29 replies
I'm working on an information product for people who have just started playing guitar.

I will be teaching a bunch of songs (not mine).

Briefly, it contains, or will contain :

* Chord diagrams (made by me) of all chords
* Photos of me playing every chord
* Videos of me playing every chord
* Videos of me playing every song in full (no singing)
* Links to youtube videos of each song (i.e. the official song video or other recordings)
* The lyrics of every song
* No sheet music

Are there any copyright issues that I should know about?
#copyright #question
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
      Originally Posted by TeKn1qu3z View Post

      I think it should be okay to do covers of songs
      If you mean my videos of me playing the songs, are you absolutely sure that's ok? Is there anywhere where I can confirm that? Then again, as I ask that, I'm thinking about all those youtube videos out there where people teach songs on guitar.

      What about the lyrics? I've just read that if it's fiction, it't not allowed, but if it's for teaching it's fine, but I just want to be totally sure.
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      • Profile picture of the author Steve B
        Originally Posted by Johnny1975 View Post

        . . . are you absolutely sure that's ok? Is there anywhere where I can confirm that?
        Seek competent legal counsel. Who cares what random people on a public forum are "absolutely sure" about? That's no defense if you're trying to convince a judge.


        Originally Posted by Johnny1975 View Post

        I'm thinking about all those youtube videos out there
        Thousands and thousands of people commit copyright infringement on YouTube every day of the week. The argument "well others do it" never justifies or excuses you from breaking the law.

        Originally Posted by Johnny1975 View Post

        I've just read that if it's fiction, it't not allowed, but if it's for teaching it's fine.
        If you read it on the Internet, it must be true!

        The safe solution is to seek competent legal advise from copyright attorney. You'll sleep much better at night.

        Steve
        Signature

        Steve Browne, online business strategies, tips, guidance, and resources
        SteveBrowneDirect

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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by TeKn1qu3z View Post

      I think it should be okay to do covers of songs
      I disagree.

      If you mean my videos of me playing the songs, are you absolutely sure that's ok? Is there anywhere where I can confirm that?
      Good gosh. It's not ok. Why would anything think that?

      Unfortunately, there is not only a lot of bad advice on this forum (along with some great tips), but every once in a while there is a post seemingly designed to intentionally cause someone harm. If you don't know the person, they have an anonymous name, anonymous location, fake avatar, no sig to check out, just skip their 'advice' no matter what it is.

      Check out the "person's" other posts on the forum. This "person" is mainly doing a bunch of one liners that add little, if anything, to the discussion. There's a lot of recent posts suddenly coming in for what may be an 'aged' Warrior account. I don't know what the new moderators do with accounts like that, but I'm guessing someone has already flagged it in the event a WSO is posted.

      If you're interested, the fake avatar used by this "person" is this real person, and I can virtually guarantee it is not them posting on the WF:

      http://www.nbc.com/the-office/about/...an-baumgartner


      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
        I believe that there's no copyright on chord sequences. So, what if I taught the songs, but didn't name them? And then, at the end, I could just give links to the youtube videos of the originals, and say something like "sounds familiar?"
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        I disagree.

        Good gosh. It's not ok. Why would anything think that?
        .
        Is there any way that I could effectively teach a song without breaching copyright?

        I know that there's no copyright on chord progressions. So I know that I can teach individual chords and chord progressions. I don't know if I could teach the progressions in the same order that they appear in the song (could I?)

        What if I don't refer to the song by title at all? What if I have a video of me playing the chord progressions in order, but just as an exercise?
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  • Profile picture of the author Alexa Smith
    Banned
    Originally Posted by Johnny1975 View Post

    * The lyrics of every song
    I'm no copyright lawyer, but unless they're all "public domain" (?) that's surely going to involve extensively quoting copyright material, Johnny? You'd want permission, in each case, I'd think, and some kind of "licence" to publish each, just as authors of books need, to quote song lyrics?

