This seller's attitude is amazing (rant)

50 replies
It's a rant, but since this is a "marketing rant" I hope the mods leave it (no names)

I still have a hard time understanding what just happened. I'm on this seller's list because I've purchased from him, several times. Would have been at least one more (this was the last time...obviously).

Any way the other day I purchased a product from the email he sent out. Unfortunately it didn't work as demonstrated in the video. So I submitted a ticket AND emailed him with no response (48 hours on a weekday the same day as the email).

I then decided to file a dispute with Paypal, I only opened the dispute to get a response from him and didn't check the "Refund" option. I mentioned I needed the situation corrected or a refund. To my surprise the seller escalated the dispute himself without even attempting to respond or fix the problem about an hour later. This is a digital product so there's no extra charges except his time.

Coincidentally I refunded a product from a seller a day or so earlier (no I'm not a serial refunder), and even though it probably wasn't needed I told them that it was inappropriate/ineffective for my niche. They were very professional about it, they even declined when I asked if instead of the refund to "swap" it with another same priced product (which I ended up buying). I would have no hesitation about buying from this seller again.

The first seller obviously treats it like a "one time sale", while the second merchant knows the lifetime value of a customer. (end of rant)

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Edit: There's a "glitch" in the Paypal system refunding payments made with a credit card that sellers especially should be aware of so they can notify their customers - see post #21
#amazing #attitude #rant #seller
  • Profile picture of the author onSubie
    Disputes in PayPal are bad for a seller's reputation. As soon as you file a dispute you are almost alleging fraudulent activity i.e. You were ripped off and not getting relief from the vendor.

    Almost all PayPal disputes should be escalated to make sure you get your side of the dispute on record even if a refund is the ultimate result.

    You started the dispute- he is just following the process.

    I think a dispute is a pretty heavy handed reaction to a vendor you have only given 48 hours to reply and not had a problem with in the past.

    I would have waited to get a rejection of my refund request or until multiple requests went unanswered before opening a dispute.
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  • Profile picture of the author Bill Hugall
    Gotta say I like vendor number two's response, but at the same time I was once #1. Short sited and completely missed the point of it being a customer driven business.
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    • Profile picture of the author nik0
      Banned
      48 hours is a bit short as there could be several reasons for delay like:

      - being on a trip / short holiday of a few days
      - your email might end up in his spam folder
      - he simply missed your email due to large amounts of emails

      All of the above happens to me sometimes, and once or twice it resulted in a dispute that could be settled quickly.
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      • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
        Not to step on any toes here, but some people are missing the point. I am not asking for an opinion.

        Fiverr and Paypal suggest waiting 48 hours, two business days (I did). They say try to work it out with the seller (I did) A seller should be available (or a va) right after sending out an email for THEIR product. I checked the TICKET (not email) which I received a confirmation and apparently it had been read (checked the ticket). Even a reply (by a person) at that point that they were looking into it would have been sufficient.

        Even so 48 hours to quick? Less than half an hour after opening the dispute the seller escalated it. Even then a reply or refund would have did less damage to the seller's status rather than let Paypal decide. Like I said when the dispute was opened I didn't directly ask for a refund, it still could've been worked out.

        At any rate - would you treat your CUSTOMER (now former customer) like this?
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        • Profile picture of the author onSubie
          Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

          Not to step on any toes here, but some people are missing the point. I am not asking for an opinion.
          Uhhh... you do realize which forum you're posting in...?

          WF will give opinions whether you want them or not LOL

          I still think you were pretty harsh on a seller who had done nothing wrong except not reply as quickly as you liked. That is not the same as saying I think you were wrong.

          Which I don't. Just not much to rant about considering the number of real scammers and poor vendors in this niche.
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        • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
          Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

          Not to step on any toes here, but some people are missing the point. I am not asking for an opinion.
          Like Subie said you are on a forum so thats quite the attitude and tends to make me think the seller had an issue with you and side with him/her.

          Here you are on a forum venting because YOU initiated a third party process within 48 hours and the seller had the nerve to actually exercise his rights and use the process of the third party processor YOU initiated.

          But heres where I really lean to the seller. You admit openly you have bought from the seller on many occasions so that says you like his stuff, that he hasn't ripped you off and you want more of what he offers. Thats not so common these days and yet in 48 hours you chucked all that good will through the window to go complaining to paypal like he had earned no respect or benefit of the doubt.

          Paypal disputes are NOT help desk extensions. they reflect badly on the seller if he gets too many of them in a short time. 48 hours for someone you trusted enough to buy from several times (which defies your claim he is a one time approach seller). to me just smacks of impatience and my way or the highway. Similar to you telling a forum that you are not asking for their opinion. We can only wonder what was actually said to the seller and to Paypal and the answer to that might make the seller escalating it very understandable.
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

          Not to step on any toes here, but some people are missing the point. I am not asking for an opinion.

          Fiverr and Paypal suggest waiting 48 hours, two business days (I did). They say try to work it out with the seller (I did) A seller should be available (or a va) right after sending out an email for THEIR product. I checked the TICKET (not email) which I received a confirmation and apparently it had been read (checked the ticket). Even a reply (by a person) at that point that they were looking into it would have been sufficient.

