayPal talking. (I know that sounds a little confusing..)

    So instead of..
    1ShoppingCart --> PayPal --> 1ShoppingCart

    it would be..
    1ShoppingCart --> Tornado --> PayPal --> 1ShoppingCart

    Originally Posted by macroking

    2) How does Tornado handle refunds? Can I process them through the software or do I have to log into Paypal and process them manually, as I must currently with 1SC?
    As illustrated directly above, (and in previous posts), once Tornado hands the final transaction information over to PayPal for processing and presents the "Thank You Page".. Tornado is pretty much out of the picture.

    Therefore, any subsequent activity involving that transaction would be handled through either your main office, (your Main shoppingcart system), or PayPal.

    Originally Posted by macroking

    3) One big concern I have with using Paypal only is the reporting. There's no way that I've seen to get a report by product, or any of the other types of reports I normally do in 1SC. I have to export all activity to Excel and then filter like crazy and hope I didn't miss anything. Does Tornado give me complete sales activity reporting as well?
    As long as your shopping cart system can receive IPN data for transactions from PayPal, this shouldn't be an issue if that same shopping cart system is designed to run the reports you want.

    This is the case with Tornado. Tornado is only a Super Sales Rep.; little Tornado dude doesn't do Accounting.

    Originally Posted by macroking

    I know I can do 1-click upsells with 1SC by showing them a checkout page each time that re-populates their financial info, but I really don't want to remind people at each upsell that they're whipping out the credit card.
    That's pretty much the premise behind Tornado.

    To give Merchants the ability to offer more than one product while the Customer is in the buying mood without having to ask for financial information more than "once".

    Simple, but VERY powerful.

    I hope this answers your questions. We've got the email thing pretty much squared away now, so feel free to contact us if you have any further question.

    THANKS!
    PLP,
    William
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    • To the guys behind Tornado: if I was you, I would re-do the sales page video with some voice-over commenting what's going on at every step. And I'd remove the background music. It's difficult to follow along what's going on in the video and I'm sure it's hurting your conversions.
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    • Thanks for the info William,

      So instead of..
      1ShoppingCart --> PayPal --> 1ShoppingCart

      it would be..
      1ShoppingCart --> Tornado --> PayPal --> 1ShoppingCart
      Aha... I think something just became clear. So Tornado does not become the first point of contact. Someone would still have to go through my normal shopping cart process, see the order page where they fill out all their info, then choose paypal as a payment method, and ONLY THEN would Tornado kick in, is that right?

      If so, then there's a bit of a problem I think as the person could still choose to pay via credit card instead of Paypal, thus taking them out of the Tornado upsell loop entirely. I'm not sure if I can choose to accept ONLY paypal in 1SC, though I suppose if they support people without merchant accounts then I must be able to.

      I'm still confused as to how I would specify a tornado URL though (I'm assuming there is one for a specific campaign/sequence?) With 1SC (and probably most other carts too), someone clicks the link to buy the product, fills out their info, chooses Paypal, and then off they go to paypal via some link that I have no control over. It's all handled behind the scenes by the cart. I'm not seeing how the visitor would be routed into Tornado instead.

      As illustrated directly above, (and in previous posts), once Tornado hands the final transaction information over to PayPal for processing and presents the "Thank You Page".. Tornado is pretty much out of the picture.

      Therefore, any subsequent activity involving that transaction would be handled through either your main office, (your Main shoppingcart system), or PayPal.
      Yes I see that now... a shame as paypal refunds have to be handled totally manually in 1SC since they don't support the ability to send refund requests to paypal for execution. I wish I could remove that annoyance.

      As long as your shopping cart system can receive IPN data for transactions from PayPal, this shouldn't be an issue if that same shopping cart system is designed to run the reports you want.
      OK so the product inventory would be managed by 1SC, all transactional data would be listed in 1SC because they use their own IPN to get that information (obviously they must because they get the data now for a single sale so I assume it will work fine with what Tornado sends back). Ultimately my sales reporting would still be managed in 1SC and really nothing changes in my business except that people are presented with additional things to purchase as they check out.

      I think I'm starting to see the light! I will agree with other comments about the sales page though, all this stuff isn't made clear and would probably result in fewer questions as well as increased sales if it were all on the page.

      Jonathan
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by Jasonb25 View Post

      Can this be implemented with the "Butterfly Marketing Script"? and if so does anyone have an idea how to do it.

      Jason
      Hi,

      BM listens for IPN data; so, yes. And that would be the way to integrate the two.

      The only thing BM might have an issue with is Subscriptions; as they'd be reported differently. Yet, compensation for that is already on the Tornado update list.

      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author aceriker
    I'm confused, do you need to upgrade your PayPal account to PayPal Pro to get this working? That seems to be the only way to take advantage of the pre-authorization - kinda like what GoDaddy does when they keep your PayPal account on file.

    I know PayPal Pro offers an incredible amount of flexibility to a developer and it pretty underused in the Internet Marketing field.

    Peter
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by aceriker View Post

      I'm confused, do you need to upgrade your PayPal account to PayPal Pro to get this working? That seems to be the only way to take advantage of the pre-authorization - kinda like what GoDaddy does when they keep your PayPal account on file.

      I know PayPal Pro offers an incredible amount of flexibility to a developer and it pretty underused in the Internet Marketing field.

      Peter
      No. There is no need to upgrade your PayPal account to PayPal Pro. All you need is a Business or Premier account.

      PLP,
      William
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  • Profile picture of the author Dr Dan
    I just heard about this on Russell Brunsons micro c weekly training. This looks really cool for those of us that want an easy solution.
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  • Profile picture of the author jackjohnson
    Hi everyone great post and great script, I was wondering if it is possible to intigrate it with the rapid action profits script? It would make a very valuble addon
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    • Profile picture of the author tecHead
      Originally Posted by jackjohnson View Post

      Hi everyone great post and great script, I was wondering if it is possible to intigrate it with the rapid action profits script? It would make a very valuble addon
      Thanks for the kudos; but no, I haven't had the chance to discuss integration with Sid as of yet.

      I'm actually in the process of doing some major upgrades to Tornado, though.

      Hopefully, sometime soon I'll be able to hook up with Sid and we can talk about it; who knows.

      PLP,
      tecHead
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      Automation is the primary conduit to successful relaxation
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