    .
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  • Profile picture of the author Life Naturally
    Copyright law is very complex and open to a lot of interpretation. It also depends on the action taken by the person who's copyright you have violated. I would highly suggest spending a few dollars and talking to an experienced copyright lawyer before you proceed. Just my 2 cents.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Batt
    Banned
    There's no copyright on chord sequences but there is copyright on the melody so you would be breaching copyright by teaching them. That's not to say you'll get caught but it's risky. If you want to make sure you don't get caught out then you can buy the rights to the song on https://songclearance.com, it's $15 per song and you pay a royalty per sale.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
      Originally Posted by Richard Batt View Post

      There's no copyright on chord sequences but there is copyright on the melody so you would be breaching copyright by teaching them. That's not to say you'll get caught but it's risky. If you want to make sure you don't get caught out then you can buy the rights to the song on https://songclearance.com, it's $15 per song and you pay a royalty per sale.
      I wouldn't be teaching the melody. I would just be teaching the chords in the song and playing the song without singing or any melody. Just the chords.

      For example :

      Stand By Me (Ben E. King) :

      Intro : A F#min D Edom7
      Verse : A F#min D Edom7 X2
      Chorus : A F#min D Edom7
      Verse
      Chorus
      Verse
      Chorus X2 then fade

      I'd have a video of me playing all of that (no singing), and I'd show the chords to be played (no sheet music, just diagrams and photos of me holding down the chords), along with the lyrics so that they know exactly when to change chords.
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    • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
      Originally Posted by Richard Batt View Post

      There's no copyright on chord sequences
      Copyright infringement lawsuit based on chord sequences:

      Led Zeppelin Sued Over 'Stairway To Heaven' Guitar Line : The Two-Way : NPR


      .
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        Copyright infringement lawsuit based on chord sequences:

        Led Zeppelin Sued Over 'Stairway To Heaven' Guitar Line : The Two-Way : NPR


        .
        I think the issue there is that the notes and rhythm of the melody are similar. Personally I don't think there should be an issue in that particular case. I think it's far fetched to say that it's a breach. But if there's an issue, it's not the chords themselves or the order of them. There's no copyright on chord sequences, otherwise every song that contained 12 bar blues would be in trouble.
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        • Profile picture of the author kindsvater
          Originally Posted by Johnny1975 View Post

          I think the issue there is ....
          Stop. How many times on this thread has someone said "I think ...." It does not matter what you think. It just doesn't reflect on you personally. I think a lot of laws are wrong, but that opinion does not matter when it comes to what the law is for numerous legal issues raised in this thread.

          Fact is copyright law is complex. It can be counterintuitive. It is rarely black and white. It is expensive to litigate.

          When non-lawyers come here and start making statements such as go ahead and publicly cover a song for profit and you start believing that malarkey, you get my response. When someone makes a blanket statement copyright does not cover chords you'll get a reference to a much publicized lawsuit showing otherwise. Instead of speculating about what you think the issue is ... go read the lawsuit.

          Keep in mind you started this thread by referring to a number of things you are doing in connection with songs you admittedly do not own, such as playing each song and providing the lyrics.

          The fact you even questioned whether copyright issues may exist is a red flag. Good luck with your product.

          .
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          • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
            Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

            Stop. How many times on this thread has someone said "I think ...." It does not matter what you think. It just doesn't reflect on you personally. I think a lot of laws are wrong, but that opinion does not matter when it comes to what the law is for numerous legal issues raised in this thread.

            Fact is copyright law is complex. It can be counterintuitive. It is rarely black and white. It is expensive to litigate.

            When non-lawyers come here and start making statements such as go ahead and publicly cover a song for profit and you start believing that malarkey, you get my response. When someone makes a blanket statement copyright does not cover chords you'll get a reference to a much publicized lawsuit showing otherwise. Instead of speculating about what you think the issue is ... go read the lawsuit.

            Keep in mind you started this thread by referring to a number of things you are doing in connection with songs you admittedly do not own, such as playing each song and providing the lyrics.

            The fact you even questioned whether copyright issues may exist is a red flag. Good luck with your product.

            .
            There's a chord progression, which is I VImin IV V, known as the 50s chord progression, which was used a lot in the 50s, hence the name. In other words it was used so much that it is named after the decade in which it was used over and over again, that's how common it was. That's an example of a chord sequence being used a lot. There's also 12 bar blues, one of the most common ones, and a staple of guitarists and bands everywhere. And there are many more. When I started searching for songs to use, I found many that used the same chords.