          Even so 48 hours to quick? Less than half an hour after opening the dispute the seller escalated it. Even then a reply or refund would have did less damage to the seller's status rather than let Paypal decide. Like I said when the dispute was opened I didn't directly ask for a refund, it still could've been worked out.

          At any rate - would you treat your CUSTOMER (now former customer) like this?
          No when I don't answer for 48 hours I'm not behind my PC for that long.

          Sure some customers that keep asking question after question after question I sometimes do delay things a bit, (eg pretend like I only check my email once or twice a day) as otherwise I'll be emailing all day long with some but that only happens if I already answered like 5 emails from the same person in an hour but that doesn't seem to be the case with you.

          So yeah, you're right, if they simply ignore you I would already demand a refund in 24 hours and dispute in 48 hours or sooner.
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        • Profile picture of the author Phil Wilkinson
          Since you don't want opinions about your rant, I'll just share an experience I recently had with another marketer, because I can think of at least 20 reasons that his response might have been slow.

          I made a purchase. I had a support issue. I waited and waited for a response. Same situation, in that I had dealt with him before, and never had a problem.

          Rather than take the road you chose, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and some more time.

          Next thing I know, I get an email from him, profusely apologizing for the wait, and the reason for it....his father had been gravely ill, in hospital, and before six days passed, DIED.

          I was glad I kept my cool, because if I had filed a dispute, I would have felt about two inches tall.

          Hopefully you will consider some of the opinions being offered here, and take them into consideration the next time something like this happens.
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          • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
            Yes arguably I might have been more patient, but the fact that the email from the seller and the support ticket I submitted were sent on the same day it's unlikely this was the case. It does happen, but combined with the fact that the ticket had been viewed yet not responded to I opened the dispute. How long does it take to acknowledge the ticket was received and will be looked into (not an automated message)? I never had a problem with this seller either, but this is the first time I tried to contact him. For those who think I should trust him just because I purchased from him before I could point you to another "former" Warrior with a reputation for CREATING products that people can buy, but just the opposite when it comes to the actual product, support and refunds. Warriors who've been to the review forum can name quite a few.

            Originally Posted by Phil Wilkinson View Post

            Since you don't want opinions about your rant, I'll just share an experience I recently had with another marketer, because I can think of at least 20 reasons that his response might have been slow.

            I made a purchase. I had a support issue. I waited and waited for a response. Same situation, in that I had dealt with him before, and never had a problem.

            Rather than take the road you chose, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and some more time.

            Next thing I know, I get an email from him, profusely apologizing for the wait, and the reason for it....his father had been gravely ill, in hospital, and before six days passed, DIED.

            I was glad I kept my cool, because if I had filed a dispute, I would have felt about two inches tall.

            Hopefully you will consider some of the opinions being offered here, and take them into consideration the next time something like this happens.
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      • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
        Banned
        Originally Posted by nik0 View Post

        48 hours is a bit short
        I'm gradually coming around to thinking this, in general.

        I used to think that if vendors were making themselves look like a professional business, in their sales materials, then they should damn well reply within 48 hours to a question/request from a customer. But nowadays I'm increasingly dealing with people on the basis that if I hadn't previously heard of them, mostly they're not really professional businesses at all, but self-employed individuals pretending to be, which is actually fairly normal in internet marketing, and that you have to give them a bit more leeway than 48 hours, frustrating though it can sometimes be. In other words, increasing experience has probably made me lower my expectations.

        .
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        • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
          Banned
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          • Profile picture of the author Brent Stangel
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            That might be true for some cases, but in this case, the seller has definitively responded by escalating the claim in the hopes that Paypal will refuse the refund based on it being a digital product. He did not even contact the buyer to attempt to resolve it, and if he had the knowledge that there was a problem and the time to escalate the claim, he had the time to deal appropriately with the customer.
            I agree.

            They didn't respond to the buyer's tickets for 48 hours but respond to the dispute in 30 minutes? And this is a repeat buyer?
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

            That might be true for some cases, but in this case, the seller has definitively responded by escalating the claim in the hopes that Paypal will refuse the refund based on it being a digital product.
            No one can make such a mind reading definitive statement logically based on the statement of one party in a two party situation. You have only one side of the story. A dispute can be worded in such a way you know the person has no desire to be reasonable and some even make it pretty obvious they are serial refunders and people get tired of it.

            In several years I have escalated one dispute and it was because the charge was so ridiculous and slanderous settling it would have made the accusation stand which I had no intention of doing win or lose digital product or not.
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        • Profile picture of the author nik0
          Banned
          Originally Posted by Alexa Smith View Post

          I'm gradually coming around to thinking this, in general.

          I used to think that if vendors were making themselves look like a professional business, in their sales materials, then they should damn well reply within 48 hours to a question/request from a customer. But nowadays I'm increasingly dealing with people on the basis that if I hadn't previously heard of them, mostly they're not really professional businesses at all, but self-employed individuals pretending to be, which is actually fairly normal in internet marketing, and that you have to give them a bit more leeway than 48 hours, frustrating though it can sometimes be. In other words, increasing experience has probably made me lower my expectations.

          .
          Even on holidays I do check my email once a day before I call it a day, or in the morning when I wake up. But when I travel from Asia to Europe it might sometimes take a little longer, though 48 hours is very long I agree.

          But yeah sure, I don't have an office or support employees as I can perfectly handle that myself and tasks get outsourced to people working from home like writers and VA's that publish links.

          So when I say my team and me people might get the idea there's a large company behind it while in fact it's just me sitting here in the living room on the sofa typing the emails, likely watching a movie at the same time Less professional then people working in an office but who cares, this way I keep the costs down and all the important tasks are done by me in a professional way and that's all what matters really.

          That's like saying because I work from home I should have an ugly website (not that my site is that great lol) or only use the word I instead of we/us, while it is we/us when you add up all the freelancers I work with.

          I do like to add that when I deal with freelancers I get a much faster response on average then when I email Hostgator for support or any other hosting company or domain registrant. So there you have it, average waiting time for the professional companies at least a few hours up until 24 hours, and with the self employed guys often a response in 30 minutes and that's not exaggarated, when I email one of my VA's at working days and normal working hours I often get a response back in 5-30 minutes.

          Yesterday I bought 2 plugins through a private contact and he emailed me back in 20 minutes, once I paid his support employee send me the plugins within the hour and when I had a support question I was answered within 10 minutes with a proper solution instead of some half assed solution by some average paid customer employee that has no clue while reading some script.

          So for support, please let me deal with small companies (that includes small hosting companies that are also laser fast most of the time). With the big companies I don't even check my mail for the next 12-24 hours as I don't expect a response back any way within that time stack.
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    As a seller and customer, I can kind of see both sides of the coin here.

    Regardless of the support ticket, if a dispute is filed and the seller has a "no questions asked refund policy", like most IM sellers do, he should have just refunded the money and closed the dispute.

    The read I get on it is that when the seller immediately escalated it to a claim, he is banking on the fact that PayPal is going to rule in his favor due to the fact that they don't offer buyer protection on digital products. The seller most likely knew this, and immediately escalated to a claim to put it in PayPal's hands so he could avoid giving a refund.

    As for the 48-hour wait time, that is more than enough time for a seller to get back to a customer. I usually get back to my support tickets in 8 hours or less, and never more than 24 hours.

    I think I'm going to have to side with the OP on this one. After all, he wasn't even asking for a refund in the dispute, just some more information.
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  • Profile picture of the author onSubie
    I think what people are missing is that this is not the first refund the OP requested from the vendor.

    If any sellers here got multiple refund requests for multiple products from the same buyer they would be wary of a "serial refunder".

    If every time someone bought a product they refunded you might delay their next refund request until you had a chance to take a closer look.

    The OP bought a product and asked for a refund and got it.
    The OP bought another product and asked for another refund.
    The vendor did not send this second refund within 48 hours like he did the first refund.
    The OP escalates to PayPal dispute.

    This is from the OPs own words.

    I'll bet the vendor is ranting about this incident in a JV Forum under the subject: "I hate serial refunders!"
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    • Profile picture of the author sbucciarel
      Banned
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      • Profile picture of the author onSubie
        Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

        No ... from his own words, he is talking about the experience with two different sellers. One refunded his money and then the OP bought a different product from that same seller, which he kept. The other is the one the OP is talking about not getting the refund, no response after 48 hrs and seller escalated the dispute in Paypal.
        Ah okay- my bad. I thought he was talking about the same vendor.

        I guess I get tired of these rants in the WF that are "he said-she said" arguments when the second party is not here to give their side.
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        • Profile picture of the author discrat
          Well, it is frustrating but imo gotta give the guy the benefit of the doubt and more like 72 hours at least.



          - Robert Andrew
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  • Profile picture of the author nicheblogger75
    There's a few things that bother me regarding the 48-hour time period with no response. First, the seller couldn't respond to the buyer for over 48 hours, yet he could respond to a dispute within 30 minutes. That seems a little fishy to me, unless that was the first time in 48 hours he had been able to check his email/support desk. Even if that's the case, though, he could have simply replied back to the dispute and/or support ticket instead of immediately escalating it to a claim.

    Also, let's remember that in this age of smart phones, tablets, notebooks, PCs, etc., it's a very rare situation indeed that you wouldn't be able to access the Internet for over 48 hours. It doesn't matter if you are on a vacation, in a hotel, in your car, or even in an airplane. You can still most likely access the Internet. Unless you got locked up in jail or were somehow otherwise incapacitated, it's very unlikely that you wouldn't be able to get to the Internet for over 48 hours.

    And while it's true that I can't read minds, if I accept the OPs story, it leads me to believe that the seller escalated to avoid a possible refund.

    That's just my opinion. People who commented that we only have side of the story are right on. It would take both sides to better understand the facts and formulate an educated opinion.