            Does that mean that if you and I both write songs that use the same chords, in the same order, that whoever wrote theirs last can't be in breach of copyright? No, but if there's a breach, it would be due to an overall similarity that makes it obvious that one person copied another. The fact that the chords are the same could play a part in it, but in itself, using the same chords wouldn't be an issue.

            Your link doesn't prove or show that chord sequences are covered by copyright. It shows a case where copyright was considered to have been breached. But the issue wasn't the chords themselves. Also I have never believed nor do I now believe that it's ok for me to perform a cover version of somebody else's song.

            Not everything is subject to copyright, otherwise it would seriously restrict most artists, writers, poets etc. It wouldn't serve anyone, as creativity is often built on the efforts of others. Chord sequences in themselves have no copyright. The same applies to titles, otherwise one of these two could have sued the other :

            David Bowie - Absolute Beginners :
            The Jam : Absolute Beginners :
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      • Profile picture of the author Richard Batt
        Banned
        Originally Posted by kindsvater View Post

        Copyright infringement lawsuit based on chord sequences:

        Led Zeppelin Sued Over 'Stairway To Heaven' Guitar Line : The Two-Way : NPR


        .
        That's me told. When it comes to copyright you're best seeking advice from a professional.

        Personally I'd licence the songs, your idea with YouTube isn't bad but you'd still be best off speaking to someone with professional experience to cover yourself. Also, a big problem with using YouTube is that in certain parts of the world YouTube don't have the rights to stream music owned by certain publishers so that might mean that people living in certain parts of the world wouldn't be able to use your product properly.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Batt
    Banned
    When you perform the song you'd be breaching the copyright regardless of whether you were singing or not. You'd be performing the melody and that's why you'd be best off buying the licence to make sure you didn't run in to any issues.
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Batt
    Banned
    You could teach all of the chords I and link them to a video of the song like you said and then you wouldn't be breaching any copyright.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
      Originally Posted by Richard Batt View Post

      You could teach all of the chords I and link them to a video of the song like you said and then you wouldn't be breaching any copyright.
      I would not be performing the melody at all. I would only be playing through the chords of the song. I would not be singing or playing lead.

      Let me see if I understand. Are you saying that out of these 2...

      1) I play the whole song, but just the chords
      2) I teach the chords contained in the song, and maybe the individual sequences within every section of the song, but not everything all together

      ...that 2) is the only way to do it?
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      • Profile picture of the author Cali16
        Johnny, you're asking legal questions that should only be answered by an attorney who's very familiar with copyright law. For the record, Brian Kindsvater (who responded in this thread just a few posts above) IS an attorney; I'd recommend paying attention to his posts.
        Signature
        If you don't face your fears, the only thing you'll ever see is what's in your comfort zone. ~Anne McClain, astronaut
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Batt
    Banned
    To be sticking to the copyright laws you would need to just teach the chords contained in the song and link to a video of the original song to put it all together. Which wouldn't make for a great product. How many songs would you be teaching? Is licencing the song a complete no-go for you?
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
      Originally Posted by Richard Batt View Post

      To be sticking to the copyright laws you would need to just teach the chords contained in the song and link to a video of the original song to put it all together. Which wouldn't make for a great product. How many songs would you be teaching? Is licencing the song a complete no-go for you?
      Well I wouldn't just want to teach people how to play the chords. I would also want to teach all of the chord progressions that occur in the song.

      Yes, teaching a bunch of chords and then linking to a youtube video and saying "go ahead and learn that song, it's ok, you already know all the chords" wouldn't be very good. That's why I want to teach the progressions too, and then present those progressions in order.

      The number of songs that I want to do an in depth tuition of is 12. But each song lesson will mention 2 other songs that contain many of the same chords. For example :

      * One Of Us (Joan Osborne)
      PLUS :
      * Spirit in the Sky (Dr and the Medics)
      * Stand By Me (Ben E. king)

      ...because the last 2 songs contain many of the same chords. Multiply all of that by 12 and it's 12 + 24 = 36. But I'd only do an in depth tuition of 12 songs.