    I would definitely also agree that if there is a refund policy on the sales page, you should take a screen shot and share the link with PP. I do believe that although it is in claim status, you are allowed to add information at any time. That may help but in my experience PP will most likely decide the claim in the seller's favor, as they have to follow their own policies.

    I think it all comes to down to professionalism. I think you would be hard pressed to find any large online company that wouldn't respond to a support ticket in 48 hours or less unless it's the weekend.
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    • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
      Problem solved. Sellers may want to take note that when a credit card is used when making Paypal payments the charges show up, but not the refunds. Thus NO refund confirmation email from Paypal is sent. As it turns out the seller did refund me, but failed to respond or confirm this. Just by chance I logged into JVZoo and noticed that a refund had been issued. After taking my foot out of my mouth I apologized to the seller (sort of), and letting him know what had taken place and it would be a good idea to confirm with the customer that a refund had been issued, and if payment was made with a credit card to check with them first. This "glitch" in the Paypal system probably caused some problems that sellers weren't aware about. (excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth)
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      • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
        Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

        Problem solved. Sellers may want to take note that when a credit card is used when making Paypal payments the charges show up, but not the refunds. Thus NO refund confirmation email from Paypal is sent. As it turns out the seller did refund me, but failed to respond or confirm this. Just by chance I logged into JVZoo and noticed that a refund had been issued. After taking my foot out of my mouth I apologized to the seller (sort of), and letting him know what had taken place and it would be a good idea to confirm with the customer that a refund had been issued, and if payment was made with a credit card to check with them first. This "glitch" in the Paypal system probably caused some problems that sellers weren't aware about. (excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth)

        So it seems to me that...
        1) the seller did, in fact, refund your purchase as a result of your initial helpdesk ticket, and
        2) took the only logical action when faced with your dispute (i.e. checked the box that says "Refund already given" and supplied Paypal with the TXNID of the refund transaction).

        That would automatically upgrade the dispute to Claim status until such time as Paypal was able to verify the refund against your dispute.
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        • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
          Yes exactly. But I was trying to point out on THIS post that the seller needs to COMMUNICATE with the buyer just to be safe so there's no misunderstanding. AND not let the buyer get "all bent out of shape" for nothing.

          AND for other sellers to be aware should such a misunderstanding occur. I had to find this out by chance, because the seller gave no reply.
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      • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
        Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

        Just by chance I logged into JVZoo and noticed that a refund had been issued. After taking my foot out of my mouth I apologized to the seller (sort of),
        Don't know why it was "sort of" but you need to update the Opening post. Lots of people don't read later messages.

        Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

        AND not let the buyer get "all bent out of shape" for nothing.

        AND for other sellers to be aware should such a misunderstanding occur. I had to find this out by chance, because the seller gave no reply.
        You did get bent out of shape for nothing. I have been a seller for years on Paypal and had no knowledge that a refund notice would not be given to the buyer. He did nothing wrong
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          There could be a very reasonable and valid excuse for not immediately processing your refund.

          You don't say how long after the purchase you requested a refund. That's important.

          When you buy through paypal with a credit card - or using funds from your banks account -....

          ...the seller is credited with your payment BUT that payment has not been finalized. Same can be true of credit cards as the charge is placed but has to be verified to be completed. Usually this happens without buyers knowing it but if the verification fails, the transaction is reversed.

          If you paid through paypal with money from your bank acct (which I do frequently)...that payment is not finalized until your bank sends the money to paypal.

          An experienced seller may allow time for a payment to be finalized before issuing refunds. Most of them, however, don't bother to explain this to buyers.
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          • Profile picture of the author Kay King
            After taking my foot out of my mouth I apologized to the seller (sort of), and letting him know what had taken place and it would be a good idea to confirm with the customer that a refund had been issued, and if payment was made with a credit card to check with them first.
            So - your mistake but you basically told the seller he was still in the wrong. Sounds like you inserted foot in mouth...and swallowed.

            If the charge appeared on your paypal account - the removal of the charge would also appear, wouldn't it?

            Still - I think 48 hrs is too short a time period (considering time zones, etc) to be filing a paypal dispute.
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      • Profile picture of the author Sam Zachuth
        So all the fuss and ballyhoo discussion on this just to see that you overreacted and were indignant. Great job! You have proven that you are a horrible customer to deal with. I feel sorry for the poor seller, and the readers that had to be subjected to all the pseudo-intellect ego stroking going on in this thread about the moral high-ground and how so many vendors rely on paypal to jerk people.

        The moral of the rant is, that business is trying and has it's problems when you are a seller or provider. Having to deal with entitled, lazy, dumb, uncoordinated and fussy people is part of marketing and business. And as a buyer, you have the burden of keeping track of your finances as well as your bookkeeping and awareness, or you end up looking like a whining fool.

        Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

        Problem solved. Sellers may want to take note that when a credit card is used when making Paypal payments the charges show up, but not the refunds. Thus NO refund confirmation email from Paypal is sent. As it turns out the seller did refund me, but failed to respond or confirm this. Just by chance I logged into JVZoo and noticed that a refund had been issued. After taking my foot out of my mouth I apologized to the seller (sort of), and letting him know what had taken place and it would be a good idea to confirm with the customer that a refund had been issued, and if payment was made with a credit card to check with them first. This "glitch" in the Paypal system probably caused some problems that sellers weren't aware about. (excuse me while I remove my foot from my mouth)
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        • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
          So some of you are saying that as a multiple purchaser from this seller that I shouldn't be expecting normal service?