      So I will do an in depth tuition of One Of Us, plus an overview of the other two. The purpose of having 2 extra songs per lesson is to let the reader know that by knowing one song, it's not a huge leap to learning others.

      I want to make this a simple process, with no issues to worry about, that's why I'd like to find a way to just get on with it without worrying about copyright.
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      • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
        I have an idea that might solve the problem.

        I could take 3 songs that contain many of the same chords, and then teach all of the chords contained in all 3 songs, but in a random order.

        Then I could teach all the chord sequences contained in all 3 songs, but in random order. i.e. I could teach the intro to song 1, the chorus to song 3, then the verse to song 2, etc etc.

        Then, as an exercise, I could string together chord sequences, randomly. i.e. the verse to song 3 followed by the intro to song 1.

        Then, as an example of what they should now be able to play based on all the exercises, I could link to the youtube videos of the 3 songs, as well as 3rd party links showing the lyrics and chords. And I could say go ahead and learn those songs, you will find it very easy based on what we've just covered.

        Then I could do the same again with 3 other songs. And so on.

        Would that work?
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Batt
    Banned
    If there's an attorney on the thread i'd listen to him. I'm only familiar with the licencing laws through personal experience with them.
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  • Profile picture of the author onSubie
    Have you considered using songs that are in the public domain?

    There are many folk songs and traditional songs that are familiar to everyone and suitable for guitar that are in the public domain.

    Songs like "Red River Valley", for example.

    Folk Blues | Best Public Domain Music Downloads at Public Domain 4U

    Public Domain Music
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  • Profile picture of the author Richard Batt
    Banned
    Your idea could work because you'd be creating your own song. But in terms of creating a good product for the user (and a product closer to the one you originally imagined) I think the best idea would be to use songs in the public domain.
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    • Profile picture of the author Johnny1975
      Originally Posted by Richard Batt View Post

      Your idea could work because you'd be creating your own song. But in terms of creating a good product for the user (and a product closer to the one you originally imagined) I think the best idea would be to use songs in the public domain.
      Just to be clear, when I said teach things in random order, I didn't mean string them together, I just meant teach them one by one, separately, in random order.

      My product contains 36 songs, 6 in one key, 6 in another, and so on. in other words, 6 keys, with 6 songs in each.

      The reason for that is because it's very easy to teach a bunch of songs (or the components of them) together because a lot of chords will be repeated, making it easier to take in all the information. It's easier to learn 6 songs when they share many chords in common.

      Because of this, it has taken me a long time to find 6 songs in each of the keys. Not to mention that since it's for beginners, I want to make the chords easy, so I've had to find only songs that contain fairly easy chords. In other words the process of finding suitable songs has been lengthy.

      I don't mind using public domain songs, I've got no problem in principle. The difficulty however is that I'll have to start all over again, and since I would be limited to public domain stuff, it's going to be much harder.

      And that's why I'm trying to come up with sneaky and clever ways to get round the copyright issue, while still effectively teaching the songs.


      Here's another idea I had. I can teach all the components of all the songs (chords and sequences), and then create an exercise where they get to choose and string together a bunch of sequences, 1 from column 1, one from column 2, one from column 3. But I'll make it so that the only combination that sounds any good is one that constitutes the majority of one of the songs (i.e. intro, verse, chorus of a song). And so on.

      Then at the end I'll link to the youtube videos, and do a tuition of say a verse or chorus (I believe excerpts are acceptable under fair use), and then when they watch the video they'll find that they've covered everything already. I could even link to a site that shows all the chords and lyrics. Result : Their ability to play all the songs becomes an "unexpected" revelation. AKA I taught them the songs by stealth. With the added bonus of making the course a little bit interactive (when they choose which sequences to string together).
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  • Profile picture of the author ronyoung
    Banned
    All songs can be licensed for use but, if you use them with out the correct licensing you can be sued for copyright violations. Theres sites that will do it for you for a fee
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  • Profile picture of the author yakim1
    I think if you were to purchase the sheet music for guitar for each song you want to play should give you rights you need to play each piece without any copy write problems.

    Best regards,
    Steve Yakim
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  • Profile picture of the author onSubie
    Wait- are you saying many different songs can be made from the same basic chord structure and progression?

    That sounds crazy! Or... Awesome....

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