          How many of you knew that credit card purchases show up in your Paypal activity for purchases, but not refunds? One seller mentioned not being aware of this, I've been doing business with Paypal since they began and I didn't know this.

          Here's the scenario: seller sends the email I purchase and run into a problem, I submit a ticket the SAME day, and an email. I explain that the software doesn't work as he demonstrates in the video and REQUEST a refund. At that time he could still try to correct it, I gave a detailed explanation. During the second day after submitting the ticket I check and see that it was viewed, with no response or refund from the seller.

          After waiting until day number three I open the dispute with Paypal, not asking directly for a refund, but either a fix OR the refund.

          I'm not exactly sure how Paypal disputes go but if the refund had ALREADY been issued how was I able to open a dispute? Isn't it also possible the seller issued the refund THEN escalated the dispute?

          I added to the support ticket ASSUMING that the Paypal glitch had just happened and began with ... My mistake... And went on to explain to the seller what PROBABLY happened. I say probably because to this day I have yet to get some kind of response from the seller. Which got me thinking about how I was able to actually open the dispute, and if the refund was issued before or after the seller escalated the dispute.
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          • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
            Hi cableguy...

            Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

            So some of you are saying that as a multiple purchaser from this seller that I shouldn't be expecting normal service?
            While it would have definitely gone more smoothly if the vendor had acknowledged your refund request, "normal service" was provided by simply issuing the refund.

            One of the problems with paying by credit card is that related transactions are NOT instantaneous (seller refunds, buyer chargebacks, etc.), and the merchant has no way of knowing whether your payment came from your Paypal account or if it was a credit card transaction, so he treats your refund request the same as any other.

            How many of you knew that credit card purchases show up in your Paypal activity for purchases, but not refunds? One seller mentioned not being aware of this, I've been doing business with Paypal since they began and I didn't know this.
            I believe refunds DO show... but not until they have actually been issued by Paypal to the original remitter (i.e. your credit card company). If the purchase had been made from your Paypal account balance, the transfer of funds from the seller's account to your Paypal account would have been virtually instantaneous.

            That is assuming that the seller actually had the funds available in his/her account.

            If not, Paypal would have drafted the funds from the sellers bank account or his credit card account (which involves float) and only after successful receipt of those funds, Paypal would then issue the refund to your credit card account (a batch process that also involves float). Only then would the refund transaction show in your Paypal account.

            Here's the scenario: I purchase and run into a problem, I submit a ticket the SAME day, and an email. I explain that the software doesn't work as he demonstrates in the video and REQUEST a refund. At that time he could still try to correct it, I gave a detailed explanation. During the second day after submitting the ticket I check and see that it was viewed, with no response or refund from the seller.
            While we would all love to get instantaneous refunds, and reputable vendors typically deal with refund requests in an expeditious manner... shit happens. (As others have noted above, the vendor may have been out of town, he/she may have had a death in the family, his house may have burned down.)

            I'm not exactly sure how Paypal disputes go but if the refund had ALREADY been issued how was I able to open a dispute? Isn't it also possible the seller issued the refund THEN escalated the dispute?
            Because, as explained above, when you purchase using a credit card there are a lot of back office, batch transactions generated, delaying the reversal of the original purchase transaction. Multiple parties are involved, and Paypal will not record the refund against the original purchase transaction until AFTER the transmittal of funds (and acknowledgement of same) back to the credit card company.
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            • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
              Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

              I believe refunds DO show... but not until they have actually been issued by Paypal to the original remitter (i.e. your credit card company). If the purchase had been made from your Paypal account balance, the transfer of funds from the seller's account to your Paypal account would have been virtually instantaneous.
              .
              Yeah that makes more sense rather than them not sending any when you use a card. It was my experience that they do notify on all refunds.
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          • Profile picture of the author Mike Anthony
            Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

            So some of you are saying that as a multiple purchaser from this seller that I shouldn't be expecting normal service?
            No we are saying that since someone has shown themselves dependable in the past you can extend extra courtesy based on the former earned rep. That courtesy is extended in every other area of human interaction. There are well established online based companies with multiple employees that have 48 and even 72 hour turn around on non emergency tickets. Thats indisputable . I do business with some (not the 72 hour but I have seen those). Namecheap actually took 36 hours on one of my tickets recently (they are not one of the 48 hour ones I was talking about). Thats right Namecheap a major domain registration seller. They were at the time only employing staff in Romania and the ticket sat for 14 hours before there was even someone at the support office.

            Isn't it also possible the seller issued the refund THEN escalated the dispute?
            He'd have to have bypassed the dispute since if you choose to refund as part of the dispute system its closed automatically and theres no way to escalate it. You escalate it to have Paypal determine what to do so refunding and then escalating it wouldn't make much sense. its more likely there was a glitch somewhere or perhaps he sent the money to you without officially doing a refund. At any rate he did nothing wrong.

            I can't see why you are still trying to blame him and wh y your apology was "sort of".
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            • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
              No we are saying that since someone has shown themselves dependable in the past you can extend extra courtesy based on the former earned rep. That courtesy is extended in every other area of human interaction. There are well established online based companies with multiple employees that have 48 and even 72 hour turn around on non emergency tickets. Thats indisputable . I do business with some (not the 72 hour but I have seen those). Namecheap actually took 36 hours on one of my tickets recently (they are not one of the 48 hour ones I was talking about). Thats right Namecheap a major domain registration seller. They were at the time only employing staff in Romania and the ticket sat for 14 hours before there was even someone at the support office.

              Well saying that the ticket was viewed and not responded to I see it the other way as well, doesn't the seller need to extend the courtesy especially to a previous buyer. In other words NORMAL service. I still haven't received a response to the original ticket which is now going on close to a week. That's hasn't bolstered my confidence in him


              Like I said I don't know how the Paypal system works, but I meant the other way around - escalated the dispute then issued the refund. But again like I said I don't know how the Paypal system works. Yes possibly it was the "glitch".


              He'd have to have bypassed the dispute since if you choose to refund as part of the dispute system its closed automatically and theres no way to escalate it. You escalate it to have Paypal determine what to do so refunding and then escalating it wouldn't make much sense. its more likely there was a glitch somewhere or perhaps he sent the money to you without officially doing a refund. At any rate he did nothing wrong.

              I can't see why you are still trying to blame him and wh y your apology was "sort of".
              And the sort of apology was admitting the mistake, at that point there was no blame, just the admission of an error on my part. But not even replying to a support ticket IS wrong. Not even replying to my admission of error (if it was an error - arguably) is just plain rude. As for the blaming the seller my post "problem solved" explaining the "glitch" was saying it wasn't the sellers fault. Everything after that was a response to those who criticized for expecting normal customer service. It may have come off differently, but I was pointing out maybe there's more than one way the escalation/refund may have happened. If people hadn't been so quick to side with the seller after the "problem solved" post that would never have been posted. After that "problem solved" post I thought this thread would die out, but obviously it didn't. Some people keep bumping it up again.
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              • Profile picture of the author onSubie
                Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

                Well saying that the ticket was viewed and not responded to I see it the other way as well, doesn't the seller need to extend the courtesy especially to a previous buyer. In other words NORMAL service. I still haven't received a response to the original ticket which is now going on close to a week. That's hasn't bolstered my confidence in him.
                It's not about that, it's that you bought a product before and were on his active list so it is very unlikely he was deliberately trying to rip you off.

                Since it is unlikely he is deliberately trying to rip you off, the assumption would be he had a bad day, was busy or backed-up, had a family emergency - whatever.

                You first thought should not have been "OMG he is ripping me off" and escalate.

                Your first thought should have been "Strange, I have never had a problem with him before- I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and another 48 hours".

                Again-not any kind of obligation or anything on your part- just that past business practices and interactions didn't show any shady behaviour that would give a reason for you to panic so quickly.


                As opposed to an unproven seller you have never heard of before who just may have taken the money and run.
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                • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
                  So in other words I shouldn't expect NORMAL service.

                  Read the posts, it was the seller who escalated the dispute.

                  Originally Posted by onSubie View Post

                  It's not about that, it's that you bought a product before and were on his active list so it is very unlikely he was deliberately trying to rip you off.

                  Since it is unlikely he is deliberately trying to rip you off, the assumption would be he had a bad day, was busy or backed-up, had a family emergency - whatever.

                  You first thought should not have been "OMG he is ripping me off" and escalate.

                  Your first thought should have been "Strange, I have never had a problem with him before- I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and another 48 hours".

                  Again-not any kind of obligation or anything on your part- just that past business practices and interactions didn't show any shady behaviour that would give a reason for you to panic so quickly.


                  As opposed to an unproven seller you have never heard of before who just may have taken the money and run.
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                  • Profile picture of the author onSubie
                    Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

                    So in other words I shouldn't expect NORMAL service.

                    Read the posts, it was the seller who escalated the dispute.
                    I just mean "trust" isn't an abstract concept and from your own post you give the impression that you hadn't had a problem before so some (not all) think 48 hours to escalate to a dispute was a little quick on the trigger.

                    At least considering you thought his behaviour was so outrageous it merited a rant on WF.

                    From reading the posts it isn't even clear that he was late on giving a refund with delays in credit card processing and notifications.

                    Without your rant it's just another simple miscommunication. And that really isn't anything to rant about.

                    There have been far more outrageous scams that get ranted about here and they don't even get as much attention as your thread.

                    Although a good discussion as there seems to be widely varying opinions on what is "acceptable" service.
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                  • Profile picture of the author Sid Hale
                    Hi cableguy,

                    Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

                    So in other words I shouldn't expect NORMAL service.

                    Read the posts, it was the seller who escalated the dispute.
                    But you DID get NORMAL service... the merchant issued the refund.
                    The fact that you received no notification of that is (at least in part) due to the fact that your refund had to first be processed by Paypal (twice) and by your credit card company. That can easily take longer than the 2 days you waited before creating the dispute.

                    He didn't escalate the dispute.

                    He simply indicated to Paypal that he had already issued the refund. That is one of only about 3 options available to him when addressing a dispute - and the only one that made sense, given the fact that he had, indeed, done so.

                    That action causes Paypal to automatically escalate your dispute to a CLAIM, as it is now in their hands to research/resolve the dispute with no further action from either the buyer or the seller.
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                    • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
                      Yes I fully understand the situation/glitch. That was the short version of a snap response to the other person. The ONLY thing I'm blaming the seller for is substandard service (not replying to the ticket). Everything else may or may not have been caused by the glitch. It's just that I'm getting REALLY fed up trying to defend expecting normal customer service. NOT answering a support ticket even if just to say a refund has been issued or what is going on and letting the customer have to find out himself is just plain bad service. That ticket has yet to be replied to. THAT"S not normal service.

                      Originally Posted by Sid Hale View Post

                      Hi cableguy,



                      But you DID get NORMAL service... the merchant issued the refund.
                      The fact that you received no notification of that is (at least in part) due to the fact that your refund had to first be processed by Paypal (twice) and by your credit card company. That can easily take longer than the 2 days you waited before creating the dispute.

                      He didn't escalate the dispute.

                      He simply indicated to Paypal that he had already issued the refund. That is one of only about 3 options available to him when addressing a dispute - and the only one that made sense, given the fact that he had, indeed, done so.

                      That action causes Paypal to automatically escalate your dispute to a CLAIM, as it is now in their hands to research/resolve the dispute with no further action from either the buyer or the seller.
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  • Profile picture of the author Lightlysalted
    Such a shame when sellers such poor customer service. There's no need for it. You want repeat custom so it never ceases to amaze me when I hear stories like these.
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  • Profile picture of the author Teravel
    Originally Posted by sbucciarel View Post

    That might be true for some cases, but in this case, the seller has definitively responded by escalating the claim in the hopes that Paypal will refuse the refund based on it being a digital product.
    I have to agree with Mike Anthony. Unless you have mental or magical powers beyond human comprehension, there's no way to be certain of why the seller chose to do what they did.

    Originally Posted by thecableguy View Post

    So I submitted a ticket AND emailed him with no response (48 hours on a weekday the same day as the email).

    I then decided to file a dispute with Paypal, I only opened the dispute to get a response from him and didn't check the "Refund" option.
    First off, it's the beginning of the new year. Many businesses are backed up well beyond 48 hours. On Jan 5th, Thinkgeek was over 100 hours (Over 4 Days!) behind on their customer support. That includes Phone, Email, Fax, and even Live Chat!

    I only opened the dispute to get a response from him and didn't check the "Refund" option
    Second, the Paypal Dispute feature is NOT a good way to 'get in contact' with a vendor. The simple act of starting the dispute puts a mark on the vendors record. Since it gets you no closer to getting a refund, you damaged the vendors reputation because you believe you weren't contacted quickly enough.


    I would like to ask...

    How many emails did you send in an attempt to contact the vendor?

    Did your email contain anything that might get it filed as Spam or otherwise not land in the vendors Inbox?
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  • Profile picture of the author Beatinest
    I would love to know who it was.
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  • Profile picture of the author Doug
    Is it possible that the seller once aware of the refund request, then refunded the purchase, and likewise assumed that Paypal sent a refund notification simultaneously? In making this assumption the seller therefore decided not to send a personal notification, for any number of reasons because they thought it was done.

    I have a question though... did you delete the product from your PC since receiving the refund? I ask because this to me would be a normal thing to do.

    Doug
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      I still haven't received a response to the original ticket which is now going on close to a week.
      What kind of "response" do you expect? You requested a refund - you got the refund. Case closed.

      You submitted a ticket AND emailed the seller - then filed a Paypal dispute...all of that in 48 hrs.

      You don't KNOW when the refund was issued because you didn't know how to check on it. The seller had to manage your PP dispute - and then you started this thread where you finally realized you DID get the refund after all.

      Why would this seller want any further contact with you? Really?
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  • Profile picture of the author Psychic89
    Both arguments are right, I would say. But as a general rule of business, I would side with the OP. Remember: the customer is always right. The seller should have looked more into the needs of the buyer. Internet marketing is anyway mainly concerned with your lists and repeat buyers. I would have escalated the issue if I was the seller.
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  • Profile picture of the author Ghoster
    Seller didn't do anything wrong. They are just making sure they can tell their side of the story.
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    On the whole, you get what you pay for.

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  • Profile picture of the author absolutelee
    Wow! All of this effort that's put into this thread. You guys should consider working and making money. Sometimes buyers get antsy. Sometimes sellers get peeved. It happens. Move on. Guess what? We live in an imperfect world!
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    • Profile picture of the author Kay King
      All of this effort that's put into this thread. You guys should consider working and making money.
      Gotta chuckle - you read it, didn't you???

      I think it's useful in a thread like this to present the other (untold) side so new people think about it when they want to request a refund - and so sellers realize even experienced marketers can react negatively when money is involved.
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      • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
        Yes perhaps I did react negatively. This thread was started to point out the difference between a one time sale vs the lifetime value of customer, one that has been a repeat buyer to the seller. Not bash anyone in particular. At the time yes I was flabbergasted by what I thought was the sellers attitude. Not bothering to reply to a ticket just ignoring it and escalating it when a dispute was opened. Apparently through this thread I found out it was probably the "glitch" that automatically triggered the escalation.

        But I had to find that out the hard way. Basically the purchase transactions made with a credit card show up in Paypal, but not the refunds, as far as I know it doesn't show up ever. Thus the automatic email refund confirmation from Paypal doesn't get sent out.

        And yes the seller did respond correctly by issuing a refund, but in this case a reply to the ticket would have helped. Everything seemed normal until the "escalation". Seller ignores support ticket so a dispute is opened. Like I said it's a "glitch" in the system. The seller refunds the money, but a dispute can still be filed, which in turn sends out the automatic escalation.

        Discovering this (post #21) I guess the TITLE of the thread should have been changed to - Problem Solved (or something) at that point. Thus I reopened the ticket to the seller with - My mistake....and explained what had happened.

        But because no notification from Paypal or the seller that any action had taken place I had to find that out all on my own. Just by chance I noticed the refund in JVZoo that a refund had been issued (no it still doesn't show up in Paypal). Other than that since my credit card statements come out maybe several weeks later the only way I would know that the payment had been refunded is to pick up the phone and call the credit card company.

        Like I said in this situation communication from the seller that something was being done would have helped. I assumed as probably the seller did as well that an automatic email would be sent out by Paypal like when "cash" transactions are done.

        Yes, let's move on. This thread has sucked up to much time from people's lives
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        • Profile picture of the author Kay King
          since my credit card statements come out maybe several weeks later
          That didn't occur to me - I can go online 24/7 and see the exact balance and transactions on my credit cards. Any reversed transactions show up almost immediately even if not yet fully processed as a payment.

          It would have been smart of the seller (and a detail he missed) to quickly answer the original ticket with "refund has been issued". Not all sellers do that - but it's good customer service.
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          Saving one dog will not save the world....but will forever change the world for one dog.
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          • Profile picture of the author thecableguy
            Yeah I had no idea that anything had been going on. I assumed as probably the seller did that a refund would show up and an email receipt would be sent. My "sort of" apology was because of no response at all from the seller, even if to just acknowledge the misunderstanding. As a result he lost a paying customer. As a seller I'm sure you hold yourself to certain standards for your customers. And if you're like me when you're on the other side as a customer when that "benchmark" isn't returned I felt kind of cheated.

            Anyway I hope sellers are aware now probably some transactions could be caused by such a "glitch"., and remind their customers to be aware of this. Who knew before this that credit card purchases appear, but refunds do not. I'm sure the seller thought the same thing. To compound matters if I recall correctly either the subject line or in the bodycopy their was a mention that the seller escalated the claim. Let's get on with our lives shall we

            This kinda morphed into something else didn't it

            Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

            That didn't occur to me - I can go online 24/7 and see the exact balance and transactions on my credit cards. Any reversed transactions show up almost immediately even if not yet fully processed as a payment.

            It would have been smart of the seller (and a detail he missed) to quickly answer the original ticket with "refund has been issued". Not all sellers do that - but it's good customer service.
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      • Profile picture of the author absolutelee
        Originally Posted by Kay King View Post

        Gotta chuckle - you read it, didn't you???

        I think it's useful in a thread like this to present the other (untold) side so new people think about it when they want to request a refund - and so sellers realize even experienced marketers can react negatively when money is involved.
        I'm still amazed this thread has legs! Yep, important to tell both sides, and realize that everyone's a human being. More important to really run a business instead of just filling up space with ranting.
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  • Profile picture of the author ledara
    Does the sale page state refunds are accepted? Definitely dispute Paypal. Chances are, you will result in getting your money back.
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  • Profile picture of the author Curtis2011
    I see no problem with either response.

    In the past, I sold an ebook on one of my websites. Even though the sales page listed no refund policy at all, occasionally someone would use the website contact form and complain about the product or ask for a refund. In total maybe around 2% of my buyers would have a complaint.

    I gave every person who complained a refund, with no questions asked. Why? Because I simply didn't want to waste my time dealing with people who don't like my product. I also didn't want them to feel that I had ripped them off and then go to some internet forum and complain about my product, which could be bad for my website's success in general.

    Perhaps if my business had relied on repeat customers, I would have cared about them being satisfied with the product, and put extra effort into making sure every customer was happy. But that was not my business. Around 80% of my site's traffic was always brand new organic search engine visitors who had never seen the site before. Aside from Adsense ads, I only had one ebook for sale. There was no "future sales" prospects from any buying customer.

    In short, maybe the guy just didn't want to deal with you because it isn't worth his time.
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